Ep. 245: Madison Beer | Becoming Yourself with the World Watching

I met you with somebody who aspired to do music at 13 years old. What happened over the last 15 years? My goodness. Honestly, get emotional thinking about it right now because just like little did I know that that news would change my life forever. This is my moment. Then I met Justin. He was like super sweet to me. Really took me under his wing and I spent a lot of time with him in those years and then I signed to Ireland and then I got dropped from it all when I was 16 and then he started. What's the lowest part of your career? I think I just got to a point where I was like did I ruin my life? It was hard to be critiqued. Super young all the time. Considering your song selfish has 500 million streams, I think you won. And now I'm going to place where I just let go of all that and I should make music selfishly and I'm like I want to make stuff that I enjoy. What's the moment that you realize that you had power? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to and the writer is I'm your host Ross Golan. Today's artist epitomizes popstardom in the 21st century. From viral covers to developing her own artistry, she's brave to this insane era of public self-discovery. So she's not just an artist who survived the algorithm. She has become it. Her fans are undeniably loyal and her music is making new ones every release. And the writer is Madison Beer. Hey, what an intro. Thank you. What are the three songs people would know you from? Would know me from. I think my song reckless, my song make you mine, and probably my song selfish. I think those are probably my top three if I had to guess. And what are your three top? I've got the song "Envy the Leaves" that I love very much. Why do you love that one? I just love the lyrics. I think it's like some of my favorite lyrics I've ever written. Why wasn't it in the three that you mentioned? Because nowhere near my most streamed, which is totally fine. What do you think it is? Who cares? Great. Honestly. But I love singing it on tour as well. It's like one of my favorite songs to sing live. It's just super fun. I have this other one called Spinon that comes to mind that I love very dearly. Why do you love them? Again, just I think lyrically. I think that those songs are songs that had no intention of being the single. I think Spinon was a single, but there was no expectations behind it. I think I knew that it was a bit left of center and it wasn't going to be some big radio songs. So I don't know. I think that's when I feel my freest and my best is when I'm just writing for me and the things that I think are cool to say and whatnot. But honestly, make you mine, which is one of my biggest songs was that as well. There was no pressure behind that song, which is fun. You mentioned lyrics as being the reason why those are your favorites. Do you think of music in a hierarchy of lyrics, melody production, lyrics production, melody? What's the order of importance to you? I think, honestly, maybe melody to me is probably the most important. And honestly, probably then production, then lyrics. Genuinely, I think that would be my tier. But yet your favorite ones are lyric-focused. But they are all encompassing. I do love the production and the melodies of both those songs as well, but I think just when I was writing them both, I was like, this feels very poetic. And I felt like I could showcase that side of my writing, which I don't really get to do as much on my songs like Baby or Make You Mine, where they're just kind of like sexy fun songs, you know? Yeah. Well, this is kind of an interesting story because we did actually meet and this will be your your job. Goodness. I was with Benji and Joel Madden. Okay. Totally. I used to hang with them all the time. And this is probably 2012? Yeah. I was 13. And you came in with your mom. Totally. Maybe you guys were living in Jersey at the time. Long Island. Long Island. That's the same difference. Yeah. Same difference. Fair. Sorry, guys, from Long Island in Jersey. I don't want to get into that. I'm sorry. But I met you in a studio. And I met you and I think the thing is that I met you in an era when there was no public persona. No. There was no Instagram yet. No. I don't think Instagram existed yet. It existed, but it was not at all what it is now. Like, I definitely was posting things, but they were like my vans and like my drink it. But you were. That was about it. It's just a whole other person though. I met you as a musician. I met you as somebody who aspired to do music at 13 years old. And so I think what was so interesting when it came up, like, hey, do you want to do an interview? I was like, yeah, this is fascinating. Because I meet a lot of people who aspire to do music. Yeah. And I talked about this in another episode that came out recently, but there's there's something where like this industry doesn't reward success. It rewards a strong nervous system. And I can you can you stand can you stand the game long enough? Absolutely. Can you not give can you figure out a path where you can make music for a career? Yeah. And so anybody who comes into a studio at 13 years old means that you've been working professionally now for what is that 14 years? 15 years. Yeah, I'm turning 27. Like 15 years at just perspective, a lot of people don't start their career until they graduate, you know, college. They'd be five years into their career at this point. Not 15. You know, you have so much experience working in the business. And I think it's interesting from the perspective of somebody who has survived the business for that long. So first of all, can grasp. Thank you. But I just thought it was interesting to find out what happened over the last 15 years. My goodness. Yeah. But let's go from even even before that. What age did you know, tell me about your child, you're you're born. I'm born. Okay. You want me to take it from there. Let's go from there. Okay. I'm unsure that I have any memories at all prior to maybe five. What do you feel like your first memory is from probably? That's about the right. I mean, like some great, maybe their memories, maybe their stories that I can associate. Yeah, I feel like I have some memories probably from yeah, around like five. I remember growing up in Long Island. I grew up in in Brookville and my parents had this like awesome house that they renovated and my mom was an interior designer and my dad built houses. So it was just like our my dad's an architect. My mom's an interior designer. Look at us. Look at us. I speak this language. Yes. And so it was really cool like growing up in this house that they really like created together and and whatever and we had this beautiful big backyard and an awesome playground and my brother writer was born when I probably had just turned four, I guess if I'm doing the math correctly. So he was a baby and he's really like my best friend and has been the person obviously that has been like my longest lasting friend. He gets me more than anyone. He makes me laugh harder than anyone. I just really adore my brother. I have a song called Rider on my album Sans Between Songs. But yeah, so then my parents got divorced when I was seven. This was in 2006 where I felt like I was the only kid that had divorced parents and then my mom, I, I vividly remember her saying to me she was like, I promise you, give it a year, you will not be the only kid that has divorced parents. I like that is one of my most vivid memories as her saying that to me and not to be like cynical. She was just genuinely like you will not be alone in this feeling for much longer because I think she obviously had known there was other parents that were dealing with things and so she was right and then I remember every month basically a kid would come to school crying because their parents were getting divorced and I had a hard time with it and but I think it didn't mess me up too bad. I was I was pretty okay. I think I knew I knew pretty young that I wanted them to be apart and happy versus together and miserable. Are you close with both parents? I am yeah now in my adult life. I think I was like much closer with my mom because she was the one who moved to LA with me when all of this kicked off and then my dad stayed in New York so that like caused a little bit of a separation but now that I'm older I'm definitely close with both of them. But yeah and then you know obviously jump forward a bit. I probably would say I was 10 when I was like I really want to be a singer when I'm older. That was like my first real conscious thought of that but I was always singing my whole life. I mean there's videos of me at four years old always in plays at school. I had every day after school I would go to this place called Stars of Tomorrow and it was like this after school activity. I don't even know what you would call it but basically they would put on these little silly shows and there's actually a really cool video of my teacher who her name was Miss Wendy and she is I'm on stage in front of like all it's basically all the parents that's who comes and watches at the recital or whatever and she's literally like I'm not trying to be mean to any of other kids but like remember the name Madison Beer she's like I promise you this kid is gonna make it and she said that we have a video and it's such a crazy video and she really instilled this like belief in me I think really really young and I like I said I probably was four or five when I was there and what's the first song you remember singing in one of those. The Star Spangled Banner. Really? That was my- Have you sung the Star Spangled Banner? A couple times I'm not sure that I ever want to do that again though it's- Where were you when you did it? I did wanted a nix game I did one to Rams game ones I did one at uh I did one for the Stanley Cup which was really cool. That's really cool. But it was clutch because it was during COVID so I got to like not actually be there which was kind of cool because I wasn't as nervous but the National Anthem is terrifying to sing because if you mess up anything you're just it's yeah it's everywhere. Yeah everyone's like we hate this girl so it's scary I'm not sure that I want to do many more but I remember doing that. So you start off with the most nerve-wracking thing you can possibly say. Yeah, it happens to be that and I remember I was holding like a little American flag in the video It's very cute, but yeah, so then like I think that you know That was just nurtured for a really long time and something that like my parents and specifically my dad