Ep. 257: Adam Lambert on Idol, Fronting Queen, and Opting Out of the Industry Game

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "And The Writer Is." I am your host, Ross Golem. Today's super vocalist has no one, not two, not three, but not an octave range. He turned from contestant to iconic front man, but underneath all the glitter theatrics and melismas is more glitter. And under that glitter is an artist who spent decades navigating fame, identity, and reinvention all the way from Los Angeles, well in New York and, you know, India and whatever. This artist embraced the songwriting community and is now a hit writer himself. And the writer is Adam Lambert. - I love your cue iPad has the most whimsical font I've ever seen for, you know, a cue iPad. Like that's incredible. It makes you happy, doesn't it, gives you the feeling. - It does, so does wearing sunglasses. You were wearing sunglasses, I'm like, I'm gonna wear sunglasses too, so. - I was like, it's early. It's been a long day. I keep putting, you know, the eyeliner has to keep going on and off and on and off. And like sometimes the eyes just need a little bit of a break. - Yeah, I have the same issue. Okay, so. - The album came out. - The album's out. I mean, you know, this isn't live, but this, you came out like a couple hours ago. - Yeah. - How do you feel? - Good, relieved. - Yeah. - Is this album self-titled? - Well, I hadn't done it before. So that's kind of like the simple answer. But, you know, I don't know, like I, it just felt like the right way to kind of be like, this is me first name basis. It feels more personal, more intimate. I don't know, I think it was just like, that summed up the story that we were telling. It's just, this is me right now. This is where I've been, this is where I'm headed. - Did it take time to discover the sound for this album or were you pretty, did you know what you wanted? - I mean, you know, it took a second to take shape, but we kind of had some really strong, clear intentions at the top of it. Like, I worked with Jess, my incredible A&R and sent her a very long reference playlist to which she replied, can you narrow this down for me a little bit? I said, sure, sure, sure. So I deleted a bunch of stuff and kind of boiled it down. And yeah, what we found was a lot of the references were 90s, like sort of alternative electronic kind of stuff. And, you know, the contemporary references were artists that were also doing that style or referring to that. So. - Yeah, I mean, there's clear interpolations, you know. - There's that, you know, there's that, there's that. - You really went into that. How did you meet Pete Napier, the executive producer? - I worked with Pete, like, it was, it's a funny story. I worked with Pete during the pandemic 'cause him and Samantha Ronson had a band. And randomly, I had known Sam socially for years and she randomly hit me up and was like, hey, I have this song I need a singer for it, you want to do it. And I was like, yeah, and you know, at this point, we were still like social distancing and all that stuff. I had purchased a good mic with the beginning of the pandemic. I was like, I need to like start taking this time and like learning how to use logic. Like, I want to do something with my time. So I had started to kind of like teach myself how to cut a vocal and so I cut the vocal for this song of theirs and sent it over to them and I said, okay, like, I don't know if it's right. And he's like, no, no, I can work with this. And the song's incredible and it's still on the shelf in the vault. We never put it out, but that introduced me to Pete. I was so impressed by him. Why did this song never come out? I don't know. I don't know. I think it had something to do with like their label. Yeah, that's all I had to say is their label. But I think that they disbanded not that long after that. So it just like didn't make sense. What's your favorite song on the album? I don't have a favorite. I can't pick a favorite. I mean, am I okay is a very special song? Why is am I okay is special song? It's like the one ballad. So it definitely stands out. And it's also, I wrote it a week after I broke up with my long time partner, long time five years, long time for gay people. That's long. Yeah. And it's a long time for. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And what is that like 25 and dog ears? It would have known it's by time seven. I can't tell you what. 26, 26, yes. I'll match it bad, Matt. Well, what is five times seven? Someone do it. It is 35. 35. So my 35 year old relationship. It ended. And a week later I was in a writing session in London. And this is what we wrote. And so it was just like raw, fresh, real. I mean, these were literal questions that I was asking myself. And questions that my therapist had prepared me that I would be asking. And I just like, I've written, you know, vulnerable, sensitive stuff before. But I feel like this one was just, it was so in the moment. I don't think I've ever written a song while I'm in the midst of those types of feelings. How did you mentally respond to finishing writing this song? Did it? It was therapy. Yeah. It was like catharsis. It let me sort of, it helped me through the process of grieving, healing, all that. And then finishing it, I think we got a good demo after the first day in the studio. And it was originally to acoustic guitar. And then producer changed it to piano. And he sent it back to me. And I was like, oh, whoa, this takes it to the next level. Did your ex hear it? Yes. What did he say? I think he was like, okay, okay. You have feelings? I didn't know. I think he was thinking that I just like flippantly was like, I'm over this, you know, and I was like, no, this was not an easy decision. This was, I'm still, you know, hurting. So yeah. I think it was good. It was a good way to, you know, fly an olive branch over to him a little bit. Do you feel like you're on the same page on what the singles should be on this album? I made myself fucking crazy trying to figure out singles and, and also the sequencing of the tracks. I mean, those two things. Yeah. That made me insane. What is the process? And made all my team insane as well because I was like, I don't know, this one goes actually number nine. But it's actually because number six goes to number one. Oh, yeah. But I mean, that was just and I being like, hmm, hmm. But you know, in the past, I've like, I've had experiences when I did like major label releases where the single was picked and I didn't really have a saying. And I was like, uh, and I was, I don't think that's the right one. I don't think that's the right one. And then it didn't do well. And I went, I told you. So we ever run the other way, like that wasn't the right one. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I'm wrong all the time. But I'm also right all the time. That makes any sense. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, I, I don't know, I just tried to trust my gut on this one. Like I was like, what, I don't, I feel like this is the vibe. Eat you alive. Just, I, I wanted the first thing to feel like bombastic and sort of rock. You know, I think that over the years, I've learned that like, you know, fans and, and even casual fans, they, they see you in a certain way. And you can try all you want to like challenge them with their perception of who you are. But sometimes it's good to also just lean into what they expect. And so I was like, you know, this album blends a lot of like, there's rock influences. There's pop. But I thought, let's do the first one. Let's do a rock kind of swag song, you know? It's interesting to have a self-titled album still have somewhere in the seat of that. The expectations of the listener influencing who you are as a writer, then you start questioning who you are as a human even in that process. Well, I tried not to question it while I was making the song. So like that, like, I was done with the album before I started worrying too much about the outside. I think I made the album more for myself this time than I ever have, which is, which is cool. Like that hasn't always been the case. It changes your expectations at least. Yeah. You know, to put thoughts in your head, but it feels like, you know, there are albums that, in songs I've, I have that I'm exceptionally proud of that did not do well commercially. And I'm, like, I'm, I'm totally satiated with that. And I've had songs that have done exceptionally well commercially that I don't care. I just don't care about, you know, like, it's fine. That's great that it's there. But I don't really, you know, it just happens I was in the room that day or like I had the idea that worked, you know? What are your expectations at this point in your career when you release an album? Well, I think, I think I've, I've started to manage the more because I don't know what to expect ever. You know, I think, I think with this one, it was kind of like, I don't want the, I don't want it's, you know, the numbers success to be the thing that defines it or or validates me or tells me if it's good or not. Like, I know that this is good this time. I feel really like that's clear. And it feels really good to just be like, well, I'm proud of it. And then yeah, of course, of course, you know, we're artists, of course, we want validation. Of course, we want people to hear our stuff. Of course, you know, and I, you know, I'm also like an entertainer. I've done other people's music and stuff too. So I'm like, I am concerned about the audience. I want the audience to have a good experience. Yeah. We're both theater kids. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, it's like, Merrow. Yeah. It is. It's a weird thing when you get from growing up doing theater and we'll get to that is that you have these, these shows that live in a genre and you, each character plays a different artists in this world and they each have their own EP or album throughout this thing. and you live in this musical space. If you're doing bye bye birdie, you're in, you know, you're in rockabilly. - Yeah, exactly. - If you're doing, Fidler, you're doing plasma music. If you're doing, you know, West Side Story, your Sondheim numbers game. Whatever it is, you know? But you, the idea that you can really live in this space and it gives you, I think when it helps you define when you're working on an album, hey, this is the world I wanna live in now. And when you work on Queen, then you're like, okay, I'm in this head space. - That's a very much how I work. - Yeah, like that's interesting. You put it, I've never heard it put that way, but that's, maybe that is the difference. Like I feel like it's like a character forms, you know? Or like a, yeah, the world. I mean, the world building thing, I kept hearing that word thrown around the last couple years and I was like, right, right, world building got it. And yeah, of course, and I'm always drawn to artists to do that. And so I think with this project, we like, we really pushed that further than I think I've pushed it ever is, you know, well, the Velvet Album was definitely a clear world. But that was the album lost to the COVID pandemic. It was like, it came out in two weeks later, everything was done, so it was sad. But this album, just like, I said to Jess, I'm like, I wanted to feel almost like our world is sort of like a dystopian post-apocalyptic, almost a little bit sci-fi. - Did you do the art direction? I mean, the art direction is amazing. - I have an art, I've creative director named Nikita that I worked with. - But that's like a credible way. - It's so great. - And it was, it was a controversial choice 'cause I wasn't totally, to be, you're hearing it here for the first guys. Like, I was like, is this the cover? Is it? Is this the right cover? It's so different and a bit strange that I was a little scared of it at first. - It feels like I'm listening to, it helps you listen to the album feeling like you're listening to it in 2030. - That's, that was literally my thing. - Like, I want this to feel like it's blasted into the future. - Yeah, it doesn't, you can't listen. You could listen to the, especially if you, the nostalgia moments. You, if the artwork feels like it belongs in a different era, you're gonna listen to it in that era. - Yeah. - But I think you listened