Ep. 258: Suki Waterhouse on Loveland, Motherhood, and Finding Her People

Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's episode is starring a star who's gone from rising star to shooting star in less than a decade. She writes Dreamy devastatingly beautiful music because her art is in a malgamation of the fashion runways and film sets and festival stages. She's graced her whole career. She's one of Indie Pop's most captivating voices and she's here to share her voice with us today and The Writer Is Zooky Waterhouse. Hi. Hi. That was hilarious introduction. Well, we were talking about being parents and being in music. That's how we started the day. Yeah, we were weeping. How's being a parent and doing music? It's, yeah, it's intense, isn't it? So intense. It's intense. Why do you find it intense? Why do I find it intense? Because I feel like, because I plugged in to everything that's happening and I didn't know that kind of pole to be that like all the time. Yeah, there's like this quote that kills me with it, which is, you know, being a parent is only hard for good parents. Then, yeah, that's actually a release, that's a really sweet thing. That's a nice way to look at it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, yeah, I want to be around all the time. It's like, then, but then at the same time, at the same time, like, obviously, we, like, we care about what we do so much. And I know that it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be feasible for like, suki, the human to not do anything else. For me, like, personally, you know what I mean? Totally. Like, for me as, like, the human I am, like, I have to, you know, I have to work and I have to, like, make music. And, and I know that like, and I know that she's going to be proud of me and be like, my mom's fucking cool. And like, she's got a whole album of photos of like her on, like, two tours. And like, I do think that I can do both. I really do. And I do think I can be a great parent and, um, and do what I do. But it's just like the, yeah, like the you as the parent, the you as the musician. And then like, yeah, that, that, sorry, what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say, like, do, I think I can do both, but like, um, like, it's just, it's just like hard for like you as the person, like, you're kind of just like, you're quite afraid. Does she see you as different people? Can she differentiate this is mom, the mom, and this is mom, the rock star? Um, she, like, knows what I do now. She, like, points out in a story, but we were looking at jobs the other day. And she was like, that's, um, that, like, that's your job, like, the, the girl with the guitar. And like, I'll be like, you know, at the moment, I'm like, practicing for tour. So she's like, she, she watches me like play guitar and she, um, like, she'll say, like, mommy songs, like, I'll show her like my music videos and stuff. And so it's, it's cool. She does, like, have some idea. And then I, I mean, a lot of the time, like, today, it's like, I have hair and makeup over and, uh, like, you know, everything she says, she's pretty involved in that. She's like, want, she loves like, sitting on my lap and, you know, she likes looking at the nail colors and all of that stuff. So she, she, yeah, she's involved and there's always people around and like, and I think, and so she's like, very social and fun. But it's crazy. I mean, I do this. And then I've got like, she's on FaceTime to her dad who today is like covered in blood with like huge black circles around his eyes. And I'm like, hey, like, do, like, it isn't fine. And we're just like, it's fine. And you know what? They, they don't, she really doesn't actually seem to notice. Yeah. She was, she notices the bake. She noticed, she knows, she calls him like, daddy Batman now because he's always dressed up like that for like the next seven months, like whenever he's on FaceTime. Yeah. That's a strange character to have as your parent. I think he thinks their parents are super, or is a, is a superhero, but that becomes more obvious when they are dressed as one. Is there a song that she requests most? No, we haven't got, she's not quite, she hasn't quite got the recall of the songs yet. But I did obviously when I was making my album, I would like test drive them on her. You know, do she approve of all of them? Or were there some where she's like, I don't like that one. Next. I'm trying to, yeah, no, there's don't, you know, she's in like a, like a no phase at the moment. So sometimes she can just hit me with like, no, I don't like that. And I'll be like, oh, I mean, like down. I've got to take off the album. This pre-courses incredible. Yeah. But I did test, I did test quite a lot. I did test them on her. And like, it did, but definitely, like, influence me. If she, if she liked, you know, had a little dance going, we were driving to Malibu yesterday. And my, my son asked to hear a song called Stay Positive that I did in the wrong man. And we listened to it. And when we got to the playground that's up there, my daughter just kept singing it throughout running around. And I was like, this is because I never imposed my song. Like, I don't want my kids to think of it in that way. Where I'm, it's one thing when they ask to hear it. It's another thing to play it in that way. And they, and the fact that she likes the song enough to sing it by herself, but really felt like I like achieved something. They listen to songs with the one I'm working on a project. And I'm like, in it. And they hear all the demos and they hear the versions of it. Yeah. But I don't know. I'm like, I'm nervous to, I'm nervous to, I'd rather than hear like, you know, Elton John and, you know, whatever, Billy Joel or whatever, and get into that than listen to the music I write. And yet, on the other hand, they've heard everything I've done. Cool. They hear everything. They see everything. Like, yeah, I'm kind of, I don't know. I'm kind of just like show them everything. Show everything. What was your childhood like with music? Or just like, what was my childhood? How about both? Okay. So you were born. Yes. I was born. Yeah. I was born. I was actually born with, let's go right by. I was born with the, I'm the little quarter on my neck. So it was like a fairly stressful birth, but it was fine. We made out. I was born in London. I was born in Chizek. Do you know Chizek? How do you know that about the umbilical cord? Well, because it's like a, you know, it's like a talking point of the birth. Yeah. Do you know a lot of details about? Does your mom, like, their, their family? My dad gave me quite a lot of details. So like too many details, actually. Yeah. I caught both my kids. This is way too much information, but I caught both my kids. You caught them. Like, caught them. And so like, I feel like I was like, yeah. No, I'm. Of course we're going to, they're going to hear all those stories. It could. Right. But that's so beautiful. It's love. That's a wonderful thing to happen. There was an artist who like who told me, is I, that he did that. And I felt like, um, I couldn't be challenged in that way and not do it. Also. And then I did, because he was like, it's a beautiful thing. And then you do it. But I got everyone's like, why do you do it? And he was, it was stunning. It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Yeah. It was excellent. I mean, that's, that's happening. Yeah. Hey, guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of Man the Writer is, if you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right. Cause we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback. You can hang with us directly and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community and maybe most importantly to me, you were going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie X, X and Sabrina Carpenter and Lynn Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. So you were, you had an unbilical cord. Yeah, I had an unbilical cord. I was born in, uh, born in Chiswick. My mom, Elizabeth and my dad, so they met in a hospital. My dad was a kind of young surgeon. My mom, a nurse, a cancer nurse and they met over, my mom says they met over a patient with a decaying buttock. My dad has a completely different story that she like came down the hallway and like took his breath away. Um, but so they, yeah, they, they kind of, they, they were like young doctors and nurses living in West London and I came along like pretty quickly and then I've got another sister who's two years younger than me, Amy, who's an actress and a director. She just directed like, she directs like music videos for me too. She's very cool. Amazing. I like love my siblings so much and then I've got, uh, then they had twins, um, a boy and a girl, right? Quite a lot later actually like, they're like seven years younger than me. So I got like little brothers and sisters that I grew up with that. I kind of felt like I raised with them because I was like seven or eight by that time. So different than older sister. Yeah. In that way. Yeah. What was the, I mean, that doesn't seem like a hot bed of art when you have two parents that are in medicine. No, but like, well, I think my, I think they are, they kind of, they actually are in their ways. like my dad is, my mom's like kind of, my mom's like, my mom's sort of like, is a very like zany artistic person. And like a very emotionally, she's trained in psychology too. She's incredibly like emotionally aware. She's sort of the person that like my friends would tell all their secrets too. And I would actually get kind of like jealous when I was a kid 'cause my, like she would like have all the secrets 'cause everyone, she was like incredibly like entrusted, warm person like, yeah, just like crazily giving and kind of like, you know, the center of the household like whilst, yeah, whilst kind of, she's like always volunteering, she's that person. She like cares, cares a lot about her like community. And I think like everything, everything like nice and caring and warm about me is like from her and my dad is, my dad's a doctor and he's like very logical. He's incredibly ambitious. He's like, I always described him as like, yeah, he's like, he's like the figure that was always doing a lot like reading so many books a week, like doing a Latin A level and like training in like Greek studies. Like my dad's like a crazy learner, learning different languages, speaks French, speaks Spanish. Well, that explains the language you use as a lyricist or in the songs that you write or it's not, it's just not passive, it's really colloquially, as I can't say, complicated in a lot of ways. Like there's really colorful words. And so I'm sure that having, maybe that comes, yeah, maybe that does come for my dad. Sometimes I've, yeah, he's like written, yeah, he's like written me poetry before and he's just, yeah, he's just written a book that's gonna be coming out in a couple of minutes. I know, it's crazy. He's like written the whole fiction book. So he's like a, like an ambitious freak and he would call himself as an artist 'cause he's like a, he's a cranial facial and plastic surgeon. So he would, yeah, he would call himself an artist, you know? - Yeah. (laughs) - When did people recognize you could sing? - I don't, well, actually, yeah, it's funny 'cause when I was, yeah, when I was, I actually always think I was like a really good singer when I was like younger. And then I'd, and then like I think I started like, when I was like, I would do these, you know, I was in like these weekend like stage camps and doing like plays and I was like the kid that