Ep. 246: Dermot Kennedy | How an Irish Busker Became a Worldwide Phenomenon

Between busking me and me now, there's no difference. It's just like some shit went well for me. It took me a long time to have a career. Busking and playing in the street and stuff like that was, say, 15 years ago. I'm kind of the town cryer for everybody I care about. You get me so often I'll have songs that I'm not singing about myself. I'll be singing about my sister or my mom in ways makes it, to be honest, a lot more powerful for me because I have all these people with me essentially on stage. How do you build out your team? To be honest, I would look back and say I was quite lucky to not fall into a really bad deal because I was keen, you know, like I was super eager to succeed and in my naivety, I was kind of like, "Okay, well if someone's offering me a record deal, that's a successful thing." How did you learn about the business? You don't follow stats at all? Nowadays I don't pay attention at all. Yeah, I would just check it every single day to see if it was going up or down, which is pointless. It's not good for my brain. What are things that artists can do to actually move the needle? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association, Champions of Songwriters and Publishers, everyone. Welcome to "And The Writer Is," I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's troubadour went from busking Dublin Street Corners to headlining arenas, which explains why his intimate lyrics can hold a crowd's attention regardless of the size. I know, I've seen him work up close. He's earned platinum records and billions of streams by mixing his Irish folk roots, heavy beats and stadium-sized emotion. All the way from the Emerald Isle, this family man makes music on his terms. And The Writer Is, Dermick Kennedy. What's up, good to see you, how you doing? Hey! How's it going? Thank you for that. That was a lovely intro. Hey, for our viewers who don't know Dermick Kennedy. Yeah, what are some songs that you've written? No, I mean, yeah, it's funny even to hear you talk about busking and some feels like another life. But I don't know, what's the biggest song outnumbered maybe? A numbered better days? Yeah, better days, probably. I definitely don't know. I used to be mega-clinical and obsessed. I'm one or the other. Nowadays, I don't pay attention at all, and I think it benefits me massively. Is that like, you have to work at that? No, it was just quite a clear-cut decision. I remember, yeah, I would just check it every single day to see if it was going up or down. Which is pointless. It is not. It's a weird thing when it's hard to explain this to people who haven't had songs out. But when you're sort of willing something to go forward or hoping it doesn't fall. And it's totally out of your control. That's what I'm saying. That's where I'm at now. I think I spent an awful lot of time trying so hard. And I'm at a point now where. I don't mean this in an apatetic way, but it's going to be what it's going to be. The music is made. I don't think an awful lot of good comes from just willing and trying so hard. I don't think good things happen. Oh. I wish I knew that. Stick to your guns. I think we kind of are constantly at different points within music. And I think now people value authenticity and awful lot. For me, my experience is that I've always been quite ambitious. And so you have to take that side of your character alongside the creative and the sensitive person. And you have to make them live together. And it was interesting because for me, the ambition side, what that looked like is kind of playing four nights in a row and being exhausted and thinking you should be, you know, and you should work that hard. And it's like, it all made sense. And it's just like, I don't know. At some point, I said this a while back. I think I could kind of sense that the audience could tell how hard I was trying. And it's just not cool. You know, that sounds like it's two percent, like it's not cool. But like, you know, like we all warm to certain things because we think they're cool. It's not cool to kind of just be playing 200 shows because you think you're meant to, you know, they should be good shows. It should be, it's quite a sacred thing. You know, you shouldn't rinse it. You think that the audience could tell the difference? Yeah, I think so. In every sense, you know, like it goes from like show production to like the songs you're playing to how you behave on stage. No matter how professional you are, I think at some point, if you're just playing hundreds of shows, there's going to be one or two nights where you're not phoning it in, but you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a really interesting thing because, you know, at least my experience of having performed. Yeah. I would remember the word that I, that I've loved on. I would remember the melody that I made. And when you're in a crowd, you're just hearing noise. You're not necessarily like hearing every single word. No. No. No. Yeah. So it's like the stuff that you beat yourself up on on the bad show. What would that be? On a bad one. Yeah, it'd be same sort of stuff like just if I didn't feel like my voice was good. If I felt I made certain mistakes, but like we went to see halfway last night here. And yeah, like when you're in the crowd, you don't care. You don't care. My perspective on stage is awful. Like so bad. Do you beat yourself up while you're performing? Constantly. Yeah. I would say like the last two songs. I'm like, all right, cool. I did a gig. What goes on in your head before you do a show? No, I'm not stressed before a show ever. It's funny because I often talk to artists who get really nervous. And they say when the show begins, they kind of find their feet. Whereas I'm the complete opposite. I feel very confident and relaxed. And then what I'm doing it. I freak out. Yeah. Not freak out, but I just like, I'm very in my own head. Yeah. Do you ever lose yourself in the lyrics or anything? Well, yeah, it's not that they don't have meaning, but I'm never like I'm not. You know, there's some people that I go, my God, when I'm on stage, I'm just like in sort of tunnel vision. I don't have that feeling. Yeah, I'm so like I'm so hyper focused on what the next line is. And if I if I like lose myself like shit, where I'm because I like I'm overthinking, then it's like it feels like, you know. Yeah. And sometimes I'm reluctant to say it because I don't want it. I don't want people to think that is not the most important thing in the world to me. But I'm certainly I'm not in like, I'm not kind of just like breezing through it like in some kind of Zen state. It's very it's very kind of what's the word, not cognizant. It's very I'm very within my own sort of. Is it torturous? Sometimes. Yeah. Why do you do it? Because I'm very lucky to like even sitting here talking to you. It's like I'm at work. It's crazy. Like I'm not trying to be corny, but like I'm kind like you talked about me busking and playing in the street and stuff like that was say 15 years ago. Like it took me a long time to have a career. So now that I have on I'm very grateful, very grateful all the time. The last time we saw each other, I was I was looking it up was the very beginning of 2020. Playing on this song that I think is just like a ten. I've played I played all the time. I played in meetings. I still like love it. And and and I'll play it for you later because my assumption is that you probably haven't heard it since. No, I haven't. But it's so good. And what what's so impressive in it is that your performance in the day of demo was like your life depended on it. It seems like you don't phone in anything. No, I can't. Yeah, even like we did a kind of couple of live videos this year and like my voice is kind of slowly waking up now. Yeah, I can't take it easy for some reason. If you pick any song out of your discography to perform what song do you perform? I have a song called an evening. I'll not forget I probably always go to that one. Yeah, that feels like the most that feels like the most kind of me song that I've written. And it's just it's sort of, you know, there's not really a hook. It's kind of like a wandering long verse and the music kind of crescendos at one point. But it yeah, it feels like any influence I have like from songwriters to hip-hop it kind of it feels like it captures all that. So I love that. If only there was a guitar right behind you. It stinks on the guitar. If only there was a piano. It was telling us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's tell a little bit of your story. Let's go in front of the beginning. Tell me tell me what day in the life of baby Dermott. Well, I was quite lucky because my best friends growing up who are my best friends now. We all kind of lived on different points of the same mountain. So instead of feeling isolated, my best friends were quite close by. So I had this kind of magical childhood where we just cycle around to each other all day and just hang out in each other's house. How many people are in this clan? Three at that point. And then, but the like kind of when we went to school and stuff, there was two more and kind of there's a group of five of us. That's kind of the my friend group. Are you guys I guess on the text chain now? Yeah, every day it's active. How inappropriate is that texture? It's pretty bad. I forgot about it. I'd be ruined. What was your household like my sister played piano brilliantly. And so that was my intro to music. Yeah. Am I on? Do she still play? Yes. We would sing kind of songs like people get ready. Vocarsity. Walk in a Memphis kind of song like piano. Let songs like nice to sing. Yeah. Same and that's my karaoke song. Right. Yeah. So it was just like it was a lovely intro to music. But I would, you know, I would sing. Like standing behind her. And if she turned around, I would stop singing. And if anyone came into the room, I would never sing again. Why why were you? I don't know. I feel quite insecure. Even these days is I have lovely kind of confidence in terms of playing because I know I'm good, but I feel very insecure in other ways. Like I was thinking about this yesterday, like, for example, like say talking about pushing it when I sing and singing quite loud. Like when I analyze that, I think that comes from playing in the street because ultimately when you're playing the street, you're trying to get people's attention. So you've got the like cap on the guitar and you're just going up, up, up, up, up. And like, as loud as you can go. And I think, you know, I was such a fan of artists like Lan Hansard. is like unanswered and I could see the way he would perform and just the fact that it, like you said, like, it means like you just, it, like, it's do or die every time. And I was, I was, I was, I'm very drawn to that. And so, um, so that's the way I would sing. And, but yeah, now, like, I think ultimately, it's almost like an insecurity, do you know what I mean? Like you're trying to get as much attention as you can. It's kind of weird. - But your sister got it, but no one else knew that you were doing, that you were in. - That I could sing. It was kind of the cliche thing of like, back of the car singing and people are kind of like, I'm going on. - Yeah, that's a little quite loud. - Yeah, yeah. - I always think about how, I think I got a lot of solos in choir growing up, because I just can't blend. Like that, you know what I mean? Like it was like, well, we have to figure out somewhere to put this guy, because like, you can't put him in there, 'cause that's gonna ruin everything. - He's not willing to be able to do it. - Give him a solo, so he stops. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I could speak that language. But at home, you know, there's a difference between, you know, playing quietly, or maybe quietly, isn't the word loudly, but with no one around, is different than, you know, maybe I should play in front of people. What's the difference? What, where does that switch? - I think I was just quite determined. I think I had this lovely thing, like playing football, or soccer was like the main focus of my life when I was younger, like from, say, 10 years old to 18. - How good were you? - Not that good. - Okay, like I was good, but it wasn't really like a, like a potential career, I don't think. And then music kind of popped up when I was sort of 12, 13, 14. And, but it was this lovely thing where like, I remember playing in the school talent show to about 800 people when I was 11. None, I didn't play to that bigger crowd again, and I was like 24 or something, you know? Like selling 800 tickets when you don't have a career is hard. So, school talent show was actually quite a crazy crowd to play to, and so, but I had this lovely initiation to it because I didn't think it was that important to me yet. So, I wasn't intimidated, does that make sense? - Yeah, what did you perform at Talent Shed? - The Dance in the Moonlight by Tenelizi. - And when you-- - Always. - I would have always, but you know that like, (speaks in foreign language) I would like to play that in the guitar as horrible. - What music was played in the household? - Do you know an Irish song I'd call Paul Brady? - What a Paul Brady, yeah. - Paul Brady wrote songs for the likes of Tina Turner and so-- - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, but in terms of his own music, he's incredible. My dad is a huge fan of his. He's got a song called Nothing But The Same Old Story about Irish people, Irish immigrants in America and how everyone just assumes they're in the IRA and stuff like crazy songs, so good. - Yeah, that's a weird thing. Do you feel like you carry around the, you know, the sort of ghost of Irish past when you are outside of Ireland? - Definitely, yeah. Not like, I don't think it necessarily makes a difference to how I behave or who I am, but like I'm conscious of it, definitely, just like our Irish musical heritage, I think it's a powerful thing. - Yeah, it's interesting when people don't realize the influence of Irish immigrants on American music that the whole Appalachian, or you think of as Americana, is really Irish music. - Certainly influence and like Scottish immigrants as well and so yeah, yeah, I think there's a museum in Ireland called Epic and it's all about Irish people and how they went all around the world and like sort of just influence things. Like I think there's some mad fact that like, I feel like I'm potentially making this up sort of mad after I got this out, but you know, like the luchador fighting masks and I think like an Irish guy designed the first one of those and stuff, yeah, crazy stuff. - So you're 18 and you're like, I'm done with my football career, whatever version of that is. - Yeah, yeah, when do you start actually like, maybe I should write some poetry or something? - Oh, and I was like 15, I was writing songs and stuff and then where in your bedroom? - Yeah, and like Dublin has a lovely kind of, I'm not sure about lately, I'm sure it's still the same, but there was some lovely open mic nights where there'd be like 40, 50 people and it was a really nice way to get to play to people for the first time. I really like supporting an encouraging environment and so my dad would drop me in and obviously you're not meant to be in the pub, so they would let me in long enough to play three songs and then go home. - Yeah, I hope LA has that still too, 'cause I think that that's, everyone got so used to having TikTok be their open mic night. You know where they just sort of, that's where they cut their teeth, so to speak. - Yeah, and that was like troubling. I was in, I was so confused, I was in a natural reasoning, there was a guy playing out an open mic like a writer's round and he enrolled a song by kind of saying, he was like, this next song is about such and such and I guess it did well enough on TikTok for my label to release it or something and then he started playing it and I was just like, I didn't realize that was a thing. You would have to reach a certain threshold for the song to even exist, you know? - You don't have any of that pressure from, you know, inner scope or your, - No. - No, it's ever like, you know, hey man, this song's really taken off on TikTok. We should, - No, that's fine. I'm up for that, but also what I'm not up for is if I have a song that I'm like, I love this song and they're like, no, it hasn't done well enough. That's crazy. - No, and I mean that, you know, like, we'll get to funeral in a second, but like, you know, like coming out with a song like that and for like, here's a new album and then here's my first single funeral. It's like either, you know, you have to have like a label that's like, yeah, let's go with that. I mean, 'cause your lead single isn't market-tested on TikTok. It's like something that you believe in. - Yeah, of course. Yeah, I feel kind of, Loki's not the word 'cause I think I kind of planned it that way, but I feel quite, like I'm pleased about it. We essentially, like anytime labels and publishers and whoever started paying attention to me, I didn't sort of, I didn't, I didn't want to do that or at least I postponed it for as long as I possibly could, so then whatever deals I would sign, I had far more leverage 'cause I had played shows here. I had played shows in New York, I had played shows like in the UK and Ireland and where I do feel Loki on and I'm willing to say is like, they were selling out and I was just like, oh sweet, now I've got a thing to chase. And I would genuinely say, like, to this day, I see it as like the first show sold out and I'm chasing that still, like I'm building on that moment. - Still. - Definitely, definitely. When you can sell 200 tickets, you're like, oh shit, like this is a thing now. - Yeah, it's a weird high that like you can't, it's like any other drug. It's like how do you ever match that? - Totally, but like the way you talk about TikTok and stuff like that and there's so many different ways to form a career and kind of succeed. Whatever that means, it's kind of, for me, I'm no good at that. Like if I went in indiscope today and they were like, "We're thinking about this campaign." I'd be like, "Okay, cool, like Donnie." The only thing I know how to do is play to people, you know? Like, and to be in a room. And like, I know if I go to an open mic this evening, there'll be at least a couple of people who are like, "Shit man, I feel that, you know?" And I know I can have that. So as soon as I started selling tickets, I was just like, finally I can just do this. - If you gave advice to that 15-year-old kid right now, what would you say how to make it in the music business in 2026? - Oh, like if he was starting now, it's hard, right? Yeah, like, I don't know how bleak that is, 'cause it's not my experience, so it's hard to say, but I do think, yeah, I don't know. Like, if it was me, I don't know. Like, it's not what you asked me, but maybe I couldn't sort of have come up the way I did. - Crazy. - So let's go back to your 15. When you're performing at open mics, are you doing covers? - Yeah, mixed with my own stuff. Yeah, like mixed with my own bad song. - What's your first song? - I just aren't gonna lost in the song. It's not that bad for like your first song ever, but it's definitely-- - How does it go? - Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what songs I wrote last week. - Is that right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - How do you remember lyrics as a muscle memory, or is it something-- - Yeah, they're all in there, yeah. If I start thinking about it, I'll freak out and then make a mistake, but if I just, if I can just walk on stage, they're all in there somewhere. - But you knew how to, you knew what the song was. Was that the first song that you played for your family? We were like, hey, this isn't-- - No, I would never. I don't like, my albums coming out in the 27th of the March and no one's heard it. I don't play music to people. I don't want the feedback, 'cause if they say it's good, I'm like, yeah, I think so too, and if it's bad, that's what car he says. - Yeah, sure. - You know, not of it, that was like, yeah. - But when you're 15 years old, somebody's saying like, I'll drive you to open mine. - Yeah, my dad would go and he would, of course, he would watch it and like, he comes to my shows and I would still, and I would never be like, did you think that one was good or what do you think? - So when you were down with it, was he like, hey, you're pretty good at this. - I think so, yeah, yeah. - What about your sister, did she support you in it? - Yeah, of course. But I don't remember any chats of kind of like, I think I can do