Ep. 252: Lizzo | Rock Bottom, #1, and the Game Nobody Explains

We can't think about like dropping the biggest shit in the world. We can't think about ourselves like that anymore. You got to super serve your fan base. It'll be the biggest shit in the world to them, and that's all that matters. I don't give a fuck what anyone says about the timing. My timing is always on time. You have so many billions of streams. Did you feel like one in one number one that you made it? No, I was actually very depressed and I wanted to quit music. That was bad. Like, I don't ever want it to get there ever again. What was dropped those going on in your life at that time? These kids today, they don't know what it's like to have a little rental car driving from 500 to 500 cat playing for food. I was creating a crowd for myself. Like, I was building a fan base by doing this. Now I can do my own tours. I was able to gross a million dollars on my own independent no label. Grossing a million dollars has not the same thing as netting a million dollars to teach people about touring economics. When an artist grosses a million dollars, what's the general take home from something like that? Oh, honey. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's chart topping superstar started topping charts by popping off where the streams are. On your phones, on your screens. She was seen everywhere when she really, really broke in 2019. A trained flautist with a pen. She was so popular when she broke that pop music became her personal subgenre. All the way from LA these days, this artist earned her place in the business and continues to show why she ain't going anywhere. And The Writer is Lizzo. Oh my god. Okay, so I'll do interviews and they'll be like, this next guest needs no introduction. I mean, and I'll be like, I sometimes I want an introduction. And you just gave me everything that I've been wanting. I'm like, what would you say about me in an introduction? And there it was. I'm very, I'm flattered. I'm floored. When you're a flautist, you can't sing at the same time. Who says? I mean, polyphonic flu. I'm Herbie Hancock. Watermelon Man. Mario and Luigi theme song. You can be boxing. You can do all types of things. You can be boxing, play flu. You can, you can hum. You can lay a half away and and do two two tones at the same time. When you say watermelon, man, were you a jazz flautist? No, I wasn't. I'm, I'm actually a big faker. I just started. I had a residency at the Blue Note. And it was my first time ever like actually playing jazz flute. I've been a classical flute player my whole life. And now I just think I'm like Miles Davis. Are you, are you, are you enjoying it? I am. I have to read sheet music to be able to play jazz, which is so opposite. Like I can freestyle classical vibes. But I have to read like jazz sheet music. But I'm loving it because it's, you know what? It's made me a more virtualistic like singer and performer. Like recently now I'll be doing little riffs and choose notes that I would have never have chosen before. But because I have like a little bit of jazz relativity going on in my head. And I'm like, ooh, that's, I would, I really learn. I was jamming with Robert Glassper. And I was like playing the wrong note. But there's no such thing as a wrong note. It's just like you got to make that wrong note, right? So when you have that and you apply it to like the voice, it gets real fun. It's weird and pop it's, you know, it's melismatic or it's runs. But in jazz, you would call that scatting. Have you ever just scat it? We do, we do. Yeah, actually I like scatting more than a melisma. Like I'm not a runner. I'm not a running girl. Like I didn't grow up with that part of my throat. Like whatever jazzman Sullivan has in there. Like that staircase to heaven where she can just do runs up and down all over the place, I don't have that. Like I have to work really hard for my runs and I give you one run per song. One, if you listen to any of my records, I'll give you one. And you know, thanks to Ricky Reed, he told me he was like, don't be doing these runs all the way. Because I would try. I'd be like, come on, just let me do one a little. He's like, that's the one you get on truth hurts. All right, I'll take it. Did you, do you work on your runs and and rehearse them before you record them? Yes, oh my god. There's probably footage of me singing the run over and over and over and like hitting myself. Because I don't, I'm telling you like I have to, the thing about runs is like it has to feel effortless. So like I have to do it with effort like first. Like let's say the run I just did he, he, he, he, and then you have to like do it over and over and again too. It doesn't sound like you put effort in it. That's the fucked up thing about runs. But yeah, when you would sing when you were younger, did you sing classical musical theater stuff? No, I sang. The first time I really like really sang was rock music. I was in a rock band. So it was called ellipses. It was the plural of an ellipses. Yeah, I got that. Might be dyslexic, but I'm not stupid. The, how did you guys like, what is this band? Is there evidence of this band? I've found them on Craigslist. They were looking for a singer. And I just like pulled up on them and auditioned. This Houston Houston. And I would just get drunk and just, I was really inspired by said Drake, Bixler, Zavala from Mars Volta. And the way he would sing just, you know, he would just whale. And I was like, I'm going to do that. So I was really going for that back then. But it didn't in my opinion. It was so far from gospel, which is the music I grew up on. I was like, it's way less technically skillful. But actually, that's not true. Because when you think about the notes that Cedric is hitting in the Mars Volta, it takes so much skill. But I think I underestimated that. So I actually started the hard way. Which is just like belting and shrieking. And like whistle toning all over the place. And singing over a band, like, you know, it's loud and it's broad. Oh, I fucked my shit up. And I was, I was not very good. Let's be real. I was not a very good singer at first. It took years of playing shows and like, trusting myself and practicing to get good. And being in the studio, honestly, being in the studio made me a better singer. Were you trying to write songs for ellipses? I joined them and I was singing the words that they had already written in the beginning. And then I joined as a songwriter. But I've been writing songs my whole life. Like ever since I was like, maybe like in the third grade. Like nine. What was your life like before the third grade? I was an infant. I was in Detroit. I grew up in church. Yeah, I grew up, I was born in Detroit. I grew up in the Kojik church. And in the church, the congregation, the choir, the pastor, everybody was like my cousins, aunties, uncles, great-grandmas, all the elders were just all family. And so I grew up in a really musical family. Like I have cousins who are just like prolific bass players and drummers and singers. And so I would watch them. And my mom played piano and organ in the church and saying. And so I just never thought I was like that good enough. You know, I would watch, but I couldn't play anything. I couldn't sing. So that was first part before third grade. And then so I was like, because I remember being intimidated of your own relatives before it. Yeah, but it's like not even just intimidation. It's just like common sense when you grow up when like your mom sang with the Clark sisters and the whinins. You're like, yeah, I'm a songwriter. I was like, I'm just due to writing. Because I was like, I'm smart. And that's what they would always say to me. They'd be like, you're just so smart. Melissa, say something smart. You know, my sister could sing. And I was the smart one. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna put them smarts to use. And I'm a right, right songs. So the hitsville Detroit life, like your family grows up surrounded by this culture, right? Yeah. I think a lot of that was, I didn't really, I wasn't aware of. Because I moved to Houston at such a young age. I moved to Houston in the third and fourth grade. So I don't really have that much like formative memory. But my, there's stories about my dad's mom, like having like Marvin Gaye stay at her house. And having like, you know, Motown musician stay at her house. And then my mom's side was more the whinins. And like touring with them. So it was like a very rich musical history in Detroit. And I think that you just, that's in my DNA. No matter when I moved away. What's the first song you read? Oh my God. The first song I wrote was called Broken Household. First off, that's really deep. It was called Broken Household. It's the first song that I wrote that I remember. - How old were you when you wrote it? - Probably 12. - How did it go? - It was like broken. (laughing) I don't know why I wrote this. It was broken households. Children lost hope. Family struggling. Battling sin. Now that was the lead. And then the background, it was like no more, it was like no more pain, no more rain. - Make it shine, make it, no more rain, no more pain, make it shine, make it bright, no more rain, no more pain, make it shine. - So that was like, and I would tell the girls, I was like, okay, that's your part. And then this is your part. And then it was harmonies on the low part. No more rain, no more pain. - It was, I was a stacker. I was a stacker. - So at 12, it's just like, that's already Houston. So we're jumping around a bit, but who are these girls? - My friends, so anyone who I was best friends with, I would be like, you wanna be in a girl group? 