Ep. 262: Ryan Beatty | How to Make It in Music Without Losing Yourself

Welcome to And The Writer is I'm your host Ross Gollum. This 8 takes 10 years to make an overnight success, while today's guest has put in the work and earned his place as one of the industry's best new artists. What started as a teenage YouTube phenomenon evolved into one of the most promising careers in music. Not to mention, he's written with royalty like Beyoncé, Tyler the creator, Miley Cyrus, and Brock Hampton, all the way from California. He's built a career rooted in honesty over hype, and The Writer is Ryan Beatty. That's beautiful. Honesty over hype. It's delicious. You can feel that. I will. You're known as a real taste maker. Am I? I think so. Cool. You always write with stuff before it's cool, and you kind of, you know, I mean, you yourself are cool before you were cool. So that's a taste maker. Well, look, like you said, it's taken a long time to get here. And kind of maybe awkward at first to get here. My early career was, looks very different than how it looks now, but I think all of that was important for me to get here now. Do you know what I mean? Like, is there there there? Like where is starting off way too deep? Oh, hold on. Let's get there. Let's get there. All right. Well, fine. I think I'm here now. All right. Yeah. Where do you want to go? Oof. Who knows. Who knows? I mean, I guess I don't have a specific place in mind. What's the dream place for you to play? For a while, it was the Greek, and I'm playing the Greek. So now, I guess the Hollywood bowl? The Greek is the best venue in LA. The Greek is so cool. Yeah. I'm very excited for that. I mean, Hollywood bowl is cool. But, yeah. Of course. It's kind of like the larger version of it. Yeah. I played the Ford. Have you been to the Ford before? That's a cool idea. So the Ford feels like sort of like, if, you know, we're talking about Pokemon Evolutions, right? It's like the Ford's like, you know, the starter. I feel like the Greek is like that middle and then, probably bowl. I'll kind of remind me of each other. Are you into Pokemon? Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? I grew up obsessed with Pokemon. Really? Did you collect cards and stuff? I did, yeah. Do you still have any? I probably do somewhere in archives in my parents' garage. I feel like people would be surprised by like my interest in that way, because I'm not very open about my personal life with my music. I actually am. Music is very personal, but personality-wise, like I'm learning how to open up a bit more with that, because ultimately, it's what makes me feel more comfortable. It feels scary sometimes to talk about like my personal life in some ways, like outside of music. Oh, man, how much time do you have? There's just probably so many reasons. A lot of it has to do with maybe growing up. Even with music, I felt a little bit embarrassed by singing, by loving to sing, because I was made fun of it for liking it a lot growing up. Early on, I had this idea that I was to be sort of ashamed by the things that I enjoy, and led to a lot of compartmentalizing, feeling a bit fractured, because I was also a skateboarder at the time. I was a big skater, so I'd be doing musical theater in the summer, and when my friends would want to skate, I wouldn't be telling them like, "Oh, I can't, because I'm doing theater." I kept it really separate, because I was really shy about it. The two could never exist at the same time. What I talked about therapy, but I'm really learning to still be all parts of myself, and one, and loving that, and living in it, constantly searching for that freedom, because I refuse to continue just being one thing and showing one thing. It's not fun, it's suffocating. Yeah, it takes a confidence when I was in high school, and I remember opening night of R-Town was the state playoff game for hockey, and I was like, "Well, I'm in theater, I'm a theater kid." I got to go do this, and I missed, say, and I never, from that point on, I could never go back to that hockey team. They just, it was not appreciated, and I was a theater kid, and it was this moment of even just that, let alone the other parts to that. It's just this idea, trying to follow your heart and whatever that is, and be like, I like this. And it's okay to be multifaceted and unique in your loves of life. I think that's just like everyone's mission in life, it's just continue to like find the core of you and not be afraid of what that really looks like. At least for me, that's what I'm constantly trying to do, and I think that you can probably hear the music as well, you know? Yeah, no question. When I think of drag music, I think it's going back, it's like this high energy, like dancing, it's like, it's a party, like a lot of it. I mean, or it's like really this, you know, these big ballots, or whatever the thing is. It's really bombastic music, it feels like it's a show, you know? Is there a part of you that has wanted to make music that your brother could perform, you know, could perform? No, I mean, it's totally separate, you know what I mean? I'd be fun to see that, but at the same time, you know, it's a different art form. When you're little and you're doing, you know, musical theater stuff, is that the introduction to sort of music in your family? Maybe as a performer, but music, no, I mean, music was a big part of my life, because of, you know, my dad had pretty good taste, has pretty good taste. Like what? Like, I listened to a lot of James Taylor, I feel like that was like a big staple, John Denver as well. That all makes sense on that, that's interesting, yeah. It's funny, too, because that sort of formative music for me, and then as I got older, I kind of didn't touch back on it until like I would say in the last like six years or so, where like, I don't know, it's so funny how you can grow up and like leave some things behind and they all return back to you at some point in life and you're like, oh, like, this is actually like really deeply part of the fabric of who I am. And it's fun to like see that return in some ways. It's cool to reference those two, because that's an era, you know, listening to the new album which has a lot of Americana and country influence in it and this wide variety of genre. And when you think of what James Taylor was doing and what John Denver were doing, they were these crossover artists, you know, this is James Taylor's Fulky, but he was pop. He was, he had pop hits, but he was Fulky, but he wasn't, but he was. And then in retrospect, you're like, it's just James Taylor. And John Denver is the same thing as clearly his country, but it's not. He had pop hits, you know, those are real crossover songs. And if you're saying, you know, showing that those things really influenced, you