Ep. 254: Zooey Deschanel | Her Secret Identity + The Journey of She & Him

Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's multi-hyphen knit entertainer dances between acting and music like hyphens between phrases that need hyphens. Her performances are whimsical without being flimsycule, timeless without being stuck in the past and personal without excluding the viewer forward slash listener. All the way from here, California, this, and New York now, this woman has carved a unique musical legacy because her voice is instantly recognizable whether on film or on vinyl. And The Writer is Zoe Dishonet. I'm not sure. I mean, I live here mostly. I thought you were in New York. Well, I have a place in New York, but I'm mostly in, yeah. Did you ever want to live in New York? Oh my God, yes. New York is the coolest. It is the best. I love just like the feeling that you can like leave your apartment at any moment and like something is going on outside, even if it's three in the morning. Yeah, it's also a weird place when you go when you're trying to. I find it hard to write there because I just want to be outside with everyone else. I like massive phomo there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I write by myself. So I very much have to be in a very meditative state. So when I'm writing, so I kind of need like to be inside for like two days. So New York might not be my writing, happy place. You have to be in a meditative state in an era where everybody's stealing your attention. How do you get into a meditative state? So actually it was a process, refining my process like through having kids, through having other jobs that took up a lot of my time through social media becoming like such a big thing that's in the middle of all of our worlds. I actually just erased all social media from my devices. I still like have people post for me, but I don't look at it because what's meaningful to me is self-expression and I don't get to do that if I'm like scrolling all the time. How do you, this is maybe a load of question, but how do you stay in the loop if you're not on your phone? I've never been in the loop. That's how I say when I say I stay in the loop, like I'm staying in the loop of things that happened like like 50 to 70 years ago, but so I am like always discovering stuff that's new to me, but I will say the caveat to that is that I have a 9 and 10 year old. I have a 9 year old boy and a 10 year old girl and my 10 year old girl loves pop music. So I hear all this, I was like, I never listen to any pop music like basically ever and then she's gotten me like to listen to pop music and I love it. It's like we're in such a good era of pop music, so and then my son likes like film scores and old school hit pop. So it's fun to discover music through them. What kind of pop music is good these days? I mean, I like actually, like my daughter likes, she has good taste. She likes Olivia Rodrigo and Sabrina Carpenter and I keep arguing that it's an amazing era for music and I think a lot of people who are like to be haters, you know, or are afraid to grow or put in the effort, don't recognize how vast the popular music landscape is right now. And I actually, I see it so much because I think what was, you know, when I first started like, you know, putting music out with she and him and, you know, I was writing my own music and then, you know, Matt produces it and we were really outside the box and, you know, it was very much in the indie world. And what was pop then was very prescribed, whereas I feel like now there's a huge variety of what can be pop music and what can hit, you know, I think actually the good side of social media is that people can be exposed to music that they would like without radio, without all these like sort of gatekeepers and sort of just what hits people is, is what's, you know, authentic, I think, and I like that. So yeah, that's incredible. I think there's a, whenever I see someone calling someone industry plant right now, you're like, we're doing what? Like, the industry can't make anything happen right now. Like in any entertainment, they can't make anything happen. So the idea that the industry can be this Vengali, like, I'm going to make puppet master, make this person a star is like, you are not, you definitely don't know the business if you think that the industry is pulling strings these days because they are failing hard at that. I agree and I also think that, that like when it comes to just the kind of corporate side, it feels like there's so much fear and I just don't think fear is ever the way that like to go when you're doing something artistic, like, should not be afraid. Like it shouldn't be like measured. It should be like, like unbridled. Man, it's so hard to do that when you're seeing, you know, it's, it's so hard when the industry, all industries, not just entertainment, they copy what's current or they try to replicate in their way, something that they know it's, you know, it's a proven entity or it's something that they can, they can copy and it's really hard even as a, a creator to be like, I'm going to write something totally unique that no one else is doing. You know, it feels like a privilege, almost a privilege place to feel like you can explore art. Yeah. I don't know if that's taught. Well, I, I, I think there's one thing that I definitely benefited from was that I was never on anyone's radar, like it was like the last thing, like I think partially because I was like an actor first, but like I was still writing all this music since I was a little kid, right? And I was, I was writing music and I was always playing music and I was had bands and I was like in cabaret acts and I did a million things. And then I just like, I would do theater and I audition for some stuff and then I got some successes and actor. And after that, people like, oh, you'll never be able to make a record. You'll never be able to do it. You'll never become successful and no one will ever take you seriously. And I was just writing music as pure self expression. It had nothing to do with anyone. It just had to do with, with music I loved and it was because I loved it so much and and I never even knew if it would ever be heard in the world. And even still to this day, even though I've been making, you know, putting records out for 20 years and, you know, writing music my whole life, I still have a kind of secret agent, of identity as a songwriter where even people I know don't know that I write music. Yeah. The fact that this is an important lesson for those who don't know who the writer is for she and him. It's me. Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not, why do you think people give the bad advice to, to, why did people give you that bad advice saying no one will take you serious as a musician? Because there wasn't a precedent and it is true that there's a lot of, I mean, no matter who you are, I think there's going to be, everybody's going to have hurdles, like nobody just has like this like super easy time and with, with no obstacles, right? But I think there was this particular hurdle was that, you know, when you think of actors who then, you know, you think of their, you know, artists like musical artists that would then transition to acting and they'd be like, isn't that incredible? Like they, they can act. But like if an actor did it, it was like, oh, it's like this vanity project or like it's really bad or, you know, and there hadn't been a lot of people to do that. And so I was just told like, this is not going to work out. And then I met Matt and now Matt is like the most supportive, like outside the box person, you'll ever meet, like he doesn't do anything like, you know, inside of, you know, like he just, he marches to the beat of his own drummer and he was just like, I love your songs. I love getting to produce these songs. I'm so, you know, excited to work on these songs, like I love doing this. And so that gave me confidence. And when we first were working on she and him, it was going to be my record. Like the first volume one was just going to be my record. And then after we were done with it and we were trying to figure out what to do, I got really nervous because a bunch of people were like, oh, no way, like you can't do this. Like, people like, people like, was it your, not to interrupt, but yeah, yeah, go ahead. You know, a lot of my friends, they were like, well, they were like, you know, they're like, that have been actors who've tried to do music. - Yeah. - Their teams are experts in television and film. - Oh, right. - And they have not a lot of knowledge of the music business. - Yeah. - Were you using the same team or did you have to develop a whole separate career? - No, I had a whole separate team. I had a whole separate career. But so it was actually Matt's idea. He goes, you know, I would love to start a band with you. I love working on your songs. It was fun for him because he does his own stuff and that's one process for him. But like was she and him, he gets to just kind of use a different part of his brain and creativity. So I was like, that was like my life line. Like I said to myself, you know, we could do this anonymously and nobody would know it was me. And then they can't judge it through this lens of, oh, I know what this is before they listen to it. So you were aware of that before you released the first song. You were aware that that was a, the hurdle. - Yeah, so we, oh very aware. And we got signed to merge and who are amazing and all artists themselves. So like a very artist friendly place. And then we were like, why don't we send out the first like press records, you know, without any information on who she and him is. It's just a new band. And then all the reviews came back without anybody knowing it was like me and M. Ward. And then that was one of the best things that we ever, like that was a very good strategic move. But I had to make peace with the fact that like, people may never know that I write music or songs. - When was it that they discovered? - Pretty soon, you know, 'cause once you play shows, people think, did you see, yeah, right. That was, but did they, did anybody change their mind on whether they liked it or not because of that? Or did they double down because? - No, it was, it was like people just, had already formed the opinion that they, you know, liked it or whatever, you know, without that. You know, the way we record like is very unique. So it was kind of different from what was coming out then, you know. - It's great 'cause it also, it came out in, it's probably came out the last possible year before iPhones, you know. - That's true, yeah. - So it comes out in an era where people listen to full albums. - Yeah. - You know, they would, if you bought it, you probably bought the whole album and not the single. - Yeah. - You know, like you could really die. Like the timing of it is, you know, it just came out in the perfect time. - I'll be it that it was 2008, which is like a tough year. - A tough year. - But, but that people could consume it in a way that it was intended to be consumed. - Yes, exactly. - Which feels weird because like, you know, I thought I saw your face today is the number one song on TikTok right now. - That's so crazy. It also wasn't a single. I'm gonna tell you of some fun fact. Never single, nobody ever thought that was anything to write home about. I mean, people liked the song, but it wasn't like, oh, this is the banger on the record. There's like other songs were definitely more, you know, the ones people singled out. Also, it was of she and him songs that we recorded, that we have recorded. I wrote many songs before this, but like, it was the earliest of all my songs. Like, I wrote that in 2000 or 1999, maybe. I wrote it. - That's awesome. - And it was just sitting around forever. It was just like in my toolbox. - It's in your trunk. - It was in my trunk. - Yeah, and it was the song I was like, you know when you have this feeling where you go, you know, maybe nobody else will like it, but I like it. So I think some people will like it, you know? - It's so great. Do your kids listen to it? - Yeah, I mean, like, they probably aren't like, let's listen to your songs, mommy, but they do like it, and they, you know. They definitely will, will, if I wanted to listen to a bunch of my music, they would. - Do you remember the day you wrote that song? - Yes. - Tell me about how you wrote. I thought I saw your face today. - Hey guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of "Am The Writer" is, if