was, you know, it's getting up and like singing somewhere over the rainbow. And I remember being like good and like having a really powerful strong voice. And I was like training a lot. And you know, and some is doing these like pop star academy things and entering into competitions and doing like, I remember doing like, I think I did like a, I've done like an Etta James song and I'd lost, I remember losing out to the girl that did the all saints, you know, a few questions that I need to know. - It's a British. - Yeah, I know it was like, and yeah, I remember, yeah, I definitely remember being around a lot of kids that were, there was like a kid that I was friends with that did like, Lymna Zarabler. I remember being so mad that she got that job and like, you know, so weird we talked about theater before and how complicated it is to be a professional actor on stage. And here your childhood is a bit of doing musical theater first. - Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, we were, I was doing that. I was doing like, I remember I was like Dorothy and the Oz. And but it was kind of like, it was when I was in, I think everything changed for me quite a lot when I went to like my secondary school, which is when you were like 11. And that was like a co-ed school with boys and stuff. So I was quite like, I was quite like, I was like kind of the naughty kid in a very like all girls, very like buttoned up. Everyone was like incredibly well behaved. And like, I was doing my singing training all the time with like, this like, lady called Lucy D'Alephans who would like, tell me that I needed to like, she would always be like, she would always be like, telling me that I had to like, gain weight to be a good singer and I was like, too skinny to be a good singer, she was a big like, opera singer. And she was, and it's, yeah, it was funny, I remember. And then I remember like, and then like as I went to secondary school, I like, you know, yeah, I got, like that had, it was like, co-ed. And I just remember like all of that kind of very, that kind of structure through those years, falling away. I like, you know, like I started just, - Were you rebelling? - I all went to shit, yeah. - What did your parents think of that? - I think, no, I think they were like, there was some really difficult, yeah, there was some like difficult, difficult years. But I was like, I don't know, yeah, I was quite, they did have three younger children and it like all, I think now it seems, it's like easy to sort of, like now they obviously, now it's like all good. And it's like a long time ago, but at the time, it definitely wasn't. - I mean, you said you're a younger sister not the twins, but younger sister is a couple years younger. - Two years younger, yeah. - Did she follow you in your footsteps of rebellion? Or was she? - No, I was like the what? I was definitely like, I was the most. I was like, I had this, I think I just had this, I was like angry and I had like a big fire in me. And I was like, what are you angry at? - I was like angry, angry teenager, you know? I like suddenly just hated it. It's being a, you know, I hate, I suddenly like hated, hated my parents. Yeah, everything, you know, it's that thing where I'm like, I am getting out of, like I don't want to be, I don't want to have anyone be like the whole, I don't want to be like beholden to them. I want to go and like have my own life. And I just had this, yeah, this like huge, huge fire in me. And then I kind of had, I remember like sort of things at school, like having like a sort of a thing with another girl at school that I wanted to be friends with. And then she like, the sounds so ridiculous. And then she like kind of like stole the guy that I was going out with. And then all of the, all of the whole friend group then became, you know, friends with all of them. So then I was just sort of like isolated. And I just remember being like, fuck this, fuck this school, fuck these people. And that was like the end. That was like when I was a bit older, sort of doing GCSEs. But it was, it was all, it was all good at the end of the day because I think it was, that it made me go like, it made me like look outside of my school. And it just like, I kind of was onwards and out of it. I still have a couple of friends from school, like I, you know, but it was, there was some like kind of, that was an isolation and a kind of, and a kind of fuck this. I think that's the most motivating, I'm, I'm so much older than I was at that point, but I had a similar high school experience and I feel like I'm still, they're still a part of me that remembers the shit I went through. And I still, and maybe it's extreme in my head. I don't know if it was actually as bad as I thought it was, but I felt so motivated to prove all those people wrong. And it's still the strange driving force that is hard to get rid of. - Do you think that's probably like all of us that, some craziness? - Yeah, especially now when you look at what, two and a half years how fast that goes by, you know? - Like with all kids? - Yeah, I know. - So like, you know, when you're talking to somebody who's in high school and they're, and it's so heavy for them and you're like, well, that's four years, man, they'll go by like that. - You know, and, but when you're in high school, that four years lasts forever. - Yeah. - And it's a weird thing when it motivates you to move onward. - Yeah, and it's such a pivotal moment. And like every month and person that you meet in those, in those years and like getting out into the world and like becoming a grown-up and like going through gallhood and it's everything that happens to us, like is huge, isn't it? One of my best friends said to me a couple years ago was like, hey, do you wanna go have lunch with my priest? He's in town, my childhood priest. And I was like, I've never been the lunch of the priest. Why not? Let's see what happens. - So this isn't your priest? This is your friend's priest? - Yeah, okay, I don't have a priest. - Yeah. - And I went to this lunch. And by the way, he doesn't really, either. It's his like childhood priest. And he's a really successful actor. And he also has this like need to prove people from his childhood that prove them wrong or whatever it is. And that became the crux of this conversation. And the priest was like, yeah, but you have to give these people some credit for your success. 'Cause you wouldn't be there if it wasn't for that motivation. And some of the peace comes from thinking those people. - Yeah, right. And also like we're all, we're like kids. Can you think that girl herself? - Do you want me to think? - Could you do that? - No, could I? No, I'm like, we're literally all kids. And like no one's there. Yeah, it's like I don't, I don't actually, like, I hope. I'm not actually, you know, grudging, so like on kids, like, no. Yeah, no, that's what I mean. It's all part of the story. One of my favorite songs by Arthur Godfrey. It's called All Part, it's all part of the story, and it's weird. I think it's actually about, it's something to do with the priest. I remember, like something bad with the priest, but that song, I always, like, love that song, because it kind of taught, it's, yeah, it's all part of the story. It's like, I always think it's like all part of the, the mosaic and the masterpiece of your life. Did you write poetry through high school? Did you write music? You know, here you were singing when you were younger, doing somewhere over the rainbow and, and at a James or whatnot, and then, you know, does it, when you rebelled, was it putting music away or was music a part of your, your secondary school? Well, I think when I was a, I remember, I remember, I think it started with, it started with writing things, like journaling a lot, and sometimes those journals, I remember, like, those journals getting found. I was like a friend of mine maybe, or like, my parents finding it, and I was very dramatic. I remember being incredibly dramatic in the journals. And like, yeah, I was really dramatic. If I got into like a big disagreement with my parent, but this is like when I'm like 10 or 11, I'd be like, yes, my well. You know, like, I was that, yeah, I was a suit, I was super dramatic. Yeah. But then I remember like being kind of like, I remember being like 11 or 12, and there were these girls that were older than me, and they had like composed their own song for this like school showcase. And I remember the, I remember like exactly how the song goes. And it was like, I sat as, I sat as I cried empty bottle of wine, because still you're not mine. And I cried. And I was just like, oh, my God. This is the coolest thing. Because they used to have this like, there was like this white like pearly lip shine that they were all wearing when they were older. And like, at this point in London, like, all the girls were like putting like concealer on their lips. And it was just kind of this like beigey look that everyone had. But this girl, her name was Minty, and she had this, yeah, she had this like pearly, nivier lip stuff, and she, she would have, and she was like, just a rock god to me, like the coolest girl. And I remember once she like shoved her backpack into me, and like, she was, she was fierce. And like, I think she was just like, get out of my way. And like, I was like, I slammed into that. And I was still like, it's the best thing. Oh, she was just amazing. And she was like my first like, yeah, like female, like rock hero. And she performed the song. And I was, and that had that had like a huge impact on me. And I was like, wow. So I think then I started trying to like, I think I was basically doing like rip off songs of that song, you know, like kind of in my diary and like doing, you know, I knew like a couple of chords. And like started, yeah, started writing with a guitar teacher. I had like a very funny guitar teacher. And then what made them funny? He had like, I wonder if his stuff is, I'm not going to say his name, I don't know, is he had, he had a lot of like, he was an artist too. A lot of like very long songs on YouTube that were that were kind of like made, yeah, made up songs about very like literal things of his life. He probably would have done really well on like TikTok. And like, we're in this moment, you know, they were like funny kind of sketch songs. Yeah. Yeah. So at what point do you have so many, there's so much to, there's so many things. At what point did you play a song for, you know, your parents or your, your sister, or you're like, this is, this is one of those songs I'm writing in my diary and I'm working on this with a, with a guitar teacher. I wouldn't have been trying them to that, to my, to my, to show them to anybody. No, like, like, are there recordings of you doing any of these? The first song that I have recorded, there's so much stuff on my, on my, I have so much music that, unlike different styles as well, that I was kind of experimenting for years before, before I ever released anything. But there was like a guy that I'd met because this is like, so, you know, it's so before I ever had access to like a producer that had done anything, you know, anyone like I would be working with now. So I would like find, yeah, I was, I was going out a lot when I was really young. I would find, actually, I know who, yeah, no, actually, there was a guy, there's a guy who's actually a musician now, his name's Ben Khan, have you ever heard of him? I haven't. He's really amazing musician. Shut up, Ben. Yeah, he's, he's incredible. He's, he's a project out. It's, it's amazing. But he went to my school and we used to record, we used to record things together and another boy that, there were two guys in my, in my class that I remember, but I don't have a recording of that. The first, the first thing I have that's on the internet that I think I'd like been DMing with, I think I'd like DM'd with like a fan or something or like someone and or maybe put it up on YouTube and then someone else had put it up on YouTube with like a bunch of photos of me. It's still on the internet. It's a song called Stoned and that was like maybe 2000, maybe that was like 2006 or something. How does it go? Oh, fuck. I can't remember right now. It's completely gone. It's like my mom's favorite song. Yeah, I'm going to have to look it up. Yeah, it's completely gone. Yeah, it's actually cool. When you're in secondary school, you start working in modeling and some other stuff too, right? Yeah, so that was, yeah, that was kind of like, I feel like as an artist, you get, you walk through open doors, whatever they may be, you know, if it's being a model, if it's being, you know, an actor, if it's being a musician, you just kind of walk through open doors. So sure. And as a part of that, people, you know, there's this, people are as, who they are the day you meet them. So I think a lot of times them, if somebody sees you as, oh, this girl plays guitar, she's a guitarist and she's a model, she's a model. And it's like, then you're kind of in these roles that the world kind of imposes. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really like, no, I didn't have like, it's like what you're around and what you know, and like being able to like see, like the opportunity at that moment, like wasn't, like I hadn't met anyone yet that would, I didn't have like quite, I was like working on music all the time, but I didn't like quite have, I mean, I actually, I like the ends that I had, I kind of created myself and like, like what I could do at that point, that was like available to me was just like, yeah, like, make a bunch of songs, some of like a lot of bad songs, like slowly start finding ones that I that I liked more and more. And that would be with like, people I would meet out and anyone, you know, I lived kind of close to London. So I had, and I was like, yeah, all the time. We're trying to release these songs, were we putting them on SoundCloud or like, what point do you start saying, okay, these songs that I'm making on the side, I'm going to start, I'm going to send these out, like what's the first thing somebody outside of you in the person you're writing? Here's a song. I would, no, I didn't, I didn't like release things too much, but I would, I like had, yeah, I had a bunch of songs, so I think like that stone song, but I never like released that on DSPs. I think the first time I released something, the first time I ever got to the point where I'd really loved a song. And I'd been like sort of, I've been, yeah, making so many things for such long time. The first time I really liked a song and had that feeling of like, like I finally found something that I, you know, love enough to put out was the song called Brutally. And that was, yeah, and that was like 2016, I put that out. That's a big, that's nine years after, or 10 years after, 2006 when you're writing with some people that are like friends of yours. That's a long time to develop one sound. You were saying how you kind of tried a bunch of things. What were the different kinds of songs that you would write? Like how far away from the sookie that we know? So far. Like what? Like who, like I was at the, I'm at the mercy of who I'm in the room with. So like I would have, I would have, yeah, I had like, I had this like super like dance part stuff. Like even the fact that's actually the song devil I know that I put on my first record, I reproduced that. And it was like a very, it was a very different version when I'd written it. Actually, the original version was really cool and it's actually great. And I kind of wish, I did it with the guy, do you probably know him, John Hume? - Yeah. - John Hume? - Sure. - That was who I wrote that song with. - And actually, that's a legit. - He's a legit writer writer to be doing that before any songs had come out. - Yeah, I felt, I felt like I found, I found like, there would be, yeah, there would be, I guess I got to LA at that point, gotten, got, I mean, this is like, that's a bit later around the 2016 time. So there is like, yeah, there's a long 10 years of like getting here, meeting more people. There was like, for example, I remember emailing balance Sebastian and I go, and like you were saying like, I guess like having been doing fashion stuff, like I guess I wasn't like completely, like an completely unknown person. So maybe that helped there. - Yeah. - But then Sebastian, I went over and made a song with Stuart that I later released. So I had, I would always have loads of stuff. - When you're looking at developing as a young female artist in while doing all these other stuff, what advice you'd give a young female artist who's walking into a room who doesn't know what they want to sound like yet? - I mean, the best advice, like I didn't follow this. So can I give advice that I haven't done? - I think this probably the best kind of advice. - The best kind of advice. - Because that means that you learned from not doing it. - Well, if I could like, if I would go back, I would learn, I would probably just learn how to produce like, at least in like a basic way, that would be great. I'm so bad with like, I've literally cried before trying to just figure out. It's like, I really struggle with like the tentacle puppet. - And just, yeah, and you're trying to articulate music is that expression of talking about music is like dancing about architecture? - Yeah, or not even like knowing what I know what I like and how I want things to sound, but I mean just like figuring out, like be able to make fucking beats, be able to like record things. Like, I'm like, and I'm still, that is like on me. I've still, to be honest, I haven't tried, I haven't tried hard enough. So my advice would be like, just figure that stuff out. Like figure it out in a, in a, in a basic way, so that you will just like save a lot of time being able to, you know, come in with, as like flashed out of a demo as possible, and like have as much of an idea. And there's also like the other part of it, which is, and also, I mean, like the other, the thing that I did think I did right, is like I just was, I just say when, I went like hunting for my people, and like I went hunting for my fucking tribe, and I found them. And like I met, yeah, like the fact, like, like his name's Blume, he just, he just produced the Lily Allen record. I've known him since I was like 17, 18. He was like the first person that, one of the first people that ever worked with me, where, you know, we've still, still working together, years and years later, like absolutely adore him. He was such a, he's always been like such an encouraging, like honest person to work with. How did you guys connect initially? Like I met him at a party or something, yeah. - NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Let me tell you about Splices, Sounds, Plugin. It brings millions of royalty free, high quality samples, right into your DAW making it easier to search, preview, and drag and drop sounds all over within your project in any DAW, FL Studio Logic Pro, you know how it works. I've been testing out a new tool called Variations that lets producers create new versions of any Splice sample that adjusts structure. Key and BPM while preserving the sounds core characteristics. That's because every sample in Splices license catalog of more than 3 million is traceable to its original creator. The original sample creator is compensated each time their sound is used as a source and each time the variation is downloaded. This means that there are more opportunities to use the samples you already love and more ways for creators to get paid. Variations is available to try now in Splices, Sounds, Plugin. Check it out. Thank you for sponsoring. And the writer is. Yeah, it's always weird when it happens like that. Because people are out there trying. Well, also that's an era where I think it's easier to meet someone at a party. London was an incredible scene. Like when I was going out really. When I was going out, like I started going out really young, like I was like, I keep saying I'm repeating. But yeah, it was. There was an amazing music scene. It was like when I remember like Amy Winehouse was on the, you know, hanging out of the pub and like it was like we would go to Camden and watch bands that would watch tiny shows of bands that would then get signed. There was a band called Tribes that I remember, like they were my favorite band on Earth. And they were just like. It was like so exciting. And I was like really young. And I was like following these bands like getting bigger. And you know, like Marina and the Diamonds was around at that point. So there was like so much. Like yeah, the Libertines were huge. It was just like such an exciting. It was so exciting. I remember. Yeah, it was like. Oh, other bands, the Cassabian were like. Around at that time, like. And did everybody know each other? Yeah, and like even like. Yeah, I remember like Liam Gallagher was around and it was great. I was like 18 and like, you know, sort of in this very, like in some really like fun circles of like nightlife that were. What is one in like now from your perspective? I don't know. I don't know anymore. I'm like a loser now. I mean, you've been here for a long time, too. I'm sure it's still. No, no, no, no, no, it's still. Yeah, it's still. It's gotta go home. Yeah, it's still great. It's still great. I mean, I don't, yeah, I don't. Like, yeah, it's still great. I'm staying in, I'm kind of like living in Camden right now, but yeah, I'm definitely not as like plugged into going out anymore. But it was, yeah, the distant memory, you know, it was just, I just remember it being fun and like getting on the bus from. And like taking a 40-minute bus drive into London and like this whole world kind of opening up to me. So yeah, I definitely met in the early days, a lot of people from just like, yeah, being out. That's still, you know, six years before, you know, before he brutally comes out. So you still have this time there of growth and travel and doing other stuff. And being in fashion as well and that, and that was, you know, that was. That also kind of like broadened my world a lot. But I remember, you know, Jake Bug. Yeah. I remember going to a Jake Bug concert and I was really, really into an artist called Finley. I don't know if you've heard of Finley. And she had a song called "Your Sister" and she was opening for Jake Bug. And I remember going backstage to, like, go and meet them with a friend of mine who knew Jake Bug and that was when. That was when I met Finley, whose name is Natalie Finley. And then her boyfriend, she'd just started going out with a guy called Jules Apolliner. And they are still together. And that was when I was like. I think I was like 18 at that point, like 18. And I went over to their apartment in East London like a few days later. And they, I mean, they are my. Like that, those are the people that. Like I really credit for everything for me. Like we started. Jules and all your songs. Yeah. He's probably. Yeah, he's on like. Oh, no. Yeah, and it's both of them. It's Jules and that, like, it's that couple that, like, literally just went, like, come over. And we have. We just made things everywhere. We went to France and it was, you know, we went to