Ep 260 - Poly+Amor=Us (Elisa + Mike)

(upbeat music) 'Cause at the end of the day, we're doing this to form lasting meaningful relationships with other people, and it's not a competition, it's not a numbers game, it's just like what will make you personally happy. - Welcome to normalizing non-monogamy. The podcast where we interview incredible people from across the entire spectrum of non-monogamy to hear their fascinating stories. We strive to bring guests on the show who have a healthy approach to non-monogamy. However, it's important to remember that everyone does it a little bit differently, and the views and opinions expressed by our guests do not necessarily reflect our own. - Additionally, we produce this show for entertainment purposes only. Please be aware that we aren't doctors or therapists. Consult the medical professional for anything regarding your health that you might learn about on the show. Enjoy. - Welcome to episode 260, we're Fin and Emma. And today we have an interview with Elisa and Mike, who are amazing. This is a wonderful wide-ranging conversation. - Yeah, we kind of get into a lot of things, but really the bulk of it is around how they got started in non-monogamy, which got kicked off by an infidelity, and how they've repaired and recovered and that worked that they did. And so it's not the only thing we focus on by any means, but it is a really great conversation and sort of deconstructing and then reconstructing after that. And so just a huge amount of gratitude to both of them for talking through that with us and sort of reliving that and sharing it with you so we can all be better. - Yes. They also have a podcast called Polly Plus Amor equals us, which is super creative name, and they're pulling together a workshop that's coming out later this month. And you can go to their website and sign up for their mailing list to be the first to find out about it. Links to it for all of the information about their podcast and where to sign up are in the show notes or on our website, normalizingnamonogamy.com. And for those of you who are premium subscribers, we're gonna jump right into the interview now. And for the rest of you, we've got a couple of other short things we wanna tell you about. We're gonna keep 'em short this time. - Yes. - The first thing is the premium subscription. This is a way that you can pay a couple bucks a year or a couple bucks a month, you choose the price, and you get to skip these ads. It also helps support M&Me and the podcast and the work we do so we can keep making this happen. So thank you in advance for doing that and thank you to everybody who has already signed up and also, quick reminder, if you're a community member, you get access included. - Speaking of community. - I was, I was just speaking of community. - You can sign up and join our community. We recently transitioned from Patreon to another platform called Mighty Networks. We're super excited about this transition and love the new format. So we'd love for you to give it a try. You can go to our website, normalizingnamonogamy.com and click on the community button to find out all of the information. It's only five bucks a month and you get access to the Mentants and Women's Groups calls and chat, the ongoing chat on Mighty Networks as well as a monthly Q&A. - Yeah, it's a great community and just a huge amount of, again, more gratitude. We get more thankful for a lot of things. - Yes. - But definitely this community, everybody is kind of transitioned over. It's a hop and place to be and we'd love to have you join us. - Yes. Also, we have a virtual meet and greet coming up on November 30th. These virtual meet and greets are open to anyone. You just must be open-minded and respectful. So feel free, we'd love to have you join us, go sign up on our website, normalizingnamonogamy.com. - And the last, but not last, just kidding, thing that we wanted to tell you about was an intimacy workshop that's coming up as well. This is different than the one that Alisa and Mike are putting out in a couple of weeks. - Yep, this is separate. - Yep, this one is on December 3rd. It is a three hour workshop and it is hosted by former guests of our podcast. Rachel and Eric, they were on episodes eight and 19, respectively, using pseudonyms, but they're back and they are ready to kick some ass. So Rachel is a licensed clinical social worker. Eric is a licensed master social worker and they put together an amazing workshop on intimacy to help everybody. Well, you know what? We're gonna let them talk about it. They recorded a short little ad. We're gonna play it right here and there are links in the podcast player show notes or on our website, normalizinganmanagamy.com for you to sign up and just one quick note. They mentioned the time is at nine. It's from nine to noon. That is nine to noon Eastern. We just want to make that clear. - Have you ever felt your sexuality was misunderstood by a partner? Would you like to be able to talk more openly about your turn-ons and your turn-offs? - Are you an asker or a guesser? How about in the bedroom? If any of these questions are intriguing, you'll likely be interested in our next intimacy workshop on Saturday, December 3rd, from nine a.m. to noon. - This online event is open to individuals, couples, thruples and more. We hope to see you there. - Just a quick reminder, you can sign up for the workshop on our website, normalizinganmanagamy.com. Use the code Emma for a few bucks off and go enjoy this workshop we're super excited. - And if you learn enough that you get out there and you want to start getting your intimacy on with other people, we're going to go ahead and recommend you get tested for STIs. And the way the MNI do that is we use a service called STDcheck.com and we're not alone. Tons of you use this service every month and we're grateful to all of you because when you do, you save $10 by using the links on our website and you help support us financially. - It's super quick and discrete and we would highly encourage you to give it a try. - Yes, it's $129 for a 10-panel test. You know, that's cheaper than your Starbucks coffee these days. (laughs) So this is a much better investment in your health and happiness than your Mocha Latte Frappuccino. - You just totally made that out, didn't you? - It's probably a thing. (laughs) Add some sprinkles, call it a rainbow. - It's a Latte and Frappuccino at the same time. - Is it? - No. - I don't know, you used to work there. (laughs) - All right. - Anyway. - Anyway, the last thing we wanted to say, reach out to us, send us an email, send us a voice mail. We love to hear from all of you. Tell us what you think about us, our show, you, your show, whatever, you don't have to have a show. You can also come on. There's a lot of things you can do and a lot of things that'll happen when you reach out. See what happens. - Yeah. - Give it a whirl. - Give it a whirl. And I think with that, we'll jump into the interview with Elisa and Mike. (upbeat music) - Well, welcome to the podcast. Elisa and Mike, we're excited to have you here today and we're excited for this conversation. (laughs) Would you tune by me starting by introducing yourself? - Hi, I'm Elisa and I'm like, oh, what do you introduce myself? Who am I? What do I, what do I even say? I'm Elisa, this is my husband, Mike. We live in Los Angeles and we've been polyamorous for like four or five years now. - Yeah. - Perfect intro. - Yeah. - Yeah. And what, Mike, do you have anything to add? - No, not really. (laughs) - Well, how about we get into the background then and say what happened five years ago that cracked open the polyamory world to you and maybe what was the lead up to that? - Yeah, so our story is a pretty interesting one. I think it's something that most people don't really ever experience or move through the way that we did. So we started dating like seven years ago and we had been dating for about two and a half years when I cheated on Mike. And when he found out, we, and of course this is like the abridged version, when he found out we talked about it a lot and he's the one who actually told me, well, it sounds like you want