you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, 'cause we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs, where we'll listen to demos, give feedback, you can hang with us directly, and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community, and maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes with Charlie Xiegson, Sabrina Carpenter, Lynn Manuel Miranda, and Shania Twain, and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. - Yeah. - Tell me about how you wrote, I thought I saw your face today. - Okay, so I had a friend that was going to college, and I was really sad, and I was just thinking about being in the car with them, and he turned away, and his face was against the trees, and that was the first line that came to me. And a lot of the way that song is the chord structure is very much because I was in jazz bands and Cabaret acts, and I would be transposing all the music, because we had a piano player, but we had to pay him, and so back then, you couldn't just put it in a computer program, you had to sit there, and I would copy music at the brand library in Glendale, and then I'd go home, and I'd be transposing it all for us alto girls, and everything was up a force, and checking all the music, so I'd be playing through, and I was like, "These chords sound cool." And it would be like, it's why there's a lot of stuff in there, like Matt was like, "This is so cool." It goes like, and the bridge, it goes from major to minor, and then minor to major, and I'm like, "I know." It's 'cause I was like listening like Gershwin, a cold porter, and this was the stuff that I was playing, and so it's kind of just coming out of a really big on era. - Yeah, I definitely, then trunk songs really checks out, - Yeah, trunks songs for sure. - What's also great is like, you wrote that, that's before a lot of the movies, that the, let's go back and tell the beginning a little bit. From the perspective of you as a musician, you're raised in a family that obviously loved art. Tell me about the music that you grew up with, and who introduces you to what kind of music? - Yes, so my dad is very musical, and his whole family is very musical. And I just grew up with like very artistic, like my mom is an actor, my dad's a cinematographer, my mom is also a writer, my dad is also a director, like they do a lot of different creative things, and they're very supportive creatively. So like whatever we wanted to do, we could get lessons in. So if we wanted to like play piano or sing, or you know, sew or make pottery, like they'd be like, they'd go way out of their way to like support us creatively. - This is us being you and your sister. - Yeah, my sister, yeah. And my dad actually had this kind of funny history and music, and that was when he was in college, he put on concerts. So he put on like big brother in the holding company in Jimmy Hendrix and Fleetwood Mac before the like, current lineup, like the, you know, early lineup and like cream and all these shows because he was like, yeah, it was like me and my friends, and we just like wanted to see these people play and like they weren't playing. So we were like, let's put on a show. And so they like put on shows at the Shrine exhibition hall and my dad would do the light show. I mean, he's like a DP, so that makes sense. But he loves music. And like an early memory was like, when I was like probably like nine or 10, my dad got obsessed with stereo equipment. And before he bought a stereo, like, and like all the shit that goes with the amp and the preamp and all the stuff, he had subscriptions to like three different stereo magazines that he read for a year to two years before he bought a sound set up. And then once he liked that with everything. Yes, but like, well, he only cares that much about certain things. And then once he bought it, he would take this like easy chair and you like sit it in the middle. in the weirdest place just so he could like listen to music like in the perfect position. Like it was very, he was very like scholarly about that, you know, that thing. And when I woke up on Saturday morning, he was always playing records like he had this old record collection. He played like really old country music and, you know, he had like a lot of records from like the 70s that I would then, you know, this was like the 90s. I would go and I'd be like, well, what's cool is I don't have to spend my money on CDs. I can just go like get my dad's record collection, you know, and there's like a lot of great stuff in there. It's crazy to think that the songs from the 70s in the 90s is like the songs from what we're discussing with the first she and record that's that's not any different than it being. 1996 and wanting some from 1978. I know. And like, we were born the same year. And so it's like, yeah, I mean, this is a, this is a circuitous, but I didn't really give a shit that my sister lived before me. Like I didn't, she was, she was, you know, her life started when I was born, as far as I was concerned, until I had kids. Yeah. Or even it never crossed my mind that though, like I understood music before, but it all seemed so old. Yes. Even 1978. Yeah. The old in 1996. Yeah. And it's all those weird, like, I've told the story recently about, you know, in 1998 or 1999, I'm working with the guys who, one of the guys who had worked on Thriller. And that was only 16 years old. That's newer. Right. At that point. I know. But yeah, and it, but it feels like yesterday in 2008 is like, well, of course, but in 1998, Thriller felt like forever ago, forever ago. Yeah. Is it? Was it actually forever? I mean, it has because of the abundance of music that people consume and art that people consume, is that span in a weird sort of way longer than it is these days? Or is it feels like it for us, but I don't know, like for kids. I'm not sure. Oh, man. I don't know. Okay. So, um, uh, your dad's record collection is awesome. And obviously the old country stuff and listening to, when we talked about Gershwin and Patsy Klein and the effects of how that really, you know, uh, you can hear the influences and how you write, even at that point, a family that's obviously in the arts, uh, what you've, you mentioned Gershwin all the time and obviously, I know the Brian Wilson love. Oh, Brian Wilson's, like, my, my dude. Yeah. So, how do you get involved in some of the, the great American song book? Because that is so. That's what I sang well. So I, like, an alto, I, like, from an early age, I mean, I always liked it, but like, I remember, like, I went to this, like, um, this, uh, summer camp that was like, uh, actually a lot of people went there. It's called French Woods. Like, they had Rock Band and they had musical theater and theater and dance and, like, circus, all this stuff. And it was so much fun. And I remember everyone always telling me, like, I should be singing these songs. So, like, you know, and then I remember hearing, like, um, but not for me, the Gershwin song. And being like, oh, this melody is so good. Like, and the way you would play with those chords was just pretty different from, like, what, what pop music was when, you know, uh, we were, you know, in high school, you know, um, even though there's a lot of pop music, or like, a lot of popular music, I guess, um, that I love from the '90s. That's such a sophisticated view to think, and I, I think I liked songs until I realized what I was doing for, you know, until I moved out here. I loved a lot of music, but I don't think I had this sophistication to say, I really liked this melody over these chords. Oh, I would, like, get driven crazy by the chord melody. Like, I, I remember, who's, who's, uh, uh, helping you navigate this weird love? Nobody. Just me. Yeah. Um. It's a weird space up there. I would just, like, I, I remember, like, a few things. I remember, like, like being like eight and, and, you know, when you, like, play Glockensheel in, like, the music class, and then we learned like a 12 bar blues, and I was like, Oh, I love how this sounds. And like, this is so cool. And I just, I was like, I, I never want this to stop. I never want this to end. I'm like, good thing it loops forever, if you wanted. Yeah. Um, and then I remember this is a really funny reference, um, but I loved oldies radio. Do you remember K-Earth 101? Did you grow up here? No, but I know K-Earth 101. Okay. I moved, I moved here in 98. Okay. So K-Earth 101 was the oldie station. K-Earth 101. Exactly. Yeah. I got it. And I was obsessed with K-Earth, but like, didn't want, like, once I was in middle school, I realized it wasn't cool to like, K-Earth. And I was like, it was like my big secret, like how much I love K-Earth. And there was a song that's like, Gary Lewis in the playboys, which was like actually Jerry Lewis's son. And it was all like, probably like, real building song writing. And there's a pre-chorus. And I loved this pre-chorus, like, and I, I just like, listen to it over and over again. It's really simple, but it's just catchy, you know? And I would just get, I loved, like, anything, I would just get, and I could listen to a song about, like, a thousand times, which I'm, like, even now with my kids, like, my daughter, I'll get in the car and then Spotify, I'll be like, like, you know, sometimes I'll put on the, like, you know, playlist on Spotify for the kids because they fight over music. And I'm like, Spotify's picking. So you guys don't fight. And then there'll be a song that's like, you listen to this, like, 50 times in the last week. And I'll be like, and my daughter's like, you listen to this song 50 times, why? But I still, like, I have, like, if I like a song, I won't want to hear it, like, a thousand times. What are, um, not to divert, but what are your five desert island albums? Albums, um, auditing the Orqual by the zombies, um, pet sounds, yeah, each voice, um, I would say, it's really hard to pick five. That's like, you can pick one more. Okay. Um, I, there's a list fear record from, um, um, it's called Exile and Guide. Yeah, it's incredible. Chicago. Love that record. It doesn't get old and it is still, I still listen to it from Chicago. So is that where she made that record? Well, she's a Chicago. Oh, she's an icon. Yeah. There's a certain, there's a, there are certain people that just fit in the, whatever, that's a story. Yeah. I mean, if you ask me this tomorrow, I might come up with different. Have you listened to all of those thousands of times when you say that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and some of these are ones that I don't, pet sounds, I, I, I, I actually, yeah, I actually still play all these records, um, uh, there's a Judy still record called Heart Food. Who? I don't know this. Oh, gosh. Listen. Okay. She's a very unique singer and such a unique songwriter and such a sad story. What's the story? She just was, she was the first, um, person signed to asylum and she was kinda, you know, outside the box, I guess, and, um, a little rebellious and just ended up, and she had like drug problems and, you know, it kind of, she only made like really two records, but they're great. And that one is so good, um, and I think is, yeah, it's, it's one I've listened to a thousand times. Um, I'm gonna say like something controversial and that is that my favorite Beatles record is Hard Day's Night. Oh, okay. Cause I think it's perfect. It's so perfect. It's funny. I had this, uh, a friend of mine, um, press makes him shout out, um, wrote, wrote this article about the white album and he called me the other day and he said, um, uh, he's like, you know, what do you think about the white album? I was like, well, I think what's weird about the white album is that there are a bunch, and this is the controversy here is like, there are a bunch of songs in it that aren't good. And this is hard to say because the Beatles are the greatest band of all time. Right. Yeah. There's nothing that beats the Beatles. And the white album is great. Yeah. I think that that's what happens when some, when you get, uh, when there's no, when there's no adult in the room is to say like, hey, we don't need all of them. Let's rain it in a little bit. Yeah. Let's add it. What people love about it is that there is no edits. You could see all the, the, you could hear a honey pie and songs like that. But it was just an interesting debate of like, of all the albums, you know, that's a lot of people's favorite. Right. I find it to be, um, uh, unfocused in a way that makes it great. But also it's like, yeah, I would rather listen to