EP#25- Disarm Your Inner Critic with Ben Schoelzel, Co-Founder of Deep Breath

[Music] Anxiety is basically the fear of the future, and depression is basically regret about the past. At the intersection of these two, it's basically self-esteem, which is the relationship I have to myself right now at this point of time. [Music] That was Ben Scozel. Ben is the co-founder of Deep Breath, which is a digital scientific program targeting low self-esteem and young professionals. Eventually, Deep Breath will take the form of an app and provide users the right skill sets and psychological frameworks to combat issues of poor self-esteem. Before starting Deep Breath, Ben was a former consultant at Boston Consulting Group working out of their Berlin office. I actually have the opportunity to meet Ben a few summers ago in Berlin. He was the head instructor for a class I was taking in Berlin through this program called I Experience, and I remember him giving me really great life advice. So it's been really amazing to see him now branch away from consulting and move into starting his own company where he's been able to combine his passions for meditation, teaching, and mental health. In this episode, Ben and I talk about why issues of self-esteem are essentially the common denominator of many struggles that people face and how Deep Breath will help individuals improve their own self-confidence and feelings of self-efficacy. We also investigate the direct relationship between our self-image and our worldview and what the implications are for our quality of life and well-being. I hope you all enjoy listening to this episode. Ben had some really insightful pieces of advice and wisdom to share just as he did when I was his student a few years ago. And before we get into the episode, I have a brief message for my sponsor "Romor Skincare." [MUSIC PLAYING] Today's episode is brought to you by "Romor Skincare." Based out of Chicago, "Romor launched a clean skincare line that covers all of your skin needs, proving that you don't need a million serums and eye creams to get better skin." I love this product because it's sustainable, made of clean ingredients, and "Romor Keeps Skincare Simple." Taking care of your skin is an important habit, and I've noticed that when I'm keeping up with my wellness routines, I not only feel physically better, but I'm able to adopt a more positive mindset. So invest in your well-being. Visit romorskincare.com to receive 15% off of your order by using my code "Endorphins15." [MUSIC PLAYING] Hi, Ben. Thank you so much for coming onto "Everyday in Dorfins." It's great to have you on the podcast. Hi Stella. Thanks a lot for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Two years later, after a fun summer in Berlin, here we are. And now you've started your own company with your co-founder Maria on Deep Breath. So I'm so excited to learn more about the origin story behind Deep Breath, and where this idea was created, how it came to be. I think basically Maria and I were both former consultants, and consulting is known to attract so-called insecure-over achievers, which is basically people who have the need to prove themselves. And one of the things we also realized after our consulting career is that it's actually quite widespread that people, especially young professionals, really struggle, like starting their career and finding their place based on our own experience, as well as some of the research we did. We realized that a lot of the challenges that people have basically boil down to self-esteem. And Maria and I both have an absolute passion for personal development and growth. We are interested in running our own company, and I think really making a difference. And lastly, we also realized that basically no solution out there, that target self-esteem, is really comprehensive. They're all very narrow, they're all very limited in what they want to do. And so we figured this is basically a topic that we are passionate enough about, and where we can also really make a difference, because it's small enough to work with it, and find a solution. I love that term insecure overachievers. I mean, I'm also going into consulting. So, yikes, but I mean, I think that really describes the culture, at least at a lot of college campuses, or just the way in which success is perceived in our society, like this constant need to keep achieving and being the best at everything, and qualities of perfectionism, and there's just the sense of competition, which I think breeds a lot of insecurity. And that makes a lot of sense that this idea that everything can really be boiled down to self-esteem and self-confidence. I've always thought, you know, like a lot of things can be boiled down to fear. And would you say that fear is closely related to this idea of things, you know, being boiled down, or the central thing is like around your self-esteem. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's basically too very related, like mental challenges that people have. One is anxiety, one is depression. Anxiety is basically the fear of the future. So, as you just said, like fear is one of the central components. And depression is basically regret about the past. And so, like at the intersection of these two is basically self-esteem, which is the relationship I have to myself right now at this point of time. So, yeah, absolutely fear, I think, is a very, very big component. And like this fear of the future, it also brings with it really a lot of struggles, this desire not to make a mistake. Like if I only make like one wrong step, it ultimately means that like my life life is ruined. And I think it's very, very deeply culturally embedded. We have to live the perfect life. We have to live like the Instagramable life. And we never fail, we're always strong. He's a very, very strong cultural like penets that are out there. And yeah, it's like 20 years now, it boils down to self-esteem, in my opinion. Well, I mean, especially with social media, as you said, this idea of having to live the Instagramable life, what we see constantly on our feeds, it's really