Ep. 2475 - Sophie Cunningham Responds After a Co-Owner Attacks Her Fans

Well, let's say you ran a sports league and you had two choices in how to market that sports league. First choice, all American, fun, inspiring, generally normy. Second choice, militantly lesbian, trans, anti-white and the players bet on their own games. Which would you choose? Well, the NBA seems to be making its choice every single day. Yet another Dolby Goon NBA scandal today and it's precisely what you think it is. We'll get to all that. Plus Anthony Fauci taking the fifth Iran's economy collapsing and the best selling musical genre in America is country. This is the Ben Shapiro show. So I am an NBA fan. My son isn't even bigger NBA fan. Back in the 70s, we probably wouldn't have been NBA fans. Most people were not back in the 70s and there were a bunch of reasons for that. First off, the NBA was broadly perceived as a kind of thuggish, drug-infused league. They had no national TV coverage because of that perception. In 1977, a player named Kermit Washington for the LA Lakers nearly killed Rudy Tom Johnovich in the middle of a game by punching him in the face during a scrum. A fan assaulted the actual ref during the 1976 NBA finals. The ownership groups were totally mismanaged. The amount of blow and hookers waiting through the NBA in the 70s, extraordinary. The NBA was kind of plotting. They didn't have a three-point line, the ABA, which was its big competitor and had its own financial problems. They at least had three pointers and dunks. The NBA had serious problems, so the NBA decided to solve that problem. They did so with a bunch of measures. First, the Celtics drafted Larry Bird, Lakers drafted Magic Johnson, and then the entire league was built around them. They'd been huge, high wattage college stars, but of course, white and magic was of course black. The NBA also integrated the ABA. They essentially bought them out and took them along, and stars like Dr. J entered the NBA. And the NBA decided to change its style. They added the three-point line in 1979. By 1982, NBA games were now law. I've not taped a lead. And by 1983, the NBA had decided to pursue a pretty serious and hydrogyz policy to wipe out the cocaine problem. The NBA also decided to put serious focus on policing on and off-court violence and behavior. They were finding players and suspending them. And the NBA mostly decided to protect its stars. And of course, it still does, which is why a lot of people will complain that stars and the playoffs get all the calls. Now listen, this is how you build a league. That's what you do. Now, let's turn to the WNBA. So the WNBA is the subsidized little sister of the NBA. It has lost money every single year. It's been in existence. Ever, including this year, the NBA basically pays its bills. Its quality of play well, it ain't the dude. There's some of the all-star game highlights from this year in the WNBA. But it's not the only one that's been in the WNBA. It's not the only one that's been in the WNBA. Oh, I don't know. Oh, good Lord. Come on. What? You're two feet from the basket. How do you air ball a shot two feet from the basket? Okay. Honest goodness. There are men's suburban 40 plus basketball leagues that play better basketball than was played in the WNBA all-star game. And again, that'd be one thing. But its brand is even worse because the brand for the WNBA has become militant lesbians who are kind of like okay at basketball by female standards, certainly not by male standards. And are simultaneously obnoxiously insisting that the only reason people won't watch them is racism and sexism. Hey, that was the WNBA brand. I know. Golden stuff. Huge. And then the WNBA received a large scale gift like the greatest gift of all time, Caitlin Clark because Caitlin Clark was breaking records in college and her entry into the WNBA meant a spike in viewership in people actually giving a crap because she was good and she's still really good. Here's some Caitlin Clark highlights. Clark. Oh, what the fuck is this? Now Clark trying to make something happen. Behind the bat. That's the basket and get fabulous. Nice pass there. These are all good plays. Right. That's some beautiful pass. Caitlin did it. And of course you can shoot the lights out. Hey, so revenues are up and earnings are up and ratings are up basically because Caitlin Clark is in the league. But there is one problem for the WNBA. The league is still plagued by radical political leftism that has somehow become intertwund with the very character of the league. They basically let the character of the players in league dictates the character of the league. And so the players win incessantly about the fact that Caitlin Clark gets attention. Instead of them celebrating the fact that people are actually watching their kind of crappy games now, they just win about the fact that Caitlin Clark gets attention. They keep saying that she's not good or that the people who are following Caitlin Clark, they're only doing so because she's white and they're a bunch of racist. Now again, in the NBA, there are people who did this throughout Larry Bird's career. I believe Charles Barkley early on made some comments about Larry Bird. The difference is that the league number one rejected it. And number two, Larry Bird himself trash talked the living hell out of everybody and would own you if you tried to do this. But there are just some of the players who've been whining about Caitlin Clark, who is the person raising the salaries for everybody in the WNBA. We're circulating the same players over and over again that we're talking about the same 10. Easy foot, Caitlin Clark. What about a reek, what about Kelsey Mitch? We don't talk about these players enough. I saw that when Caitlin got hurt, nobody wanted to go to the game anymore. I was like, oh, Caitlin's not playing. I'm not interested in watching. I mean, welcome to sports where some people are stars and some people are not. There are a lot of underappreciated players in the NBA right now. People who are probably better than LeBron James, but you're not going to necessarily show up to the game if LeBron is in playing. There are probably centers where playing better offense than WNBA right now, but you're going to show up to the WNBA game because WNBA is a star. And now it's not just that they criticize Caitlin Clark. There's this tendency in the WNBA to continue continually manhandle Caitlin Clark. Again, the league needs to crack down on this because it's absurd. The tapes have become legion of various players basically beating up on Caitlin Clark. You can see there's a player going after Caitlin Clark's neck there to get up. Sometimes. And this is not rare unfortunately. There's a lot of tape just like this. And hook onto the hoop and people just space the dash in. And it for Clark. And draws the foul 1.6 she goes sprawling. Trying to slow her down, picking her up at big court. Trying to get the offensive foul call Seattle and all of a sudden. Again, some of these are offensive fouls and some of these are just getting camera. Second quarter long. Oh, that's on the rip through on the cut by power. I mean, up going or in the face. I'm not going to say each one of these is on purpose or racist or anything, but there is a large-scale trend of Caitlin Clark just getting randomly kind of manhandled. Okay, but here's the thing. Even that gave the WNBA an opportunity because it turns out that Caitlin Clark's team also has on it a very pretty forward named Sophie Cunningham. She also happens to be rather all American in her attitude and viewpoints. And so she has sort of become Caitlin Clark's protector on the court, which led to viral moments like this again, WNBA has some momentum here. This viral moment has become a meme all over the internet. This is Sophie Cunningham who is told by another player not to point at her. So she proceeded to point at her for the rest of time. I believe that Sophie Cunningham is still pointing at this player. So there's a there. There