Like my dad always had a camera in my face and was like sing for me and he was really encouraging my whole life And yeah, and then I think what music were they introducing you to my dad's a huge grateful dead fan So so when were you singing grateful dead song? No, I was singing really random songs I was actually seeing a lot of songs I would make up what were what I was doing I would come downstairs and be like I wrote this song. What was the first song that you came down stairs and said I wrote this song You know what okay, so unsure where it came from, but it was this I must have seen something like on TV that was a Chicago-esque like Broadway-type thing. I have no idea where I got this from but I wrote this song called Roxy and it was it was about like a girl named Roxy who was this like superstar No idea couldn't couldn't sing it for you if I tried but I have a video or it's very funny Would you really not sing it if you try to all I know is I was like rock see like that was like the that was the big moment Yeah, and I was probably four years old and then I the first song I really remember writing I was a song called butterfly and it was on in Miami on at South in South in or on South Beach I'm sure what you're supposed to say there I was I was on the beach and there was a guy just that would sit and play guitar and I don't know if the system was that he would like for tips Sing with you. I don't really know, but I just remember recording it on a CD and I have like I think I was in the song. He's like Madison you're eight years old that he says that in the songs. I was eight then I have that recording somewhere on a computer which so you You met a random dude you met a random dude with probably with a parent. Yeah, I assume. I was with my dad I see me or just roaming I think I was with my dad and I need some guys playing guitar Well, he would like record them there. Yeah literally with a little machine. Whatever those machines were in what was it? What was the song? It was called butterfly. How does it go? I can't recall You can't or you won't I literally swear I I really don't recall I'm trying to think I remember his part being like Madison You're eight years old. I remember him saying that and then Have you ever come like butterfly follow me. I don't I really don't know. I can get you the recording though I think it's important. I can find out. Have you um, uh, I promise we won't release it without permission All right, Zeke. Let it go Well, we'll we'll clue you and Zeke, right, man That's an inside baseball joke So So you go and you recall it was listening to your voice and and writing a song was that in infectious moment or was it sort of like Like of course, it's just natural the eight-year-olds are already into this I don't know that I like I think I just loved music I don't know that I even knew like I was writing songs or what that meant I think I just really loved music and was very obsessed with it and And then like what I was getting I was like at 10 I then started singing lessons and started aggressively being like I what do I want to do which I'm not sure that most 10-year-olds like think about their career path But I was yeah, I don't even know if I knew I was doing that but I was like I want to be a singer when I'm older what kind of singer Right, that's the question. Yeah, like did you want to do the musical theater? I think Broadway would have been like a dream come true for me Because I don't think that any of this was even a thought. I didn't know how the music industry worked at all I wasn't like oh, I love Justin Bieber He did X Y and Z like that wasn't something that I think I was even aware of especially that age and then and long Island's much closer to Broadway than it is to You know totally spot. Did you go see shows when you were little? Oh, yeah, I saw I saw a bunch when I was younger The Adam's family on Broadway was like one of my favorites. I've ever seen wicket. Obviously. I saw Avenue Q Very young and just yeah, there's there was a bunch of stuff that I went to and Robert Lopez for has been a guest on this So they're amazing. Have you Do you have any desire to do that now? I've been asked that before. I don't know I don't know. I think I would love to um, I think Broadway is such a prestigious thing though in my head that I'm like could I even Could I even do it? I'm not sure that I have what it takes to be able to do it but maybe but maybe I just think I look at it with such like high regard that I'm unsure that I would put myself on the pedestal that I can like actually succeed doing that But I think it'd be really really cool and if the right opportunity presented itself I would totally be down to like train and try my best to do it Okay, so you're 10 years old. You're you're not sure you're doing you're doing voice lessons. Yeah I remember a voice teacher. This is a little bit later than when I was 10 but was like you got to learn to yell Because I was like a musical theater guy and I knew how to sing like When I think recitals, I think like recitals east of the Mississippi, which is like you know, you're gonna learn proper like Standards like that sort of is when I came out here. I remember going to a recital where Each kid came out with like one of these microphones and like had dancers and they were like come see this recital and I was like Oh, oh, this isn't what I thought of recital was you know, it's like when when you think of recitals are you know singing for vocal lessons where you're learning in LA is Very very different than how to use your voice on the east coast. Totally. Hey, so you're doing this kind of voice lesson What's the bridge between that and then you know, I'm gonna start recording and posting pictures or videos of yeah Honestly, Christina Grimmie was like one of my biggest inspirations and idols like I really grew up loving her watching all of her YouTube videos and her covers. I thought we're so incredible and I Think that probably at 10. I don't know that the thought had like implanted itself, but then I got braces around a similar time So I was probably 10 when I got my braces and then I got them off at about 12 and I was like There's ever been a time it's now, you know, like I've got my braces. I don't want to get old and be 13 No, I'm the new the new teeth world. So yeah, so I Do you know Donnie Kling? Who's that again Donnie Kling is this guy there? So he's from long well, I don't know if he's from my island But I know him from Long Island him in this guy Matt Laporte Donnie was on this show. What is what was it called making making the band? Yes, yeah, he was on that show He's amazing. They're both Donnie and Matt shut out They so they both founded this place called the loft sound studio In Long Island and it basically was above I'm correct. Sorry Matt if I'm butchering this But I'm pretty sure the studio was above his wife's dance studio I think his wife owned a dance studio and in like basically the storage closet upstairs Matt had transformed this little tiny room into like what was just a soundboard a Screen and a literal closet that with a mic in it to record and my dad I don't know how he met them originally, but we went in and I vibe with both of them a lot and Donnie is like an incredible singer and so he was also giving me like a ton of guidance Regarding my voice and like things I should do and I came up with this idea and I was like I want to do this Bruno Mars mash up like I want to I loved all of Bruno Mars's music and so I was like I want to do my favorite five songs Mash them up into one's medley situation Or sort of thing is what I say in the video. So So then I came to them. I honestly wrote it on my phone I think I just was listening to a bunch of songs writing the parts that I thought would flow well Donnie arranged the Music and then we propped up a shitty little camera and did it I had like a pink bra on cuz I wanted to make sure everyone knew I was wearing a bra and We recorded it and posted it and that was literally it. It was just it was no thought. It was just like I I remember just being like I love Christina Grimmie and like I want to do this because she does this and that was literally crazy There was nothing else behind it. It wasn't like I was like, oh, I'm gonna be famous from this and I was in math support Because I'm still to this day horrible at math, but we've parted ways since then I don't feel the need to Remedy my relationship with math anymore, but back then I was still trying and so I was in math support classes And I was in the class probably with four other kids probably two days after it had gone live And I remember when it hit a thousand views and I was like Thousand people have seen this and it was so mind blowing to me at the time and That's just a really vivid memory and then Truthfully how it happened and there's been like it's funny. There's a lot of discourse online about like how I How it all happened just in tweeted my YouTube video Out of nowhere, literally on a random Tuesday I was like with my friend at a candy store and he just tweeted the videos and so we were 13 Yeah, and then it was like Justin wants you to be his artist and there was like a whole other Conversation than that was had so what was that? I mean, you know it first of all people think that that It when you're in the business every time somebody's like I want to sign you they the image is that somebody puts a Contract in front of you and you happen to have your lawyer in your pocket. That's like you should sign this thing or don't sign this No, no, it's like it takes if if I if you're lucky I've had one offer that actually was like within where the offer came within a week of when they said the offer would come Yeah, but even that still takes months of negotiating back like in any To me fair. We were like we my family has no ties to the music industry even more time. Yeah, so like I don't know I genuinely do not remember how long the process was but it was then very fast after the Justin tweet and it was like this public thing It was very fast. I think I don't know the timelines because again, it's very blurry to me So forgive me, but like then I met just I sang for him, which was traumatizing to be put on the spot. Someone was like, "Sing for him." I was like, "Uh, okay." And he's, I remember, I have a video of it. He's like sitting on a countertop, kicking his feet. I'm in front of like my favorite human being on Earth. And I'm standing there shaking, trying to sing, fallen by Alicia Keys. And I'm like, "What on Earth is going on right now?" And I genuinely was like, "I must have died and I'm in