Ep. 259: Jessi Alexander on Writing "The Climb" The Week She Almost Quit... + What It Takes To Last as a Nashville Songwriter

Welcome to and the writer is I am your host Ross Golan today's songstress is a true craft woman her pen is not afraid to get a little messy she's deservingly decorated because unlike most she made the climb wait no I like this one better if I got to choose a co-writer right now right here mine would be you oh and the writer is the one and only Jesse Alexander well done well played uh I feel like we've been trying to get you on this thing forever and so I'm really happy that you're here so glad to be here thank you for having me uh you're a really talented writer thank you you too why are you in LA well I came to see you and we're here to see some music tonight we're gonna go see you in LA well I came to see you and we're here to see some music tonight we're gonna go see crazy about music and I think looking back it's like my dad didn't really know what to do with me other than this little girl but he loved music he's a painter but he loved music and he was very a part of like the Memphis blues scene at that time and that was like our language together he this stack of vinyl he'd pull out and it'd be everything from bluegrass to country like I said soul delta blues and that was the one thing that we could really talk about and the more I knew about the music the more it it would you know um he would just adore that you know and I could talk to his friends and then I could pick up a guitar and play it or um so I was just an odd kid everybody else was playing soccer I'm like figuring out how to play the slide guitar because I saw Bonnie Raitt do it you know I'm yeah that's cool I'm just different and all through that time and then I'm also they're noticing at school like every time there's a poetry contest you know winning or anything writing I was just like journaling writing what's the first time you ever wrote I don't know I this sounds like a funny such a songwriter thing i remember rewriting other songs what's that like i remember hearing a song and sitting at the piano and trying to learn it but i was too lazy to write out the lyrics so i would just rewrite my own lyric to the song like using the melody what was that first song that you do remember i remember definitely hank williams senior who um was a big influence of mine and you know it wasn't like i'm still in some i could cry but something like that like just sitting at the piano three chords and just doing that crazy that guy died i mean all those guys died in like their early 30s late 20s early 30s and he died in the back of a car on the on a tour really yes something like that you know yeah it's so tragic did you grow up around a place that glorified that kind of personality i mean definitely being from the south like and just being shuffled around from bars to like because i was um done a lot of seedy places in memphis and jackson tennessee i learned how to shoot pool young i learned how to drive a stick shift because my dad drank you know like i had very like rural blue collar um kind of seedy like they should be a movie about it actually you know it's like a lot of that color is what i draw from um a lot of just people that work really hard and to make very little you know um and so that's like the backdrop of core of me as a writer that's where my work ethic though it's almost like i saw people bust their ass but i also saw people not you know and just like spiral into really dark places so like seeing both of those things like is the core of me like i'll never go there i know that's where i come from but it's so interesting when you said avoiding sitting with the posh pits which really like hits me because that's where i try to sit i know you know it's like i do i mean trust me i love a good vip you know you you're trying you're going to the greek tonight which you know uh i won't has like the grass that the best posh areas so you know when you say you're out of the try try to go sit where people are using their hard-earned money to yeah uh to buy those tickets so that way you can um so you can feel you know what those what they're feeling see what they're wearing hear what they're talking about doing all those things what lights their eyes up what makes them want to hold their girlfriend a little closer or all those little things did you ever feel like you were being pulled from the your roots the climb definitely was the wildest card ever played like when i say i was writing at that time i was um i had tried to do when i moved to nashville people heard my voice and they were like you should be an artist and i was like really i mean i'm you know how it is like starving artists like i'll do anything like just pay me a draw um and so i got a publishing deal and an artist deal but it very quickly you could tell i wasn't the artist type i wasn't driven to be an artist i didn't they'd be like what do you want to say i'm like i don't know like i didn't have that part of me um and i didn't have that part of me um and i didn't have that part of me um and i didn't have hated to talk about myself and like prop myself up and to be something and so that fizzled out really fast but when that happened of course you lose your record deal you lose your publishing deal and i was in no man's land for years um just writing no one really took me seriously because i was like a washed up artist you know no way i couldn't get any good rights and so when i wrote the climb like that was such a random day like it wasn't i wasn't thinking anything i did when i heard the melody in my head on the drive there i did remember thinking this sounds classic and it sounds like epic or something wait paint this picture yeah tell me about the the full day what is the day that you wrote the climb okay the day is like another damn day i'm i'm just out of a deal like kind of in the beginning of this new deal um disney had signed me to their nashville office but i mean it was like i feel like lisa ramsey kind of signed me as like a pity favor like she obviously saw something in me but like i was not getting good rights anymore and i was just floundering around and that morning me and my husband were we had just gotten married and we were starting to think about kids my husband's an amazing songwriter and he had just written and one song of the year for whiskey lullaby which is a huge huge hit and he's he's crushing it his career and i kind of started going i don't know we're gonna get married and i kind of want to have kids so maybe i should just back off of all this and maybe i mean i've given it at that time i've been like eight years and i was like maybe i mean i felt like that's maybe not what i'm supposed to be doing so i was just kind of i don't know what i was doing i was kind of biding time until i got pregnant or something you know i just wasn't thinking about uh ever having a hit i was really down really dark and um i just drove into that day on my little civic and um i remember the radio was on and i turned it off and i remember thinking i've got to have an idea because i had a new writer that i didn't know john may but was on my calendar um and i was like i really got to come up with something we had a female artist booked um because i was starting to really try to show look i can write for other artists i don't have to be the artist in the room so anyway i um heard the melody in my head just the the chorus of the climb and i just remember thinking is that islands in the stream is that what am i on what is this and i just turned off the television i turned off the radio and didn't pick up my phone i was like listening and by the time i got to his office i'm like busting through the door i grabbed the guitar i may didn't even talk to him i was like i'm so sorry like i just got to get your guitar and i played the chorus the melody of the climb and uh he's like whoa whoa i was like i know i know i'll just put you know he's putting garage band up we're recording it and um about that time the knock at the door and in walks the artist that has i've never told who it was but she walks in and i'm excited because like i've got an idea for this person and she sits down and i'm like thinking i got a good one you know and uh she says the fate boards you know what i have so many ballads like all i need is like a show opener like a barn burner and i look at him and i'm like i can't give can't show her this so she's gonna hate this you know and uh we wrote i got the guitar i wrote like a shuffle like bluesy shuffle she was gone but the whole time we were writing i was thinking about that song you know that i came in with and um after she left i said let's let's listen but it was too late in the day and for us to finish it but i was like send me that so i can just think about think on it and um during that era you've come to nashville and i know y'all have the award shows but we have like this whole awards week where it's like ass cap awards bmis c-sac cmas and for a struggling writer that literally has nothing going on it's like it's torture to go to another award show and yet another year not getting an award and i was just in a dark place i was