Ep. 248: Rogét Chahayed | From Pianist to Sicko Mode, Kiss Me More & APT.

I spent years of my life suffering learning how to play classical music at knucklebusters, and then the first big song, my first big check, was literally. You even know what songwriting or publishing or anything was. Somebody's job is to walk in the room and make the most amazing riff ever. I want to be part of that somehow. There was like this three-week period where I made broccoli, what would become Skywalker, what would become bad at love, and what would become sick. I'm going to talk about like hating the lottery. Do you start feeling pressure? My dad sat me down outside and he's like, look, I'm going to help support you, but you have to be the absolute best. And then Drake comes in and says, "Astro, and I've been lost in." This is not happening. People are going to tell you you're crazy. People are going to tell you all sorts of things, but you use that as fuel. You will find yourself eventually at the right place at the right time. What's something that you played on, but didn't really get credit for? We basically got robbed. What happened was. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers, everywhere. Welcome to "And the Writer Is I'm Your Host," Ross Golan. Today's Cordmaster is a sound designing guru. This musical architect has crafted major modern pop smashes and hip-hop evergreens. He ain't the loudest in the room, but the room ain't lit without him. Because if one thing is true in the music business, it's that you can't teach taste. And the Writer is The Tasteful. Roger. Say hi. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, well done. We wrote once together. We did. Do you remember that? That was probably like what, like 2017, 2018, maybe with like Louis the Child. Yeah. Scrillex came through. That's right. He did. Sonny did come by. That is a wild session. I was thinking about that the other day. I was like, I really want to hear that. Someone has a balance of that somewhere. Somebody does. All right, we're going to find it. How does a, and we'll tell your story in a second, but how does a classically trained piano player come up with the chords for broccoli? By turning your keyboard on and telling the engineer that I need sound, it was literally just me kind of pressing it, just to make sure the sound was on. What? Yeah, that's how it happened. It's a crazy story, actually. Wait, you have to explain that. That's how like literally they, the guy just like, you're just like trying to get audio and then you just are, that explains why it's just like major triads. Yeah, it was like we had a session that day that just working on, on drums album, kind of like finishing up songs that were already started. And then as I was packing up, drum runs back into the room. And he's like, yo, he's like, yaddy just called. And he's about to pull up. And it's like 9 p.m. And I'm like, we've been working for like, you know, eight hours, whatever. And I was, we were exhausted. He was like, can we just like, do one more idea? I was like, yeah, why not? So I'm like setting up the keyboard. And, you know, like, we had a different engineer come by that day. And like later on, coincidentally, like, I had a friend come in to drop something off. And he happened to be a Pro Tools expert. And I was like, yo, like, I need you actually to stick around and help us out. Because we got the yaddy coming, the original engineer left. So he was like, okay, yeah. And I'm like, just turning back, turning my chord keyboard back on. And I'm just, you know, the original sound on there that when you turn it on right away is a piano. Like, right, when you turn that keyboard on, like, stock sound is just a piano sound. So I was just like, playing like this. And I was like, can you please let me know when it's on. And when you turn it on, it was literally the, you know, that's what was happening. And then the other producer in the room was like, yo, what is that? He's like, send me that right now. Gets the piano over to him. The engineer gets the piano in him. Then he starts putting the beat together. And that's just how it started, basically. How many cuts from the first eight hours of that session? You know, how many set, like, did any of the other songs come out? I believe there was like one song that we worked on. I think it was the song on his album. On Big Baby Drum, his debut album. It was called Monticello Ave. We worked on that song. We worked on like four or five songs that day, just like adding things, finishing stuff. And then broccoli just happened. Did you know when you were done with it? You know, here you are, like, probably trying to flex a little bit throughout the other sessions. Then here comes this piano part. Did you feel like, man, that's a smash. Honestly, I didn't know what was going on. It happened so fast, it was like a blur. Like, you know, once the piano and the drums were on there, drum came back up to me and was frantically yelling this melody to me. And I was like, like, I didn't even really think about it, but my god or somebody took my hand and just put it to a flute sound on my keyboard. And I played his melody on the flute. And Yadi was sitting in the corner and gave us like this nod and was like, that's it. Did his verse in 20 minutes, then drum gets on the mic and starts wrapping about broccoli, about a vegetable, about rolling up weed and like, making it all happen. And I'm like, listening to him do it. And I'm like, literally like, what is going on? Like, is this seriously happening? And the night we left the session, I remember playing it back in the car with my friend. And I was like, there's something here. I don't know if this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever made. Or if this is like one of the hardest songs ever. And I would play it for friends and play it for, you know, my homies. And they would be like, yo, this is a smash. Like, you have like a banger. Like, this is crazy. And I was like, okay, like, let's hope so. Do you find yourself after a situation like that trying to replicate the situation that created it? You know, it's funny because a lot of people, I feel like after that song came out, I was sort of hearing little broccoli's, like little like sort of, you know, inspirations or renditions that were, you know, songs that literally had like a plucky, bouncy, like, key sound and would literally be featuring Liliati. Like, I spy and I think Macklemore had a song called like, Marmalade or something and that had Yadi on it. And I was like, and people were hitting me up like, yo, do you have any more like ideas like this? And it kind of felt like, you know, I think somehow it made the flute kind of come back in like a cool way because I started hearing other songs like, like, there was like that Drake song Portland that had like a little flute in it. There's like a bunch of, I was just hearing flutes everywhere. And I'm not saying I'm responsible for it, but I'm like, maybe it's a timing thing or I felt kind of cool actually to be like, yeah, like, I guess people really like that, but it's really hard to replicate that exact moment in time. What's something that you played on but didn't really get credit for? Well, there is an album called "Depimba Butterfly" by Kendrick Lamar. And basically, what happened was I was working with one of my close friends, Wes, who's like sort of, you know, the guitar version of what I do. So he was guitar, I was keys. And we had been brought into work with a producer that was working on a project of his own. So we go to this guy's studio. This is around like 2013, 2014. So like after the Drey, like during after the Drey days, the Dr. Drey of days I was involved in. We went to this guy's studio for a few weeks in L.A. And we were making like these crazy like kind of acid jazz, really like experimental records. And we were like, okay, cool, like we did that. We were there for two weeks. We made some beats. We run into the guy at a show. And he's like, oh, he's like, yo, I got to pay you guys for that session. And we didn't know like at the time, like I said, I didn't know about publishing. I didn't know about producer. I didn't know about anything. Just like, how do you get paid? But I was like, oh, this is how we get paid. You run into the guy and he wants to pay you. So he invites us back to the studio. And basically has us, you know, he's like this for all the beats we made for my project. He's like, we're gonna, we're gonna have you sign this thing. And the paper said something along the lines that like you can't collect royalties. You can't collect publishing on these songs. And I'm like, these are weird ass beats anyway. These are like things that are never gonna be on the radio or whatever. And we were just like, cool. So he gave us like $2,000 cash each. And we were like, yo, we made it. You know what I mean? Like, yo, like look at this. Like, we got like paid cash for beats. Like, this is sick. Then fast forward about a year later. I have a butterfly comes out. Everyone's been talking about this album. So I'm like, comes out. out, you know, put on Spotify, whatever, and like listening to the album. And there's a song called For Sale. And literally, it was one of the beats that we made where like all these keys are coming in and all these, and I'm like, wait a second, that's us. So I call my friend Wes kind of freaking out. Like, yo, like, do you hear this? And then we keep playing the track list. And then there's a song called You with a question mark. And the beginning of that song is also one of the beats we did. So two of the beats that we did with this guy end up on this album. And we're like looking through the credits, not even musician credit, nothing. So it was like, we basically got robbed. And it was like heartbreaking and also exciting at the same time, because it was like, if our shit is good enough to be used on this, that must mean we're good. Like, that must mean something. So I was trying to look at it in a positive light. But I was also like, I don't want to be part of this industry. I don't want to be like, this is messed up. Like, people are going to be winning Grammys. People are going to be making money off of our hard work that we wrote and produced. These are our sounds. These are our, you know, this is like our creation. So basically, I just sort of used that opportunity to post. I was like on it and went on Instagram and I was like, yo, I, you know, I worked on these songs on to pin the butterfly and that caught the attention of who Greg Katz, who is now my manager and has been my manager since the beginning of my career. And he sort of gave me the ropes and was like, hey, like I'm going to explain to you how this works. I know you're upset. I know you probably want to, you know, go after this or try and like, you know, claim stuff on it. But he's like, I think the best thing you can do is just keep