heaven." Like, this is not real. - Yeah. - As a 13-year-old girl. - Go at 13-year-old girl in them from Long Island. - I think I have a video in front of the, yeah. In front of like, the biggest pop star in the world who, like. - Why, why did a cardboard cut out of my room, mind you? Like, go scroll down on my Instagram. My first ever post was me saying we met Bieber. And it's me kissing a cardboard cut out of him in my room. Sorry, Haley, I'm so sorry. - How do you, look at this, this is our first photo together. - Yeah, that's crazy. - Like, look at us, we're children. And then I do have the video. Okay, this is just, this is just like, unfortunately I don't think I have this singing, but this is the first time I ever was in the same room as him. And I was losing my mind as one would. I was losing my mind, but yeah, you have that video. - Oh, I do have the three of me singing. I can't show you me singing, it's horrible. I'm really embarrassing. I'm like shaking standing there. But, oh, anyway, we, and then, but then after we met, he was like super sweet to me. Really took me under his wing. And like, I spent a lot of time with him in those years and then I signed to Ireland. And then I got dropped from it all when I was 16 and then restarted. - The kind of like jumping. - Also, no, but also like, we'll get to, getting dropped is the biggest gift you can get in the music business. And people always, you get nervous, you get nervous that for that first, for the first day you get, you get that phone call is really tough. - Yeah. - Well, when you're 16, you're like, this is the end of the world. - It's such a blessing. - It is. - Why do you think it's a blessing? Well, I think it's like easy to have the perspective now because I feel like I'm in a place where I'm so proud of where I am today. So I can obviously like back and be like, thank goodness I went through everything that I did when I did. But I think it's a blessing because I just, I don't know, I think I was working with people and in situations that like I wasn't able to fully express myself. And I feel like now I'm, I really feel lucky that I'm in a situation that I feel really supported by like my team. And I think a lot of people don't realize to like, how much of an artist is their team. It's so much and it's so important to like work with people that make you feel seen and supported and heard. And like even my label now, like they are so awesome to me and like really let me have creative control over everything. There's all these conversations of like, you know, I've seen people say it about me where they're like, she's controlled by her label. I'm like, I have a really great relationship with my label and they're really, really good to me. And I'm not saying it's always been like that. I mean like things you have to kind of go through things to learn them, but I'm now in a position where I really do feel thankful for like the relationships that I have and the team that I have behind me. - One of the the worst stereotypes in the music business is this idea that male pop stars tend to write their music and female pop stars don't. And in reality, you go down that list of female pop stars. If they're not writers, they're and they're successful, they're the best curators of their work. And they don't necessarily take credit on songs, they didn't write or whatever. Then the ones who are, you go down the list of the top 10 artists, female artists of the last 10 years. And those are probably also the top 10 songwriters, you know. It's, I think that permeates sometimes the A&R world too, where the assumption is, well, young female can't also be a good writer and they don't necessarily write. - I think I got like, when I got started super young, which I honestly, I think, okay, my perspective is like, I try not to fault people too much because I think that, this is also probably just like my way of coping. I think that like we all were figuring it out and like maybe did not know how to handle a 14 year old, which to be fair, like they shouldn't have signed a 14 year old if they didn't know how to handle it. But I think now I look back and I'm just like, I don't know that anyone had like bad intentions, I think it just didn't work out. But yeah, there were so many times that I remember being frustrated because I'm like, you guys signed me singing at last by Edda James and now you're throwing these demos at me that I have to record and release that I hate. Like my first single melody is like no offense to the people who did, right? That song, like I hate it. And I hated it then. I hated it then at 13, I did not like it. And so it was this weird thing I had to go through where I was like releasing songs that I did not feel attached to, which I think then like created this split that I still deal with today. Of like the me that exists as an artist and the me that exists as a person. - When you have music that's out there in the world, but it doesn't really represent who you were at a time or now, why not take it down? - 'Cause I think it's a part of my story and it is something that I think now I look back on and they feel like pillars of gaining control. And like I feel like I use them so this day as like I remember how I felt when I was recording said songs and I don't wanna ever feel that way again. And so I feel like I use them as like those markings of, I look back and I'm like, wow, I've grown so much since then. Instead of erasing it, I'm like no, like that happened, that exists, it's part of my story. I can like laugh at it now, but I remember how I felt. - Who is nap, you know, you said that once you find the artist is their team. It's like the artist sort of is the brand around the company. - Exactly. - And the populated people within the company are managers, publicists, agents, all the people who help that. In those first few years when the label sort of, you know, sort of dictating what you get to record and what you do, what was it that you were missing at the time to combat that, maybe I just combating what the label system. - I think again, like my, I have no, we had no connection to the music industry, so I don't think we had anyone to turn to, to be like, is this right or wrong? And I think we were just, I say we because it really does looking back feel like it was me and my whole family experiencing this like together. And I think we were just so excited and thankful for the opportunity to like be signed by one of the biggest managers in music, to be signed on one of the biggest labels. Like, what a dream come true for a child who just like always wanted to be a singer. It's so unfathomable. And so I think there was just a lot of gratitude that was overtaking my ability or like desire to fight back, I guess I just was like, you don't want to cause any, any waves or you don't want to upset anybody because these people are taking a chance on you, which then I think manifested in all these other ways like that I, I think as I got older, I was like, wait a second, this feels like a little misogynistic and this feels like something that as a woman I'm being told, I can't, well, not even a woman, a girl. I was being told, like, don't speak up. Just, you know, do your job and look pretty and sing your little songs and I hated that 'cause that's so not who I am. Like, I like to cause waves. I like to stand up for myself. I'm someone who I will like always speak my mind and I think that felt very silenced, very, very young and I hated that. - What's the moment that you realized that you had power? - Hmm, that's a good question. I think I felt pretty powerless when I got dropped. I think I felt, also I think it was a feeling of betrayal in a weird way. I was really intertwined with a lot of the people that I had worked with since I was so young and you know how it goes where everyone's like, "We're family and you're my sister." And then suddenly they're like, never mind, "Cuck you right off." And that was my first experience with that. - You're my drop sister now. - Exactly. And it was really painful as a kid. I was just like, wow, and then I think I internalized it and was like, these people don't like me. I'm not good enough. And it just then spiraled into this really negative thing. But I think what made me feel like I had power was still being able to control and connect with people on social media. And that's really how like my social media presence blossomed was because that was mine. It was always mine. No one ever controlled or posted for me on Instagram. And let's just say Instagram, 'cause at the time it really was just Instagram. It was always just me. And I think it gave me this sense of community that outside of all the other things felt really out of my control. Whereas this felt like something that these people were, my friends, they were my community. We were building this thing together. I was engaging with them all the time. And that's really how it started for me. Was just, yeah, feeling like I have power. And it's in this, I guess. - You mentioned a few times about people say that it started with the wrong order of things where you know, or, or it's, or it's aware of, you know, all these these, being super self-aware of what the conversation is or what then, what you perceive the narrative to be. How affected are you by the public's narrative of Madison Beer? - I think now I'm not as affected because I think I've just come into a point in my life where like I know who I am. I know the right people know who I am. And I think I'm tired of being like, please see me. And it just, it feels kind of this, like this void. I yell into pretty often. And so I think now I've let go of it a bit because you really can't control it. And there's going to be so many people. I mean, I could release a hundred albums and people will still be like, I thought she was an influencer. I thought she was a TikToker. And I'm just like, okay, that's totally fine. And something that I don't get, I don't think I get like offended by it. I think it's more so just some like, like you're just not informed, which is not your fault. So I don't really blame people, but I'm like, give it a listen, go look it up. It's like, it's easy to figure out, you know? So I think it's a little frustrating, but I try not to let it affect me too much 'cause I do really feel like I've garnered such an amazing community, and that's what matters the most to me. And so I'm like, if you don't know or you don't care, you don't like it, and that's not my problem anymore, I guess. - Yeah, I mean, one of. - But it's hard for not to affect me at all. I mean, of course I still, it still bums me out sometimes, where I'm like, damn, I can release so much music and people will still be like, you know, I thought she was just an Instagram girl. I'm like, well. - Yeah, I mean, we say, you know, one of the things that are sort of motto for the first nine years of the podcast, or you know, there are millions of singers, there are thousands of artists, but there are only 40 songs per genre at a time. And I think there's this idea of like, you know, the quote industry plant, or what it is. And at some point, you know, you just release an album that is top 10 on its own, not because of that you're the influencer part. Do you know what I mean? Because there are a lot of influencers that release music, and we can go down that list. And that don't end up in top 10 in music, you know, for an album, and you can name a ton of musician who don't end up in the top 10. So, like, to not give credit where credit's due is, you know, that's them, that's them. - Thank you. I appreciate that. I think that's the thing that has also helped me stay on that track as well. 