you've got it, right? This thing, right? And it just keeps going. It just keeps going. I mean, like again, one of the most hilarious things. This Sophie Cunningham, obviously she knows the cameras are on her. She knows exactly what she's doing. Right. This is just smart marketing, right? Smart PR. Hey, so yet another opportunity for the WNBA, right? Kind of wrong because it turns out Sophie Cunningham has the wrong kind of politics. Mainly she's kind of just a normie. In just a second, we'll get to the thing that got Sophie Cunningham in trouble with the trans radicals in just one second. But here is the thing. If you have phone service that is not pure talk, you are in trouble. Why? You're just paying too much. Pure talk is in a recent industry survey. The only wireless company to receive five stars in every single category coverage, support value data. You deserve five star wireless service. And now peer talk has an invitation just for you. Switch to peer talk for just 15 bucks a month for a limited time, any plan, including their top shelf on limited data plans, just 15 bucks a month for your first three months. No contract needed just an insanely low offer to switch to a top rated company. You know, you get five stars for support, a dedicated US customer service team. You know, you get five stars for value, save the average family of four over a thousand bucks a year versus big wireless. 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I'm not a very political person, but I do have beliefs. I have morals and I'll always stand on those and be true to who I am. And I think people are going to take it how they want to take it, but I have never even really said anything about that. And so when it comes just to protecting young girls and sport and women in sport, I feel very strongly about that. I think that's why you have Title IX. That's why you have some of the grades in women's sports. If Title IX and women's sports weren't protected, then you wouldn't hear about any type of women in sport. And so I think in the future, it's just really important to protect. Okay, you know, great opportunity for the WNBA, right? Because it's like an 80/20 issue. Most Americans don't believe that boys should play against the girls. And you're talking about a woman's sport league. That's what you're talking about. Women's basketball, if you let the biological men play, you end up with the movie, "Juana Man" or alternatively lady ballers. A 14 year old high school freshman boys starting varsity player at any decent public school in America would torch these ladies. That is just a reality. Hey, that is not sexist. That is called reality. 14 year old boys all over America are dunking. Hey, the WNBA with biological men would just be called the NBA and the ladies would be called usher's or at best refs, maybe an assistant coach or two. So naturally, the WNBA's top voices decided to come out and stern opposition to Sophie Cunningham because the WNBA isn't the women's NBA. It is the L NBA or the LGBTQ plus minus divided by sign NBA. And all that came out into the open to a pun intended a couple nights ago in Seattle. So Brandy Cruz, a journalist in Seattle, who I know from my days back at a Seattle radio station, took a bunch of girls to the Indiana fever game in Seattle and they were wearing XXXY T-shirts. Those are T-shirts produced by Riley Gaines' company in Jennifer Say's company. They stand against men in women's sports. Fine, right? Good, right? I mean, they're carrying a sign that said, "Thank you Sophie for speaking up for girls." And then the owner of the Seattle storm who seems like a real charmer, her name is Cholestik Keaton, showed up to scream at these teenage girls. Here are those teenage girls recapping what happened. Well, we were just sitting there with their signs that said, "We love Sophie. Thank you so for speaking up." And so we were holding on to watching the game again with we were being super great. We hadn't said anything to anyone else. We were being super respectful. We were just holding our signs and cheering for both teams. And this lady, older lady, comes up to us and she comes up to us. And at first, I think she's going to be nice and she asks, "What are you guys doing?" Something like that. And then it was like, "Jesus loves everyone." That's what she told us. And I was like, "Oh, I know. I'm really just like, I know. I know. I hope Jesus can forgive you for what's in you done." And like something like that. And then she told us that we were effing and saying, "And she went like this." And she got the best of it. And stopped pulling us. And for you guys who come on, can save you. And for you to come here and pull this, she said the word. Yeah. And she say effing and saying. Or the hell she said the word. So I mean, here are the pictures of the Seattle Storm co-owners, by the way. And it kind of looks like you would think that it was going to look just a little bit. Just a little bit. Meanwhile, the Seattle Storm Center at the same game, a lady named Stephanie Dolson, who is six foot five and 245 pounds, which makes her the shack of the WNBA, except she stinks. She averages 3.8 points per game and 2.6 rebounds per game and has the mobility of quicksand. She wore this shirt, which said trans rights are human rights. Okay, lady, if you were playing against the dudes again, you would not make a basketball team. You would not. And you're the ones who are bringing this up because you're the ones who insist that boys can be girls. Now Sophie cutting him, applauded the girls. She went on X and she said, I truly believe there is a safe space and love for everybody, biological girls, biological boys, trans women and trans men. So she's using the language of the left there. Everyone is welcome in my table. You can disagree and still be kind. Bravo to those girls for standing up for what they believe. You'll be hearing from me soon. Yay for gifts. Truly embarrassing of the co-owner unfortunately shows the type of leader she is. So again, Sophie cutting him is trying to play it as mainstream as possible. She's even using the acceptable language. Yeah, I would not recommend, because they didn't kind of win or any points, but it is incredible that this was even a controversy. So the WNBA eventually suspended and fined Keaton. They said that she has been the co-owner, suspended from attending a series of games, the next five home games she's been fined. But again, the lasting impression here is pretty obvious. If you are traditionally conservative help, if you're traditionally rational in any way, if you are not a radical LGBTQ plus minus divided by sin activists, you do not belong at a WNBA game. They're actively alienating well over half of the American population. But apparently you know who is acceptable in the WNBA, players in the WNBA who literally bet on their own game on camera. The WNBA spread this actual tape. So page buikers. But I guess plays for Dallas. She made about with angelries who's sort of the arch enemy of Caitlin Clark about the WNBA All Star game. Literally betting on their teams before the game, which got Pete Rose banned from the Hall of Fame and baseball. But the WNBA thinks this is fun and cool. This is okay, apparently. At All Star Weekend, you and Angel made a bet with each other on this game. This is how the rich stay rich. You gotta say this money. I'm gonna see you next week on Wednesday. No, that practice. Oh, I practice. I mean, I know you're gonna lose, but if you all lose, I get to have that. If y'all win, y'all will you get it for one? No, you owe me for one. But I'll say no. I'll say no. The WNBA put this out like this was cutesy. Seriously, this is stuff that gets people banned from the NBA. These are two supposed stars in the WNBA. One angel race again. She's supposed to be the competition for Caitlin Clark. Well, man, yeah. The defense, race and transition. Too strong. Huge. Oh, game, but just checked in a few seconds ago. Caitlin Clark to Angel, Reese, what a connection. Angel can connect. I've