to be polyamorous. Like from everything you're telling me, that kind of sounds right. And I was like, what's that? You know, I had no idea, I had never heard of it. And then through more talking and more conversation, I realized like, yeah, that's definitely what I want. And so we did some work on our own relationship first and then after that we opened it up. - Yeah, do you, do you mind talking a bit more about, so the infidelity piece is the thing that's come up probably about 10 or 15 times throughout our interviews with people. And I think it's, it is so common that it happens and usually what happens is there's an infidelity, everyone gets angry, breaks up and away we go because you're the devil or the other person whoever cheated is the devil and they screwed it all up. But you two have salvaged it. You've, you've rebuilt on top of that foundation. How did you do that? - Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think, I think our story's actually very common as you were saying. And yeah, typically, you know, when something like this happens, one person gets upset and they break up. - The trust is destroyed and they're, they're pride and ego are, are brews and they to say screw you and move on. But yeah, for us it was, I don't know, it was just, I guess it was a little different because we started dating in May 2015 and everything was going great up to the point of the infidelity and I mean, we had like common issues that couples have but like nothing major, right? - Sure. - We're pretty good at communicating at that point. You know, if one of us was upset about something or wanted something. - We're decent at communicating. - We've really gotten better at it. - We haven't gotten better but there was nothing like major that wasn't being said. - Yeah. - It wasn't like you really were wanting something or I was really wanting something and you never didn't know about it. - Yeah, it wasn't like I was super unhappy in the relationship or that anything was really wrong with the relationship, like none of that. It was that I had just met somebody that I had this crazy connection with and I was like so confused and it was really hard because I felt so connected to this other person and yet I was like, well but I love Mike and then I started thinking like, oh well, if I have this connection with this other person then I must not actually love Mike because that's like the narrative I had always been told is like when you find the one, you're never gonna have feelings, you're connected with anybody else and so I was so confused. I was like, well then do I really love him? Do I not? I don't know. And it was like this whole big thing. - Yeah. - But even though there was nothing wrong with our relationship, I really started to second guess it. - Yeah, so I guess just unbeknownst, is that a word? - Yeah, unbeknownst to me, yeah. - Unbeknownst to Elise at the time like I had, I had experienced those pretty much the same exact feelings in a prior relationship but I never acted upon them. But you know, they were, I was dating someone, it was probably three or four years in our relationship and then I had strong feelings for someone else. But you know, of course at the time like my girlfriend and I had never talked about being polyamorous or trying to date other people. So I just kind of pushed those feelings aside and it was as difficult. And so when, I guess when the cheating happened, like all of this, you know, all of this came out and it kind of, it was interesting. Yeah, it kind of did shatter our relationship but then it also gave us the opportunity to build a backup how we wanted. And so it really just opened everything up. - Yeah. - And I guess that, you know, after it did happen and after, you know, we talked for several days or even several weeks, I had to, uh. - The talking went on for months. - Yeah, it was long. Well, I guess like, right. - But it was so necessary. - Right after it happened, you know, I had to make the decision like do I want to stay with Elise and I was like everything in my head, I was like everything's been great so far. You know, I do love her and like I just, like nothing had been wrong up to that point. - Yeah. - And, so yeah, I mean, I decided like, yeah, I do, I do want to stay with her and try to like rebuild this in a more, I guess like meaningful and just practical way for us and a style that suits us. - Yeah. - That was interesting because at the more I thought about it, I was like, it wasn't really even the cheating that like the physical like interaction with the other person that was painful. It was just like, they're not telling me. - The lying. - It was the lying and not being upfront about it. The lack of communication. So it's like the actual physical act. I was like, I didn't really care about that, but of course, I mean, you didn't really, like none of this was discussed at the time it happened or before hand, so. - Yeah. - You didn't really know that, but yeah, so, yeah. It's like I said at that point, like once I decided, like, yeah, I do want to stay in this. Like I do want to try to like, you know, rebuild our relationship, how we want it to be. And then we just, we kind of just moved forward from there and I had a, I had an, and just prior, I'd read a lot of just like psychology and like dating books. - Lots of dating books. - So, I, maybe like two or three, I'd read the game and like that, it was a great story, but there wasn't really any like meaningful advice in there. But then I had to, I wrote some other like psychology related dating books and I was like, wow, this is like, it's really all about just building yourself and building your confidence. And I would just a lot more like, yeah, meaningful in the long run than just like silly little, like, ploys. - Yeah, like pick up artist stuff. - Yeah, exactly. But, you know, a common theme with a lot of those authors was that like they did work towards being polyamorous. Like that just kind of seemed to be just a natural progression in their life. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like I may not be ready for this right now at the time, but, you know, I put it in the back of my mind is something that I may wanna do later on in life. And then, you know, when our relationship was being rebuilt, I was like, okay, I think this is the time to introduce this. I think it could work well for both of us. - Yeah, and that was actually gonna be one of my next questions. I think you pretty much just answered is that did you, either of you have a framework for what polyamory was or even nominogamy in different forms before this happened in your relationship? - I did not. I was like, yes, of course I had always heard of like, open relationships, but in my experience, that had always been, oh, a guy at a bar would be like, oh, I have a girlfriend, but we're in an open relationship. Like, it's totally fine. And it's like, okay, but does she know that you're in an open relationship? Because I don't think so, right? That had always been my experience with any form of non-monogamy. So to me, yeah, I had no framework. That wasn't even an option. I didn't even know how that worked or where to begin. But Mike had more. - Yeah, I saw it a little bit of the framework 'cause a lot of the people I had read books on, they were, their version of polyamory is more so just dating. It wasn't really being married. They're like, oh, I'm gonna be polyamorous. So I'm dating to find the one and then get married and be monogamous. So it was pretty limited, I guess I would say. - So yeah, when we opened up our relationship and decided to be polyamorous, we kind of were starting from scratch and just kind of had to really think more about it and what we wanted it to look like and kind of set some ground rules and so yeah, I mean, it was definitely a new territory for us. - Yeah, I had, like once I was like, okay, our relationship is good, I wanna start dating. I had like read some books as well. Like the ethical slut. That was like the one that I was like, okay, I can do this after reading that and that's kind of how we basically just off of that and then we were like, okay, we're gonna figure this out as we go and yeah, and now it's been a few years. - Yeah, how did, and I don't wanna like fix it, I don't, but it is basically part of your origin story. Like how did you, 'cause opening a relationship is hard, right? If two people, nobody's cheated on anybody and one of you comes and says, I'd like to open our relationship. Like that's a big conversation. - Yeah. - And now you're doing it on top of this like, well, we sort of have a, we had a break in trust. So now we have to like heal trust and then we have to work towards that. How did the two of you rebuild that trust? And then what are the first steps in like, you read ethical slut and now you've got to like take that out into the real world. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was definitely a process. So when, like we started talking about like, so basically I had, I had said that I, that this was going to happen again. Not like the cheating necessarily, but that like me having feelings for somebody else, I was like, this is gonna happen again, because it's happened in the past before, but this had only been the only time I had like acted on it. And, but I just knew I was like, this is gonna happen again, where I'm gonna have feelings for somebody else and I don't want to have to suppress that. Because if these feelings are coming up, there's a reason for that. And I don't want to suppress that. So I thought after I said that, I was like, we're breaking up, there's no way he's gonna, but he was like, I understand that. And so we talked through it more about like, well then what is it that we are both really like, seeking and wanting and and after talking about that, we decided like, okay, we do wanna be polyemorous, we do wanna open up our relationship. But first, we do need to work on our own relationship. And honestly, it just meant us being together monogamously for about another year. And just spending that time together, rebuilding that trust and just being together and remembering, like why we love each other so much, why we wanna be in each other's lives. And after about a year, actually it was like a year and a half after that, we got married. And then maybe six months after getting married, then we started like, okay, now like seeing other people and like, okay, now we could start dating. And but it was like a very, very slow process. It definitely wasn't like deciding we wanna be polyemorous and then just going for it because we did have to rebuild that trust. And then even, even because I was going home, I was like, okay, I'm ready to start dating. I'm ready to do this. I'm so excited. But again, we had to go slow with that because there was still, it was still hard for Mike to see me go out on another date because the last time something like this had happened, he had gotten really hurt. So we did, I did take it slow and there was a lot of talk about like, okay, if I go out on this date, like how are you feeling? Are you okay? Is it okay if I do this on a date or do that on a date? And like there was a lot of our rules and our boundaries were pretty tight at first, just to sort of help Mike through that process. But as I started dating and as I started like seeing more people and doing more and more, it got easier for him. And then it was like, okay, we slowly started making those like rules and boundaries like less tight. - Yeah, yeah, totally good. - Yeah, first, I mean, first we definitely had to mend our relationship, that was not as key. But I think an important part of that is actually just realizing that we were on the same page that we kind of wanted the same things and going even deeper into like our beliefs and what we wanted, that definitely helped bond us and we grew closer from that experience. - Yeah, I mean, we would talk every single night for probably three months. We would just talk about like relationship and like why and feelings and like why we wanted this and like getting into all the like minutia of everything. Like for three months, every single night, just talking. But it was so important for building up that trust and making sure we were on the same page. So when we finally did feel comfortable, we're like, well, we have talked about everything now. So we're good. - Yeah, I really think that whole process, it's interesting. I think we were kind of like deconstructing our beliefs on monogamy. - Yeah. - And so because we have this whole lifetime of, you know, monogamous narrative on TV and through like any form of media essentially. So I think at that time we were both kind of realizing like, hey, this isn't really what we want and like it's not really gonna, it's not working for either of us. - Yeah. - And so over that time period, you know, I think we were kind of just deconstructing those beliefs and then forming our polyamorous beliefs and also just kind of the rules and kind of like our roadmap of how we wanted that to look since it was so new. And it, yeah, I mean, it's just a long process. You don't just flip a switch and like, oh yeah, I'm polyamorous now. - Yeah. - I get it. - It takes a lot of talking, a lot of figuring out. - Yeah. - Yeah. You might be able to flip the switch and say I'm there, but then how to do it is, okay, now we've got a lot of work to do here. - Yeah. - Right. And it sounds like on your end, well, I think on Alisa's end, right? It was very much like, well, this is gonna happen again. Maybe I won't cheat next time, but there's gonna be feelings. And it sounds like Mike, you experienced this in a previous relationship of like, hey, I have feelings. So it sounds like you were both kind of aligned that like we, it didn't seem like you were being dragged into it at this point, I guess. Mike, it was sort of like, hey, we need to reassess this. And let's do it together moving forward. - Yeah, exactly. I had had those feelings in a prior relationship and even in our relationship, it's not like, I mean, there's always like, you're gonna be physical attraction, but, you know, I didn't really see what was wrong with pursuing physical or romantic attraction to somebody while seeing somebody else as, you know, as long as everyone was open and aware of that whole ethical aspect of it. And yeah, I mean, that was the whole reason why I brought it up as a possibility for us, 'cause, you know, something I also wanted to explore too. So I mean, I guess Alisa, Alisa kind of, I think what we said before is like, Alisa kind of blew up the relationship, but I was the one that kind of was architect piecing it back together. - Yeah. - I don't know what we called for, but I guess I was kind of like. - Yeah, I was gonna start that, the idea of how to do it. - Exactly, yeah, 'cause, yeah, I had never heard of polyamory or I never would have thought to go down the like non-monogamy road. - Yeah. - That was definitely all Mike. - Well, which is amazing, right? 'Cause like, I'm just projecting into your belief here when you like, the infidelity comes out and you're like, oh boy, well, this is all done and over with. And he's like, hold on, I got a new idea for you. And you're like, well, what the fuck? Like, I just did this thing and now you're like, we can keep going and do this other, like, yeah. - Yeah. - Like, I can see that for sure. - Yeah. - Well, then it takes time to kind of wrap your mind around all of that, for sure, both of you. - Yeah. - When you actually started opening up and seeing other people, how did that go? - I look different for both of us. - Yeah. Yeah, so I started, I started dating just like, I don't know, people, I worked at a restaurant at the time. And so I was seeing lots of people. And I don't know, when you work at a restaurant and you're like, you know, in your 20s, like lots of people are like, you just get hit on. And so, honestly, that was like how I was like, oh, when the right person finds me, yeah, sure, I'll go out on the date. And I was really dating a lot of people who had never experienced non-monogamy or didn't really have a framework for it. And it was hard, it was really hard because it was like, I have to explain this whole thing. Oh, PS, I married. That was always the big one that people couldn't wrap their mind around. And most of the time, guys would just be like, okay, that's weird, but if it means ultimately, I can have sex with you, then like, sure, let's go for it. You know? - Which is exactly what you want, right? - Right. But that's kind of like, that's how men's minds work, not all the time, but I feel like some of the time. And so, yeah, it just, and then so maybe we would date a little bit, and then they would, but they would just find it very weird, or they couldn't wrap their mind around it, or they'd be like, well, what's the point in dating you if I can't get married to you? And so after a while of like, dating people who had only ever been monogamous, and that's all they ever really wanted, I realized like, okay, this is not for me. I need to find like the non-monogamy dating pool and like jump in there. And then once I did that, I was like, oh, okay, this is like so much better. But the beginning, it was hard, it was hard for Mike when I first started like going on dates. - Yeah, I mean, it was, it was somewhat difficult. Like, it's definitely gotten easier. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, the first few dates, like there's, you're still having to like, get comfortable with, you know, your significant other going on dates and seeing someone else, and there's just like, I like, there's just naturally some jealousy and insecurity there. But then, you know, as the least I was going on more dates, I was like, okay, this is like, first off, like this is what we want, this is what we agree to. So I was like, trying to rationalize it, but you can only rationalize your emotions away so much. (laughs) - Right, you still have emotions that come up and make perfect friends. Like, yeah. - It's really just like, it really does just boil down to like trust and like, comfort with the other person. Like, you do have to trust them because at the end of day, like the jealousy and insecurity is like, oh, like, they might think someone's better than me or they might leave me, but like, the more that, at least, I was going out, the more I realized, like, yeah, this is like, like, we are, we are life partners. Like, I do fully believe that and I do trust her. Like, we've gone through so much together, we have so much history and like, I feel like our roots are deep enough where, like, that to me just like was, so like, concrete in my mind that over time I was like, okay, like, I don't really need, like the jealousy and insecurity just did this kind of like, faded away over time because like those, yeah, I mean, they just, yeah, they just weren't there anymore. - Yeah, it sounds like you were able to find ways to self-soothe, like, acknowledge your emotions, be there and have them and then over time, figure out how to work through them yourself. And I'm sure with lots of conversations together. - Yeah, just realizing like, yeah, I think, why, what's, what's the cause of them? Like, why, why are they there? Like, it really is just like an insecurity that like this person's gonna leave me and I love them and I'm gonna like be alone for some time. Like, that's what it boils down to you. But like, once, I guess, once I solidified in my mind, like, that's just not, to me that wasn't just, that was just wasn't gonna happen. - Yeah. - I mean, it would take a lot of, it would just take a long time and a lot of like, talking and like, kind of like a long, like, degradation of our relationship for that to happen. It wouldn't be immediate so I'm like, there's just like, yeah, no reason to have these feelings. Like, oh, this is gonna happen tonight kind of thing. - Yeah. - When I'm out on a first date. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know? - Not coming home, like, sorry. I'm leaving with this one where, we're hopping on a plane tonight. - Right. Like, exactly. - Exactly. So, yeah, there's like, it's just getting over those, like, those fears and those inscuses, yeah. - Yeah. - But I guess for me, my dating, I guess, progression was quite a bit slower than Alisa's 'cause she, she was definitely more gung-ho about it. She was also just more out and about. Like, I'm an engineer, so I'm in the office 10 hours of the day. I'm not like, really meeting anyone I can go on dates with. And, yeah, I mean, I definitely, I took my time. I was also, I had never really gotten into the apps, so I never really went to the app route. So I was just, in my free time, typically on the weekends, like Friday, Saturday, I would just, I would go out, try to go out one day a week, just with friends, without Alisa being there. And then I would just, I would just try to meet women, you know, on those nights. And it was interesting that very first woman I met had like, was super familiar with Pauli Emory and just like that whole community. She probably knew more than I did. And so she was, I mean, she was a great person to me and like, date a little bit for the first time, but then I realized like, there's this kind of beginner's luck and it's not going to be like that at all. (laughing) - Well, I would imagine the narrative for, and this is, I mean, we have a lot of anecdotal evidence that women aren't, like you described Alisa, men are like, well, you have a husband, but I'm going to get to fuck you. Like, it's not necessarily, there's not necessarily that cut and dry, but I don't think it's quite that easy for women, right? It's not like, oh yeah, sure, you're in an open relationship, like I bet, like you have happened to meet the one person who was like, oh, that is a real thing, you're probably not lying to me, but yeah, I can imagine the majority are like, yeah, okay, buddy, you sure you are, or, yeah, I can see that. - Yeah, so I mean, I've, I don't know, I've probably brought it up to like at least 20, 25 different women and I've been surprised, it actually hasn't been that bad, like no one, like no, no one I brought it up to is like, totally like gotten upset or like thought I was like, oh, you know, lying asshole, like trying to cheat on my wife. And a lot of times I'll just be like, 'cause I still wear my wedding ring, I'm like, well, if I was trying to cheat, like I would just take up my wedding ring, like, I hope you're right. - I'll be right. - I'll be don't think I'm that stupid. (laughing) And so, yeah, actually that one, that one actually works pretty well. (laughing) - That's your pick of mine. - No, no, no, it's the way the conversation progresses. It's like, you first meet them like you're just, you're like out single is meeting someone else. Like I just wanna go out and like have fun and like have good conversation with someone. And I never start by saying like, hey, I'm polyamorous. Like, it's gonna be such a, you know, kind of an odd, like, totally catch someone off guard intro. - Yeah. - Well, plus it would work 100% of the time and it takes all the fun out of the game, if it's just, like shooting fish in a barrel. You just walk into a bar, polyamorous over here and then just come on over. (laughing) - Exactly. Well, fun is that. - Right, right, you gotta work for it all the way. - Yeah, and so, I mean, that's, I think that's actually kind of the hardest part is like, figuring out when to say like, hey, I'm polyamorous. 