Ep. 244: Melanie Martinez | How to Protect Your Creative Spirit in a Commercial World

At a certain point you have to kind of not really give a s**t and just write what comes from the heart. Majors didn't want to sign me because I had never worked with a producer yet. All my songs are on guitar so I'd literally go into meetings just playing like eight minute long songs on guitar. What is Hades to you? Hades to me is just a representation of like toxicity that's seeded into our kind of daily existence. It's the systems in which we are living under essentially. Songwriting is like you're just channeling energy and some days you're really tapped in and then some days you're just thinking too much and it shows. What's the step between that and your journey to the voice? It's TV. It's not music. You know, you don't have to appeal to the masses. What do you say to a kid right now that's, you know, in this era that's trying to do the same thing? Younger artists are going to watch this and I just hope that they understand how important it is. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's world builder builds worlds worldwide, combining her worlds to make a whole universe of incredible art. Dark and whimsical meets bubblegum grunge. She has racked up hundreds of millions of streams sold out. She tours and leads one of music's best cult followings. All the way from the other coast, this artist lifts multiple colorful communities because she cares. And The Writer Is, Melanie Martinez. Hello, hello. Thanks for having me. Hey, Disney Princess is a great song. Thank you. Who are your five favorite Disney princesses? I don't have any favorite Disney princesses. Who's your least favorite? I don't have any least favorites either, to be honest. I don't really think about them much, which is, I guess, weird considering I just put out a song called Disney Princess. But I guess that wasn't the real point of the song. It is not. How do you come up with a concept like that? Where does that song come from? Well, I just thought it would be interesting to. I love writing about different experiences. And with this album particularly, I wanted to write about. All the different traps that I feel are set by kind of patriarchal, toxic, masculine energy. So if Hades is this kind of entity, I wanted to write a song about, like, the entertainment industry. And, you know, what that can feel like as a woman in music. And growing up in it and being so just, I don't know, like, I guess, dazzled by it. But also afraid of it and wanting to just make music and just make art. And there's two different paths, I feel, that happen. Where some people fall into the trap of, like, you know, getting lost. And I'm really grateful that I took the other path and just kind of focused on the art and the music. And not so much the parties and the blah, blah, blah and the whatever that's very typical L.A. And it's just a really heartbreaking song. Because I have a lot of friends who have gone down that path. And, yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, on the surface, it feels very bubble gum, I guess, as you would call it. And very, like, lively and a little kind of fun. But the darker layer behind it is, like, it's just a real trap that exists for women in music. Yeah, I mean, that's the L.A. scene. So it's a very difficult, you know, for actors, musicians, whatever it is, it's hard to fight back from the perceived glamour of, you know, leaning into the celebrity and going to the events and getting free shit. Yeah, which I've never done. And I'm so grateful because I just can't imagine. Like, I'm also pretty, like, I'm very introverted. And so I don't think I could, even if I wanted to or tried, you know, I'm very, like. Like, it's just so scary to me. How are you introverted? I just am. I don't know. Like, do I not seem introverted? Well, I mean, I think. I don't know. There's this weird dichotomy and, you know, artists like yourself, you know. Yeah. The kind of person that can be, you know, it's not like you perform like this. No. You know, you're the opposite of that. So how does, you know, why do you open up on stage? I think because I'm passionate about the art. And I think that's my driving force for everything that I do is it's always about creation. And I think even when I'm writing music, it's the same as when I'm performing. I'm just tapped in and tuned into an energy and I'm in flow and I don't have to think so much. I just get to feel and just exist. And just enjoy it, you know. Yeah. And that's my favorite thing ever. That's like why I do it. Everything else is like, oh, you know, like, ah, like all that is like, ugh. But the best part about it is that I get to create and just really tune in to whatever exists up here and materialize it. And hopefully that can resonate with people. And when it does, it's like the most magical. When you say whatever exists up here, is it spirituality? Is it religion? Is it God? Is it what is it? It's just energy. I think like, like, I don't know if you feel like this when you write music, but like, I just feel like it's it's magical. You know, I'm most of the time it's an out of body experience for me. I'm not even conscious of what's going on. Like I can have title ideas and I can write down a bunch of ideas for maybe a song. Maybe like lyrics or have a melody that just hits me out of nowhere. But most of the time, it's like I just create the space to be able to like tap in and just like feel out what it is. And it's like it's like I always say, like ideas are just energy passing through above our heads. And, you know, we