know, where you are now as a musician makes a lot of sense. When people ask you what genre are you, does it drive you nuts? Yeah. Are you that you're hard to place in a genre? No. I actually think that, I mean, that's freedom, you know, artistic freedom in a way. It's like, I have to chase what excites me and what feels real to me. And honestly, like, I can't boil that down to one genre. And it's not like I'm trying to find places to land. It's just like whatever I chase, I end up chasing. I always want to be able to surprise myself in that way, but ultimately, it's not surprising to me because it's what I love. It's the music I love and what I'm drawn to. So. But it takes a, you know, you're a great singer. You could sing a lot of things and it'd be good. What makes you special is your artistry and being able to direct that conversation because most people who sing really well and may like a lot of music and may want to go into a certain direction, don't really have that conviction of what, where they want to go right now. You know, well, I was going to say, like, the people you surround yourself with are excellent musicians, you know, Ethan and whatnot. We can get to some of your collaborators. When you walk into a room, how do you approach a session? Well, I try not to overthink it, you know, because I think there's been so many times especially when I was younger, but I've walked in and I'm like, I'm going to be so prepared today. And I'm going to be so in whatever space that is that exists and it's like, nameless, it's just that creative space that you go to when you're like really locked in, you know, just like the best feeling ever. I used to think that I could trick myself into it. And I've learned that there's no tricks for me, like it just, some days I go in and I'm like so tired and I'm like, I don't know if I can make anything today. I feel exhausted physically and just, I don't, I don't think I put two words together. And then one thing hits me whether it's a melody or a chord that's being played and then something beautiful happens where I'm like, oh, it's right there. I could see it clearly. I know exactly what I want to say or there are times where I go in and I'm like, I have an idea and then it's just, you feel like you're wrestling with something that doesn't need to be wrestled with. And then, you know, you don't end up making a song. And it's also important to not be frustrated on those days because, you know, many times I've left the studio and been like, I don't think I'm ever going to write another song again. I don't think I have any other songs to give. Like, can you run out of words? Can you run out of ideas? Like, feels like that sometimes. It feels like that, especially at the end of writing in an album where I'm like, oh, I've given everything I can. What else could there be? There's always something. That's the moment when you walk in because the label says that we need a deluxe single and you're like, what? I just gave you the thing and then I'll send you to go back in the, you know, then you show up to play. I just finished. Yeah. I don't want to do this. I can't speak for everybody, but for me, like, I feel like I've really, you know, that term like teach people how to treat you. I feel like in music, there's times where I've been incredibly stubborn, like with my work. I think it's important as an artist to be a bit stubborn because, you know, you know, what's good for you. You know, it feels good. Sometimes I've been stubborn in the totally, totally wrong ways. And it's just, you know, anxiety appearing as me being, like, protecting myself somehow, taking a long time to learn, like, when to kind of be like, to really, you know, hold my ground, say no. And the time to be like, okay, let me listen to the people around me. But I will say that nothing is ever asked of me that feels like super not true to me because I think I've established what I will do and what I won't do. So I feel a lot of respect with the people that surround me, that work with me because they accept me as the artist as I am. And I'm really grateful for that because I know that's not the case for a lot of artists, especially younger artists, you know, people really want the chance that's given to them and they see it. You know, I remember when I was really young and I thought that like, here's my shot. Oh, my God. Totally flopped. Totally failed. And I was like, oh, I don't think I'll ever get one of those again. It just takes a lot of time, you know, and to not see things as life or death as an artist. That initial flop is essential for a human. It is. And when you see the artist who succeeds on that first try and you see them develop as a human, it is hard because the ego, when you first get that first record deal and it's like, here, this album's coming out, it's going to be a smash. If it's a smash, then the next time you have a flop, you are going to be massively ill-prepared for it. You're chasing the dragon, you know, and yeah, and then at some point you have to ask yourself, like, what am I doing this for? Because it feels good to, you know, I'm actually grateful I've never had a hit record before. Like, because I feel like that sometimes can feel, not to say I wouldn't love that, you know, it'd be great. I just feel like that can create an anxiety, you know, it's funny, it seems like success because it is success in a numerical way. But what's important to me is learning what success actually feels like versus what it looks like. That is a big facade that you have to see through. What is success here? I think success is being able to play a show at the Greek and do it the way that I want to do it, even if it's taken this long, you know, whatever, and get to make records that I love to make, get to work with artists and producers and the musicians, the musicianship that I'm surrounded by is like, top tier, you know what I mean? I get to work with people that are the best at what they do, like that success, you know? And there's many other examples there too, but if a song becomes a smash, smash, how does that change who you are as an artist now? Something, okay, I don't know because it hasn't happened, so who's to say, I can't predict the future, but something I consistently try and overcome is the idea of perception, the perception of me as an artist. I think that when more eyes are on you, the more pressure it is to rise to the level that people expect from you, you know, and you see it with pop stars all the time where there are new era, they're like, you feel that pressure build up of like, okay, we're going to tease it perfectly, we're going to drop the song and it has to be number one on Billboard, or because the last time I did it, it was number one. So, you know, and if it doesn't reach that point, then