'Cause like, that's, you know, that's a big decision for someone to make. If they wanna like still pursue. And so, yeah, I mean, I'll just, yeah, I just, I have like, just try to be fun, be normal in the beginning. Like, really get to know the person. Like, and they'll catch on to like, your vibe and who you are. And like, they'll be like, oh, is this person just like, kind of like, fronting himself. Like, shouldn't it be someone he's not? And, you know, at that point, I'd hope like, I've given like, enough across, where like, they trust what I'm saying and like, they trust me. At least to like, a certain extent. As much as you can trust someone who you first met. And then, yeah, I always want to bring it up like, relatively early, 'cause I don't want to like, waste their time, I don't want to waste my time. If they're really not like, into like, someone who's polyamorous, how they really want to get married. Like, there's, yeah, you know, there's kind of no point to like, continue pursuing someone romantically. So. - Yeah. Have you continued down that same route or have you decided to go the app route after trying that for a while? Or are different routes, what route do you currently use for both of you to, for finding people? - Yeah, so I have, I have gone a little more of the app route. I'm not super active on it. But yeah, I just, you know, there's, there's certain apps that are geared more towards non-bidogamy. So it's just a lot. It's just, it's easier. It's a better use of time. Like, going out, I still enjoy going out. Like, I just, I don't go out. So like, just to like, try to pick someone up. Like, I go out to like, hang out with my friends and just have a good time, blow off some steam. And like, yeah, if I'm, if I see someone and I'm attracted to them, yeah, like, I'll, I'll go talk to them, but, you know, I'm not super dumb hoe about it. And so, but at the same time, like, yeah, I mean, you can only, like, the first one worked out, but I've gone through like, I don't know, you know, 20 or so others that were, they're just like, oh, like, like, yeah, like, it's fine, great talking to you, but like, I'm looking for a husband kind of thing. So yeah, like, if I do really want to like, try to meet someone, it is just a better use of my time to, to use the apps. - Yeah. - And then we've also, also, there's some, some polyamory meetup groups in LA that we've gone to. I'll lay a couple. - Yeah, and that's been fun, but that's more to like, build community, not really to like, find someone to date, you know, it's more just about finding other cool people who are like, you know, into polyamory and nomenogamy. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, it still could work out. - Yeah. - And you know, they're polyamorous. - Yeah, exactly. - That's right. - Yeah, that in common. - Yeah. But yeah, I've mostly now just used dating apps because I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I don't want to waste my time with people who like, don't get it. I mean, they're, and it could totally happen, right? Like there are people out there who are like, oh, that's really interesting, tell me more, and then they could totally be into nomenogamy, but it doesn't typically happen that way. So I mostly now just date from dating apps because I just, you have to, you just skip all of like the, having to explain like, what nomenogamy is, and what your relationship style is, and all that, like you just get to skip all of that, and go straight into getting to know somebody, and like, yeah, you still have to kind of ask them, like, what is their relationship dynamic? Do they have other partners, all that kind of stuff? But that's also more just like getting to know them and who they are, whereas like, explaining nomenogamy is like, that's just like, a whole new thing. - Yeah, I guess I don't mind that. - I don't mind that, I don't mind that all that much. I kind of, I kind of like it, 'cause people are like, whoa, that's like so interesting. Like, you know, I've kind of heard of that, or like, you know, it's brand new to them. - Yeah. - I kind of like that whole process, but then again, I mean, I used to like tutor before my current job, so I just, yeah, I don't know, I like. Like, having to explain myself or repeat myself is like, the things that get me so upset. I'm like, I already said this. I don't wanna have to. So like, having to explain things to people, no. - Yeah. - No, not my jam. - I mean, I'm not trying to like, I'm not trying to like convert people to polyamory, but I'm not trying to like, you know, spread the word that. - Yeah. - No, I think it's interesting. - Yeah, you're just sharing your life. - Yeah. - You're doing the large work, Mike. - Right. (laughing) - How about, could both of you kind of describe your relationships, I guess, where you're at right now? - Yeah, so neither one of us is in a relationship right now. I haven't had like a long-term relationship yet. I've dated a lot, met a lot of cool people, met a lot of not so cool people. But nobody that I've been like, oh yeah, I wanna like continue seeing you and like see you longer. So that part still has yet to happen. So I feel like we are still fairly new, I guess, to like neither one of us has had a serious partner or has had like other partners that have been around for a long time. So we're still kind of like new to that territory. - Yeah, I mean, I think you've probably dated at least five other guys, right? - Yeah. - If not more. And then you had one relationship was several months. - Yeah. - So at least has definitely had more and longer relationships than I've had. I've only had, I'd say, I've only had two. The first one lasted like a month and then we'd started in February 2020 and then COVID hit and we're like, oh, (laughing) pressure to see each other. - Yeah. - And that was unfortunate. And then, yeah, I mean, the one after that, it only lasted like a week. It was super short. (laughing) Which is like, yeah. - Because she didn't really want to be in a non monogamous relationship. - She's like, this is fun, but like I'm also like dating someone else. So I think I might marry. So to her, it was like, what's the point? - Yeah, she's like, okay, that's nice. - Yeah, I'm just not, I'm not super, I guess I'm just not super active in like trying to pursue other relationships right now. Like I've always been a little more career oriented and I'm kind of just like, if it comes about in my natural day to day, life then I'll pursue it, but I'm not like setting aside chunks of time like every day or every week, trying to like find another relationship. - Yeah. - So I guess, yeah, I'm just, just a lot slower, slower moving than a Lisa is. But that's fine. It's not like it doesn't have to be, exactly 50/50, we're just kind of going out our own pace. - Yeah. - Yeah, I love that because I think it is, it is a question we get off and email to us is like, we got into this and usually it's, my wife has just got 1,000 dates a week and I haven't had a date in seven months and it starts to build that. And like, it does happen in reverse, but that's typically the pattern. And but like to hear you like, hey, like it's, I'm gonna go at my pace, but that's a really hard thing to do to be confident enough and say, yeah, she's gonna be off maybe sprinting and I'm over here like that and I leisurely walk and that's okay 'cause I'm feeling good about what I'm doing for me and she should feel good about what she's doing for her. - Yeah. I think it's very relatable to the jealousy and insecurity when she went out on dating. I think just like coming to terms with those emotions during that time has kind of like helped me be okay with our difference in pace. 'Cause at the end of the day, like we're doing this to form lasting meaningful relationships with other people and it's not a competition, it's not a numbers game. It's just like what will make you personally happy and so yeah, I mean, just constantly comparing yourself to other people on their pace. I mean, if you do that with anything in your life, that's kind of, because it can be motivating but it's also extremely stressful and can be depressing. - Right, yeah, totally. I mean, there's like the whole social media aspect of that. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm just, like I would like to date more but that's kind of like my own, you know, I'm trying to like shift my own priorities so like spend more time in actually pursuing dating and you know, it is a bit more work for the guys to pursue the ladies. - Yeah. - That's just how it works out. - Yeah. - So yeah, I mean, those are just like my personal goals, but I'm not like, yeah, I'm not comparing myself to, yeah, he's saying bold over here. (laughing) - No. - Safe move, safe move. - Have the two of you done any dating together? - No, no, we haven't. So I think it would be really fun to like wing woman for him, but he doesn't really feel that. But yeah, I'm like, I think that would be super fun to be like, ooh, what about her? You know, we're like, ooh, I'm like, I don't know, just be out together, but I don't know. - I'm not, I'm not opposed to that. (laughing) - You're not? (laughing) - I think it definitely feel a bit awkward at first, but. - Yeah. - I don't know. - Yeah. - Well, I think that's something we just have to try and see, I guess. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, one of the things that I just was just thinking about a second ago is you two were talking is, we often talk to people who something that they repeat over and over is like, we're doing this for us. We're doing this to make us stronger. If it's not gonna help us, then we're not gonna do it. And I haven't really heard that from either of you. It's been more like, like you just said it a minute ago, like we're really here to form meaningful bonds with people, whether that's a week long or whether it's a year long. And I don't hear that undertone of like, well, at the end of the day, it's us. At the end of the day, it's us. We have to be us and everything we're doing. - There's nothing wrong with that. - It's not, but it seems very much like this, I want Mike to do what's best for Mike and I want Alisa to do what's best for Alisa and we wanna continue growing and being together at the same time. - Yeah, yeah, and that's exactly it. Like, I mean, we are doing it for us, but like we're also doing it just for ourselves, you know? And that's one of the things that when we were talking a lot before we ever really started dating, that was something we really solidified for ourselves was that this being in relationship with other people is how we grow. And I know for me personally, I grow the fastest and learned so much about myself when I'm in relationship with another person. And I mean, that doesn't even necessarily mean romantic relationships, that could be friendships. But like, that's how a majority of us really grow is through relationship. And so that was kind of the realization for both of us is that that's why we want to have like seek multiple partners and have multiple relationships because I mean, even though it's been, my relationships have all been pretty short, the one that was like three months. I grew so much from that and our relationship, our own relationship really, really grew. And it was like, as I was learning things with this other guy, I would bring that back to Mike and be like, oh my gosh, I realized this thing or I learned this thing and it helped our relationship grow. So it's like, if we're doing the work separately, it's still going to affect our own relationship. And so that's kind of where we come at it from, is that like, we can be in our own separate relationships, but we're always gonna come back together and have that growth still be there and affect like our relationship and make it better. - Yeah, no, I think that's a good point you brought up though because we haven't like, explicitly stated like, you know, this is like four hours, but you know, like the way we've structured our relationship is like, you know, we're like each other's primary partner. So we spend at least 90% of our free time with one another. So it's like, yeah, we, you know, we're definitely like, still each other's like, main primary relationship where we spend our most time. - But we've also never had another relationship to even really feel like, oh wow, I wanna spend a lot of time with this person. Like we haven't gotten there yet. - Yeah, I mean, not, I felt like you did with that three month relationship, but-- - Yeah. - And that kind of ended abruptly for an unfortunate reason. But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like we are, I think we're just, we become so comfortable and like so solid in our relationship that like, it's almost just like, it's just, it's just there. Like sometimes we just don't even think about it. And yeah, it is important to, you know, always like be considering like how our relationship is going and like where we're at, but-- - Yeah. - I guess yeah, we just haven't really had anything come up. We're like, we've had to question that. It's just, I just think we're very comfortable with where we're at. And we're just trying to like build from there. - Yeah. - And just meet other people. - Yeah, and I think the point that you kind of made Elisa right at the beginning of, it's if we do this for ourselves individually, and we're becoming our best selves, we're gonna bring that back to the collective us. - Right. - And I think that is a thing that people can sometimes miss is they're like, you're like, well, oh, she's just being selfish going out on these dates. Like well, she's also like finding who she is so she can show up better in every aspect of life or you might like anybody in this who's doing this. Like, it's a way to become your best self so you can show up in all of your relationships more authentically. And I think sometimes that gets missed. So I appreciate you kind of highlighting that, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, beautifully stated, that's exactly it. - Yeah, I think actually a big part of why I wanted to be polyamorous is because in a prior relationship, I just, I felt like, I just felt like stuck. I was like, I feel like if I say with this person, like, I'm not gonna be able to grow to become the person I want to be, like, I'm just spending so much time with them and like, so focused on them and we were almost like too similar in a way where we weren't kind of like expanding each other's comfort zones. And I was like, yeah, I just don't, I don't want to be in a relationship like that. And that was actually the whole reason I ended up ending that relationship. And so yeah, I mean, it just goes along the same lines. Like, yeah, like we can still be comfortable in our relationship and grows individuals. And then yeah, as you're saying, bring it back to the collective us. - Yeah. - I think that's a great way to put it. And that's how we feel about it. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. Good job summarizing, Finn. (laughing) - You had mentioned a few times going out with friends. And I was curious how open with you about your relationship style and dynamic are you with friends and family? - So I think pretty much all of our close friends and family know that we're polyamorous. We've told them all up to this point. - Yeah. - We're pretty, I'd say we're very hoping with it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - We don't try to hide that at all. For the most part, everyone's been pretty accepting at the least. I think my mom's probably been the most resistant of the bunch. 'Cause like all of our friends, I mean, they're like, they get it, like they're a little more familiar with it. - Yeah. - As opposed to our parents, we were like less familiar with it except for, at least his dad and who, (laughing) he was like back in the 70s, you know. (laughing) - He was more, I guess more familiar with like the disco hippie crowd. - Yeah. - He was like, he got it. Like he understood. - Yeah, he was like, been exposed to it at some point. - This is not a new concept. This has been around for a long time, you know, he was like, whatever, he's like, it's not for me, but if it's for you, great. - Yeah. (laughing) - But I feel like that's actually the response we've gotten from most of our friends. Most of our friends have been like, okay, yeah. Like if that's what you want, cool. It's not for me, but if it is for you guys, then have at it, you know, like for the most part, everyone's been pretty chill about it. I'm like, okay, cool. - Yeah, and that's fortunate for us 'cause I mean, they're all pretty open, no one's like, you know, strictly religious or like die hard about certain beliefs. So, that's actually been very nice and helpful for us. - Yeah. - And then, yeah, my mom, I mean, she grew up Catholic and she's pretty religious, even though my brother and I didn't, we never went to church growing up. But, you know, she's really all about family and I totally get that. And at least then I'm not wanting to have kids being polyamorous, like that's just kind of totally goes against, you know, her foundation, her core beliefs. So, but she just didn't get it at all. - I feel like the thing that she was like the most hung up on wasn't even necessarily polyamory. It was more just the cheating. That she got really hung up on that and like really fixated on that. And so it was hard for her to move past that and really see that like, well, we've moved past this. We're fine, you know, and like that is still like really, that's something she hasn't really been able to sort of get past. So then accepting like polyamory or just understanding that aspect, I feel like that's been hard because she hasn't even been able to get past like the cheating part, you know. - Yeah, well, yeah, once at least cheated and I told my mom eventually it took a while. - Yeah, I was like a few years. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she didn't tell her earlier. - Well, it sounds like you had it tagged right that she wasn't going to react well. - Yeah. - You can see we're now like, now all of a sudden, at least it's like the pariah devil in the family who has caused all of this. - And my mom's mind is like, if you cheat, like you're, you know, you're just a bad person, like why would you ever cheat? - Yeah. - It's kind of no like gray area or no like, you know, what's the nuance, what's the reason? It's just like cheating is bad. - Yeah. - And so yeah, that was really hard for her to get over. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's, I can imagine like, and then you go ahead and break the mold even further and say, well, yeah, we navigated in fidelity and now we're opening our relationship and I can see how that would run against all of the grains of her life. So totally understand that, yeah. Well, we wanted to give you a chance. I mean, first, thank you for sharing everything you shared so far. We want to give you a chance to talk about your work. We know you to also have a podcast and do, do work to help bring awareness to what you do and what we all do. So, John, talk a little bit about that. - Yeah, yeah. So we, once we started really like publicly talking about our journey and discovering polyamory for ourselves, I was like, gosh, I wish people were talking about this. And this was also back in 2017. And yeah, I just was like, where are all the people talking about polyamory and non-monogamy? Where are they? And so once we started really talking about it openly, I was like, I wish, when we had been going through everything, that there had been more resources. And I mean, I know there are resources out there, right? But like, I just, I had wished that they were a little more easily accessible. And so once we started talking about our sort of story and our journey, I was like, we need to, like if these resources don't really exist, then we need to make them. And that's kind of where this all began. And so I was like, we should start a podcast. We should share our story, share our journey, and share the things that we're learning as we're learning them. Like we're not experts in anything, but we have lived experience that we can share. Like hearing other people's experiences is so important. And that's how we all like grow and learn and realize that we're not alone in any of this. And so that's when we decided to start our podcast. And so it's called poly plus and more equals us. It's an equation because Mike is such a nerd. And then also we call each other Mio Moore, which means my love in Spanish. And so we kind of put that together, like the poly plus and more equals us. So it almost says polyamorous, it's one letter off. But yeah, and so we started our podcast and it's really just us talking, sharing our story, sharing what we've learned through our journey, what it's been like dating, and the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it. Like, and we don't really hold anything back. So yeah, that's kind of, that's our, that's our podcast. - Love it. And I love the name and wordplay. As two engineers ourselves, we can appreciate the equations. So love it. - Awesome. - And the, yeah, we get it, we get it, we love it. - It's creative, for sure. - Yeah, so is the podcast is mostly just, you two sort of talking through your experiences in your journey? - Yeah, yeah, it's mostly just been us. We just started to like bring guests on. We're not really exactly sure how we're gonna flow through that. We had an episode with my parents, and they were like our first like real guests. And that was actually really fun. - Yeah. - Yeah, because, yeah, we got to hear sort of, also their experience as a parent, when we were going through all of this, you know, me coming to my mom and being like, "Oh my God, mom, I cheated, I fucked up, it's bad." And then too, okay, but we're still together and we're working through it. And like all of that, like, it was kind of a roller coaster for them too, and it was really interesting to hear from them like how they were feeling through all of this and what it's like when like your child is going down a path that's, you know, not the path that everyone goes down. I don't know, so it was really fun. But so they were our first guests, and we are definitely planning on having more guests on, but I think we're still always going to keep the focus, at least for now, on sort of our journey because that's what we can speak to the best. - Yeah, love it. - I love it. - It's like a great conversation. - It does, I'm excited to go listen to that conversation. - Yeah. - Yeah, there's some pretty funny, funny little nuggets in there. - Yeah. - Yeah. Before we let you to go, I was, we usually ask, if you listen to the show, we usually ask about a blooper. - Oh, yeah. - And I wanted to see if either of you had something, a blooper that's happened to you, or that's happened to both of you, that shows that sex and relationships don't always go smoothly. And if you don't, that's okay. But we figured we'd ask. - Oh, I know, I'm sure there is a blooper about, gosh, and I know, I'm like, I know you guys asked this, and I didn't even think about, like- - I've been fortunate to never have been like slapped or had a drink thrown in my face yet, so. - That's good. - I'm fortunate for not having that blooper. - Oh, yeah. - Well, congrats on being an, not an asshole, right? (all laughing) Set the bar real low. - I think, I can't really think of one, like specifically around like sex or anything, but I mean, I've definitely had some really, like bad and weird dates. And I guess it's not really a blooper. I guess it's more of like a tip. Like, this is just me, when I'm going out on a date, like, I've been on plenty of terrible ones that I guess you could consider those bloopers, but been on enough that I like have a system down for getting out, you know? - What's the system? - Yeah, you have to share it. - Yeah, so it's like, if you live somewhere, where like, so we live in LA, and so there's parking meters everywhere. I always park at a parking meter, and I only put an hour in the meter, right? So it's like, I'm giving you a whole hour. And if it's great, awesome. Let me go put more money in the meter. Let's like go to another bar. Let's do whatever, you know, keep the night going. And if it's terrible, then it's like, okay, I gave this one hour of my time. I gave it a shot, my meter's up, I gots to go. And like, having something like that, like where, like people get it, you know? It's like, oh, my meter's running out, you know? And I've definitely had guys be like, oh, well, do you want to just put more in? I don't be like, you know what? - No, I don't. - No, yeah. I don't know, like, there's nothing wrong with being, I think it can definitely take some people off guard a little bit of like being so upfront. It'll just be very upfront about it. Be like, you know what? Thank you so much. But I don't think I'm interested in, you know, continuing this date, and that's it. And then say goodbye and out. But like having that time, that like time limit, it really helps. So finding something like that. - Man, I think it's a great tip. I wish I had one. I just, I can't think of any. - I'm sure we do, and we just can't think of any of them. - No, it's all good. Well, I think that tip is great because