just a highlight reel of everyone's life. And I think we're all culprits to it too, if you're on Instagram or other social media channels. So, I think that also really definitely can impact our own self-esteem. But I love this idea that you bring up about self-esteem being the intersection or being right in the middle between anxiety and depression. And even if someone isn't suffering like with a clinical diagnosis of either having anxiety or depression, it's interesting to kind of see this concept of self-esteem and self-image still interact with those two concepts and still be really integral to the way in which you behave and the decisions that you make. Because ultimately, I feel like that's a reflection of the way in which you think about yourself, regardless if you struggle with anxiety or depression more or less than someone else. Yes, absolutely. And I think, personally, how we relate to ourselves is very important in terms of how we also obviously feel about ourselves and the decisions and risks we are willing to take. Yeah, and I mean, especially in college, it's a period of time where I think there's a lot of expectations that are put onto the label of going to a four-year university, like what it means to be in college for four years. And it really is a time where I think you're forced to really engage with yourself critically and understand the relationship that you have with yourself. And I think that's really also illuminated through the relationships and the types of relationships you build with other people around you. And so that's why I really love the concept of deep breath and your passion and the work that you're doing because it can first of all, this can benefit anyone and it should benefit everyone. But I think especially at this age period between 18 to 24 or 25, when you're transitioning into young adulthood and then transitioning out of it, that's a critical period of time in your life where you're really forced to have these types of conversations with yourself. And I also think the pandemic, being stuck in quarantine and isolation and is really, I think, forced a lot of people to have these conversations with themselves and think about these topics with more intention than we previously have. Yes, and I actually think, and this is, I find this quite fascinating because I think our society does not really value mental health and how we engage with our emotions in a fashion that is good enough to really allow us to sit down and as you said, have these conversations with ourselves. So I think what the pandemic am laid there for a lot of people is that when they set at home very often alone and they needed to eventually have a conversation with themselves. They actually like the tools to have this conversation in a fashion that allows them to grow as a person. And I really think this is in certain ways, this is something that we are slowly waking up to. And if you look at mental health, for example, I'm like how it's increasingly becoming more prominent. We as a society are waking up to the fact that mental health is really, really important. Yet we are still very much in the early stages of the bits and pieces that we can do. And I think deep breath, like the long-term vision, is to really help people grow as the person they can be, and ultimately also want to be. Yeah, I really love that. And I think as much as there's a lot of negative aspects of technology and the way it affects our mental health and our self-esteem, there's really amazing and productive ways that can be used, such as building out an app like Deep Breath, that can help and power people to feel a bit more confident in who they are. And I think that's really exciting to see it all come together. I just, I got an email this morning from the Deep Breath Newsletter. It's about meeting the psychologists that are on the team. And now I get to see the Instagram, the handle is Confidence Companion, which I love. I'd love for you to talk more about the team that you're building. So you have psychologists that are on board now. How does that interplay with the app and how users can engage with the app? We have a team of four psychologists. They're based around the world, which in its own already poses certain challenges. I think along scheduling meetings, one of our psychologists is in India, one is in Spain. So we obviously have time zone differences. But all of them are in same engage, all of them are very mission driven and really believe in the product. And they also bring a vast array of experience to the table, be it academic or be it from an actual therapeutic setting. So I honestly think we've managed to bring together a very diverse group of psychologists who are very interested in working on a solution that's as effective as it can possibly be. And what this means for our product is basically-- what we're working on right now is the core of our product, so to say, which basically means-- if you look at self-esteem from a psychological academic lens, there's a couple of related constructs, such as you mentioned perfectionism earlier. It's one of the related constructs. And what we're doing right now is we're developing a program with our psychologists to tackle all the important constructs for self-esteem to really offer a comprehensive solution that helps the user improve their self-esteem. Our first step will be to offer this in form of a course. The simple reason is that we wanted to have the solution available and out there as quickly as we possibly can. So the idea is to go live some time in April this year. And then basically, once we've built that, enhance on this. And what do I mean by enhance? The goal then is to add certain features that only technology that only a native app can bring, such as reminders, such as having the intervention timed when it's best for the user to receive that intervention. So when they're most conducive to actually working on themselves, all of us have good days, all of us have bad days. And I think on a bad day, chances are really sitting down and having this conversation with yourself is actually quite, quite