to it in the future, if that makes sense. - Yeah, it was like, I kept saying like, like, I wanted to feel like we're like in "Dune" or something, like it's like sort of like, you know what's the future? It's like another planet maybe and it's like, it's new, but it's old, you know what I mean? Like it's both. - Are you still a theater kid? - Well, I wasn't for the longest time and then I got to go do a Broadway show the two summers ago, or two falls ago. And I missed it. Like I hadn't done it in 18 years. I hadn't done a musical. So like, it was nice to kind of go back to that. It felt full circle. It felt like I was kind of revisiting like a younger me. And I like theater people, I like the family, I like the team, I like the structure of it. That was good for me for a change 'cause I'm very unstructured person until about month three of a six month run. And then I was like, okay, structures killing me. You know, I'd like to take a vacation, but it was really, it was good. It like stretched me, it challenged me. - Yeah, month three of eight shows a week. - Yeah, it was really. - And I just six month run. So it was like, when I was done, I was like, I just wanna sit for like a week on my ass and do nothing. And I did. (laughing) - Yeah, having to pace yourself vocally is impossible. - Luckily with that show, I will say vocally, it wasn't that challenging. It's, you know, the MC in Cabaret is not necessarily like a big vocal role, but physically and mentally, it was like, it was a lot. - Yeah. - Especially in this production, you have to change like every other scene you're changing, your makeup, your hair, your full costume. And he's like sort of a shapeshifter. So it was just like a lot. But when you are singing with Queen, or do you feel like you are Adam Lambert singing with Queen, or do you feel like you're Freddie Mercury? - Hey guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of Man the Writer is, if you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me, well guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs, where we'll listen to demos, give feedback, you can hang with us directly, and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community, and maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie X, X and Sabrina Carpenter, and Lynn Manuel Miranda, and Shania Twain, and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. Do you feel like you are Adam Lambert singing with Queen or do you feel like you're Freddie Mercury? - I feel like it's me, I feel like I'm me, but I've always liked an actor. I've always tried to break down the songs as like, by their intention, in order to find how I want to sing them. And so it came down to me going like, okay, what was the expectation of the writer here, whether it was Freddie or Brian or Roger or John, like, what did they want the audience to feel? What's the vibe? What's the story they're telling? So I try to break it down that way, as opposed to like, what does the recording sound like? - If you had coffee with Freddie Mercury, what's the conversation about? - Do you want to put some whiskey in there? - Sure. - And foremost, I got, I wish I could do that, you know? The sweetest thing is that Brian and Roger both have said, like, I think you guys would have gotten along, which is like, that like made my night, when they told me that. It made me feel like, like part of the family a little bit. That's good, that's good to hear. - What's the question you would have for him? - What's this one about? What's this one about, you know? It's like, some of the songs are kind of vague and he wasn't like really upfront in the press. He was kind of private. And so there's a lot of little mysteries about him, you know? I would love to like learn more about what inspired some of the songs. - Totally. - Yeah, I mean, Brian told me at one point that play the game is sort of like, he thinks. He's like, I'm pretty sure that was Freddie's sort of talking about like his sexuality and sort of like playing the game and like fitting in and, you know, assimilating to the culture and, you know, not saying anything about it. You know, he asked questions like, it's so easy, but I can't do it, you know, in that song. Like, can't do what, you know? - Right. - So yeah. - Do you feel like you have to play the game still at all? - Oh, there's a bit. I mean, the music industry is a big old game, isn't it? I mean, that's the part of the out of that I don't like. I think, I love making, making stuff. I love making music. I love performing. I love making art. I love dressing up. I love all that. The business side of it, I'm like, it's hardcore. And it's so ever-changing and so rapidly, like, morphing into the next thing. And well, especially from when you started. - Yeah, from until now, it's like, it's been changed drastically. - It has. And it keeps going like sort of side to side back and forth. You hear like, you read like an article on Billboard where they're like, this is the new model of the business now on like three months later. It's like, well, that's, maybe that's not true. - As a California kid, were you influenced by music that was coming out of California, or were you influenced by the music your parents listened to on these coast? - Probably more with my parents listened to. My dad was like, he was a college DJ. - How awesome. - So he had like a clacket. - A fun of vinyl. Like, it's fun of vinyl. And it's, you know, 70s like, prog rock kind of stuff. He was totally like a hippie, you know, did a bunch of acid and, you know, the woods when he was a teenager. So he was like, you know, a music lover. - Yeah. - And my mom was a music lover, too she listened to more like, like, I remember her putting like the Sly Stone album on and Al Green and, you know, stuff that was a bit more like, you know, R&B pop kind of leaning. And my dad was into like the weird psychedelic rock shit. - Did they make music at all? - My dad can kind of play piano, like, just like self-taught for fun, like jamming. But my mom knows a lot of lyrics. She's good with lyrics. - Who can sing? - They don't know and sings. - That's weird. - So as I was screaming through the house as a kid, I'm sure they were like, whoa, okay, where did that come from? - Well, it's a weird thing, 'cause you don't necessarily know your kid is good. If you're not, you know, so even if, even if you're killing it around the house and you're seeing like, oh, that's cool. He can sing all these songs or maybe not. Maybe it's just like, be quiet. I wanna, you know. - There was some of both. Yeah, there was some of both. I mean, my parents were not like stage parents. They weren't like, you know, everyone gets a trophy. You're amazing. They were like real, which I'm really grateful for, that, you know, they weren't blowing smoke up my ass, like as a kid, you know? And I think you see that a lot with kids and then it gives, it's great. You do wanna encourage your kids, of course. You wanna like, you know, make them feel safe and free to express themselves, but also like, there's the flip side of where you're feeding your kid, you know, delusion, on a platter, and that's not great when you get into the real world, you know? - At what point did you realize that you were good? - I remember I was doing theater, like from Tan, I was doing musicals at this, like, with this children's theater group. And I remember we were doing "Fiddler on the Roof." - Hey, there you go. - And, you know, the Russian soldier in "Fiddler on the Roof" that sings like the big long note. What is the song? - What, the one the most? - What, I ain't, you're the big, there's a Russian soldier that does this, like big tenor solo thing in that. And I got cast to do that. And I held the note, they were like, hold the note as long as you can. The one big note at the beginning of it. And I held it for a long ass time. And they everybody kind of went, oh, oh, wow, the people were impressed. And they, I remember being like, oh, I'm good at that, like I didn't, I didn't really know if I was either, you know, until you start getting responses, you know? So, yeah, that's how it started. And then I started taking voice lessons and. - Theater in California is not, I mean, San Diego has the globe shout out to the globe. And they have-- - And the Hoya Playhouse. - And they have the Hoya Playhouse. You know, they have two major regional theaters, but still theater in-- - In California is not as prevalent as is on the Lower East Side. - No. - And that was the thing, like I always, I think, I think by the time I was a teenager, I was pretty settled on, like, I'm gonna be a performer. I wanna do musicals. - Yeah. - So my fantasy, of course, was to move to New York to do Broadway. That was the goal. But for whatever reason, I stayed in LA for like, until I did idol. - Well, why did you move to LA? - Well, I mean, I was kind of like, San Diego's, San Diego's kind of conservative. And I was kind of like, there's no opportunities here for me. There's gonna be a lot more in LA, not conservative. - Yeah, that is not how you describe me now. And I was like, yeah, I had some friends that had moved up there that I did theater with a couple summers before while I was in high school and I kind of followed them up there and was like puppy dog on their doorstep. - How old were you when you were doing that? - 19, 18, 19, yeah, 19. - Did you feel like, you know, at 18 or 19, a lot of kids are in college. They're doing the same thing. - I was supposed to go to college. I was enrolled in college. I applied to like all the big art schools and I didn't get into any of them because my grades weren't super competitive. And I hadn't done all the like extra BS that you're supposed to do. I was like, when I was in high school, I was just the only thing that I put my energy into were the extracurriculars activities. Like theater, choir, photography, all the artistic stuff. I was like, you know, and I was okay with writing, okay with history, but like math fucked me. Like math knocked me off the path. I had to go to summer school. I was like, because the whole time I was going, why do I need to know this? I'm never going to use this in my life. And I never have. - Yeah, now it's even harder to justify when someone could just say, "Hey, what's three times?" What was it? - Or A plus B equals whatever. I'm like, fuck, A and B, what are we doing? Like, let's sing about it. - Yeah. - And why don't they teach you how to do things that are practical, like your taxes or like a mortgage payment or like teach me like life stuff? - It is really weird that life on a one is not part of everybody's-- - I find that so strange. It doesn't make any sense. - Especially in a place where you can't, where you need insurance. - Yeah. - When did you start writing? - Do you know, I mean, I remember in high school doing a lot of creative writing, you know, like kind of, you know, short stories. - Like in school, like you know, they would, I took a creative writing class and that kind of sparked something for me. I enjoyed that. - Do you remember anything specific that you wrote? - Hmm. - I'm sure there's like a folder somewhere. - Yeah, I think like for like the, like the final that in that semester was like you had to write, you had to like submit like a book of like these different things and kind of check off a criteria and I got into it. I liked it. I enjoyed it. I also got really into the like, the graphic design. I was like designing stuff and, you know, my text with like, you know, borders and, you know, of course. I was like, that's a look good. And then I think when I was into my early 20s in LA when I got sort of settled there, I was smoking a lot of weed and definitely doing a lot of like creative writing. Poetry and where I was always with a pen and a notepad. - But as somebody who could sing the phone book, didn't you wanna sing those lyrics? - I don't think I knew how. Like I was like writing like prose and poetry and you know, being like, well, if they're lyrics, they have to rhyme. And I don't think I really knew how to get from point A to point B. And then I, a friend, my friend Alan Lewis, who was sort of like a big brother mentor to me and drag mother, had been like messing around on Garage Band. This was sort of like when Garage Band became a thing. Like was new, you