working, keep working hard and funny enough, like Greg introduced me to Imad, who introduced me to drum, brought me to a studio session where drum was at. And that's how I met drum. And that's how broccoli happens. So a really bad thing turned into something really good because I kind of just kept my head down and kept working. Why is the advice not to go after credit? I think there's something about the hip hop world where lawsuits, it's kind of like, it feels like you kind of like don't want to be that guy, you know what I mean? Like you could, but I feel like a lot of people, especially at that time, and especially since I had the history with Dre, and like that was like an aftermath in her scope release, he's like, it's going to get back to Dre. It's going to get back to Kendrick. It's going to get to all these people. They're going to see your name. They're not going to know what really happened. They're not going to be like, well, what's his story? They're going to be like, screw this guy. Like, you know, I'm not speaking for anyone, but saying like in general, you're just like, you see, you know, I've been a part of songs where like people come out of the woodwork and they're like, this guy is claiming he, that's his 808 pattern or this guy is claiming this and you're just like, I don't even want to think about it because you weren't there, you know, so the one thing that's specific to instrumentalist that's different than if you were just a songwriter is there are unions. Right. So like AFM could be like, hey, he played on this and we're going to make sure that we collect neighboring rights and some of this other stuff without having it go through like a whole thing. I'm going to find you some money. The predatory part of the music business gives it a bad name and I believe in the good of the business and we can be a generation of people who watch each other's backs and actually like care for each other. Yeah. Because in the end, I'd rather be in your shoes than any, you know, right. It worked out this way for a reason and, you know, one really bad situation, which is another thing of advice I would give to people is is can turn into a million good situations if you really try to look at it the right way and be like, okay, like, yeah, your music did get stolen. You're on them, you know, you're on like the masters of the song. You're on like your chords and your writing is on this song. But, you know, I tell the story to so many people, I've told it to so many people and they're like, oh, you think that's bad. Like, wait till you hear, you know, and I know you've had so many amazing people on this on this, you know, on this show and like, I just so many of the big producers that I've talked to, it's like, and those were actual hits too. Like, I'm not saying, you know, those songs that I that we worked on weren't like, they didn't end up becoming like big, charting songs, but they were part of a monumental album that was like a part of hip hop history, a part of history in general. So it knows it feels good to know that like deep down, I am a part of that culture and that kind of made me realize like me and my friend that worked on it like we are involved in this. And we always know that it's like our little secret. Our little like thing that we share and it's like moving forward. You know, I actually ended up meeting Kendrick in a session because I was working with Baby Keem and randomly Kendrick showed up and just came into the room. But I didn't mention it to him. I never would because it was just like it's so far in the past that, you know, look at where it look at where these situations got me to now. And I'm so grateful that it happened the way it did. So shout out to the universe or whatever put that scenario together. We kind of jumped all the way to, no, that's a good thing. We jumped to 2016, but the first time you played a piano was a lot earlier than that. So you're from LA. You're a valley native. I am born and raised. What are your parents like? My parents are very special people. My mother is from Buenos Aires, from Argentina. And my dad is from Lebanon. I grew up in Beirut. And they met in the early 80s at a gas station. What? Yeah. And my dad was working at a gas station and my mom and her sister, my aunt, pulled up to the gas station. My dad saw my mom and like went up to her car and started like, you know, wiping the windshield and pumping the gas for her and like giving her a smile. And they just like, linked up and like, they couldn't speak English either. Like my dad spoke Arabic. My mom spoke Spanish and they all they knew was like, hi. The name Roj. Explain why Roj. Well, I asked my dad and I was like, why, you know, I'm just curious, why did you give me, you know, I love my name, of course, but why did you give me a name that's so hard to pronounce and spell and understand. And he was like, my mom basically told me the story that, you know, when she had me, they were, you know, they were thinking about names. And I guess he was very set on, I want to name him Roj. I want him to be famous one day, you know, I want. My dad is actually, you know, not professionally, but he's an incredible musician. He's a singer. He sings in Arabic and he plays a derbake, which is like the lap drum. And, you know, I think his dream was really to be a musician. And I guess he sort of passed that torch to me like, I want you to do this, you know. And he's also the reason I got into music. Tell me that journey. You have siblings too. So, you know, what is the musical journey of somebody who's, grows up in a family that's so international? Well, my, I have four younger sisters and, yeah, at the time that I started playing piano, I only had one younger sister. I was seven and she was four. Her name's Chanel. And literally one day I'm, I walked down the stairs and I see like two or three dudes moving an upright piano into my living room. And I'm like, looking at my parents, looking at my dad, I'm like, Hey, what, what is this dad? He was like, Oh, I, I got you a piano. And I signed you and your sister up for lessons with the lady down the street piano. Were you naturally good at it? Or was it something you had to work at? I had zero interest in learning how to read music or learning music theory. I thought that part of the lesson was always so boring. I would always space out. But I had a really, really good natural technique and muscle memory. So the way that I would learn pieces was I would just copy my teacher's hands. And we would work on like four to eight measures of music a week. And I would just master that little part of it. And by four or five weeks in, we had a full like little piece learned. And over time, I just got a little bit better at like, you know, being able to play a little bit more difficult pieces. But I would just watch your hands and be like, Oh, she's moving like this. I wouldn't even really know what notes I'm playing. And then as I got older into my teenage years, I was like, Oh, I actually started realizing like, Oh, C major 7 is really cool. Or oh, this is like, you know, keys and signatures and things like that. Did you find that interesting once you started learning it? Or did you find it to be a chore? I actually found it really interesting because around the time I was about 15 or 16, I discovered Bill Evans, the music of Bill Evans. Yeah. And you know, I think it was, I forget the name of the piece, but it's like, uh, It's like a theme. It's like, um I forget. It's like it was like this little piece. He plays the same like it's like the bass notes. Obviously it sounds better on a piano. But it's these it's like a C or a G and a C and then these C major seven and a D minor seven chord. He just basically solos over the whole thing. But I was very fascinated with the textures of the chords. So I picked up a jazz theory book and I learned sort of the major sevens the minor sevens the diminished things and I started inverting them and I was like wow it's crazy that there's like you could play C major seven in like 10 different ways and that sort of began to open me up to just the entire world of possibilities musically. Yeah it's really interesting because to go from kind of regular piano lessons if you will to getting into jazz so much of jazz is about inversions and and this gets really dorky so you know for those who are interested in this you know what makes what makes seemingly really simple chords interesting are how you like that inversions like can you explain can you show a little bit of like what we're talking about. I mean I think you know obviously a chord is it's it's like choral it's like voices you know what I mean so you have at least two notes but you can put up to you know like you could put up to like however many notes you want in there but the the basic way was kind of like if I have you know a C major seven which is just C you know C major triads C D G then you have the B on top you know doing something as simple as putting the base note lower already gives it a little more space and breathing room or if you move it up here it kind of gives it another it's still the same chord but it gives it like another color or flavor rather and then you can even add a nine in there at a D and you know so I used to kind of float around and kind of just be fascinated with just arpeggiating the chord and then as I got a little more into advanced theory and things like that I'm like oh wow you can really like you could put like any note of the chord anywhere you want so if I took if I let's say I took the second note which is E and put that in the bottom and put the order as E C G B it sounds different but it's still C major seven but it's just got a completely different texture to it you know and I feel like voicings and things like that are really important when you're especially when you're working with songwriters and or even just writing ballads or whatever it is it's like where you put the chord where you put the voices is really going to sort of affect the performance and give room or takes room away from you know it's because you know a lot of singer songwriters kind of just know the basics of piano like hey like which is all you need to write a good song you know playing like you know all you need is like to learn to try and move around but if you learn how to keep all the voices sort of close together it's a little bit more like I guess it's it's just a better way to give that space to the singer writer or whatever when you get involved when you get excited about hip-hop I feel like I was exposed early to you know like Dr. Dre and I think still Dre and the 2001 album came out when I was like 11 or 12 and I remember I mean my parents used to be very strict about you can't listen to anything parental advisory no rap none of that so I'd go to friends houses and their parents didn't give a shit they were like oh yeah like you know Eminem blasting and like