the narrative is going to be, not as good as the last time, or you know what I mean, that is a scary game to play. Some people do it really well and then some people let it be what drives them. And I think ultimately that is putting the pen into listener's hand, you know what I mean, that's putting the so much power in the perception of you rather than making things from passion, making things from realness, because you love it. And yes, both can exist at the same time. But you have to know the game you're playing there because it's a scary game. People are so reactionary these days, you know. You know, there's a liberation, I think, in respecting your audience and to give them an album they weren't expecting, something that you believe in that is different, so they have to go on that journey, the expectation of having to have number one songs that's wild. Yeah, it is. So let's go back, we're, you know, you were saying you were raised in a house where there's, you know, James Taylor and there's Stevie Wonder and there's John Denver. When do you first think that you can write a song? I remember writing a song when I was in maybe like fifth grade. How does it go? I'm not going to do that for you. Oh my god, given you way too much right now, maybe I'll feel comfortable answering that in a second. Let me just say this. Okay, what's a call? Classic. Dad drowned. It's actually called phantom and it's the first song on this new record, no, I was getting imagined. Okay, that'd be so wild. No. Thank you. No, I'm just kidding. That's also a song. Yes, I know. Yeah. I'm with you when I'm sick. Okay. Yeah. So for a long time, I knew I was a good singer when I was young. Singing was the first thing I felt great at, you know, you always, I think like in life, you find that one thing that like feel special to you. It was singing for me. And when I started doing music when I was like 15, I had an idea of the kind of artist I wanted to be. I knew I wanted it to feel that's so young, man. I know. I know. I know. It's crazy. That is so young. A top of my life. I'm 30 years old right now. Would you have that conversation, you know, this idea of walking into a session and be like, this is what I want to sound like, started basically at 15, whether you knew that's what you wanted or not. But to say like at 15, you had an idea of what you wanted to sound like or what kind of maybe, what kind of artist you want to be, that's a wild statement. So remember when I said I was stubborn. So when I was young, the word no came from my mouth and a million times more than yes. And I think early on when I was first working with the people I was working with at that time, it was, why don't you do this? I was like, no, I knew what I did not like. I didn't maybe have no vocabulary for what I wanted because I was 15 years old or who I was as an artist fully because I was 15 years old. You know what I mean? And so I can meet people at all that wanted to work with you at that age. Well, I was, you know, I posted videos on YouTube. I was like doing covers and stuff and it was like doing, well, yeah, that started that way. Yeah. So yeah, it was a trip to like publicly try things and, and. I figured myself out, didn't know who I was as a person yet, yeah. But back to the question about being a songwriter, at the time, I didn't feel smart enough. I didn't think I could be a songwriter because I felt like it didn't get good grades in school. I didn't, I hated, I didn't hate writing, but I just didn't like doing English class. All of that, I was just like, I didn't feel intelligent enough. The idea of that. So, but I knew that I wanted to be a songwriter. I didn't really trust my own voice, though, for a long time. - You're on written voice? - Yeah. And then I think when I, a little bit before I wrote my first album, I could tell like my passion as a songwriter had grown a lot. I also started to feel like I was building my own language for it, which felt exciting. You know that exhilarating feeling when you're writing, and you're like, oh, like, like, this is me, and I feel like no one else can say this right now because it's coming from me. It's not what sounds like this person or that person. And maybe it's not great, but it feels exciting to me. And then when I started working on my first record, "Boy in Jeans," I mean, that was it for me. That was when I fell in love with songwriting. And it came so quick. Like, I wrote that album in basically a month, and just off pure excitement and the-- - That's a decade after your-- - Yeah. - You started, you know, your first song. - Yeah, it was-- - Summer of 2017, so yeah, I was like, you know, six years, but it was 21 at the time. No, 20, I was about to turn 21. It was summer, I was 20 years old, and-- - Yeah. - So who heard any of these-- - Sorry, Timeline. - I haven't heard any of these songs from the fifth grade you to 21-year-old you. - Who heard those songs? - Yeah. - I mean, some of them existed, you know? - I had heard some of those. - But like, when was the first time you played something for your parents? Like, was it that song? Were you like, "Hey, I wrote a song?" - Yeah, I mean, at the time I had-- - Were they always supportive of this? - They were, yeah. - Yeah, that's great. - They were supportive of me, and really appreciative of that, you know, because I was, you know, young and had a dream, and it's crazy to like, let your kid pursue it, and they did the best they could. And, yeah, really supported me, so. - So tell me from fifth grade to 14, when you start posting on YouTube. You're doing, is that when you were saying you kind of learned who you were as a performer from musical theater? - Yeah, just around that time? - Yeah, I mean, even earlier than that, like, being on stage was really fun. - You were some of the musicals during it. (laughing) - Let's see, I was in this one, it was called 13. - Oh yeah, it's the Jason Robert Brown. - Jason Robert Brown, and, oh my God, that was when I really fell in love with performing. - Like Ariana Grande's like-- - Okay, let me tell you something. - Yeah. - I remember, this was like-- - He's gonna have that podcast by the way. - Would you say? - Robert Brown's on this podcast. - Incredible. - About that. - Sorry, keep going. - No, so, Ariana, I remember choosing that musical, and I was, you know, I remember looking up some of the performances. This was like 2010 of the cast, 'cause I think it had just been on Broadway. So like, we were kind of early on in doing the local productions of it all. And I remember seeing a video of the whole cast singing one of the songs, and she stuck out to me. I remember hearing her voice and being like, that girl's voice is insane. Like, I was blown away by her. And then, like, a year later, she had started posting videos also. And