his house in France, we went to Paris. And they were the people that I go, like, wow, like, they got, they got, like, zero back for years and years and years. They are just like people that get up and make music every single day and only work on things that they fucking love and feel passionate about. and they're like there to me like the most like credible just fucking awesome human beings that I what is it about that brings out the best in you um we're just because they're just like I think I think they're so removed from I mean like now like now they're starting to work on like huge projects at the moment like massive massive massive um but like they are just like Jules I both of them they're kind of like relics you know what I mean like they're kind of that they've got the that they're kind of like yeah they're like slightly like that yeah it's like nothing nothing matters apart from making a fucking cool song in like the in in everything there's not like yeah there's not like an inch of them that's like they're not yeah there's not an inch of them that's like kind of uh that they're just incredibly pure incredibly pure and they music that you guys do together so so cool thank you it's it's it's you know I I moved here a long time ago and I feel like the what's cool is shifted and all this stuff but there's something about the only way you create something timeless is really by being fully authentic and it just sound this music you guys the music you guys do together so authentically what it is it just if it's like I I can't tell if there's if it if it's uh if it's retro or is it futuristic like it fits in this way or because it has some of that retro vibes in it it's one thing but the lyrics feel really current and so it doesn't feel pastyish in a way that like Amy Winehouse never felt pastyish because the lyrics kept it feeling really modern really modern did you guys ever think well what kind of music should we do or was it just the three of you guys together it's like you know what's the first day of writing for the three of you guys what was that like it was like some it was like a kind of drony song we still have it it was it was sweet it was a sweet song about something about about something about me like flying on a plane and leaving someone and like am I gonna feel the same way now that I've like up to left and like I'm like you know it was it was it was something like that um and like I think like I think like there's something there's something about like with them it's like an instrument like makes us like we're like giggling about sounds that we're making do you know what I mean like there's there's this like really pure just like ecstatic enjoyment um that can't that that like comes out like we've like yeah like and Jaws is like Jaws is like a proper eccentric like we're all like he's like properly eccentric and like like wonderful and really really genuinely strange like like he's you know he's and he's and he's got complete like we've all got like like some kind of form of like extreme ADHD and it can be it can honestly be hours of like going completely off course um and makes for good song you know what I mean it's like somebody can go back and see what the you know somebody can go back in time and look back at what you guys did during those that time then you might land on something I mean how do you how do you finish a song if everybody has extreme ADHD I feel like it's hours and hours of not of of like meandering and because that's kind of where the magic comes because it's not I think there's like and like you know I definitely have like other sessions where we like go in and we also make great music because we're like in it we'll be like we have you know eight hours and we're going to make something like we want to go home and see our kids and that's fucking get to it and like I've definitely made like great songs that I love doing that also yeah parameters can help with that yeah exactly but then but like with them it's very with them it's like very much like that's stay like that stay up like joules for sometimes just not go not go to bed and like he can just get completely lost and a loop or something you know and just and and he's like a wild fan in that way and and that and that is like such an amazing partner like to him because she's she likes you know as it's like a wild woman too but she like balances him out a little bit and she's such an amazing she's such an amazing lyricist and like I just love like I feel like we can yeah we we just like have this like incredible back and forth together but yeah there's like the freedom so like when I go yeah when I go and work with them it's it's yeah joules is like he's there it's it's it's anti structure in that way but saying that we were just talking last night we were just talking last night on the phone and we were talking about like how back in love was made which was like the opening single of my song my album and and we were kind of like he's we've got all of these voice notes and we were like going through everything like laughing because there's this picture he has um he's got like a giant satire that he he got the satire out and was played had been playing it for hours and that he's got the voice note where I'm like I just like uh like what what if we just like I just don't know about this I'm not sure about the satire and he's just like soggy like led the fear go like he's got a heavy french axe like heavy french axe and I'm like yeah but it's just I just think it's a little it's a little bit too much it's just that we were like laughing so much because I did like we did man that's like yeah joules like she's she's from she's from Liverpool and she's got she's like she's like yeah joules I just think like that's just that's just not have that like maybe we'd ease that off and he's just like you know doubles down you doubles down yeah it's like we we're like you know that long relationship with everyone like you can kind of like you can be you can like kind of like say stuff to each other and I remember the day that we'd made that song we were actually that was like one of the only times where it was like it was December 7th it was really soon to the record being finished and I like went I like flew to London with like a sense of urgency because I was like I was like there's a missing song I want like a I was like looking for I was I'm always like quite directionless when I'm writing in a way of like what I want and this time I was like at that point I was like I'm I was itching for like a great live sounding like wanted something epic wanted something like quite universal wanted something like uplifting and and and actually we like made we made we didn't do it we I found the song that we were me and joules had been noodling on all day and that was in a really bad mood we made a pact if we're not writing something that's fucking brilliant we're not carrying on she just like flat out refused to let us like lay down this song and she was like we're starting again and then I had a I had a acting audition that was that it was like another thing in the day that was like breaking up the day kind of like it was getting to like 6pm we hadn't achieved anything and everyone was yeah and and and I was like joules I really need to use the studio for this acting audition because it's very dark in there and I was like it's the only place where I can get any light and he was just like he fully was like no you're not you're not using the studio like I'm going in the studio like you can you can go you can go outside in the in the main room and I was like fuck so I had like this one tiny little like light and did the worst audition of my life like complete and the casting director say can I like I can't we can't do this in the dark and I'm just like sorry like it's fine and I it's just like terrible terrible and by this but when I came back into the room they'd like locked themselves away in the studio and that had been on the the world it's a going like we hadn't had this little tune of the opening I'm like do do do do do do do do and then joules had the got like a melaton arm was like layering melatrons and then it was like later redone by horns but like I kind of came in there and we were like oh there's something in that there's something in that and then the song came really fast that day what is really fast man it just like the like in an hour or like like yeah I like a couple like two hours or something no no no no no actually I'm two hours it probably wasn't two hours like I probably like that but it flowed it was it was like suddenly we were we were and it's the end of being the opening song the album it ended up being the opening song of the album I remember like walking around the park the next day so ladies my lover do not make the album no but it's gonna come back it's gonna come back cut to that being like what's just slowly shaking your head absolutely no way this song come back is it hard to balance you know when I know you know for some people they have to walk into the other room and do an audition or do a phone call or do whatever that is hard to like switch hats like almost literally wearing hats that's not a good idea but like sometimes you just have so yeah it's not it's not how do you like from being an actor from being an artist I wasn't an actor that day that was an absolute ball it's not even yeah it was shit it was really shit so yeah it's not it's not Um, I don't think that is, like trying to do, that I, I, yeah, that's probably my, um, I think like that's probably one of my downfalls is trying to sometimes think that I can have like a billion tabs open at one time when, when somebody asks you, you know, in L.A., it's a big thing where people sort of say like, you know, when they meet you and you're like, I'm a blank and they define themselves by their occupation. Do you think of yourself as an actor? Do you think of yourself as an artist? Do you think of yourself as a model? Do you think of yourself as a fashionista? You know, what do you think of yourself? Just a model. I'm kidding. And then that's, we just, we just, we just stare at the camera for the rest of it. No, I'm like, so I'm like such an ex model at this point. I'm like such an, an aged out model. I'm not a model anymore. No, I don't, you know, I kind of like, I think that question, like sort of like, like, especially when I started putting up music, it was like something that like kind of like, pained me quite a lot because it was like, oh God, I've like been a musician and I've acted and now I'm going to do music. And it was like, and it felt like really intense, like, sounds so like ridiculous, whatever, there's so many more important things in the world. But like that, it felt like a difficult thing, like being like, oh my God, how am I going to like to find myself and and also like how in London, especially in England, like you're not that you're not like in the States, you're kind of like everyone's a little bit more open to. Interesting. Different things, especially in L.A. actually, it's like, yeah, maybe L.A., like if you were like, I'm going to be in a movie next week. I'd be like, cool. Great. You know what I mean? Like none of your friends would be like, like, like, like, you know what I mean? And there's like a lot more openness in America, I think, and in England, it's like from you what? You know, especially in like, in like, public, in like press, I think it's much, it's, you know, especially me. And maybe for like what I'd done, like, done and being in fashion, and I was like innocent and lean that I was like, damn, this is kind of, it was like a little difficult to break out of. I was, I also was like, incredibly, I mean, I've had, I've had like, I've been so incredibly lucky. I mean, so lucky. They also, they may have felt that way until they heard the music and they're like, oh, shit. No, I think like I remember doing the, I remember like doing my like first performance or like putting up brutally, for example, and but like the, the press like picking up on it and there's like an article and like the daily mail being like, fails to like chart at all. It's like an acoustic song. I had like no team, no, but like, it's not going to chart. Like, you know what I mean, but they like when they like immediately and that kind of like, yeah, I was like put off for a long time, actually, by certain things like that. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't really release things very often. And I definitely was like, like embarrassed, like was when I look back at it, it took me like a long time. And I would put out like one song every year, like I, so I had like brutally and then I think I think I might have put out good looking right after that. Was it good looking after that? And like, no one I like played that song to at the time was like, it was very into it at all. Like, yeah, a billion people later than that. Well, I'm like eight years later, too, like a long time later. So like I put out that song even more even better that it takes longer. It takes a long time. And that was like the first time I like discovered distro kid and, and like the song has, like the photo that I'd used because I was like making that, that was, I guess I'd like start. Even, even though I didn't, you know, I definitely was like, I was taking it seriously. I think even if people weren't like, like recognizing it that much because I had like cover up for that photo and I, that was like, yeah, I was like uploading stuff on district and it's funny because the cover art, I hadn't figured out the dimensions. So it's like blank space and just like, you know, like the little, like, rectangle. That's great. Yeah. So I was like, and I'd made like, I'd made a video for that song. And like, so I was like making stuff with friends. My friend ever would do loads of things for me and like, I made that video in a hotel room and like cut my hand open on the, on the fan and like went to hospital and we like filmed most of that video in hospital. So yeah. I don't know. I don't know. So I got introduced to Sookie Waterhouse as a musician. That's cool. I don't, all the other stuff feels like side projects to you being a musician and so that goes back to the how, you know, when you meet somebody, that's how you view them. And so you can't, and you can't, you know, once you see that, you're like, oh, that's this person's a musician. They're not, you know, oh yeah, they did fashion in the past that's still like, I know, I think of you as a musician that's part of your past or, you know, these are things you do simultaneously to being a musician. So it's really strange how when you meet somebody you develop this, this aura around them. Probably like first came across them. Yeah. Yeah. How do you develop thick skin as an artist, as an, as, or as, you know, when you're saying fashion people would say adults would say some crazy shit to you. How do you develop thick skin? Are you born with that? Um, I don't know if I have thick skin. Like I, I don't, like I, yeah. I like, I feel like our job, like our job in a way is to like not have thick skin as well. Yeah. But like I do, I do have a, um, but yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't have thick skin in, in a lot of ways. It's not, um, but I do, I think like as I've grown up and like, now I'm older, the one thing that I do know is that, um, that like I, I, I, I, I know that like things will go up and things will go down. And like you'll have, like I've, you know, I've had times where like, like I've been working a lot or like, you know, think, you know, you feel like there's like a heat or something and then I've had it like kind of go away and, and like, you're like, that's also like, okay, and like really nice and lots of ways to, and then, and like those moments for kind of, like you actually want that, you want, you want to, like, you want to release something and be out. And then you want to like go, it's like very important to like, go away, and like, you know, not be doing a bunch of like public things like all the time. I don't think that's how like I want to like live my life. I don't think it's like healthy. I think figuring out how to like have an artistic process that is actually like healthy for you is now like the most important thing to me. And I'm not, I'm still, I'm like trying, I'm figuring, I'm trying to always, that's like a working thing. Yeah. I think that this too shall pass happens with positive stuff too. You know, I think, and so it's yeah, you can't have hits forever and eventually, you know, you can't have, or your version of hits or whatever. Right. Fashion is obviously a hotbed of music. It seems like people build entire lines around good music or they, you know, a whole, however version of people want to show a new line, it's like the so music base. How did music, through the time of being 16 to, you know, 2016, how did music and fashion combine in your head to, you know, create the person you are to walk in with jewels and that and create the music you. And then a brighter. I think it had a huge, I think it had a huge impact on me actually. I think, um, yeah, like the exposure to like the, the exposure to like being, like playing different characters all the time, like on set, like having, um, yeah, we, you know, you're on sets. You, I actually, I feel like I got exposed to a lot of music. I got to meet a bunch of people that showed me so many things, so, so young. Um, I got to, yeah, I got to like be a bunch of different people. I think, I think I like started, uh, like, I remember having this blog and, uh, the photographer giving me a film camera and, like, learning how to load the camera and, um, that was like my thing that I, like very much, like, I always had this camera with me and I had this blog and I feel like that was like where I started, like putting, like having, I was like looking for like this control of my image in a lot of ways because, and I would like, go home after a shoot and, like, I would have my hair and makeup all done and I would get into my own stuff. I was really into like thrifting and like, I was always in, I had like these big dot martins and was like always at like, you know, wherever, like combing through spitter fields. I had like quite like eccentric, very like homemade kind of like funny style back then. I also had like a big mod phase where I was, I just like looked like I was right out of So I look like patty. boyd or something. Like it was fun. Yeah, it was very bad. I was always in like white tights and like a John Smedley like, but I think like, yeah, that blog was like, I would kind of, I would do all these like self-timer photos everywhere and upload them and it was like very like Tumblr era. And that was like, I feel like that, like the influence, like my musical tastes and like those images, like it was somewhere to like put stuff. And then, yeah, so I would like always have like prints of that and like make, and then I would like stitch together pictures and write things on them. And that was like kind of where I started like putting like words and images together and having like, it was like this little place for me to have like some sense of like how how like, yeah, images and words, if that makes sense. When did you reconnect with your parents? Oh, I was always like, yeah, I was never like, I never was like, you weren't like outcat. No, I was never like, you know, not, I was never like not connected to them. Even if yeah, even if I was like fighting with them, I was still connected to them. So it was, yeah, I think there was, I think that was like a definitely and like a time where I was all like a good couple of years where I was like pulling away, but I would still, I would still always go home when, when like, you know, the shit. Yeah, no, just, yeah. Okay, the story of good looking is, uh, is amazing. It's such a good story. Like the whole, the fact that we're still in a place where it's top 10 trending on TikTok and that thing was written and came out nine years ago. Is it still that so crazy? Yeah, you're welcome for that, but then we pocket. Well, um, um, I know everything. You know everything. Cut to John over there. Yeah, she's like typing out of that one. Um, but you know, are you sending him stuff right now? Are you testing him? I'm not doing this. I may know things every once in a while. Wow. You are not. You're literally an actor. Yeah. You had me falls. Yeah. That's going up. That's great. It happens. Um, no, but for real, like, uh, but the story of good looking is incredible. And it is top 10 at TikTok now nine years after releasing it. I'm sure that when you wrote it, you nobody writes a song thinking that 10 years later, it's going to be hotter than it was the day that they wrote it. But tell me the story about the day you wrote good looking. Oh my god, it was so long ago. But actually, I do remember that there are certain things that I remember about that song. Um, that I remember that it was the chorus originally was good looking what's cooking. What's good looking looking? What's good? What's what's your cooking up? Something. What are you cooking up recently? What are you cooking up? I was good looking what's cooking. Um, and we we were really happy with that. Um, so though, and, and there's like other things that I remember about that song, uh, like I remember my little brother coming round to do painting. I had this apartment at the time where I would like lay out like parchment paper and, and we would paint and he like made, he was, he's really good at drawing. And he drew this, um, he drew like a skyline. There was a train track outside of like, uh, Labyrinth Grove station, which was where this apartment was. And that, and I remember like this drawing that he'd done. And he might have like written skyline or something, and I, and that's where I got the skyline falls, Lerick. Um, so it was like a little like patchwork of, um, a little patchwork of ideas that came together. And I feel like we finished that song at Jules's mom's house in France. Um, and I like, yeah, it's all like a little bit, a little, a little bit like piece together. It was around the same time that we did Joanna as well that we made Joanna. Would you already send a sub-pop at that point? No, no, no, no. So this is all independent. Yeah. How crazy is that? Like all these, everybody wants a record deal or they want something. But here, a woman in, you know, writing with her friends releases a song independently, and it, you know, ends up having this life. The song really blows up like five years later. I think longer. Yeah. I mean, and six years later, whatever it is, seven years, seven years later. Yeah. How is a seven years later thing? Seven or eight? Eight years. Eight years later. I mean, what? I know it's crazy. I don't know. It's so not to talk song as well. Maybe that's why it worked. I don't know. It was like, yeah, it was just complete flute. It was a complete flute. What was the moment when it was like, well, that's not, that's, that's, this is working. You know, this is like, is there a moment where you realize this song is not just some song that I released in 2017. This song is one of the hottest songs in the world. It was so strange. It