not only, I think it probably also correct me if I run, at least. Like, it gives you a little more confidence. - Right. - You're not like, you start talking to somebody and you're like, oh my God, what, I got four hours of this? You're like, no, I know I got 57 more minutes. And then I've got at least, I at least go outside and get away from it for a few minutes. And like you said, like to be able, I give you a lot of credit to be able to say like, actually no, you know, I don't wanna put more money in the meter, like, I thank you, but no. And like, that's a really hard thing to do 'cause I think so many people would be like, okay, like two more quarters fine, right? And then you give in and then it's two more quarters. Two more, like, no, like, no, I'm good, I'm good. I didn't, yeah, that's hard to do. - Yeah. - Are you open to sharing one of like, your weirder data experiences without outing anybody as being a weird date? - I actually, it wasn't super weird, but it was the first time I had experienced somebody who was using polyamory, the way Micah kind of described earlier was that they were using it as a way to just like, date a bunch of people and like become a better boyfriend is the term that he used. He was like, I realized that my last relationship, I'm not, I'm not a great boyfriend, I'm not great at being in relationship. So he basically just wanted to date a lot of people, learn how to be a good boyfriend, and then find somebody to be in a relationship, be a monogamous with and get married. And I was like, and I was like, I get why? And I think that's great that you're wanting to date and learn more about yourself and become a better person. But like, I met you on a dating app that's about like non-monogamy. And so now I feel like you're just using me to like grow and then you're just gonna like dump me and leave me when you've gotten what you needed and find your Mrs. Wright. So that, I was like, and I definitely do not go on another date with him after that, but I told him why. I was like, you know, we just want very different things and I feel like you would just be using me and I don't like that. - I would have a say about that is I love the fact that he was upfront about it and that you were then able to be upfront about it too, like, hey, here's what I want. And you're like, hey, that feels like shit. But like there might be 20 other women who are like, cool, I can do that, I'm okay with that. And he'll be much better suited to go on dates with them. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, that's a key to sharing your intentions. - A lot of people don't share their intentions. I'm just like, I'm gonna just-- - We're so afraid of like hurting somebody else's feelings that like it's like the thing with the meter, right? It's like if you're so afraid of hurting somebody else's feelings that then you do something that you don't even want to do 'cause you don't want to hurt their feelings and it's like, no. - Or it's opposite. They're trying to hide something, they just kind of want to be. - Yeah. - I'm like, I just want to like sleep with women and pretend like I'm, I like them or like, I'm going for material. - Well, in the irony, the irony there at least is you like, you're gonna hurt their feelings more if you put three more dollars in the meter. And at the end of the three-hour date, they're like, well, do you want to do another date? Like, no, I actually haven't enjoyed this one bit. I was just too afraid to say that. And so I kept putting money in the meter. Like, how is that gonna make the feel any better? - Why are you wasting people's time? - Yeah, exactly. - That's a strange amount. - Yeah, well, I know part of it too is like, some people get afraid in person to have to tell somebody, like, I'm not feeling this. And so they'd rather wait till they get home. And then they're like, okay, now I can like, do it over text message and that, that's a little bit easier. But either way, you're still gonna have to do it. - Sure. And I would like to acknowledge too that like, for anybody who doesn't feel safe doing that, right? If you're in a situation where you're like, if I tell this person, no, like, I'm worried. - I'm not sure what's happening. - Please, get yourself safe and then you call them. Like, I just want to throw that out there but like, there is definitely a safety aspect to this that if you're sensing danger for yourself, get yourself safe and whatever way you need, if it's two quarters or 10 and then get yourself out. - Definitely. - Yeah, so I just, I think that's an important caveat there. - Oh, definitely, for sure. - Awesome. Well, thank you both. Is there anything that we haven't asked about or talked about that you wanted to get out in the world before we let you go? - I guess like one last little thing, we had talked about how hard it is to open up a relationship and it's like, where do I even begin? And Mike and I have obviously had a lot of experience around that and so that is something, that's something that I'm in the process of creating right now is like creating, I don't quite know if it's gonna be like a course or an e-book or whatever, but it really is like about like how to open up a relationship, how to have those conversations, how to start them, important things to say, things maybe to avoid saying or like how to say things in a way that isn't going to freak your partner out, stuff like that. So that is something that I am in the process of making and is almost complete. So if anyone out there is like, how do I do this? I got to. - Yeah. - Well, links to your website will be in the show notes and perhaps by the time this releases, it will be available and if not. - Shortly after. - Shortly after. So yeah. - Yes. - Love it. Well, thank you for doing that work and thank you for all the work and for sharing everything you shared with us today. - Yes, thank you. Thank you so much. - Yeah. - Thank you guys. - It's been wonderful. - It's been great. - And we're back. Thank you so much, Alisa and Mike, for sharing your story and for the amazing work you do with your podcast and the workshop that's coming up in the end of November. A quick reminder to anyone listening. You can go sign up on their website for their mailing list to receive, be the first to receive information about the upcoming workshop and links for all of that are in the podcast player as well as in the show notes on our website. - Yeah, I'm just gonna echo Emma and say thank you to both of you for doing the work you do and for coming on and sharing your story and your vulnerability and also go listen to the episode until listen to them interview her parents. - You're right. - Yeah, I mean, come on now. That's something we have not done. That's true, we have not yet. We'll see. - We'll see. - What we mean is we're gonna interview Alisa's parents. - Right. - That's what I'm getting at. - Yeah. Anyway, thank you again, Alisa and Mike. A few quick announcements, reminders I suppose before we let you go. Our next virtual meet and greet is coming up November 30th, you can sign up on our website normalizingnamanagamy.com. Well, you're there, you could also order a shirt. They say give love, you can order a shirt or a sweatshirt, support the show while you're doing it. They are amazing and super comfy. - The other thing we wanted to remind you of is the intimacy workshop hosted by Rachel and Eric. Again, from episodes eight and 19 respectively. Back then they were using pseudonyms. But you can sign up on our website normalizingnamanagamy.com. Use the discount code Emma when you find those links under the podcast tab, podcast show notes. You're here, you know, you know the routine. Anyway, you save a couple bucks and we will see you there 'cause we plan to be there that morning. So that's all from us today. We have a wonderful interview next week. You would not have guessed it. - I don't. - But it's true with Taylor. - With Taylor, it is. - Hilarious. - Hilarious, lively, amazing, beautiful, so many things. - Yes. - And we can't wait to see you next week. - Bye everyone, thanks for listening. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]