I think she was also on that show at the same time. And it's just insane to see, you know, not to be like, I was there early on, but like, you know, I knew her from that musical. And then, like, seeing her career now, I mean, like, she's incredible. She is incredible. She saw her in New York recently. I went to her show. Amazing. Yeah, she's a legend. They're a lovely person. So, you were in '13. What else were you? I was. I was also in. Were these professions or, like, local theaters? Community theaters, yeah. Oh my God, some of these are so embarrassing. I mean, I was in, you know, I was in my buddy, and this is a good one. I mean, no, this is by my buddy's a classic. Okay, come on. Yeah, I was, I was in mostly classics. It was definitely not. I was not in mostly classics. So there was an elementary school. I was, I was in high school musical. Oh, yeah. And I played the character Ryan, but you know. And then a year later, I was in the local production of high school musical, too. Oh, yeah. And I played the character Ryan. So, yeah, I was, you know, big, big role for me. Your resume, your theater resume is like, this feels great up. I mean, it's a super method. You're right. Yeah. Today you are Ryan. Okay, Ryan, Res, Ryan. Yeah. I was in the music man. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Who were you in that? I played Winthrop. Oh. Oh, well, the wealth. Far from the wagon. Yeah, exactly. I had to, you know, do the list but all. I think I had like kind of a natural list but that probably. I feel like now if you did the production, you'd have to probably like, maybe play a little bit with, that feels pretty archaic to have a lead character with that. You know, because they talk about the list so much, it feels like a speech impediment is something that isn't, you know, totally. Wiredly. Yeah, no, I don't know if I would, that's a role. Maybe I, I don't think I would reprise. Yeah. At this age, I would say. We were, we were talking about that song from that musical, that, you know, that stands for pool. That's it with that right here in, what? Right here in Riversidee. Yeah. That there's no rhyming in that song. That's amazing. That's like almost like a rap. It's like almost a rap. Oh, but there's no rhyming in that song. The music band is really bars. Yeah. Okay. So you're in music band. There you go. Did you, were you going to be on Broadway? Was that ever? Was that ever? One of those things where, you know, as a child, you're like, that would be so cool someday. But funny enough, I've recently had a song in a Broadway production, which was really cool. Which one? It's called Man of the House. And I did that with Jack Antenov. That's right. They originally wrote the Romeo and Juliet. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. We originally wrote that just together for, just for our, like we just had a session together. It was like 2019, a song like hung around for a long time and then I was boarding a plane from New Orleans and I was in the airport and he called me and I'm like, what's up? And he's like, hey, I'm doing the music for this production for Romeo and Juliet. We'd love to use this. And I was like, dude, hell yeah. So that was a little bit of like a, you know, childhood dream to be part of a production in some way. I mean, it's awesome. Yeah. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. 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Variations is available to try now in splices, sounds, plugin, check it out. Thank you for sponsoring. A lot of the people who listen to the podcast or people who want to get to where you are, what's advice you give to a kid that is fielding requests from people because they're succeeding on YouTube and on Instagram and people are hitting them up saying hey come and do this album. I would say that remember what's special to you and hold onto it really tightly and protect that. Protect that more than anything like, remember how fragile it is to you, believe that it's gradual. Believe that it's special. And hone in on that. I think it's interesting. It's like with where we are now in music and culture and, you know, everything is found through an algorithm. It's important for people to, things can happen really fast, but slow down as much as you can too. Like if you are, if you're great at what you do, even if right now, like something you post or a song you share, like goes, you know, viral, which is a word that I hate saying. Don't let that be the thing that fuels you. Like believe in the thing that you're actually passionate about. And take your time. Take your time. Take your time. Because that's not necessarily asked of artists these days, I think. That's not about taking your time. There's no human. There's very little humanity. And the, when the people who are in a position to ask artists or demand artists to act a certain way, it'd be antithetical to their business and their business model. Yeah. I mean, I'm well aware that this is a business, but I'm also well aware that this is my life. You know? And I've been in conflict at times with that, you know, of what could work, but remembering my human in it, you know, me, this is all my eggs in the basket. So when did you, when did you come to that realization that in the process of becoming a professional musician off after YouTube, did you realize, you know, I, boy in jeans makes sense, but there's a lot of music between, you know, YouTube and boy in jeans. Yeah. So when in that process, did you realize how you got to, you got to pull the reins on this? You got to slow up. And I need to, I need to go back to like who I am. Yeah. I was around 18 years old and I had a moment with myself where I was like, if I'm going to continue to do this, then I have to do this, like my way, or I have to like, listen to my heart. And I still did music. I still would do shows at times just because it was like, I was passionate about it. And things would come up and I'd be like, sure, like I'll show up and do it. But I wouldn't say like things started getting serious until that first record, boy in jeans. And that, that was the moment where I really was like, okay, I have now, like nothing to lose. Like I've lost everything that I thought I needed to continue. Like I wasn't doing the YouTube thing anymore. I was just like, they're at this point. Like I, this is just because I'm passionate about it. So to see the success that that album got and the sort of response that that album had, it felt like I had proven to myself that trusting myself was the most important thing. And that has proven itself again and again and it's like, if that again, it's like, if that's the thing I could tell other young artists to believe in, it's like, just trust yourself. I mean, that's your fingerprint. You know, as an