happy for my husband i was happy for my friends but i was just like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna just like why why do i have to be here all this time and i don't want to go you know but i went that night and i remember just standing there clapping for someone that had literally just moved to town and they were getting their first award was it i'm not telling you why they would appreciate that you're not saying that and it was just like really they just moved here and at that i didn't have the title of the climb but at that moment i remember thinking but would you want it that way and i also i honestly asked myself would you want to roll into nashville and it all just be there and then what or would you like the long slow roll and the pay the payment you know the payback when you get it and the underdog story and then then the longevity and i was like i want that and i remember logging that thought and um that's the same day that you were saying it was just like a couple days later and then we got together and john was an underdog as well he had he had been a song plugger at emi he never had a hit never even had a song recorded so when we wrote that song i promise you there was no thought of it being a 17 week number one like change my life song hey guys have you ever wanted to get further in the world of and the writer is have you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me well guess what you can now join the conversation that's right because we just launched our patreon you'll get access to our monthly zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos give feedback you can hang with us directly and we can hang with you too look occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community and maybe most importantly to me you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes that's episodes of charlie xcx and sabrina carpenter and lin manuel miranda and shania twain and babyface so much so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and i'll see you in the next one bye bye and knowledge from so come and check it out in the description below there's a link for you to join us on patreon I mean, I think a lot of us have songs that we really like that are on our computers that someday should be a hit somewhere, but that doesn't mean they ever get cut. Tell me about how the climb gets heard and how it gets cut. Yeah, it's a cool story. So we write it. And at that time, I hate singing so much because I told myself, like, no one's going to ever want to cut anything you're singing because I'd been an artist. So I made him sing the vocal, but I did do one female version. Back then, we were doing a lot of versions. And it was a little more spiritual and had a little more gospel feel. Some of the lyrics were changed. It was actually written as third person. You can almost see it, that dream you're dreaming. It also had some, like, faith things in it, topics. So anyway, we had our demo. And Lisa Ramsey, who I mentioned earlier, she found out that Disney was doing the Hannah Montana movie, and they were filming in Nashville. And she's like, wait a minute, you're going to come to my turf, Nashville, Tennessee, and film this movie, but you're not going to use the Nashville songwriters songs? Like, she just couldn't imagine. So she went on her own. And found the director of the movie, Peter Chisholm. She invited him over to the Nashville office to have, like, what we call a guitar pool, where she'd drink beer, play guitars, and around. And this guy was, he had, you know, was fresh out of, he, like, had this British accent. He's from London. Never seen anything like this. We're a bunch of rednecks sitting around drinking, literally, Bud Light and playing guitars. And he just was really into my voice, which makes me want to cry because I make, it makes me think about how much I hated myself. And then that was the thing that he was like, I just love your voice so much. And I was like, thank you. You're so sweet. And he's like, would you please just, I don't want to go home without hearing your voice. Can you just put some songs on a CD so I can just listen to you sing? And I was like, okay, this is it. This is my moment. Because I don't have any pop songs. I don't even have kids. I don't know who Hannah Montana is. But if I want a song on this movie, I have to think real quick of what song do I have that's remotely pop? You know, and I remember, oh, is there is that it's the climb song. And I put that on the CD. And he went back to London. And then, like, maybe two weeks later, we get a phone call. And in his British accent, he says, Darling, if you will rewrite the song, I'm going to rewrite the whole script. And it's going to be around the climb. I mean, I have chills thinking about it, because I thought, how sweet is this guy? Bless his heart. He doesn't know that that doesn't happen for people like me. Like, I've been here for a, you know, you know, someone bigger, better is going to come take this slot. Because he's like, no, it's going to be the song. He kept comparing it to the Rose, that Miller, that movie. And I was like, yeah, I'm like, Peter, sorry, that's not going to happen. Yeah, thank you. And he's everything he said would happen happened. And it just, it literally was. It was surreal, because during that time, I got pregnant. And so as I'm preparing for, you know, my daughter to come, there's my dreams. I'm turning on pop radio, and there's the climb. I'm turning on TV, and there's the commercial for the Hannah Montana movie. Like, all these things are happening as I'm, I'm like, it literally in the hospital giving birth, and she sang it on the President Obama inauguration ball. So it was like, all my dreams came at one time. But your original question, though, was like, like, where have you had to pivot? Or, you know, it's like that. I didn't consider myself a pop, young pop, you know, female songwriter growing up the way I did. But like, that was, I guess, the route that God used to get me into this job was that song. That's a fantastic story. And I would like that copyright. Okay. So does the artist who came in that wanted the barn burner that you gave the shuffle feel to? Yeah. Does that person know that that was a song? No. You've never let them know? And they still have no idea? Do you ever see that person? Not, not really. Yeah. It's a weird thing, because, as I always say, if you want to know what it's like to be a songwriter, walk into a room of people you don't know, sing at them, and then ask what they think. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's super weird. And I think people think that it's a normal activity, but it's this vulnerable thing. I had a song that was, you know, your story, not mine, but I had a song with Maroon 5 that was a similar thing, where I walk in, wrote the song, I have the voice note, the drive all the way to the session, playing for this— Peril in the door. Yeah, I played for this, like, super producer and his super co-writer, and they had a lot of hits. And I sang it to them, I sang at them, and they were like, yeah, I don't know, I'm not really feeling it. And I had a double that day, and that night, I brought it to one of my, you know, now dearest, dearest friends, co-writers, and I sang it to him, he was like, this is great. And he did a version of it, and Maroon 5 was recording that night. And so they played, Max walks in, he's EPing the album at the time, here's the song, this is Day Of. And Adam came in and cut the song. And it was like the same thing where I walk in. Earlier in the day was so like, how do you guys not hear it? I also did think, you know, I've been when you say the different versions, I have many examples of the thinking that it's for a man and that that a female cuts it because it gives it's empowering from her perspective. And similarly, thinking it's for a female and a male artist cutting it because it gives them vulnerability when they're so used to the other thing. So if you if you can't figure out what to do during a day of writing, just take one of your songs and change the perspective of it. And that might be really valuable. Absolutely. Or change third person to first person. There's so many little tricks. When you said that the climb was initially spiritual, are you religious? I'm very spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. How often do you find spirituality to be in the inspiration to your writing? Probably 100 percent. Oh, wow. Yeah. Even even when I'm writing something that's, you know, you would probably say, I don't know how you'd put that in a spiritual box, but I really feel like. Um, God, my higher power, like I said, like literally gave, like, this isn't just a job. Um, and there's been other songs that I can, like, I drive your truck. There's like, this is like my purpose. This is my life purpose. There's a reason why I wasn't, you know, an artist is because I really needed to be where I'm at because I, I try, try to really use this as not just a money making. It's like, I want to inspire people. I want to, um, make people feel seen and heard. And so I've take it very serious as a, not just a job, but as like a lot of my