hard days night to me. It's such an album. Like it is a start to finish. Everything makes sense. Song to song. It's perfect. I don't dislike any song on that record. I like every single one of them. I'm like, yes, like this is on, yes, like I'm I'm so stoked the whole time. I'm listening to Hardee's night and I just and I also love the movie so much and the way that it plays as the soundtrack, it's just so good. When do you start playing piano? So I was I started teaching myself to play piano when I was about six and my parents told me I couldn't take lessons to eight. Why? My mom got worried that I wouldn't like stick with it unless I was like like old enough to be serious. But there was like no keeping me. It was almost like you need to like lock up this instrument and then every night and it's not and like I talk about this like I'm like you know I've been playing piano my entire life but like I'm not a great piano player like I'm piano is my instrument that I understand music the most on because it's linear and that's just how I learn music theory and and it's a songwriting tool for me and so I'll play on tour but it's not like you'd be like yeah I can't wait to hear her shred on piano like I'm not a great piano player but I love it and I love it as a songwriting tool for myself and many people play much much better than me but I was I was obsessed and growing up I would say like we'd be clearing the dishes and I'd be like you clear the dishes I'll be the entertainment yeah my sister would get so annoyed because my parents would let me they'd be like well you know she's entertained that is so messed up as it like this goes back to the thing of like knocking me a shit about your older siblings having to deal with the younger sibling being like okay my job here is this entertaining yeah wasn't but your sister's an entertainer too she is so she's doubly angry she was doubly angry yeah yeah she she was probably more of a rural follower than you know as older she's my older sister so like she's you know as older siblings yeah I think the person who plays piano well enough to know a theory and these are where the chords go makes a good songwriter and the one who knows how to shred is often somebody that you have to also rain in to be like this is great but you know I don't know where I don't where is this going yeah and it's hard as they say to like writing to tracks is like writing a screenplay to special effects right it feels like when you're a ultra arpeggiating kind of piano player that's moving you know modal modes and doing the whole thing that it can be really hard to follow right and it can be really hard to write a good song out of out of those so so you go into you're you're starting to play piano you're singing care at the 101 songs yeah I'm getting the picture here um what is one's the first time you just said to write a song I was like about 10 or 11 and I remember being like mom I got to write this song and it's like it was about a fear and it was about it was about a a fair a fair like a fun fair yeah I'm like it's called dark end of the day no um no I no wow that took it like a fun fair and it was like I'm having fun at the fair it was like it was basically a melody that exists for sure but I was really excited about it and I wrote it out in giant letters it on poster boards and my mom helped me like she's like super supportive like the most supportive mom and I had all the chords and I mean it was like you know three chords um but it was it was like oh wow the coolest thing about songwriting that I think is that you like what you can walk into a room and there's no song and then you walk out of a room and there's a song and you're like where did it come from I don't know yeah for however mathematical songwriting is or music theory is there's nothing more magical yeah then walking out of room with the song I always say like I don't know if I love I don't know if I love writing songs but I love having written a song yes so I don't mind going through the pain of yes I know this isn't right what is it yeah it can't be that there's gotta be a thing here I also like and never it's so funny because when I see your like studio setups they look so like cushy and like just I'm always sitting on the floor with like sheets of paper that have been like ripped out of an art book or something sprawling like you know like lyrics and then they're crossed out and there's like like chords written I'm like which wait wait what did I play you know it's always feels like total chaos that I have to like like that I'm swimming through to get to that and like I've written a song I write more on the floor in that room then like I set up and put my guitar there I it's how I played growing up yeah I have a whiteboard yeah I put the whiteboard on the on the ground yeah and I and I I write sitting on the floor all the time it's something about sitting on the floor like I mean I'll be at my piano but then I got this little keyboard so I could like this tiny little keyboard just so I could sit on the floor like just cuz it's do you write in the same way every time when you walk into a room yeah I mean I usually have like like I figured out that it's a lot easier like if I'm like okay I need to spend the next like three days writing that's like the amount of time I need like to write a few songs like I just need to leave it that much time it's like take I think that like take off and landing they're like I don't I can't be like oh I'm gonna spend those two hours like working on music like like maybe I could practice this song but I can't write a song like I can't get any meaningful work done in two hours like I wish I could but I need like a lot of time and I need and I love to have multiple days in a row so I normally like I like information gather so I'll be like if I hear a phrase I like or you know I have a like a song idea I'm like oh that would be a fun subject for a song or something like that or a melody and then I'll record you know like if I'm in the car I might like hear a melody in my head and I'll just like record it on memos or all like if I hear a you know if I think of a lyric or I hear someone say something interesting that feels like oh that sounds like that's like a good lyric I'll just like write it down and then I have a giant like just folder full of just ideas and then when I sit down to write I have a bunch of ideas do you identify as a songwriter or an actor songwriter way more I'm it's the thing I'm way more proud of I mean I like acting but it's so collaborative like you're I mean to make a film it's like 150 people and I I love doing it but a lot of times you're at the mercy of a lot of other people's work and you know you could work really hard on something it could not turn out how you want or you know even my performance might not even turn out how I want because it's really hard to control yeah somebody else that can edit you know yeah your performance to look a certain yeah you have totally different timing and you know and you never know what's going to make it or not you could be directed to do something that feels really like wrong to you and then you could be kind of pressured into doing that I mean there's a lot of stuff with acting even the white really enjoy it and it's I like having multiple creative outlets but songwriting is like this is like 100% me and they're like my babies like songs the songs are like my babies and and um and like making records with that it's really just super tight collaboration because it's just me and Matt and our engineer and then we'll bring in people to like you know come come and play stuff but like usually Matt does all the guitars I do like all the vocals and I stack a lot of vocals and um and it's very it's just very much us you know um did you know and we'll get to still some of the process but going through you know it looked like you had a pretty busy schedule for yeah you know a good 15 years of just non stop non stop yeah and then adding kids and then the whole thing yeah when you identify as a songwriter how did you how did you find time or the brains I didn't yeah I like stop writing music for a really long time and that's why when we like we made a lot of like records that were like Christmas records or things like that because I was just like I don't have time um and it wasn't until like actually this last year that I was like okay I miss writing music so much it's actually the thing I'm most proud of in my life and that I want to be focusing on those things that I'm I'm most like that I most closely aligned with like my identity and and that really and then I started thinking about how like how I need to set up my time to be able to do that because when I would when I was single and childless um I could just have a weekend free and it was never like you have to go to the school play or the dance concert or the taekwondo you know belt test or whatever um and I realized I'm like oh no I and because I don't write really I would actually love to write with other people sometimes like um not necessarily for she and him, but like, but because mostly I write by myself I have to make myself right so I have to say I'm not doing anything for three days except writing. Does your team appreciate that or did they lament that? I think they appreciate it. I don't I haven't like acting like the movie business is really weird right now so it's actually kind of a good time to be like doing more of this stuff because like movie and TV has been weird for a while and I'm like you know this is this actually fits into my life I just have to figure out like I and so I've been writing a ton and we've been recording which is really nice. Yeah that's amazing okay so you write a song about a fair yeah you do just be clear yeah just the weirdest like a carnival a carnival okay I wrote a song about a carnival um I saw you with another man at this carnival it's a fair a fair a fair fair double level maybe I see I this it's a great idea a trademark that's a that's a house song anyways and you can't trademark it's okay so you write keep going down this this process yeah so then in high school I would write music but I actually never played it well I mean I might play it for a friend or two but I didn't I didn't really I was so shy about playing anything for anyone so I I really like I was for so long building up a chest of songs you know because I would I was in bands but we don't it was always like bands covering other things like I had like a band in high school and then what kind of covers I mean they would still be oldies but like not maybe not old oldies like more like Joni Mitchell's kind of stuff another artist I love but and then then Cabaret at like doing like this old like American song book stuff while you're in high school in high school and and then like after high school because I went to college for one year and then dropped out where did you go northwestern oh nice yeah you're in Allison what was your I was in 1835 him and okay yeah I was a cherub there you were okay my brother in law did that he didn't end up going to Northwestern but he's he's older than us yeah he he was a theater chair a lot of people my sister was a church a lot of people went on to do great things after cherubs I'm the director the producer of the show I had off Broadway was was a cherub the woman who started second stage where I had another show yeah she was a cherub yeah there's a bunch of people that I know that are our cherubs and and you know I know producers of yeah it's like a real thing yeah because my brother in law is a like a right a comedy writer and actor and then he just wrote a show on Broadway oh grace and and and then like all his friends who were cherubs were were also very successful it's a weird thing because had I gotten into school for for theater maybe people would have I have the opposite journey maybe people would have taken me seriously as a composer for theater but I got a record deal in college and then by the time I I have to I had to have number one songs before people were like oh that thing you wrote that's actually like really good theater we should see what that does over there and then I started working in theater yeah you know it's a weird journey if you end up you know well I think the theme that's annoying is when we do have kids I have to there much they're not much younger because your kids are young too they're you know about to be five and two years but you see with kids they're so creative and there's no limits to their creativity I mean my kids are like