Cypress Hill and all this you know Limp Biscuit and I I loved it I was like you know I was really like it was just the music of that time but as I got older I think it was my second year in college I had I went to school for music so I had some some friends that were I had this one friend that was an opera singer he was studying opera I was studying piano but he was like super into just you know like a little little Wayne and Drake and Nicki Minaj and like just really good rapper really good hip-hop and he would always be playing me stuff and he sort of gave me like you know I asked him one day I was like yeah I wonder who's playing like all the keys on these songs like who's playing this riff on still Drake who's playing this uh the keys on these you know and then that's when I discovered Scott Storch and like Ferrell and you know the Neptune's and and um my calisando my calisando I started look I I went to tower records and bought the like when they were still selling CDs what what a time but I would read I would just nerd out and read all the linear notes and I'm like Scott Storch Scott storage my calisando my and I'm just like trying to find out everything I know about these guys because it sort of came to me when I was in college like okay somebody's job is to walk in the room and make the most fire most amazing riff ever and it was sort of that time that I really started digging in like learning more about like Timberland and Ryan Leslie and like I watched the youtube video of Ryan Leslie making those beats it was like the most iconic thing and I was like this is this guy's job like this is what he does he just walks in there playing all these chords all these major seven minor sevens whatever all the chords that I love and putting it together and I sort of just you know develop this fascination and obsession with like with hip hop and like wanting to be a producer wanting to be just involved somehow not even like even know what songwriting or publishing or anything was I was just like I want to be a part of that somehow there's this quote I saw Steve Jobs talking this is about hiring people but he's something I've never been able to teach someone to work hard who doesn't want to work hard you know some version of that yeah and and there's like I feel that way about people who work in in who who love songwriting they're there people want to be famous then there are people who are obsessed with oh I want to know who's writing on these songs yes how it's done I want to learn about the music theory I want to like how to record it and like you that person is someone that is that someone you can see having a career right the person who's like you know wants to be in the room that's fine that's a separate thing but the person who's like obsessed with you know who's producing it who's playing the keys who's doing that stuff at that age you find that person now and you can bet that person will figure it out when they're you know oh yeah in their 30s and they're like they've been doing it at that point for 15 years well I think it's sort of stemmed from because I was studying classical piano I was in school to be a concert pianist essentially and my professor at the time who was a great teacher he really like changed my whole approach to technique and piano playing but I would play like a crazy piece by Franz Liszt for him or by Chopin and the first thing he would tell me is like what do you know about this piece what do you know about what Liszt was going through in his life at the time and I was like I don't know and he's like we'll go read about it and come back to me next week and very cool yeah so you know all these pieces and all these compositions have such deep you know meaning behind them and stories and these composers were you know not normal people like you if you really like look into the life of Mozart or Liszt or Rockmont and off they really all went through so much and each piece is like you know a timestamp of what they were like going through whether it was like their country was going through a revolution or they were having some kind of insane affair or some kind of you know inspired by some literature so I was very fascinated with that and I think that fascination bled into my love for hip hop and being like okay like who's today's version of that what are they going through how did they start what was their journey like so yeah Franz Liszt things interesting because you know Lisztomania which is a song that well what's that group called from the the French group you know I'm talking about just looking at oh Phoenix Phoenix there yeah yeah yeah yeah and you know Lisztomania is like what I you know Barry Manila went through in the 70s what what Bieber went through in the 2000s like he was so famous he was this tall handsome brilliant piano player who would tour around Europe and was like a long line of women like this guy was like a massive womanizer and like I think it's it's one of those things where if you don't know the music history around these these people then you don't like It's one of the things that bothers, well, we'll get an interpolation in a bit. But like that whole era, you know, even after that, 50 years after that, when this is again, really dorky, but like when Revell and Tchaikovsky are taking the same refrain and playing off each other, and it was like an homage to each other, it wasn't like you're ripping me off, and so I'm ripping, instead it was like, it was like this love amongst musicians and the support, and not like a litigious, you know, this is pretty close to what I wrote one day, so it was a matter of incentives, like, oh cool, this is what I wrote, like I love it, you're like, thank you, you know? - It was respect. - It was also a time when music wasn't recorded, so. - Right, I mean, if you wanted to hear the music back, then you had to learn it, or somehow find out when Beethoven was performing, or Liszt was performing and travel, I don't know how they did that, like newsletters or whatever, but what a lot of people don't know is that Liszt actually invented the recital. - What? - He did. - I didn't know that. - He was one of the first people to be, he was the first performer to be like, I'm gonna play a bunch of my own stuff, and I'm also gonna throw in a little Beethoven, I'm gonna throw in one of my homies's works. Oh yeah, showpan, that's my boy. He just wrote this nocturn, I'm gonna throw that in there too, and he would go and, you know, he was like, like you said, the big celebrity, the rock star of his time, and women would fight over his cigar butts, or the gloves he would throw into the audience after, and literally they would contemplate suicide after seeing an experiencing Liszt, and be like that was probably the height of their, 'cause he was such an electrifying guy and performer, but he coined the recital, the coined the term, and that's just something in San, I'm like, you invented the recital, who are you? - There was a part of a music history book, I read when I was in college, and it was like the first page of this music history book, and it talked about standing outside of a house, and listening to somebody playing piano inside, and it described how beautiful was to listen to this music, and what you realize is like, if before the gramophone, before Edison creates, you know, what we think of as a record player, or wax, or whatever, the only time you ever heard music is if you played it. That there was no, there was no, you know, we were so used to music being in cars, which obviously didn't exist at the time, elevators at restaurants, or whatever, and you can compartmentalize this audio magic of recorded music, but in most of history, you had to be able to play music, to hear music, or you knew somebody you played it, but if you, you know, you'd be so fortunate to walk by a house where someone was practicing inside. - Right. - Otherwise it was silent. - Yeah. - The world was silent. - That's-- - You heard wind. - That's crazy, that's crazy to think about. - You know, like, we're in an industry that's so nascent, and such a baby industry, and we think of it as like the way things always have been, but it hasn't. This got, again, I think a little far from where we are in hip hop, but I think the idea is like we've progressed from, you know, Beethoven's fifth, and, you know, I think those first recordings are like Olding, Zine, and Jingle Bells, and like-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He's like old 19th century, and earlier records were the first things that were recorded, and only a hundred years after that, less than a hundred years after that, you have like NWA. - Right. - Right. - Like less than a hundred years, you go from people, you know, less than 70 years from like, you know, Louis Armstrong to NWA. So it's like, where we're at now, it's still so baby. You know, trying to explain hip hop to your parents, and that you wanna get further into that, was that a weird conversation? - Oh, it was, were they disappointed? - It was not a good time. (laughs) My mom sort of has always been like supportive of what I've wanted to do. My dad, you know, like most Middle Eastern parents are kind of like, you know, are you gonna be a doctor or are you gonna be a lawyer? And initially, my interest in wanting to be a concept or pianist was something that my dad supported, and he sat me down outside, and I was like, like, I wanna, like, I found out you can go to school and learn how to do this, 'cause I really got more into, around the same time I got into the music theory in jazz, I sort of refell in love with classical to an extent where I was like, you know, I remember watching the movie The Pianist, and there's that scene at the end where he's playing the show pan first ballad in G minor, and it gives this dramatic performance in the guard like saves his life or like lets him live. It's like this whole thing, but I heard that piece, and I was like, I just wanna learn that piece. So I learned the whole thing, and it was definitely too advanced for me, but I just spent an entire month practicing like 12 hours a day, even when my family was asleep, I put the mute pedal on the piano, and I would just quietly like, like, again, master those eight to 10 measures a day, and by like a few months I had the entire piece under my fingers, and then I ended up like auditioning for some music schools, Juilliard, Manhattan School of Music. I got rejected by all of them, except for San Francisco Conservatory, so I got a scholarship there, and my dad sat me down outside, he's like, look, I'm gonna help support you, I'm gonna help you, you know, go to school, but you have to be the absolute best. Like, I want you to be the best. I'm not gonna settle for anything else, otherwise, I'm taking you out of that school, I'm not gonna help you anymore, and so I had his support, and obviously, you know, I'm in school, I'm in college, I start