life's work is to, to share the gift that God gave me, you know, every day. And that going to that award show and thinking, man, that long road is what's going to be rewarding is inspirational. And I, I, you know, that I, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard not to envy the person who shows up and just cranks out hits. But if you don't have that foundation of struggle, you know, I think a lot of the people, if success has 10,000 or a thousand fathers and failure has none, when you have a moment like the climb, I imagine a lot of people were like, I always knew you, you had it in you. Or what was worse was like, oh, see, you weren't a country rider. You should have been doing film and television. And like, I was so confused because I was like, wait, what? What am I? You know? So it didn't solve all your issues. It really actually complicated. And Nashville didn't claim it. You know, they were kind of like, oh, see, yeah, you should be out there. You know, you. Did you have direct conversations with other people you're thinking of specifically? Just, I remember, you know, the gatekeepers in Nashville at that time that I couldn't get arrested with, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't get any songs in those camps or in that, those labels. I thought, see, I can have a hit. Like, invite me to your party. And it just didn't get me in any big rooms in Nashville. It didn't help break down any. I felt like everyone was happy for me, for sure. Nashville was happy for me, but it was more like, yeah, go do that. You know? And I'm like, wait a minute. Like, that's not really what I do. And I enjoyed those, that first couple of years after the climb, I, you know, got to write for like a Celine Dion record. I wrote for Princess and the Frog or Tinkerbell or, um. Like Hannah Montana, the finale. Like I had some really great songs and a part of that, but, and my core, I mean, I've told you who my influences are. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's hard to take William Sr. and then you're doing that. I'm not able, I mean, I can only rhyme wings and dreams so many times, you know, like I knew, like I know. If you're a Disney writer, though, then, you know, that's a valuable rhyme scheme. And it was great. Like I said, God used it to get me to the game. But then it was like the real work because then I had to prove to everyone, no, really, I can get in these other rooms and I can write for Blake Shelton or Dierks Bentley. Did you have to hide that you wrote The Climb? Were there times where, not that you were embarrassed of it, but were there times where you strategically kept that away from conversations? Not so much. I think the biggest challenge I had when I realized right away was I just I can't sing in the room if I'm going to try to write men's songs. I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to, you know, get these guys singing. And I have a big range as a singer. And I learned really quick, like there's. There's things I just can't do if we're writing for these type of artists that don't sing. Not Blake Shelton, obviously, but. No, but I Drive Your Truck is our long legato notes in an era, you know, the pop version of it that I always think is funny is that if people did, you know, Dolly Parton, I Will Always Love You. Now I'd be like, and I, I always love you. Nobody holds notes. And you got these men to sing. I'm a singer. I'm a singer, singer. But, you know, that's so. Yeah, that's again, one of those Nashville rules that are broken. Yeah. How do you get Lee Bryce to actually sing? Yeah, it's long notes. I think it's finding not so much. They're stretching them. It's finding like I remember with like a Morgan Wallen song, like I know what a great singer he is. So I know that he could do the flip. He could do the falsetto flip. So intentionally put that in. Don't think, Jesus. I like to find. What has this artist not done? What a part of their tool belt have they not used? What what does the crowd not know that they can do? And that might be recitate like like an old country songs. Riley Green just did it with Ella Langley where they talk like that's a trick. Or I might think, do people know how low this guy sings? He can. He's like a great baritone. I do a lot of homework in before I write. That's how I had the Cole Swindell, Lainey Wilson duet was because it. It dawned on me the morning we wrote that he'd never sang with a female. So I was like, OK, how am I every day? I'm like, how can I be used here? And that was the day I was like, OK, well, I can sing the female part and he needs a he needs to have a duet, you know. So did you call Lainey? I mean, who? So how does that how does that sound? And tell me about the day that you guys. Yeah, we're on tour bus. And like I said, I had that title. Never say never. Just in my phone. And we wrote a really neat duet where it's like you sing a line. I sing a line. You back and forth instead of verse, chorus, second verse, you know. And it was really fun. And we literally had it written out like a script because it was so complicated. And then I sang the demo. And what was hard about that was at that time, all the females that we wanted to use or Cole wanted to use had just done a demo and just done a big hit or couldn't get the clearance with their label or whatnot. So that song sat there for about two and a half years. But our pluggers at the time, Anna Wiseband and Rusty Gaston, they loved that song. And they're like, one day we're going to get the right artist. And I give them the credit for just knowing we've got Cole's vocal. We just need the right female. And at that time, Lainey, who I'd already been writing with and I'm watching her. She just had her first hit with Things a Man Ought to Know. It was just perfect timing. Again, it's like that's always the story of my career. It's like I always have to be patient. I'm patient because it always works out. You know what I mean? It helps to be prolific to have a lot of songs out there. And, you know, with that expression of people overestimate what you can do in a year and underestimate what you can do in a decade. Yeah. That those things do have, things have a way of working out if you're patient enough. Yeah. It's just hard, though, you know, not to go back to the eight years you gave before. Yeah. To climb. There are a lot of moments there where you can give up. Is there a moment where you thought it was going to work, but it just didn't? No. I mean, it was like a downhill spiral. A really long. How do you get signed initially? I just. Yeah, I just. Tell me about moving to Nashville. Yeah. Well, I am. Luckily, you know, I'm from two and a half hours away. So, like, it's not. Yeah. You either go to Memphis or you go to Nashville. And so I went to MTSU, the college outside of Nashville, and I was floundering around. You were probably there when Luke Laird was there. Yeah, we were there together. Did you guys write together when you were there? No, I was a social work major. And because at that time, their only options were you had to be like in the engineering program, like a sound engineer or a music business. And I mean, I can't even, you know, balance a checkbook. So I was like, I'm not either of these people. So I'm a social work major over here, but everyone would hire me to come sing the background vocals or sing, you know, they're for their demos. And that's where I met some of those guys. But I was taking a music business class and the teacher called me to class after I'd been there four years. And he called me to class after class. He said, Jesse, I've never said this to a student, but I think you need to quit school. And I was like, whoa, is like you're a social work major. Like, look, where? Where were you last night? I was like, the bluebird is like, you need to go. And so I did. I I was like, I just needed someone to tell me that. And I did. And right away I got a backup singing. I thought I'd be a backup singer. That's really where what I first moved to town for, because that's what I was doing in bands and stuff. And I got a job pretty quick. But it was like Cinderella story. And then got like I said, every one thing led to another. People would hear my voice. I got the deal. But then I got a job. I got trapped in a lot of mergers and record label, you know, all this stuff that was going on. And what I was doing at that time as an artist was probably where like a Casey Musgraves or Chris Stapleton kind of singer songwriter more like that. But at that time, it wasn't that kind of music. So and like I said, it is what, 2002 ish. Yeah, it was like 2000, 2005 is my when my record came out. And like I said, it was just this this person signed me and then this guy left. I mean, it was just a mess. The dysfunction that you had in your family and then going to college and then not finishing college, was that hard for your family? It really wasn't. I mean, because college was kind of far fetched. Like I said, a lot of people in my family are like carpenters and like trade people, you know, so college was already a big deal. I will say that my everyone in my family knew that I was going to do this. Yeah, it was just a matter of when you were going to do it. When your album comes out, my first album came out in November of 2004. Okay. My first like major label album. And it was, it probably should have come out 18 months before that or, you know, a year before that. But similar thing, people kept moving. And by the time it comes out, it comes out on the like. It was like just a terrible day for it to come out. It was just not good time. It was just everything happened that shouldn't have happened. And you're sitting there, you're like, man, I put in. All this work. Yeah. And I think when you're early in your career, you feel, I don't want to say entitled. That's not really the right word. But there's an element of it being kind of easy as far as you go, you leave college, you get gigs, you get a record deal. And you have an album release. And yeah, it's dysfunctional within the label and people moving around. But I'm still going to come out. Things are still going to work out. I've seen that happen. Oh, totally. So the album comes out. What happens? It's just like. Well, I have a label mate as I was on Columbia. And at the same time, because there was two launching pads for like two promo teams, radio. And so you could launch two singles at the same time. And the same week that mine's being launched is Redneck Woman. Gretchen Wilson. So like. Yes. Yeah, it's like a decade. The whole world changed. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, just blew me out of the water. I'm over here singing like cool, like Sheryl Crow, like, you know, whatever. I mean, it was like the Redneck Woman and that movement began. And what I was doing was so different than that. And so it was just like, man, it was dark. It was just really, I just, I can't say enough like how I just wasn't cut out to be an artist. I can remember being at radio stations and be like, who's that? Who's the hottest guy in country music? And I'd be like, Chris Christopherson. Like, I didn't know how to play the game. You know, I didn't. Now I work with artists every day and I marvel at them because they know how to say and how to, they know what they need, you know, and I just wasn't cut out for it. And I was also bored. I didn't like singing the same song every night. I love traveling. I love being on a bus, all that. But I love to wake up every day and with a blank piece of paper. That excites me. Well, yeah. And, you know, writing. I saw him for Miranda Lambert versus Blake Shelton is such a different day. So fun. And you get to shed who you are and be somebody else. for a day it's hard to explain how fun that is if you're not fun you know um if you're not in it but i know i'm all over the place but after the climb you end up getting into the blake shelton world and you end up having hits so it wasn't that long of this you know the getting some respect from yeah it wasn't country world but it still is a couple years and you know uh and some re-educating plus your uh a new mom yeah yeah you know your new mama postpartum and like whatever that is you're not having it you have a child yeah was there ever a moment where you're like okay i now have like the world's biggest smash it's hard to beat that and i have a daughter i'm and you're not sleeping and all those things like what's the process for a new mom to get back into a songwriting game that is fairly aggressive yeah and it's like no one's you know sending you flowers for leaving like people are like next like you know you you definitely i felt like if i leave no one's gonna miss me you know like they'll just put someone else in my spot and move on like i felt like i could not take my foot off the gas and um it was really complicated because you know you have like all these doors opening you know that you want to take advantage of but i'm very committed to my role as a mother like i i wanted to kill it like i want to be a great mom you know so it was hard those years i had all these opportunities i mean i remember getting opportunities to write in london and and the out here and just like a big artist and whatnot but i just had to prioritize really what the life i wanted to have and what kind of mother i wanted to be and that's when i kind of said you know i thank you because at that point i was out of disney maybe at cobalt at the time but i just wanted to be a mother and i wanted to be a mother i just remember thinking like as much as i love to write out here in london or just because i do i love film and television i like trying all these different things i just got to focus on country music because that's that day is pretty easy you know you wake up i get my daughter off to to school or whatever daycare at the time then i go right and then i pick her up you know and i have a pretty um there's a lot of people moms at school that don't know what i do you know because i'm there i'm able to be there for um a lot of school stuff and um because i so right after though to answer your question i was like kind of getting my feet wet trying to be a working mom you know being home with her and then we got pregnant with twins so i'm like okay wow this is a whole other game change um but like i said like god is good like right when i think how am i gonna do this like how i'm gonna have three kids under the age of three that's when um the era of like i drive your truck and mine would be you and drink on it and like a whole other run of songs and it's it was weird as i constantly felt like babies are a blessing you know for me like in my career they've just been nothing but a blessing nmpa is our lead sponsor yet again what is the national music publishers association what do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway well unlike artists who can be unsigned artists there is no such thing as an unsigned writer you can be a self-published a co-published or a publisher writer publishers only make money if songwriters make money so nmpa goes and fights for you they go to congress they go and support the community they fight dsps to get you paid more that's what they do they fight for you and they fight for this podcast so thank you for fighting for songwriters nmpa thank you for fighting for us too i find being a dad makes me ultra efficient yes because i'm not gonna and i don't want to spend all night here i want to be home for dinner i want to take my kids to school all those things and also rocking your kids to sleep and doing all that can be a very cathartic time where i'm writing a lot of lyrics and ideas and going to my phone and doing stuff but that string of hits is is not by accident and it's really hard to do that even when that's all you have to do yeah why do you think you had the string of not just hits these are like career makers yeah you know what was it how how were you able to balance being a mom and being you know just maybe the world-class songwriter of country during this era so hard i mean i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to do that a lot of um trying to stay in the like boys club trying like you know trying to appear like oh no i can hang you know i mean it wasn't graceful all the time um during a chronic migraines and that's a whole other story but like i lived a lot a lot of years in chronic pain so i mean i can remember just being on a bus like with a migraine like trying to write a song trying to hang trying to stay up late but then i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna taking the red eye home so i could be there for someone to wake up you know just it wasn't healthy there was a lot of years of just running frazzled um i don't know if i did it very graceful i remember feeling like and i wrote about it in a song that i put out called mama drink where it's like when i was being a good mama i felt like i wasn't being very good at my work and when i was at work killing at work i felt like i wasn't being a good mom like there were many years of that and you know i beat myself up and i was like i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to over that but it it all come you know my kids are fine you know they yeah right it's all good but um it was definitely frazzled and i just there were years though because i went a period where all the hits stopped and it was like like 2015 to 2020 was tough and i had to reinvent myself again you know so i feel like it's always been like a little if i if i imagine myself doing this yeah i'm like walking on heels but i'm stumbling you know do you think the people you were celebrating during those eight years when you're saying you know you're you're going to these award shows and you're clapping for some of your friends and your husband and all these people from 2009 to climb through 2015 are just you know legendary hits were those people cheering for you who the artists are those people i think so nashville definitely i mean i don't know if you feel that when you come but there's that community you know there's definitely some that that you know aren't rooting for you but um i definitely have always felt the love from nashville especially my crew you know um there's definitely those people that that i that aren't fans but um for the most part i do feel the love and especially we've all kind of worked