artist, is that, that, that confidence of this is me is, is everything. Your story is interesting because you've succeeded so well at writing for other people and with other people. How do you get involved in Brockhampton? I became friends with Ian. I'd heard his record. We had worked with a similar producer, the same producer that produced his album, American Boyfriend. I had worked with and he had posted the record. I listened to it and I was like, so moved by it. It was cool to see like another queer artist like just saying, speaking their heart unabashedly, like really being honest in the music. So we became friends and they, I think Brockhampton already been a thing, but they had started just started putting out the first saturation. And it was so crazy to see them blow up the way they did. And it was, I mean, to be involved in any way was really cool because it started off as a friendship between me and Ian. And then at one point he was like, you should try some vocals on this. I was really shy. I was really shy because I never wanted to feel like I was including myself or like trying to jump into a space that I wasn't invited in, but felt invited to. So I did it. And right then and there I realized like how much I had grown as an artist, just like off, off of what was happening in the room and like the instincts that I had as well. Like it felt like a really important time for me. And it gave me a lot of confidence. You know, I remember when bleach came out and seeing the response of that song. I was like, it felt so cool. It was cool to be part of something that also felt cool. I was a new thing for me. Walk me through the day that you wrote bleach. Well, yeah. So it was like a summer 2017. I wanna say like July. I'm guessing July. It was in North Hollywood. I had also started working on my album Boyne Jeans at the time. Literally the neighborhood, one neighborhood away. It was like could walk there basically. And Ian was in there. Vermil was in there. And I mean, the track was already so gorgeous. Like I would love the idea. Ian mentioned like Lauren Hill melodies. And we started seeing this melody together. And that was what we were doing a lot of times. We were like trying to channel maybe like artists like with with sugar. I was like, you know, I was thinking of Sisa. I was like, what would Sisa sing right here? You know, I was later on like 2019. But it's fun. It was fun to do that a little bit. Like trick your mind a little bit to like, you know, have fun with it. Take yourself out of it a little bit. And then when we recorded bleach and then hearing the vocals pitched down like, I just think that song was special. Was that your first experience really writing with artists outside of your, yeah, yourself? Did you find that addicting? Do you enjoy that? I do enjoy it. I don't do it as much as maybe people think. But I, yeah, it's between the, you know, obviously the Beyonce stuff and the, and Miley and then, and then, you know, the Jack Antonov story. And so it seems like you do it more than, then I think you do. It's maybe just. Let me tell you that. It's incredible. Well, I was just going to say this. I've never written, like, I've never pitched songs or like written songs and like see like, oh, maybe this will end up something. It's like everything I do, I try and make it feel very intentional. And regardless of the artist's use it or not, but I will say that like, I don't, I've never shown up to just like, hopefully get a cut on something. I show up because I feel like I have something to say. And I only say things when I think it's worth saying, we're singing. And I think that's why every time I've set out to write for another artist, it's connected because I give it the same love I would give for my own music, even if it is genre different or, you know, that's a lot of emotional gift. Oh, thanks. I mean, just in that, that sounds exhausting too. Yeah, but it's what makes it worth it. You know, it's painful. It's sometimes it's fun, you know, but it's like, why do it if there's not a little bit of friction? You know, that's important. Boy and jeans is great. Thank you. Good job. I like that. I can't believe that album came out eight years ago. Yeah, time flies. It scares me. I mean, the fact is that you want to be like, let's delete COVID during that. True. The feels unfair. I feel like whenever I look at that, yeah, it does seem like a long time ago. Yeah, well, I dropped my second album literally right before COVID. Yeah, we'll get to that. That's a crazy time to do that. But the success of that album, you know, that's sort of one I think most of us in the, at least the business have an idea. If they didn't know you were before that, they certainly know you were at that point. Um, how did that change your perception of yourself? You've talked about how that album gives you the confidence as a songwriter. How did that change your perspective of yourself as an artist? I felt like my voice was actually being heard, you know? I felt, people finally cared about something that felt real to me. And then I felt, all right, like I need to follow this up with something really good. So maybe there's like another layer of pressure there a little bit, like I wasn't quite free yet. I was more like, all right, like let's keep going. You definitely motivated me, you know? I think I put out like 10 music videos for that album, which is like a 14 song album. - Crazy. - Maybe 12 or something. I know there's a lot of videos. Can not imagine doing that now. - It's fun. - Yeah, it was, it was really fun. - You know, I think that kind of effort in that time period in your life, looking back on it, that's incredible. - Yeah. - You followed that up and you ended up working with Tyler the creator, which is just so fucking cool. Oh my God. Tell me a story about Tyler the creator. - Yeah, so I was driving home. I think I just shot a video and I was driving home from set and he DMed me, which is like dude, the song "Party's Over" is crazy. Just a song on that album and I was freaking out. I was such a big fan of Tyler at the time. Like I literally, you know, it was a huge fan of wolf. Cherry bomb, I just think of his musicality. I really admired his chord choices. I thought was really cool. I know that was like a, you know, it's a big thing for him. So to hear him connect with the music, I just felt so excited. Yeah. And then later on, a few months later, he hit me up and was like, him working on this Grinch thing. I think that your vocals would be really cool in some of these songs. And I was like, he's like, can you come to the studio? I literally was like, I'll be there right now. So I got up and went to the studio, it's so much fun making those songs and the Santa golds on one of the songs. And that was insane to work with her too. Yeah. - I'm mad at you guys. I'm familiar. - It's crazy. It's crazy, yeah. No, I'm really grateful for that. It was another moment of, oh, I'm doing something that's connecting. I'm doing something that, you know, an artist that I admire connects with. It propels you, you know? - So you then released in the album in January of 2020. - Yeah. - That's bad timing. - You're fortunate, but you know, at the same time, I have to say, like, when I put out that record, it wasn't a really weird place in my life. And I was supposed to tour that record around that time. And I'm really glad that I didn't, honestly. 