can all I can have the same idea as someone who lives, you know, in a completely different country. And. It's just our fingerprint is not necessarily the idea, but it's how we materialize that idea. So if I have the same idea as someone else and both of us materialize it, it's going to look very different, even though it's going to be a similar kind of message that wants to come across to people. And I think that's really special about songwriting is like that out of body experience of life. It just feels like you're almost like a messenger or a conduit or a channel. Like that's why I look at songwriting like as like and I think performing is. Like that as well, you know, like you're just channeling energy and some days you're really tapped in and then some days you're just thinking too much. You're in your head, you're maybe not in a good mental space and it shows, you know, and that's when you can tell like, oh, they're off their game. It's like it's because they're not tapped in, you know, there's like. So do you write from a, you know, the first simple question would be, are you lyric or melody first? I'm so I'm title first. I write a bunch of titles and then I write like the meaning behind like what that song would be about. So title and then concept for that. And then I write all those out. And then when I go into the studio, a lot of times or when I'm even just at home and writing on guitar or just writing out in the open, I'll I'll have like a little bag and I'll put all those titles in a bag. And I'll just randomly pick which one. That's one method you you pick which one and whatever one you get, you have to write. So I do that sometimes, which is really nice. I love that. That takes like a minimal amount of effort for something that has maximum kind of results because it forces you to to go there. Yeah. And yeah, so I'll just I'll start that way. And then it could be anything like it could. Just a lot of times I do just have melodies that come out of nowhere. And sometimes I'll go back to those voice memos and and be like, maybe we should start with this kind of melody and find chords to that melody first. Sometimes I'll just have the whole thing at once. Like there's a song on Hades called Weight Watchers. That's like one of my favorite songs lyrically. But the melody was actually the thing that was I was like in a hotel room on tour and it was just like pouring out of me. And I. I was just singing it over and over again. And then I just started to write lyrics to that melody. And then I brought it in like a month later after tour to CJ in the studio and was like, we have to find chords for this and figure it out. And it just happened really effortlessly. But a lot of times in the studio, yeah, it could be a drum groove. And I'll just have just like sometimes actually my favorite thing is just a drum groove, no chords, no nothing. And just melodies will just start to form. And then you're not locked into a grid, you know. Do you capture ideas? on voice notes where you just run the voice note or are you you know do you have a good memory when you come up with cool ideas like how do you capture this fleeting art that's in the ether um sometimes i will i'll record something and then i'll forget about it and then months later i'll have the same melody come up and i'm like and then i'll look back and i'm like that was literally the same exact melody from like months ago that i never looked at it's so weird it's so weird the thing is like i don't know if you're like this but when it's when you know obviously you perform a lot of the songs that you release that makes sense but there's something about that creative process of it's just you and your voice notes like having this dialogue trying to refine an idea does it take you a long time to write songs um no it doesn't actually uh i'm once i'm in that flow i just i write i actually write record and like the first demo is pretty much done and then i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm how it ends up sounding with a little bit of extra additional production that all the vocals and the song and everything from any album of mine is literally from first day always no way yes like that is how it is do you track your own vocals or is it usually when you're with well when i'm with cj he has a home studio so whenever i work with him i just i get to track there which is nice to be at home yeah and then um but for portals i did track a lot of my own um because it was like covid as well and i had an excuse to just be like oh you know we have to social distance so i have to stay at home oh like for me i was like i was always staying at home so it just was so much easier to just be like i can't go i'm so sorry um and yeah so i did i did record some of my vocals then but i like recording the song cj it's really fun let's start uh let's start telling your story a little bit uh how you how we got to this point you know um first of all for those who are living under a rock what are what are some songs that people would know melanie martinez from probably first album i think cry baby um which a lot of those songs i wrote when i was really young i was like 18 19 um so yeah i would say i don't know like uh play date got really big like years later off like tiktok or something so people probably would know from that song um soap pity party dollhouse was like the first song ever put out yeah um a lot of the songs on that record yeah um okay so uh you know let's let's let's talk about it you were you were born i was born i was born in new york um both my parents uh so my mom was born to make