'Cause it was Destiny's Child peak. Like I skipped school to see Destiny's Child perform at a Walmart parking lot on Dunville and West Timer. And it was just like, change my life. And I was like, oh my God, they sound so amazing. They's all singing a harmony and they run in heels and stuff to be trained. And so all my friends, I would just be like, don't you guys just wanna be in a girl group? And they'd be like, yeah. And it was like kind of fun for them, but I was like, dead serious to me. - Yeah. - And I'd be like, okay, after school, we got an audition of the girls and we got a rehearsal. We got a, and I was like writing wraps for girls and writing harmonies. And yeah, it was just anybody who wanted to be my friend was also in a band. As a Houston girl, it's pretty well known that you're a Beyonce fan. Explain your love of Beyonce. - I don't, I consider myself a student of Beyonce. It's like, it's beyond fandom. Because I had the opportunity and the pleasure of watching her and growing up with her in her artistry. Like, not personally, but you know what I mean? Like, the kids today, they get Renaissance Beyonce like, but it's like, man, I got crazy in love and I got B-Day and I got, I am Sasha Fierce and I got four in real time and I got to watch her develop into the artist as she is now in it. And it's such an incredible learning experience for me. She taught me so much about how to be perfect and I was trying to be perfect all the time. And then she stopped trying to be perfect and I was like, yeah, we don't have to be perfect anymore. And then she just like completely deviated from like pop, like the pop path and the path that people wanted her to be on. And she like paved her own way and now she's created just a culture around her. That's so hers and so ubiquitously Beyonce and so like just everlasting. Like, she's gonna just be Beyonce forever's a legacy is what I watched her create. And it's really, really beautiful and inspiring to see 'cause I don't know how often we get that in our lifetimes. We get to see an artist like that. Her ability to move left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn. That would make you back in the same spot you started. Left turn, left turn, right turn, right turn, left turn. Like she's making sure that every album moves her story forward and not your story forward necessarily. And that not all albums are accepted equally or created equally or meant to be consumed equally. They're just supposed to be a part of her life. It seems to do that as an artist, you have to keep your head down and you can't really look up and see what everyone's thinking of you every step of the way. Are you able to keep your head down? Well, I'll say to the point of Beyonce is like, and I was just talking about this earlier as a pop star, you kinda get to a point where people will be confused if you give them something that's not the brand. Like if I put out a screamo flute album right now, people will be like, huh? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what's this? Where's the, is about them time? Where's the, you know, bum bum, where is it? And I think people wouldn't be able to grasp it. So it makes me go, might as well just give the people what they want. And when you're a pop star, you kinda start being like give the people what they want, give them what they want, over serve, super serve. What Beyonce did was like, she stopped giving us what we wanted after four. When she dropped Beyonce's self title, she stopped giving a fuck about what we wanted and started giving us what she feels like we are privy to, or you know, should be privy to in her life. And I'm not there yet. I'm still trying to give the people what they want because the people's voices are so loud these days where I'll put a song out and people will be like, where, why aren't you putting out the rap stuff? And I'm like, I don't think I'm supposed to see this opinion, you know? Or if I put out the rap stuff, they gonna be like, girl, we wanna see you sing. I'm like, I, so I, I'm working on just making things. It's like making things versus the releasing of things. And right now I make whatever the fuck I want. And that's a really exciting place for me to be in right now. - Yeah, people want authenticity, but then they judge the authenticity. - Mm-hmm. - You know, and that's like an impossible place. Are you internalizing what people say? - Yes, I am what? I'm an artist, I'm sensitive about my shit, but there was one thing that I internalized that I had to turn into a life lesson. I released a song last year and it was, I love this song. Actually, "Leaven Relife" cannot wait to play that song live because I think it's just gonna be one of those things that just, I don't give a fuck how it's received. It's gonna go crazy in a venue. However, I dropped "Leaven Relife" is still bad. Still bad kind of had a little bit of a disco funk feel and it was very uplifting. And we were in like the beginning of Trump's second term and it was very bleak. And somebody was just like, "Not right now, Lizzo, when I put the song out on Twitter." And I was like, "Ugh." And it hurt me and I shouldn't have let people know that it hurt me 'cause now that's like a joke that they say about my music. But when I heard that, when I saw that first, it hurt my feelings 'cause I was like, what do you mean not right now? This is what music is for. This is what, you know, the '60s was all about. Like the most uplifting music, but it was like one of the darkest times and one of the most like politically fucked up times, but they had Motown and all this like bright, sunny music 'cause people needed a beat to march to. And I kind of got in my feelings about it for a while and then I realized it is always, it's never gonna be right, but just put your shit out. Like, you know what I mean? And now I'm in a place where it's like, I don't give a fuck what anyone says about the timing. So I don't, when I internalize something, I know I'm gonna get a good lesson out of it. I'm not gonna let it defeat me, you know? - Yeah, my wife keeps telling me not to read comments, you know, and I know that I shouldn't, but it's really hard, isn't it? - I don't read comments, I don't read comments at all anymore. I used to, how to just stop. - How, I think like my trauma response to comments is so like visceral that it's not, I physically can't, like I'll, sometimes if I see, if the comment section accidentally opens up on my TikTok or something, like mice, I can feel my spine, like secrete, like adrenaline and fear. And I'll be like, oh, close it, like I'll do this. Sometimes if I want to comment, I'll do this and then write my comment and then send it and then just keep like, and cover up the words. Like I'm so oldy about it. 'Cause one bad comment can throw off your brain, your brain chemistry for the day. - Hey guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of Man the Writer is, if you ever wanted to sit in that seat across from me, well guess what, you can now join the conversation. That's right, 'cause we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback, you can hang with us directly and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community and maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie X, X, X and Sabrina Carpenter and Lynn Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. - I know you've been working on this album for a long time. - Yeah. - And it's really good, I listen to it, which I don't always know fence to other people, but I listen to this and it's really good. - Thank you. - You have put a lot of time, why is it so hard, why is it so hard to really, and album these days. - Right? It's hard to release an album in the traditional way. Like to do a traditional album release is very difficult because people don't have the attention span and that they used to have. An album roll out, you know, it's like a six month thing and I don't think people have the attention span or patients for that anymore. Now it's like every day when the news drops is something insane or terrifying or unbelievable or never happened before. And we can't keep up with Yosengord as dropping in seven days. I want the single now because tomorrow I'm gonna forget 'cause something crazy is gonna happen or someone else is gonna drop. So I think that everyone is just like an attention deficit right now and everyone's fighting for attention. And I think the best way to get everyone's attention is drama. So if you see an artist that's drumming up a lot of drama, it's like, well, they're being, they got you. You know, gotcha. You know, they're selling you something and they're doing a good job at it. I think that's why it's harder for people who are just genuine artists who don't wanna get in mess and drama and just wanna put their music out in peace. It's hard and it's hard to even reach your fan base because of this algorithm based internet where sometimes the things you even wanna see aren't prioritized to you because everything is like, I don't even know trying to like trick you or something. Like, you know, they're showing me shit, I don't even wanna see. I'm like, I don't wanna see this shit. I wanna see stuff from the people that I follow. Well, I don't follow