'Cause I think that I would have, I think I needed to not. - Why? You know how touring, I mean, have you toured before? - Yeah. - Like touring, it's like, either the best thing, mentally, but it's complex. It's like, it can be all, it can be all things. It's like, some days you wake up and you're like, I don't know how I can play a show today and like how I can show up and give the energy I need to give for people and feel confident in it and feel like I'm not only giving, but receiving, you know? And I don't think at that time, I would have been able to receive or give the energy that I needed, just mentally. - Why specifically then? Why, I mean, you've already been touring at this point. You've done a little bit. - Clearly, a little bit. But you know, it's just, without going too deep into it, I just, I was maybe burnt out a little bit. - From 2020, oh yeah. We've given it some time. What was the name of your first song? - Oh, I don't know for you. - We'll see, I'm not giving up. It's gonna be right when we shut this off, but I'm still gonna ask. It'll be like 10 years from now. You're gonna be stopped texting me if I wasn't, was it? - Coleco came out. - Calico. - Calico. Sorry. - Calico, sorry, it was like earlier when I was saying, like, you know, when you're trying to tell people, like, well, my last name's actually pronounced baby. - Well, it's different with that. - I was on it though, I knew it was. I've just like, yeah, I read this. - No judgements. - And now, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. Oh, we're good. Brews off the pieces, like, it's like, I love that song. Thank you. I love that song. So before I get it out, I just wanna know, like, what's the story behind that song? Tell me about how you wrote that song. Oh, I wrote that song in Malibu. It was like summer of 2021. And Ethan and I have been working together now for, like, about, like, five months. Ethan is Ethan Graska. Ethan Graska, yeah. So we started working together February or March of 2021. The first song we wrote together was multiple endings, which is on the album Calico. And we both, you know, we knew that our musical partnership together was, like, exciting for both of us. He was the exact person I needed to work with at that time. And I think that we just, like, it was kind of a meant to be situation. 'Cause his music, his choices are very pure. And I wanted to, I knew that the next record I was gonna make, I wanted to be super opposite of what I just made. 'Cause the Dreaming of David is highly affected, vocal modulated, vocal pitched, almost electronic leaning, sometimes dance record. The next thing I made, I was like, I know I want it to be super bare bones raw, the vocal to be right in the ear, whispered almost, and clicked with us right away. So we did some sessions in Malibu that summer. Bruce is off the peaches of one of the songs I wrote. And you would do the thing where he would start these musical ideas and then he would leave. 'Cause I, especially at the time, I needed kind of that privacy, like I would get really shy about songwriting actively in front of somebody because I would be like, maybe overthinking it or whatever. So then I had spent time with just me in the engineer. And I would sit with the mic. And I sang on that mic for hours, melodies, after melodies, after melodies. And my voice was like pretty raw at some point. Sometimes when my voice gets really raw, it's like when it sounds the best. So then the first melody I had for it was the chorus melody. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I was like, ooh, well the first melody I glatched onto. And the lyrics started coming really quick because the minute I'm like, that's it, things really start to fall into place for me because there's like that inner confidence of like, all right, there's something here and now the words almost could come easy because I believe in it. Like the minute I believe in it, then everything else kind of falls into place. So I wrote the song once I got there kind of quickly and I'd finished, I stacked the vocals, I did all the vocals that night, ad-libs and everything and then Ethan came in the next day and I was like, I did this thing, like I hope you like it, whatever I played it for him. He's freaking out, like, oh my God, this is so good. And I was like, yes, like it just felt really good to like get that kind of immediate excitement over the song and I didn't touch the vocals again after that. You know, the vocals that you hear on that song and the vocals I've recorded that night of writing it. So it feels super fresh in the moment of a capture, you know what I mean? One of the things that I love about that album and I was talking about it to Joe and Jim before he walked in, I was like, what I love about what you do is you actually sing that one of one of my favorite writers says to me, he's like, yeah, if people did, you know, I will always love you now. I'd be like, and I, I will always love you. Like that's what people would sing that in the terrible. - You're just funny. - But it's real. It's like, that's how people sing now. And it's like, and it's distracting and it's not fun. And after COVID, during COVID, it became really cool to say everything like this and then the mic and everything's so quiet. And even if you were singing it, so this quiet, everything's bedroom, this and the hip hop world's all day and next to out. Everyone's just, it just was all so not for like singing. And then there's like, and then there's like albums like this that come out where you're like, ah, you're like allowed to sing. And I really appreciated that because it's like a choice that it's obviously natural. But I think a lot of people fight against that because maybe it's not the in thing to do or it's not what radio has. - I think that, yeah, that comes from a place of people not maybe finding their actual voice in their singing. Like I think, honestly, when you listen back to even my first album, like I sing some ways that I'm like, why am I singing like that? Why am I saying the word like that? So I was still shedding this idea of like how I should sound on the record versus just singing, like, singing like