listening to rap, I start listening to, you know, falling in love with hip hop, and I sort of started coming back to LA a lot to like, play shows with groups and like, go to the studio, and my dad was kind of like, what are you doing? Like, why are you out so late? You should be practicing right now, you've got exams, and you've got concert coming up, and this and that, and when I finished school, I sat down and talked with him, and was like, listen, I wanna come back to LA for a little while, and just kinda like, figure out what's going on, because there's something really exciting going on, I feel like there's something special happening with music, that's not classical music, and he, you know, I was like playing in groups with rappers, and like, working in the studio lay, and he sort of caught onto it, and he did not support it. He was like, I think at one point he told me to just move out of the house, because of my lifestyle, I was just always out, so two, three in the morning, like, you know, I'm in the studio, or I'm hanging around people, I'm at shows, I'm doing this, and. - Were there other parts of your life that were not, you know, was there drinking drugs, anything like that, that got. - Yeah, there was, you know, I think he found like a, like a little, you know, the little weed canister thing, I think I just like tossed it in the trash at my parents' house, and like, he'd found it, and was like, that's it, like, I want you out of here. So I had to figure it out, and it sort of taught me, like, at the time that I was, you know, trying to make my name and like, working with people, and going. - What year is this? - This is like 2011, yeah, beginning of 2011, my day job was a piano teacher. So I was teaching piano to kids, and you know, teenagers, some adults, I had like, 20 to 25 students a week. So I was teaching, you know, it was good money, it was like direct money, and on the side, I'd be doing like jazz gigs, anything that was like, hey, we need an accompanist to play, and like anything that involved the piano or music to make some money, that's what I was doing. But like, after all that stuff was done at night, I'd be going to the studio, I'd be linking up with friends, I'd be like, any opportunity I got, I would, you know, just to be involved with, either being in the studio or playing live, I just was there, and my dad was not about it because he's like, where's the money? Like, where is the, like, you know, that, where's the sustainability in this? Like, how are you gonna have a future? Is there sustainability for a piano player that isn't working in pop or hip-hop? Honestly, it's tough to say, I think nowadays, to one of the most difficult things you can achieve is to become like a professional concert pianist that makes a living, getting paid, playing concerts and concertos and things like that. It's like, the amount of repertoire you have to know, by heart, is very demanding. It's technically physically demanding. I think it's damn near impossible to make a really good living as just a piano player, which is something I started realizing at the end of college. I was like, most of these people are just gonna be teachers and no offense to people that do that because that was my path at one point. I wanted to be a professor and teach piano on a university or whatever, but I just even And the faculty at my school saw my grade slipping and they realized he looks like he got bigger fish to fry. So we'll just pass you and just go back to LA and do your thing. - So from 2011 to 2016 and broccoli, what's the version? How do you get from, okay, I'm about to get kicked out of the house and doing all this other stuff to find yourself in the room, some of these other rooms. Well, it really started in 2013, was the year I met a singer, I was playing, I was rehearsing at the guitar center studios when they used to have the GC studio thing. And I had like a jazz group that I was rehearsing for a show with and this girl walks in and she was like, "You guys sound really good." Like, are any of you here a producer? 'Cause I'm a singer and I'm looking for someone to produce my album and I was like, "I'm a producer." Like, yeah, I could do your album for you and I've never done anyone's album or anything or written songs like that with somebody and I've written songs but not full hook, verse, bridge with somebody like her. So we ended up working together and we made a small EP. We did a few shows and she happened to be married to this artist, this rapper, Stat Quo who I guess, he used to be signed over to Dre and Eminem and he's still very active in the music industry and like management and stuff like that. But he was like, "Hey, I love the work that you've done with my wife." Like, I'd love to introduce it to some people that work for Dr. Dre and do stuff like that and he basically introduced me to a guy named Melman, a very special guy named Melman who was Dr. Dre's sort of right hand guy and did a lot of the majority of the 2001 album with Dre, a lot of stuff for Eminem, Mary J. He was a huge part of that sound. So Melman became my mentor and I started, Stat basically put me in there and was like, you guys are gonna just make beats together and just work with him and kind of just do what he says. And I slowly realized over time that he's also the same person that sort of, you know, trained or worked with Mike Elizondo and Scott Storch in that same light. They were all the ones that made all those riffs and things. So he became my like Mr. Miyagi, you know? - Crazy. - Yeah. - Do you still talk to him? - I haven't talked to him or seen him in a while, but the time we spent together was definitely, it was, you know, he in like many ways. I sort of got like hazed and yeah, it was like a very just interesting situation. So when I first met him, the first day that we worked together, he basically, you know, took me out of the studio and was like, we're gonna take a little trip and he just tells me to drive and I'm like driving and I'm like, where's this guy taking me and we end up stopping at this place called Desjavu in North Hollywood and it's actually a strip club. And I'm like, it's like, you know, it's like Tuesday at like noon, like what are we doing in a strip club? And I guess that was just sort of the thing that he did before session. So I was like, you know, not having any idea what's going on. We walk into the strip club, we leave and then we get back to the studio at like 2 p.m. we set up and we start making beats. So, you know, I would essentially like make beats with him in the daytime and do errands for him sometimes. Like, hey, can you run to the store and, you know, pick up some stuff for me? Can you drop me off here? Can you do this? Can you bring me food? Can you like, you know, so whatever it was, it was like, I just, whatever he called and needed for me, I just showed up and did it. And then we would end up making music together. And he was very strict and very particular about the sounds that he wanted me to use. And he showed me so much about sampling and he used an MPC to make his beats. So I would record his MPC into my laptop. And he had this formula where he would have some kind of insane or obscure sample. You know, it would be anything from like Cat Williams telling a joke with like a drum beat on it. And I'm like, how did you even find a tempo to that? To like, you know, weather report or D'Angelo or Stevie Wonder or he would just sample all this incredible music. So I was, he was sort of nurturing my mind and like exposing me to sonics and sounds and situations. And I'm like, how am I supposed to play on something that already has music on it. So it was already a really big challenge for me being like, I thought I was going to go in there and just, you know, make riffs and do that. But it was like, no, there was obstacles at every point. And, you know, if I played like a whack bass line or if I played something that wasn't good, he would just, you know, throw his hand like that and sometimes turn off the computer or tell me to leave or tell me to come back when I have something better. And I never wanted to be repeated the same criticism again. So I would always come back a little bit more polished and refined the next day. - Did you ever write any hits that you weren't credited on? - I, yes, actually, there's, well, the sort of, there's a story intertwined with this one, but basically what happened was he surprised me one day and was like, hey, tonight we're gonna end early, we're gonna end the session early, but I'm gonna need you to drop me off somewhere. He's like, it's a VIP strip club. And I was like, you know, I'll drop you off, but I'm good on like hanging out and doing all that. He's like, no problem. So we're driving through Sherman Oaks and he's like, you know, a lot of cool stuff goes on around here. And I'm like, I guess it's Sherman Oaks, I don't really know what he means by that. And he pulls up to this building, this like unmarked gray building. And it's like, we get out of the car, the gate starts opening and these two security guards are running from each side of the alley, like towards the car and Melman gets out of the car and kind of like waves them down and they slow down, realizing it was him, we get into the building and I'm like, where are we? You know, he's like strip club. And we walk into the, we walk into the building. There's like a guy at a front desk and I don't know what's going on. It's all like plushed out, crazy. Nice artwork, nice couches and, you know, the door opens and it's Dr. Dre mixing a song on the SSL at his studio and I'm like looking at Melman, he's looking at me, like giving me kind of like that nod. And Dre looks at me and points to me and he's like, I heard you're nice on the keys. Like I'm going to put you to the test today and I'm literally like wearing pajamas. Like I'm wearing like a beanie and sweats, like I look like shit, like I didn't know I was going here so I had no, I didn't feel like I was presentable but it caught me off guard and that's the moment that I met Dr. Dre and we ended up working on a track that night and changed my life. - That's wild. - Yeah. We jumped to broccoli that we just talked about. When, how do you balance the credibility of being able to play, you know, showpan and, and then having like your biggest song at that point be major triaths? - It's interesting because I feel like that maybe might have pissed a few people off, like colleagues of classical music, like people, maybe some professors or maybe some people that like, you know, knew me in that stage of like wow, like that's what you have to offer the world. You know, coming from that world it's sort of like, I wouldn't say frowned upon, but it's actually funny because a friend of mine that was working with us in drum, he was one of drums like main producers at the time and my friend Gabe Niles and he was like, you know, there's something