this, there was nothing like that. I would just kept playing. - So what's the step from, I open mics are hard to get into, 'cause I'm a child, I'm gonna start busking, 'cause I was probably right around that time, you know? - Yeah, exactly, same time. I think the first time I went was I was 16. What was the corner that you played at? - Well, the first place I went to like a sea front in like a small town, I was just like, oh, this is weird. So then I did, but the influence again was land answered, 'cause he left school early. Busking is how he completely figured out how to play to people and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, perfect, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. And it's amazing because talking about like, it's hard to sell tickets and all that sort of stuff. Like, you go on the high street in your hometown, So there's thousands of people walking past all day. It's like in an age of like trying to sort of like get people's attention and make moves. It's like you've got people all day long and if you're good they will stop and pay attention and they'll be interested and they'll support you and all that episode. So it just felt like a no-brainer. And it's amazing because you have all these kind of you know like if your skin isn't thick and if you're not determined like both skin will kind of pull your pants down a bit like it's not easy. Yeah, that's true. Did you bring like a mic and a PA system or are you sitting there with just an open. That was acoustic the first day. It was bad. So you have to scream it out. Yeah, it was bad. And then I got an amp. I met an Australian guy called Maliki and he was like a busking genius. He kind of all his stuff was on this crazy trailer and he would like skateboard into Dublin and yeah he like he was he had this crazy idea of like and I guess this applies to loads of stuff. He was kind of like it's like a shopfront like I'm trying to get people to be curious before I even pick up the guitar you know. Interesting. So he was good. I didn't know because I was really idealistic. I was kind of like I want to sit here in a crap chair and have CDs with no artwork on them and I'm good enough that people will be like I'm going to support him. But like you quickly learn how it definitely helps if I stand up and if the CDs look nice you know. Yeah branding is a part of it whether you like it or not and it's hard. I think people think there was an era when artists didn't have to care about branding and that's actually not true. Even when it was just radio and it's like you know 1920s or you know still Louis Armstrong has to be like a brand and then it's like once you get to TV it's like Elvis stills a brand and it's like you go down and and you know people think like with modern technology it's like well I don't want to deal with any of that shit and it's like yeah but everyone had to deal with the shit of their time of course and right now that shit is something different but you can't totally ignore the how essential it is to you know have a storefront totally yeah it's foolish to not kind of a death. So this malachi guy what was his storefront like it was cool he played like small-sized guitars I think ukulele sometimes and he liked loop stuff and all that he was in his bare feet too he was full kind of Aussie mode so it was yeah he was just he was an interesting guy but I mean he would come to Dublin for three months in the summer and just like he'd make pretty wild amount of money for busking. What kind of money did you expect as in busking did it pay for? On a good day? Yeah it was the best. I would kind of like because it's sort of what I would do again like being quite naive I would just play relentlessly for like three hours like Ben Howard covers and Glenn Hanson all that type of stuff and and you would make very little money and then he was kind of like well what you're doing is really stupid he was like you should play like a huge song get a crowd play a half-hour set and then sell CDs and then sit down for 45 minutes let the crowd like regenerate and then go again and he's like you do that as many times you want so he was quite clever. Yeah it keeps you the fact that it like it's such such great muscle memory to go through that process of repeating your set and doing the whole thing and get so good at it but also like even the idea the active kind of playing your last song and then you got your CDs here and I you know like some buskers will kind of pick them up and go around to people and be like would you like CDs bad at that like I just can't do that and I'm like I would say I'm 100% still that person like in terms of pushing your stuff is like no if it's good like someone will I don't like kind of force enough that that era for you of busking where you're you're now putting yourself in front of humans yeah how did that chain of friends how did they respond to you doing that were they supportive remember yeah always supportive I think like do they come and watch you yeah remember my friend row he he came into town and we were like 18 I guess or maybe I don't even maybe 21 or something we had just finished either school or college and he had his job and I was busking I mean I'm sure there must have been times when it was just them chatting and they were like what is he doing but they have a side change the most but but I never experienced anything other than support which is magic but yeah but yeah I remember like I kind of told row he was kind of like what kind of money you making busking and I told him and he was just like talking how he was like I'm like that takes me X amount of time in my job yeah yeah it's like and we like me and him another friend we went to Boston remember 19 and spent the summer there and I was busking in Boston as well and they got jobs in the cinema and they were like doing their thing and like you know it's like this work easy you get what you're in college and everyone's hung over all the time and and but he I would bus kind of one day a week because you're literally just trying to buy beers yeah and and yeah just if I was being quite jammy in that sense uh what did you study in school music I did a classical music degree what uh what was your like what was your favorite part of classical I didn't like much of it at all I I they didn't I didn't like it didn't suit me I was I would almost love to go back because it was this crazy caliber of like classical musician and these amazing lectures and stuff but I was just grumpy like watching Bonnie Verivideos I was like yeah yeah yeah yeah now that it's a the music theory classes where I just remember getting an argument with my music theory teacher yeah who would just talk shit about you know popular music right and whatever it was and it's like man and this I mean this with respect is I have a degree of music but I used to just say like you're a flattest in a in a cover band it's just like the world's greatest cover band but like at least I'm out there trying to write a new song yeah absolutely yeah and and we had like this moments where we would kind of form little bands and stuff and so you would have people from a class playing and technically they'd be insane like actually Thin Leges is a good example because we played dance in the moonlight and there was a fellow with us who played the solo and it was just like flawless because you knew it was meant to be but if you were like all right we're gonna jam out the end of the song and play that and he was like yeah so what's it how do you get from you know busking to all right now I'm gonna sell those those tickets like what's where do you where do you start selling tickets if you're generally like um yeah in terms of how it moved like I'll try and tell it like sort of as like succinctly as I can basically there was times when like you could be busking right and someone would go up and be like hey I'm a music manager I think I'm like okay cool and so you would end up having these meetings with people and you're just like this person could just be fully insane but some there be little leads here and there so I remember meeting a guy once and he was like I'm a music manager in London that and I was like okay cool I'll go do that and and I'd go like hang out with you and potentially work with you and put on a show and so I'm kind of blurry like I would always do my own gigs around Dublin like you can always between family and friends and the odd person who actually likes what you're doing you'll always sell like 150 200 tickets so I was always doing like say throughout the year like three or four headline shows in Dublin and then I think it got to a point that I was like I'm gonna try to do a show in London and there's a venue called Servant Jazz Quarters and I think it's literally like 50 people and so I organized a gig there and went and played it and I like you know I just kind of just to see how it went and I remember it was one of those shows where you play and then you put your guitar down and then you're in the crowd chatting everybody and I was so I was talking to the people I was at the gig and multiple people were kind of like I heard your music yesterday on Spotify and I had to I saw you had a show blah blah and I was so I was curious and then like I said earlier it was in the days of me checking stats every single day so I went home and I think it was literally like the songs had gone from say 10 streams a day I had three songs out at this point and they had gone from say 10 streams a day to like 50,000 and is this like like to the every in already and I would say I was like 22 or 3 maybe I think so and because what happened is like what happened was all through college I was in a band and then that split up and I had I had what was the band called shadows and dust and I had I had it's from gladiator but I had we had been in studios and stuff and it was that thing of like working producers and again this comes down to my insecurity because I would be like all right I'm gonna play this song acoustically and then next thing you know there's like a bass part you didn't necessarily write and there's all these other production elements that aren't improving the song and are kind of dulling its power I think and then so when I quit the band I was like I'm gonna go into studio and have every single part written in my head like violin part bass part piano part and that's it like we're not doing anything else like nothing and so I had three songs after rain and evening I'll forget and shelter I think and two of them we still play now and so I uploaded those songs myself and so these are the ones that people had started hearing literally through like Discover Weekly or something and and so that to me like truthfully it's not that exciting but I would be like that's the moment I got a career is when people were kind of like I heard your music yesterday and I was like oh sweet now I can build on this and like I mean you're your own record label at that point completely you're your own publisher at that well that went down for a long time yeah I was like on calls all day yeah well that's why I was going to that because you know that's super that's a different muscle that's a different skill set when you start realizing oh shit yes this is now pulling in some money or opportunity. How did you learn about the business? Well, I didn't. I kind of. I started getting. and I'd be lying if I knew the figures, but I started getting X amount of streams every month. And I didn't even know that a song could have percentages. I was just like, "Yeah, of course, I wrote it, so that's the way I uploaded it to Chooncore." And I was like, "I'm the songwriter. I'm the label." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I own the master. And so, like, I guess it got to the point where I was like, I don't know, maybe like a couple of million streams a month or something. And it's the most successful I've ever felt in my whole life, ever. Because I was sitting at home and I would like refresh like my mom and dad's computer, and I would have made some money from these songs. And I was like, "Oh my god, this is a real thing." And it's that moment where you're like, "Oh, I'm not a fool anymore." You know? And Did your parents feel differently about your career when they could see you refreshing No, no to their credit. They never, they still don't support you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To their credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still that thing ever career. But so that was the moment that I was kind of like, "Oh, I was this thing." And then then it started happening quite like, it kind of snowballed quite a lot. It was sort of like my like emails were kind of blown up with like labels. And I'm a manager and I'm a publisher, and I do this. And can we speak on the phone? And so, and I felt really, really super, super guarded. And I was kind of like, I don't want to give this job to anybody. So I'm going to deal with all this correspondence. And I'm going to get on the phone to them and do all this type of thing. But I like, I didn't have a clue. I was so naive. And so to be honest, I would look back and say I was quite lucky to not fall into a really bad deal. Because I was keen, you know, like I was, I was like super eager to succeed. And in my naivety, I was kind of like, okay, well, if someone's offering me a record deal, that's how you, that's a successful thing. So, so I was lucky to kind of avoid some potholes, I'd say. Yeah, it's when people ask me on wherever, whenever somebody asks me my opinion, which is, I guess, pretty rare. But when they do that, and they say like, what's advice to give somebody who's a new artist? I'm always like, learn how you're getting screwed. Because then you can enjoy the rest of your career. You know, so it's like you can get trapped into something pretty early on if you don't have representation. But, you know, you don't fall into one of those, those, what did you call it, potholes? So then what, like, what, how do you get to, to, you know, there's a difference between streams, doing well on streams and selling out venues, getting the deal, getting the buzzes becomes something that is hard for one person to control. Yeah. So, I had somebody who's like, I think like a, yeah, that kind of reached out to me and was kind of like, I want to sign your album, or sorry, I want to sign you to my record to this record company. This is like major record. I think it was polydore at the time. And I want to then sign you to my publishing company. And he was like, I'm flying over to Dublin tomorrow. I want to chat to you and I want to get this done. And like, this is like, I was like, fantastic. This is amazing. Yeah. And, and so met with them, chatted to him that they looked after James Blake at the time. I thought that was really cool. So, and then I'd say, interesting. I don't know if this is how it works, but I think he had come in and maybe by kind of poking his head out for me, that maybe spread the word a bit. And then everybody started coming in and then BMG got in touch for publishing. And so I think then he lost interest. But he had put me in touch with the lawyer. So he bailed on any potential thing. And I was kind of sickened by that. And then why were you sickened by it? Because I was just like, oh man, that was the moment that I was going to go from like, to like a different level of success that I had never experienced. And like, obviously looking back, that's like ridiculous. But, but he had put me in touch with the lawyer for the deal he had said he was going to offer. So then when he was gone, ultimately the first member of any kind of team I had was a lawyer. And he said, the first thing you need is a manager. So I'm going to put you in touch with all these managers. And so I met managers in London a lot. And I it was quite an interesting time because I was I was quite drawn to the idea of like, not having a friend do it, but like having a really informal like, let's do this together type thing. And I'm glad it didn't because looking back, I'm just like, oh man, like the sort of the knowledge and the skill the managers have to have is insane. So I mean, he'd let it didn't do that. But so then got a manager. This is all very like compressed, but over the course of a year, I'd say got a manager. And then to my managers credit, they were just kind of like, why would you sound a record deal? Like, why would you do that? Like, you're getting paid not tons, but like enough to survive from your three songs. And then they were like, we should plan some shows. I think we did New York, LA, London. We played babies all right. New York played a place called resident here. I think that was it. And did Dublin of course. And they all sold out real quick. And yeah, that to me is the most exciting time. Like I sometimes I see Irish acts now who are like on tour, like doing the ad van across the country type thing. I'm just like, I tell them that is the best because that's the moment when I keep seeing people. I don't know, connecting with a very pure version of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, Amples doing that right now. That's why I send the message to well, there you go. Yeah, yeah. Because they were literally they were doing like guys, they're doing like the chapel in San Francisco. I think do they play the troupe it over here? I don't know. Something like that. But that type of venue. And I'm just like, that is the best. Yeah, yeah. When you're outside, like right before you go on stage and you know, the venues packed and everyone's excited. That's just cool to me. NMP is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMP goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMP. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses splice. But if you don't, you need to start using splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of. But they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use splice as AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators and that is splice. Yeah, it's a, it's, I wish that it's like when somebody says you when you're on the come up and they're like, oh man, you're going to have hits or you're going to sell out this and you kind of want to be like, you kind of want to slap them and be like, man, I can't pay for shit. Don't, don't tell me that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but like people can see it when they think they can see it. You know, there are certain people when they say to you, like you are going to do fine. Yeah, it's just hard to believe it. Definitely. Yeah, I do feel to some degree that the reason I sent that message chambla is because I feel like that portion of time passed me by a little bit because I was so, I was really kind of like, okay, I cool this sold out, but say if it's true, but I'm like, I really want to play the L-Ray or someone like, like I always, like I'm thinking about the next thing. And so I feel like that definitely passed me by and that's why I send those texts because I'm just like having taken every step now up to whatever type of venue. It's not as if like other venues bigger, so I'm having more fun. That was fun. That is so important to mentor people even when they're, you know, on some level, not asking for it right away. Like that's a really classy thing for you to do. No, it's, yeah, just I would like everyone to kind of experience it because also like you say, you never know at what point, like what point you're going to get to. I think about it now, I'm kind of, we did a tour last autumn, very intentionally, small venues, smaller venues, like we played the Orphium here, like beautiful theaters. And I'm just conscious of like it's no longer like playing to 50,000 people is amazing, but also like what's my favorite version of playing live, you know? Is that my favorite playing the 50,000 people on this bright outside or is it the Orphium when it's packed in and everyone's excited and sitting there and like hanging on every word? So what was the last time you busked? What was the last time I'd bust? Probably not that long ago. Like do you ever just go and just do it and just see it in the street? I did a thing. We were on tour with Shawn Mendes before my second album came out and we were going to do like 30 something dates and we ended up doing six because he had to take some time. And so we kind of had to scramble to figure out something fun to do. So I went and just played in random places all across America. It was nice. Do you glorify that experience now having done you know played for 50,000 people? Yes, but also like it's interesting to me. I think it like the way you say like what's my advice to say 15-year-old me or whatever it's funny