'Cause I'm just like, how am I gonna sit around and be super bummed that there are like, probably millions of people who have the complete wrong idea of me when there are so many other people who have the right idea. And like, I can just focus on that. I can focus on this awesome tour. I'm about to go on. I can like, focus on the album. And I think that the album, you know, like I'm, it being top 10 is so cool, but I think what makes me really proud is the fact that that doesn't feel like the indication for me anymore. Like, I don't, I think because I've never really had a lot of those things like being high on the charts before. Like, I feel like now where I really define success is the fact that I can feel good about it no matter what the numbers look like. So then when it happens, it's even more cool. Cause I'm like, wow, this happened without me having to conform or change anything. And that is the most rewarding thing. And that's something that I like to talk about. Cause I would hope that like my fans and the people listening can apply that to their lives as well. Where it's like, you can, you can be successful while staying true to yourself. You don't need to always like sell out or do what you feel like you have to. Like, that's just for me at least. That, I mean, this album has done the best for me. And this is the album that I was like, I'm throwing all of my, you know, preconceived notions about like what a hit is out the window. And I'm just gonna make things that feel good to me. I mean, you've had some songs we haven't gotten to the songs yet, but you know, we've had songs that are, that are, you know, that have 700 million streams, 500 million streams. Like they're, it's hard to say that those aren't hits. Well, thank you. But they're hits because like in my, in my way, I guess, like, and that's what's so cool is like, yeah, the streams are amazing. Don't get me wrong. Like I'm not gonna sit here and lie and be like, I don't care. It's so cool to know that, yeah, 700 something million people have streamed reckless. Like that is crazy because I wrote that song when I was going through a breakup with a boyfriend and was having a hard time. And it was about a very real situation and blah, blah, blah. And now like so many people have listened to it. I can't even tell you the amount of people that come up to me on the street. And they're like, that song got me through a breakup. Like that is so cool, but it's, I wrote a song for my heart. And it's twice the population of the United States. So it's like, you know, when you think about like everybody in the United States listened to it twice. It's nuts. But it's very nuts. Tell me about the day you wrote reckless. Oh goodness. I'm trying to think back to it. Yeah, I was going through a breakup and I was having a hard time. And there was a situation that happened where like essentially to make a long story short, there was a, you know, it was the classic like the girl I was told not to worry about. It was like the first girl that he went to when we broke up. And it's crazy. It was so long ago. It's hard for me to even like, remember all these things. But yeah, it was about that. And I think that was like one of my first real experiences with something like that and I think I went into the studio and I was just like, I think it might have been so simple that I was just like, how can he be so like reckless? Like and I kept saying that. And then I think we were like, reckless is a great title and a great song. And then we just went on it and it was really easy. I remember that being like a very easy day. I probably still have the first step of somewhere. I loved also like the idea of it being this like music box, toy box sounding thing. And so you hear like the wind up toy box at the start of the song and music box, I guess. And yeah, it was just a really magical day. But it wasn't something that I was like, oh, this has to be the single. No, I was just like, I just wanted to write the song. How does it feel when you've, you know, somebody who's cut outside songs and somebody who's written songs? What's the difference in emotion when you record a song that you loved that somebody else wrote versus a song that you wrote? Is there a difference? There is a difference, but I don't think one is like inherently better than the other. I think that like there's songs that I've released that were demos that I've loved recording, like my song Home With You. I loved that song so much. The second I got sent it, I was like, this is a great record. And I couldn't wait to record it, which is actually how I met Leroy. That was the first time I worked with Leroy. And Ray actually wrote that song. And I just loved it. I thought it was amazing. So there have been times where I've recorded demos that I've enjoyed, but I think there is a deeper emotional connection when it's something that you genuinely went through. And like I also really like to throw in small personal things in there and Leroy said I know applied to like my situation directly. And so I think it just makes it that much more meaningful, but both are enjoyable. I just don't really cut demos anymore, because I love to write music now. Yeah. Was that a business decision or is that a creative decision? No, definitely creative. I think I just, the more I made music and especially like what I was saying before, like your team is everything that's also the people you make music with. I mean, that's so important. And like you can attest the vibe in a room, can change everything. And it's so important to like, yeah, like have a certain vibe, have a relationship with the people that you work with that's strong. And I'm very, very lucky to have been working with a lot of the same people for a really long time. And so we, it feels like we're family just kind of messing around. And then we hope to get like a great song out of it. But that is to me the best part where I'm just like, it's so fun. Nothing's better than renting a house for a week with like some of my favorite people in the world and being able to write an album. How cool is that? Yeah, you have to commute all the way to Connect and One Love's studio after this, which is I think about five houses away. Five houses away, also Tim is sitting right there, shout out, brah. What makes writing with them and Leroy, you know, those are obviously, you have Lucy. Yeah, yeah. We have people that have like, you have, you have people who are part of this to join this thing. Totally. Totally. What is special about your crew of songwriters? Yeah, well, so Tim and Jeremy, I've been working with for 10 years now, which is like insane to say. And I can't believe that it's been that long. They're like both dads now and it's like nuts, but yeah, I just, I don't know. I think that it's such an intimate experience writing music and also like, feeling that level of comfortability to really get a song, especially when we're writing these ballads. I think to properly communicate what you're going through, you have to be comfortable enough in a room to like be honest. And to be real with you, it helps a lot because they've seen me through like all of my relationships. And so they understand all of the nuance and like all the things that I've gone through and they're like, oh, well, you know, that reminds me of when you went through that with your first boyfriend and that. And like, they have the context that I don't need to explain. Like, you know, sometimes you feel like you get in sessions and you have to like, give your life story again, whereas with them, like, they already, they lived it with me. Like, they've been a part of my life through all of my relationships, all of my journeys. Like, they've seen me through so much. So that's super valuable. And I think that growing with them and like specifically, Leroy Tim and Jeremy, who have been with me the longest, like, I think we all have really grown as like producers and songwriters because of each other. And I think we've all learned so much from being in rooms together for so many years and like creating now a third album, it's something that I think is like pretty irreplaceable and I don't see us really ever stopping working together, it's just like, it's, yeah, it just feels like riding a bike, I don't know. Let's go through some of the songs. Yeah, let's even, you know, we talked about reckless, but you and you said you had the demo. I probably do. What does your demo sound like in a play? Well, let's see if I have it. I might have spoken too soon. Let's see from October 23, 2020. It's a more simple version. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, what is it? Oh, crazy. Wow. I forget that. Different vocal. Weird. We, I think we punched all of those words because I think that I was like not able to, we were messing with the chord progression and stuff, I think you could hear that I'm like, "But, like, if those were punched, maybe not that one." I think this is slower maybe - we already had harmonies down though good for us See okay like and I oh I just skipped forward I love this song and because like even just listening I don't listen to it often but like when I do listen to it lyrically It's so specific and I'm not gonna like indulge on all the details what happened But like what I was going through like those lyrics of You you like went to her house you guys always left me out like that Was just how I was feeling and I think it was just so not over complicated. I was just sitting in that room and I was just like They always leave me out and we were just like great use that right it like you know I love when songs don't feel over complicated Because I feel like sometimes I can definitely like pick everywhere in a part and I'm like that's not good enough And that doesn't make sense and that it all but this song I just wrote what I was feeling You know you Those first few songs that you had to cut were very cheery poppy pop pop pop songs Yeah, and then you know you once you start getting into like You know the stuff that you were doing um On your own time. Yeah, you know post-getting draft You know as you please is even yeah, like you you start getting darker totally is it easier for you to write dark songs than happy songs? Oh, yes, for sure. I think I'm also just like I I always find myself to be someone that's ways a bit dark and I talk like whenever I'm having a conversation with someone. I'm like what so what happened in your childhood? You know I'm not in a person so I think that that's like it's easy for me with music too It's honestly hard for me with with lock it It was kind of a challenge because I wanted it to feel like a brighter album that was like happier and that was really difficult because I'm like I want every song if it was my way I'm sure I would have an album full of ballads because that's what I find to be the easiest to write and the most authentic to me Or like the dark stuff Why did you end up going back into the label system? After getting dropped Um great question NNPA is our lead sponsor yet again What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists There is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published a co-published or a publisher writer Publishers only make money if songwriters make money So NNPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do They fight for you and they fight for this podcast So thank you for fighting for songwriters NNPA. Thank you for fighting for us too Okay, so I use splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this use this splice But if you don't you need to start using splice. They have the most incredible licensing library That you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of but they take care of their original creators In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators Every time you use splice as AI tool it triggers a licensing event for those original creators So there's not a better Company that I can think of right now that you can use where you can use the efficiency of AI And also know that you're taking care of the creators and that is splice Why did you end up going back into the label system After getting dropped Um great question. I think that it was just um It was a couple years that I was independent and I honestly really enjoyed being independent I think it was a really cool experience and you asked really about like feeling like you had power I think it was also about like building myself up to feel like I had power again I didn't need to be in the label system necessarily and um And then I think it started proposing the questions of like do you need to be in the label system to be successful? Is that something that is necessary like there were so many questions that I think I had and um So I was independent for a while um Like three years, I think and then I just kind of started making my way where like there was people wanting to meet me which felt cool You know, it wasn't like I was going there being like please let me in they were like we want to talk to you And get to know you and I went to epic And I I think I just probably had a great meeting and enjoyed what you was that 2019 Going into a new record deal right before COVID Uh, did that change how you you know, what were your how did COVID affect your music career? You know again, I'm really bad with talking about it because I think I don't remember things very clearly regarding timeline Because we all got like confused with the timeline order in COVID, but um I remember releasing stained glass in lockdown, right? Am I tripping? I think stained glass came out in lockdown Um, I don't know. I'm gonna see. I'm gonna see it. I'm looking. I'm looking. I'm looking. Maybe before I mean I don't know because I just want to be in Long Island like in lockdown promoting it on TikTok Which is like a new way of promoting music But anyway, yes, so like my album life support came out in 2021. Yeah, I think yeah, that's correct. Yes. Thank you. Thank God and Yeah, I think that it was like still lockdown-ish and I think my first tour date of the life sport tour was literally the first day that things got lifted Was that scary? Yes, absolutely. We were going into a being like if if things don't get lifted you are going to have to incur like all these costs that were rehearsals and building the stage and like doing all these things So it was like taking a risk, but obviously thankfully it worked out, but it was scary And then it was just it was I guess like a little it was hard because I feel like I'd worked for so long on this album and then Lockdown happened and I kind of released it like during that time and it felt it felt kind of yeah, I felt weird You know again like I meet you in a studio and and then you have you know You control your social media and you can promote from TikTok and you go recording another album in a studio You do more stuff in a studio, but when you get a billion plus streams on an album or an EP, you know There's now an audience that wants to see you live. Yeah, and Not everybody who says you know a studio person wants to perform live Do you enjoy performing live? I do. I think that touring is something you kind of have to figure out and I don't know that you can just like jump into your first tour and be like oh this is great. It's perfect I think there's kinks that you figure out and this is now going to be my I guess technically my fourth Real tour. I would say this is like my third real tour because my EP tour was like very small and not really whatever But it was great. No hate love love tour, but probably this is like yeah this is my fourth like real tour And I think now I'm just figuring out like what I need what are non-negotiables. How can I sustain it? What are non-negotiables for you on tour my bus being a bus that I love is my number one thing because I just like I'm I'm a big like smell space I need to feel safe in my air and like you're on your bus every single night for sometimes upwards of six months And so it's like you're renting a house basically and you want to run to house that you like and so I've made the mistake in the past Where I've been like oh no, it's fine like book whatever and then I'm miserable because I'm like this doesn't feel like home at all You have to kind of trick your brain into thinking you're still home in a sense and like I think that's really difficult to do when you're on a bus every single night and you're driving across countries and state lines and so For me now I know like okay, even if it's just my star projector that I have in my room every night A candle that smells like my bedroom and a blanket that I know and love and a couple stuffed animals like it it actually makes the difference It sounds silly, but it really makes the difference I also know that like I need a shower on my bus Need one need to be able to like jump on the bus rinse the show off basically and get in bed like there's just little things that I I need and I and I know that now, but it takes touring a couple times to know that do you like Being on tour do you miss home do you get home safe? Well, it's like that like Back and forth where like I go on tour and I'm like oh my god This is the best thing ever, but I really can't wait to go home and like see my pets and then I get home and I'm like Okay, I can't wait to go back on tour. So it's kind of a constant back and forth, but what pets do you have? Thank you for asking I have two cats and what are there? Thank you for asking again Mookie is my cat that I found on the side of the road the night the what the the wadgers the Dodgers won the world series nice two years ago And maple Yes, and honestly like I'm not a baseball fan. I just but when in Rome you have to thank you. Thank you for understanding Um, so yes, so and she also like has a bit of a cow marking so she Mookie move it all works you call her me. I do call her I call her a lot of things me. He suddenly is a new one Yeah, when I'm up in her face. I'm like me Yeah, so I get that do you have cats? I had a cat many years ago. I then I had a dog But now I have human children and maybe we'll add a dog at some point, but again, but currently I am the lowest on the Priority list in my household. Okay, so I'm just I'm just trying to I'm the closest to pet right now. Okay, you know I'm the thing everyone climbs on and like so I'm currently the house pet I understand but yeah, and then I have Presley who is my my dog who's Just the best sweetest thing in the world. It's hard to be away from them I actually brought I mean you you fed the coyote outside of our house Our studio. So like you're definitely an animal lover. That makes sense. I know I I really love animals And it's actually been something I've been struggling with because I'm like three months away from leaving for tour and I've been Having a little bit of a hard time thinking about leaving my animals because Presley like in theory could come yeah, he came on my U.S. tour last time and it was totally fine and great and maybe he'll come again, but - What kind of dog? - A Bernadoodle. But it's only a lot on them. It's like stressful for them and I feel bad and like just in the-- - They don't know their home. - No, and he's in the bus and he's like getting tossed around. He doesn't know what's going on. And I feel kind of guilty and the cats I could never bring because Mookie was an outdoor cat and she's just waiting for her chance to get back out there. And so I would never bring her. And then Maple, bless her heart, is just the scaradest of the scaredy cats. - I've been saying that about Maple for a long time. - Maple, she's, you and everyone else. My brother doesn't believe she exists because she hides behind my chair and my room every time he comes over. He's like, I don't think you have this cat. I think you may-- - Riders got a sense for Maple. - Yeah, I've been saying that also for a long time. - Yeah, so that first album that comes out under Epic is kind of like a wild success, like a comparative everything before that. - Yeah. - It's not that the other stuff wasn't. - No, that's okay. - But it sort of puts up, you have multiple songs