been in soda. I'm meant to go in the first corner. It's race for the perimeter of this spin move, but clearly could have just got to the basket for the leg. They want that three point shot. Miles throws it away. A two on one for Reese who gallops to the rim. Can't finish tests. Here is how the whole strong. The announcer's the fun. He didn't convert on the layman and another opportunity for the dream. Great. She also misfires an offensive rebound by Reese. Angel is getting that rebound. Got the position. And yeah, yeah. Now again, Angel Reese is an terrible player. She's scoring like 16 points a game. But the other player in that clip, by the way, Paige Bukeers, she's averaging 21 points per game and is a very good player. She's mostly known for the fact that the Dallas team drafted her girlfriend number one. So it's great. You can take your daughters to the game and hear about lesbian relationships and why trans politics are the thing that matters. So here is the deal. The WNBA. It theoretically could be a thing. It could be. I mean, after all, there are a lot of women's sports that are the thing. And they're actually a thing. Women's tennis is very much a thing. So as women's golf, not so much for soccer, which tends to spike around the world cup and then fall apart for the same exact reasons because it's very important to be incredibly woke. But if you want people to watch your product, you might want to think about who's the who's the crowd? Who are you actually trying to appeal to? I have two girls, 12 and six. What I want to bring them to a WNBA game where they are being preached to about the virtues of LGBTQ plus minus divided by sign radicalism. It's enough of a burden for me to pretend that the games are actually entertaining and interesting. I would never allow these people to shovel politics into my kids' brains. But that's the problem for the WNBA. They should separate off from their politics, but they won't for them to do what they actually need to do to make the least successful. They would need to acknowledge they're totally out of step politically with the rest of America and they won't do that. So I promise you the WNBA after a flash in the pan will likely stagnate yet again coming up. We'll be joined by Jennifer Say the founder of XXXY athletics. She of course is promoting the idea that boys should not play against the girls. These things are obvious. But you know what else is obvious death. I know, right? There's a hard transition, but here's the reality. We are all going to plots at some time. And this is just one reason why you need to think about making provision for that happening God forbid. This is why life insurance isn't something you should put off. I have a new addition to our family. 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Joining me online to discuss all of this is Jennifer say, the founder of XXXY Athletics and 1986 Women's National Gymnastics Champion Jennifer, thanks so much for taking the time. - Extra happy with that. So let's talk about what happened at the Seattle Storm game. So obviously some young women were wearing your gear. Why don't you start with your organization and what it's designed to do. - Yeah, I started the brand about two years ago. I have a background in fashion and brand building. I spent 23 years at Levi's. Eight of them is the CMO too, as the brand president. And I left the company in 2022 and I decided to start my own brand that combined my athletic background with my brand building experience because I influenced this conversation about biological reality and standing up in defense of female athletes. I've been standing up for female athletes for 20 years. I was the first whistleblower about abuse and gymnastics way before the story of Larry Nasser blew up. So I'm kind of used to saying true but controversial things that people don't want to hear. So I just feel like the other side, the other side, they have all these brands and cultural artifacts, movies, film, music, all of it, touting their message. And we've just seated that territory. I just want to make it cool to stand up and say men and women are different and women and girls deserve their own spaces. That should be cool. That's a normal thing to say. And so that's what I'm trying to do with the brand, if that makes sense. - So the other night, Brandy Cruz, who's a former colleague of mine, actually, at a Seattle radio station, she took a bunch of girls to the Seattle Storm game and they were wearing your gear. And this turned into a national issue because the owner, the co owner of the Seattle Storm decided to berate the girls pretty publicly. What did you feel when you saw that happening? - Well, I do want to say one thing. So I know Brandy well and they did almost a rally outside of the stadium beforehand. And attendees, it was 10 to 1 R side. I mean, the ground is shifting under our feet. That's the good news. That's the cultural ground is shifting under our feet. There were 10 times as many women there showing up to support Sophie and fair competition. Then there were activists screeching at them. So that's huge. That's a good news. That wouldn't have happened a year ago or two years ago. It would have been totally the other direction. So yeah, these girls were court side. One of them, her name is Analy Wilson. She's 16. She's taken a stand for fair competition in Washington state. She's one of the athletes on our roster. And one of the co owners of the Seattle Storm saw fit to come up and be right. These two teenage girls curse at them. You know, tell them to cut that I won't curse. Cut this ash ash ash ash out. She said, ethnic this, ethnic that. And poor Analy started crying. I mean, she's a 16 year old girl. This is a girl and all she was doing was wearing one of our shirts and holding a sign saying, thank you Sophie. I mean, totally peaceful. There to support both teams cheering for both sides. So this woman is correctness and has been suspended now is my understanding from attending any games by the WNBA. This is what I mean when I say the culture is shifting. Now, it is kind of incredible that this should even be a matter for controversy inside the WNBA, considering that after all, the WNBA of all leagues should understand that if boys were allowed to play with the girls, there would be no WNBA. I mean, whatever you think of the WNBA, a decent high school varsity basketball team at any public school in America would destroy the WNBA champions because boys are taller, boys jump higher, boys can dunk. I mean, I know 14 year old boys who can dunk their no dunks in the WNBA. Like again, this is not a rip on women. This is just a reality about the differences between the sexes. The fact that you have the owners of these teams who are saying that somehow women should not be protected. Women's sport should not be protected is totally insane. Yes, it's totally insane. But this sort of marks through the culture has been going on for 20 years, as you know. They took over the language, the other side, these ideologues. This whole force pronoun recitation, that's what this is about. If you're forced to say your pronouns, if you're forced to say trans women are women, how do you at that point, once we will not you and I, but once others have said that, how do you tell that person, Will Thomas? Well, you are a woman, but you can't compete in women's sports. That capturing of the language has been the marks through the culture and we were asleep at the wheel, frankly. There have been women and men fighting this for some time and I'm glad the rest of the country is waking up. We can't see one inch on this. We have to rest the culture back and that means the language with the force it was taken from us. I live in Colorado, then it is a crime to misgender here, literally a crime with penalties. Like that's insane. I misgender. I misgender. I misgender. Every single day. My brain is suing the state of Colorado because this is absurd. This is ridiculous. We have to forcefully take it back. And we just have to influence hearts and minds and I think it sounds so silly that a T-shirt can help do that, but it makes it really easy for someone like Anali Wilson to just wear the shirt, not say anything. It says I believe in biological reality and I believe women deserve their own sports and spaces. It's simple. Well, that's Jennifer say you can check out all of her work online and you can go over to her company XXXY Athletics and buy some gear for your daughters or wear it yourself. Jennifer, thanks so much for this time. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right. 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Instead of worrying about infrastructure, we've been able to spend our time creating improving and expanding with Shopify. Nothing stands between your idea and real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/shapiro. That's Shopify.com/shapiro to start your free trials today. Shopify.com/shapiro. Joining me online is Clay Travis. He, of course, is the founder of Outkick and a frequent guest on daily wire programming as well. Thanks much for taking the time. Appreciate it. Yeah, always enjoy it. So you know, we have to talk about a subject I know that is close to both of our hearts, the WNBA. So I was talking a little bit earlier on the show about the fact that the WNBA, I'm not sure I've ever seen a lead that is so dedicated to its own destruction. It's pretty astonishing to watch. I was sort of comparing the WNBA right now to the NBA in the 70s. During the 70s, the product wasn't particularly good on the court. A lot of thugush behavior off the court, cocaine problems, crime problems, people punching each other and just kind of brutal brutality on the court and people weren't watching it. So it was on tape to lay on national TV and all the rest. And the, the NBA decided it was going to solve its problems by not only drafting a couple of stars like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and then featuring them, but also really cleaning up the league in a wide variety of ways. The WNBA is so tied into its own character as a radical left organization that it's alienating a huge component of the American population. And I think that that played out this week. 100%. I've got so many thoughts on this, but I think ultimately what it reflects is identity politics destroys everything. Think about this for a minute, just from a pure business perspective because I like your analogy on the late 70s NBA. Caitlin Clark, whatever you think about her, is the golden goose of WNBA basketball. She comes in and she immediately brings a level of attention. Frankly, then, that I never believed would happen. This is one I got wrong. I just didn't think people would care enough. I understood they cared about her in college, but we've had a lot of college women's basketball, you know, Gina, Laurie, I'm a Pat Summett. There've been a lot of times when women's college basketball mattered because they have a built-in fan base with all of the colleges that people root for, right? So I thought Caitlin Clark to the WNBA, it's never going to work. It did, okay? Now pause. We've seen this happen a couple of times before in the history of sports. Tiger Woods to the PGA. There were some minor snaffos when he came into the league, but overwhelmingly, the guys in the PGA suddenly realized, holy crap, we're all going to make a lot more money. The crowds are way bigger. Way more people are watching our events. Tiger Woods was the rising tide that lifted the entire golf boat. Everybody made more money, right? You have this same situation now playing out, by the way, if you want to say, okay, what about women's sports? Venus and Serena and women's tennis overwhelmingly increased the audience in a positive way. They were welcomed. There are good examples actually of sports leagues getting a gift, a star who transcends the entire sport and provides so much more impetus in a positive way. The WNBA got it. They didn't follow the lead of the WTA. They didn't follow the lead of the PGA. They didn't even follow the lead of the UFC if you remember Ron Derrausy came in there and women's fighting suddenly mattered way more. Instead they decided this is a black lesbian league. We're not going to let some straight white girl come in and become the face of our league. We're going to try to humiliate her. We're going to try to injure her. We're going to make it clear we don't want her and we don't want her fans. We would rather be an unsuccessful black lesbian woke league than a successful league appealing to everyone. >> I mean, and that really is the story. It is pretty incredible because again, if you are just from a marketing perspective going to design a women's league, what you would figure is that your core audience would be number one, people who are fans of women's college basketball. You try to transfer those over and up. As you say, there's a built-in audience for that and two people with daughters, right? I have a couple of daughters. >> Yeah. >> I certainly bring my daughters to a WNBA game, except for the fact that I'm going to get hit with a bunch of radical left wing agit prop about LGBTQ politics. And guess what? I'm really not interested in doing that. That's really stupid. I would much prefer that my daughters, if they're going to watch women's basketball, watch the college game, which is not implicit with any of these biases. And instead the league has decided to embrace all of its worse aspects. And then to turn potential stars into sort of activists on behalf of the left. I mean, they've decided to aim at legitimately about 2% of the American population when they should be aiming at at least 50% of the American population. >> Yeah, look, I think your point on dads is so huge here. Men, I know people don't want to talk about it. Men are overwhelmingly the majority of sports fans. In fact, men are even the majority of women's sports fans, right? And in particular, dads want to share something wholesome with their daughters. They love to take their daughters and moms do too. But to your point on dads in particular, this is an audience that could make the WNBA tens of billions of dollars. If they just leaned into your daughter, can one day grow up and be the next Caitlyn Clark, she can grow up and be the next superstar in the WNBA. We want to create a wholesome family environment that welcomes families across the board. Instead, they decided we don't want anyone who voted for Donald Trump, whether they happen to be Caitlyn Clark fans or not. We don't want white men to like our league. And by the way, if you criticize it, it's racist, it's sexist, it's homophobic, it's transphobic of you. How about I just like basketball? And the NBA been, I think partly because of people like you and me who are sports fans, because really I get to give Adam Silver a little bit of credit, they finally started to pivot back to the Republicans by sneakers to era of Jordan, where they appealed to everyone. I think that's a conscious choice. The WNBA refuses to do it. I mean, that's exactly right. Listen, there are a lot of left-wing players in the NBA overwhelmingly. The players in the NBA are undoubtedly voting Democrat. But the fact is that the NBA decided that it wasn't going to do this sort of overt black lives matter nonsense. It didn't 2020. They alienated an entire fan base. And instead they were just going to focus on the talents of the basketball players. The WNBA has not done that in any way, shape or form. They actually have some very talented players, people like page-bukers, for example, scoring like 21 points a game. But the story around page-bukers right now is not that she's a great basketball player. It's that she has a relationship with her teammates. I mean, that is not the kind of narrative that is going to drive dads to take their daughters to the game. Ben, back to back number one draft picks are in a relationship and they were upset. I saw this story. I said, this can't be real. This can't be real. They drafted her girlfriend