together in some capacity yeah it's a small town or used to be but yeah you kind of all work together somewhere or you had a publishing deal together or whatnot so 2015 to 2020 why did the doors close i don't know it was really weird it felt like just the water turned off and i wasn't doing anything as a writer or the songs coming out the songs just getting like i would get songs cut like the way i talk with morgan wallen but it would die at 30 you know like i would get these songs recorded but it just it was weird and i mean you know i think i've changed publishing deals i'm sure that i can't remember all the dates and details um but i was working as hard as ever i don't know i mean it could have been just a headspace it could have been also what was going on in country music like i said right now in the last five years with someone like luke combs came to town i was like yes i know i mean i know exactly what to do you that era there were some artists that i just didn't you know have as much to give to um i don't know that's a good question what's advice you give to a writer that is that's had hits but doesn't have hits now oh yeah i heard someone i think it was eric church recently talking about this i really believe that if you want to be a songwriter like and not go crazy you have to get used to the highs and the lows and the peaks and the valleys like if you're someone that needs like you know killing it all the time rolling sevens you know it's going to be a hard run you know for me like when i told you i made that decision like i want the long haul i've found that i'm okay to kind of settle in and go okay well it's hard though year three you start going you know at year five i was like really worried but i can handle the the heartbreaks a little more maybe because i've just had my heart broken so much by the business um but yeah i think you just gotta really just keep grinding and just almost like don't look up just stay in the zone just keep writing write your way through it it's interesting because you know having you know morgan wallen songs and luke combs songs in in this part that you're thinking of as as a um is is an interesting thing your bar ends up getting set really high And I think that's another part is a song coming out on an album that's great. You're like, okay, that's fine. A song that might even be a moderate hit. You're like, okay, it's hard when your bar is higher. What does a song have to do for you to feel like it achieves your best? That's a really good question. I thought of this when Ain't No Love in Oklahoma, I had out with Luke Combs two years ago. And it is, to answer your question, like it did all the things. So it got to write it for a movie, which I love. I love writing for film. So it got to be in the Twister movie. It also went on to be on a radio hit. It went number one on the country charts. Amazing. It got nominated for a Grammy for Best Song in a Motion Picture. And then like my kids laughed, it went viral. You know, like it's played on the Oklahoma like football team. Like it's just one of those songs. It's like that to me is ringing all the bells. Do your. And I love the song. Do your kids listen to your music? I mean, do yours? They tolerate it, you know, they're excited. I'm fortunate that the age of my kids, like my daughter, 17, like she is the Megan Maroney. And so, you know, I've been listening to her music for a long time. And I feel like I have a really good perspective when I do write with Megan, because I'm raising a daughter that's, you know, not far off from the people that she's singing to. So, yeah, my kids definitely listen. They'll get excited when I'll play them a song like the song I have out right now with Reggie. They remember the work tape, the day that we wrote it. I played it for them. I was like, y'all got to tell me this is not a hit, you know, pick them up from school. And they were already singing the chorus by the third chorus. They had memorized it. It was just one of those songs. I was like, it's got to be a hit, right? And so they get excited to hear like it now being on the radio. But it's got to be weird for them, you know, because it's probably like normal to them, but like surreal. I don't know. Yeah, I play my my kids hear me writing songs, but they're so young. They're so young. Yeah. But, you know, we had our our our billboard in Times Square last week and they came to New York and we showed, you know, to to have them see that it was like for me and my wife was really important to them. It was like, this checks out. Yes, of course. You're on this billboard right now. That's not normal, but that's cool. Yes. My son did. I did something along the lines of I want to be on a billboard. And I was like, that's that's cool. He's like, can you buy me one or type type thing? Or can you order me one? Can you order me one? You're like, well, it doesn't totally work that way, but you can get there. It's just. Yeah, I don't. This is not how I expected to get there. Anyway, it's a separate story. But I want to know the story a little bit about Ain't No Love in Oklahoma, because it. It's obviously what you were talking about. It checked all the boxes. But the day you write that song still, there's no guarantee. So tell me about the day that you write Ain't No Love in Oklahoma. So Jonathan Singleton, Luke Combs producer, is an old friend of mine. He's also from Jackson, Tennessee. And we had written for the Angry Birds movie. So I wrote Angry Birds one with Lake Shelton and then Angry Birds two with Luke. And so when they got approached to write for the Twister movie, I was like, they called me, which is great. But there was a huge snowstorm, an ice storm coming through Nashville. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not missing this right. I don't care how I get there. I have to get out. And of course, Jonathan lives way out in the country. So me and Luke met at this McDonald's and like drive in on chains just to get out to Jonathan's house. And it's crazy. But we sat down and they had a lot. We sat down and they had a lot of that going, the track for it. And I was just blown away. I mean, it's such an aggressive track. And Luke had already talked to the director and the producers and knew what they needed. And it was just an easy write. And what was so neat is, you know, y'all's time, the time change with L.A., we were able to write the song at 10, 11 o'clock our time. So we just sent it in and waited until y'all woke up, the L.A. office woke up. And we were able to sit there and write a whole nother song, which wound up making it on his next record. What was that song? It's called, oh boy, you put me on the spot. Well, is it on his father's and son's records? I'll have to think on it. But the director right away is like, y'all nailed it. And we're like, it's just that easy? And Luke went in there and sang it and killed it. Yeah, he's so good. He's so good. Also former guest on this podcast. Yeah. Shout out Luke. And Megan Roney, also a former guest. And my favorite, Olivia Deen. I'm a huge fan. She's great. No Caller ID is fantastic. Thank you. That's a good song. Thank you. That's a really fun song. Writing with, what I like about, you know, when you're talking about the world, those eight years of figuring out what you're doing and that there wasn't the kind, the kinds of artists that you. Yeah. Like, it feels like Megan's on the, lyrically in the same space as these grittier writers and sonically very sheen compared to, you know, some of that. And, and so it's cool to see even the, uh, the, the cleaner version of female country now is risky and it's exciting and it's, but as you were saying, working with all these men. And what separates Megan Maroney from other female artists? I mean, she is such a great songwriter by herself. Um, she genuinely is so good with words and she knows exactly what her audience wants to hear. And she knows how to like, I love her relationship with her fans. It's kind of like Taylor, you know, she just knows what they, they've grown up together. They're growing up together. And I have so much trust in her. I have so much trust when she has a line. Cause she'll be like, Oh, my fans will get this. I'm like, okay. You know, I, I trust you. Um, she's so witty. She listened to a lot of Casey and, um, we have a lot of, I think some of the same influences. Um, and she just, she's just great with words, lyrics. She trusts me to do my thing. And, um, it's just a, a great, right. She's just a great songwriter. When you write, do you start with concept first melody first? Yeah. You said the clients. Climb started with melody first. Back then with a melody. Are you a, are you a concept first or a melody first writer? I'm both. Definitely both. All the above. Um, like never say never was just a title, you know? Um, so many times I just am kind of winging it and walking in the room and I don't typically have a lot of concepts. I would say that's my weakest link. Like I genuinely need more concept writers because I feel like I'm best when I'm in the director role. Where I'm like, I see the whole picture. Like mine would be, it was just a title and Connie's phone. And I saw the whole thing. I