crazy creative and in so many different ways and and they never limit themselves they're like making stop motion movies and singing making up songs and writing poems and making you know like like making clothes I mean everything and and then you get into the real world and people are like oh well you're a songwriter but you can't write songs for Broadway you go like why not none of this makes sense like we should all be as limited like we all should think in an unlimited way versus a limited way you know I I knew when going to like when you were saying how you had to like you purposefully hid the she-in-him lineup until people recognize the thing when when I first saw reviews of a show that I did in New York I knew they liked it if they said you know has written for Adina and Buble and Celine but I knew that they didn't like it when they would say like real for Nicki Minaj and Justin Bieber and I knew that what the rest of the review would say because they they had already decided I think before they saw it yeah whether it was of the standard that it needed to be or my my my biography was right whatever you call it resume was was worthy of of the stage right and it's just so crazy because it's like how do you how how can you be inventive in artistic mediums if you're not thinking outside of the box but I think everyone really wants to be snapped back to the box yeah NMP is our lead sponsor yet again what is the National Music Publishers Association what do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway well unlike artists who can be unsigned artists there is no such thing as an unsigned writer you can be a self-published a co-published or a publisher writer publishers only make money if songwriters make money so NMP goes and fights for you they go to Congress they go and support the community they fight DSPs to get you paid more that's what they do they fight for you and they fight for this podcast so thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA thank you for fighting for us too once the first time you go into a studio oh gosh so like did you do the recovery stuff was that all any of it recording no no we didn't record any event but I did like so actually I did have this weird realization it took me a while to find my voice in the studio like how I mean that's like a whole other thing but like you know how it is with microphones and this why it's I've become like a microphone kind of nerd like vocal chain like I just I have a unique voice that's very low I mean I I can sing high but like probably like my best parts of my voice are low and but I can you know it's like on stage I have a lot of power but in the studio if I use power it doesn't it doesn't translate like it doesn't if I use power in the studio normally is like not that great but if if I use my tone which is what I realized later was probably the best part of my voice that and that I find the mics that work for me and like the whole vocal chain and and set up that works for me that that that really is a key to getting what's good about my voice but I I had some rude awakenings when I first tried to like record I was like if people might be wrong it was just like oh God it's like if you don't your tone is so unique that that's like that's such a selling point that if you don't capture that right if you like sounds the spectrum and if and and because there's a lot of mics that are are kind of focused on the wrong part of the spectrum for my voice it's why most most pop singers are probably met so spranos I'm an alto you know I think you know it's just not you know so I had to really experiment but my first experiences well you know okay it's funny because I'm dream this wasn't my first experience in the studio but like like I had done some demos and things like that and that didn't turn out very well and then I remember for Elf they knew I was a singer and which is part of why they cast me and then I went into recorded with Leon Redbone and everything sounded perfect like they got how to record me and I was like oh wow and then because it's their Leon was like a you know jazz like old world singers so it was like they got how to record a voice like mine but but yeah I mean I think that's interesting your first time's going to the studio we're just you don't realize how significant your chain is yeah until you listen back and you do what till you find it right and you realize all that time what is your what is the ideal mic chain for you I have it all written down but so I actually so it depends on are we recording on tape or are we recording on let's start with because we yeah - Normally record on tape. - Yeah, good. - So, and that's a whole other thing. Because on tape, there's warmth already. So you don't need, and that was part of the thing was like Matt always records on tape. So she and him right out the gate, we were like, okay, we didn't, we kind of, you know what, the first record, I don't even remember what we were recording on. But it was like sounding pretty good, but we started dialing it in after that. Like really trying, we do, you know, mic shootouts always. It's actually incredible, I love doing mic shootouts. But so I went down this rabbit hole, we were making this record called Classics and it was all Classics songs. And I was like, we were recording on tape. So it was okay to use a mic with a little bit about like higher ends because tape has the warmth. So, and then, but then I wanted an insurance mic. So I always have an insurance mic now. So in case, so that record, I used Karen Carpenter's vocal chain and I have to, I'm gonna get, I'll get back to you on the, maybe we can look up the mic pre and the compressor. I can't remember now offhand, but it's a U87 in Omni. And then my backup mic is an RCA 77. - Cool. - Because it sounds actually not great by itself, but we mix in just a little bit sometimes if the warmth isn't fully there. It's like all warmth, it's very dark. But so I wouldn't ever want to use just that mic, but that is great. And then, so if I'm recording on digital, I use, well, I actually now use this mic almost exclusively, but depends on what we're doing. I recorded with Brian Wilson and we used an ELM351 from Oceanway and then after that session, he gifted me that mic from Oceanway. - What? - And so now I basically bring it to every session. - Even if you don't use it, just bring it everywhere, just as a good luck charm. - Yeah, and it was funny because I was in this movie Trolls and they were like, well, we're recording everybody on the same mic and I was like, I'm sorry, you're not recording me. It was everybody who was on a U67 and I was like, that is a bad mic for me. So I have to bring my mic. And then everybody was like, oh, so, I'm like, I'm not like trying to flex. It's just that I need specific, like they will say like CV next needed a particular mic because she has a unique voice. And you can't just record me with like any old mic. It won't work. I will sound literally bad. So that's why it's super important, like all that stuff and having knowledge of like what sounds good. But also, you know how good engineers always go, oh, no, no, it just sounds good. I just point the mic at you and it sounded good. I'm like, no, you're a good engineer because if you make, it sound good. You're good. - You're doing a good job and that could be doing nothing. - You know, like that's just like any other art form that it might be like the answer might be doing less. - Yes. - And not by adding more stuff to the chain. I mean, you know, that's a different kind of engineer to know that. - But we never process anything or use any kind of pitch correct, anything, ever. So like that kind of processing, like I know nothing about. We live completely in the past as far as recording goes. - Yeah, and even compositionally, well, you know, there's a clear timelessness to it. Like you're not trying to play that game. - No, I don't even know what the game is. Like, well, for somebody who was on network television as much as we were and we're doing studio films all the time to be so able to work outside of the box in the music space, weren't people pressuring you, hey, you should try to get in the single game. - Well, I think that was like my first few experiences. Like I said, I made some demos. I did make some demos like with some songs I had done with like some random producers and like all talented people but like it just didn't work until I met Matt. You know, like nobody got how to like, how to make it all work. You know, it's like, because I also didn't fit into the pop mold and I think songs to me like must have meaning and I don't, I don't, like sometimes I think like especially when I was first starting out, the way pop was a lot of it, you know, there wasn't always like as much personal meaning and the songs that were out there, not that there weren't like examples of that, but like my song didn't fit in the pop mold. So if I tried to like right with somebody or like whatever, trying to like fit, I just don't fit into, I don't fit into mainstream and yes, I did do a lot of like network TV and studio movies but what's funny is I still never felt like I fit into those molds either like I felt like it was a miracle that I was even on any like network TV or in big studio movies because I started out doing indie films and you know, I always saw music as my thing that I could be pure self-expression and I never needed to sell out, I never needed to, like we never even like, we've never even like played, you know, mixes of songs for labels to have them weigh in on anything. But we always just would turn in a record fully finished. - So that's the best way to do it. And you know, to be fair, what makes those, the network television and the studio films work is what's so exciting about the things that you ended up in is that they were not existing IP, that they became big, that you didn't go in, it wasn't, and there's no offense to Marvel movies but you didn't join them, you weren't a Marvel universe. - It wasn't that, you know. - No, if I fit in any of those like molds, like I need to break molds, I can't. - Iron woman, you're like, why am I here? I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I don't know. - I don't know how to be a Iron woman. - You work with Brian Wilson, you kind of just like, gives you a microphone and I saw the interview that you did with him, you gave him at the Hollywood ball. - Yeah, it's, oh my God. - Which is amazing. - Three, how many, I was like, how many, three voices sounds like Angel's Quires, that's like my favorite quote from that, I got to note it. - I mean, it's like, you know, there's, we were talking about Paul McCartney yesterday, like there's, there aren't, you know, there's Brian Wilson's on, you know, Mount Rushmore. - Yeah. - You know, what's it like working with Brian Wilson? - Like the most creative guy you'll ever meet and like, so zeroed in, you know, on everything. It's, it's fascinating how unique of a person he was and what a joy it was to be around that. You know, it's funny because when we were doing that song with him, I, I had like, for years, I don't wanna say like, stalk, stalks are wrong word. Like, but I would like, go to every Brian Wilson. Like, if I was in a place where Brian Wilson was playing, I would go to every show, right? Like, I was very into it, right? And somehow, you know, I became friends with like, people in his, like, in his band and on his team and stuff like that and ended up meeting him and like, and his wife and his kids and stuff like in London, when I went to see him play. And so I felt like I had like really just pursued being around the world of Brian Wilson just 'cause I just, I worship him and love him so much. But working with him was really interesting 'cause we had, like, I think we went and did this song and his, his co-writer was like, you know, we were like, oh, we, we were talking about like tape versus like recording on Pro Tools and they were like, and he was like, oh, Brian loves Pro Tools (laughs) which is like yours think of people like, you know, this like highbrow thing of like loving tape. And I were like, oh, and, 'cause it's fast. And it's easy and he like, oh, he just wants as many tracks as possible, as fast as possible. And, you know, and it was funny because I sang the song and I go, can I stack some vocals? Which was like a really bold thing to say to Brian Wilson. But he let me do it. And, but if ever anything wasn't to his liking, he would just stop it immediately in the middle and instead of like, you go, stop