difficult to do. So how about we do this on a good day when it just makes more sense and you are more resilient to actually really be doing that with yourself? So I think all of these are features that the like technology can offer. And then we are very, very interested in adding on top of this first course. Would you consider deep breath to be kind of like an online virtual therapy app, kind of like BetterHelp or Talkspace? Or I mean, I feel like it's a bit more academic than being paired with a therapist to kind of help you through some of some problems you might be facing. Like it seems like deep breath is asking the user to take these issues into their own hands and work through them through with the guidance of your offerings. Yes, absolutely. And I think what we definitely want to avoid is to rope in an actual therapist. We might or like we've considered this in the past. It's also always an option that we are willing to consider. And if one of our users really struggles, the goal is also to basically reach out to them and say, hey, you really seem to struggle. This is something that may be a professional should take a look at as well. So like the beauty of this approach is that obviously if we are a fully digital solution, like a fully automated solution, we can offer this to dramatically more users than if we actually need a human component. And we can also offer this for like a lower price, which I honestly think dramatically increases accessibility. And one of the topics you also mentioned earlier that a lot of people like they might not have access to a therapist or they might not be willing to go to one. And I think that's a very like large share of people out there who suffer, but who don't necessarily need to go to like a psychologist. Who don't necessarily need to go to a therapist to like go through therapy. But if they get the right tools, if they receive some guidance, they are able to like really grow and like work with the issues they have without needing to like drop 100 bucks on a therapy session. Yeah, absolutely. And I think something that's so great about this app, identifying self-esteem and self-confidence really as the common denominator of struggles that people face is that it's incredibly relatable to everyone. And I think even looking at like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for example, like this is fundamental, just the way in which we perceive ourselves and our self image and how we feel about ourselves, how we talk to ourselves. Like that is something that everyone deals with. That's something that everyone, you know, it's a pillar to each individual person and to their own development. And so I totally agree with you on this point that a lot of people probably are struggling with issues around self-esteem and self-confidence, but that definitely varies. And not everyone might need to go seek professional help regarding that, which is why I think deep breath is very accessible and kind of tackling this universal challenge or problem that a lot of people are, you know, facing either consciously or unconsciously. Yes. And I think one of the points you mentioned, which is very interesting is that exactly all of us have this inner dialogue, this inner voice that narrates our life and tells us basically what is going on and what is happening and also always delivers any valuation. And it's quite easy to get off track and actually lose touch with what is, so to say, objectively out there, what is happening? This evaluation is a highly subjective process. And because it is such a subjective process, all of us can actually also work with like changing how this process unfolds and this in turn affects how we see the world around us, which in turn actually affects how we feel about the world around us. So like this is very, very direct path to how we can start feeling, feeling better about ourselves. And I honestly think this, you only have like this very moment in time. If I assess this moment right now to be pleasant, and my past as well as my future experiences, will at least be evaluated in like positive terms. So like it always, it stretches out like the way I feel right now has an effect on the past and the future. So the moment I start working with like the feelings I have, that very moment I also start feeling differently about the past and the future. So it's very, very like, there's a very direct link between how I feel about like myself and how I evaluate like my life and the world around me. - That's a really interesting way to think about this. And not to get too abstract or philosophical, except I do think you would like this, but it kind of reminds me of the concept of like manifesting, or manifestation. This idea that once you are able to change your beliefs then your behaviors change, your mindset will shift and your behaviors then change and then the way in which you're behaving will kind of affect how you perceive the outward, the world, everything around you. And so once your behaviors change, ultimately results or outcomes will alter. And so I think this concept around manifesting, not necessarily how we see it portrayed on social media, like on TikTok, or if I, I think it can be portrayed as this very superstitious activity. Like if I say this thing three times every night, then this achievement will happen in my life. Like not like that, but more so having, it's really actually like, respective process and I think it really ties closely into everything you're discussing about self-esteem and building that and having this better understanding of how you think about yourself and how once you can identify that and have more positive thoughts about yourself than that will alter the reality around you in a way that makes life more enjoyable and more exciting. I agree and I think there's basically two elements and work. One is the moment I start seeing things differently, that moment they also, like things seem like or appear to be different. So I think that's one of the effects, like the moment I think differently about myself, the moment my self-esteem improves, etc. That very