with the number one overall pick. When, by the way, it was not the case that everybody looked at that and said, hey, you know what? This is clearly the best player in the league. I think the relationship probably did impact it. I don't know if you've seen this. Last night I'm scrolling through Twitter, getting ready to go to bed. Page-buckers and Angel Reese bet $400 on video on the outcome of their game. Ben, I saw this and I said, and then WNBA tweeted it. I said, there's no way this is real. I thought it was AI. I'm doing research on it. I told my wife, she's like, what do you pay an attention to? It was like, they're betting on games. This is one of the craziest stories I've ever seen in the league shared it, Ben, which I think is probably the stupidest move in the history of online sports in the internet era. The league itself shared two of its star players betting $400 on a game, which is like 90% of their WNBA weekly salary probably. So it's like, it's like, Shohe O'Connie betting like $1 million on a game. I couldn't believe this is real. I don't know what the fallout's going to be. I was just looking it up so far this morning. There hasn't been any discussion about comments from the WNBA. This is a big deal. Can you imagine if this was men's sports? It would be everywhere. And there's no chance, by the way, the WNBA is going to shift to tactics at all at all, because the chances they will ever allow an owner who voted for Donald Trump or even thought at one point about voting for Donald Trump to be in the league, they simply will not allow it. The ownership structure is completely filled up with people who are on the radical left. They will not allow expansion to anywhere that is going to lean toward even moderation, politically speaking. And meanwhile, they're just going to love off of subsidies from the NBA. I mean, the reality is that despite the fact that there are revenues been increasing, and the ratings have been increasing, they're still running. And it depends on millions of dollars in the red, every single year that WNBA. >> Yeah, look, this is why I've argued, and I really do think she should look into it. The Caitlin Clark should think about leaving the WNBA and starting her own league of six or eight teams. You look at Sophie Cunningham, who I give credit for her for saying the absolutely radical idea, men shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports, boys not in girls' sports. What happened right after she said that, she's playing in Seattle two nights ago. One of the owners of the WNBA franchise in Seattle cursed out teenage girls who showed up at the Seattle game to cheer for Sophie Cunningham. Now, they reportedly suspended this owner for five games. But can you imagine running a women's sports league, cursing out teenage girls who have showed up at your game to support a player who had the radical position of men shouldn't be able to play in women's sports? I mean, there's a reason it's the WNBA been because obviously none of these women would have any hope if you watch the highlight reels. Frankly, I don't think I bet a million dollars on it. They wouldn't take it up. A boys high school state championship team in any state wouldn't destroy the WNBA champion. They know it, which is why they wouldn't take my million dollar bet. >> That's Clay Travis. You can check out all of his work over at X and beyond. Also check out his podcast to the founder of Alcat go check them out. Clay Travis, thanks so much for the time. >> Thanks Ben. Keep up the good work. >> True self-reliance begins with taking control of your health. Our sponsor, Armor Kalostrum, harnesses nature's original blueprint for resilience. Our body stays constant pressure from toxins, processed foods, relentless stress. Armor Kalostrum is a bioactive whole food, a pure concentrated bovine Kalostrum that sustainably sourced with a commitment to calf first sourcing. With over 400 bioactive nutrients, it fortifies your entire gut wall system and strengthens your immune system from the cellular level up. This means balanced immune health, better digestion, less bloating and support for healthy metabolism and fat burning from the inside out. Elite athletes have been using Kalostrum for years because it enhances nutrient absorption, builds lean muscle and speeds recovery. But the benefits go way deeper. Cellular level support for hair, skin, energy, everything. This isn't processed or manipulated. It's pure, potent and natural. Your body's blueprint for rebuilding itself the way it was designed to function. When you invest in your health, invest in your ability to show up fully, think clearly and stay in control no matter what comes your way. We've worked out a special offer for my audience, received 30% off your first subscription order. Head on over to armra.com/shapiro or enter Shapiro to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's armra.com/shapiro. All righty. Enough talk about unsuccessful sports leagues. Let's talk about unsuccessful scientists. So Anthony Fauci had his day on the Hill yesterday. He was testifying before a Senate committee led by Senator Rand Paul and it got spicy. So before the hearing, Rand Paul tweeted out, if Anthony Fauci comes before my committee tomorrow and perjures himself, his preemptive pardon from Joe Biden will not protect him. Okay. So that was him basically arguing that again, Fauci received a pardon from Joe Biden on his way out. The pardon him for pretty much anything and all he did between 2014 and 2025. And so Rand Paul is threatening if you come and you lie in front of Congress, then you could get targeted again. Now of course, back in 2021, Fauci testified before Congress that he had not lied before Congress is about gain of function research. And again, gain of function research, Fauci was trying to talk past Paul. He was saying that he didn't do any gain of function research. Paul was saying, well, you're misdefining gain of function research for political purposes. But here's how that exchange sound to five years ago. This is a pattern that Senator Paul has been doing now at multiple hearings based on no reality. He was talking about gain of function. This has been evaluated multiple times by qualified people to not fall under the gain of function definition. I have not lied before Congress. I have never lied. Certainly not before Congress case closed. Okay. So that's what he said back in 2021. Well, if you're not lying in front of Congress, you probably shouldn't be all that worried about, you know, a perjury charge. But Fauci was very worried about that yesterday. is the reason why he declared the fifth amendment. Why he invoked the fifth amendment against self-increment. is right against self-incrimination. He started off with a one-minute diet for about how terrible Rand Paul and mean Rand Paul is. Given Senator Paul's obvious obsession with calling for my prosecution, his repeated slanderous comments about me and recently his publicly releasing my unredacted personal diary aimed at embarrassing and intimidating me, the only conclusion I can reach is that the sole reason he is calling me before this committee is to get me to say something, anything that could vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up in his words quote "behind bars." Any reasonable person who has followed his unhinged obsession with me would readily come to the same conclusion. Okay, so he then proceeded to say that he would invoke the Fifth Amendment, someone 111 times. We get into the legal consequence of that in just one second because the open question is whether he in fact could be prosecuted for contempt of Congress. There was Fauci explaining that he would invoke the Fifth. Although it pains me to do so, because of the respect I have for the legislative branch of government and my decades-long record of cooperating with Congress under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions. So then he proceeded to do it again 111 times. This did provide a lot of the Republican senators