it, you're out of time or whatever. (laughs) And I'd be like, oh, okay, you know what would be like, and everyone who recorded on that, like who did duets with him, he would just be like, stop. Like it would just be like, okay, you know, he was very exacting about how everything should be, but it was, it was an amazing experience and, and, and I just like, he just like, he would be like, he'd be like, I want hamburgers, you know, like just, he was like the most lovable, amazing person. I just loved being around him. There's probably a diagnosis for that in this, in this era. We love people that aren't just normal, like you're everyday person, that, you know, it's like I just love, like I just, I, I loved being around him, such an incredible, um, blessing. Recording to tape is, you have to be well rehearsed and, again, in this era, what's different in songwriting is that people write the day they record, you know, because if you're gonna be in a studio, they have the, you know, the tape is there, and that obviously existed before, but it's traditionally that would be really expensive to, yeah, so you write at home and you have to practice it, and you have to listen back, and you have to make mistakes, and then go back, and then you have to practice it, and then you learn, you live in the song, like you almost tour it, even if it's for nobody, you know, and then when you get to the studio, you're well rehearsed, well rehearsed, you know, absolutely. So it's like, it's, uh, I don't know, there's something about the idea of, like, of choosing to do that path, is a patient path, even to begin with, in this era. Well, the cool thing about that too, is that, like, we have, like, songs, like, even, like, we'll end up with, there'll be songs that, like, I'll send to Matt, and they, you know, if I'm writing a whole lot, I'll send to Matt, like, a demo, and sometimes my demos are more involved, and sometimes I'll just be like, ah, I don't feel like making a big thing of this. And a lot of times I like to stack a lot of vocals, or, like, you know, do us, so, like, the whole reason, there was, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I thought I saw your face today, the whole reason why there's a whistle solo is, 'cause I wanted a solo on my demo, and I couldn't play an instrument well enough to solo. So I whistled it, and then I was like, are you going to play guitar, and he's like, no, I like the whistle, we're going to do a whistle. You know, so what I like is that Matt sits with the songs for a long time. Yeah. And sometimes we'll do a kind of similar tempo and feel to how I make the demos. But like, there was a song on, like, volume three, um, that was like, I wrote as like a super slow ballad on piano, and I walked in, and I walked in the studio the day we're going to record it, and Matt's just playing it really fast on guitar, like, with this cool strumming pattern, and, and he's like, I think we should do it, you know, this way. And it was like, oh, what a great idea. It made the song so much better. Which song was that? So it's the one that's like, I can't help it. I can't win, um, uh, now, I know it's time, I don't remember my own song, I also don't ever remember how to play them. Like, when we, I go back on tour, uh, I'll be like, uh, I don't remember how, it's like I literally shut everything out of my brain until I'm touring again. And I'm like, oh, my God, I have to relearn all these songs. I wrote 20 years ago, uh, somebody who, uh, are you good? Can you recall dialogue from anything you ever did or it's got to fall in the same category? For me, uh, it's, it's, it's melody. I remember forever music, hooks, music, everything is musical, but that actually never wanted your love. That's it. And I can hear the original demo, which like really slow, um, uh, so yeah, so my song never wanted your love, which I would never forget the name of, um, no, uh, lyrics, don't always, like, I don't always remember words as well, like music, I remember much better than words. And it's funny for somebody who acts to do that. You know, well, I, I memorize, um, dialogue really fast, but then it'll go out of my head, like, as soon as I've, like, I'm done with the day, um, but lyric writing is much harder for me than melody. Melody's so like, uh, easy. Like I love it. And then the, the thing that makes me like bang my head against the wall or lyrics because I just feel like it is really walking this tightrope of like not saying too much, but not saying too little, hitting like the thing that makes people go, oh, yes, I know that feeling or I feel that too, or I know that person or whatever, like that is the hardest thing to do. This is a bad question to ask somebody who struggles with remembering lyrics, but considering how hard it is, what's a lyric you wrote that took a long time? Yeah. That you now are so proud of. Oh, that took a long time. You know, it can be short. Okay. I'm going to just tell you that there's a song called thieves that was like the first song. Is it the opposite answer? But one that, um, I wrote that song like really fast, like almost to the point like where I was like, did I channel this? Like I walked into a room, which was like my, um, in my parents house. I don't know why I was at my parents house, but I was. And I just had a guitar, maybe was my dad's guitar and I, um, wrote that song in like 30 minutes and the whole thing start to finish all the lyrics, everything. And I walked out and I was like, oh, that was like a ghost. Tell me right now. I don't know what that was, but, um, but I, I really like when I listen that song, I'm like, I am super proud of this. I think that's like my favorite song I've, I've written, um, but you know, then there are other ones, um, like actually volume three is full of songs where I'm like, I'm super proud of that song, like, um, but, um, like, um, don't look back. It was a song that I, I, it felt crafted. Like I was like, I was working on it for like a long time where I was like, um, I, uh, I have this like idea and, you know, and I would like work on bits and pieces and it was kind of, it didn't feel cobbled together, but to get it to the point where it was, you know, that song took longer, you know, but it really, it, every song is its own baby and has its own, you know, process of being born. Uh, so let's go back. So night you've, you've done some demos, I know we're going all over the, we've done some demos that are, um, you know, not right, meh, meh, and you're starting to act in, in, in some indies and one that, um, did you question your career path at this point? Uh-huh. Really? So I was actually traveling to, so I would go like for long periods of time away, like, and back then, do you remember the inbox that you like have to, to record a demo or like do any multitrack recording you needed this inbox thing? And I would bring a whole suitcase full of musical, folding musical instruments, like a tiny, like a keyboard that folded and a guitar that folded and an inbox, I would have an entire suitcase full of instruments and would be writing songs on my off time. And I, I will say it was actually really what's funny about doing movies as a female is that you tend to, when you're like 22, they're like, and here's your love interest and they're like 40 or whatever, and they're all really nice people, but a lot of times I'm like, well, they're not like hanging out in the same places as I am. They're like usually like have a family and like kids and like, you know, it's a whole other thing. And, and to like everyone you're working with, a lot of times I'd be on a film for like a long time. It might be like four months somewhere and I'd be so lonely because there would be like nobody my age, like all my friends weren't being like, I had like so many musician friends and so many like very creative friends at home and stuff and most of, you know, the people I'd be working with, I just, it wasn't like I couldn't hang out with them or they weren't lovely, but I just didn't feel like I wasn't the same stage of life as them. And I just like, and a lot of times would be the only girl, you know, and just feeling really isolated. So like a lot, like, especially when I first two records were like written in very lonely situations where I was like by myself, like in an apartment somewhere and like just like writing song after song and just like I'm using myself by making these songs and like not knowing where they were going or what I was doing with them, but just like having, being like, this is what I do with my spare time. Was this while you're shooting, you know, this is, you know, what era are we in when you look back at this time and when are we? This is like 2003, 4, 5, like around there. And I had a lot of musician friends and what was nice was they were all super supportive of me as a songwriter. Most of them, like I would send demos and they'd be like, this is awesome. Like, you know, it was really nice because at least I had like friends that were, you know, that believed in me. That believed in me. Yeah. But, you know, before that era, working on all my work, I was like, well, you know, it was famous oh yeah you know it's like yeah which is now also been a musical that's gone and went and done and had its whole life and whatnot you know to work on a movie there that's so music-based yeah and of the era yeah that you grew up listening to music did it connect you to any of those musicians differently by being in that era so Cameron like I don't know if you read his book it's incredible I haven't read the book but I'm super familiar yeah listen to his book because it's it's so worth just like if you're on a road trip or whatever because and it's so fun to hear him read it is there's so so much to be taken away from that like that's just wonderful but Cameron was such a positive influence I don't think he even knew back then like that I played music or saying or anything but he would make he would make mixed CDs for everything like like you it was like I signed on that movie I got cast in that movie and the first thing was I got like a double disc set of like like and then it was very important there's actually a really funny thing that happened which was that I I got cast in that movie and I quit I kind of quit college took to because I got cast in this movie on a whim partially because I thought it was too hard to store my stuff in skoki Illinois at the public storage because I'm like not like like graded adulting but and so I just shipped all my stuff home with these like travelers checks and and anyway my friend from college made me a mixed tape and the first song in the mix tape was America by Simon and Garfunkel not knowing anything about what I was doing and then like on Cameron's mix tape was America by Simon and Garfunkel and that is the song that they play as my character is leaving home it's like the most significant song like to that character and I always saw songs like you know I always saw songs as a part of a soundtrack to my life you know and and I really think like getting to Cameron and the way that he thinks and his his love and appreciation for music is like unparalleled like I don't know anyone who appreciates music like so very very much like who isn't a musician you know I mean he has just such a knowledge and appreciation and and so yeah being around him was very positive influence on me yeah for sure first of all how is it being in a in a movie where you have the skill set to write and your round you know legends and not tell them like in out that's the least L.A. thing you could do I'm I am so not L.A. aren't you supposed to be like the hey check out I'm like that I'm like allergic to selling myself like it's it's my blessing and my curse like I would I I have to maybe my dad's from a Quaker family and Quakers are all about like never bragging and never showing off and so when like I'm allergic to showing off I guess but it's weird to be like a performer and be like I'm allergic to showing off so it's like there's and you know what I like about Matt to and word is that he also kind of has this element but it's really fun because you'll have this thing where I love Matt when I first met him would want to play in the dark like we would play shows and you'd be like turn off the lights like there'd be like no spotlight on the city he's like so we can be in the spotlight but I don't want to be I just want to play in the dark and he's a shredder like he's an amazing performer legend and then finally after a while when when we were touring like he