moment I feel like differently about the world and the world looks differently and I do look differently. And so I think that's that's one effect. And then the second effect and I think it goes back to consulting for example, as like a young consultant, one of the pieces of advice that you get is to like project confidence etc. Like communication is 70% of like a project's success etc. So just these rules of rules of thumb that are being used and ironically and not ironically but like this research for example that shows that people who are confident or who project confidence manage to like convince other people I'm easier. So to some extent you also actually have changes in your life simply by having more self-esteem, being more assertive, like better knowing what you want and what you don't want. And that in its own already allows you to like set boundaries for example more clearly and take up a job offer that might be a leap of faith yet at the same time it might actually be the thing that like really interests you that you find really appealing. So there's a couple of like subsequent effects in real life that you have. You could subsume under this like term manifestation. Right. You know I was going to ask what are some of those effects of higher self-esteem? Like how do we see that play out in our real life? Like how is that manifested in our day to day? And I mean I love this example that you give in consulting because I feel like I'm now pretty well aware of what makes a successful analyst after going through the recruiting process and whatnot. But yeah I mean communication as you said is a huge part of it. And I think really in like the business world or in the professional world how you present yourself like the energy that you're emitting like if you're more confident or if you are more assertive you can have other people believe what you're saying. And I think you know that's not in a manipulative way obviously but it's important to be able to get your messages across very clearly and get people on board you know with your ideas. It's very interesting to think how that really does play into self-esteem you know as is the most fundamental driver behind that. And I think this is really good advice for people my age who are now in college about to graduate. And we're going through this very big transformation right now where we're leaving college and then we're going off into the working world which is going to present so many challenges. So I think this is really important for my listeners to hear. Yes and I think once again like this transition it's quite fundamental like it was a relatively big change for me as well from a mostly like self-determined lifestyle where I could structure my days more or less the way I wanted to structure it. And like work on topics that I myself found interesting to switching to a life where I was mostly like my schedule was determined by someone else and I had to like follow a more rigorous schedule. And I think this is obviously one element but also very often at least in terms of like minds that this transition from like college to work and very often it's like a part of growing up and like now you finally like an adult you're paying for you bills yourself you're not dependent on your like parents anymore but you pay everything yourself. And I honestly think this is a relatively big transition that also brings with it and you expectations that you have for yourself. I'm like a new environment that you might not be comfortable in you've been like you've gone through college for the past three years now you're suddenly in a corporate environment. And so I think this is really a lot of like change that people like I'm not necessarily prepared for and they're dependent on like what in workplace environment you end up in and like what boss you have to theater are. This can be a very like smooth transition but it can also pose like quite big challenges for you. And once again we as a society collectively do not really focus a whole lot on like these like software factors that have an effect on like our wellbeing. Absolutely absolutely before I get to stressed out about the coming months and the transition out of college. You know I know you meditate a lot and you're very interested in these kinds of topics and I was wondering if you had any advice for those who are struggling with lower self esteem and also like what practices people can do or what steps people can take to bolster their own self esteem. And it's I think a very very good question. So you mentioned my meditation experience. I think meditation was like is definitely for me a form of respite every day. So like that's it's kind of like taking a deep breath that's also actually where to some extend at least the name comes from having a break like ensuring that I'm not only doing but I'm also being to some extent. If you really struggle with with low self esteem I think this more that can be done than like purely meditation. Meditation can help but I honestly think if you really want to like work on your self esteem it's absolutely doable and I also think that's the most important message. So like whatever you struggle with right now be it setting boundaries be it not being like assertive enough be it like always wanting to be perfect et cetera. And it's this is not a state that will last forever. Like there's a silver lining and you can get there. So I think that's that's the first message. The second one or like to make this a bit more concrete is there's really a lot of like tools and tricks out there that can be used. One for example is behavioral experiments which is something will actually like draw and use in our course. And behavioral experiments are basically minor challenges that you give yourself every day. You feel uncomfortable chatting to strangers. Okay, like start with like the tiniest step that is uncomfortable yet you still feel like you can do it. If you struggle like implementing this how about you ask a friend to like support you and to just be around. Let's go to a cafe, difficult during like Corona and it's maybe at the