was so odd because it was, it was, it was like really beautiful. It's, it's so like weird, the timelines. It was such an amazing moment for it to, to happen. And so like, it does feel like everything was like coming together. And like the past was like like the work I'd done and the, all the work I'd done in the past was like giving me like a little like wave, you know, and being like, hey, that we're going to, we're going to help you out because I, so I'd made my, by the time this happened in 2022, I was shooting Daisy Jones in the sex. There had been like a big COVID break that was really unexpected. So in that time, I kind of was like sitting there being like what, like actually like sitting with myself for the first time, like we all were right. And I was like, I have, I've got all these songs. I'm going to just make my record like I'm going to be on, like, I'm going to be so unhappy with myself if I never do this. So I, um, I like made the record independently. Like completely just made the record that I wanted to make it was called I can't let go. And then I started like reaching out to record labels in, like in the pandemic, everyone said no, apart from sub pop. I think I like, in fact, they said like no, and then like followed up with them six months later, like got on the phone with them. And this is all pre like good looking blowing up or anything. And they, they were amazing and they like, they gave me, uh, gave me a licensing deal. And, um, and then, so like the record is about to come out. And I'm shooting Daisy Jones. They got me a, they also have Father John Misty and I got on his tour, which was amazing. So like right after finishing the show, I was about to go out with him on this massive two months tour, doing the craziest rooms. Like I was, like I literally am always so grateful to him because I was so green, so green, like didn't know what the fuck I was doing. And it was like the best, like I like fell on my ass so many times, but it was also like the best thing that ever happened to me, like going on, going on that tour. And then so like literally as I'm, as I'm kind of about to go on tour, like a couple of months. I remember because I was shooting the show. And I remember being in New Orleans and, and, and, and it started. And like suddenly we're like, oh my god, I'm like, what? Like these, these numbers start going up. And, and, and then, yeah, and then just like every day, or just like, what is happening? It was so strange. Is it, do you still get shocked by it? Or is it something now that it's like you now have an evergreen as part of your life that you wrote? And so therefore it's, it's normalized. Like is it normalized at this point? Because it's, no, I still think it's really, really strange. Like it's so weird. It's so weird. It's like such a backwards. It's, it's so cool. And it's such a, and it's like been such a cool thing to like, like it's such a nice thing for me to be like, oh, everything, yeah, everything that you're doing. Like I think it's so true as well. Like, even like, I just, my album just came out a week, like a couple of days ago, and like, I think it's like so nice, like, because in my head that experience made me just reminded me that like, like, like, it's, it's, like, it's, for me, I'm like, there is nothing about what happens in the first week. This is like, this is about, this is like a long term thing where like it's full of surprises. You never know what the fuck's going to happen. You never know if like something you worked on 10 years ago is going to like come back around. That's like kind of one of the exciting things about like music now. And yeah, it's just like, it's amazing to see the new album's great. And I think a lot of seeing all the collaborators that you have in the songwriting community and whatnot. You know, you're really a, it feels like your trajectory is just beginning. You know, it's so when to have songs that are now almost 10 years old in exploding, it's, it's this weird thing when you're like, yeah, the songs that you're releasing two weeks ago, you know, are not even three days ago, you know, that they could blow up in 10 years from now when your, when your daughters in junior higher high school is bizarre. Yeah. but it totally could. - It's like the exciting thing. I'm sure you feel that too. - Yeah, I mean, this is this thing about, yeah, I think it gives you hope for songs that you know are great that haven't quite gotten there and you're not really sure why. And it also, you know, when, even the, some of the bigger songs that I've done, like I think when Ari records dangerous woman, it's, she had, she was a big artist, but she wasn't who she is now. As far as if she's now, you know, the biggest, she's, you know, she's as big as you get in the world. - I love that song so much. It makes me feel, I love that. - It makes me feel so, I like, I'm like, I'm fucking dangerous when I listen to that song. - I love that. Me too. But, you know, that's another story. But, but the idea of that song is, you know, it comes out with an artist and she, that's, that album changes sort of where she is in her career and she's, you know, she's a world-class talent and all this stuff and it's not to say she wouldn't have gotten there one way or the other. But the song has gained more and more meaning as she's gained more and more meaning. So it's interesting to see, it's nothing I could control, it's just sort of a luck of the draw that that song is attached to such a wonderful singer in that point of her career and it grows. And you just never know that. The full circle moment in, in this album that's interesting is having, you know, Fleetwood Mac play at all, you know, Fleetwood make, in particular, playing on this album is while considering Daisy Jones and the six is loosely based on the Fleetwood Mac life, you know, tell me what it was like playing Karen in that show? - I think it was, I mean, that show was so like one of, it was like one of those projects where I remember being like I really, and I don't feel this very often, like I was like I have to play, I have to play this character. And I remember like going into my agent's office and like just to say hi and they were like all the, she had like all the characters written out and the people that she was putting up for it. And like my name actually wasn't on the list and I was fucking pissed. I was like, hey, like, where's my name? Like, what's going on? And she's like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, that's good. That's like, it's audition soon and it was a long audition process. It was like a lot of, it was a lot of like, I don't think I was like quite in the, like quite in their minds. And I flew myself back to LA like in the final, the final kind of like moments for it. They still wanted to see me like again. And I've been like playing, I've been like playing a lot of like piano, trying to like show them that I could like do that part. But I think it came down in the end to like the like chemistry with Will who plays Graham. And I remember like we, I like got on his back and got him to like, run me up and down the halls of Hello Sunshine and then we like burst into this room and did the scene. But yeah, there was something about that role where it was like, I don't know, maybe like in my head I knew that I had to play her because like I had to play someone who was so confident about like who they were and like, they got the whole character is like, I am a musician through and through. I'm gonna be doing this till like the day I die. Like nothing else matters to me. And there was like something in that character that I was like really drawn to. And I know that like playing her and like being around all that music, being around like sound city studios and like Blake Mills making the soundtrack. And all of us doing band practice, even though like we were a bunch of actors who like took a long time to sound like a good band. But there was like, there was something about that that I think had, you know, and then combined with like COVID, like definitely had a hand and night making me be like, just fucking do it. Like you've got one life, just fucking do it. Like get this record done. You, that's awesome. Being a, playing a character who's in a rock band that's really successful and then getting to go on tour with, you know, Father John Misty and then later Ares tour and all these other things, it's like you kind of, you've experienced performing at such a high level and with so many people in front of you. What's the difference between being in a studio to you and performing on stage? God, there's loss, like, yeah, that's a lot. So that's it. No, I get what and actually and Leve last year I went with, when was Leve for six weeks, which was like awesome. That's arenas too. That was arenas. Yeah. And that was that, that was like one of the, that was like one of the reasons she's such an unbelievable musician and like someone I really look up to 'cause she's like also done all of this independently and like, somebody that's just like, I, I like, I just like being around it and like watching somebody that's like, found this niche and been like, I know, I know exactly who I am. I like, no, I know that there's something here and I just like an interesting, interesting that's, it's hard when, when, when the, I don't want to say the industry puts you in a box, I think just culture in general, you try, it's hard not to chase trends and you're trying to create your own avenue in this. And so when somebody, when you see somebody's confidently themselves and succeeding at that, that's as inspiring, if not more than. So inspiring. My friend Joe over here always talks about, he's like, yeah, how often were more, you know, you're more envious of the check, like when you really think about it, then you are the actual song. And a lot of times when you look at charts, you're looking at these charts and you're like, I don't wish I wrote any of these songs. It'd be nice to have the success of some of these songs, but I don't want to write these songs. And then when these artists come out and they're authentically themselves and they succeed at it, you can't help but be like, no, that's what I want. You know, that's what you, that's like, yeah, I mean, like having, having like being, like having something inside of you that's like pure to you and like executing it. And then like, it's like, there are these battles that you, it's a battle every day. It is. It's like, it's hard to like, you know, it's like, yeah, like standing up for yourself over and over again, like not listening to the, you know, people around you, like trying to help or like trying to, who are also like invested in, we were using the check. Like, yeah, and who are like invested in that. And and also like, you're like, is that, you know, is that like, what I, is that what I want in a, or is that even like something that like suits me in that like very like obvious way? Like, I don't know, like it's, it's like, yeah, seeing people like Lava who, who would be like, I've got this vision and I'm like, every day, I'm going out to battle. And it's like, it's fucking, it takes, it takes a lot. It really does those artists are people are doing their own path. And that's probably why they all want you to open for them. I don't know, but like, that's a nice of you to say, but it's, it's a, it's been, it's been, I've been really, really fortunate to, to just get to even like, just be on a stage with them, like, be around them, like, like, just cat, it's, it's, it's kind of like, catching how, how a, 'cause it can be quite isolating, can't, can't