finally started to just step up and search shredding like like like you know leg up on the you know like the monitor and everything and and I was like yes he's like it's like because the showing off is coming from a genuine place and then it's it's allowed but yeah I'm not I I'm not really unless it comes up but that's why people I know well don't even know that I write music how did people not know that now I don't know but you know you should have a name tag this is what I do this is how I identify it will also what's funny I remember during the first record I was kind of frustrated like when we first started touring because we would be doing interviews like with magazines and stuff and no matter what I did no one would think I wrote any of it they just think I was the singer and then that would be like no Zoe writes all these songs and they'd be like oh so you write the lyrics and he'd be like no no no Zoe writes the song and they'd look at me like like it still wasn't registering even though we told them and I remember telling my friend Becky Stark who's a great singer songwriter like Lavender Diamond I don't know if you know them but she's like super talented and she was opening up for us and she was like I was like oh man it's it's because I was an actor first that's why and she's like no it's because you're a female like she's like nobody nobody believes I write music either and I was like that's really interesting because obviously I know there's lots of you know female song writers that are you know everybody acknowledges you know but I do think there is like an uphill battle to being a singer and being out front and people being like well they don't read even a lot of pop stars like we'll be talking I'll be like oh I like this person or whatever and people be like well they don't write their own music and I'm like no I I think they do like they really do and I I have to kind of go to bat for people a lot in that way just knowing how you know much it means to people to be like at least acknowledged for the contribution it's particularly misogynistic and it's not you know like you said you know that Ariana is a great writer and at its her vocals and does you know like go go down the the list is Sabrina is like an incredible writer great lyricist great like a lot of these people are and the strange thing is that we were talking about Muttling the Shenai twin is one of the greatest country writers in history yeah full stop yeah it was not there like she's a great songwriter and the assumption is that she was that Muttling did all of the writing because it's just this misogyny and the strange thing is nobody discredits Whitney for not writing they don't discredit Bonnie Ray for not writing right you know I can't make you love me they don't discredit these people it's okay it's okay that they didn't and for some reason there's this assumption though that female singers don't write and how many male pop stars do we know don't write yeah doesn't mean they don't get credit right but I was I was amazed that there be like songs written by like eight people because I was like like it's just never been my process that's but I'm I go to bat I go I go to bat for the eight that for somebody who writes a lot a hundred percent songs and 50 50s and I'm proud of that there are songs that I have that have other writers that have five song writers on it even if I have 45% of the publishing yeah because the contribution may be something that that we now give credit for often in the pop game even if it's and some of its strategy some of it's like you know I'll trade you for this this element or that element but I do think that there are sessions I had a session the other day there were still five people in a room yeah so you're starting at 20% but it was a really fun day but you know that the best case scenario with this song is that it comes out and I get 20% right it's a business thing but it's not you have a good day but you're not trying to be also I'm you know nobody in that room is the artist yeah I'm not knocking it at all I just I'm like wow like I I it again like a lot of the way things are done are like oh my God when I discover like how things are like done often or usually or many times and in in kind of like the mainstream world I'm like like it's so cool to me I just have never done it that way so I don't you know I'm like I'm just kind of like fascinated by the the kind of game of writing music would you write for other people I would love to I would love to it's that's a that's an achievable goal I would look I it would be so fun like I happen to know somebody who has a studio oh my God yes so you know what's funny is it was always my goal to have like like with she and him I love writing songs for she and him but like I wasn't always like writing for my own voice like so thieves I wrote like I was like this is like a Roy Orbison song I was like I want to write like a right super classic yeah and and the way it goes it crescendos like the entire song is crescendoing like to the end and where it's like there's a big note and I'm like if Roy Orbison were alive I would want him to cover this and then you know, there's there's a song called "Changes Heart" on the first record and I was like, this I want, I love Linda Ronset's voice. I'm like, this is like a Linda Ronset song. And like, so many songs I've written, I was made for you, which is like very kind of like simple, but I was like, listening to a lot of like Ronettes and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, this is like a Ronette song or a chiffon song. And I'm like, I always was writing for other artists. They just like, weren't, you know, around to record the songs or aren't recording anymore. But I kind of like, I would admit that like a lot of the songs, I'm like, these aren't all optimized for my voice. I just sing them. And I'm like, they're authentic and I'm proud of them. But I'm not like, oh, this is the song I crush the most. I'd be like, if you want to know a song I crush the most, it's probably not one of my own songs, like the one that I, where you're like, sing the song that's going to just like bring the house down where you're like, belt the hell out of it. It's not of my songs. It's going to be something else. Is that because you, you don't look at your own work in that way? I look at it for pure songwriting. Like, I love this melody. I love these hooks. What's the song that brings the house down? Well, we do, like, I put a spell on you. And like, that's always like a lot of times what I'm saying. And you've got like a ton of these. Yeah, like, these ones are like, like, big kind of like showstoppers. My own songs. Yeah, there's some that are more than others where I like wail on it. But you know, there are a lot that are very like intimate. And like, but it's more just about like loving the melody and like, and I'm like, there's some other people that would like crush this more than I would. And that's why I would love, you know, to write more with like other people or for other people. When you cover, baby, it's cold outside and out. You know, it's every Christmas, do you end up seeing yourself? Yeah. Do you watch? Do you watch? Do you want to watch watch Elf? They saw it once or twice. And they liked it. Yeah. But my, it's really funny. My daughter, like, loves seeing things that I've done and listening to stuff. And my son gets weird about it. Like, it's like, that's mommy, you know? Yeah. Does that, is that what inspired the run of Christmas songs later was because of that involvement? Or is it just because those are the best songs ever written? Just freaking love Christmas music. So good. So in my, when I was a kid, I got the Phil Spectre Christmas record, which I was obsessed with beyond. Like, I, I can't, I would listen to it all year round. Like, I got that and I got the Beach Boys Christmas record in my stocking. And I was like, I'm obsessed. Like, I loved how they, like, arranged all these songs. And I was just like the Phil Spectre one. I just, and like, and I love all the originals too on the, on the Beach Boys. And those, those, like, vocal arrangements are like, beyond. And so I, I just love Christmas music. And so, and then Matt loves Christmas music too. And we recorded that in six days, that first one. We got in the pier to reader our engineer and Matt and I just got in the studio and just, like, put up some Christmas lights and just, like, straight to, like, Christmas lights in July. And some of it would be just like, Matt would be like, do you know this one? And he'd start playing one and be like, sort of. And then we just record it. So fun. I mean, what a, what a cool place to be, to be able to do. You know, I, I think if I had a few Christmas songs, I, I know I've had a few Christmas songs that have come out just saying that like, you know, they were not, they're not ones that get played every year. But just that world is really interesting because you, you hear these albums come out and for a consumer when they hear the Christmas album come out, it was recorded December 10th and it came out, you know, it was record, but you're recording this album in April. Yeah. You know, for it to come out then, so to put Christmas lights on to live in this world. Also as a Jewish kid, like, no, there's nothing better than writing Christmas songs. Like, all I want to do is write Christmas songs. The best Christmas songs have been written by Jewish songwriters. I mean, white Christmas. Like, I mean, the most recorded song like ever, I think. Yeah, it's, there's, there's an incredible list of them. And yes, they were, we love Christmas. I think it's, you know, all of our songs are in minor keys and it's just like, it's, you know, with Hanukkah songs, they just, they don't do the same thing. When you work on, on 500 days of summer also, like, that's like such a, the music in that is so identifiable. Yeah. When you're looking at working as an actor, how much does music have to do with the roles you choose? I, like, often make playlists like for characters. Like, it's important for like, you know, getting into the spirit of, you know, the film. But I would say they're, they're fairly separate, but, you know, music is placed such a huge role in my life that they're, like, it's impossible for a not to be. Also, it's, it's fun because again, like, we talk about our kids, like, having influence, but it's like, my son loves film scores. And, and that's been fun to kind of like, he would just like want to listen, like, he'd love a movie. And then just like, oh, you have to listen to score, like, for days. And, and so that's, you know, fun to kind of, you know, get into those things. He loves like Godzilla, and the Godzilla scores, which are really great. They're so good. Yeah. Even the, like, weird off-brand Godzilla movies, like, from the 60s and these really cool scores. So, yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it's fun. I mean, it's, it's important, like, in, in every aspect of my life. But, did you ever feel like the roles that people identify you with as an actor affected, you know, the way you created, did it ever affect, did that affect, did you feel like you had a, I don't know, that's, I guess, that's a full question. No, but I, I think, I think what I could answer it there is like, I think, there's something very about being an actor is that when you play characters is the good and the bad is that it's, it's, you know, people see a very small slice of that character. And, and it can, it can feel very limiting to you. I mean, you know that, like, they've seen this much, you know, and then you have so much more. And, and that frustration can be very, um, inspiring. I, I think, like, as a songwriter, like, I don't know how you feel, but, like, um, that, um, I'm just, probably, I'm mostly motivated by like, like, things that I can't figure out or frustrating things, or things like that. Like, I, I find really motivating as a songwriter versus like, something that's just good and happy is harder to write about for me than like something that can't figure out, or that's like, oh, that's driving me crazy, you know, it's a little bit more like, oh, there's something there. I think it's interesting when you're talking about, you know, writing for Royal Orbison, or, you know, writing for the Ronets. And, and that being inspiring because the job of a songwriter that I like most is that I can today be female, different race. Yeah. Different, you know, uh, whatever, whatever I want, I can be, I can be this thing. Yeah. Whereas