over half a billion streams, which is like, it's still a lot. - Yeah. - You know? - It's crazy. - It's crazy. - Do you, are your expectations being met at that point in your career? - Numbers-wise or just like in general? - I don't know, you're putting on an album. Why? Why do you put out albums? - That's a great question. I think I put out albums because I love albums and I love to listen to them and I love music. And I think music has just changed and touched my life in like so many ways. And it's what I turn to. It's what I listen to when I'm in the best mood ever. Like nothing influences my life like music does genuinely. I feel that way. And so I think that's probably why I release it is to hopefully touch people in the same way that it's touched me. But yeah. - Silence between songs is the second album you release you know, with Epic, right? - Yes. - And you know, again, scratching 100 billion streams overall, these are real like heavy music numbers. - Yeah. - You have a few songs on it that drive a lot of that but home to another one is-- - Love that song. - You know, it's sort of the song from maybe the key song from that. Tell me about home to another one. - I love that song so, so much. That was another song that I wrote like a very specific time in my life and it was about this like fractured relationship and basically that's like you call me baby but I know you go home to another one essentially saying, you know, you're playing two people here and this was, yeah, this was a very real situation and-- - It seems like you've been in some, you've been in some tough relationships, man. - Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. - Is that from-- - But I got good songs out of it, so hey-- - Yeah, there you go. - Whatever. - Is that from, I mean, is it from being part of a divorce family? Is it like where is that come from? - I sort of just said that you kind of gravitate towards what feels like home to you and so who knows? Maybe that is the reason, but I think I'm weeding that out. I'm in a very healthy, loving relationship now, so thank God for that. But yeah, I mean, also it's like being a teenager, you know, like I think we all go through those ups and downs but I have been in some situations that are, I guess out of the ordinary, but I don't know. Maybe they're not. - My mom grew up in a household of divorced parents and I think that's what made her a really loyal wife and mother was because she wanted the opposite of that. - Of course. - You know, so you follow the cycle or you break it. - Oh yeah. - There's some choice in there, you know. - Absolutely. - You were saying that you're in a loving relationship but then when you were saying that it's nice to be able to have stuff to write about breakups, is it hard to, you know, squeeze stuff to write about when you're in a happy relationship or is it nice to be like, ah, here's a shiny album. - Totally an interesting thing that I feel like I'm now like navigating. I think I've gone through, you know, ebbs and flows with people in real life situations and I've written about real things I've written about. I mean, I have a song called Tyler Durd and which is like from Fight Club. Like I've written about many types of things so I think it's not always super representative of what I'm actually going through in that exact moment but it's been cool. It's been cool to also like explore, I've written love songs in the past. Like I've obviously felt positively about people I've dated as well but like, I think what really gets me going is the breakup songs and is like the heartbreak song. So yeah, it's an interesting thing but I've loved enough that I can squeeze it out. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the reality is this one of the cool parts of being a-- - But it is hard sometimes I'll play a song for my friends and they're like, aren't you like super in love? And I'm like, it's not about my right now, you know? - It could also be something where it's writing about the position your parents were in. - Yeah, totally. - Writing from being like this is-- - No, like you're thinking about a situation you know very familiarly and then you're like, writing about it for sure. - It's weird that music has to be from a fans perspective is almost always this idea that it's non-fiction. - Right. - And that you're not supposed to play characters or you're not supposed to tell stories. And to me, the great American pie is a story. - Totally. And there's so many of those. - There's so many states. - I mean, all of like, there's like there's-- - There are millions and millions of-- - Yeah. - This is what it was. A Trubidor would tell you stories. It wasn't all stories about myself. - Exactly what they're going through, yeah. I think that's, yeah, it's a funny thing not everyone. I mean, even when I was releasing this album, I saw people online being like, oh my god, she wrote this about her boyfriend. I'm like, I wrote this a year before I met him. - Yeah, yeah. - Like this isn't like, I don't think also people really know how long it's to come out. - Do you feel like you have to explain and apologize to people online? - Yes and no. I don't think I have to, but sometimes if I get the opportunity to, I'm like, hey, let me set the record straight, but only I try to only really do it when it feels like important enough to. I think I've gotten better as I've gotten older, just like deciding what is worth my energy and my time because it's precious, man. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's hard to get it back. So I've been in enough years of my life, and I do mean years of my life, scrolling aimlessly through what people have to say about me that I now just, I try to step back a little bit. Like I don't have Twitter on my phone. I try not to, when I see a negative TikTok about myself, I try to program my brain to scroll right past it, like not open the comment section, but it's hard. I'm also just like a 26-year-old girl that is human, and so it can be difficult, but I try not to give my attention to it as much anymore. - Before we get to lock it, you know, I want to ask about, showed me because it's an interpolation. - It was playing right when I walked in. I heard you guys playing a great song. - Interpolations are, you know, when somebody takes classic song, and they rewrite, you know, part of it, the hook, whatever it is, what about that song, why the interpolation, how did that song come to be? - I love music from that era and time, and I think it's just like, it's just really magical, and I think probably again, because it doesn't feel like they were trying to make hits, at least I think. It was just more so like coming from a genuine place. And that song specifically, the second I heard those, like, string swells, and that, like that weird bend, I just fell in love, and I was like, I need this on a song, desperately, yesterday, and so I just figured it out, and we, yeah, we made our own thing with it, and it was just super fun, I'd never done that before, so it was like a really fun experience as well, kind of honoring a song that, I mean, it was a huge song, but a lot of people, I think, don't know it today, and so I love kind of giving it like, maybe a second life, in a sense, and it's just super fun. If your younger self could see you now, you know, what do you think would surprise her most? - Probably how calm I am, I think. - Interesting. - I think she'd be like, I think she'd be like, I don't care about the musical wins, I think, like, she would probably look at me and be like, "Whoa, you seem very put together," in the sense, like, mentally, and I think I just, I don't know, I feel like I was someone who just always felt really, and I have my days still, but I think mentally, I've always felt very like all over the place, I've struggled with, you know, and less mental health things, and I think I just feel like I'm in a place where I, I feel like, I don't wanna say I feel healed, because I think healing is something that you continuously do, but I feel like I'm on this path of healing, and I feel like I really know who I am now, I don't feel like I have to prove myself to people, I think the right people see me, and I just, I've made peace with that, and I think that that reflects itself now, like my nervous system doesn't feel spiked all the time, I don't feel constantly anxious, and again, like I said, I do have my moments and things make me feel crazy once again, but like I do think in general, I feel like I'm at a place where I feel pretty peaceful in general, and I think that would be what she's like, "Whoa, that's us, what the hell?" - You got to be, got to go to the Grammys this year. - It did. - That's cool. - It is cool. - Did you make it? - Did I-- - Have you made it? - Did I win, anything? - I don't know, oh is that, is that what you need to-- - Oh, what are you asking? - I'm just asking, like as a human, like you get nominated. - Oh, I'm having my thing that I've made it, are you asking? - Yeah. - It once was, I think. I once was like, if I am ever near the Grammys, I will feel like I've made it, but I think now that I've been nominated twice, I think it's so cool, I just, I don't know. I think I'm just like, my goal post has shifted to the way I feel more so than like the trophies I hold. Not to be cheesy AF, but that is my truth. But I would love one. Don't get me wrong. I mean, yeah, like I've lost both times And I think it'd be really awesome to win. It of course would be like a dream come true But I just I think I just more so have like removed the idea that like I am a failure if I don't do X Y and Z Because that used to be how I was where I was like I'll feel like I made it when I do blah blah blah Where it's like there's so much more that I think like I feel like I feel like I make it every time I step out on stage And I see a sold out crowd like those are those are the moments that are really so moving But yeah, obviously if I want to grant me I would probably ball my eyes out and not be able to speak so I'm talking a big game, but My friend Tommy Kale said to me that success is managing expectations And that that has always stuck with me. It's just like this ability to I don't want to say like Like being able to move the goalpost one way or the other just something that is That you can control. Yeah is a is a whole other thing totally then then you know trying to You know, you can't choose you can't choose whether people are gonna stream a song You can't choose whether we're gonna vote for you like all those things totally, you know But let's talk about this album. This is also