anyone, but you know what I mean? What I did, I wanna see stuff from the people that follow. I wanna see stuff from people I like, from artists I care about. There's artists who dropped projects. I didn't even know they dropped a project because my algorithm didn't tell me. I know, it's crazy, even the biggest artists in the world. And the world, and the last two years, every major artist has dropped an album and it just feels like impact is hard to actually have these days. Like, it just feels like a bunch of asteroids dropped and there's just water everywhere. So it's like, you can't really feel impact 'cause everything is just quaken and shaken and busted up. So what's the, who's the audience you're trying to reach in 20/26? - I am only talking to people who buy my music, who come to my shows, who give a fuck about me as a musician and an artist. That's it. I think I've done a lot of talking to everyone at once. And when you talk to everyone at once, you get everyone's response. And it's like, actually, I don't give a fuck what you think 'cause you not buying tickets to my show. You not supporting my music. You know, you can make noise about me on the internet. Thanks for the free promo. But when I'm talking to people now on the internet or when I'm making music and that's why with this rollout was so important to me because it's for the community of people who've been waiting to hear music from me. We can't think about anything like we can't think about being what's the word? Dropping the biggest shit in the world. Pop stars can't, you've got to super serve your fan base. You know what I mean? And it'll be the biggest shit in the world to them. And that's all that matters. - Yeah. It's hard, it's hard enough to reach them. But then you're also trying to predict what they might like. You know, or do you think that your super fans are willing to go on your musical journey with you? Or do you have to give them music that you think they like? - I tested that out last year. I dropped two mixtapes, two rap mixtapes that I made in like two weeks. It was my face hurts when smiling. And my face still hurts when smiling. And I got a lot of mixed reviews from my fans. Some people were like, this is what we want. This is what we've been waiting for. And then the other side was like, okay, but when does Don't Make Me Love You coming out? Because it was really good on SNL. And I was like, damn, you know? So I do think back to like trying to stick to the brand. Stick to the lane that you've created. I do think there's a little bit of that that comes into play. But with this album, with Bitch, I feel like I've done a really good job of giving the Lizzo platter. That's what I've always done. It's like always like, you know, you get a little poo poo platter. You get a little bit of, you get a little bit of, a little slice of pork over there. You get some rice over here. You get a little dessert right here. You know, you get a little bit of rap. You get a little bit of soul. You get a little bit of rock and roll. Get a little bit of classical, a little bit of flute. - Listen, I like that there's like, you know, I mean, then the singles coming out, there's like, it feels like Tina Turner. And you've got like the, you know, the Shelley Pike and Bitch chorus and all this. It's like, it's clearly, you know, leaning into interpolations, into a vibe, into an era. What are your thoughts on interpolations and samples in 2026? - I think we're in a sample hell. I think we're in sample K-hole, where it's like, we lost the plot of what a sample is. I think that sampling, I think there's a lot of covers out right now that people are calling samples. But no, you're just covering the song. - Ah, yeah, I understand. - And it's fine because we're in like a nostalgia base, society, like the nostalgia is a hot commodity. Like everything is nostalgia. Like all the remakes of movies, you know, the sequels, the reboots, the songs that are just an old song from like 10 years ago, what a new artist on in some new 808s, I think nostalgia sells more than innovation and newness. So you can't really fault anyone for it. I'm a snob. So I'm very, very particular about the way that I sample and the way that I interpolate. And when we, when we were doing Bitch, it's really funny because Blake Slatkin and Ricky Reid they presented the "She's a Bitch" beat and I was like, "Oh, this is cool." I was like, "This is real cool." And I just started writing to it. I do my thing. We was doing a little, we stayed in the Missy World. And then the bridge came up 'cause we were writing all the way through it. And I think the chorus was, "If you call me bad things, "I'm gonna be bad, baby. "Get to know me, you'll see there ain't no bitch like me." She's a bitch. That was the old hug. So we got to the bridge, which, that's an original melody, original lyrics, no samples, no interpolation. We got to the bridge and I said, "Bitch." I was like, "Y'all, what if I just was like, "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover over the bridge." And they were like, "Oh." And I was like, "It's smart, right? "We just put it in the bridge. "We give them that one moment, "butta boom, butta bing." And they were like, "Yeah, yeah." So I laid down a scratch and we were sitting and listening to it. And I was like, "If we're paying for it, "we're paying for this interpolation, "we're paying for this lyric, this top line, this melody, "put it in the fucking hook, bro." And we slid it in the hook and switched. And I put my old hook as the bridge. And bitch was made, but I was like, that was so, I was fighting it. Toof and now I was like, "No, I can't just sing another song. "I have to be original, it has to be, "I've got to be clever with the interpolation. "I have to be clever with the lyric melody." But no, sometimes things just feel good. And I'm so happy. - And it's an homage and it's a moment. And I think that people take songwriting so seriously that they don't give themselves the opportunity to say, that bridge is actually the chorus. Who cares if that chorus was this? Let's move that over here. A lot of people think songwriting, especially, you know, I guess muggles out there. Sort of look at songwriting in this way that's like, it has to be this emotional response to this time. And you know, this is so precious, don't touch my song. You know what I'm saying, man, this is better. This makes the song better, best song wins. And you're just having fun with Ricky and Blake, shout out friends. - Yeah. - You know, I applaud you on that. Speaking of Ricky, you know, Ricky produced my last album as well and we sold, I think we have almost a million streams. So how many of you guys, how many of you guys had? - Not more than that, right? You don't have more than a million streams. - I just got my billionaire plaque. - For which song? - For Truth Hearts. - You have so many billions of streams. And I believe Truth Hearts is nearing diamond certification. - We are triple plastic, bro. - Oh, triple plastic. Is it Ricky's so fun to work with? - He has been, I mean, you know, we started when, when he was in wallpaper and I was in glacier hiking and we wrote the follow up to fuck you for Celo and we did anyway. And that was like our first song together. - Wait, your band was from glacier hiking? - Yeah. Like have you ever done a glacier hike like the one in Colorado? Queen and did one way later in a in Alaska totally unrelated to the I like I should come up with that name if you've never glacier hiked, bro My bandmate had that idea, but you know for the record like we're kind of a big deal I'm very very very small like very very very very very very very small community So we were like kind of the thing very very short amount of time and you know Anyway, Ricky's great. I want to get to to Ricky where how do you get from a parking lot in Houston with your Friends that you're making into your girl group to moving to Los Angeles and pursuing music. Yeah Um, I'll give you the short. I think hopefully the short version I was writing songs And then I started rapping and I think like rapping for me was great because I was like Oh, I don't have to sing like it's way less scary But also in Houston everybody freestyle rap all of my friends Like my friends in LA will come to Houston with me and we By the 2 a.m. Are all doing like a freestyle cypher in the car and my LA friends are like how come you are all so good at rapping How do you think of words that best? It's just in the water It's just something purple in the water in Houston and so freestyle rap came very natural to me So I started a rap crew Um, called the quenro click and we all had different colored quenros and we had some fun songs. What color? Corners were yours. Oh my God mine were red mine were red and There's a picture of us like and then um That turned into my rock band. I audition for my rock band And then things got really hard in Houston and I was like I need to get up out of here But I had met someone actually glacier hiking The queen and glacier in Colorado. I like this. I know and he had a band And he was like you want to sing he was like let's do some like like little zoom sessions or Skype or whatever And so I was writing with him via Skype and he was like you're so good like Come move to Minneapolis with me So I moved to Minneapolis with him and joined his band and we played for a while Well, of course I started two other girl groups and within a year of living there and