my friends that are actors, and my men, you're going to audition and not look for these roles. Right. And then you're, um, but you're not creating the roles. Right. And you then have to just be this, this person versus like, I get to choose the part I play right now. Right. It's like improvising or, or writing your own material. Totally. You know, I, I, I, I, I think it is a form of, of playing a role, writing a song. Um, and, um, actually, I, I, I, I think of this a lot that like, if I'm having a hard time with, with, lyrically, with a song, that when you can't quite crack that like lyrical code, that you go, you think about flipping it on its head. Like, well, what if I'm a different character in this? Yeah. I think that's, and that, that was actually that song I was talking about. Change has heard that I was having a really hard time writing about this particular thing I wanted to write about, which is this person who's very upset that they made a mistake. But I was not writing it in first person. It was about, you know, it was, it was like, in third person or in second person. And I'm writing it's like, not making any sense. And then, or it's making sense, but it's not good. It's bad. And then I started thinking, Oh, what if I am her? What if I am her? And I made this mistake, and I'm talking to this person, and I'm trying to explain to them, I made this mistake. And, And it's like a, it's like a, a, a quote, you know, and I go, okay. Now I get it. And it's like sometimes it's that little, little character shift that really cracks the code for you. - Yeah, great tool for writers who don't know what to do to write today, whatever that is. I'll tell my own writers, I'll be like, hey, go through Spotify, go through your favorite songs. - Yeah. - And then take the opposite perspective. - Exactly. - It's like, I know like, you know, the braille building writers in and, you know, the first Neil Sedacca song is Hey Carol. - Yes. - And then Carol came out with Hey Neil. And that's before Carol did like the artist thing, but it was her first singles, Hey Neil. And that idea of, or Smoky doing my girl and my guy. Like, he wrote both of those. And it's like, that's not by accident. That's like, I don't know to write today. I'm gonna take my hit and I'm gonna just flip it. Yeah. No, and one of the things I do if I'm writing and I'm having like a really hard time and I'm like, I'm not thinking of anything. I have a million real books, like, you know, the jazz, hey, books basically. I just take those out and I'll open page one. I'll play through every song I know. And then until I'm like kidding, I'm like, until I have like enough like chords and lyrics and things in my head, I'll sing 'em all. And then I'll have it all in my brain. It'll be like spinning around. And then I'll just like have a little more food for thought in terms of like writing music. I think all those exercises really can be valuable when you're having a difficult time. For somebody who writes, you know, who writes as much as you do and who's acted as much as you have, why aren't you spending the time writing scripts instead of songs? It's like, it's not that I wouldn't do that, but it's like, I don't know if it's, I, and I'm not saying I won't ever do that, but songs are like my medium, you know? Like that's my medium, like that gets me excited. Reading scripts is the most difficult part of my job as an actor because it's long form, you know? It's a longer, and I can, I'm, I love like, I am kind of working on a film to direct. Like I'm all that part and editing all that part, that all I'm like, I love that stuff, but writing screenplays is quite, it's just the process of it is a bit long form for me. And because it doesn't involve melodies, I'm like, yeah. I would love to write like music. I just envision you reading every script being like singing the stage direction and anything to keep you getting through the 90 pages of. It's hard for me. Like it, well, partially because I really like, I'm just a slow reader. So it's I really kind of, and I thoroughly read, but it takes longer than some people. Like it takes, you know, two hours to read a script. I'm like, it could take me like five hours because I'll get like into every, like very granular about all that. Yeah, I'm dyslexic. So I read like, I read like a six, six greater, but I read all the time. I really enjoy the information intake, but it just, everything is just like, it's gonna take me longer. And so going through some of that stuff is just like distraction or whatever it is. Yeah, I have ADHD. So I have, you know, not the same, but some similar things that like, we're all read a whole page. And I'll be like, I have no idea what I just read. I have to go back and read it again. And I could do it again. I could be like, I zoned out wallows reading it. Wallows reading, well, I zoned out wallery reading. They zoned out, it's why I listened to audio books a lot. 'Cause it, just listening to it, just easier for me. I listen at 1.8 speed, which makes my wife, whenever it's on, she's, what are you doing? This is like a panic attack. If you aren't used to listening to things very fast. I do that too, actually. I usually do 1.5, 'cause it's a little less sharp. I try to go just far enough that I can understand the material. But anything that's like, you know, I've gone too far where it's like nauseating, but I've gotten through very long books. I also have talked to people who listen to this podcast on high speed who are confused by the fact that I constantly sound sort of stoned. So they're like, where's the speed? 'Cause they're used to listening at 1.5, and it's like, that's just not how I actually communicate. So, you know, you do classic songs. You like Gershwin. You like the American song, right? And you act, why aren't you doing more theater? I would love to do theater. I just, like, the thing about Broadway, it's like, the whole has to be like scheduled in a certain way. And again, it's like, I think what I do best is like getting to curate my own, like maybe if I wrote a show, like if I wrote music for a show, I would wanna do that, or if it was just like perfect for me. But, and I would. I almost, I almost did "Cole Minor's Daughter" on Broadway, but we were working on that. That would have been cool. Got to meet Loretta Lynn, and she was incredible. But yeah, I mean, it shows a week is a lot too. Like, and if I'm touring, I can pick how many shows a week I do. I can like pick our schedule. Like I can pick our set. If I'm having like a, like a vocal day where I'm a little scratchy or something, I could like cut songs from the set, or like lower the keys, like, you know. But you know what's cool about shows is that they tour to you. - They know you're a theater guy, they tour to you. - True. - So like some of that, - Yeah. - Some of the losing the voice is the fact that after that show, you are now gonna either hop on a bus or a plane, and you're gonna head to the next place where you have a show. - Yeah. - Versus I'm gonna go home and go to sleep in my bed. - Yeah. - And I'm gonna wake up, I'm not gonna talk to any, but it's, you know, some days the Tony's. - Yeah. - My brother-in-law's nominated, so. - Oh, great for which? - The Lost Boys. - Oh yeah, that's right, you did it. - Oh really, did it with the refuse. - Yeah, really fun show. - Gabriel Mann. - It's so cool, it's such a great show. - Yeah, Josh Henry's the lead in the wrong man. - Oh cool. - He's from Ragtime Hill, probably, hopefully he'll win, and also Nicholas, Christopher, shout out to him. He's in our last reading of Inside Voices, which is one of the ones that we're doing. So, I'm kind of rooting for a couple of these guys. - Yeah. - And Brian used for, like, whatever, there's a bunch of those things. - It's so cool. - But that world is like, is really interesting to me because those guys, they, you know, it is a different thought. You have to go home, you have to be quiet. And you're with your kids. - Yeah. - Josh is like, excellent dad. - Yeah. - And he's got two, like, young, three young kids. Like, you're gonna have to, you know. - Well, I always say, you know, for touring. - Shelf the next night. - Yeah, my friends who were giving advice, like, before I ever started touring, we're like, don't talk after the show. - Be here. - And I don't smoke, I don't drink. Like, I mean, I might have a glass of wine here and there, but I'm very, I don't, like, I'm clean living. So I just go back to the bus and just, or hotel, and I just go right to sleep after the show. And then, yeah, like, and I don't eat, like, I'm really careful. 'Cause you were like, you know, you're famous, you know. Like, you were in through your entire '20s. - Mm-hmm. - 20s in a, our 20s in LA is, is entourage. The TV show was out. And it was like, that is what, that is around, a lot of the movies that you're in, a lot of the people you're surrounded by, you know, hashtag me twos all over the place, drugs and alcohol. Like, you know, but not me. - Hollywood, a ton of stuff. How did you avoid it all? - I was like, never into that stuff. Like, I just, you know what's funny? Do you remember there was like that nightclub called Teddy's where they had like, a very fun night where there were like, it was like, old school music that I liked? I would go there, drink water and dance for two hours and then drive home. Like, I love to dance. I'm like, I love listening to music. I love to go to shows, but I would like, I'd be like, well, I'm driving, so I'm not gonna drink. Like, here also, I do, I do feel like kind of great when there was like no ubers and you're like, well, I'm not drinking, I have to drive. So I would like, I just really, I never like felt like I needed anything. Like, and I was, I'd never like like, I, yeah, I don't know. - I feel like you were probably at the Dresden a lot. - I did, I have, I have been there. I, so back when I had the Cabaret Act, we were all along, was that Hill, Hill Hurst? - Yeah. - We were, we played a- - Where the Derby was and a- - We played, yeah, we played there. We played every place you could play on Hill Hurst. It was like, and we had a residency at the sunset tower, like back in the day. - What was that? - It was like, probably 2003. - Did you ever have a record deal as a solo artist? Before- - No. - She and her? No, like I said, I made demos with a few different people and they - Never like work. - But did you try to have it even with those demos? - I didn't try. I never was like, yeah, let me, I remember like my acting manager when I was new somebody, who knew somebody, I was like, I went in with like a producer, you know? And they're like, let's do a thing. And I was like, nothing sounded like how I wanted it to. - You're like, oh, okay. - It was, you know, they were talented. And then I did, - Hey, Miss Behaviour. - This is like totally like, I don't know if this is the remix I'm aiming for right now. - Yeah, I was like, I don't think so. Yeah, and then, and then I did like, I did do a couple songs like with a big producer, I won't say it was, 'cause I don't wanna like, but it didn't sound good, it wasn't right. It wasn't, they're super talented, but it wasn't a good fit for me. - Well, it's interesting, you know, Matt is like kind of a, he's a legend. - He's a legend. - And he was like, I don't think I've ever met him, but, you know, he's, M Ward is like a real artist. - Oh yeah. - Like solo artist, producer, you know, that's like, that is a big deal. - I'm so lucky. He's like been my mentor and my like champion and like my friend and pan me for over, I mean, we met 20 years ago and we started recording the first record at the end of 2006. So, 2020 years, and we've never had a fight, never, ever had a fight. - I mean, that's good business, too. It's like, it means that everyone's on the up and up and, you know, you guys also don't, you know, it doesn't seem like you guys like need anything from each other outside of being good collaborators, which is helpful. - We like flinking music together and I like value and trust his opinion. And if he thinks something, I'm always like, oh yeah, let's hear that. And same goes on the other side. I'd be like, I really think this. And even the other day, we were recording. And I was like, Matt, what do you think? It was a song I wrote and I was like, what do you think of the guitar solo went a little bit like this? And he goes, oh, great idea. And like the, like, he's so open. You know what I mean? - This is kind of controversial in some ways, but I do think that one of the things that