the opportunity to tee off on Fauci and get him to look foolish because when you just keep saying I invoke the Fifth Amendment, it makes things awkward. So he was questioned by Senator Bernie Moreno from Ohio. He was asked about whether he would turn around and look at members of the media who had been shamed for telling the truth. Of course, he was not a thing he was going to do, obviously. Can you do me a favor in the audience and stand up if during the time of the COVID pandemic, you were called the racist for calling the virus, a Wuhan virus or the China virus. If you thought the Six-Foot Rule was total crap, if you thought the vaccine wasn't something that you should take, if you thought it was outrageous the way the mass policy was rolled out. If you were fired from your job for not taking that vaccine, including members of the military, if you thought closing schools was catastrophically stupid, and that you thought that during these times saying these things made you somehow a lesser human being. Dr. Fratich, can you just turn around and look at the people behind you? We're not willing to do that. That's not a question. It's not a question to your lawyers, not a question. It's a request. All you have to do is look up from your lawyers and look at the people who were absolutely shamed for saying what we know now to be the truth. You can't even look at them. That's a question. Are you able to look at them? Okay, so obviously again, whenever you have a witness who is pleading the fifth and refusing to comply with the rules, that gives you the opportunity to humiliate them and Republicans dunk down them over and over, dunk down Fauci. Senator Josh Holly of Missouri, he had some fun with Fauci by asking him basic questions like what color is your tie. Because here's the thing, once Fauci starts answering questions, then it makes it harder for him to actually invoke the Fifth Amendment with regard to all other questions. That's the reason why he did it in blanket fashion. What day of the week is it today? On the divisive council, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. What color tie are you wearing? What color is the carpet in front of you? This is going to be straight. You don't have any rights under the Fifth Amendment because you've been pardoned as you very well know. As a Supreme Court has been clear for a century and more, Brown vs. Walker 1896, when he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege. You know that, your lawyer sitting behind you now shifting nervously in their chairs, they know it. This isn't about the Constitution, this isn't about the law, this is about contempt. Contempt for this body and contempt for the American people. One point Senator Rand Paul decided to toss Fauci's lawyer out of the room here's how that went. The attorneys are not recognized. In fact, the attorney was told not to sit at the table and he's not obeying that recommendation. There's a row behind you, sir. That's where you were told to sit and you're not. And now you're disrupting the proceedings. And so, look, this is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered for a lawyer not listening to the rules. That's the way you want to be remembered and that's what you're going to do. You're not recognized, sir. Security please remove it from the room. Alrighty. So, again, a lot of parotet next. Bernie Moreno went after Fauci and started berating him in front of the audience. All of this is good fun and games and Fauci deserves to prevent everything coming his way. The real question here is whether Fauci could actually face some contempt charges here is Moreno going after him. Those policies were put in place because you had moronic politicians that listened to the words of a megalomaniac who was more interested in having met a Kardashian than the suffering of the American people. And that is you. Your advice to communities like that to idiotic politicians who enforce those rules arrested that mom for watching a football game with her own family outside. When that story broke, I said to myself, "I cannot stand. I lay on the side and watch this happen." It was about six years ago today that I decided I'm going to give up my businesses, sell them all, run for office, run through the United States Senate. Here I am sitting in front of you six years later saying, "Who the f*** do you think you were for doing that?" Now, again, I sympathize with my friend and colleague Matt Wall. She says, "Listen, it's all fun and games, but is anybody getting prosecuted for this stuff?" And that really is the open question. David Limbaugh, lawyer, brother of Rush. He actually went to West Law for the sourcing on this. And here is what he writes, "Biden's preemptive pardon in January 2025 should cover any offenses that Fauci may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 1, 2014, through the date of his pardon." According to pretty well settled case law, acceptance of a pardon removes the basis for invoking the privilege against self-incrimination. The fifth amendment privilege does not survive for offenses that fall outside the pardon's scope. The fifth amendment has never protected a witness from perjury. So it's a bizarre basis to claim that the fifth amendment is going to be invoked and you can invoke it to avoid a perjury charge. Again, if you could do that, then that would mean that no one would ever have to testify for any reason. Because you can always be hit with a perjury charge for pretty much anything. United States versus Posey 2023 found that if a witness is questioned about conduct that falls outside a pardon's temporal or subject matter scope, then the fifth amendment privilege remains fully available. So theoretically, if they're questioning about something that was outside of the pardon, then he could theoretically invoke the fifth amendment, but they weren't. They were asking about activities that were covered by the pardon. Now there are other lawyers who are claiming that Fauci could theoretically be hit with a contempt charge. Now what Fauci did here is he showed up in front of the committee. That is different than what Steve Bannon did. So Steve Bannon did four months in jail because he was hit with a contempt charge. He was hit with a contempt charge because he was subpoenaed by Democrats. They wanted him to come and testify in turnover documents related to January 6th. He said no, they hit him with a criminal contempt charge. He went to jail for four months. Could Fauci have the same thing? Well, there are a couple of distinguishing factors. One distinguishing factor theoretically is the fact that Fauci actually showed up the others that Fauci has a pardon for prior criminal conduct with that said, is it possible that theoretically the DOJ could prosecute it? It could happen. Another constitutional attorney said that theoretically the Senate could argue that Fauci has no valid basis to invoke the privilege for the matters that were covered by the pardon. And so the committee theoretically has a couple of avenues. You could pursue civil litigation to compel his testimony or you could issue a criminal contempt referral to the DOJ. That's the thing that Rand Paul is talking about today. Barbara Quaid, a former US attorney, told Newsweek that Fauci could still face prosecution for any conduct that occurs after the granting of the pardon. The Senate could compel testimony from Fauci by granting him immunity. There's also the possibility of state level charges. Florida has been investigating that possibility. Now again, there are wide variety of pieces of evidence showing that what Fouchu was saying publicly, well, he was the head of the NIH was not composing with what he was writing privately in his diary. So for example, he was putting heavy pressure on the media not to report the idea that the Wuhan flu started to lab, not at a wet market. And yet he was writing January 26th, 2020. It now appears using epidata and genomic data the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market. We