then um, there was a producer Ryan Olson Who was like I want to well first off laser beak dropped this mix tape laser beak from doom tree the juneteer collective They're like a rap crew on rhyme sayers in Minneapolis laser beak dropped a beat tape called um um, oh my gosh lava bangers And I was in a really bad suppression and a really bad writers block and I listened to like every CD from rhyme sayers and I finally got down to lava bangers And I listened to that CD at that beat tape and I listened to it over and over and it broke My writers block and I started just writing in this notepad and I filled up the whole notepad to damn near every song on the beat tape And I was like I want to make Lizzo bangers so I made Lizzo bangers With this producer Ryan Olson and laser beak and that Um got Ricky's attention, I think Because I was touring off of that. I was like opening for like fucking harm our superstar and like Churches and Slater Kenny and and just playing shows and um harm our superstar is a pretty crazy Minneapolis shot out. Yeah, that's crazy. That is um I actually was opening for him then I would run backstage and change my wig and sing backup for him And then I would run to while my DJ sold his merch And then afterwards I'd run to art the merch booth and I'd sell we'd sell my merch And then we'd hop in a little rental car and just follow behind him to the next city Like we were Grinding. I don't think nobody knows about that life no more. These kids today They don't know what it's like to have a little rental car driving from like 500 cap to 500 cap or if sometimes 150 300 cap playing for food like Is it because Why is it that this generation doesn't understand the grind in the way that you you grow? I don't think they don't understand it. I don't think they can experience it I just think we live in a different time. I think the grind is more on the internet Now it's like oh there's like This generation will tell the future. Yeah, I don't know nothing about posting your song five times a day every day For six months hoping that it blows up like it's that it's just a different kind of grind I don't think there's an indie Grind anymore where that takes you to mainstream. I don't think that exists. I think we're losing that Yeah, I mean well, what's strangest it's the grind that you did that gave you the Foundation to create the music that ended up blowing up Widely because of the internet. Right. Do you know what I mean? So the strange thing is that it's the lack of foundation that that's the difference I think a lot of people grind in a very similar way, but strangely the kid in you know That's in Minneapolis that just is about to drop Liza bangers right is now going to do the exact same kind of rollout That Liza is going to do also because the you're both it's both in the same box. Yes exactly I think that's the part that's crazy is like everyone's individual journey Of that era is not being It's hard to be an individual when everyone's being perceived from the same box whoa That's a little deep I don't know So Lizzo bangers. Yeah, Lizzo bangers you do this album and you're opening for You know parmar superstar and and slater kitty and uh and how does that my morning jacket. Oh cool I hope in for so many like indie bands. Those are huge artists. No, I'm not small. No Right, but indie was huge at this time How are you getting in front of like who who's booking you? um Who's booking me who's discovering this apple? I was I was on CAA um And I was signed to totally gross national products, which is like a small label in Minneapolis And so I had I and I had a management. I was managed by 30 tigers. So I had like infrastructure um And I was but also like I was I was creating a crowd for myself Like I was building a fan base by doing this. It wasn't just like building credentials being like oh look who she's toward with It's like no now I can do my own tours because when I get out in front of This person's audience I converted them to Lizzo fans And so they're subscribed. So I was able to gross a million dollars on my own Independent no label or in a tour just because I played so many fucking shows and turns so many haters into congratulators grossing a million dollars has not the same thing as netting a million dollars grossing a million dollars is incredible But to teach people about touring economics. Yeah, when you uh an artist gross is a million dollars What's the general take home from something like that? Oh honey Not I didn't take home. I didn't take home much I mean a lot of it is I was in the red for a long time Because you're paying for everything like I said no labels. So I'm paying for my crew. I'm paying for the van I'm paying to Produce the merch paying for gas paying for hotels paying for my hair I didn't want her makeup, but you know what I mean like you pay for everything So I was my dream was always to be in the black like I would talk to my business managers and they're like okay You're in the red you're in the red for this and then one day we were in the black and I was like So but then I still didn't make profit for a long time. I don't think I started making a profit from my music Until truth hurts blew up. I remember I started making a profit in like 2019 How crazy is that I think the assumption is while this person grows a million dollars on tour They see these crazy numbers But they're I forget who the artist isn't someone will will will mention it Some decent-sized artists. I want to say it was like a Kate Bush kind of artist recently said that they're not gonna tour anymore because The cost of touring is so astronomical for a mid-tier artist. Yes, and a current mid-tier touring artist that that even if you're playing 3,000 cedars if you have a bus you're not making a dollar no You know, and the idea of like grossing a million dollars is incredibly that is that is the 0.001 percent of touring artists And the take home is still the red. Yeah is is is still why the grind exists. Yes, I don't think people understand that There's like a huge Disconnect because they see like a person who like looks famous because they're performing and they look successful Asso now shows you think they're rich and they're not like all of the things that you see the production the lighting the outfits Like someone has to pay for that the band someone has to pay for that and I think like the artist artists who are actually making a lot of money from tour are selling a shit ton of really expensive merch. They're selling like bombs and stuff at their shows. They're selling like certain experiences. And then they can make money off of that. But it takes a lot. It takes a lot to actually make money from tour. - What's crazy even about Lizzo Banger's now is that for sure, over time, it's continued to grow. And it's probably not part of your current deal with nice life. It's a separate thing. - Yeah. - You know, and it's like that generates, you know, the, what was the label, again, you said? - Um, totally gross. - They're still making money from that album. Like it's crazy that when you put out product at that point and you're working so hard for that product, that over the success of the future albums only helps the whole catalog is kind of, it's just a comment on the longevity of your first stuff. - Yeah. I think I want to be, I've been saying this, like actually I texted Ricky and Blake this 'cause when bitch came out, they were like, "Whoa, it's the video's great." And I was like, yeah, I was like, guys, we make great music and we sell out tours. Like that's my new slogan. Like I don't wanna chase anything that's not for me. I just want to be, I wanna take my mentality back like, when I first released Truth Hearts in 2017, it was such an underwhelming response. And like the massive platform that was gonna premiere, it went dark on me. And there was like a bunch of other weird things that happened that day and I was really depressed and I was like, I wanna give up on music. And then I was like, wait, we have to reframe our goals here and what it means to be a musician and I was like, whoa, you just be cool with being a touring musician for the rest of your life. Let's just be cool with that. Like you have a loyal fan base and you can scale up and play arenas for the rest of your career and put out albums. And I was like, okay, I'm happy with that. And as soon as I was happy with that, two years later, Truth Hearts blew up, number one, three Grammys, da da da da da. And then you kind of get lost in the sauce 'cause then you start number one chasing. You start Grammy chasing or at least people around you have that expectation. So you kind of put that pressure on yourself and I feel like that was cute all the way till 2023 and I just think the music industry has changed immensely between 2024 and 2025. And I think like analysts and like experts, they know what's up. I don't think the general public knows yet but there was a massive shift in the way music comes out and the way music performs and the way music is received. And I think now I have reframed back to the 2017 version of me where I'm like, oh, I just need to be cool we'll put in out really good music. Being on the right side of history, selling out tours, playing a stadium when I'm 80 like Tina Turner, that's still the goal. - Well, I mean, let's, we'll skip ahead back. I had it back. - Okay. - To let's go to Good Is How. 