the first you know, it's the first time You're you have a top 10 Alman on yes, you know billboard 200. That's That's a huge achievement Why now? Well, thank you first of all and I think now I Don't know and I think it's really rewarding that it's be it's it's happening with the album that I Was the most free with writing and just like the most I feel like experimental and I wasn't really Bounding myself to like these things that I think in the past I had Done I think I think I just went into it like I just want to release something that I'm proud of and that I love and so it's cool But it's happening now. I was uh I was talking to Maddie and off ski earlier uh who you wrote bitter sweet with and I said that you were coming in Shout out Maddie one of the best writers in the game. She's amazing and Buttersweet the day I met her so yeah crazy that shows you But I said what was it like you know working with medicine just you know and she said one of the coolest things about you is that you come in the room You know what you want you know that you that you are you are the driver in the room. Mm-hmm cool That's sweet of her. Thanks. Yeah, and I mean a Lot of artists come in the room and our job is to You know be the Motivating force and to bring in the ideas to bring in the concepts bringing the vibe whatever it is and hopefully it strikes Accord with them and you know Yeah, that's but you don't have to work with a lot of other artists Yeah, that's interesting and that's what it that's what most of it is. It's it's it's not every day that you have But you have somebody come in as an artist who knows what they want What was the day like when you wrote bitter sweet? Yeah, so it was actually funny Tim had a session with Maddie and John and I Kind of like I think I literally woke up that day and was like I need to write a song today And like I just felt like it was very urgent and I don't really do well writing songs alone I kind of just like I'm very easily distracted and so I feel like it's not like the most productive thing when I'm by myself so I think I remember I called Leroy I want to say he was out of town and then I called Tim and he was like I have a session and I was like Well, I'm out of luck and then Tim hit me back and was like do you want to come to like my session like they're two Awesome writers and like we can work together and I just usually like I just haven't worked with a ton of new people like I Like Lucy was the most recent addition and she came in on sounds between songs So like I've been working with her for a long time now as well, and it's just I don't know I feel like sometimes especially when I'm I know that I want to write something really vulnerable and when I'm going through a lot It's a little bit scary for me to go into a room and be like Here's my whole traumatic experience that I'm currently dealing with laid out on the table nice to me By the way, like that feels sometimes a little bit weird. So I Was like you know what though like if Tim saying they're cool like they're cool So I went in there and yeah literally went into blazing and I was like this is what's going on. This is what's happening Oh my god, I think I probably was crying to them explaining everything that was that was happening in my life Which was like a very intense emotional whirlwind break up and We just got after it and it like happened so easily and the four of us work together really really nicely and they were just really cool and Let me feel free to and then yeah I did come in with like some references that I liked and some sounds that I wanted and It's just the best when that when it happens like that and yeah, it was just it was just a great day It's a cool song. I What when I tell people about what it's like to be a songwriter, I usually say it's like walking into a room of people You don't know sing at them and then ask what they think exactly Like nobody and outside of the music world came it came comprehend how weird that is But it is no different like nice to meet you like here's my life story. Let's write a song about it. It's weird Here's my life story it goes like this. Exactly. It's so weird It's and again like other song. I always think it's funny when people have an ego in songwriting because you're like yo You sing right like you just came in here You can't act like you're like super strong like this. Yeah, no, man You have to be that's probably partially why I work with the same people too because like none of us have this ego thing And I think none of us would even allow that to be remotely in the room And I just to be real with you. I cannot stand it like I've obviously met some like Not gonna name them like huge producers or songwriters that like have like a billion hits and I'm just okay enough with you like I can't with the Just goodness. It's just also like we're not We're not like rocket scientists here. We're making music and it's amazing, but I'm just like relax a little okay, yeah Let's tone it down slightly. I think they're writing with the the smaller crews, which has been you know It's it's becoming It's becoming cool again to not be In the you know, it's it's really hard to have a comprehensive album a cohesive album That has songs from all over the place. Mm-hmm. It's just very very difficult. It's hard You know, and when you think of the albums that you like most it's often as much smaller crews, so I think there's You know, it's got to be that thing where you can come in and also just bomb for a day And know that when you come back the next day, they'll still be there. Absolutely. You know, absolutely It's very very crucial not that I ever write a bad song, but if I did I would want you know Think you're definitely speaking. Yeah, just in the off-chance. I had a bad game Let's do some rapid-fire questions. Okay. Okay. What's advice you'd give a 13-year-old version of you if you met them today? I was gonna be funny and say turn the camera off, but it's I'm not I don't mean that I would I would say Maybe don't be as trusting to everyone, but again, it's hard. It's hard because it's like I love where I am today So I wouldn't change anything, but like I would probably just be like don't be as trusting of people. I think I just like Was so bright-eyed bushy tailed like oh my god everyone's so nice and great And I didn't really think about like what was going on behind the scenes and That situation so probably I would just be like don't be as trusting I think I still would have been like follow your dreams because I wouldn't want to take that from anyone But I would have been like maybe manager expectations. Yeah, yeah, yeah a little That's success, man managing expectations. That's the deal. Yeah It's also like it's a weird thing when if you're on the label side putting yourself in their shoes You sign somebody's 13 years old who's never released music before you're gonna have them cut songs that are gonna come from hit writers Yeah, that also seemed like songs with 13-year-old should say totally and by the time you record them you're 14 So then now they're dated so you're trying to chase this thing So to get dropped at 16 and having three years of recording songs that were already outdated before you ever got to release And that are supposed to identify with you when you didn't write them. It's it's it like well And they're looking at me going kid What do you mean you want to sing a song like at last by edit James? That would be ridiculous if you tried to release a song like that So it's like it was this yeah, that's why I say like I shouldn't probably be so gracious towards everyone But I think I do look back and I just don't hold resentment and I don't I'm not someone that believes in like carrying hatred through your life And I'm just like you know what I think we all were just I just shouldn't have been saying that young That's the truth the situation. Yeah, that's really how I feel about it So I always say you know what I would say to my third channel stuff is just maybe wait a couple years go enjoy summer camp and being a kettle for a couple more years It's not gonna hurt you. Did you miss out? I did No prom no homecoming which people might like watch this and roll their eyes and be like okay girl You were like in L.I. making music but like those are important moments in your life And I think like moments that really do shape you like I got pulled out of school in seventh grade I was homeschooled and it was very isolating I didn't have like that community of your high school friends. I then didn't go to college Do you have any friends? Not for a long time. When did you meet your first friends in L.A.? A lot of my first friends in L.A. were My brother's friends that I would hang out with a lot like a lot of his friends and you know They were like three four years younger than me. So it was kind of difficult sometimes But then I sort of like was starting to have a little bit of a group but I don't feel like I had many - Any friends for a while? I probably say from like a seventh grade to probably ninth grade. I feel like I was pretty isolated. - Man, that's tough. - My own, yeah, but it was okay, I mean. - I think what's weird about that. - I made friends with my producers and writers and stuff, but I do feel like I missed out a lot of ways. - But those producers were 15 years older than you. - Yeah, some of them. - So it makes you grow up differently. - I do feel like I grow up fast, but I think I just, that's the part that I mourn a lot where I look back and I'm like, even when I watch like college football games, like that just looks so fun to be in those stands and with your friends and like having a pregame. And again, like people probably are rolling their eyes being like, it's not that great, I promise. But it's hard when you have an experience to it. Like I do feel like I'm, there are things that, when I sit around and I like, and with a bunch of, my friends and they're like, oh, remember that time in high school? Oh, remember that thing you did in college? And I'm just like. - Yeah, but you know, it's crazy. Those people in 20 years from now are gonna be like, remember that thing in high school? Remember that thing in college? - Right, yeah. - You know what I mean? Like a lot of, not everybody. But there are a lot of people where that's the, you know, I mean, that's a cliche, right? - Yeah, I don't know, it's weird. It's like, I'm sure, and then I'm sure if I did stay in school and I went to college, I would have been like, what if I was in LA right now making music? So who's to say? - The idea that you had to, you know, I got to write a lot of music, nobody heard. I got to write a lot, I got to do music videos that didn't end up on YouTube because they were done before YouTube was really a thing, you know? You got to do things that you, nobody can find, you know? And growing up where every piece of music, almost literally, every piece of music you ever did is findable. - Oh yeah. - Then how do you find? - Kids find videos from like, when I did like, school of rock after school. I'm like, how did you get this? I was 12 seeing it a random pub in Long Island. Like, how on earth did you find this video? - Well, how does somebody develop an artistry when they're being critiqued from song one? - Isn't that right? Yeah, it's been weird and tough, for sure. And it's been a weird thing to navigate where I'm like, I've been wrong from the jump, according to many people. - Why, what do you think? What's the, what's the right, oh you mean, because they've just been critiqued? - Yeah, things they've said, like I've always, like they've always been like, it's not good enough, it's not this, it's not right. And then I feel like it's just this constant thing. That's why now I'm gonna place where I just let go of all that and I just make music selfishly. And I'm like, I wanna make stuff that I enjoy. 