Ryan, you know? And so Calico felt like the first time where I really was just doing that through the whole record. So yeah, I think I really found my actual voice with that album. A cowboy Carter comes out in between that and where we're at now. What's the story about working on that album? I mean, obviously, you know, working on the album of the year is an amazing feat, you know? What's it, what's it like to be a part of an album that wins album of the year still blows my mind? Like I have to constantly remind myself that it's real, you know? I was working on that around the same time I was working on Calico. So I was kind of going in for sessions for me and then I would go in for sessions for her. I think my favorite thing about that whole process was I felt like, not just like how do I put this, not just a songwriter for the project. I didn't, I felt really connected to it. I felt really respected. I felt involved. That's cool. And that surprised me, you know? Because I felt like there was a lot of trust put in me. But what made me feel really happy at the end of the day was like I was not only being trusted, but I was also like really coming through. You know, I was really proud of the work I did for it. And I think it just all comes down to allowing yourself to be intentional in all things, you know? So I treated it very intentionally. I treated it really sacred. I didn't tell people I was working on it. Is that hard? Is it hard to work on a Beyonce album? I know she's cutting songs, especially when you have, you know, Beyonce, my Lee songs and whatnot? No, it wasn't hard because I just trusted that it was going to work, how it was supposed to work. The worst thing you can do is be like, I'm working on this big thing and, you know, tell everybody about it. And then if it doesn't happen, it feels like kind of like a let down. Like I have friends that, you know, the laugh because things like that will come out. And they're just like, I don't know how you do it or how you can keep this so close to the chest. And then it's like, we'll see it one day on Instagram. And, you know, your part is something I'm like, no, no. But I take, I just take things seriously. I don't know. Like you worked on what a protector, worked on protector, two hands to heaven, body guard, and just for fun. So crazy. Four songs while the accomplishment on an album that went out of the year. It seems like since that going into sweet fortune that there's more of a, maybe more of a country influence. Is that coincidence? I think that at the time, the sort of songs I was listening to while working on that record definitely like trailed into when I started making this record sweet fortune. We were some of the artists you were listening to. I would listen to Lucinda Williams. Yeah. I was listening to Blood on the Tracks. Yeah. I always, I feel like it's so regretfully that you're listening. You know, when I asked about the reading, my assumption is that there's because it's Lucinda and Bob Dylan, these are lyrics that are, are so vivid and raw and I read a lot of lyrics. I take that seriously. Like I, it's poetry. I mean, it's not, it's, that's serious literature. Yeah. I ask all, I have to say this. I also did read Lucinda's memoir. So that was really good. That was a crazy story too. Yeah. Sweet fortune in the song is excellent. Thank you. That is compositionally just a flawless song to me. Thank you so much. And the chord changes are interesting. Like where the fact that there are some melodic choices in it that are unexpected and something that feels very timeless. Tell me about constructing that song. That does not seem like a song that you can just record in a night. Maybe it is. I don't know. How do you write that song? Yeah. I was in the studio with Claire and I kept referencing. There's this, there's a song that I kept referencing while making this record rainbow connection. Of course, yeah, who doesn't. But there's a purity in that song. I think it's a perfect song. It's like just the most beautiful emotional song. I wanted to make something that reminded me of that in some ways. So we would always say like, my God, we would say in the studio, like when we were writing, mean Claire, she'd be like, this is kermit approved. This is kermit approved and sweet fortune was definitely kermit approved. But yeah, I don't know. We were chasing this feeling of timelessness, maybe of exists now and then in the future, like stand a test of time in some ways, which I know is like a big thing to take on. But ultimately, it at least allows us to like reach for something, you know? And I love that song too. Because actually recently I was asked like, what song would you, when you're like 90 years old, when you look back on from the album and like, you know, stand by the most. And obviously that will probably change many times. But sweet fortune comes up because it feels like such a staple song for the time in my life while making this record. I think it's a little more complex than, you know, maybe the listener might take from it for me at least, like when I look at the lyrics and what it means to me. But I'm glad you liked that one. No, I like that one. First of all, Rainbow Connections written by Paul Williams, who is the president of ASCAP right now and has been in the, you know, it's in the Hall of Fame and just a lovely, lovely person. So I'm sure somebody, I'm happy to connect you, but I'm sure somebody that listened to this love that is to Paul, he's, he's a wonderful person. And a great advocate for songwriters. You know, what's great about this album and lyric wise is, you know, if you did know who you were and what you're, you know, when you're talking about how you're private about your personal life, it does not feel that way. Listen to this album at all. How is it that somebody who feels private about their personal life writes lyrics like that? Don't you feel like you're kind of, you know, let me tell you the problem. Yeah. I feel so comfortable putting it in the music. It's like the one place for me where I can transform my feelings and like, be excited about them and like not feel scared to say what I really feel, but talking about it for some reason. It's like that, that's when I get like shrink a little bit. Why, why is that? Why is it that song that songwriters and artists are fine seeing in front of thousands of people and then, you know, the grease going to be like, six, eight thousand people or something like that, you're totally fine doing that. And then, and then if, but if you took the instruments their way, would you, would you recite the lyrics? That would be pretty good, huh? Yeah. I will say this. My, in those moments, what I, when I'm performing, when the music is out for everybody, I'm thinking less about, at least this is what