know? And he showed it to me and I was like, "Oh, I wanna learn how to do that." And so I started messing around on Garage Band and that kind of, that got me like sort of curious about, okay, what's it like to make my own music? What's it like, I became fascinated with production and like the sounds and the layers and like how you can manipulate the vocal. And I would listen to certain recordings of artists I like and would try to like figure out how they did it. - Yeah, interesting. - And yeah, that's when I think that's when it started to sort of become like a fantasy of mine. And at the time I thought this is just a fantasy. Like there's no way I would ever become a pop rock star, you know, I didn't think it was in the cards from me at all. - A solid anecdote about not rhyming though and having hits and theater. You know the song, "You Got Trouble." Right here in Riversidia, right here in Riversidia, there's no rhyming in it. It's four minutes of no rhyming. - It's really. - It's rhythmically, rhythmically. - It's like a rap. - It's like a rap, but there's no rhyming in it. - And realize that. - If you wanna listen to something crazy, listen to "You Got Trouble" right here in Riversidia, right here in Riversidia. So, you know, you end up in Wicked. - Yeah. - Shout out Stephen Schwartz, lovely guy. - He is a lovely guy. - Yeah. - The, that show is really challenging, but it's also really fun and it's all these things. - I think I was in the ensemble. So like it was, and I was an understudy. So like I understudied "Fero," but then I was in the ensemble. And it was, did that make you wanna do it more or less? - I don't know. You know, it was funny because I had done theater in California, the years prior to that. And it was like always like a two or three-week run. That was it. - Yeah. - So it was like never enough to sort of like really wear yourself out on anything. So it kept me wanting more and more. And when I did Wicked, that was the first time I had done a run that long. I was in the national first national tour and I was in it for six months. And I was like, by the end of the six months, I was like, I'm burnt out. I don't wanna do this anymore. - Yeah. - And I think, I think I wanted more. You know, I wanted to maybe play the part permanently, but that wasn't really in the cards. And I think I remember at that end of the six months being like, okay, I wanna go back to L.A. And I wanna become a recording artist. Like at that point, I kinda, that was sort of my, I was more like clear on wanting it. It's weird 'cause there's this, you know, the just wait and you'll see, you know? And it's, how do you gotten that role? Had you been fierro for change things? - Would it change things? - Yeah, it would have changed things. - It would have changed things. - And I remember I kept kind of, you're not auditioning for Idol. - Right. - Not yet. - If your path was already like, you know, you have that on your resume. You're now looking for an equivalent part. You're now looking for Muddlin. - Yeah, it's the next step up on the ladder. - Yeah, and versus this it was like, that's a good time to jump ship. - Yeah, and it was interesting because I had, I, it was in a band for like a little while in, like I think it was in between when I did the first national, I was in this band after that. - It was a band call. - It was called the Citizen Vane. - Okay. - And it was essentially a metal band and I didn't really know much about metal, but you know, I could scream and they liked it. And looking back on it, like again, I just was so unhinged, like I just didn't really know what it was yet. - Well, one of the hardest things that people have is when they can sing anything, you know, our, you know, one of our models around this show is there are millions of singers, there are thousands of artists and there are only 40 songs per genre at the time. - Yeah. - So it's hard to, when you can sing everything, then everyone's also like, hey, you should sing wicket, then sing a metal band. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's like, no, you should sing a rock song. You should sing a rock song 'cause you can, you know, and it's like, and to be able to say, you know, six albums later, like this is me and this is my, it's like, it's, yeah. - Yeah, just because you can do something that doesn't mean you want to. Like, you know, I could probably bust out an opera song. I'm not gonna do an opera album, you know? - Right. - It's not, I don't want to. - Yeah. - I don't want to live with that and have to perform, you know, every time I do a show. - Yeah. - But yeah, fast forward two years from now, like, okay, I'm here. - Opera album. - Opera album. (laughing) - It's really good though. You've talked about, you know, American Idol a million times, but from the perspective of even, you know, song-based, there's, when you audition for it, you first, you selected the song you audition with. - Yeah. - But there's this whole process around casting songs with people who are singing on these shows, and it's gotten more-- - It's produced, it's produced. - It's guided, you know, they have to make a TV show. - Right? - That's the gig. And, you know, when I auditioned, it was like, there were different camps, like there's the, there were the TV people from Fox at the time there were the people from 19 who were the like the music management company that takes the winners and the runners-ups or whoever they want and signs them to deal. So like there were two different camps, right? And they each had different agendas. And like I was really really fortunate because I was the oldest person on my season. I was right at the cutoff, the age cutoff. What was the age cutoff? I think it was 27 and I had been working in L.A. for the like for the 10 years prior or almost six, seven years prior. So it was, it was like I had some professional experience. I like had been represented. I had like done this that and the other thing. I was probably more professionally experienced than any of the other contestants, which definitely helped me out. Like it helped me figure out what I was dealing with sort of and how to play the game. You know, how to like give the producers what they were looking for, but still do what I wanted to do. Like you learn that stuff as a performer over the years, you know. auditioning with Bohemian Rhapsody and then being the singer for Queen. It was funny because I didn't even audition with that first. The first song I sang was rock with you by Michael Jackson. Oh, that's a good song. And the judges were kind of like they didn't see it. They didn't get it. Like it was I saw their that like Bill Wildard faces and I was like, okay, this isn't going well. And mind you, I had to quit my job at Wicked. I did Wicked for six months on that national tour came back home, tried to be a rock star for a minute, ran out of money and then found out two years later that they were opening an L.A. company. And I begged to be in that. So I was in the L.A. company as well. So I was into my second year in the L.A. company when I auditioned for idol. I made me quit in order to get to the TV judges because you're not allowed to have any professional contracts in play. You're not allowed to, you know, have any ties. So I had to accept everything. Give me more more detail in that because the way the way this shows work and how people get to judges, how people get in the in especially when you live in L.A. And saying there are a lot of TV shows. There are a lot of people looking for singers. There are people who might know that Adam Lambert is an excellent singer. You know, I don't know what your journey was, but it's a little, it's a little more nuanced than I think people realize as far as how, how people get in front of the judges. It was like four rounds of producer positions. But what your very initial thing was it, hey, no, I'm an audition for American Idol, or did somebody say, hey, you should audition? No, no, it was me. I said it. And I had to go to the cattle call, like the big open call in San Francisco with like thousands of people and wait six in the morning. It was, it was, it was obnoxious. It was really brutal. Were you ever in doubt? Or was it, no, this is that I don't really know. You know, I think I had the summer prior to that I had gone to Burning Man. It was my fourth time going to burn, third time going to Burning Man. And I did a bunch of acid in the desert and sort of had an epiphany. I like all of a sudden just like figured out a way to recognize all the things that I was afraid of and just vanquish them, like just get rid of them. And I came back from that Burning Man trip and was just like revived and a weight had been lifted and all of a sudden I felt like I got to throw myself into more opportunities. I got to say yes to everything. I got to like put more eggs in different baskets and just go for it because I wanted something to happen. And so that was, that was sort of the like the push that I needed to like really go for it and the music thing. I remember like I started writing for like a publisher just to be like an in house, you know, songwriter. That was one thing that kind of got moving and then and yeah, I saw the audition notice and I was like, I've been a fan of the show for since it started. Love Kelly Clarkson. Loved Fantasia, loved, you know, Jennifer Hudson, all these people and and I remember the year before me, what was his name? David Cook had one of the year before I was on. And I remember watching that season and being like, oh, he's so smart. He's taking songs and like reinventing them, like doing different arrangements of them. And I was like, that's how you win. And so when I got in there, I was like, I think I know how to play this game, you know. When you get through the first round, the second round, the third round, now you're in front of the judges and you have to drop out of wicked to get in front of the team. So the pressure was you've designed, you've designed the contract before you do that in case you get to the where you end up. Yep. Pressure's how you walk in, you do rock with you. They're like, in my mind, I was like, fuck that because I just lost my job, which means I didn't have health insurance and, you know, all the stuff that I needed to live. How am I going to pay rent? So I was like, not taking no for an answer. And the minute I saw them kind of look at me funny, I was like, what else do you want to hear? I got, I got tricks. Like, what do you want? And they were like, well, what do you have? And I, I figured I'm like, okay, go for the classic rock. Because that's like the other thing that you can do, you know, and so I did. It's so weird because they, most people probably don't get that second song. So you did well. I kind of was really, I kind of told them I was going to do a second song. I didn't really ask. That's a confidence of somebody's 27 who's been on stage, who's two at the round. I wanted to get one of the gig. I was like, I need the gig. And yeah, I remember like, Paula was super supportive from the get go. They, they had asked like what your first concert was. And I was like, it was Paul Abdul. It was literally the first concert I ever saw. So I think instantly we like clicked. I think my first concert in a, in an arena was George Michael. Oh, lucky you. Yeah. I never got to see him live. I, I remember running around. I was like six when Faith came out. Love that song. That's just so good. I remember hearing it on the radio. Like my mom would be driving us places. And that would come on. It was such a good song. And also I need, I need you tonight by in excess. I love that. Oh, yeah. That's cool. And every time it came on my mom would say like, he's so sexy. Every time I was like, what is she talking about? Why does American Idol, why did it work so well for those first 10 years? And why is it that not just American Idol, but American Idol, the voice. Why is it so hard for them to break an artist now? I love that you ask me like, as if I know I, I have thoughts. I can speculate. I mean, I don't really know. I, I, I think like, I think streaming change things because you know, it used to be an event. Like people would have to tune in at a certain time on a certain night and watch it together. So there was this like communal sort of event about it. Like