saw so much more than we even wrote in the song. Like I saw the full movie. I saw the relationship. I saw the breakup, you know? So I'm, I think I'm best in that role when like an editor and I kind of help people get there, but definitely we'll walk in the room with a melody or, um, a concept. Um, for sure. It's just, every day is a different day for me. Yeah. Have you ever tried? Have you ever tried actually, when you say you, you feel like you're sort of the director. Yeah. Have you ever tried, and your dad's an artist, you know, have you ever tried directing? No, but I was, I was telling a friend that when we got here to town, I was like, there was in those, those, it was actually 10 years till I finally had the hit was like the came out. So a full 10 years of floundering. There was this little moment where I thought about being a screenwriter. And I had a couple, like, I took a couple people to coffee, which I can't remember who, who was at the time, but I was very interested in screenwriting. I love. Did you ever do it? No, I still don't know how to do it. And still, I would put that on like a bucket list. Like if I could just be in a room one day with a screen, I'd love to watch how they work. And, um, I know a lot of actors. I'm not necessarily interested in that. I love filmmaking. And I love screenwriting. And I'm always like, when I watch movies, I just listen to the words. The way, you know, they probably listen to songs. The, you know, with the theater, we had the director, we had the whole thing. But I was just like, let me just try. Yeah. But there wasn't this. Then I got in this fear. Once you start, we're like, what am I doing? And then you, you start working like out. like really detailed outlines and then yeah it's not dissimilar i i think if you you do all this homework when you're going into sessions but if you went in and it's not just writing the title it's not just writing the concept it's writing the concept and then okay what's the motivation of this this song and then how do i structure it where the chorus is going to be you know uh if the course is the title and your pre-course is sort of how to get there and your verses are the you know i think that i would like it because i already write like that i already write very you should like i think about the whole like the second someone tells me a title or a concept i and anyone that writes with me knows like i have to know all the part the motivation where we're going how we're gonna get like i have to know the whole story and the second i see it it's like a dog with a bone and i'm it's like i i'm i'm in you know the hard part is the buy-in for a song is you show up and when you don't nail it you go home still yeah and you still might have had a good day yeah but the buy-in for writing a script is you're gonna have a few of those days and it's but it's gonna take you months and then you go and you show somebody and they're gonna be like me and you spent so much time you spent so much time so you have to just keep going and you have to i i respect those guys you know and and also when you're a songwriter you own your copyrights right and when you're a screenwriter you sell your copyrights you know the studio buys the ability to exploit this copyright you have no say they can buy it and then they could find some other screenwriter to change it and you get no royalties unless it's in your contract wow so the screen actors is not screen actors go the uh of the writers guild they you know they're a union because they're not independent contractors like songwriters wow we can't unionize because we all own our copyrights yeah but those people are work for hire especially if you're if you work on a tv show you know you own nothing you show up there and you you write but you own nothing if you're an author you own it if you're a screenwriter you own until you sell it right you don't have this ongoing royalty yeah it's also different nobody's remaking your script yeah totally the way that they would a song like i don't know if you're a screenwriter you own it until you sell it the climb's been remade a thousand times and every single time you get paid because you are the right you are the ip owner that's right it's just a different situation it's just neat i think that i've got a lot of respect for screenwriters when you get nominated for songwriter of the year did that make sense i mean it made sense to us the voters it made sense to us who are involved in the thing like i don't know if you're a screenwriter you're a songwriter you're a screenwriter like of course but to go from you said that wow the it you know talking about the climb like this isn't supposed to happen yeah just little me yeah and then you know you know you're the best at what you do i still feel that i still feel that way for sure i mean i definitely keep a very real life i tend to go back home a lot and like i'm i'm around yes i'm around a lot of famous people very talented people very accomplished people but i'm also i try to keep it very real a lot of my friends or nurses or just common folk you know so i it definitely feels weird to be on the grammy stage in any way you know and just um you know you feel like am i deserving of this but i do feel like you know i've definitely worked hard and it does feel good to be acknowledged for sure um not to put too much merit and stuff like that it's just like you know a lot of people could be like oh done you know and i'm like next like what's the next thing you know like i don't want to get too caught up in it do you have any imposter syndrome i mean maybe don't we all right like i definitely feel like sometimes like it hurts when you know that there's someone back home that's a great great singer too or a great songwriter too you know but also i heard um billy strings did an incredible interview one time where they he has imposter syndrome and they were like you know how how do you work through it he said i had a therapist one time asked me like well how many people back home were good singers and guitar players and good with money and good with people and good you know and worked every day and didn't show up late like when you start adding all that up you realize okay that's why i'm here right is all those things and so i've tried to give myself some grace there yeah earned i i think that there's this weird this weird feeling of um at the end you know wherever today is and looking at a career that spans longer than that first cut you know from you know when you look at that whole thing and some of us just in awe of the fact that this is how it rolled out it's crazy you know um you've obviously worked with a million amazing artists but morgan wallen is now the top of the world yeah what is it about morgan wallen that makes him great he's so authentic like i mean you can just stand at this coffee pot with him and just be like you're so you know like he's not trying to be anybody else he's got so much charisma and just star power um just being around him i that was the first feeling i got and i mean he had just come off the voice i mean he had nothing going didn't have a record deal yet like and i could feel it just being around him i mean you know when you're like around someone you know like this is a star i could just feel that sense the other thing that people don't i don't know if they really realize what a great singer he is like yeah and i didn't even really until he cut don't think jesus i was like whoa because that's a full octave like because i wrote it with a guy so like i would sing one part and we'd flip up and i mean but morgan just without even trying can sing it um he's a great singer um and he's just he's really just real you know he sings about stuff that he knows and i'm very drawn to artists that are like that i've learned that um and usually with my publisher that's one of the questions i ask is like you know are they authentic like who are they do they know who they are because i can almost roll with anybody as long as they know who they are but if they're coming to me to help create them or like i don't know if they're going to be able to do it i don't know if they're going to like brand them or help them i'm just not your girl there's some great writers that are good at that that's i tend to get excited about what you're excited about and like oh let's write about that you know even though i might not know what the hell they're even talking about but if it excites them that excites me and so morgan's very much like that i mean whether he's rapping or if it's dirt country or if he wants to do a jason isbell song or like you can tell like he's got his hands on it that's a first of all the skill of no you said well you know you know what that's like when you're around somebody who has the it thing i actually don't think that that's normal even amongst the best songwriters producers and our people if it was normal everyone would be in the room with the right people but you're actually putting in the sweat equity with the luke combs and with the morgan wallens of the world and you know you're there early you're there early in the basement that's really that's not a normal skill yeah that is like a