right? Like I can go say doing those sort of like little acts Before my album come out we would do like we did on Philadelphia and written her square and and there's really like a lot of people there and I'm just like It's interesting to me because I'm just like between busking me and me now. There's no difference It's just like some shit went well for me. It's like I know a hundred people at home that are this good Do you know what I mean? So like it's so important to find your own contentment within your career because it like Just some degree it really is the look of the draw, you know what I mean and I'm trying not to be cynical But it's just like the fact that I can go playing a park now and there'll be like maybe a thousand people There are like lots and lots of people we didn't want Toronto was not and them I Don't know this is part of me was like like the fact that if I did that when I was 20 There'd be two people. I'm just I'm very conscious of that It's just like what are all the things falling into place to make you have a career not have a career What is the difference between you and the hundred people at home that are That want to be I was very like I was very determined to not be restricted to just having a career within Ireland Because you see that happened quite a bit like artists who can play Arena which is 13,000 and then go to London and played like 200 people you do see that and I was very determined to not do that and so That's why it felt so Exciting to come play New York play LA. Yeah, I'm play those shows and I don't mean this and like a careless way or as if like I'm not grateful, but I was kind of like if I can do stuff out there Ireland's gonna be okay, you know like I can come back and do that and and put the work in there as well, but like The bigger beast to tackle is definitely the rest of the world and so and I remember going playing those shows And then I'll never forget we came back to Dublin and played a festival called Longitude and it was packed and people went nuts And I was just like oh man. This is the trust I was hoping for you know and the kind of the hometown support that I You would be there, but just was you know, I never want to lose that and so um, but yeah I was always determined to get to have a career outside of Ireland I've always that I would say that was my one thing was like if I'm playing to have a thousand people in Dublin I want to be playing to have a thousand people in London and New York and I don't want it to be this thing of like He plays to X amount at home, but abroad. He can't sell tickets. Yeah totally What's it the progression from that and playing those three shows to you know power over me? Yeah, I guess I was so Reluctant maybe this is the same as a lot of artists. I was just like Even the term like say focus track is a very gentle version of like looking for hits, right? But even that I was like no and I was just so resistant to the idea of Chorus is even like the first three songs I've loaded There's no chorus in any of them and I remember talking in Jameson tomorrow about it And he gave me some feedback on those songs and he was in fairness. It's crazy to think he and I didn't know him And he gave me this amazing feedback, but he was just like You shouldn't be resistant to the idea of a hawk like you shouldn't like it's not a bad thing Like for people like a part of a song that people can go back to and warm to and and and love so So yeah, I mean thank God for Scott Harris. I met Scott Harrison. We we wrote that song together and I guess yeah, it was just like I think so the first person I ever wrote with was Carrie Willetsu Is in a band called athlete and he works out a London. Yeah played based on athlete, but he like just The loveliest approach to making music like so Conscious of who you're trying to be is literally just trying to facilitate what you want to do And so that was the nicest way to first like write music with somebody because I'd never done that before and then with Scott Yeah, Scott's just kind of like he just got me into that position where I didn't hate the idea of a chorus And so yeah, what is the version to courses? I know that there there's this thing that happens For a lot of artists where they want to push back from sort of the songs that they like then Lizzie like Lots of hooks crazy. Yeah, I think why why is it that people get afraid of hooks and I think for me it was like I was obsessed with hip hop around that time and poetry and stuff and I was like why would I say that three times? You know what I mean? I can the story of the song like like if me and you were talking I said the same thing three times It would be weird, so I would apply that to songs. You should just keep doing it Yeah, so if I were to say three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but if I say three times What makes it great song? It's an interesting question nowadays right when there's a bajillion songs being uploaded every single day It's like what's good or even the way I struggle with this sometimes for like if me and you were in a session today And there was somebody else and I've found this hard sometimes when I write a song and everybody is kind of like Oh, yeah, this is great. I'm just like how do you like what is the criteria? You know and and I think I'm always For me as opposed to being like Unless it's song like say Vincent by Don McLean. I'm like, okay. That's just like masterful songwriting Aside from that I'm always drawn just to people's expression and people's passion and That can be I've kind of I've realized that's outside of music That's like into sport everything like it's purely just like a determination and a drive and a Purance of heart, I guess to like do something powerful and so that's what I look for in songs And that's why it's kind of not like they hip-hop things sometimes people are like, oh you love that blah blah I'm like, yeah, of course like it's like it's storytelling in its purest form to me as sometimes I find the genre of music I make quite kind of boring because it can be quite sort of not cryptic, but like just inane I guess and Whereas in hip-hop is like a story from start to finish and it's like pure delivery and passion and all that type of stuff So what makes the song great? I guess I don't authenticity and the performance is so important doesn't it like the actual like the actual Sort of vocal delivery I think is massive, but then I don't sometimes the thing I found most powerful is like Bands like explosions in the sky where I'm just like, oh man How does that make me feel the same way lyrics do but in a far more kind of like weird physical way? It's crazy. Does melody help or hurt? The using emotion in a song and I think it helps, but I like I remember so for me lyrics was the only thing I cared about I was like the guitar is purely away from me to Right and and and to sing and so I Found it insane when people would tell me like, oh, I don't care about lyrics at all all I care about is the music and I've kind of realized how important that is so I would be quite determined like with my arrangements in the way I put a show together That if someone comes to my show who doesn't give a shit about lyrics at all that they still at least enjoy it and appreciate it respected I hate the idea of kind of like always go to lyrics, but the show is quite What's the word like not dynamic that would do my head and where did your love of writing come from? um Just reading like I was obsessed. I would like read a lot when I was a kid my mom always kind of Has an appreciation for literature and would always reading was just a very Exciting thing to me and so it always came from there. Yeah How did you get in the hip-hop and it's not a very Irish art form not at all no But like get rich and I try and was so big. I think it actually was big in Ireland Yeah, well, yeah, definitely, but like I think it was a big like people kind of love that album Yeah, and I remember row the same friend I was talking about earlier He his brother had get rich. I try and and yeah, just listen I don't know. Yeah, just a very kind of physical thing when I heard it. I was like this is so good Yeah, this guy. Yeah, there's just there's an authenticity to rap music when it's good that I sometimes yearn for and songwriting. I was like when I first heard outnumbered What I appreciated was that there was this soft rhyme, but still like you know It's stuff. It's it's the kind of rhyming you do when you When he listened to hip-hop, it's not the kind of you do when you listen to musical theater It's not the kind of you do when you're even listening to Americana. Yeah, it's like it was really soft But it really it functions really well. Yeah You can tell where somebody comes from as a lyricist from the way that they're right right right yeah, and then also You always have to be conscious of not falling into the like trying to sound like a rapper thing because that's awful I'm not that you know yeah, but that gets complicated, right? Definitely, but you just have to keep an eye on it. Yeah, I feel like a little alarm goes off my head really quick too much too much Outnumbered is he comes like that's it your first number one song in the UK. Yeah, yeah, I don't even know But it was yeah, I would feel like if you were to say like what's your biggest song? I was probably say that one. I think that's kind of crazy to go from you know, you've now done Played, you know some decent sized venues. Yeah, a number one song Throughout your home country. Mm-hmm. That means people recognize you Yeah, like my career is kind of weird though because like Like I play these venues say for example like I've had so many moments where Like for example, I was playing for a football team in New York a couple of years ago So I'd see the guys like two or three times a week and And this guy was like what you do and I said play music blah blah and And he was like do you play shows in New York? I was like yes sometimes and then we were playing Madison Square Garden in like a few months I told him and he was like oh is that like as part of a big night? Are you supporting somebody? I was like no, no, it's my gig and that happens to me constantly so I played these shows On the scale of like someone who's had tons of hits, but I've never had a song go crazy never Are you famous? Within Dublin maybe But like that's why I think like I think about songs and their potential success and all that type of stuff. And maybe it's a careful what you wish for a type thing 'cause like, we could do this and I could go walk around to wherever, serve like all day long and like, no one will talk to me. - Why are you walking around and serve like all day long? - I don't know, I'm just saying hypothetically. Or like anywhere. - Of all the places you can go to walk around out there. - But earlier you said it's touring torturous and I'm just like, sometimes, but also it's the best thing in the world for me because I don't have to hide in venues or hotel rooms. I experience everywhere I am. - Do you wish that you were more famous? - I think I might have done on the past, but not to be more famous, but just purely from the point of view that that would mean my music was doing well. - Do you think, do you want more hits? - Do you want it? - Yeah, but on my own terms. - I don't, I'm not trying to like go. - It's something works, it works. - Exactly. - I mean, play Mass and Square Garden. Why is it that we can listen a bunch of artists that have a lot of hits that cannot play Mass and Square? - That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm so grateful for. I have this career, but also at some point, you're like, I don't know, you would like to, how do I sound like, not a knob? You need to. - Why can't you sound like a knob? - Because. - Why are Irish people so afraid to sound like? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You don't care about what people think about your songs, but you're gonna care about what people say about this next day of it? - Yeah, yeah. No, I just think, sometimes like, sometimes, like you could bring my name up to musicians, and then maybe like, oh yeah, I like a stuff blah, blah, blah, but like, I'm at a point where someone knows who I am musically, I'm not surprised, but if they don't, I'm equally not surprised at all, you know what I mean? And I'm kind of sometimes, my insecurity can kind of come up a bit, and I'm kind of like, I wouldn't mind like having a song that is a big deal. I think Hozier is a lovely example because it's like this music that is clearly so authentic and powerful, but it just goes nuts like everyone, it's huge songs. Joe sitting over there was working with Jimmy Butler who's like probably a Hall of Fame NBA player and you're his favorite musician. And it's like, it's really interesting, a theme of one, like there are a lot of people where you're their favorite musician. - Just nice people. I find it easier to hang out with athletes than artists. - Why? - I think there's like, built-in kindness to athletes usually. - Really? - I do. - How do I think that they're like? - Yeah, isn't the cliche is that they'd be really aggressive and not in touch with their feelings? - I get you, I do understand that. I think the difference is, right? Like if I reach out to an artist I kind of know who is playing a show tonight, they'd be slow to pry, you might get gussless, it might like, and it might be tricky to organize. Whereas if Jimmy Butler gives you tickets, like five minutes before the game starts, he'll be texting me and I'll be okay, or you see it's okay. I think it's a different level of looking out for people. And I think that comes from being part of a team. - Interesting. - Yeah. - Is that what's most applicable about your football career to your music career? - Definitely. I think, I know we've been talking for a bit, but I think the correlations I could go on all day. About like your character and who you try and be. Like for me, the most inspiring person in my life grown up was an Irish footballer called Roy Kean. And you ask about like the way I sing like it's purely watching him. Like he's got this really famous game he played years ago against Juventus, where he had gotten a yellow card. So it meant, it was a semi-final. And it meant he wasn't going to be in the final. And he put in, but like, so I don't know, maybe 60 minutes of the game or something, he knew he wasn't going to be playing in the most important game. But the performance was crazy. And he essentially got the team there. So it was like this incredible act of like sacrifice almost because he knew he wouldn't be part of the next part, but like, and then they talked to him about it. And he's just like, and sometimes I think people don't understand but he said he gets offended when people talk about him in such a complimentary way. Because he's like this literally, like what else am I doing if I'm not trying to play like that or apply myself like that? And I think he has a thing in his book from years ago where when he would play a match to say, like when he was younger, trying to get spotted and noticed and stuff, he would play a match to say 100 people or 200 people. And he got, he said he developed a skill of creating the atmosphere in his own head. And I think I have that in music. Like if I play to 10 people, like I will just rip it because it means I really don't care how many people are there. - When without fear gets released, it's the number one album, again, in the UK and Ireland. Is that the point where you made it? - Maybe, I don't know. I like, we did a lot of stuff. There was some really bad ass moments that I was able to say I did before my debut album. So it was just like, like we would headline arenas and kind of played like this Irish festival that was like quite a massive crowd and it was all pre-albums. So that was fun to me. But I don't, momentarily made it. I'm not sure. I think like really if I had to hone in on that, I would say that night in London when I played to like 50 people. - When, you know, 2020 everyone else started to close down and you still continue to release music throughout, while everyone's at home, was it different releasing music in a vacuum? - Definitely. It was quite stressful. - Especially for someone who performs. - Yeah, well like you were talking about when, me and you met for the first time. Like that must have been just before I went on tour 'cause we essentially rushed home from tour. We had a show on Detroit and then the next day, I think flew home from Chicago. 'Cause COVID was just kind of out of control. And then, but releasing music into that world, yeah, it was very strange. I think it was a strange time for artists. We got back quite quick. Like I think our first show back with Nashville. It wasn't that long after COVID had gone, but yeah. That's the thing I was so like, I don't know. Yeah, like that's been there from the beginning just like this relentless thing to be like, I will not stop, you know. - What do you think about, you know, you featured on some records during this time that did really well. - Yeah, yeah. - And a totally different genre. - Yeah. - Then, you know, it wasn't hip hop. It wasn't, well, I mean Kevin Gates was. But, you know, it wasn't, you know, the Medusa song. And these songs there to become like, pretty significant for songs that are not, you know, and they're not like singer songwriter. - Totally. I would almost say it's like the further it gets from what I'm doing, the more likely it is that I'll do it. I mean, it was miles away. But I remember I got sent that song from Medusa. And I was like, yeah, of course, I was saying that. Like that's a really, in my mind. Like I was like, I'll sing that. Like I'm drawn to that song. Like I'm far more likely to do that than if someone is like, do you wanna feature on this? Like a acoustic thing that you don't really like that much. Do you get me? - Yeah, of course. - Do people present you songs often? - Sometimes, yeah. - They, going to better days, 'cause that's like, that's the, you know, one of the biggest songs that you've been on at all. - Definitely, yeah. - But it doesn't come on your first album. It doesn't come on your second album. - I hated the idea of it, 'cause it felt COVID, you know? - I would just say. - It's like, I hated it. I was here, I think, actually. And I, not that I hated the song. I loved the song, but I hated the idea that it was like, oh, this is my hopeful COVID anthem. That was gross to me. And then, so I released it and it did whatever. And then the first festival back was in Scotland. We played that song and everyone, like, you know, it was lovely to see it from people's perspective. Like, music fans. To them, it's not corny at all. It's like, yeah, we've been, like, cooped up in our houses for however long. It was a very joyful thing. So, all my cynicism kind of went away then. - How do you look at it now? - Yes, I see, like, it's, to me, it's just a hopeful thing now. Yeah, I kind of, I think the main takeaway for me often for my music is for people to kind of feel some kind of hope regardless, like, whatever struggles they're going through. And so, that song is really, like, for one to a better term, like, on the nose and that's in, so I'm glad it means something. - It's sort of the first sort of, like, viral song. - Really? - You know, as far as, like, you know, for me? - Yeah. - I think, like, my, like, my perspective of my career is, like, I think I don't have a clue. 'Cause, like, I feel good. I love making music, but like, I don't know. I feel, I guess if I was to be honest, I feel very, I don't mean this in a bad way, but I'm never, like, satisfied, you know what I mean? I don't mean that in, like, an inspirational, like, I always have to hustle type thing. It's just, like, I don't feel settled at all. There's always stuff you want to do, you know what I mean? - When you meet your wife? - Oh, I would have been, like, eight years old, probably. - What? - Yeah, it's nice to know each other that long. - When it's cool together, yeah. - That's crazy. - Did you know it? - Did you know it? - Eight? - No. - Like, what age do you, I mean? - Oh, what age do I know? - I don't know, are you 20s, probably? - Did she come with you throughout, like, all the tours and all the stuff? - Yeah, but also has done it now to the extent that's, and, you know, dress rooms and sort of, brilliant, like, as I just, like, all right, cool, I might rather be at home, which I understand. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Well, I mean, now it's a different thing too. - Yeah, of course. - Do you feel like that, you know, being in a stable relationship for that long, when everyone else is talking about heartbreak and talking about all these different things? Did you find that to be an advantage to be in a stable relationship? - Yeah, well, you know what, like, well, definitely, but also, Like sometimes I would hate for someone to think, like if I were to song about losing somebody or missing somebody or whatever kind of heartbreak, I would hate for somebody to think I just came up with that song because I think it's clever and that's not my lived experience. I think one thing I always do is kind of like, and I find it to be quite a powerful thought, like talk about my close friends and my family and all that sort of stuff, like I'm the one out of those 20 people that has the guitar and goes and sings to people. But we all have these lived experiences and we all have heartbreak and grief and all these sorts of things. So it's like, am I just like, I'm kind of the town cryer for everybody I care about. Do you get me? So sometimes I see it that way, so it's like actually so often I'll have songs that I'm not singing about myself. I'll be singing about my sister or my mom or all like that and it in ways makes it to be honest. A lot more powerful for me because I have all these people with me essentially on stage. That's a beautiful thought. Is that because people in Ireland hide their feelings? I don't think they hide their feelings. It's just that like, I think they don't have that outlet, you know, very few people have that outlet. I take it for granted, definitely. I don't know who I'd be if I didn't get to kind of like sing and have that kind of relief. When Sander comes out, it's another number one album through the UK in Ireland. Is it easy? What's it mean? Making hits? Making hit albums. I wouldn't say it's easy, you know, but not for musical reasons. It's more life like, you know, like it gets blurry and you're kind of away all the time and I don't know. I think there's parts of it are easy and there's parts of it are mega difficult, I think, but I never, I never really faulted you know, I think it's very important to kind of think about like, I'm not trying to be around for two albums, you know, like trying to think about like 10 years from now, what am I doing and what does that project look like? And I think for me as well at the beginning of my career, I said one of the most important things is like playing to the same capacities in different cities outside of your home, but a huge thing for me, what used to break my heart was when you'd go see somebody and the crowd do not care until they play that song, you know. And I remember, I don't know if you are aware of an Irish band called Villagers, they won the Mercury like a while back and they did beautiful, beautiful music, but I went to see them in Dublin, played like 1200 people, me and my dad went and like from the moment they began, the crowd was just locked in, like so attentive. And I remember being at that and being like, this is what I want. Like I want, I want sort of just every single song, people kind of paying attention to it and and seeing it for what it's worth as opposed to being like, I love this one, I love this one and I'm going to go to the bar now. I hate that. It's a killer. They love the artist. Yeah, and just yeah, I'm, I'm wanting to pay attention to the whole show. It's like it's, yeah, so that like, talk my power over me like, I resisted that for so long because I was terrified of the idea that I would play a show and people wouldn't care until I played that song, terrified of it. And but then I have this ambition where I want to play arenas and stadiums, so you have to manage that the whole time and keep a really close eye on it, I think. Yeah, there's a band that we know that they wrote on the entire first album and over time they started taking outside songs because they just want to make sure that when they played arenas that everyone was saying every single song and it was like this, that battle of like, what's more important in some capacity, like how willing are you to listen to ideas that other people started? You know, do you do you ever take outside ideas? No, I never have. Yeah, kind of don't need to. I guess that. Yeah, and also just I can't imagine touring something that ultimately if I break it down, I don't care about, you know, have you ever written for someone else? No, I never have. How would I like to do that? I'd like to inhabit someone else's feelings for once. I mean, if you're the town cryer, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it would depend though. From your point of view, like, I would need to, if I met somebody and I didn't like them, I would have to call it. Yeah, well, I mean, if I did, I'd stay there for three weeks until we had the right thing, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's like a fine line in those, you know, yeah, it's something you get to a point where you can work with people you like. That's, that's obviously like, that's the dream as a songwriter. Yeah, you know, but, but, you know, I don't know, I like a lot of people. Of course. And every one of you know what I mean? So like you go into a session and you're like, what's going on? You're like, wow, that's fascinating. Let's write that. Like, let's dig deep. What does that mean? And how do we like, you know, uh, you know, Scott Harrison, I share a lot of the same philosophy, melodically and, and stuff. You know, it's like, how do you tell the story? But how do you also engage in audience and make sure that you say the course three times and it is boring on the, you know, you get into some of that, you know, yeah, your job is sort of to play the middleman between, you know, uh, the artist and the audience or the artist and the label or the artist and whoever. And you're trying to like, at least be somewhat conscious of what makes it, you know, a great song. Exactly. And I think for someone like me, it's so beneficial to have someone like yourself or Scott, because it's just another ear, isn't it? And it's like a very, um, accomplished and like, just, yeah, like any any way, like you know what it's going to sound like to people. Whereas for me, I'm just like, I like this idea. Do you get demoitis? Uh, yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, quite a bit. How do you deal with that? Um, I, you know, like I like to kind of, I kind of, certainly on the album that's coming, I didn't sing the songs that many times. I was like, all right, that's it. So does that kind of, that's combating demoitis slightly? I mean, like it stops me from being like, okay, I need to do this 20 more times. And when you do albums, like they're not, they're not like, um, they're not like 40 song albums. No, like, do you write, does every song you write make an album? Uh, no, certainly not, but this time, I would say there's only like five or six songs that kind of fall by the wayside, which is okay. Um, Sunday was like a lot of songs. Yeah. But I don't think that comes as a surprise to anybody. Like that was definitely a point where I was like, just tonal vision of it, not to my benefit. I wasn't here better. No, I wouldn't say so. Like for me, I think sometimes I feel like there's two tears of writing a song. I mean, you could go in and write a song and be like, Oh my God, this could be enormous. This is what a thing, right? Like what a beautiful melody. What a, that, that. But then it then it kind of, I have to take other boxes. I'm like, well, does this mean a lot to me? Like, does it do that musical thing where I kind of get a feeling inside that is unexplainable? Um, and so if it doesn't do that, then to me, it loses an awful lot of value. I've had a lot of songs where people are kind of like, this is amazing. This could be huge. I don't know. I'm like, okay, cool. But it just, it doesn't, as someone who tours a lot, I'm like, I can't see myself doing that. In the last couple of years, when you had, you know, don't forget me, blossom, day, lucky lessons, let me in, you know, these are all singles that, that did really well, but they didn't necessarily match the numbers that you had had in previous, in, in like better days. Got you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I speak about that time as not negative, but like as in like quite a blurry time, but like songs, I blossom like a fucking love that time. Well, that's what I was going to say. It's like, you know, we last couple days going through my, my dermit phase because I try to like make sure I know what I'm doing. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, those songs are great. Totally. And so, but then there's so much more play. Isn't there like I, like two years ago, I kind of took a full year away from touring and doing anything really. And it was the first time I'd ever done that. And so, like I think a huge amount of this. Of course, the music that was the most important thing, but I did, there's so much about like where you're positioned and have you like, like have you kind of released and released and promoted and promoted at the point that people are just sick, you're faced and sick, you're voice, because it's got to be a thing. So like, I think, yeah, I think if I got, like I finished a tour in Australia, I think, late 24, maybe or 23. And it was, to me, that was like the first time I was taking a long break after that tour. And if I'd released the best song of my whole life after that, I don't think it would have done anything. Yeah, it's crazy. People had enough, you know, like you, I think nowadays you pelt people, you know, it's too much. So I think it's quite, it's quite, what's the word? Like, endearing to people now if someone actually just does it in a tasteful way as opposed to like shoving it, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's the, the being a knob. Is your knob meter, you kind of, yeah. Taking a year off was that, like, you know, it's, I loved COVID because it forced me to take a year off in many ways. You know, it's like my wife got pregnant and it was like, I, it was during a time when everyone else was taking time off or seemed that way. And so I just like, well, I'm going to kind of like, generally, I mean, time off for me is like more time off than I normally would take. I get you. Yeah. Yeah. Did you feel the itch during that, during that, during that year or was it, was there a part of you that's like, Oh, I don't never need to go back a little bit of that. So what made