it, when you don't, when you don't like, like, I've really, I'm actually, I'm finding that more at the moment, like, my, like, world of being able to like, talk to other musicians and, and like, ask them about like, how, you know, like, like, see how their minds work and just, it's so, it's so nice to like, even just get to ask advice or be like, how does this work in, in your world? And 'cause it's like, yeah, the music industry is quite like, like, we all have our own little like, fucking worlds going on with like, the people around them, and you know what I mean? Like, we're all in, in a way that's unsuccessfully. Yeah, you try to build your own world where you can, they're very specific to each person. Yeah, how, how everyone's like doing things, like the mentality of like, or like, how, you know, how, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I would say, oh, are you showing, do you show your label and your team stuff immediately? Or do you fucking like, not let anybody in? Or like, you know, there's, it's really-- Do you? Do you show everyone-- I don't show my label stuff immediately, no? When do you show now? I would, I like, I keep, I keep-- 'Cause almost done. No, no, I like, show them stuff along the way, but I don't, I don't, I will only show something when it's like, and it, 'cause it's, when it's like in a place that I feel really good about. Yeah, that's, that's good advice that I think, in a way, you want to entice people to be excited. Of course, yeah, but you don't want them to you know, everyone has opinions. Yeah, I think like with my managers It's different are there musicians that you share your music with to get advice? Yeah, I mean like if I if I'm like really in love with something and really happy about something I'm like playing it to everybody. Yeah, I'm like so excited. I'm like put this on in the car I want to play it to the Uber driver. I want to play it to my friends like I want to I want to like blast it I'm really excited about but it's like very vulnerable isn't it because you fall in love with something and then you have that Like that thing where you've just been in this in this world and you'll just say I absolutely love it You've listened to it like for like a couple of days straight and then and then like it can be it's it can be like really difficult when you like show it to people and they're like I guess you're like, you know, well, this is the theme where try also, you know, the Getting someone to even listen to a song where they're not distracted It's so difficult. Yeah, to be like, hey put your phone down Because I'm playing and then you know, you're showing you're the most important people on your team And they're like you're playing songs and they're like this and your man I'm nervous about this snare sound how it sounds on these speakers right you're sitting there texting or emailing somebody and then they're like I like it or I don't I know it's the hardest thing I'm looking at my hair stylist who like I played one of my singles turn she's like no now she loves it It's real about she loves it but it's like Which is the song no, it was it was it was it was it was tiny reason and now you really like that song But I was playing it to you in contrast with 18 and like you you're an 18er and I was an 18er too and that was giving me a lot of Uh turmoil because everyone else wanted That we're one of tiny raisin on tonight. Yeah, it's just like it's just it's so it's so difficult because it's also like I don't know I also don't want to be the person that's like Like I do I'm also like Uh, I'm also like a woman which probably makes me more like I want to be like okay and like liked and Nice and it's like fucking like dealing with that side and like you know what I mean and I don't You don't I don't have that experience. It's just like being an artist and like be and like wanting to And like also like Having that like part of me that's like well, I'm not a genius and I'm not and like I'm also want to like take advice and I want to You know what I mean, and it's like those two things going up against each other or like taking opinions and it's like I don't I'm not like Yeah, I'm also like open to feedback. I'm not like a psycho who's not open to feedback like and but then it's like Then I'm like should I be a maybe I should be a psycho and not be open This is the problem we all get and this is the this is it's hard because you want you know the That thing everyone has an opinion and 90% of the opinions I don't give a shit about But somebody every once in a while will say something and it may be the person at least expect worse like that Maybe they're right a good opinion. That's a good note right and you know, it's exactly when it we're not that yeah Exactly, I'm not it's not like I'm it's not like somebody's somebody's opinion has not in the past like Made me like see something in a different light and been what's an opinion that somebody gave you about a song where you're like oh shit. That's right No, that's but I'm trying I'm trying to like think of one off the top of my head for like this For like this song For like this for this record Probably like things not being yeah like they I'd like things not being finished I can think of a lot that I didn't that like didn't That yeah, I can think I can think of one Um, I can think I think I can think of ones where like they've said like oh actually I wasn't right But I'm trying to think about probably just things like not put things wrong What are you laughing at? I want to hear it. She's just laughing. She's just giggling. Oh, I'm going to find it hard like there are I'm trying to think about like Like think okay, I'm thinking like there's this thing like back enough I felt like that was that didn't really like need any feedback. I think I played it for like one producer and They did they like thought that the verses didn't want like catchy enough or something like that But then they were like oh actually now now now I don't agree with that because because they're giving me I mean I we all We listen to a lot of songs and especially when you're in the business where you know as a publisher I'm listening to a lot of songs so you know as a songwriter. I'm writing a lot of songs and exact I have a different experience But you have time off and they listen to a verse a pre-chorus a chorus sometimes another verse pre-chorus and chorus But you're making a decision on whether you like a song very quickly You know and you don't have the time to you know and also your biases I feel like you have a but you have a bias about like you probably have a bias about like do I like this producer? Do I like the song? Do you know what I mean like but when you were saying like the place that you're listening to it If I'm like playing it for someone in a car with like the like we have the windows roll down and like It's been a fucking good day. It's like how but that's the same but that's the same as me as an audience listener to to music that I hear I can be like I mean I can think of things sort of like coming out of the moment where I've been like Like listened to and been like I don't like it now and then and then I've like seen Someone player on Instagram or like I've seen you know what I mean like I've seen them do a little acoustic version of it Or I've just heard it a couple of times and now I'm really into the song. Yeah It's like things just come to you things just come to you at all different times and like it's a good uh what's it there's a basic question But to you what's a good song? What's a good song? Yeah Um, I saw this like bet quote the other day about I just went to go and he's like my neighbor and I just went to go and see the Wes Anderson He he that Wes Anderson did the site tribute to his music that Bill Murray Hosted I think it's I think it's on for like three nights. I went the other night and um I was like watching back to Elliot Smith's needle and the hay wow and I was like that is a fucking good song Right yeah like that's just like and it's my it's a feeling that feeling it's not like fucked with too much So it's just has like such a purity to it um I think yeah like I I mean to me a good song Um is something that has like like a roughness and an imperfect like an imperfectness to it I got I was let I also like jackson brown these days. Yeah like the just like lyrics that Lyrics that are so simple yeah that feel like so Embued with meaning and heaviness and like aren't like I was watching that show the other day and I was like fuck we've made things Kind of like way more complicated like some which yeah the hollywood ball show Where they had all these musicians Yeah, it was all like a tribute to Wes Anderson's music. So yeah, so like I think I think like I think I think in a lot of ways like I like a like it's a simple message that's just like Like to deliver and like in some kind of like Like poetic way that just yeah it feels it's like it's like it's like Chasing that simplicity really there you you've now performed songs in front of you know feeders of 35,000 people or 8,000 probably for Father John Missy to Leves 15 to 20,000 people which is nuts and then Taylor which is now 50 to 100,000. I have no idea. Tell me about what it's like to perform in each of those Scenarios um I just did yeah, it's funny. Also, I just did um I just did like the mercury lounge in New York the other day for For like a album um like a first kind of like warm-up show for some For some fans and I did I did the rocks who last January like a little like little show. So I like I do really love um Going that's more like 600 people. I think I'm Maybe smart. I thought mercury lounge was like fair. Yeah, it's 50 or something. Yeah um And like those yeah those shows those shows are crazy because in a way they're actually Like that they're like incredibly energetic you only have a tiny bit of you know I did the peppermint lounge the other day um for a Spotify show But you have like such a small amount of stage the sound in your ears is like Crazy like it's it's insane like I didn't have a monitor's guy at the mercury lounge and I was like oh And afterwards I was like that was like that was interesting and then and they were like oh yeah Like and I was like oh, I didn't have anyone like doing my ears and like it's been a long time since I didn't have anyone doing my ears Like I actually when I did the Father John Misty tour I was doing like red rocks and radio city and I didn't have an ears monitor Because I just like was already like in such insane death from like open it You know what I mean? It's like you like losing so much money. It was like another Like cost I just couldn't afford at that point, but like yeah, so it's like in like it's it's a it's a it's a different kind of you have to be like so much more, you have to be like really on it when you're doing those tiny clubs and you've got to be, and like using such a small space is like, is interesting because it's, yeah, so that like in some ways, I'm like, those ones are like very like exhilarating and kind of like a fronting of like, I'm like right in front of, I'm right in front of people. But yeah, like small, small clubs, I think that was like one of my like favorite tours ever was like the coolest place in the wild tour, which was like tiny little clubs, and like things were just starting to take off. And like, you know, yeah, like good looking and just started to take off. And it was, and it was also like all the people that kind of like been into my music in the last ten, like they were into Joanna and they were into like fans, the real fans. Yeah, and they'd like been