really special about the way you play that flute in broccoli. He's like, it's very like Mozartian, you know? And I thought about it and I'm like, yeah, there is a little bit of that like trill in there. There is a little bit of that. So aside from like the really simple chords, I feel like the melody of the flute sort of gave it this, you know, little taste of maybe Mozart or maybe classical technique. But it's actually really funny to think that I spent years of my life suffering and almost hurting myself, like, injuring myself, learning how to play like them, a Fisto Waltz by List or Prokofi of Spiano Concerto No. 1, which are like knucklebusters. And then like the first big song, my first big check was literally, and I just, I don't know how it happens. What is your dad say? Was that a moment of your dad being like, you know? - You know what's really funny is my dad actually, I remember I heard broccoli for the first time on the radio like I put power 106 on I was like in my car and I was like Holy shit like that's me. I did that, you know like That's me playing and it's on the radio and people in the world can hear it and I called my dad and I was like Dad dad dad I just heard broccoli on the radio and he was like yeah, he's like I heard that song. I heard those lyrics I Don't like that my last name is attached to a song like that. He was very just like, you know, he's he's like He he all growing up like you couldn't like cuss in the household. You couldn't say Bad words and he knows that that song has bad words and he heard it and he was very upset and it kind of like hurt me a little bit I was like what and I called my mom and she was like don't listen to him. You know, I'm so proud of you and then I think it was one day My dad at the store that he owns he had a customer walk in and he was playing it on his iPhone and my dad was like oh my god Like that's that's my son's music and I think he just had like this change of heart And he kind of like came around and was like you know getting your Arab dad to like Like hip-hop and be down with that shit is like one of the it's like one of the craziest things like to me It's a bigger accomplishment than making the song itself. I'm like He actually we I went on tour with drum In 2017 we did like a run of I was his MD for a few months So we did like a US tour in a Paris Shows in Paris and London and my dad actually like came out to the Paris show. He surprised me and There was like weed smoke everywhere. I was so worried. I was like oh my god dad like you know like and like I know you're out here You're gonna come to the show, but this is like not like the shows you go to and he was just like making jokes He's like oh there was a lot of broccoli like in the in the you know being smoked at the venue and he was like laughing and He was cool with drum. He met everybody and now like My dad just he's my biggest you know like he's the biggest champion of my music and what I do and he'll He'll like Jokingly like when sick on mode came out. He would always like come up to me and be like son is down freezing cold and I'm just like He's so cool. I love him so much NNPA is our lead sponsor yet again What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists There is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published a co-publish or a publish writer Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NNPA goes and fights for you They go to congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more That's what they do they fight for you and they fight for this podcast So thank you for fighting for songwriters NNPA. Thank you for fighting for us, too I've said this story before but my parents didn't get what I did until they could see a song in a karaoke book Right, and then tell like so they would go and they I would get them tickets to see Just you know arena shows. Yeah, and they would see this and it was almost like yeah But used to be on stage at the whiskey and he used to be like you used to play at the vibar room You know, and I'd be like you know, that's great like I sold Thousands of records these are like millions of records. It's a very different thing But then once they could see something where like somebody else in the building could be like hey my son wrote this That's when it became like a moment of like yeah pride bad at bad at love Which you did with some of our our podcast friends Tell me about the story of bad at love because this is like this jumps to a little more Probably more music that I think your parents would yeah could digest and still is like on the you know Forward thinking, but tell me about bad at love So I met ricky ricky read through One of my best friends in motor oil who's an amazing producer and songwriter and basically Yeah, I had some sessions where me and ricky were like cooking up and This was probably like two or three weeks after I had made broccoli, which was like early 2016 Yeah around that before it's but you did that before broccoli was ahead Yeah, it was like it was like There was like this three-week period or two-week period where I made I'd worked on broccoli What would become Skywalker what would become bad at love and what would become sick on mode? It was just like sessions like two to three sessions a day. So I was just going from You know working with drum then I'd go work with ricky read then I'd go to work with hip boy like the same night because I was just like That's all I wanted to do. I'm like I'm just gonna beat everywhere. I can you know, so basically like um I end up doing a session with ricky and I just got all these new keyboards and I got like a prophet aid and like this little Casio keyboard with like a like a toy Keyboard and I was in there kind of showing him The cool sounds of the prophet and I was like yeah, it's got like these really cool synths. So I started playing this like this little And I didn't even know he was recording it And he's like cool. He's like what else you got and like after that had that little rift I like sort of went on the Casio Added a few more sounds and He had a loop of it So that was just me sort of being like yeah, I got all these cool keyboards I think we cooked up some other ideas that day and then literally like a year later Um, I got a call from my manager Greg and he's like yo, so one of the Beats you made with ricky is now a halsey song that's going in our album and I was like what what what are you talking about? Which one like I don't even remember making anything for Specifically for her. So I guess what had happened was that he Brought that beat or that progression into the session with Justin trainer and her and He built the beat around that loop and they wrote the song to it and I wasn't I was there in spirit rather But it was like a very nice surprise You know, there's a lot of um There are people who produce reproduced songs that exist and those are producers in that way but You're one of you know, I think People think of like Omar Omar in the way that he plays guitar the way in the what you do with keys There's so many people in the the loop space and You're the the seed of the idea versus like the thing at the end What makes You know, how do people get into the loop game and can you explain what the loop game is To people who aren't familiar with that. I feel like It's you know Basically what you're what you're doing rather than being seen as like a session player or a musician Just because you come into the studio with an instrument a lot of people will automatically be like All right, he played keys on it, but it's like no when you're offering Sort of what is the nucleus of the song Which is you know going back to like Scott storage like when you hear the riff and still Dre when you hear that you know Like what is that song without that riff like I know Dre heard that riff and was like There's something there so I feel like providing something really strong melodically quarterly and I think You know sonnically like finding those sounds that really make the song You know hit different you know sometimes it could just be a piano or sometimes it's a flute or sometimes It's a crazy weird organ sound or a synth that you know pop up on I think you have to be really tasteful When you're making loops and I feel like Um, I didn't I never really became one of those guys that was like Oh, yeah, like I made a loop pack and I sent it to like 50 different people which a lot of people do and you can get a lot of I'm not know people that have gotten many hits that way and many cuts that way But I think I was sort of custom do it For people so like Ricky would hit me up and be like hey could you send me some stuff? I'm working with so and so I'd be like yeah Or hip-hop would be like I need some ideas. I would sort of hand-tailor ideas just for them It goes back to the list the thing you know like you kind of learn who you're writing for right so you can Gear towards those things you you learn what the story is a little bit. Yeah Yeah, that the loop game is interesting because I'm you know, I'm pretty loud about Song splits right and I'm where that should go and I think that there's a difference from a song That's written to a track right written two chords um That's different than what I'm referring to I think when uh When I think people who sort of are additive at the end of the game. Yeah feels different as far as songwriting versus production I think when you're starting with something that becomes You know broccoli without those chords is not broccoli, but it also wasn't they didn't give you a You know the chords and the you know the acapella and then you added made those chords at the end that that I feel like is a different order of things. Yeah. And it's just interesting to be part of the very few people who managed to, you know, there was this era when people would send out tracks that it sent it to, quote, top liners and they'd be like, man, this track is a hit. And you're like, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? It was a hit you didn't, you don't need me. Right. What am I doing? But like reality is like when you send out some of these loops, like, they sound hit-ish without the top line. It's also different in hip hop where melody is secondary to flow, if that makes sense. So like, the melody comes from the track, you know, in a different way. What did they, like, tell me about the loop for Skywalker. Tell me about how sicko mode, you know, all that era, like, how do those loops sound when they come when when he send those out? Well, it's really funny because, you know, drum, who's still one of my really close friends. He connected me with so many people. And, you know, he had been doing a session one day with happy Perez, who's a legend and also one of my homies. But basically, this is the first time I met him. So I'm like, walking in the studio, I'm about to have a session with drum and happy is about to leave. And