you? I would never entertain that idea realistically, but I definitely was like, I don't miss it one bit. There was a few times, like artists would come through Dublin and I would jump on, like Nile Horne, I jumped on stage with him for a song, and even being backstage and so far, I was like, I don't miss this at all, at all. Do you miss it now or are you excited? - Yeah, yeah. Oh no, I'm excited, yeah. And I think it's set up in such a way now and it's like a healthier touring environment and then it'll all be brilliant. And yeah, but no, that year, I think, you know, I get the edge regardless, like sitting at home doing nothing for too long, I kind of do stress, but I didn't get the edge to be backstage now. - Funeral is a really good song. - Thank you very much. - Thank you, I feel excited. - I hope so. - It's fun, and then when you play it live, it has this funny kind of bluesy thing that isn't necessarily on the record, it's fun. - Wait, why is it different when you play it now? - Because we have a fiddle live. - Okay, yeah. - All right, let's go with some rapid fire questions. I'm gonna introduce you here. - Okay. - What's a track that you released that should have been a hit and wasn't? - Dancing on the red skies, 100%. You don't even know it. - You didn't even flinch. - I know. - I don't know that one. - No, that's okay. But it's like, I remember signing an Interscope in that song, and I can't remember someone in Interscope said to my manager, they were like, "This song is like a Grammy-worthy song." I know it's like, okay, cool. But, yeah, it's just like a song that fans like. - Can you play it? - What do you mean? - No. - Well, I can, yeah, but I'm not gonna do that. - I can't say a song was deemed Grammy-worthy. Listen to this. - Yeah. - One of these days, I'm gonna get you to play. What's the opposite? What's a track that was really successful? They were like, "Well, that's a surprise." - A surprise? - I think I'm always surprised a little bit. Giants is one that I don't interact with. - And that was a lead single. - I know, yeah. - And then Irish people love it. And I feel bad because kids like it and stuff, and then kids come out to the big shows, and then their parents give out to me on Instagram 'cause I didn't play it. - Why don't you play it? - I don't want to. That's another thing. - What is it about that song, then? - That's another thing, I'm kinda like, that's why I feel so proud of my career, 'cause I just, I don't feel like I have to do anything. It's amazing. Like, if I feel angry, I can play an angry show. Do you get me? I feel joyful, I can have a very happy show. You know, I can kinda do whatever I want, it's lovely. - Yeah, that also is like, what a success story that is. - Exactly, that is the dream scenario as an artist. - And sweatpants on stage, that's the dream. That's what, that's my main dream at all of the time. It's great. - Do you feel like you have to play the game? Or is that the game? - There's some pretty cool sweatpants. - It doesn't have to feel like you're kind of at home, yeah. - It's really funny. My sweatpants off like, food on it, 'cause I'm holding two children that are like, I'm trying to, yeah. - So like, are you releasing any songs on this album that are written to your daughter? - Yeah, of course, naturally. Yeah, I think, you know, you're right about love now, it just means different things in your mind. Noss on the nose, not directly, no, I would never do that. That would be crap, that's what I mean. - Do you, if she wanted to be a musician, would you let her? - I don't know, I've thought about this quite a bit. I, I would obviously let her, that's crazy. I feel like a pondered way too long over there. - Would I let her do what she wants to do? - That's really funny. - Would I, would I be concerned? I don't know, probably a bit, yeah, it's hard. What does she want to be a footballer? - All day long. Yes, please. - Like, is that easy? - That's the dream. - That's the dream. - Yeah, I'm, yeah. I would be that parent who has to like, tape their mouth on the sideline. - Yeah, yeah. - I'd be too excited. - Yeah, who is that guy? That guy's so annoying. He sings loud in the background part too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You should hear him say you think that's loud. Who's the best artist in Ireland right now? - The Hozier probably. Is that like a bad answer? I think that's kind of, he's amazing. - Yeah, why did you question that? - Just because there's so many up on coming people that I could kind of shout about. But if I was to like, if there's somebody that I kind of, who kind of had massive success before me and sets an example, I just think he's pretty class. - Are you guys friends? - Yeah, but I'm a few times and. - I just feel like there must be also an Irish chain of like Irish superstar musicians. You got, you know, like, you know, Bono and the script and. - Yes, I don't know. - This is not a bad, just like everybody on a text chain being like, hey, group jet, what do you guys have coming out? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, yeah, I would, like, in terms of like current musicians, I just think he's fantastic. - Why does Ireland produce such great artists? - A lot of hurt for centuries in the country where music was like a form of kind of solace and comfort for people. I think it's cherished within, I think from that, you know, like hundreds of years ago people would kind of gather around a fireplace and just listen to people saying, and I think from that, music is cherished within society and musicians are supported and so I think that goes a long way. - How often do you drink Guinness? - Quite a bit, like a fair bit. - Not when I travel, not out here. LA Guinness must be fucking crap, because it's just bad. - If I did a taste tester between LA Guinness and even now. - You would know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. In New York it can be okay. This place is where I can be okay, London as well, but it is different outside of Ireland. - What's your Irish whiskey? - Redbreast. - Do you like whiskey? - Yeah, of course. - Redbreast is beautiful. - There's a bunch of good whiskey, of course. And even some Irish whiskey. - Oh, you have Redbreast. - Yeah, I got you. - Oh, okay, cool. - Why you want some right now? - No, I thought it seemed as if you had nervous. - It's gonna get weird. We probably should have started the interview. - Yeah, yeah. - When are you gonna busk next? Why is busk is a terrible word? Can't be called, it's just awesome. - I sometimes wonder if people don't know what it means. But apparently they do. - What is buskink? - I thought you were playing in the street. When would I do it next? I like the idea of doing it. But I like the idea of not. I've definitely grown, I'm not trying to do the thing of like, I'm at dislocation, come, I'm gonna play some songs. I'm kind of dumb with that. I did a lot of that. So I'm not trying to do that anymore. I would like to just set up in Washington Square Bar, come to me and play for a while. - Are you playing on a football team right now? - No. I played for a team at home called Chromlin, and I miss it dearly. I think I'm a far better person when I'm playing football regularly, definitely. Whatever feeling everybody thinks I got from music, it's actually like a different football. - I play hockey and there's a group of music industry people that I play and it's the best man. It's like, it's my version of that. It's like, you can't think about anything else, you know? - Or, you know. - It's the one time I might just lose you, definitely. 'Cause even on stage, I'm thinking about like, oh, did I do this and I kind of like, yeah. Who's the best? - You reach the end. - Yeah, close, but I'm, and that's how it ends. - Just don't say anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's the best Irish songwriter of all time? - Oh God. I can get in trouble here. I feel like Van Morrison should be up there. - Yeah. - Does the guy call Luke Kelly? Who's like a very famous Irish folk singer? A lot of people that soon as they hear that question, his name would pop into their head. Uh, hmm, for me, like in terms of my own tastes, Glenn answered. - So good. - So good. His voice scares me. Like as a loud singer, and as a powerful singer, when I see him, I'm just like, how does he do that? - Yeah, it's like, you watch and you're like, oh, I can do that. And then you're like, it's loud. And he never, like, you know, do you see anybody pushing it when they sing the "Telter" head back? He's always just like, it's crazy. Do you wish you had a different career than the one you have? - No, not at all. I never wish for that. But if I could, click my fingers and be an athlete, I would do that. So I don't actively wish for it, but if that was a crazy sort of genie type situation, I would say, yeah, go on, I'll try it. - Well, thank you for doing this podcast. - Thank you, good chat, I liked it. - Yeah, man, I mean, I said it early on, and I'll play it for you when we're done. - Yeah, yeah. - But I literally hear your voice all the time because of that one song. So you're like, constantly in my orbit, and one of the cool things about music and demos that you love is like, the best part of music for me is listening to the, like, for releasing music is the demo phase, when you're like, I know something you don't. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know? And to like, have stuff that you can go and listen to because you love it, 'cause you were part of it that one day, whatever the thing was. - Yeah. - It's like, it's such an intangible, and it's kind of a beautiful thing that, you know, probably saw you around the Brits, maybe at the Brits, maybe not. - I think so, yeah, I think so. - You know, and it's like, to go from like, an entire pandemic, and, you know, children and other shit and then be sitting here and knowing that the whole through line I've had us on that I've listened to countless times because you sing the shit out of it and did you like it then? I loved it then but if there's like if I I get to you know I don't know if other people will ever get to hear it but I can say thank you for giving me a song that I get that I choose to listen to that's the nicest compliment I could ever give somebody nice for me I'm very glad it kind of feels a way I'm excited to hear it again and there you go yeah