bus stop. Go there together and just ask the person next to you like what time is it? What is the right bus? And then slowly over time like up these challenges. So like talk to more strangers go into like topics that are that are more intimate so to say. So like how is that day going like where are they like traveling like what's going on? Like why do they have a big suitcase with them? So basically what you do is over time you expand like your comfort zone into something that makes you feel like initially it's a challenge way to big to tackle. And over time you like slowly climb this mountain. So that's one bit that you can do. Another bit is practicing like self-compassion which is actually one of the elements that the graph will incorporate. Basically just showing yourself that you are worthy as a person yourself and very often it's quite easy to like slip into this. Like we can show a lot of like compassion and kindness to our friends but we really struggle applying this to ourselves. And such as taking the perspective of like what would I do to like a friend who would have the struggles I have? Like how would I talk to him or how would I react to him or her? Like what would I actually do and can very often show us a pathway in like hey this is something that I can actually apply to myself and the situation I am in right now. I might not have gotten my dream job. But like what would I tell my friends? And then basically tell this tell this yourself. So there's a couple of like things that can be done. If none of these work there's a lot of like tools out there that are useful and powerful. The breath is one of them that we are working on. And also and I think this is always important to also mention. Like if you really really struggle and the world looks gloomy and rainy it's okay to see professional help. There's absolutely no shame in saying hey I struggle I need help. And I think this is honestly a sign of strength and very often like the first step to also like living your life in the way you want to live it. And while building up health. Absolutely. I think that's all really great advice. And off of that last point I actually watched Megan Markle's interview with Oprah last night which I mean my phone is blowing up with notifications about it. And so I said you know I have to watch it. But she she talked about how it's so important to seek help. And because not a lot of people are you know a lot of people are ashamed about doing that. And so I mean think of Megan like this figure, this huge figure in society and culture, in our world. And now we see her taking that leap of faith. I mean, obviously the whole situation is kind of crazy. And how that just the Royal family was very unsupportive, and, you know, everything that she touched on in the interview, but just the act of being OK with struggling and seeking external help, I think is so important into your point. But I also really love what you mentioned about just talking to yourself as if you were speaking to a friend. I think that was really, really important to hear and some good advice I've been given over the past few years. So I'm glad that you brought that up with deep breath. I'd love to hear when the app is going to be out and when people can start downloading it and using the services that deep breath provides right now the timeline is that in April, we want to go live with like the course, which basically means it's it's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be an online and like course on on self esteem developed with our psychologists, designers and content writers. So it's going to be the first step on this this like entire entire road. And we plan to like release the app within the next six to nine months. I think as any early stage startup, there's some flexibility in like schedule. And there's a lot of like challenges. And I think this was to do some extent also a humbling experience for me. There's a lot of like unforeseen and problems that pop up along the way, which really require a lot of like on on the spot thinking. But yes, the goal is to like release the app by the end of this year, absolutely the latest and like the course, which will basically be the core idea and compressed into like the best lectures and lessons that we can come up with. So that's very exciting. I hope you know my listeners follow along with the journey. They can check out the Instagram, you know, at the very least the handles confidence dot companion. And I'm sure there will be more updates, you know, posted along on social media as well. So very excited to see it all come together and very admirable that you are doing this. And I'm very much appreciated. Always always happy to hear words of encouragement. So yeah, thanks. Well, it's been so wonderful having you as a guest on the podcast, Ben. And before I let you go, there's one question I ask every single person I bring on to every day in Dorfins. What is something that brings you in Dorfins every day? I'm based in Berlin and Berlin is known as the capital of techno. I go for going for a night time run with techno, which Berlin has an industrial flare and techno being a very fundamental part of the city. I think it's a very good combination that is exciting and releases and orphans. I love that. I mean, from my own experience in Berlin that summer and seeing the techno nightlife and the techno side of Berlin, I think it was pretty easy to adapt to that in that culture. I'm not super, you know, into techno, but it was fun while I was there. But I can see how that definitely releases a lot of endorphins and happiness. And you're running. So it's the runners high. So two birds of stone. I'm trying it's a consulting background trying to be as productive and effective as I possibly can. That rings too true. Well, thank you again, Ben. I appreciate you coming onto the podcast. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for listening. If you liked what you heard, please follow rate review every day endorphins on whichever listing platform that you use to stream my episodes. Thanks again, and I'll see you next time.