he's like, "Yo, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, you're Roger. Like, I heard about you. Like, could you, like, do me a favor?" After you set up, just leave me some, like, some, some loops and some ideas to, you know, to mess with. So I had these guitar pedals and I hooked up my keyboard and I sort of just kind of played, like, just, like, kind of slowly played some arpeggios with this delay effect on it. And again, similar story to bad at love. It was, like, I think a year or something goes by and I get, like, an email from, from my manager and he's talking about, like, "Yo, there's a track that you did with happy Perez and Travis Scott's on. It's from Miguel." And it's called Skywalker. And I hear the song. I can hear, like, whatever demo of it is. And basically, happy had taken those arpeggios I played and made them into those little sprinkles you hear. So like, when he says, like, "splish" in the song, it's kind of like, I feel like that effect sort of gives it that, like, splish or that, like, kind of, like, wet-ish sound. And he kind of, you know, he just took my loop and worked it into the track somehow. So I'm grateful that he thought it was cool enough. Do you check up on, you know, you go in with these guys that you're checking up on these throughout the year? Or is it just sort of, like, good news and mailbox money when you hear about it? Those were good news and mailbox money. It was just, like, I just kind of forget about. I tried to just forget about things, like, "Okay, that was a day. That was music. Move on." Now, I feel like I've been a little more like, "Is that coming out?" You know, whatever happened to that one. You know, whatever happened to that one thing we did that one day. You know, like, any news on that, any movement on that. And before it was just, like, dude, just, just go, go, go. And same thing with sickle mode, you know, that was just a cook-up session that I did with Hitboy. One night showed up to Chalice and I was, like, set up in a small room near his studio. And basically, he was like, "Just make some ideas for me. I'll be in here working on drums and working on other stuff." And, you know, so I'm, like, going through sounds. And, you know, I made, like, two or three ideas. He came in and was like, "Okay, cool. You know, like, I'll come back." And then I stumbled upon this, and talk about, like, hitting the lottery. I feel like I just, I went through the contact factory library, which I had not actually opened before because I had some sounds in my library. And I just looked through this vintage toys section and there's a sound called "Ratman Wow." And I'm like, what is that? That sounds insane. Just by looking at the name. And I remember the first chord I played was this, like, E flat major chord. And it literally, like, shook me. Like, I played it and then, you know, the organ sound. It sounds like a cat meowing organ, like, kind of this really weird, obscure thing. And it was like, "Whoa." And then as soon as I played that, the next chord just something told me, like, "Keep your thumb on that E flat." And it gives it that special. And then I just kept going down. So I put it down. I found a tempo. I put it down. I threw a little bass in there. I threw some stuff on top of it. And I'm like, "Yo, like, check this out. Hip-Hor comes in. listens to, literally, listens to the idea on the headphones." Because there was no speakers in that room. I was like, it was like a little closet, like, just like vocal booth space. Because, you know, he didn't have the whole half of the studio at the time. It was just a room that night. And then he drops the headphones. I was like, "Send me that right now." Like, send me the files right now. Get him the files. Go in there. He starts putting this crazy drum beat to it. And there was actually another kid there at the time, like a songwriter. He, like, tried putting a hook on the beat. And it was completely different. And I guess he had sent, like, a few weeks later, like, he told me of that idea we made. Like, I forget what it was called. But it was like, he's like, it was the name of whatever the song the kid was trying to write to it. But he was like, I sent that idea to Jay-Z. And I think he has it. And basically, like, a year later. So he's like, "Yo, actually that idea became a song with Drake and Trav." And, like, they were gonna, like, paper it up just as a song with the two of them. And I was like, "Oh, sick." Like, a song with Travis Scott and Drake. Cool. And then a year goes by. And I'm like, "Yo, whatever happened to that, to that idea, to that Travis Scott Drake song?" He was like, I don't know. But I think that we have something on Astral World. He's like, I think we may have the intro. Because, you know, Trav, Travis was teasing this for so long. And you're reading about Astral World on Twitter and Instagram. And he's typing it up. And I was like, whatever. You know, okay. Like, I guess, whatever that means. And track list comes out. And I'm like, there's 16 songs on here. I wonder if we're on. I wonder which one it is. So the night Astral World comes out. I'm like, sifting through the songs. And suddenly I get to sickle mode. And I hear the organ. I hear the beat that we made. And it's like, literally my keys playing for like 25 seconds. And then Drake comes in and says, Astral. And I fucking lost it. I think I like teared up. I was freaking out. I was like, no, like, this is not happening. And then the funniest part was the beat starts, you know, and it's like 50 seconds in. And then the beat switches. And I was like, oh, I guess they only used, it's like a little 50 second interview. And I was like, sick. And then like two days later, it was like, no, no, no, to myself. I'm like, you idiot. It's three beats put together in one song. So I'm reading the credits. And I'm like, oh, shit. And there's samples in the in the song. There's like they sampled biggie. They sampled like, you know, a few other people. And I'm just like, okay, like, you know, there's how do they put three beats together? How did you know? And I was like, I guess this is what that is. It's just a kind of like a mini suite of of bangers, you know? And that's when I realized like, oh, I guess this is going to be maybe a little more difficult to figure out on the business end, but I'm glad to be a part of it. You know, I was credited as a producer, obviously, and a songwriter. And yeah, along with hip boy, so shout out to hip boy for, you know, making that play and doing that together, you know? Does it bother you to have, you know, to work on a song to do the thing? And then when you see it back that you don't have control, I mean, this is the songwriter play. Does it bother you to have no control over the outcome? It did bother me a little bit. I was also like, okay, like think of the positive things like this is one of the going to be a big song it's growing. People are like, I'm seeing videos of him performing it like at his shows and it's just like insane and it's playing on the radio. But I was a little, um, I was a little bit, I wouldn't say upset, but it was a little discouraging and like, damn, like, now I have to figure out business with all these other guys. There's like six other producers on the song. You guys figured out? We ended up figuring it out. And I'm still cool with, with all of them, you know, like me and hip-boy are still, you know, pretty close. We work together when we can. I'm cool with Ozzy, Take Keith. It's, it's so crazy. I mean, it's just an all-star Qbeats. Yeah, it's like, I was, yeah. And um, but the thing that made me happy was like, you are the idea that opens this up. Like, a lot of people were saying, like, you know, the organ is that that's the part that I, you know, really remember. And um, It had gone like, I think it's like 15 or 16 times platinum now and so crazy. Yeah, so at the end of the day, it's like, you know, we all figured it out. And I think for what it was, it was fair, considering, you know, there's two of the biggest artists on it. There's samples on samples, Sway Lee says like two words on it. And he's part of it and like, there's just little, you know, tricks and little, like kind of ear candy everywhere. And I think that's what makes it so special though. Yeah, it's a weird thing. It's like in that environment, it's a beautiful thing that everyone gets credited for making this piece of music together. On the other hand, it's a hard thing to just, you know, to understand why everyone gets listed as a songwriter or something that's, you know, and this is the debate, you know, what is a songwriter to you? What is a songwriter? I mean, it's like the most basic answer is, yes, somebody who writes the song, somebody who is writing the, you know, I think now the definition has sort of turned into, you know, people contributing to a song, but contributing to, you know, a song like that is made up of so many different little pieces. And I feel like, you know, you got 32 writers on there because the samples have samples in them. You sample Biggie saying, give me the loot, but give me the loot itself. Has another sample in it. So we had to cut in all those guys as well. A lot of, you know, deceased greats were like on that song. So you got to go through a stage and clearances and things like that. I mean, I wasn't really a part of that process, but I heard about it. And, but luckily, you know, we were able to get everything sorted. But I feel like in, to go back to your question, you know, if you put something, it's kind of a, it's kind of a strange thing to think about because I feel like ever since, you know, when you started seeing like, on like certain albums that like Kanye West did, when you start seeing for the first time, or whether there's like 10 producers on a song, I'm like, I've never really seen anything like that before because it was usually like, you know, produced by for real, produced by the Neptune, produced by Timberland, produced by one or, you know, maybe two people. And now to see, you know, to be fair, SICK-O-MOD only has six producers on it. So it's me, hip boy, Qbeats, Ozzy, and Take Heath. And I believe one other person. But it's, you know, I think in that case, everyone's contribution, whether it was, you know, an 808 or a hi-hat or, you know, one little word or one little phrase. I think in that scenario, it's somebody that has contributed something, you know, sonically to the song that makes it stand out. But I think there is a fine line between somebody that like, starts the idea. And then it's like, hey, this idea is done. Can you add some stuff to the end of it? That's definitely a different situation. Like, which I agree 100% with you on, like, it's, you know, like, when it comes to splits, when it comes to things like that, it can get a little tricky. But it's like, oh, he just came in at the end and did that. So, yeah, now everyone has to