'Cause like, you know, you have, you know, you release a big girl small world between that. And I think that's about the time when I, when I first came across or when you were first presented in my world. Like Ricky starts working with like, you start working with the crew. Like you start having, you know, you're in the circuit and you know, even when Good Is How comes out, it's like, this song is good, but it wasn't Good Is How, what we get, it's not the Good Is How reception that comes later. - Is that so funny? I was just saying this to myself. I was like, wow, what an honor it is to what I was saying this about, I actually, I was saying it about Good Is How. 'Cause Good Is How, how do I say this without sounding like I'm, like, shitting on myself? I watched Good Is How go from like a silly like, just like one of them silly like, oh, a silly little body positive song or whatever the fuck is about or I can't remember how I said it, but like, I watched it go from that, a song that wasn't taken seriously to now, it's like gospel. Like I've watched the conversation around it change and I've watched 'cause I love you go from something kind of like weird and avant-garde to like, that is like the moment in the show where people are just like screaming and singing like, I've watched it become a standard and I think that that is really cool. Like when you make good music, it doesn't depreciate in value, it only gets more and more and more like in value. Like it appreciates. It becomes legendary and I feel like all these songs that we think are so legendary now, when they first came out, they wasn't considered legendary. They was just a record, do you think, is there like a famous story about a song coming out that, I mean, there's so, there's so many ver, that you know, the Bruce Brincy never had a number one song. It was the Manfred Man cover of blinded by the light that went number one. It's that kind of thing like of all those hits that he had, none of them were like, none of them were pop number one, billboard number one songs. Like, you know, there's so much. - You think about like Charlie X, the X's career too? Like, a lot of her stuff is coming out now and people are just like gagging and they're like, this is so incredible and it's like, yeah, well she, this was out, you know what I mean? Like, and I think that's the beauty of music too. Like when it's good, like the timing will always match. Like you'll, it'll rise to the occasion. - Let's do this next segment called the Good As Hell segment. - Okay. - Name an artist who's good as hell. - An artist that's good as hell, I would say good as hell. There's so many good as hell artists. Missy Elliott is good as hell. - She's good as hell. - Name a producer who's good as hell. - Missy Elliott. - Ah, sick. - Uh oh. I love that. Name a rapper is good as hell. Missy Elliott. A lyricist who's good as hell. Missy Elliott. - Okay. - Name a TV show that's good as hell. - Severance. - Oh yeah, that's good as hell. Name a restaurant that's good as hell. - Oh my God, I love food so much. What's the restaurant that's good as hell that I've been eating from lately? That's always so good. Oh my God. What do I eat from? - Goop. I think goop is good as hell. It's seasoned. - I'm shocked. - I mean, it's such, it's an easy, it's an easy go to. - Is it? - Well, 'cause yeah, 'cause we can order generally healthy foodish and it can show up at your door. - But it's easy. - It's like the same as it did yesterday when we were doing it yesterday. - I'm a goop. - Shout out goop, you can sponsor our podcast. Name a movie that's good as hell. - A movie that's good as hell. Mr. Holland's Opus. - Oh, it says the floutist. - I know, I love that movie. - Name a song of the new album that's good as hell. - Oh, a song that's good as hell. I would say happy to be. - That's good as hell. - NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so Truth Hertz comes out. Following good as hell, then Truth Hertz comes out. And it's still like, if you saw the chart of for how long it took for these songs to go, you're talking about not just a year, not just months or years, a song comes out. Most labels, there's a label that is still is trapped in the like, how did it do in its first week? And we'll just stop pushing the song. And most artists also stop promoting their songs way too fast. Why did these songs really, why did Truth Hertz really break? And why did it take so long to break? I think that I'm a little ahead of my time. I've always been, but you know, and I don't say that as a compliment, I say that as a Jesus. Like, I wish I could be right on time, but I'm always about like two to three years in the future. Truth Hertz came out and it needed, my fans loved it, like when it came out. And I would perform it on tour, the good as hell tour, people were like, woo, but it didn't really, I mean, it's not a number one woo, you know. What happened was, is what I think is the new normal now, but I kind of innovated that. I think I'd had the I was the first artist to have a song go number one that came out three years prior. It was the longest gap between a release and a number one. And then of course running up that hill beat that record by like 30 years. But the rule that was broken or that was created was music needs a sort of emotional connection to connect with people on a grand scale. Like dropping a song because for a long time the industry would would give us that. They would tell us how to feel about a song and they would they would match a moment with a song and just put it out there and we were all like sure this is the one. This is the because there we didn't have the internet. We weren't streaming. It was just we took what we got. With the internet it was streaming now. The industry has a harder time making a hit and telling you what a hit is and curating that. There's no gatekeepers. Now you kind of need a moment to meet with the music and then it explodes in sort of critical mass. It's a phenomena. And my song had been put placed in a Netflix film. And it was just like one it was this one specific scene where she was going through the breakup and she was singing truth hurts to herself and and it connected with people that scene had an emotional it listed an emotional response. And then there was a stream response and people were streaming it and trying to find and consuming it and and it just it grew a life of its own and I remember the label being like hey something's happening with truth hurts and I was like yeah whatever because I had because I love you coming out I was like I don't care about that old shit like you know and they were like okay well we think this is something you should pay attention to. I was like I was like focused on my new shit and then they were like hey so it's on the Billboard charts now and I was like okay you know where you know kind of in like maybe 20s or 30s then it was like hey it's number seven I was like what and then it was number one and I was like that's crazy but I think because people connected it with something emotional it it grew wings. The space between releasing it and it being a hit did you feel like you had made it during that or was it was there a point in that how did you how did you deal with your you know your trajectory when you're releasing songs and there they exist. But there's a huge difference between that and it going number one. Did you feel like when it went number one that you made it? No I was actually very depressed I think when my song went number one was like a really dark place in my life but I think that's a cliche I think a lot of artists when they have their first big moment there's always some other like fucked up shit that happens. What was fucked up that was going on in your life at that time? I and here's another thing that I don't think today's artists new artists know much about pre-COVID like promo that grind where you're like doing radio performance after radio performance and then you have a show and then you have a club gig and then you have like 12 hours of interviews and then you have a flight and then you have to do it all over again and it was a lot of that and then I had a lot of like people around me who were kind of manipulative and where I was being pulled in a lot of directions and it was really really dark because I was I was getting no sleep. You know we were drinking, working, coping and you're exhausted and then this great milestone happens and I remember I was in rehearsal for the tour and I remember it went number one while I was in rehearsal in New Orleans and everything was going wrong. People were like fighting over my attention, fighting over titles and trying to pull me here and there and I didn't have the energy for any of it and I was really sad about like heartbroken over some some love shit and I remember being like oh this feels like shit and they had like this number one cake for me and I was like it was after rehearsal and I was like I just want to go to sleep you know this I don't care this doesn't feel like anything I didn't you don't feel like you made it after that because it's just a thing it's just like it's just a thing it's like oh number one I think you realize the impact of that afterwards when you are like when everyone starts treating you differently you're like oh maybe something did happen but opportunities are like of course you can do this and of course you can have this and of course here here you know doors are open that we're never open before and that's when you start to think oh something's