around for a long time and like, so that was like, that was like a really exciting place. And then, and then, and then yeah, I've like, and like doing the, the Lave tour last year, I got, I think that was like one of my things that I really wanted to do is just like, how do you start to feel? Cause I was, I opened for Mitsky one time in a arena, like two or three years ago. And I was, I was like, oh, this is, I felt really, really, really nervous. Like, I was like, oh, I'm not used to this at all, like this was, this was a big thing. So I wanted to, I wanted to do the Lave tour also to, to be like, what would it be like doing that for six weeks? And like, see it, and like, how would I feel at the end? Like by the end, you feel really comfortable doing a arena. It's so weird. And it's like strange that that can happen. It can normalize it. It can totally normalize where, then you're just like kind of, you know, yeah, you like stroll out, prepare you for, for us, for stadiums. Um, that, that was, uh, I, I think I actually did that after, I did it after the Taylor thing. Yeah. I did the Taylor Taylor show before. That was before. So what was that? What's it like opening for Taylor Swift? That was really scary. I mean, like, the, I mean, she makes you feel so comfortable. And I remember like getting there and she's like, I'm like very lucky to have had her as a friend for a long time. So, um, she like, I think one of her superpowers is how like comfortable she makes you feel. And she like, you know, she came, she came and saw me before and gave me a big hug and, um, she's like been so encouraging in the past, which is so nice. Um, and like, just, I remember everyone in my, like, crew and my band being like, you know, like, oh my god, she's like, you know, she's so, she makes, she just makes you feel so special and like everyone. And that's how I think, you know, I think that's how she's able to do, like, do these, like, something like that, which is just, it's like unthinkable, like, what a feat it is. Um, I'm like, yeah, really like that show. I was just like, the thing I was most excited about, like, was just getting to watch the era's show because I'd been like, I'd been once before, but I was like, I was like, me opening as like an out-of-body experience and in my hometown at Wembley. And like, my dad, like, didn't even believe that it was really happening. Like, he was, he was like unsure that this was actually like a real thing. He was just like, you know what I mean? Until I was actually out there. But I remember that, there was like, um, that little table, uh, not that, that little, she has like this door thing that comes up. And I walked out there and I could, I did, I, I can, my body completely froze. And I, like, missed, I missed like the first word and caught up right, right away. But I was, that, there was like a, I was shocked. I was in complete shock. And doing, and doing the, uh, soundcheck, I was freaked out, freaked out, because it's just empty stadium seats, like 90,000 red seats around you. And you're like, oh, that's a lot. And I didn't really even think about it until I, like, pulled up to soundcheck. And then I was, I was freaked. I was freaked. But it was, it was like the best, trippiest thing that could have happened to me. And I'd like just had a baby five months before. So it was like, it was like her first trip to London and, like, having my family there. And then Paramore, like, Haley Williams was like, said something, because I think she'd done a song on the toilet track. So she said, um, like this one, she just had something like, oh, Suki came out and she said, this one's for Mr. Waterhouse. And then my dad just, like, basically collapsed. And was like, she's calling my name. That she was, she's different, like, she's just dedicated, is that dedicated to song to me? And we're like, no, she hasn't. That's so cute, that she hasn't. You never have to correct that. He does not need to know that. He should know. That is really sweet. He was in, he was on cloud nine. Yeah, all the shit I put them through. It was, it was, it was all deleted in that night. I mean, it's so unnatural to perform in front of more than probably 250 people. Yeah. Like you, you perform it from your clan. And then you're, you're, you know, you're probably playing a night and there's somebody playing bongos. There's like a, people are cooking with, like, you're supposed to be in a clan of like 200 people. And you lit. That's how humans are supposed to word wired. We're not wired to perform in front of a thousand people. Let alone, you know, 10,000. And at some point, I've said this before, and I don't know if this is true. But I think you have this, like, there's a level of happiness or excitement that you can reach. And then you, you don't have the capability of getting more happy or more, like, yeah, is playing red rocks. I just, or playing in a arena or playing Wembley, like, they're all just insane life memories. But I don't know that you can max out how crazy. It's funny. You're saying that now, because I'm like thinking of like how I was. And I think I was like, I really, I really enjoyed the show. But then I remember, I do remember like watching her show. And then, and she called out, she called out my name and, and like, said something really nice. And I had, like, I think, like, the excitement level just, because I'd already been, like, I get, I like, I'd scream, like, her shows make you react in really like crazy ways. You just scream a lot. And she, like, you know, she just points around and you go, and you, like, it doesn't matter, like, it doesn't matter, like, I don't know, it doesn't matter who you are in that building. You just, you kind of like lose it. And, and then she, like, yeah, she, like, said my name and said something nice. And I, I literally went into shock and said, just scream. And like, but I, actually, I, like, burst into tears. It, it, I went over, like, I went over a hundred and just like, it was, it had been a lot. I was like, hey, had a baby. Like, did, did Coachella, like, right after having a baby, like, like, like, five, five and six weeks after, which was like an insane decision. And then, like, then, but, like, was like, make, I think made a music video, like, yeah, around that time too. And so, because I had a record coming out, yeah, I had her in March, and my record was coming out in September. So I just finished the record, like, the week after she was born. So it was like, a lot. It was a lot of emotional, like, like, career, fucking insane things happening. And having, and having her at the same time, it was in 2024 was, yeah, fucking insane. And, yeah, that's so insane. If people don't understand how hard, it's hard enough to be a mom, period, full stop, let alone be a working mother, and whether you're, have a job or whether you're a full-time mom, it is just so hard being a mom. And as a, I just have been watching it for five years, and it's just so hard. And then to imagine that you can go from that to performing Coachella, or Wembley's. Yeah, it was, it was fun, because like, it was, it was like strange and zanian, like, because I would, like, be, I would be, you know, I'd be, like, at home, kind of, like, you're like locked in, your home becomes, like, basically, like, kind of silent. You don't really, like, leave it much. But then, like, the times I would leave would be 90,000 people. Really crazy. Are we going to finish with some rapid fire? Katie Grass from our Patreon asks, what, what is your favorite part of the songwriting process? That's cool. You have a Patreon. I love Patreon. Yeah. I'm joined. Yeah. I really enjoy Patreon. Yeah. We got a thing. And the writer is. There you go. My favorite part of the songwriting process is, I think, like, I think, like, the parts where, I think, with parts where, like, we've kind of, like, there's music going that, that, like, feels really good. And you're trying to, like, find something that, like, fits into it. And you're, like, innocent. You're, like, my favorite thing is, like, when I'm feeling, kind of, like, I'm, I'm, like, in a good mood, I'm, maybe feeling, like, a little, like, I'm feeling, kind of, like, quite confident, maybe a little bit sassy. And I just, kind of, like, we're, I just start, like, spitting out, like, kind of, like, a little outrageous, like, isms and, like, little phrases. And, and, like, maybe you sometimes say something and everyone, like, goes a bit, like, I don't know, like, sometimes, like, it's like, if you say something and everyone goes, like, like, touch, as everyone makes everyone go, like, a little bit red. That's, that's really fun. Do you know what I mean? Well, it would be emotional too when everyone in the room, wants to, uh, that's, that's the right time to keep something in, in a song. Is everyone feels that comfortable, like, oh, should we do this? Yeah, that's when you keep us, everyone, it keeps it, the song from being vanilla. Hmm. All right. Next question is, um, do you ask your husband for feedback on demos ever? Yeah. Like, definitely. Yeah. Is that the case of music? Oh, yeah, he does. Yeah, he definitely does. He, he's always like trying to, he's got like, I did, he, he's always just like, wants me to make like trance or, well, that was the left turn. Um, okay, we're going to go to the new album. The new album is so good. And I know we're running out of time. So I'm going to run through stuff in the new album. If, what should I play if I was driving a night, which song? Oh, what would you play if you were driving a night right now off my new record? I would say play when I get drunk. I want you, boy. Okay, what should I play if I was your daughter in, uh, in her 20s? Um, I would say, uh, oh, I love like, maybe I'll go like some, I would play like floating down confidence wherever I would play, um, cliffhanger. These are all my old, uh, my, like, deluxe album from my last deluxe album. That's interesting. What should I play if I was missing someone? Uh, I would play weirder currently. That is like my most missing. That's like, uh, the, yeah, it's a song from my new record. And it is all about missing somebody, your favorite weirder. What should I listen to if I was hard broken? Um, heartbroken, I would say, uh, maybe like helpless. Or brutally, can I actually, you know, brutally is the, that was like me at my most heartbroken, sorry, the correction. Solid shot back. All right. What should I play if I was drinking alone? Um, Joana or blackout drunk. Blackout drunk, amazing. What should I, what should I play if I was on my first date? Um, first date, um, maybe my fun, my fun. And what should I play if I was walking through London? If I was walking through London, I would play Notting Hill. That's a good song. That's really something for me. Thank you for your speech. Lead single of the new album. Um, uh, thank you for doing this. Thank you so much. That was really fun. I am, uh, you know, like I said, I, I became, I'm aware of Suki through her brilliant music and all the other stuff in the history that got you to that. Is, is so cool to learn to help define who this incredible musician is. And I am so impressed with where you are in your career. And I know that this, you're going to have, I mean, your, how many albums, deep now, four albums, three, yeah. And, you know, we'll be doing this on your fifth, sixth, tenth album. This is, it just feels like we're just beginning to hear your story. And it, the new album is so good. So congratulations on that. Thank you so much for having me. I've really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. There you go. Thank you guys.