know the market was not the source. It was the amplifier. On January 31st, again, this is 2020. This is before most of the world knew there was a global pandemic. How she noted that scientists questioned whether the virus could even have arisen it naturally. But by May, he was saying publicly that there was no scientific evidence the coronavirus has made in the Chinese lab when it came to closing things down. Fouchi told by Yangur Sargan, when she was over at the hill that he didn't recommend locking anything down. But we know from his diary, that's not true. He literally wrote in March of 2020 that he convinced Bill de Blasio and Gavin Newsom to close New York City and California down. So again, all of these would be ripe opportunities for Fouchi to answer some questions, especially because he was given a pardon. Now, one of the things I have to say here that is kind of astonishing is that if you really are rooting for the science, science needs to be a self-critical humble process. You get proved wrong a lot in science. It happens all the time. And so if you have somebody claiming to speak for the science, who instead was speaking for his ego, well, wouldn't the scientific establishment have some sort of interest in uncovering that? In other words, why is this a political thing? This should just be a scientific thing. There were other scientists pointing out that he was wrong at the time, ranging from Marty McCarrie to Jay Badacharia. And Fouchi was fighting all of them at the time. But the Democrats, because again, the rule in our politics is so stupid. If Trump is for something Democrats are against it, if Trump is against something, Democrats are for it. Democrats turn Anthony Fauci into some sort of global hero. So Democratic Senator Andy Kim yesterday was praising Fauci for being quote unquote the man in the arena. But these public servants do it because they are in the arena. I just want to end by just reading a portion of this because I think it's important as we're thinking about how to be able to treat public servants through this country to think through this. And in the words of Teddy Roosevelt saying, it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, whose dry valiantly, whose errors becomes short again and again, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumphs of high-end. I don't have to listen to this Gary Zee Roosevelt. Come on, come on, come on, really come on. So obnoxious. Again, members of the media were doing this all day, yesterday just lamenting the fate of Anthony Fauci being asked to have questions. Here's Stephanie Ruehl over an MS now doing that. It takes me back. It breaks my heart. I can't believe we're back here. I can't believe we're relitigating this in the way that we are. I'm grateful that you're here with us today. I'm thankful you were with us for all of those days during COVID. Thank you so much. You know what it prevents that relitigation? If the scientific community had held Fauci accountable for not reflecting the data, that would have helped. That really, really would have helped. Because some of us were trying to follow the data at a granular level, which meant that our opinions would change as the data changed. And if it turns out that you were lying about the data, like for example, that the vaccine was going to end transmissibility, which is a thing that was said over and over and over. Well, Fauci was working in the Trump administration at the end of 2020, beginning of 2021. If it turns out that's falsified, well, that's a real problem. But for the left, anyone who is disliked by the right must necessarily be good, which presumably is why James Tallerico back in 2021 was buying Fauci action figures for Christmas and celebrating them. He's now the Senate Democrat candidate in Texas. Quote, I got the coolest action figure for Christmas. Thank you to all the healthcare superheroes working today. Let's help by getting back and boosted. Wow. I can't imagine the hours of fun he's been playing with real life action figure, Anthony Fauci. You know, whether there are any consequences or not, it seems to me that if they're going to be consequences for this thing in the future, it shouldn't just lie with Anthony Fauci. It should lie with the entire system that refused to examine what Anthony Fauci was saying. It should also lie with China, which spread at the virus, and it should lie, by the way, with members of the government in both parties who decided to leave this guy in a position of power. Now, President Trump does take a hit for this. Now, President Trump left Anthony Fauci in that position while publicly ripping on him. He recalled his relationship with Fauci on truth socially yesterday. He put up a post. He said, many more people died of COVID under the Biden administration than under the Trump administration. Operation Warp Speed was a spectacular success. In fact, many say one of the most successful things ever done by an American president. I overrode Fauci on this. His ideas were crazy. Also, I said from the beginning, the virus came from the Wuhan laboratory in China. Fauci strongly disagreed, always trying to protect China. I inherited Fauci, who is there since the 80s, with each passing day relied less and less than them. He made too many bad calls, like on masks. Remember at the beginning, he was an anti-masker, and then he switched to a supermasker. In any event, I didn't let him shut the country down, although we wanted to. I went the federalist way and let the governor's decide. The Republican governor's did a much better job than the Democrats' Fauci was largely taken out of play, and then along came Sleepy Joe Biden, who made Fauci a king. Again, it's a bit of a rewriting of history. Fauci remained in charge of the system largely during Trump's administration. Trump certainly handled it better than Biden, who continued to maintain the lockdown protocols and the vaccine rituals for children and the masking nonsense for full on a year after the pandemic had essentially mitigated. But bottom line is this, if we want better policy for the future, then some some self-critical investigation would be a good thing, not just you know, berating Fauci or defending Fauci full scale. Okay, meanwhile, on foreign policy, the president met with Vladimir Zelensky a couple of days ago. He was asked about this. He said that he would like Zelensky to end the war, but again, it is not up to Vladimir Zelensky to end the war. One country is invading another country. Zelensky's country is the one that was invaded. Look, you know, he's had to understand, I'd like him to end the war. So it's very simple. I get along with both. I get along with President Putin. I get along with President Zelensky. I told him, I wouldn't end the war. I get the war ended. Thousands of people, 25,000 people died last month. That's standard and it's not acceptable. So I said just end the war. Okay, I mean, just saying end the war doesn't end the war, obviously. And this is the point that Zelensky was making with Sean Hannity last night. We want to stop this war. We're asking, you know, the president Trump wants and the Europeans want, Putin doesn't want. We're asking to stop this war each day to minimum to negotiate ceasefire for some period of time and give possibility for diplomats to negotiate, but Putin doesn't want. So this is the problem. That's why we need to respond. Be tough, be strong, not only we, we count on sanctions. By the way, Linse's bill was very important. Meanwhile, in the Middle East, the United States reignited action against Iran. They had to because of course it turns out that Iran in the middle of a supposed ceasefire decided to fire missiles at a Jordanian base hosting American soldiers. And so the United States had to respond. The president yesterday detailed shooting down a bunch of missiles and rockets that were shot by Iran. I've been brief. It's a little more of the same, but it's going to be straightening out. It's going to be straightening out. In the meantime, we're