different something has changed is that the lowest part of your career? No I've had no I would say the lowest was still 2017 when I dropped through thirds and I felt kind of like dropped a little bit by the people who were supposed to support me and like label why so what do you mean? I had like a premiere partner that went dark um my label was celebrating something else at the time and I think that that made me feel insecure and I was just sitting at my apartment in Echo Park with nothing to show for a song that I thought was the greatest song ever in a music video though I thought was the greatest music video ever and I wanted to quit music like I was just like why am I doing this like but like I could just go work at you know smoothie king or something and just like singing gigs I was like that was bad like I don't ever want it to get there ever again shout out smoothie king though she was firing a little pizza sticks that they got to though I wasn't expecting that to go there so quickly the um I'm no I thought we were going to get to pizza sticks later but I mean no it's weird though because that moment is a two year moment you know it's like you're at your bottom you're like that album the song comes out premiere partner goes dark and that moment is two years and then to be able to be like I told you so yeah was that were there moments that you had actual I told you says no I um I think it speaks for itself I don't have to say it I'm like I'm always right I know what I'm talking about you know did uh how did your family react to you have any number one song did did they change um I don't know my family is very proud of me but I also um for a long time like supported them financially and still do not my brother but you know my immediate family I am there like main support and I think that like that is part of it that's part of the the number one of it all and having a family and loving them and caring about them is you um you just add them to the the the yeah yeah yeah do you feel a pressure from that or is it is it sort of like well you know it was a pleasure it was an honor I you know had always wanted to be successful so I could take care of my family that was especially when my dad was alive like I was like okay I'm going to take care of him and then when he passed away I got like really sad and depressed because I was like I was was the point and then I was like you still have more family to take care of girls so once I was able to pay for my apartment and pay for my place and their place and they didn't have to pay nothing no bills no nothing like I was like oh my gosh like this is this is what dreams are made of in it I love giving I'm such a giver but I also I get taken advantage of a lot because of that good as hell is obviously you know a uh like we were saying I also had to come back you know when they were like we're gonna push this next I was so confused were you like why are you pushing all my old shit no I was so good because first they were like can you reshoot a music video for truth or sounds like fuck no like I love that video like that video was a vision that my medium the psychic medium told me about and I was like this video is just like so good then so I was like fuck no so then with good as hell they were like can you reshoot a video for good as hell and I was like why what is happening so we did and I reshot it because the first video was a was associated with a film so it was like the film promotional video but then once it started kind of getting legs three years later I reshot a video at a oh my gosh what was the march in southern university I started with a marching band and it was really fun um and then they were like hey do you think Ariana Grande They would want to like sing on the song. was like, well, we've been DMing. I was like, I don't, and it happened so fast. Like, first off, Ariana Grande is fire. Like, she was just like, what were you doing today? Come to the studio today then. And I was like, whoa, okay. So I just pulled up on her. And like me and her sat down. Victoria Monet was there. That's why I first met her. And we all just like were writing. And she hopped on the good as hell remix. And that took it to the top 10. And I was, I was like, how what is my life? I was so, I was so confused. I said, why are all these old-ass songs like, research, having a resurgence? Because good as hell wasn't in a television show. It wasn't a movie that came out years ago. But there was no new thing connecting good as hell to people. I don't know what, I don't know what made good as hell go up. - It really messes with the idea of what we all think the music industry is. And you had been in it at that point for a long time. And so for two hits to go back to back that are old, that's really confusing. - Yes, and they weren't on my album at all. 'Cause I love you. And I thought, 'cause I love you was like my open. So I was like, this is the best album of all time. And it worked so hard on it. But then I like slay at truth hurts and good as hell on there, I was like, fuck it. You know? - So crazy. I mean, that obviously juice, tempo, rumors, you know, these all, like it's just insane how big that was. Did you feel pressure to match the success of that album? - I did match the success of that album. - I know that. - Was special. - I know. - And it was so funny because of how lopsided the success was. Like I feel like I didn't have the same. I'm also a part of a generation, a newer generation of artists that like we did, 'cause you kind of mentioned this earlier about like, yes, I would grind and I would play all the bars and stuff, but also I had a sort of internet come up. And I don't think a lot of artists before me had that internet come up, but like me, Doja Cat, Billie Eilish, Lil Nas X. - It's all the same time, right? - Yeah, we were all kind of coming up with like on the internet. And, oh my God, what was my fucking point? You asked me about. - Time out special, Mack and Matt. - Yeah, so because of, because of how lopsided my come-up was, I didn't drop like an album and the album was like a platinum selling album and then I dropped another album. It was like, I dropped singles and then I worked on an album for two years and then those singles blew up and then I dropped that album and then I put those singles on that album and the deluxe and then that blew up. And so the blow up was just kind of like, it was, you know, it was just blooming. So I was still kind of like, I didn't feel like, oh my gosh, now I have to match the success of, because I was on a roll. So when I worked on a special, I was just like, hell yeah, let's go like, I felt pressure from the outside and I was like, why are there anybody acting like this? I say, why are you, why are you acting funny now? Like, what happened? But everyone's like, you know, the sophomore, the sophomore record, you know, the sophomore slump. And I was like, oh, I don't know what the fuck you were talking about, but, you know, when did you know, I mean, tell me about writing about damn time. - I was gonna say about damn time. The record of the year, like, number one. I hated that song, I hated writing that song. Oh my God, I hated it so much. And I feel like such the cliche of an artist, 'cause it's like hating, writing your most popular song. I love the song, but I hated the process because I was done with my album. I was done with special. And I wanted my single to be, I think, everybody's gay. And the label was like, or actually, I remember, it was, we were like coming out of COVID. And so we weren't in the studio like this. We were like far away from each other. And so like, sometimes we were working Zoom, sometimes whatever. And Ricky had this set up at, what's the Michael Jackson Studios? Do one with the monkey in it. He's not East West, it's West Lake. - So Ricky had this set up specifically. At West Lake. - There's two West Lakes and you can find yourself at the wrong one if you, if you like. There are times where I've been at the other one and been like, I'm here and they're like, you're at the other one here. - Yeah. - Got it. So yeah. - So the one that we were in, he had a couch in the live room with a microphone for me and he was in the control room. And I remember that day, I was like, I'm not, I was like, I'm not coming in. Like I'm done with the album like, no. And Ricky was like, please, he was like, I have something, me and Blake have something we think is, we think it's crazy. And I was like, play it for me on a phone. And if it's good, I'll come in. And you played the beat, you know, but I don't want to bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. And I was like, I'll be there in 10 minutes. (laughs) And I pulled up and I remember writing the, like the song came out easy, you know? A freestyle, the second verse, the inner minute, I'm in need of, this is a freestyle. And it's about damn time was like a, well I said, it's about that time. And it was like, no, it's about damn time, you know? But so that all came very naturally. The issue was the sequence. And it drove me fucking crazy because Ricky was like, it just doesn't feel right yet. Like I think we had like a turn up the music, turn down the lights. Oh no, this, oh, this is dedicated to all the boys I hate or some shit like that. Like turn up the music, let's make it great. It just dedicated to all the boys I hate or some crazy shit. And I was like, interesting. And we couldn't really find the angle. And it was driving me fucking nuts 'cause I was like, it's done. The song is done, like just leave it. 