the water cooler conversation the next morning. Families were together voting was like an active thing. It was, it was just more focused. I think you had, you had a captive audience, you know? I mean, my season, there was like 30 million people watching every episode. It's like, were you ever nervous? Yeah, I was terrified. Yeah, I was completely, how do you deal with, with stage fright? NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. How do you deal with, with stage fright? Whiskey, at back then, that's what I would do. I snuck it in. You weren't allowed to have any alcohol and I would like put whiskey in like a water bottle. It's actually a really funny story. Cara Deoguardi, great writer, who I ended up writing with on my first album. She gave me kind of a hard time the whole time I was on the show. She kind of busted my balls when the other judges were into me. She was like, I was like, why does she hate me so much? So after I was doing a writing session with her and I was like, why are you bustin' my balls like that on the show? And she was like, well, the first live show that we did when you sang the Rolling Stone song. Before you went on, I heard you say to one of the runners, like, and he'd my honey water. And I was like, watch, because yeah, you were like meeting your honey water. And I thought you were this pretentious, you know, vocalist, blah, blah. And I was like, Cara, that was whiskey. And she was like, oh, now I understand you. I was like, I was terrified. I needed to loosen up to sing that rock song, you know? It was like a rock song, you know? I love Cara. She's great. We like totally clicked like after I was like, so she's like, I didn't think that I would like you. And I was like, I don't know what the problem is, you know? She thought I was uptight, you know? Honey water. That's really funny. Yeah. That's a good name for her song, Slice Water. Honey water. It has a ring to it. Or a band. Or a band. Yeah. We can start that as our side project. Honey water. The honey water too. She's honestly like, not just one of the smartest songwriters, but the smartest people that you'll ever get. Yeah, I have great time, but yeah, so like, you know, I definitely like, I would get really nervous, but I also back then like there was something about adrenaline and like the nerves that was like fuel for me. Like it really, that's why when I was on idle, I was screaming the entire time in the stratum. because I was way too excited. I was not relaxed, like ever. And so that all that frenetic energy would come out that way. And I learned over the years like to, now I don't feel that way when I perform. Now I'm like settled just 'cause I think I'm more experienced and used to it. But back then I used to get so much adrenaline. And for like big crazy rock songs that's great, 'cause it can cook ya and like push you. For the ballads it's not great 'cause then you're like shaky and you have like no, you're not grounded, you know. So that's something that like I've learned a lot about over the years and how to sort of like manage it and harness it and write it, you know? - There's so many major rock vocalists that we're not only part of that show, but a part of the zeitgeist since you've become Adam Lambert, the star we now. Have you had any cool stories with any rock stars that came up to you when you're like your voices? - No. - Nuts. - I mean yeah I've met a bunch of people. I don't know, I think obviously Brian and Roger, that's rock and roll royalty. - Of course. - I've met artists that like, I'm always like, you know who I am, like it always kinda surprises me, you know, maybe less now, but in the beginning, yeah it was like really. I remember like going to an event, you know, because I was doing the rounds at like, you know, the Grammy type events and like some of the L.A., you know, Academy Award parties and C.A., you know, agency parties and you know, I'm schmoozing. And I remember meeting randomly Justin Timberlake and he was like, this was early and he goes, you gotta do like Queen Knight at the Opera Man. And I was like, yeah, yeah, he's like, you should remake that album. I was like, huh, okay. And then look what happened with Queen, you know? Have you told Justin Timberlake this story? - I don't have his number. - Thanks Justin, you know. - He's a lovely person too. - He's talented. - You win the show, right? - I always win it out. - Second, that's right, only right, you're second. - So that's a great, that's great. - I love the people thought I won. - That's so great. I always, that's always like the American I like thing. - I did not win. - How does that make you feel? - I was cool with it actually. I was, first of all, by the time we finished the finale, I was like, I am so fried right now. I am ready for a break. My whole purpose of going on that show was to get a record deal. And before we even did the finale, I'm like telling all the T, you know? They, the powers that be, the people that ran the management company, they came into my dressing room and they were like, we wanna sign you, RCA wants to sign you, no matter what happens. And I was like, okay, great. So like, I was good. I was like, that's all I, that's all I came here to do. I wanted the opportunity to like, I kept saying to myself, look, with the music thing, I'm like, if I could just work with these great producers that I love, that I'm a fan of, something magical could happen, you know? And at the top of my list, when we started the album, I was like, Max Martin, Dr. Luke at the time, Ryan Tetter, like there were these names of people that I really looked up to and respected. And I got to work with all three of those guys, which was amazing. - That's right, you're the Chris Allen season, I know, 'cause I had a couple of songs with him on his album, in me guy, like the sweetest, coolest, down-to-earth dude. It was funny, because the whole time we were on the show, we were actually roommates for like a majority of it. - That's cool. - And we like, we just like got each other. We were like, we had each other's back. So when it was him and I in the finale, it was actually really cool, 'cause we like genuinely respected each other. It felt good. - It's interesting now, it's a badge of honor in a way. If you don't even qualify, you know, it's like, I feel like you were part of the era when if people knew who you were from that show, you became a rock star or you had it a shot at it. - You had a shot. - You had a shot. You had at least like, you could have a good swing. - It's also, but it was also a reflection of where the music industry was at for like the first 10 years of the show, because the music industry was suffering, obviously, from all the streaming sites that like Napster and LymeWire and all that stuff. So they were like on their knees in the 2000s. That's why the indie thing became so hot in the 2000s, because the majors were like, "Eh, we don't have any money, we're losing money, we don't know what to do." And then when they kind of figured it out, it started to shift again, but Idol was, I've read this and it makes sense. Like, Idol was sort of brought to America as a format from the UK, but it was really meant to like become A&R and PR and artist development for labels. Like they were like, "We need help getting to the people and building fan bases." And like, I think that's why it was sort of designed that way. - Yeah, I mean, it's the, there are a few parts to why I think American Idol really worked, but one thing was that at the time the judges were less famous than the artists. - Yeah. - You know? So you could fall in love with Adam Lambert and not feel like when Paul Abdul is the most famous person on the panel. - Yeah. - She was like the legacy artist. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Then, who's wonderful? And she's great. - Love the best. - But it's a different thing when you're, you know? - The voice is different. - The voice, obviously, they have like big stars. Like the music stars. - Yeah, and American Idol turned into that and not much of it, you know? So it made it harder to break artists when you're watching these other people. - And you also, you know, being the first, you know, the first gay contestant to be that successful from that show has, you know, that song that you're talking about, Freddie Mercury talking about, like it's, do you feel similar? - You're similar. You can't really, there's no. - I mean, I did play the game a bit on the show. I mean, I was out at 18, right? And I've always been like, once I came out as a teenager, I was, I mean, luckily my parents were really chill about it. So I had like a good support system. I was in with theater kids and creatives and, you know, club kids and all that stuff in LA. And I never really felt the challenges that other queer kids face. I didn't grow, you know, I wasn't in the Midwest. I didn't have, you know, bullies. I wasn't getting, you know, I was in the arts. So that became kind of like a bubble for me, which is, I'm grateful for it. It created a safety space for me and I could just express myself. And so I was like, really comfortable like with my label of being gay and I really liked being gay. I was really gay for my 20s. I was being gay all over town. - We were gay? - Yeah. - That would be the other. And so it was like. - Later on, I know. - I was cool, and this is. - And when it came time of the show, it was like, I wasn't closeted on the show. - Yeah. - It just never was the line of questioning when the cameras were rolling. 'Cause like that wasn't sort of standard back then. It was sort of like you were straight until proven anything else back in the day. You know, it might have literally been the policy. - Yeah. - And it was interesting because a lot of people go, oh, did they do this? Did they won't tell you not to say? And I said, no, they didn't say shit. Like they, in fact, there were some pictures that came out on the blogs right as we were going into the live shows. And there was me and an ex, like dressed up, going to like raves, kissing, you know. And they, the photos had come out and the publicists for the show actually called me. And it was the day that they were doing the top 13 event, which was the very last time that we were even going to be interviewed, like by the press before we went into the shows. Because once you're in the show, they like, they don't want you doing interviews and stuff to influence votes or they didn't at the time. And so the publicists called me and she was like, how do you want to approach this? And she was very cool and very supportive. And I said, well, what do you think I should do? And she says, I think you should do whatever you feel is right. I was like, okay. And then I was trying to get it out of her. I'm like, did you think the show is going to feel, she's like, we're down for whatever you want to do. So I was like, okay. And so when they asked me about it on the carpet, I was like, yeah, that's me. And I think they were like waiting for more. I'm like, what are you asking? Like they wouldn't ask. So I was like, well, if they're not going to ask, I'm just going to say, yeah, that's me. I'm kissing a guy, like get over it. - No, it's really, it's helpful for the community to have somebody who's confidently themselves. - Yeah. - And then it like it ends the conversation 'cause it's a stupid line of questioning anyway to give a shit about other people. - But now we get that. But I think at the time the gay community was in a very interesting spot because we were fighting for visibility and fighting for rights. I mean, gay marriage kind of like right after I did idle, that was sort of on the bill. Like we were at a very interesting turning point in mainstream culture. - And that national television is very different then. - Very different. - And the national radio is very different. - It's not bravo. - It's not bravo. - No, it's not the Broadway scene in New York. It's like 30 million people. - Yeah, yeah. - So it was like, it was a little tricky to navigate, but I, you know, I ain't stupid. I wasn't born yesterday. I kind of like had seen how queer people had fared on the show in seasons prior and it wasn't good. And I was like, let's like, unless it comes up, I don't really think it needs to be proclaimed. - Right. - I think if I had had