a republic she moved to new york my dad was born in brooklyn he's puerto rican both his parents grew up in puerto rico both my parents grew up in the projects in new york and then they moved to long island with me when i was four so i was born in historic queens moved to long island i was four to baldwin um which if you don't know is like a tiny kind of passing town in long island actually funny enough found out during portal's era me and cj knew each other for years and we didn't know that we grew up literally like 15 minutes away from each other and we didn't know that we grew up literally like 15 minutes away from each other a whole lives which is so weird amazing um i love that it's so serendipitous but yeah i grew up in new york um and i've always just i always was trying to write poems since i was a kid since i could write i was just i would literally write poems about everything that was going on in my life i would just lock myself in my room and just if i heard my parents fighting i would like write them a whole poem about it and then present it to them like as like a child and they'd be like oh like this is like so intense how old were you when you were doing that um i mean as as long as i could write so i'm pretty sure like i was like six and seven yeah literally yeah like seven eight writing poems and drawing pictures and then cutting them out and laminating them like little witches and like weird characters and stuff and like full-on stories just like making little books and yeah and um neither of my parents make music my dad listened to a lot of music growing up and he always wanted to like um he listened to a lot of like old school hip-hop but then also listened to like the beatles and bgs and like classics fleawood mac like just any he loved everything so um i was just always around that and then also like a lot of latin music too so like aventura like um so like yeah just it was just such a mix really but did you guys did you speak spanish at all growing up um no so my parents didn't teach me spanish uh or me or my brother my brother but um uh i i yeah i'm embarrassed about it but it is one of those things it is one of those things older younger brother younger yeah but so i um yeah so i always kind of was writing and drawing and creating i was really into photography when i was a teenager um but i also loved singing and i knew that i wanted to sing since i was like five i like wrote in my little things like what do you want to be when you grow up uh i wrote singer at five and i knew that so um that that's always been a thing but um i always wanted to learn how to play guitar but um my parents couldn't afford to get me a guitar so my uncles pitched in at some point um and got me um a nice guitar a taylor and um and i taught myself through youtube tutorials um how to just how old were you at that point i was probably like 13 14 were your parents supportive of you being wanting to be a singer they were supportive of me doing any kind of art or music they they just they were i mean they're so encouraging my parents were amazing so i got really lucky in that way um they definitely knew i wasn't going to go to college they were like you know they're like we can't afford college so like music art great like let's let's figure that out for you like that's that sounds great um i didn't even take my sats because i knew i wasn't gonna go to college wow yeah so um everything was great and i was like i'm gonna go to college all like music art that was there was no plan b zero plan b was it photography or music or was always going to be music um i loved both so much i loved the visual medium of photography and um but in my mind i thought and i loved watching music videos so i just thought like you know if i could combine the two which you can as a music artist then i'll be happy for the rest of my life because then i can just keep doing that um there are a lot of artists that wish they that attempt to do what you've done as far as uh you know desmond child was on this years ago i don't know if you know desmond but you know living on a prayer to uh you know living la vida loca all these you know big songs with pop stars in the 80s 90s and uh he always he was talking about archetypes and i always remember that conversation that when you think of madonna that she went from this like angel this sort of bad angel to like dark shit to angel and you look at lady gaga all the way dark to all the way light and all but just going all the way in you know the worlds that they live in they they played superheroes they played these they went all the way there and it's so hard for artists to commit to giving a theatrical you performance and a theatrical image and going being just being it and not it seems so authentic yeah you know where does that where does the authenticity and being able to to dream up these worlds that you've built you know at what point were you combining the music that you liked with the visual medium that you liked um well i just i don't know if i ever got the chance to do it until i put out dollhouse um when i put out dollhouse it was independent it was after i was on the voice and um i was having all these like label meetings but nobody like majors didn't want to sign me because i had never worked with a producer yet i was just all all my songs are on guitar so i'd literally go into meetings just playing like eight minute long songs on guitar so it was kind of just like this is you're not ready you know like you're not really there yet um which was fair and um and then i would go to like indie labels and they'd be like you