I'm subscribing to now. Just saying I always probably believe this, but I'm thinking less about what they think of me in the song versus how they see themselves in the song. And ultimately, that's, that's what I want. You know, my lyrics are really personal and sometimes very specific. And especially like in some of my previous records, it's like, you know, could be things that people could find hard to relate to or understand what that means. But I think I want people to, you know, 20 years from now, if they love my music, and they see themselves in it, 20 years from now, they can listen to the song and see themselves in a different way. You know, I think that's what makes music magic in some ways. Not to be corny. No, it's, I agree. Four years ago, you were saying how you were, you would ask someone to leave so you could write the lyrics by yourself. And now you're writing with some writers, including our friend Amy Allen and whatnot. What is it like now writing with other writers? Do you enjoy co-writing? Yeah, it was, that was a hard thing for me to embrace, but I also knew that I would wanted to try it because I wanted to attempt to make the studio a place of joy and not like gripping so tight onto having to squeeze the juice out of something to make beautiful song, you know, and I wanted to shatter my own idea of what it means to like write the songs that I need to write and I want to write. So Ethan had worked with Amy a bunch and he had mentioned along, you know, I think a couple years ago, like, oh, we should all get in a room together and make something and I was like, super down. I think she's incredible. And with Claire, she's been a friend of mine for a long time and we'd never made anything together. So that was something I wanted to try because I also really trust her taste. I think she's like just an incredible artist. And yeah, that allowed me to approach the music from a place of joy, take my own sort of like, you know, that voice in my head that's like, you have to make something now and it has to be the best thing ever, having someone there just be in the room and support the melodies, the lyric idea and just be like, yes, do that, you know, that was important for me at that time. It's also just, it can just be fun. Like you don't have to take it so seriously. Yeah. And there are some some sessions where I think it gets really serious. But I think the process of co-writing that I enjoy is when you're showing up you're like, it's just a day. Like you'll go home early dinner and tomorrow you can be like, I don't like that song. And that's okay. That was you can just enjoy the day. And then maybe a good song comes out of it. But I think when your expectations are like, you know, this is the the the heaviness this part of writing an album goes away very quickly when you're like, Oh, well, I'll just write it on today. And then, you know, I'll get back to this tomorrow. And then out of this relaxing this, you know, often good songs happen, you know, takes you out of yourself a little bit totally. Our Patreon question from our our friends in Patreon, we have our friend Maggie says, if we found your voice memos of your songs before they were finished, what part of your writing process would surprise us the most? Probably how much my voice cracks in those voice memos. Really? No, it's funny to like listen to some of the voice memos. And when you know that thing when you're you're singing the melody, you're trying to find maybe the words for what you're trying to express. And like, there's almost like that middle language that happens where you're like, not saying words, but yours mumbling things. And there's that like, and sometimes you're like, what the fuck was that? Like, do you have do you have voice memos from from sweet fortune? I have plenty of voice memos. Keep playing one. No. What a cry. Here's a question. What was the name of the first song you have ever heard? Hmm, that's not there. Well, thanks for doing this podcast. Thank you for having me. You know, this is like, it's fun because we are able to sit down with all kinds of people and they're wherever they are in their journey. But I just know where your journey is heading as far as it's just growing because you are being so authentic. And it's, uh, Kristen, my friend from billboard had a really nice post about your album. It's like, I don't think there's a song that you skip on this album, but she doesn't do like reviews or anything like that. I just remember seeing it and like even just recently, it's like that the community is embracing this album and you as an artist in, in such a positive way because you are being really authentic. And, and, and right now, authenticity is, it's currency in our business. It's, it's so hard to find that. And it's the hardest thing to do, but it's the most rewarding thing for everybody. Because if somebody's authentic with me, uh, it allows me to be authentic, and especially in a life where you know, so things are so complicated, you know, like, we all want to do our best. We all want to show like the best version of ourselves, but something I'm learning is even coming here today, like doing this is scary for me, but I'm trying to do the scary things because right now, like talking about this and feeling vulnerable and authentic with you, like it heals something in me. And it tells me that, um, like I said earlier with you, it's like all parts of me can exist here right now. And, uh, that's hopefully, that can be felt to the people watching or listening and hopefully they can feel like they can do that for themselves too, you know. Yeah, it's also, you know, it makes you really likeable. Thanks. You're pretty likeable too, I have to say, yeah, they seem pretty authentic. Yeah, but I've got, I've got, you know, afraid to ask me like 10 times the first song I have a road. So I mean, there's some, there's some bravery going on. Oh, we're not done yet. We don't have the interview, but I know it's gonna happen. Give me random posts on your Instagrams. We like come weird things. We like, stop man. But someday I'll respond on, I don't know. Yeah. But no, man, you're looking. I think that, I think being being vulnerable and being willing to talk about this stuff is what it gives license to not just people aspire, but I think everybody's aspiring. I'm aspiring to write great songs today. You know, I most of anybody I know who's in a studio or who's on tour right now, it's virus to perform the aspire to play and they aspire to be authentic too. And it's hard when you've got people who like the powers that be needing that thing faster, needing that song sounding like this. It's hard to have the chutzpah to go and say, you know, I'm going to be, I'm going to be authentic and you do that well and thank you. And thank you.