like, you know, a boyfriend or something at the time and they had been in the audience, maybe that would have been the natural segue. But there was just no reason to talk about it, you know? - For your entertainment becomes one of the biggest albums that 19 entertainment does around American Idol, I can't see. - Did it? - I didn't realize that. - Yeah, it did great. I mean, peak number three, and Billboard 200. It's like, it's a massive album to have. It's like, yeah. - I was really in your pocket. - The guy, the guy, Ashley Newton, was the guy that did the A&R with the management company, and he was amazing. - Yeah, he's a legend. - Such a great guy, and so cool. And when we sat down, it was like, what kind of album do you wanna make? And I just loved that I was dealing with, 'cause after the confidence of getting so far in the show, I was like, self assured to be like, I'm gonna say what I wanna do, you know? I'm like, I'm not gonna do the same old idol, formulaic, adult contemporary crap. I don't wanna do that, that's not me. And they were like, okay, what do you wanna do? I'm like, I wanna do like a pop, I want them to pop music. And rock, you know, pop rock. I was like, I wanna do like, what like pink and Kelly Clarkson? I wanna do that stuff that's like, edgier and cooler. And then of course, like Gaga, it was just breaking, and I was like, like her, there's like room to do the glam theatrical thing, like that's me, like let me do that. And so they got it and Ashley, like, because we had to put the album together so quick, I didn't get into the writer's room on a lot of these songs on that first album, because we were just doing it fast. But he got songs from like major established acts, you know, Gaga wrote a song on the album. - Yeah, I mean, pink. - Pink, what do you want from me? I mean, it was like, they got Rivers Cuomo from Weezer. They got Matt Bellamy from Muse. They have a song from The Darkness, Justin Hawkins. They have, I mean, Linda Perry did a song. I mean, it was like, oh, the Linda Perry one I did, no, she wrote it. I didn't write it, she wrote it. I didn't write, yeah, I don't think I wrote much on that. There was a couple little things that I started writing, but not much. When, you know, the second single is, what do you want from me? The first single comes out, it's, does fine. - Well, the first single, the first single was great, and they spent half a million dollars on a music video. Like they were gearing up to like make that the big deals before you entertainment. And then I performed on the AMAs the night before the song came out, and it had a big controversy, 'cause I kissed a guy. - Yeah, you kissed a keyboardist. - Yeah. And so, there were complaints, people were freaked out, all of a sudden, like all the business side of it, they were all going, oh shit, oh shit. This is not what we were trying to do. You know, we didn't know he was going to do that. And so everyone was like freaked out. - Who knew you were, who did know you were going to do that? Do you see it? - Yeah, I didn't actually even know I was going to do it. It was like, I was just kind of the honey water. It was the honey water, I did have a little honey water. But it was just kind of like a moment. I was sitting in the audience watching like all the acts before me, and they were killing it, and I got really like intimidated. And I got up there, and it wasn't my best performance. It was a little sloppy. I was a little pitchy. I was having a hard time like hitting all my marks. I fell at one point and did, which turned into a dive role. I don't know what angel was protecting me on that. And so I was like, I was like, this is a wreck. This is a train wreck. And by the time I got to the end of the number, I was like, I got to do something to make distract people from out bad. So in a split second, I'm like, I'm gonna kiss the guy that I've actually been making out with a bit at home with our honey water. I'm like, we've kissed before. So this is consensual, you know, and he loved it. And so yeah, I kissed him. Yeah. What do you want from me? It's huge. And it's pink and max and shellbeck, shadow max, shadow shellbeck, Alicia, great people. It's a massive song. I remember they sent me the demo with her singing. Uh huh. 'Cause it was supposed to be on her album. And it was like done. Like the song was like done. And for whatever reason, she didn't conclude. She was like, no, I don't want this one of the album. And so they came, they're like, we have a song to paint and they played it from out like, this is great. Of course, I want to sing this. And of course, I want to work with Max Martin and shellbeck like big fan. Do you feel like when you cut outside songs versus writing songs, and it means something different to you? Or do you, do you, you know, as somebody who's an actor who's also can interpret songs in the way that they were saying like, David Cook could do. You know, we're easy. - I think for me-- - You mean, it's hard not to hear that song and not think it's yours. - Well, it's like, it's nothing like if I can find my own story in it and relate to it, then it's good. Then I'll, you know, I think one thing I will say that is that early on with demos is that I would end up taking on a lot of the mannerisms of the singer who sang the demo, which I've learned how to like, not do now, like I found my voice a little bit more now. A lot more now. But I definitely think Pink influenced how I sang the song for sure. - Yeah. - And she's so good. - And thank you, Pink. - Yeah, right. - She's incredible. - I wrote a song with their called Barbees that I came out and when I was vocal producing, I remember saying to the engineers, like, let's just make sure that there's no auto tune on because I can't really, it's so accurate that I can't really tell what I don't want. I want to be able to edit the actual performances. Like there is no auto tune on it. And it's, you know, she comes from a generation that didn't grow up on auto tune. - You know, same with you. - Yeah. - So it's like, you know, when you get the opportunity to record real singers who are just fabulous with their intonation, you know, it's a different game in the room because you're like, oh, this is, it's almost intimidating. - It's real. - Yeah, it's real and you have to, you're trying to edit something that's wonderful every time. And so, you know, I'm getting to sing that kind of song is pretty great. - You know, she's still, she's in the BG track of that song. - Oh, that's cool. - Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, when I go and do like live stuff, you know, we have all the stems. And like if you isolate the vocal stems, you can kind of, it's very hard. - It's very hard. - You're doing like an alto lower harmony. - Yeah. - Are you in any song that you're not the front man in? Like, are you using background vocals on any songs that have come out? - Same background. No, I sang like like a little featured part on a boy George record. - That's cool. - A couple of years ago. I did, I did a song on the Avici album and a lot of people don't know it's me because they didn't credit any of the singers. - Yeah. - They didn't say featuring Aloe Black or like they didn't put our names on it. - What song was it? - A lay me down with My O Rogers. My O Rogers and I did it with, with Tim Avici, yeah. It was, and it was like a really last minute like, spur of the moment. Nylon, I had met, he had played on a song on my second album. We got along really well and he's like, "Hey, I'm working, he called me one day." And he was like, "I'm working with the Vici." It was like a Monday. He's like, "Come to the studio right now. I want to, I want you to help me write this song." And I was like, "I went out last night. I'm like, kind of fried." Can we do it tomorrow? He's like, "Nope, this is the only day." I was like, "Hung over his fuck." And I was like, "I'm just gonna go. I'm gonna do it." And we wrote that, I wrote the lyrics of that. From my own, I wrote the verses, just freestyle, kind of, and he had the chorus sort of worked out and just like, laid it down. It was like, it took like an hour. - What was it Vici? - It was crazy. He was really cool. He wasn't there for that session. I ended up meeting him though later because Nylon was doing some more writing with him in the Hamptons and I was on the East Coast and I went and I stayed with him for like three days and worked with them together. And he was great. - You were to now, Rodgers and I Vici together. - Yeah. - It was cool. - Sickest session of all time. - I've been in the room with, I got to work at Pharrell for a week too. That was like, that was mind blowing. - What's it like to do this for a. - He's brilliant. I mean, he's brilliant. And he's just so cool. And like, no bullshit, which I liked. Like, he was kinda like, "No, that doesn't sound good." I was like, "Okay." He's like, "That sounds good." You know, he was just like, direct, which was great. - It's interesting the culture of EDM stuff where they don't credit some people, you know? - I was a little annoyed, to be honest. I don't think that was a Vichy's thing. That was his manager's choice. And his manager wanted to make. I understood what he was probably going for. He was like, "I wanted to make a Vichy, the star." I get it, but. - I think I, a Galanta song called "Pillow Fights" and the song's so good. But it's a weird thing. It's like having to deal with, you deal with sound exchange and you get like your royalties and you do the thing. And you're like, you're still a singer on it, but it's a weird thing 'cause you're like, that's, it was interesting to see it live. And you're like, I feel disconnected, considering that it's. - Well, I just feel like in this day and age especially, and maybe it was sort of just shifting into streaming, I think at that point too, for him. But like, everyone needs as much help as they, everyone needs help. You know, an artist needs their credit, a writer needs their credit. Like, this is a tough business. We're all trying to win. We're all trying to like make more art and make a living and survive. Like, don't be selfish. Like, take people along for the ride with you. I'm a firm believer in that. I just think like, it takes a village to do this stuff. It's not just one person, like, bring them with you, you know? - Getting Grammy nominated is really cool. - That was very cool. - And especially coming off of a show and you're not, you know, it happens so fast. It's like, really within a year and a half, you're going to the Grammy. - That was exciting. That was really exciting. - How did your family feel by you getting nominated for a Grammy? - They were proud of me. It was just such a, it was so validating, you know? It was like, okay, because my one thing with Idol was that, you know, coming off of that show, it's like you were put into a category a bit and some people wouldn't take you seriously because you were on a talent show. And so, like, there was some doors that were not open to me because of that. Like, you know, you weren't considered like quite the real deal or quite cool or whatever. And so getting the Grammy Nam was like a nice moment to sort of feel like, okay. the industry's recognizing something, which was really nice. It probably helped that Max Martin produced it. Max is a lovely human. He's like the best. He's been so supportive, so lovely. And like after that, then we did a whole career. Yeah. We did a whole album together. Yeah, exactly. We did the original high album here in shell back in, in shell box, great too. Yeah. I mean, I was thrilled to work with them on that. I mean, they're just, like the best, Max is like the best in the business. They're also just so nice. What do you think makes Max and shell back so great? The fact that they are nice and down to earth, that helps. That really helps. It's like they're not, they're, they don't have these giant obnoxious egos. They're like, they genuinely love making music and they love artists, you know? And they're humble and sort of, yeah, down to earth, dry sense of humor, like such a dry sense of humor, which I love. Yeah. It's great. I did a thing last year or two years ago now in Sweden for Queen, like it was like a tribute thing and Max was there because we were in Sweden and we all were sitting at tables, you