'Cause I didn't think it was the hit. I didn't think it was the single. I was like, fine, you know? And Ricky was just like, I just still don't think it's right. Yeah, I still don't think it's right. And I remember like just sessions were like, God bless him would be like, all right guys, I'm gonna turn down the lights. And then come on. There's a woo! And he's like doing this. And I'm like, uh, trying to like get my energy up to like match the vocals to the track. And I remember one day, I remember one day we were sitting down and we were, we could not figure out the hook, like the, like just this little part in the hook. And I was just like, I'm gonna be okay. Okay, all right. I'm gonna be all right. Okay, all right. Like, why can't we just say I'm gonna be okay? Okay. All right, why can't I just repeat that? I was such a bitch about it. And Ricky was like, huh. Good, you know, Ricky who have his like, he's like, that's like, he's like, I feel that right here. And I'm like, what the fuck with me? Like, he's like, I really use like, that's really good. He's like, lay that down. I'm like, all right, I gotta feel it. Okay, all right. It's about that time. He was like, that's it. And I was like, give me the fuck about it here. 'Cause if you really think about when it comes songwriting, I'm gonna be okay, okay, all right. I'm gonna be all right, okay, all right. Like, that doesn't feel like it after writing a million lyrics. Like, I have a million lyrics to this song. If I could pull it my phone right now, I have every version of about them. There's like 83 versions of that fucking chorus. Everything was written, but that fucking chorus. And for it to just be as simple as, okay, all right. When I'm giving it, delivering it with an attitude, I was like, I was gagged. I was like, are you sure this is the hook? And he's like, yeah, it's like perfect, it's simple. And then like the rest is history. The funniest part about the song is I start loving songs when there's like Ricky loves putting like gang choruses and gang vocals and party tracks on my stuff. Like, this is a tradition we've been doing since juice. And I'll call anyone I know who's in town and bring 'em in. And so he was like, come on, let's do the, and I was like, oh, it's party track time. Okay, this must really be the song. So I had people in and we were like running back, running it back, and then after the take, people just talking and shit. And then Ricky was like, okay, we wanna run another one. And I was like, anyway, and then the beat came in. I was trying to get everybody to like get together to let them know that we're running another party track. And that's how the song starts. And I was like, damn, I kind of fuck with this. (laughs) - It's 'cause it feels like a party, it really is. - That chorus is so special because of its simplicity. And if it was as complex as those verses, which are, as off the cuff as they may have been, as freestyle as that second verse is, if that chorus is as dense, lyrically as the verses, then I don't know that, I don't know. Does it? I think that there's like a trade-off when it comes to like writing a good song. I think if you're going to give us a crazy dense chorus, then let the verses breathe. If you're going to give us a crazy dense verse, let the hook breathe, you know, or even like the sandwich in between. Like if you want to give us like something a complex concept in the verse and the hook, then let the pre-beat just like dumb and simple, like there's, you do, there is a balance to it. What's interesting though is like truth hurts the chorus is really complex. Yes. And like it does all the things you're not supposed to do. Yeah. It doesn't repeat. Why does truth hurts work compositionally? I think that's Ricky Reed, I, because I didn't know what the fuck I was doing at the time. I, writing truth hurts was like going to therapy. Like I had, the, everything in that song I was talking about to Ricky and he was writing it down. I was just, cause I had gone on like a date with this like Minnesota Viking and my friend who was like, she like, was a hairdresser. I went and like, I was like, I just want a new hairdo and she washed my hair and it was just like everything was literally happening to me. And with a bunch of like bumper sticker lyrics sprinkled in and like weird melodies. I don't know what works about that because when I first heard that beat, I was like, huh? What are we doing? Like, I was like so thrown off by everything. And I think Ricky's genius is that he has, he can hear and see things that other people can't. And he saw the potential in that and he kind of carved that out of stone, cause I was not, there's a lot of songs that was very consciously writing like, you know, about damn time was very conscious, special was very conscious. But truth hurts, cause I love you was super conscious working with Sam Harris. I love him. Truth hurts was one of those things where I was like not even paying attention. I was like just rambling and crying and like going off and then he was like, you know, you just wrote a song and I was like shut up Ricky and he was like, you did. And he was naming the lyrics to me and I was like, oh, it's kind of fire, isn't it? But I think our theory was, if every lyric, he calls him bumper sticker lyric, if every lyric is a bumper sticker, then it's a hook. Every bar is a hook. So you don't need to write a classic hook because people are going to want to say the next thing that you say right after you say it, you give him a couple moments in the verse, like a melody to hang on to ring on my finger, sing and single, like you give him that and that becomes ear candy. That becomes fun to sing. I always say it has to be the last line of the pre-chorus needs to be the, that I always say it's the bumper sticker for that spot because I think like if you can nail this moment that everyone overlooks, then then like it makes you have to write a great chorus and like somehow like the set up line, like always feels like that's like, you know, I don't really have. I don't think that song has a pre. That song, the lyric that's right before the hook is that and that's the sound of me not calling you back and we decided to do a hard cut in the music. I don't that part doesn't repeat that that yeah, that chorus is mind-boggling. What was it like getting Missy Elliott on tempo? Oh, dream, Missy, Missy represents so much to me, like an unachievable greatness and I had had, I had worked with her prior to her getting on tempo, I felt like I had to kind of like, I felt like I had to kind of prove myself to her. I don't know if she, I can't speak on her feelings, but I spent like time in Atlanta with her in the studio and she would put on beats and just make me freestyle to them and it was very reminiscent to Lizzo Bangers because even though Lizzo Bangers was written the way I recorded it was the producer would just put the beat on and then he would make me run it three times and I wasn't allowed to go back, I wasn't allowed to edit, I wasn't allowed to recut and then what what I gave was what it was and with Missy it was the same except it was freestyle off the dumb she's like, okay, now go on and freestyle to this and she would like, okay, run it back one more time, run it back one more time and then we will move on to the next beat and I was like, I don't know what kind of rap gauntlet I just got put in but it was really, really magical to feel like she, like believed in my talent and she was like, yeah, you got like a genius brain and when you have a genius brain sometimes you have to just like, and I was like, I couldn't, I actually don't remember what she said after that because. Yeah, exactly. So the end after that when the tempo moment happened and we were able to get her on there, it was just like an idea that I didn't think was possible but I think because she liked the song and she also believed in me as an artist like she gave, she hopped on that song and made it such a special moment. I remember the music video was crazy too. We shot it in Atlanta and I kept trying to, you know, I'm five foot nine and she five foot two. I want to dance with you and I was a fifth, okay, they're fun. And in the photos, I kept like, hunching over and she was like, you need to stand up tall and like, don't, don't yield or bend down to anybody. Just show music video and I was like, whoa, like she's giving me so many like jewels, like just by existing but then like actually knowing her, it's so cool that the person that you look up to is also wise. No, that's, that's amazing advice. What's advice you would give Lizzo when if she walked up to you in a music video? If I walks up to me, I don't know what I would give myself. Would you give younger Lizzo? Let's say Lizzo, let's go with Lizzo beats, what's the, what's advice you, Lizzo bangers? Yeah. What's advice you'd give Lizzo from Lizzo bangers? It's really hard to give me advice because I've done so well. I don't want to fuck it up. I'm like, grow your good, you know, just learn from everything, learn from everything good and bad. You know, mistakes are not mistakes, there are opportunities to get better. Let's do some rapid fire questions. That's the right pace for when you start rapid fire questions. You breathe, you take your time and you're making sort of awkward silence. Describe your relationship with social