'Cause if I enjoy it and no one else does, that's fine. But yeah, it was hard to be critiqued. - Yeah, I mean. - Especially just trying to figure out who you are. - 'Cause when our song "Selfish" has 500 million streams, I think you won. - You know, the, what's the lowest part of your career? - You know, it's weird when people ask me that because my life doesn't really exist without my career. And so they're very intertwined in the sense of like, I signed a 12, I was alive for less time than I've now been assigned to artists prior. You know what I mean? And so it's like a weird thing to think about. So it's like when you ask me what has been my love, my career I think of like what was the worst time in my life because they've just always been swimming together. And I probably would say like around maybe like 17 to 21 those years were pretty dark. And like, I don't know, like can I chalk that up to just being a teenager, growing and I think it's pretty normal to struggle. But then I think there was just a lot just compounding and grappling with the internet and relationships and just all of it. I mean, there was a lot that went on in those years for me and I became like really suicidal and I wasn't sure that I like was even equipped to like live, let alone make music. So I just, it was just a really hard time for me. And I think that that also then informed a lot of what you hear on life support, which if you really listen, like that's the stuff I'm talking about and yeah, it's a struggle. It's hard. I think I just got to a point where I was like, did I ruin my life like was this? And then I go down the spiral of like was this effort, what I really wanted to do was like condition to thinking this is what I wanted to do because it was so early like I went through a pretty intense reflection period where I was just like I don't know what's going on and I'm feeling really overwhelmed by that. I just am proud of that little girl and I am very, very thankful for her getting me here because I feel like that's, it's cool. And I try to honestly like I try to honor, I talk about her because it does feel like that's like a completely different version but I try to like honor it also because I don't want to not talk about what I went through because I feel like I deserve to talk about it and be like that was very real and it was close to killing me. And also like just you know, not to like fully take a left turn but like I'm someone who is just big on like anti-bullying and hate and it's something I'm very passionate about and like I hope to in my life to continue to be like an advocate for all that stuff and there's too many lives lost every year because of that and we are all living for the first time. We're all trying to figure out what we're doing here and especially at those young ages like you are battling so much within yourself to then go to school or to go online and have people just affirm all of the negative things you already think about yourself, it's really difficult. And so yeah, it's just it's something that I went through and I'm proud to be on the other side of it now. - I don't think people realize how brave you have to be to be an artist. - Yeah, especially now with social media. There's a whole other layer on top of it where it's like, I mean, obviously you know it's like so many artists complain about the whole like TikTok of it all where it's like the labels or whoever is like you gotta promote. But even if your label isn't telling you you have to promote on TikTok, you feel like you have to because you're like, you're missing out on such a big opportunity and it can be difficult and then you put yourself out there and the comments are like, this is horrible. You suck, delete this. Like it's, it's difficult and it does take, it does take bravery and I, like I said, I really do applaud my very brave young herself 'cause I think now I could handle it and I am equipped for it but I wouldn't have this thick scan if it wasn't for everything I had been through. So she's the one who really braved the storm. - What do you currently do to prioritize your mental health? - I try to stay off of it as much as I can. I'm still human and I doom scroll on TikTok and you know, no less than the next person but I kind of just-- - Why do we do that? - My goodness, isn't it weird to think about? Like why am I addicted to consuming media of other people and other things all the time? - People you'll never meet, who we don't care about. - What is that in our brains? Like what, what is it? I don't know. - I mean we're reptiles that are just like over, you know, like we're not meant to communicate with more than 200 people in your lifetime. - Oh, geez. - You know, let alone, like your clan is supposed to be 200 people. That's what it was. And so, you know, anybody beyond that, you're starting to add like a random that doesn't, that you won't really remember and you get into a thousand people. It's, you're not meant to perform for a thousand people in the night. That didn't happen until there was amplification. - Oh my goodness. - You don't even mean let alone. And we're not talking about 10,000 people. - This is my thought process by the way, all right? - I mean, I-- - I mean I-- - I lay awake at night just thinking about this. - That's when you say that when I was like, oh, you know, reckless, 750 million streams or whatever it is, 800, I don't know. That that's twice the population in the US that even trying to, as a songwriter explained to my parents when I was like, "No, no, you don't understand." Like I sold as many albums as the city of Buffalo this week. Like the city of, you know, this song is so big. It's like, it's been consumed by the entire Western hemisphere. - I'm scared. - Like when you start saying that kind of stuff, it's hard to, we're not made to wrap your head around these. - No, you can't visualize 700 million. - No, but what you can do is when you play in front of an audience of 200 people and they're all singing every word, why that affects you, you can only be so happy. That doesn't, I don't know that that affects you a whole lot more than 1,000 people or 2,000 or 20,000 people because you're only really able to get so happy. - Totally, there is a threshold. - There's a threshold. - It's weird, it's a weird thing. I mean, I've done like plenty of intimate small shows and whatnot, but like, I think that for me, when I try to dissect that and like, I'm like, okay, so why would, you know, Madison Square Garden make me break down more than, let's say, you know, the first venue there that I played, which I think was Grammar Seat Theater, I'm not sure. But it's like, I don't think that for me at least, it's necessarily about like the, I think we'll obviously also New York, like MSG is the thing. I always looked forward to and was like, I hope I get to do that one day, so that is alone emotional. And then I think when I think about the amount of people that actually took that time out of their day to like purchase a ticket, then plan for the show, then call a car, then get to the venue, wait in line. Like, that to me is a lot of commitment and effort to support me. And so I think that's what makes me like, very emotional about it, but I think you're right. Like, the actual performance aspect is the same, but I think it does kind of shake me where I'm like, wow, there were 15,000 people woke up today and we're like, I'm going to a Madison Beer Concert. That's crazy talk. - Well, you were the college football team. You know, you were the thing they went, you know, you're the, - I'm getting my call. - You're the entertainer. - That's crazy. - Hey, you're performing the Victoria Secret. - Yes, I did. - He did all right. - It happened. - That's cool. - Thank you, it was cool. Maybe I'll do it again. Maybe you just manifested in a way that you didn't even know you were doing it. Why was that cool? I just grew up watching it so it was something that I was like I grew up being like Damn, you know to every girl and I was like I just hope I can even go and see that in person one day let alone Be a prop in the background and I was performing it was very awesome and like some of my favorite artists ever have performed there And I was something I grew up watching and I remember vividly like the carpets and the looks people wore and the the outfits They wore on stage should like actually being a part of the show like that was very very cool I'm I'm proud of you for the sound because I think it's like you you dove deep into some you know musically into something that is It continues to look like you are honing in on who you are as an artist and I think Meeting somebody at 13 in a recording studio and having to navigate the pluses and minuses of Social media. Yeah, the opinions of all the music you've had to record whether you wrote it or not. It's There are very few people that you can talk to that can relate to that. Yeah, but they're there There are lots of people in this industry that have seen the journey and are rooting for you So thanks for doing this podcast. Oh my god. Of course. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it Yeah, I mean we'll we'll we'll do it for the next album to please we'll do it for the next Victoria Yeah, cuz it's gonna happen. That is there. Thank you. All right. Thanks for doing it. Yeah, of course. There you go [BLANK_AUDIO]