have a piece of the pie. I feel like it's, before it's like, oh, I hired, you know, so-and-so to come play guitar on this or someone to come do this. And I told them what to do and, you know, it can get, it can get tricky. But Drake's big. I mean, like, when, when Drake's, you know, laugh now cry later, that's like a, you know, a Grammy nominated song, yeah, that's like, are you starting to feel like, do you feel pressure? Because you're not really part of, you're, you're kind of, I feel like your career is like being this island that gets, maybe island is in that, like, you get to play in all the sandboxes, do you feel pressure to, what, what does it feel like to work in the Drake camp? Well, it's, it's just, I feel fortunate to have so many friends in this industry that I can actually consider friends that are just, you know, cool people and they happen to be involved with these incredible artists and particularly with laugh now cry later. That was something I did with Jira, who is one of my close friends and basically the first time we ever worked together was the day we made the beef for laugh now cry later. It was like, he was a friend of hit boys, he was kind of always in the studio and I know that he'd done stuff for party next door and Drake and he was kind of known for that. But we were actually working on Big Sean's album and we were working on the intro to his album. This was like June of 2020 and Big Sean's like, yo, you guys should like, you know, well, we're all here. Why don't you guys like make some beats, you know, and hip-boy was there too and hip-boy and Sean kind of like sat back and me and Jira started just messing around and when we came up with his beat, he pulled up the drums, I pulled up the horns and we did that and they, you know, Sean and hip-boy were kind of like, you know, making a song idea to it kind of jokingly, kind of whatever and Sean was like, yeah, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to figure that out later. And then I kind of like other things, I kind of forget about it. And then Jira calls me one night, like a week later and he's like, hey, that beat that we made, I need you to re-send the files because I actually sent it to Drake and I think he likes it. Are you send it to Drake's engineer and I'm like, okay, so I go back to computerists, I have the horns, I have the piano thing that I laid down saved, send it to him. Both goes by, I'm like, that was probably bullshit. Like, you know, when you hear people like, oh, you know, I'm going to send it to Drake or I'm going to send it to someone, it doesn't sound real. Even still to this day, sometimes it's like, is he even going to hear it? Is he even going to like it? And then Jira calls me again in about a month, I'm like, sitting at like cactus, like eating a burrito, like a breakfast burrito and he's just like, yo, like, remember that beat that I sent to Drake? I'm like, yeah, he's like, that's Drake's next single coming out tonight, little dorks on it. So much faster, though, that released from that, like these other ones that took years, that's like, whoa, that's, yeah. And I'm like, so fast. So, yeah, we got to get the lawyers, the talk and so and so and then, you know, Drake brought in some of his other guys to do their thing on it and like work on some of the drums and stuff. And the song came out that night, I saw the video and I was like, to have a song like that come out during COVID was crazy, but as, you know, the hits sort of kept piling up, I was like starting to feel like, okay, maybe you're like, here to stay and maybe you got to like find a way to keep doing this because when you do it, you're just like, you want more of it. You want to be able to be like, you can rely on me for this. It's a drug. It is in many ways and it can be an unhealthy drug at times. Mentally, you're just like, you go in the studio with the wrong intentions because like we said earlier, a lot of these things, you can't call, you can't be like, I didn't know I was going to do it that night. I didn't, I didn't make that beat and be like, shit, like that's, that's a hit. It's a beat, you know, let's talk about Kiss Me More. I think break, you know, being involved in the beginning of somebody's career, which we'll call this beat the beginning-ish part of Doja's like, you know, Ron. Yeah. Tell me about Kiss Me More, tell me about that try and you were saying earlier that it was meant to be slower than it was. Yeah. The funny part about that whole thing was that I met Yeti who I did Kiss Me More with and is one of my super close friends, but I met Yeti because Yeti's studio was where we made broccoli. So I made broccoli like the next day, this guy walks up to me with a beanie, a super long hair. He's like, hey, you're Roger, he's like, you know, I own the studio, I'm Yeti. He's like, you want to work with, if you have any time next week, I'm working with this girl, Doja Cat. Like, if you want to come in and this was like 2016, 2015, whatever, I think 2016, and I was like, sure, you know, I don't know much about her, but yeah, it sounds cool. Like, he just seemed like a cool guy. So that's when I met Amela, Doja Cat. And so I worked on her first album and we had been working together for a few years at that point. This was like 2020, I think Yeti hit me up and was like, you know, I'm about to go on this trip to Hawaii to work with Doja and some people, like, you know, do you have any time today? I'm going to come over and maybe we can make some ideas so I could bring with me for Doja. And I was like, yeah, cool. So he comes to my house and he gives me like sort of like a keyword. He's like, I think right now Doja is really into like anime music. And, you know, I grew up in a household with four younger sisters that all love. We all love, like, you know, Totoro and Studio JABLY spirited away. You know, Pokemon, like cowboy bebop, all that kind of stuff was like, you know, we love that growing up. So I kind of had a hint of like, you know, a lot of that music has sort of like a cute jazzy element to it. And we started making a few ideas and the second idea that we came up with was this progression, which was maybe the lower octave might be better. So that was about the tempo it was at. And yeah. And yet you put a beat to it and the beat was like, you know. like, you know, it was really slow. So it was like, it kind of sounded just completely different. And again, like we made three or four ideas that day. There wasn't anything to write home about. Like, yeah, you know, like we did something crazy. It was just like, here, take these. Hope she likes them and funny enough. About a year later, this is the funny thing about Yeti too. Like he'll call me and just, you know, I love him so much. He'll just call me and be like, Yeah, where's Jay? How are you? Like, how are you doing? Like, how's your family? How's everything? Like, he really like, we just, you know, he asked how I'm doing. And then like, it's almost like, he forgets to mention. He's like, Oh, by the way, dude, I forgot to tell you, like, Doja did a song to this beat that we made last year and it's like a, it's like a song about kissing. And it's really good. And I was like, I want to hear it. So he invites me to the studio. I hear the song and I'm like, you know, holy shit. Like, I remember this beat, but I don't remember it sounding like that. And he basically told me that he had a few sessions with her where he played that beat. The tempo, it was at the slower tempo that I, that I played earlier. She was like, nah, next one did it again, nah, next one. The third time, something told him to speed it up. So he took the same beat and just sped it up. And that's what gives it that sort of special little twang in the guitar. There's like a special kind of like, you know, sampledness to it. Like, I don't even know if that's a word. You know what I'm saying? It is the BPM difference from what you started with to where it ended up. I mean, if I could remember specifically, we're going from like, like literally it was like that slow to like, so whatever that is like, sound like it could be like 30 or 40 BPM or something like that. I mean, it's like a difference to a different song. But everything just like, you know, if the key changed and like everything went up a little bit and I think, you know, she heard that. He said and she was like, oh, I have a song. It's about kissing. And she, you know, sat there on her phone and, you know, she would write the song and like, just be sitting, writing it for like an hour, hour and a half and then just lay it down. And like, that's how when I worked with her in person, she just, I've seen her knockout two or three songs in a day. Yeah, done. Like hook, verse, adlibs, little funny shit that she says all in there, just perfect. And I'm like, who are you? I would like to be a co-writer on that song. Oh, man, a lot of people tell me, have told me like, I just want to let you know, I think kiss me more as one of the greatest riffs of all time. I think it's one of the best. It's like the perfect riff. And in many ways, going back to what we were talking about about jazz and chords and progressions, right? There's really nothing that's special behind it, chord progression wise other than. It's a two five one, then it goes to a four and maybe the little lockdown, which I think inspired. Can you kiss me more that little pause in the song? So yeah, I mean, like, I guess studying jazz really paid off, you know? You know, there's geniuses in simplicity. It just is, it's, genius comes out of, out of, you know, editing. It's not the, it's never the guy who can. I get the dizzy, Gillespie era of bebop and like, watch how fast I can play these notes. But I think the reason why Miles Davis is Miles Davis and Dizzy's Dizzy is because of simplicity. I think when it comes down to it, in the end, you want to be able to sing along to something. And it takes a lot to be able to play, you know, preludes and then choose to do a few chords that make sense and a walk down that's clean. Like that, that's, that takes, that takes those years of playing jazz to be able to play that simply. Either that or you're just like, you know, just quite not good enough to play jazz. But I think it's the other part. Being a co-executive producer on, on Jack Harlow's album is a different thing. You start taking on more of like the business role of everything, of the business of the whole arc of the album, you know, tell me about that experience, tell me about first class. While working with Jack, who's one of the greatest guys I know, he's, you know, shout out to him. That's, that's, we know we're still really close friends and, um, and he basically, I got a DM on Instagram just from him. Like this was around the time. I think it was just like what's pop in was really big and he was like, yo, I was like, yo, and he's like, I would love to work. I'm going to be in LA. So