know, doing a dinner before the show and Max said something really nice to me. He said, you know what I love about you and I said, well, he goes, whenever you go down stage, I don't have to worry. I just know you're going to deliver and I don't have to worry. He's like, some of the other people I've worked with when they get, I'm like, I'm like worried, how are they going to do? Is it going to be good? He's like, that's a really nice compliment from him, especially from him. Yeah. Brian Mann, Roger Taylor, call you and say, hey, you want to sing Queen, like how does Queen contact Adam Lambert and say, we should try singing at the MTV Europe music awards. They came onto the finale of Idol. They were asked by the producers to perform and Chris and I performed, we were the champions with them. So that was our first time meeting. It was like, there was something in the air, something clicked. There was like a resonant thing and it just felt good. And I think they, you know, I had sung with him in rap series, so the seed was planted. I think also the, apparently they saw a video of me singing Led Zeppelin during the run of the shows, like the rock week, I sang a whole lot of love and they were impressed by that. So cool. Trespassing. That's a big album. Yeah. Good job on that. That went number one. Yeah. First openly gay artists to debut at number one on Billboard 200. Which when they told me that said, really, like I did no idea. That is actually amazing that it took that long. Yeah. It's not the first time it's happened. It's the first time in openly gay. Yeah. Man. So it's interesting when you're talking about when it came out later. Yeah. But interesting that it took that it's not like we're in 1960, right? You know, you're talking about in the last 10, 15 years, these kinds of things have happened. Do you feel obligated to be a leader in the community or is it-- I don't feel obligated. I think it's something that I chose to, that I was drawn to, that I chose to dig into, I think. You know, it was interesting because when it all started, because there wasn't, you know, because of like milestones like that, and because there weren't a lot of gay men and like openly gay men in like the current pop music world, there was extra focus on it. Like, you know, and also we were at a time where the media was so excited about it. Like they were, they wanted the headline. They wanted to put, make someone to a bit of a poster child and have them wave the flag. And my publicist at the time was, was, he's gay and he was really excited as well. Because he had worked on Idol for years and never had a contestant that he could kind of do the gay press with and like, you know, make some statements with. And so we worked really well together at Roger. And I think that that, there were moments where I was like, wow, this is like the headline is that I'm gay and no one's talking about the music. Okay. You know, like, yeah, would I would I'd rather have been a little more balanced, sure. But I also like felt strongly about being proud and sort of not apologizing for it and like being open about it. Like I thought that I could do some good, you know. Yeah, it's weird, man. We're all, I mean, we're all just doing our own journey in the music industry. And so part of that comes the, you know, who you are as a human just comes with you. Whatever you're, you know, it's, it's just part of the deal. It's like, you can't had that, you know, and the, and the other thing that was interesting is that it was like, I felt like if I had my publicist or if I kept, if I started being like, let's not talk about gay, then all of a sudden, I'm like giving into the shame. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not my vibe. Like I'm going to be open and proud and like, you know, ready to talk about it. The next few years, you're in Queen officially and then, you know, and then you're in Glee, you know, you're doing all these things that were your pop star, your theater, now you're a rock star, and then you're in TV. Was it hard to find your artistic identity or was this all feeling really, you know, because it's so too unique journey, did it feel like you were actually doing the exact path you should be doing? I think those years, it was like me, the entertainer, not, not as much me the artist. I mean, I think, I think the Glee run was really fun. I mean, that felt a lot like Idol. It was like, I got to sing like a bunch of songs. We got to do recordings of them like we did on Idol. I was really out. The recordings turned out really good. Like some of them were really cool. And then, you know, acting and being on camera was like, that was a bit new. That felt good to do something a little stretch myself a little bit. Not super different from theater, but different, and yeah, so I was like, you know, I was like kind of finding my footing, but I do think that like, I had strong artistic creative ideas. The problem that I was having around those years was that they weren't being sort of, the people I was working with felt like they knew better, it felt like they're like, no, you need to do this. This is where it's going to work. We want to put you here. And I'm like, okay, but I kind of want to do this. And so there was some like tension, you know, I mean, the trespassing album is a really interesting album. It's like kind of bipolar because all the stuff that I really wanted to do is on the album and then all the stuff the label wanted me to do is also on the album. And it's not necessarily the most cohesive album because we were on two different pages. And there was good work done on both sides of it, but you know, I was like, I wanted to lead with like the funkier stuff. Like that, you know, we did a forlorn, I did a song and I did a song with Nile Rogers and Sam Sparrow. I'm like, that's what I wanted to lead with. And they wanted to do what do you want from your part too. The original high is really when you've become like a writer in many ways. So like I actually, I didn't write a lot on that album, but you're on, you're on, I mean, maybe it's just because you're on like the, you know, ghost town, you know, well, you know how it goes. Like, sometimes they give you a little cut or something. Oh, interesting. I didn't do it. I did a lot of writing. It's just none of my writing really made the cut. I was in, I spent like two months in Stockholm with the Wolf cousins and I went to the studio almost every day. And I tried to write a bunch of stuff and it was like the stuff that I did a lot of heavy lifting on. They just weren't that into so why do you think that it wasn't that good when you listen back to those songs? Do you see that? Yeah. I mean, the ones that I, yeah, the ones that didn't make the cut. Yeah, I can see why they didn't work. Yeah. I think I was still learning. And I think being with what a cool way to learn it. Yeah. I mean, being with them, it's like some of the best in the business. And I learned a lot more about, I mean, I wrote, I did a session with Tove Low. Great writer. Yeah, she's amazing. And just watching her work, like I think over the years, I've learned a lot from the writers that I've been in the room with. And then yeah, I, what did you learn contributed and I've done, you know, I've contributed ideas and what did you learn from Tove Low in particular? She trusts her gut, her, like her instinct, she doesn't overthink. And the simplicity of it is what makes it so great. It's simple. But that's kind of the Swedish thing. It's like the melodies are simple, they're symmetrical, they're like, yeah, it doesn't have to be this. Yeah. This is not the same match. Yeah. It's almost slightly mathematical, you know, it's like just it and being in those rooms and watching them work, I did learn a lot. So I think by the time I did velvet in 2019, I was very involved in that one, like that was my baby. I wrote, I think I co-wrote everything on that album and drove sort of the creative direction and like the sound of it. I didn't really, I didn't have, I didn't have an AR. I was the AR on that album, you know, so like that one was really, very much, very much, yes. Why is it helpful to have an AR? I mean, there's a list. I mean, the simplest thing is just having a second set of ears, someone to sort of be objective with you and be like, I don't like that because when you're the, when you're the creator of everything from yourself, it's like you get attached to stuff, you know, and you think your idea's amazing because you're like, look what I did, you know, having someone kind of be real with you and say, yeah, that's not a good line there. That part kind of sucks. Like, you could beat that, like that's like, that's very helpful. And then obviously like the contacts who to work with, like helping you, you know, if you have a goal, helping you, like sort of find the right people together. get that goal, you know, like knowing how to make something happen. Ghost town is a great song, by the way. It's a great song. I know that that like before ghosting over that, that song has really cool. And it's not an obvious choice. No, and that was, I mean, I definitely, we had a couple other songs that they, and when we came time to pick the single, my management at the time were like, not they didn't get the ghost town record. They didn't, they were like, what? This was also, it wasn't finished yet. It was like still a demo, and I could, I was like, no, this is going to be something special because it's so weird. It's so strange that we go from like folk country vibes to like, you know, dark house, you know, it was like such a, a left turn. And I knew I was like, that's how you're going to get people's attention. You got to do something like drastic, the oh shit moment. You know, when you hear a record, you go, oh, what? And it had that Max knew Max was like, yeah, this one's cool. That's really funny. Yeah, that's all it takes. Velvet is, I, because it's something that you're like so hands on and, and your, your hands were dirty and the writing from it. What would you tell that Adam now about his songwriting? Good job. I felt like I, like, arrived on that. Like, I felt like I was, I was getting it. Like, I got that there was a world I got that there was a sound. I, I think what I had finally learned was not to do super complicated abstract lyrics, but to go a little more like simple pop, you know, easy ideas, you know, easy hooks. But then with Velvet, it was all sort of this sort of 70s, low five world. So like, it was fun. It was fun to like create something that I had a very specific aesthetic. The thing about writing simply is it allows you to interpret and sing all over it. But when you write like a singer, that's when I think singers get themselves in trouble. It's because they're trying to write melodies that are fun to sing, but no one else can sing. Or it's not, but if you write a really simple melody, a great singer, you know, you can, you can, you can do, yeah, and again, like the, the, what, how you do it live, you can do it every one alive, 100%, but that actual recording is, is different. That takes, it takes a lot of, um, you have to like really check your ego when you're in a writing session, and you can sing four octaves or whatever. I mean, what's really not just any thing? Do you know the answer or do you know the answer you just don't want to say? I actually don't know the answer. Somebody don't know the answer. But you know, the cool thing, she's like, oh, like, what is Adam? The funny thing is up leading up to velvet. This is what, this is why I think I got to that point is that I, after the original high, I did so many writing sessions around town. And I don't know what was going on. I think my management, maybe we're just waiting for the thing that they felt like was the thing, but I wrote was so many people. I have so many songs in the vault. And these poor producers and writers that I wrote with were probably like, is it ever going to come out? Like, but I learned a lot through that process because I did a lot of sessions. So like I really felt, you know, I like did stuff like I went to that castle in Paris and France and I did that. I did, I did so many sessions. So like I started trusting myself more with what I could make and, and I met some amazing people during that time. You did, you