going to be hitting them very hard because it's our term to hit them. They know it's coming. The rest is going to not to do it, but you know, they tried shooting it last night. So we had five rockets shot going 8,500 miles an hour, and all five rockets were knocked down to the ground. But they never let us take a shot. So it's our turn. And we'll see if we get there with an agreement or some point, but we're going to hit them very hard. Okay, so what exactly is going to happen? Well, first of all, we should point out that actually the Iranians have been activating their forces pretty much everywhere. There was a drone attack in Egypt, of all places. That may well have been connected to Iran. It was an attack on Egyptian shipping. Also, Iran has been directing its proxy forces in Iraq to strike at American and allied targets in the region. That drew a response from the United States and Saudi Arabia, according to sent com, US Central Command and the Saudi Arabian Armed Forces conducted precision strikes in Iraq on July 28 against a monoline terrorist that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps directed to attack US forces and Saudi energy infrastructure. Now again, Israel has not been directly involved in the firing for quite a while. So is the US fighting this on behalf of Saudi? Like how does this work? Exactly. How does the logic work guys? US and Saudi fighter aircraft struck multiple terrorists, logistics and weapons sites across Eastern Iraq in a strong response to over 30 IRGC directed aerial drone attacks in the last 72 hours again, Iran is trying to up the ante. They're deliberately avoiding Israel because they know that Israel has prepared apparently some pretty significant operations in Iran and they are afraid of pissing off the Israelis because the Israelis will fly their F-16s there and do some serious damage. Instead, they're sort of firing at things that matter to us. They're firing at Saudi oil fields. They're firing at Jordanian bases. They're firing at the Egyptians. They're trying to gradually up the ante. So in response, apparently Admiral Brad Cooper has prepared an option for a punishing air campaign against Iran that could take up to two weeks. People familiar with the matter said this is the Wall Street Journal reporting. Now as President Trump moves to strike back after Iran's surprise missile attack on Tuesday, the president will decide how far to go. He could gream like Cooper's option of 10 to 14 days of intensive air strikes intended to cripple Iran's missile capability, despite warnings that the US is running low on air defensive munitions or he could opt for a more limited military strike. Now again, the real key to all of this is to understand what's happening. Okay. So why is Iran uping in the ante? Why is Iran suddenly arming up? Why are they suddenly firing at the Saudis? Right. The United States is not firing at them. We haven't fired at them since Friday. So why did they decide to up the ante earlier in the week using proxy groups directly firing missiles at American bases in Jordan? Why are they doing that? The answer is because the economic situation in Iran is biting. And so what they're trying to do is they are trying to essentially play the uno reverse card on us when it comes to military operation. So I have been extraordinarily critical of the graduated escalation strategy pursued by the administration essentially since March that they'll hit us. We'll hit them a little harder. They'll hit us. And that sooner or later, they'll learn their lesson. And I've said that that is not likely to draw to a to a good deal at the end. The Iranians are figuring that because the United States has demonstrated a willingness to cease fire at the first available opportunity, if they gradually up the ante, we'll come back to the table and offer them an offram an offram that allows them to preserve their nuclear program and offram that allows them to preserve control of the straight of hormones. And we'll simply get tired of missiles flying at Jordanian bases or at Iranian proxies directing drones against Saudi oil fields and we'll get tired. That's that's their goal. Why are they upping the ante right now because the the economic situation in Iran is biting them and it's biting them incredibly, incredibly hard. Foundation for defensive democracy, my and Maleki, he points out that the Iranian economy is in a full state of collapse, full state of collapse. He says the regime is trying to drag the United States to the negotiation table. The worst case scenario for Iran's regime right now isn't more strikes. It's a naval blockade paired with strict sanctions enforcement with no prospects of a deal. No conflict means an end to the artificial suppression of inflation and market demand that the war has caused with zero prospects of a deal or sanctions relief on the horizon, followed by gas shortages and domestic protests. The regime is about to experience the underlying economic collapse head on inflation at almost 90 percent year on year in June 2026. That's the highest since World War II. The real is at its lowest value in Iran's history, north of two million per dollar gasoline rationing is down to roughly 30 liters per day per card amid refining shortfalls. The regime is escalating to stay relevant and pull the US backs in the negotiating table. But blockade great enforcement not conflict is what truly isolates it economically with no way out. Now if that's true, what that suggests is if the president can just outlast the Iranians by degrading their missile capacity to explain to what Brad Cooper is trying to do. The goal would be to grade their missile capacities so they can't really harm our allies and hit the oil fields or anything. And meanwhile just starve them out. And we'll just sit here and do that. That would be the Brad Cooper strategy. Now again, if you want it done faster, you can always do what I've suggested. Bommahar, Bomm South, Pars and call it a day. You could do that. Then their economy just collapses no matter what they do. But if you wish to take the longer range approach with all the political risk attendance on it, then you can continue to starve them out. That exactly is what's happening right here. By the way, the United States is drawing closer with other allies in the Middle East, according to Centcom, Centcom announced an agreement with the UAE to establish the first bilateral task force focused on accelerating the development of military artificial intelligence applications. I've been told by all the wisest people that this sort of stuff amounts to emerging of our militaries. I see zero of them complaining about the emerging of the US and the UAE militaries because it's not happening. It's just a joint task force to develop tech, which is a good thing. I would like the United States military to be stronger. We should have the best from all of our allies. We should have the best military precision weaponry, the best AI from everyone. That's how we win. That's a good thing. And I think that victory seems like a necessity at this point, especially given the fact that again, our enemies are supported by China. Iran is being driven by China. According to Reuters, Iran is expected to receive within weeks a first shipment out of up to 400 Chinese-made shoulder-fired air defense missile launchers, three sources familiar with the deal told Reuters that purchase valued at 60 to 70 million bucks is one of 10 runs largest known efforts to strengthen its short range air defenses since the outbreak of its war with the US and Israel. Certainly the president should have some words with the Iranians about all of that. Artifokes, coming up, you think that we're done. We are not. We have not even gotten to the latest from the DSA or the latest on the economy. We have a study that shows just who is generating wealth for the American people. And no, it's not the government. If you're not a member, become a member, use Coach Shapiro. 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