media. Complicated. How so? Well, it's a love hate situation because I'm obsessed with the internet. I'm an internet kid, like I'm obsessed with social media. It's how I found my voice and but also recently social media has become a sort of toxic place and is extremely weaponized and so it's hard sometimes to be obsessed and love something that doesn't love you back. Yeah, I mean, obviously you had to deal with a lot of drama publicly. So how did that affect the way you wrote songs afterwards? Oh, um, okay, there's two parts. Part one is I was like, I have something I need to respond to in the music and I was like, I've never been in this position before where I feel like I have, I have to respond to something in my art and people are waiting to hear that. I've never been in that position and it made me, I don't know how it made me feel like there was one part of me that was like, okay, challenge accepted, but then there's another part of me that's like, what can I even say? What's the point? Why am I here? What's my point as an artist? And I think after writing a bunch of angry songs and a bunch of sad songs and a bunch of super specific songs, I kind of landed on writing, um, I was like, I was writing like good shit again that was just like me and I was like, this is why I'm here. You know, and I think I, I had to like get through that, but I've always used song writing as therapy and not intentionally, I won't, you know, but, um, so I, I am very blessed and I'm able to like process all of my things that I go through in life and articulate how I get through it in song and help others. That's the point. My, my purpose here isn't to write a really cool song that like is just like, oh, this is a vibe. I mean, you bitches. You know, I could, and I have, however, the songs that connect the most and that really align me with my purpose are the ones that help and inspire others. So I was like, how can I help? And I think that no matter what happens to you in life or what happens to me in my career, there will be things that try to get me off that path of helping and knock me off my square. But I will always find my way back to the light and back to helping with my art. - Yeah, it's interesting 'cause you're, you know, your, those first few hits are all about being so vulnerable and being, you know, you know, it's this positive inspiring, inspiring thing. And so do you feel sort of, do you feel empowered or trapped by that, by having to inspire people? - I think it's an honor to be in a position where I can inspire people. I think I have, I think if it's a trap, then it's a beautiful trap. Like, wow, I get to write uplifting. It's a trap that I, I don't wanna call it a trap. It's a space that I create it for myself because I did it intentionally. I was like, I'm making, I don't, I have to make positive music. And it doesn't matter if like the subject matter is dark or if, you know, the energy is a little sad or there's not a happy ending, there still needs to be some sort of positive messaging, at least throughout the heartbeat of the song or at the soul of the song. And even with Don't Make Me Love You, that song ultimately in, in the end, the last line of the hook is like, don't waste my time, you know? But there's so much yearning, don't make me love you, don't make my heartbeat out of my chest, don't make me want you. If you just want something else, don't bullshit me. And, you know, allowing myself to yearn is something that I think I deserve at this point in my career. I wanna belt, I wanna yearn, ain't nobody out here, yearn and no more, everybody just talk about fucking and leaving and buy me this. And so let me yearn a little bit. But then at the end, what makes it a little song is, don't waste my time because at the end of the day, I'm always on choose me, you know what I mean? I'll give you an opportunity, but I'm always gonna choose me. And then there's bitch, where bitch feels like a sort of response to things, but at the end of the day, I want somebody to be able to be like, man, I don't care what anybody's ever said about me or calls me like, I can embrace the parts of me that maybe are not always on display, or the parts of me like that, the way Meredith Brooks put it out there. She, I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a mother, I'm a sinner, I'm a saint, I'm your hell, I'm your dream, you know, like, hell yeah. Like, we contain multitudes, we're not just one thing, we're not always happy, we're not always nice. You know, when you see a lot of women, a lot of female artists in the media get dragged for their behavior. It's like, oh, she didn't smile at me, or oh, she didn't want to take photos, or oh, this person, you know, allegedly did this, and they're a bitch, or I'm unfollowing them, or don't stream their music anymore, I'm not supporting them. And it's like, hey bro, like, first off, we shouldn't be privy to every single moment that happens in anyone's life. And the fact that you're privy to every single moment and now you're judging them off of a micro moment, not even off of how they are in general, you don't know what you're being served, you don't know what you're being, you don't know if you're seeing a video from five years ago, and then from five minutes ago, back to back, and you're like, this person's just a bitch all the time. It's like, you're not with them, you don't know them, don't judge them. And this song, I thought, it was a part, 'cause it's not even about me anymore, it's about how we as a culture have piled onto women and have just started to, we shame so heavily now, we're in such a deep shame culture right now. And I wrote this song to bust it up and to give people an anthem to sing to themselves. So everything I do is still useful, helpful, comes from a positive place, and hopefully uplifts. Are you happy? - Oh my God. You asked me this one the most hungover day of my life, and the answer is still, yes, I am happy. I think I was like very depressed last year, and I didn't realize I was depressed. That's the funny thing about like, depression sometimes, you don't know you're depressed until you're like, not depressed anymore. And you're like, oh, wow. But I also feel like, instead of living in that space, why don't I just help people get out of that space? You know, like come with me, like take your time. I'm here to let you know, it takes time, but you can get out of it. And you might get back in it, but at least you know how to get out of it again. - Well, that's a great place to wrap up. Thank you for doing this podcast. I've, you know, I met you once, and you wouldn't remember this because it was really in passing, but I was at Gold Diggers, the studio. Ricky was in the next room, I forget what band I was with, and it was just sort of like, you know, whenever you see like friends, you're just like, oh, this is the best. And it's like, when you see friends of yours dive into, like for him to have the relationship with you, and for you to speak so highly of them, it's like, it's so nice to know that there's loyalty in a game that is so not loyal. I don't wanna say, it's sometimes disloyal and not loyal. And you guys have developed this rapport that when you look at great writing relationships in the history of pop music, you guys have a catalog that has 10 to 15 billion streams or something crazy like that. Because of the work you guys have done together and continue to do in all the parts of your career. And it's just like, it's just such a warm feeling to know that, you know, your friends you came up with have found projects that just matter. And, you know, if you're friends with my friends and you're a good person, you know? And like you mentioned Sam Harris who's been on this, he's lovely and blank, he was great, and he was like, if all been on this thing, they're all like part of the crew and it's part, you know, it says a lot about the company you keep. And you keep really good company, man. - Thank you. - So. - I feel very, very, very blessed and very fortunate that I came up in the pop music industry protected. I was surrounded by good dudes like, and I'm so blessed that I was oblivious that that's not always the case. And you hear about all of these things that happen to people who, you know, have gone through so much shit and so much darkness in this industry. And it breaks my heart and it reminds me that like, wow, I was, you know, Ricky put his arm around me and made sure I felt safe and protected. Not only as like a woman, but also as a songwriter and an artist and on his label, you know, on the nice life imprint on that Atlantic. And even all, and that's why I rock with the same five motherfuckers, like Pop Wandsale, T. Ron Thomas, Blake Slacken, Ricky Reed, Sam Harris, like Cheche Lara, like, you know, I roll with the same little band of people because one band wants sound. And you're, you know, shout out Larry Wei, shout out Brandon Davis, shout out all these people. You know, these, you know, these, you just have, you've had people who, who from the beginning are like, you've, you've had good people. Yeah, it's on the executive side too. I've been like very, it's all around like people who really can't be in you when, when True Threats was out and it wasn't a hit yet, those people were telling us about you. So like, you know, you know, you were always a star in our world. Oh, thank you. Thank you for doing this. Oh, thank you for having me. We'll see you for the next album. Yes, okay.