did the community thing. I did the community thing. Every, every songwriter in LA does the circuit. It was in like, we kind of came around the same time. Everyone knows the same general writers. They all took a crack at writing a song for a day, maybe two in a day. They traveled around the world doing random sessions because some label this or you're, in your case, you're the artist. But the thing is like, you have to go in the grind of walking in. There's no song. You, you put everything into it. You sing the shit out of the demo and the song still isn't good enough. And you do it again the next day and the next day. And then at the end, you're going through all these songs and say, maybe they don't aren't all good. Some of these are good. Some of these are, and some of these are like, nah, that's the one. And if you're lucky that they picked the right one at the right time. I mean, you have to learn the way you did it. There's no shortcut. I think the problem that I had was like, I had some good songs. I didn't have anybody that was like a partner for me to like go, okay, now what are we going to do with it? Or how do we make it better? Or like, I didn't have an A&R. I didn't, and I also, for whatever reason, my management at the time were not really taking the lead there either. They were kind of like, hmm. And then I think at one point, I was going to do like an EP and I had the songs and then it just sort of like fell apart. I don't remember what was going on. I think, you know, at the time also, like I was doing a lot of work with Queen. So that was sort of the priority because that's how we were all paying the bills, fair. But yeah, it was, it was a weird time because I felt like I was putting all this creative input and output into something that like didn't have a home. So I just felt like I was just throwing my ideas into space and it started to get kind of discouraging. Oh, it's, you know, it's a discouraging process, but how did you get out of the, you know, what brought back the confidence? I think the first song that we had for the Velvet Abum was with Tommy English, was "Super Power." And Tommy's so cool, like, great producer, really chill, great energy. We got in, and it was him and Ilsi Juber, and we, Ilsi actually drums on the track, like, which is so cool. She got behind the drum kit. I just like, the minute we finished it, I was like, that's it, that's it, that's like, that's the sound. It's like a little 70s rock, but also funk, like, little disco bass line. Like, I love all those things together. And I was referencing a lot of like, some of like the indie bands that were doing sort of that kind of influence stuff. And I wanted my album to have that sort of like, indie alternative feel. And that kicked it off for me. It came out basically right before COVID. Right as the pandemic hit, right as everything got shut down. I had all of these, like, promotional TV things lined up. Performances, I had a tour with Christina Aguilera, like a co-headlining tour that was, like, in, like, already planned. And then COVID and just, like, washed it all out. Which was such a bummer. Yeah, it worked so hard on that album. It hit a lot of people in the music industry hard, but it really hit performers. Yeah. The hardest. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you know, and they're like, why don't you just perform a TikTok? Oh, and my, I, I was being essentially forced to do some dumb ass, a couple dumb ass things on, on, on social media that I was like, oh, but, you know, it did keep us going. It was, it was fine. And then, like I said, during the pandemic, I, I was like, I want to like get, since there's no one to do this with, I want to like start playing around again on the computer. And so I started learning how to lose logic. I got some good equipment. I, like, literally used YouTube to teach myself what to buy, how to do everything. What's the, you said I bought a nice mic. What was that mic, the E-box? Uh, shit. What is it? I think it's a tele-funken, like, like, uh, but it was, it's a, it's a, you know, she's a classy model, the Bentley, a Bentley. Yeah. I was like, I'm a singer. I got to get a good mic, you know. So then I, um, yeah, I like used YouTube and taught myself how to do the basics of like vocal production on logic and then started doing zoom sessions with writers has the best. Um, I, I, the goal was actually for, it was for, it was technically for a musical that I started writing, which is still in the works. That was, I literally wrote like about 20 songs via zoom with random people for this musical. Um, so that's coming. It's still in the shelf right now because I'm working on this album. But, but at the same time, I also did other music too. Like, it was like, we would do sessions and we were like, is this for the musical or is this just for me? So I had like, I had a bunch of songs that were, you know, that I was literally doing on zoom and then putting the vocals in myself and, and had these demos that were pretty shitty because, you know, I was rudimentary doing it. But we had ideas and actually there was one idea that happened during that time with Brandon Colbeen and Alexander Lewis that made it to this album. That's cool. So that's like the one that was on the shelf that I was like, we got to put this back. Do you, do you have a good catalog in your head of your demos that haven't come out? But you still like, are there still songs that are sitting there that are special? Maybe a few. I mean, I definitely think when we were finishing this album, I went back. Like, as we kind of had like the majority of it, I did go back through and sent a bunch to Jess and I was like, right, these good. And we did say like that, that real love songs got something. That's got something to it. Yeah, yeah. And there were, and the other thing was with Pete during that time, like sort of after we, after the shutdown was over and we could kind of start working again, I did some sessions with Pete Nappy. And there's two or three songs that came from that in addition to the one that I recorded for his band was Samantha Ronson that were actually the things that planted the seed for the sound of this album because he and I got in there. And we did one with like Uppsal. She did one of the songs with us. And it was like really alternative really kind of grimy kind of everything was sort of like there was like acid house influence and like everything was sort of like distressed and kind of noisy. And I had never really made music like that type of approach before that was that dirty sounding. And I was really into it. Yeah, I was like, this is cool. This is like 90s shit. It really fits. Yeah. And so when it came time to do this album, I. had those songs as references, like these are some songs I think could make this project. And that was the jump off. And so when we started figuring out, we had a bunch of different songs sort of in the works. And I said, you know, should we have like an executive producer? And everybody was like, yeah, that would be good. I was like, what about Pete? - And that, that's the in our role that you were saying they would be really helpful to have, you know, to have that. - And Jess was like, yeah, an executive producer is gonna help connect all these. And I said, what about Pete? And she was like, yeah, that would be cool. And I just knew he could like, I knew that he could get the sound that I was going for. You know, and it's funny because as the process went on, there were some songs we had that their original demo form were more traditional, like traditional rock songs for example. Like, "Eat You Alive" sounded a lot more sort of classic. And there was a few of them that fell into that category. And I brought them to Pete and I was like, "Okay, yeah, do you see me now?" It was like very much like, it sounded like a 70s rock song or 80s. And I brought them to Pete. I'm like, "Okay, Pete, let's do our thing with this." Like, how do we take this and make it sound like it was produced by like, you know, nine inch nails, meets, you know, Bjork meets massive attack, meets, you know, all these like 90s kind of touch points. And he totally got it. He totally knew what to do. - It feels like that. This is a good time to ask the, our Patreon question from Tilda says, "You've constantly evolved throughout your career. Has there ever been a moment where you question your artistic identity? If so, what helped you reconnect with yourself as an artist again?" It feels like this is sort of what you're doing. - It was getting out there and just writing. And I, you know, maybe my management team at the time kind of felt that way. They were like, "You need to just get out there and write so that you can figure out what you want to make." And I think that was true. I did some set during that time. I did sessions with Justin Tranter and his, what was the band he had? Semper precious weapons. I worked with them, I guess a group, which was really fun. It was really fun. We did a couple really cool songs. - He was my Justin Tranter anecdote, which I've talked about a bunch in Friends of Justin. But we were in the same theater school when we were seven years old. - Really? - We grew up in like, neighboring schools and then we, like, are neighboring areas with exact same age. And we ended up in the same theater, an apple tree theater. Every time I'm in Holland Park, I take a picture of it and send it to you. So it's kind of fun to be like these theater kids that go from there to, like, we end up in bands and we end up sending to the same publisher and then we end up in these kinds of conversations. - That's so fun. - And it's kind of, very, very small world. Let's go to some rapid fire. - Sure. - What's the difference between identity and brand to you? - Well, I think nowadays I think it's kind of one and the same. I mean, I think for an artist, I think the identity has become, in some cases, more of the deciding factor of your success than the talent in a lot of cases. I mean, I think audiences tend to sort of want to, they want you to be there, they want to imagine that you're their friend. That you're somebody that they identify with or somebody that they would want to date, you know? It's like, it's the personalities become sort of, it seems like it precedes the skill at this point. So I think the brand often is the individual. It's a person. - Tell me about paying songwriters. - What do you want to know? - I don't know, I mean like, you know, songwriters are, you were super involved in the songwriting community. You're part of the thing. So tell me about how you take care of songwriters that you work with. - I mean, I think that was something that Jess and I talked about early, it was just like, I'm fully aware of the fact that songwriters get the short end of the stick right now, and many are incredibly talented with cuts that do well, and they're still like having second and third jobs, and they're not getting paid correctly. And it breaks my heart, it's terrible. It's stupid. Like why, first of all, why isn't there a union? That would probably help, but it's a big ask. - I'll explain that later, but keep going. - I mean, the music industry in general, the thing that kills me is that like, it's like one of the only industries where there's not unions and protections. You know, in theater, there's tons of protections for actors and the crew and all this thing. In the film industry and TV, obviously, there's tons of union activity to protect people, to advocate for people so they get paid correctly. Why don't we have that in the music industry? There's a musicians union for like live players or like orchestra players, but that's it. - I mean, there's, we can't unionize 'cause we're independent contractors. So we can't, we're not, you know, songwriters, we're looking out for this potential bill in California that would allow uber drivers to unionize. - Right. - Because if we-- - 'Cause they're independent contractors. - 'Cause they're independent contractors. - But I guess they're all working for uber. So it's sort of like that stuff. - Yeah, so that was the, you know, we own all of our, in theory, we own our copyrights. So we could unionize, but then we're selling our copyrights. You know, and I don't think songwriters really want that. - Yeah, there's