really advanced skill really yeah yeah i probably miss a lot of them i mean there's a lot of artists i miss because i didn't wasn't there in the beginning but um i tend to like when i met laney wilson i was like you're my sister like we like we felt like we were related like and a lot of these artists a lot of them i just really relate to right now on country music and they feel like kindred spirits laney is so cool she's the best she's so fun it's a it's a um it's like this intimidating cool she's so cool what makes laney so special in a crowded space like the music industry right yeah just that authenticity again and she just she's so humble and so endearing i mean everything from her accent to her i mean she's just it doesn't matter how big she gets how many private planes or awards when you talk to laney she's looking you dead in the eye and she like sees your soul like she is just a soulful person and um i'm so excited the world sees it what i'd always seen you know that's what's so fun about our job is you start in the beginning with these people and um it's it's been wild it's a while to watch right what's going on with riley green i mean we've i've been riding with him since he was making little youtube videos and now um he's on the voice like it's so wild that we're here i saw it all along yeah that's just not a normal yeah i wish it was i because i i'm not bad at it but that's exceptional if you do it once in your career if an anr person does that once in their career they're set for life yeah do you know what i mean and you're talking about your you know these people finding someone on youtube or somebody just left the voice these are not people that you that you bank on most of the time and most publishers are probably not even pushing you to write with them they're just so talented though and i feel like when i write in the first first time in the room with them, you're like, "Whoa." Do you always do reconnaissance for your schedule? I do really try to. I'm so embarrassed if I don't because I don't like to not know where all the bodies are buried. Like I would, I know the songs you've written. It's important to me to know. That's scary. And no, but I just mean, or like when I write with someone, I would be mortified if I was like, let's write you a patriotic song. Like, yeah, my last single was Born in the USA or something, you know, like I would, that's rude. You know, it's like I want to make sure they know like your time's valuable, my time's valuable. It's amazing how much the artists are surprised when you do any homework and you're like, no, I listened to your music before. I try to do that even with, you know, with the interviews, make sure that I'm listening to it. Sure, you try. You try. It's a lot. But I do try to do recon and I try, like I said, to find the weak spot. Where can I get in? What is not being said? Like it would. It would kill me to know that like you're sitting with this artist and let's say they have a, they have this other side of them that you're like, why have you never exposed that? Let's write that. I Drive Your Truck, we haven't talked enough about. Oh, man. Because here you're talking about, you know, obviously The Clown, mine would be, a lot of these, these are massive songs. But I Drive Your Truck is one of those infuriating songs for a writer who's like. Of course, of course, how is it, you know, it's, it's sort of in this, this, like this, the house that built me kind of thing where you're like, yeah, yeah, I mean, we all, well, how did we not all write the, some of these songs? Like, what, what happened? How do you write, how do you write that song? How do you, who? How does that even come out? Well, and when it, when it's written, it's like, yeah, there's so many things that are going to work against that song, even if it's great. Yeah. Tell me. Tell me about the journey of I Drive Your Truck. I'd love to. It's really probably my favorite story of all my songs. So I was pregnant with the twins. Just thinking I'm probably never going to write again, you know, because I already have this toddler. I mean, I got twins coming. I'm like, I'm just working through my calendar till my due date. And I had on my book that day, Connie Harrington, who I went on later to write, mine would be with as well. But this is me and her. It's just a two way. It's just me and another girl. And I'm thinking, why am I even really, I'm pregnant. It's hot. It's July or June. It's June. I'm like, I don't even want to go to work. Try to explain what that is. We just went through that. So like, explain what that is for all the men out there who have no idea what it's like to be pregnant. Explain what being pregnant in June or July is like. With twins. With twins. Well, first of all, you have a million high risk appointments. So like every day I only can be there a certain because you have to really make sure that. The babies are growing at the same rate and all this very specific. So I'm hot. I'm swollen. I'm so massive. Like I'm probably 280 pounds. That's what I feel. At least nothing fits. I'm hot. It's I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I see Connie Harrington, my book, which you could easily go. She'd be fine if I canceled. You know, she's a girl. She gets it. But I'm such a workhorse. When in doubt, just go to work. You know, I'm just very my work ethics high. And so when we sat down that day and like, like I said, that's the arrow that I was like, I'm not writing any more female songs like I really want to get in these guys on these guys records. And so I was like, I'm not singing. And she was like, well, I'm not singing. So I was like, well, I don't know what we're going to do today then. And so I was like, let's just talk. So we start talking. She's like, well, I did have this idea that was haunting me. And she pulls out this post-it note. That's where she keeps. All her song titles. And she starts to tell me a story that she was driving home the day before on Memorial Day. And she was listening to NPR. And it was a special about basically a dad that was trying to get flags placed on his son's grave and other people's graves. And and she said, I just caught the tail end of it. And then she starts to just weep. And I'm like, what's the title? And she's like, well, I don't really have the title. But he said and she'd start crying again. And this takes like 20 good minutes for me. To finally get her to say he basically the interviewer said, well, what do you want to do to honor your son today for Memorial Day? And he said, I just have no idea what to do, but drive his truck. That's all. That's the only way I feel him. And Connie just she's crying. I'm crying. I'm pregnant, hormonal. And I'm like, we are absolutely writing this song, you know, and I was flooded with visions of my granddaddy's truck in Jackson, Tennessee. Where my mom, my mom, my mom, when we lost him, I was 10. It was tragic. He was killed in a car accident. She kept his truck parked in the driveway. And every summer I'd go back and I could go get in the truck and I could. He was a carpenter. I could his tool belt and his change in the ashtray and all his all my little granddaddy. I could get there. I could smell him still and feel him still. And so I immediately went to that truck. And I was like, I know the truck. It's a 1986 Sierra, you know. And we just started. We just started going lyric, lyric, lyric. She's writing. Her dad was a POW in Korea. So, like, we definitely could draw in a lot for us. But I kept hitting this place every time she'd want me to pick up the guitar to sing. I was like, I just I don't trust myself. This is a guy song. And I said, we have to call in a writer. We just have to. And this is where I really hope people think, you know, it can be you can be stingy with an idea and be like, oh, it could be a two way. Right now. But I hope people hear me say, like, sometimes it's better to if you're not getting it done, call in the third, call in the fourth, call in the 10th, whatever it takes to get the song. That's what I believe, at least. And that day we made the right decision and we called Jimmy Erie and he came in the next time we got together and he had the most beautiful melody kind of going and he got it. And we just we wrote the song and it was truly magical. And at that moment, we didn't care if it ever was recorded. We knew we had nailed whoever said those words on NPR. We nailed it. And so we wrote the song and our our plugger, Rusty Gadsden, was like, this is song of the year. And we're like, your lips to God's ears. You know, like, go make it happen. And he did. He he pitched to Lee Bryce, who was not even looking for a ballad. Lee Bryce cut it. It went to number one. But the really fun part of the story that means so much to me is that when we had the song, we had the song. We have number one parties in Nashville. They give you plaques and you give the speech and all this. But we were like, there's no way we're going to have a number one party if we don't find the guy that said that. So we went through, you know, hours and hours and hours of NPR tape looking for this and finally found him. And we found the episode. We went online and we zoomed in