makes this a valuable relationship is that he's not trying to take your publishing. - Yeah. - And that you guys have your roles are well-defined. And it's not like that is, most bands, like the issues come from people saying, well, yeah, but I want this or I want this. And it's like, unless it's structured in a way where everyone is like, nope, this is what you do, this is what I do. - Yeah. - And like that's why this functions as well as it does for so long. - Well, he just, he doesn't have a big ego. Like he's a total genius, but he has, like he's not an ego-driven person. He's like an art driven person. And he has such a successful solo career as a singer and songwriter and like, and producer that he doesn't like need to try to, you know, like take credit from me for anything I do. Like he's just incredibly supportive. Like he's like one of the good ones when you're like, oh, that's a good, that's a good person, you know? - At what point did you realize you are a successful musician? - Oh, gosh. I think like when the second record came out probably, I was like, oh, and we were touring a lot and we toured for like 10 months that year. And I was like, I'm tired of touring. And this feels like where that thing where you're like on the bus and I was like, I'm so tired. I don't wanna go on stage like this random festival. And then I was like, I gotta get on stage 'cause it's somebody's Saturday night. And then I was like, oh, this is what being a successful musician is. It's like touring and being like, you know, hello, Cleveland. When it's not your like, when you just wanna be, you know, watching, you know, a romcom on the bus. - Totally. - I mean, this is, we talk about this with, you know, with any sort of like, nightly host or news anchor. You know, the fact that you have to leave that at the door. - Yeah. - Whatever it is that, whatever that is. - Yeah. - You know, every day you have to show to the today show and be like, hi, I mean, while like at home, it's like, it can't be like that every day. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, volume 2 is kind of nuts because it charts really high. - Yeah. - You know, you're charting, you know, these are top 10 records and stuff. Are you starting, did you feel the pressure? - The only thing that kept us out of the top five was that Justin Bieber put out like two, like a best of records or something at the same, like two records in the same week. And we almost hit number five, but he was like number two and number five or something. So we were like number six. I remember this. But, but make sure you back check. - Yeah. - Yeah. So I didn't feel any pressure. I never felt pressure from music, which is what I love about it. And love that I had other things I could do that made me that allowed me to just do what, like what we wanted to do that wasn't affected by like trying to play anyone's game. And that we really came in out of left field, like completely, we weren't developed as artists. Like, we were just this like organic thing that grew out of liking to play music together and, you know, Matt liking to produce the songs I wrote. Like, and, you know, us liking to, you know. - When does the next album come out? - So we're working on it right now. Yeah. We've recorded a bunch of songs. And we have a little more to do. You know, we like to sit with our, like we'll go in and do, we did like a week of work and then, and then we did another day, the other day, 'cause Matt was in town. But yeah, like I'm gonna be writing a lot this summer and writing more stuff. But we like to sit with stuff and figure out like what every little baby song needs, you know? - Yeah. - Some songs need a lot and some songs need very little. - The one thing you can't rush is perspective. - No, and listening, and I love like just sitting and listening to those mixes, the rough mixes and being like, oh, you know what? - Usually it's so listen to the rough mixes besides you and Matt. - Just us. - You never play 'em for-- - I mean, not normally. Like we might, it's like, say we have somebody coming and to play on it, we'll let them, you know what? I let my kids hear a couple of songs. I also, I let them hear it because I had my kid, my son plays drums and my daughter sings and I let them come and do it. My son did a percussion, my daughter did a little, like kind of a call and response part with me. Just so that they could have an experience being in the studio and it was so exciting, you know, for them. - Yeah, I definitely have had both kids, you know, make some noise that have made. I don't think that they, by the time it comes out, it's so young. - They won't remember. - I don't remember doing that, but I definitely, you know, also a good saga after moments. (laughing) - My daughter, when she was a baby, I brought her in and she played a jingle, like some jingle bells on one of the Christmas records. And you can hear her, if you listen carefully, going, ah, you know, baby's going, ah, you can hear it on one of the songs, it's pretty cute. - What's the song you wish you wrote? - Ooh, I wish I wrote, so that's such a great question. I mean, are there any parameters to that? Because there are a lot of songs. - Okay. - Should it be modern, should it be old? Like, 'cause I, I feel like. - Okay, what's a showtune you wish you wrote? - Ooh, a showtune, I wish I wrote. - I didn't know that. - Cursor Lico, then Lady or Lady. - That's what we were seeing that before. That'd be so great if you were like. - If I was like, I really like this awesome hairstyle. - This one, it's called, like, lonely go-her. Although, you know what? Actually, one I love from that show was one that Hammerstein wrote by himself. - What? ♪ I have confidence in sunshine ♪ - I didn't know that. ♪ I have confidence in rain ♪ ♪ I have confidence that spring will come again ♪ You know that song? - Yeah, that wasn't a Roger's. - So, are they crazy? - Or they made the movie, Richard Rogers passed away. And there are two songs that Oscar Hammerstein wrote by himself. I believe, unless it was the flip, but I'm pretty sure it was Hammerstein. And 'cause Rogers had the whole heart, you know, Rogers and heart, like, era. So, you know, Rogers had been around. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm really excited to see. I've heard amazing things. But, so it was that one. So, I have confidence and something good. And they're both beautiful songs. Great songs, yeah. - Yeah, it's pretty cool. you know, you, you write songs by yourself and an era when everyone is afraid to do this. And I don't know why everyone's afraid to do it, but it's like it's what you're, what you've done is is you have the number one song on TikTok from 17 years ago, not because it took eight people and there was an industry plan, you know, it's like it's not that. It's just because it's authentic to a human and their story and it's a real story. Thank you. Thank you so much. That makes sense. My favorite part of this whole thing, by the way, is hearing people cover the song because I have heard like heartbreakingly beautiful covers that I consider better than our version like on TikTok and I'm so touched like people covering my songs is like that is my greatest dream. So to me, I'm like, I'm in heaven. Like people covering like like new takes, I'm like playing the chords in different ways too. Like I please certain inversions of the chords partially because my hands are tiny and so it's like really pretend. Limitations, they do things. One of my big limitations, I have tiny hands part of why I play ukulele. Just like like the Kristen Wade character, I can't say. It's not that tiny, but like, I can't do more than an octave. Like I can't do more than an octave and so I never want to get too much because I always worry that I'm not going to hit the, you know, the notes properly. If I put too much like of a spread on the keyboard there. So that has guided most of my choices. But I like hearing how everybody plays them and, you know, covers on different instruments and and like it's great. It's so cool. What's the biggest misconception about you as a musician? That I'm not a musician. Like or that I'm not a songwriter. That I, people think that I only write lyrics or, you know, that I don't write music or, you know, or that I don't play instruments. Thank you for doing this podcast. Yes. Thank you for having me. This is so fun. Well, I mean, it's it's so it's so enjoyable that you are such a music door. You were such a you were such a nerd. Yeah, I am such a nerd. It's funny because my kids made up their own sign language that they talk about me and like, yeah, they talk about the parents, me, Jonathan and their dad with this sign language. And last night they did this thing and then and I was like, what'd you guys say? And they go, we said mommy is a nerd. Like, it's true. But whatever. I shouldn't assume that there's something which is limited, but but that's like, you know, that's it's not inaccurate. No, I you know, it's it's this thing where we are all I said this earlier, but you know, it's been it's it's hard to you know, have your own road in this and in a obviously there's there's there's no set rules and you know, but not everybody successful in this business and not everybody gets to do all the things that they want to do. And like you said, you said there was very little precedent before you, but there's a lot very little precedent after you as well. And part of it is because you're just are actually a songwriter who actually does the process of reporting music in an organic way. That's why it's successful. And as from the outside, you're like, man, this person's doing movies and TVs that's great in the way that you want to do it and making choices and you're doing music that's the way you want to do it. And as a composer, a songwriter, podcast host, whatever, you know, you're just constantly trying to be like, what is who am I and what are the choices that I'm going to make with the time I have on this planet. Yeah. And the only way it works well is if you constantly are yourself in that snapping back to authenticity and having your North Star like always in your vision is so important. And I think that's like one of the things that like you always have to have a North Star because you can get really pulled off if you're not going. My North Star is making things that are meaningful, telling stories that people connect with. And, you know, and doing things that are like pure self-expression, like those, you know, would be, you know, part of like my, I guess, North Star constellation, that that is what's guiding me and not like money or success or like that I'm like, I'm okay. I'm okay as long as I'm doing that, you know, and it's not, and that my aim is never like, I got to get this many things. I'm always like, if I like it, there will be some other people who like it. So that's all I think about. Isn't there some, you know, and just trying to thought I was ending this thing. But like, you know, how do you not have, like, is there any, at this point, is there any part of your decision making that is commercially based? No, like about music, no. Or anything. I think there have been times where like within that, like being an actor, maybe there have been more things like because I have, I guess because they're like, I have done, you know, because it is such a huge collaborative thing. I have been like doing a network TV show, you are marketed, like, you know, you are marketed by a big old team, you know, and that's a real thing. That's a, that's a life-changing thing. But like that's sort of outside my scope. My thing was always like, you know, remember, like, it was like 10 or 15 years ago, everyone started talking about brand. They're like, what's your brand? What's your brand? And like, brand is just like who you are. Like, why are we obsessed with making a brand? Like, brand is just who you are. And like, if you are yourself and you're authentic to your own self and all that, you don't need to worry about it. And then, you know, it's so, I have tremendous respect for like, you know, marketing, but, but usually that's just like, if they can capture who you are and communicate that, that's the best marketing, you know? Yeah. Well, thanks again for doing this. I'm excited to see when you, when you're back in LA playing the Hollywood Bowl. We are playing not the Hollywood Bowl, but we are playing here in October. So, I'm gonna be there. Let me know. Oh, we're there. Okay. All right. What a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. God.