pitfalls to that, yeah, obviously. - Look, my plug there is, you know, obviously, I'm the co-chair of the songwriter composer, we have the Grammys. If you're a songwriter, you know, join the Grammys and when you do, click on that button that you identify as a songwriter and composer, and you should join songwriters of North America and Sona and NSAI if you want to join trade organizations that can actually help, you know, that's something Justin and I are very involved in Sona. I'm on the board for that. It's, there are organizations that help songwriters, but we need artists like you who talk about it. - Yeah. - 'Cause I think a lot of artists are afraid to talk about it. - Well, it's weird to me too, because a lot of the people that I've worked with, it feels strange to me that you don't get paid as a songwriter to be in the room for your time. I mean, every other business is sort of like, every other business model, it's like you get paid for your time in a hundred different occupations, you know, whether you bill after-- - Whether you own it or not. - Yeah, or whether you or whether you, you know, you build them afterwards or you get paid up front or whatever the deal is, like you get paid for your time. The fact that to do the songwriting hustle, like you just have to sort of go on spec and sort of like, I mean, a lot of producers get paid, but songwriters don't. I don't get it. - I don't get that either. And to be honest, I think that when songwriters will eventually end up with things like master points and they'll get, you know, Ivers in London in the UK has done a great job leading fees and-- - But why do producers get paid not the writers? That's because they don't own the master. - So it goes back to the thing, yeah. - They're not making the thing, but the problem is this, as a songwriter, a lot of times I'm the one in the room who's doing the vocal ranger. - Totally. - I'm playing guitar and piano and all the things on it, but if I'm a drum programmer, I get a point. But if I play guitar on it, I don't. - It's so weird to me. - That feels crazy. - Yeah, it does not, right? - And it feels crazy as songwriters don't. And as a producer of songs now, there are songs, every song I do, I really advocate for my co-writers. - I mean, we did that too. I mean, I just thought, you know. - It's just classy, man. You didn't have to do that. And it's appreciated. - I think it's fair. Like, it wasn't even like, wasn't meant to like make myself, you know. - No, but that's my job is to make sure people know that that's the kind of person you are. It isn't your job to do that. That's why you have publicism. - Yay. But yeah, I'm happy to do this. - There are 74 publicists here. And it's really awkward, they're all, and they're all dressed the exact same. (laughing) It's so weird, guys. Okay, you have like the world's best stage presence. Did you have to work at that? - I don't know if I worked at it. I think it just kind of came from being a theater kid. Really, like just being on, you know. And also that guy was saying all that frenetic energy. It's like, he has to go somewhere. So like, I was a very active performer, you know. Like, moving around, looking at the audience. Like, it's like kind of, you know, show boating a little bit in moments. If I go back to like some of the queen tours, it's like, there were moments in those sets where it was more serious and a little more like stoic, but then there were songs that were a bit more playful and campy and fun, where I vamped it up. Like, I gave it some theatricality, you know. - Is there a text chain of all the American Idol rock stars? No. Not that I'm on anymore. - I feel like there's like a, like a, hey, look at this picture of my dog from like, you did, I mean, it was so funny because I hadn't spoken to Chris Allen in a very long time. And then randomly last year, we had like a fun little text exchange, you know, just like catching up, just like, how have you been. It was really nice to chat with him. And then also there was a, there was one contestant on the show, Matt Gerard, was his name, every once in a while, I get like random texts from him. Like, he like really tried to like keep the group, The family, it was really sweet. It's really sweet. But I've lost touch. And then Alison, your heat, I've stayed in touch with for my season, also had a Max Martin song. Yeah. She did. And we toured to get. She was my opening act on my first tour. That's cool. And then she, she's like moved into, she sings backgrounds for everybody. She's always on TV. She's always, she works with Ricky Minor a lot. She's so talented and so lovely. What's the hardest part of your career? The hardest part? Yeah. It's a big question. I don't know, I think, I think the first couple of years were weird. Like I was like, I didn't really, you know, it happened really fast. Your, you know, fame is a funny little thing. It's, it's strange to adjust to. I mean, luckily I was a little older. I can't imagine going into it as a teenager, but it, it's an, it's an adjustment. Like your anonymity is sort of compromised. You have to like, it's, it is a sort of sacrifice in certain ways, but it's also like an incredible, you know, win. So it's both. And just sort of reckoning with that and trying to figure out the balance and trying to compartmentalize like my needs and my personal life with like a public thing. That was a little tricky. Dating was weird adjustment with that. Because you were famous or yeah, and busy, you know, but like, that's still a weird thing. And I'm not even that famous. Imagine the people I can't imagine like the A-list celebrities that are like, you know, that have like, you know, 40 million followers, 100 million followers, I can't imagine what that's like. That's crazy. Do you want to be more famous? No. Necessarily. No. Do I want a little more success? Sure. What is success? More people listening to the music, more opportunities, you know? But I am happy like, you know, like with this album, like I'm getting a lot of great responses. And you know, like with the velvet album, it was, you know, like we said, the COVID kind of washed up, but you know what? It was the best reviews I've ever gotten. So that like knowing that the work is good, that like what I created is appreciated and respected, that's that's winning for me. It really is. Like that feels really good, you know? And then you would hope that that word would get around and more people would listen to it, you know? Because like everybody else, we got to pay the bills. You know, I got to, I got to pay rent, you know? And that, you know, the more people that listen, the more opportunities you have, the more tickets you can sell, obviously, that would be great. It's so interesting because you, you know, you, you've built this career that's super enviable, enviable. You know, you get to, you get to perform with maybe the best rock band of all time. You get to, you get to record songs and the best writers of all time. You become a great writer who then now can write with the best writers of all time. You're releasing six albums as an artist and, you know, you, it seems like the opportunities are, are endless. And it's a, it's a weird thing when you're, you know, it's not my life, it's your, yeah, your life. One of my, one of my fatal flaws is that I, I have a tendency to sort of nitpick the negative side of things like I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, zero in on what something isn't. And sometimes what I need to do is go, okay, but what is it, you know, that's human, man. Yeah. And that's something that I'm always working on that I had it to decide. And also like being able to look in the mirror and recognize what your struggles are and your challenges are is a big first step. And a lot of this album, sort of, centers around that. It centers around me being able to go, okay, you're not perfect, obviously. And I'm, and I'm not trying to communicate this idealized superhero person. It's like, no, I have flaws, you know, I have things that I fuck up on. I have things that I need to work on. I have things that I feel stupid about or guilty about or, you know, ashamed about, you know. And I put that into these songs. It was, it's the first time I think I'm showing like the uglier side of who I am, you know, which I think is, you know, that feels really liberating. Super cathartic. Yeah. You know, and that's why again, Adam, first name based, like, you could see the good, the bad and the ugly here, you know? Well, I appreciate you doing this podcast again, as I said, you know, there, your, your journey really is coincidental, because, you know, I didn't, I started co-writing in, in 2007, '09, where I was like, I've been in bands and I'm in LA the same time you are, and you're seeing some of these. Those were good years, weren't they? Yeah, they are. It was a different, it was a different time, and it was very fun. LA had a lot of money, there was, the parties were wide. Yeah. This was hard to explain to people when you'd have these, it's, I had no money for the, for a few of these years where I could drink, free, with great food, and because you're just, there are four parties in the night that are red carpet events, this, you don't even have to be a star, you just maybe have to know a couple people. No, the right people. You're getting, you're getting in these places, and it's like, we could talk about the friends that we have in common later, because I'm sure we, I'm starting to figure out who some of those people are, but like, you know, the one person that does the door for SBE, and you're, you're set. It's just a weird thing, and you go and, and there's Coldplay playing a Nokia show or something, like, some party that's, that's, you know, it was hide, it was hide for me. Remember, hide? Yeah, of course. I mean, to go, that was the club to get into, it was hard to get into, I somehow met the right people and could get in, and it was like everybody was in there, and it was this tiny little room. With me. And DJ AM was killing it, like, doing all these amazing mashups live, I mean, it was like a different time. Yeah, we're just trying to Travis Barker about that. It's like, those are those events, and you can't, yeah, LA was a different, I also think, you know, this is also people, maybe people had an iPhone, and if they did, pre-social media, yeah. The media has been amazing in some ways, but it's also, like, kind of killed some things, you know? It's like, one of my best friends has a, has a bar, and it talks about how, you know, a lot of the people, they'll meet on some app, and then they'll go to this bar, and then they'll drink, you know, water or something, because they've already met, you know, like, it's not like when we're going to those clubs, and you're like, it's a different era. Well, and I, I was talking to some of the last night about this, and it was like a big aha moment that I hadn't really considered. I think part of what's taken all the nightlife, like, it's dialed down the nightlife in LA is GLP ones. Oh, that's funny. And we'll go, because you don't really want to drink that much on it. You don't really, you can't get a buzz. You're like, kind of, kind of makes you a little blase about life a little bit, like you're skinny, but you're kind of like, and I've been on one for three years. So I can, I can attest that like, I'm like, sometimes I'm like, ugh, do I want to go out? Like, you're just not, you're like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm skinny. I got the Jomo, I'm like the joy of missing out real, but I literally think that's what's fucking with the nightlife in LA, because I think a lot of people are on this GLP one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think about it for a minute out there, y'all, like, who's on a GLP one? Do you go out as much as you used to? You don't do you. You don't drink as much as you used to. You don't, you don't eat, you don't want to go to a restaurant. You're not hungry. I mean, we always provide donuts. Yeah. And I can tell the GLP ones have gotten, I didn't even look at that declare over there. No, I know what the one with my name on it. I didn't even see it. I hand carved it in it. I thank you so much for doing this man really. Thanks for having me. Here you go. That's your episode.