and there was the truck and the gravestone. The whole thing was there. The flag. We zoom in and we see that the day that we wrote the song. Is the day that Jared Monty died. And it was like, that's why when you say how much do I how much is spirituality a part of my job? It's 100 because I I'm telling this guy's story. I mean, I knew it right then. I was like, we were there as a vessel for Jared Monty to tell the story for the Gold Star families that lose people and they have to keep going on. They paid the ultimate sacrifice. We we brought Paul Monty in. We had a big steak dinner. He's sitting next to me and he said, what other songs have you written? I was like, sir, I don't know. You probably don't know anything I've written unless you listen to pop radio. He goes, yeah, I've been kind of. I said, well, I wrote a song called The Climb. He literally dropped his fork and he said, I played that at Jared's funeral. Oh, yeah. And we knew we were tied. Me and Jared and me and Paul. This whole. This was no accident. And I went on to find out that he was Laurie McKenna's schoolteacher. Like, yeah, like so many of someone general that I know was his commanding officer, Jared. I mean, it's just it's if you want to go really do a deep dive. Amazon Prime made a movie called It All Begins with a song that I'm in and we actually go to Jared's house. And but that song is just such a gift. It's it's a gift. It's a gift for anybody. I lost my mom in my early 20s to ovarian cancer. Like anybody that's lost a parent or anybody, you know, just you don't know what to do with that grief. And to me, I think we we just captured grief in a nutshell. And I have so many letters and people, you know, reaching out. And it's just been a real gift. It's so hard to write. A it's so easy to write a song. Yeah, it's so hard to write a hit. It's hard. It's hard to write really almost impossible to write an evergreen. But then to have something that is, you know, it's not just that it's it's it's so brave. It's brave for a lead like credit where credit's due. Sure. There are other people who. Sure. Would never record. Most artists would not record. Totally. And credit to Rusty, too. Like I saw him last week and an MPA stuff in New York. And like. He's one of the best. who's ever done it in that space and you know the song plugger in this equation is like is a is is fascinating too you know who helps connect the dots on on something so magical it's like all those things had to work out yep for you to meet the family you know if if one if one thing russie doesn't say like this is the song of the year if lee doesn't cut it and then if it doesn't what if it's not the single or what is it died at 50 because it was another truck song at that time there were a lot of truck songs on the radio and we were worried sick about it um yeah there's so many things i was trying to uh this is an aside but i was trying to brandy clark not on on this just because we're friends and she's uh one of my favorites but we're talking about that era and and you know everyone's writing a truck song when she would write it just sort of inauthentic because she's just not yeah yeah that's a truck a truck writer girl yeah she's a she's a different kind of writer and you get in this phase of trying to compete with what everyone else is writing at the time yeah and it's impossible not to when every label is like we need a song that's just like you know this and just like that do you ever feel like you are swayed in the way you write by what a label needs i learned probably in those years of 2015 to 2020 that i'm not really good at um trying to write things that i'm especially like when i would come here to write you know there's so many artists on the on the charts that i didn't know like it's like how could i just like when some writers come to nashville and they want to write country songs it's like i know what i'm good at and i try to stay in that arena but that doesn't mean that if someone comes through that you know because i i have a lot of other influences like i'm very influenced by boys to men or mariah carey like a lot of my melodies come from that kind of stuff too so like i i'm open but i definitely think i've been fortunate these last couple years that things are just clicking because it's what i do it's in my wheelhouse but when it isn't in my wheelhouse i do struggle some you know it's definitely not something i'm good at to you know i'm not good at it's not something i'm good at pivot so hard into something that i wouldn't listen to or know a lot about even if you respect the genre you respect the artist if you you know the mistake la writers make when they come to nashville is to try to think like oh i'll show these guys how to write you know a pop melody and these that's not what we do here we're story first storytellers and then you know and nashville writers who are like i'm gonna show these guys how to write a lyric that matter we don't really need that that's not really what we're doing here we're trying about emotion we're trying to get you to like feel something yes and and you you can try to do it but it's it's really hard unless you have that artist at the right time and the right thing and some of it is sticking through those hard moments it's that uh for pop it's like this 2020 beginning of covid till almost now where there's this you know uh this anti-pop bedroom whisper kind of like all the all the rap stuff and then it becomes this like same trap hi-hat same sort of uh xanaxed out kind of performance and then all these songwriters who want to sing like this and real quiet versus singing in an arena because they weren't oh and i'm like the guy who wants to write like lyrics or melodies that people want to sing in an arena same and until there's an arena tour yeah that all these songs that were coming out it's like well i don't even know where to go how do you do it do you do you try to do you just wait and kind of idle time until those come back around or do you try i really like writing 100 songs and that kind of keeps me in some place where um it has some catharsis for me that reminds me of why i got into this thing yeah uh also writing you know writing for theater changes a lot of that because you know it's these these ridiculous songs and uh in musicals you can write any song you want if it fits the story and you can't you know lee brice isn't gonna sing a song about a baker liking a song that i'm like liking a butcher but you can write that in theater and not that you're actually doing that but the idea of you can live in this world where you can write whatever you want and it so it happened that i had some shows happening all around the development in that way and i think that helped distract it yeah and i really like the business side which you said that you're not that into yeah and i love it you do i love publishing that's great i like the numbers i love the advocacy stuff i like the grammys i like being involved in some of these things that that are not writing lyrics or melodies but i still feel like you're creating music you're helping i like the math of all that that's cool but i don't know i mean that the being patient it's nice that when all these k-pop groups coming out then all of a sudden they take outside songs and then you get these artists who are now doing well in the pop space and now they need those writers again who write those kinds of songs and all of a sudden you're like i got a a grip of these songs that you're like wow i didn't know i wouldn't have guessed that 10 years ago that that's where my career would lead is to like k-pop and theater but like if you ask me to what i did yesterday it's like those two things and it's just i know just keep your head down and go that's always the answer people are always like what would you give you know new a new songwriter advice i'm always like you don't want to know because it's the same thing it's like keep writing i mean i will say this i probably spend more i spend more time here writing country songs and in a weird there aren't a lot of places to take outside songs right so you know you want to at least create seeds and do these things and it's you can escape also from yeah la sure you know if you just spend two days working on a song where you're worried about like where you're telling a story that's yeah in another place then you're on vacation yeah it's true anyway we could talk about this for hours and and i i really appreciate you doing this i really wanted you to do this for a long time i wanted to do it because you know i listen to your to your podcast i love it i mean your discography is awesome uh but again mostly because you're you keep releasing really brave songs that these people whether it's natural or not it just seems so easy it seemed i know it's not but the songs seem so effortless in the fact that they're consistent your your discography is now over you know it's over 15 plus years of hits that's crazy that's crazy awesome it's very cool it's hall of fame shit and uh and it's an honor so thank you for blessed thank you for doing this thank you for shining a light on songwriters too hey easy to do when you have people like you there you go