we basically, he invited me to the studio and there was a bunch of other producers there. And we all started jamming, making ideas. And as the weeks went on, the rooms got smaller and it ended up being like me, him, and Angel Lopez. And basically we sort of became, you know, he kind of looked at us and was like, I think this right here is the core team of what I want this album to be. So we were sort of, you know, in charge and responsible for like, you know, we were there damn near every day for about a year. And I'm talking like when people rent the studio from 4 p.m. to 4 a.m., it usually means they show up at like 7 p.m. and maybe end by like one or two. But Jack was there from four to four. Like on the dot, always on time, always, you know, so we had made a bunch of songs. And I remember that I remember the day he pulls up and, you know, he shares with Angel this list of songs that he wants to sample or like this list of samples that he wants to flip. And he's like, I love, you know, glamourous by Fergie. I think we should do something with this. And he sort of had the idea there and basically they're playing the song and we're kind of like struggling to find like sounds to go around it because it's just, you know, the G-L-A-M and a drumbeat. And I'm like, shit, I'm like trying to think to myself like when, at what point did I ever, you know, like work on anything similar to this or like work around a sample like this. And like suddenly it flashed back to the times where I was working with Melman. And I remember there was one day, we were working with this rapper. He's like, I got a friend coming in and he's an artist and his name is Boaz, B-O-A-Z. And he pulls up this sample of like, it's like Sesame Street or something and it's like these kids shouting the alphabet. And they're literally like, he flips it so it's that the kids are like, B-O-A-Z and it's like a bunch of kids screaming the alphabet and it's that and a drumbeat. And in my mind, I'm like, when the hell am I ever going to like have use for this kind of, you know, I'm like, so I try to come up with chords and baseline, we figured it out. And flash forward to, you know, that was like 2013 now we're in like 2021 and like, here I am sitting at the keyboard and there's G, L, A, M and a drumbeat and I'm like, oh shit, you've heard this before. You've dealt with this before so it's almost like he foreshadowed the future for me or something like, you got to be able to make a beat to anything. And it somehow all came together so basically, yeah, Jasper was there as well and Charlie Hanson was also there so it was like me, Angel, Charlie and Jasper all kind of like put together the pieces, you know, that we're missing and I was able to, you know, we added like that song is just so special because it and shout out also to Dougie who's a writer on that song as well. But we basically kind of worked around the sample, the way that Jack sort of just is so playful around the letters of it and makes the hook around that. It's like, it's one of like my favorite songs that I've ever made because it feels, you know, it's like a, it's like a big song but there's like a softness to it. There's like a sort of, you know, smoothness to it that you don't really get a lot of songs like that that are like, it's not really like in your face, but it's there. You know, it's there and I just think the way that we broke up the sections of the song like the first verse and the second verse have completely different like instrumentation and there's like a moving base like if you really pay attention to that song, there's all these little like Easter eggs and little things like that you'll hear production wise that are very different. So Jack is just one of the best, you know, artists and in many ways was like a producer on that song because he handpicked every single sound and every single drum sort of in the same way that Dr. Dre would work like when I was working with him, he would like that snare, not that kick, that kick, that chord and just be like this and this and I'm like seeing Jack do the same thing so you know in many ways. I saw the training that I had kind of come to life more than everyone I was working on this album because I'm like You're working with a guy that knows what he wants you're working with a guy that knows Sonics that knows samples that knows taste which is very much Jack and How do you figure out the publishing splits on a song like first class? Well, you get the the blessing of You know, I guess Fergie and polo to dawn and everyone who did that and we basically I think that was a lot more on the You know generation now on like you know DJ drama and Don cannon and those guys I think they have great, you know relationships with people and we're able to get that Figured out and we you know we were actually I think it was a it was a very fair good splits on that considering you know the sample took up A good chunk of it, but I think it was fair enough like considering for what it was it made sense When it turned out the way it did. I was like, okay. This is this is cool. You know, this is a huge song like I feel like Yeah, we didn't have any like worries about that one. So Yeah, thankfully everyone was Well behaved on on that song, you know appetite. Was it pretty big saw? Yes, that is that's that's a big one good job on that. Thank you. Thank you. Uh You know What's it like at this point to Get more nominations. What's it like to talk to your parents who helped you get through jazz training and then seeing Now understanding the journey What is what is it? What does it mean to you to have the success of appetite in a year like this? It means it means a lot. It it's the thing that sort of keeps me Going and keeps me motivated like you know and an appetite, you know APT was a song that we did in the room together with Rosie and you know circuit, Omer, Amy, T. Ron and Again, like not really knowing like what's going to happen or what's going on. It's kind of like There's a drinking game Being put into this hook and into this song like you know And for some funny reason, I always feel like I'm I'm always involved in these songs that have like a either a sort of strange structure or a strange sound or something interesting about it and I think the fact that it became what it did and and you know Bruno getting on there and making it this massive Worldwide hit like it's You know, it also taught me that sometimes Simpler is better like intentionally being simple and not like oh, you know turn it on the keyboard but like But yeah, like and I think Omer was a big help in You know that when circuit pulled up the drumbeat and Omer was kind of like you know like just do like stabs Just do like horn stabs. So I pulled up like the melatron and I'm like playing the little you know You know, we're like oh cool And then we you know together we kind of came up with the The little chords for the don't you want my like I want you and And it was like it happens so quickly and and you know she recorded the song and Um, I don't even know how she felt about it really like she wasn't like I think she was a bit unsure About like that being a real song to come out or whatever so again I forgot about it and ran into demile at Friends barbecue and then you know, I've known Bruno for a while because I had worked with him years ago on a project like around 2016 With an artist he had at the time so he was like in the room writing we knew who we knew each other and I was asking demile Like yeah, how's Bruno doing? He's like we were actually talking about you the other day Um, I think he's working on that song that you did with that rosy girl whether they the APT song and he was I was like Yeah, like he's like yeah, and he was kind of thinking like Should I get on this and yes, and I was like thinking in my head like that sounds Wild like I don't even know what to think of that. I didn't say anything to anybody. I was like that's cool If that is actually happening and then three months later get a call Hey check this out uh send me the bounce and I hear Bruno on it I hear like all the music we did like elevated to another level And I was like this I was like this sounds like it's gonna be the biggest song like ever And sure enough, you know, it was and I'm so grateful for it. Um, I feel really good. I feel grateful to to be in a position where I'm able to do work in all these different genres from a song like APT to a song like sicko mode It was song like laugh now cry later. It feels kind of crazy to look back and be like Damn, I've been a part of such different genres of music, but I think it's reminding me like To keep sort of you know, keep my head in my heart in the same place musically Just going with the right intentions to have fun and to like make something good and make something fire whatever it may be so What would you tell a younger kid who You tell a kid in the valley right now who's 16 year old version of you Um You know people are gonna tell you you're crazy people are gonna tell you you're not gonna make it people are gonna tell you that you can't You know make money playing uh Keys on tracks and you know, these are all things that I've been told like it's insane, but keep going work with your friends Find people that you can trust and that trust you and you know definitely like If something feels good Do it like if it feels like an artist you want to work with or a situation that you Naturally find yourself wanting to be a part of just keep working hard keep going Literally don't give up and people are gonna tell you you're crazy people are gonna tell you all sorts of things But you use that as fuel to keep pushing and you will find yourself eventually at the right place at the right time The right cord the right keyboard whatever it may be Well, thank you for doing this podcast. Thank you for having me uh, you know Everybody goes on their journey and does their thing But there's a There's a basic path that I think people take in LA which often ends up with people sort of writing aiming for the middle Yeah, and um What's so cool about your career is how Authentic you are to you and how that translates to so many records and how Man it those chords and sickle mode are not normal for pop or for right hip hop They're They're sophisticated but In that sophistication is is the The editing down is to just what what matters We're all just trying to do something unique and you're the uniqueness. You're that X factor on so many songs So it's just fun to watch What seems so simple and it's so hard to replicate And that's because you you write from such an honest place So it's There's a lot you know It's it's amazing man your career is so so unique And it just touches a lot of people man you billions and billions and billions of streams To you know to back up that too. So amazing work man. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Thank you for having me