were just on this huge like you know reality like singing competition show like we don't want anything to do with it i was like okay cool so i'm gonna just work on making i'm just gonna make music and i just didn't really think about that for a little bit and like for for like a year or so um i was just kind of uh trying to work with producers for the first time which was really interesting and um i worked with tim and jeremy kinetic someone love and um and it was really sweet being able to kind of just throw ideas against the wall and like they no idea was too weird and they were just they were just down and um it was really exciting to play with sounds and and i had this whole idea of like you know wanting to make an album about um you know a childhood themed album and i was like i'm gonna make this album and i'm gonna make this album and i'm gonna make this album because i was just processing as a teenager who just went on this show like processing um you know childhood and growing up and the growing pains and um and i i've there were so many things I wanted to write about and I just thought it would be interesting to kind of write about it through this kind of perspective and lens that I was kind of going through. And, um, sorry to interrupt, but the, what we sort of call in the music industry, blind dating, where you end up having to write with all these people you've never been in a room with and you have to show up. And so you have this idea of who you are as an artist, but you're walking in a room with people you've never met before, you know, and, and trying to execute that artistic vision. What's it, what was it like for you to be part of the blind dating scene? Well, that came after. So like then, so when I was working with them, I made a lot of that album and then, um, I went back to Atlantic after they were like, you're not ready. And, um, uh, came back with pretty much half the album done and was like, this is, this is what the album is and I put out the dollhouse single and I made that video with friends, uh, crowdfunded at $16,000 and, um, made the music video and I made like all the little kitchen sets and stuff in my backyard out of cardboard and, uh, air and spray paint and stuff. And, um, and just, yeah, that was the first time I was able to back to the, the first question that you asked, um, that was the first time I was able to mix a visual medium with, um, music. And it was so exciting and, um, so special. Uh, and then, so yeah, but back to the second question you just asked, um, with, uh, blind dating and, and music that didn't come until after I was signed. So, so I had, I had a really good flow with Tim and Jeremy and then, and then that's what happens is like, you have a good flow. And instead of, uh, the label being like, you should just continue to do that and see what happens. Or like, let's put you in with everyone. And you're like, Oh, okay. I'll try. But you know, it's, it doesn't always, you don't always have that magic with everyone, you know? So I was going into a bunch of rooms and I was writing songs, but I just, I knew in my gut, like which songs really resonated with me. And, um, there was a lot of unreleased songs from that era because I was just being thrown into so many sessions that just weren't the right fit. Well, shout out Tim and Jeremy. Their studio is all of five houses down the street from here. Yeah. Um, uh, and we haven't seen Tim visit, uh, this set since, uh, uh, last week. Um, so let's go back a little bit. You're cause I jumped forward. Your uncles get you a guitar. They gave you the Taylor. You, you teach yourself using YouTube. A few chords, which I, by the way, still literally only know enough to write. Um, and just everything is by ear at a certain point too. So like I'm not the most skilled guitar player, even to this day. I just kind of use it to write. It's just a way to get the ideas across. Sometimes that makes the best writers. And if you have too many options, a lot of times you're like, I don't know what's happening here, but when you have limited amount of chords to use, you know, you may be focused on other things like lyrics and melodies and things that might matter more. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like after that point, I, uh, I don't, I don't even know. I, I just kind of, um, yeah, I was just writing music, writing a bunch of songs. What's the first song you wrote? Oh God, I cannot remember at all. You can't or you won't? No, I actually can't. But I know I wrote, I mean, at that time I was like watching just a lot of like law and order and like really like intense. Like I was like, again, I stayed home most of the time. So like I didn't have a lot of life experiences. I was a teenager. Were you in New York still at this time? I was in Long Island. Yeah. I mean, Long Island. Yeah. Um, and so I just wrote about it. So I wrote about anything and everything. It could be like, again, like anything that, like I was experiencing through like witnessing friends or like their parents were going through something where I heard about this one thing that whatever, it could be anything like, again, I had never done drugs and I still haven't. But when I was younger, I was like a teenager writing about like drug addiction after like writing or after reading this book, um, called like go ask Alice or something for school. It was like, uh, a school thing or whatever. And they're like, you should write, uh, can you, you know, you come back with an essay or whatever. And I was like, can I just write a song about this? Because I just, it's so much easier. And then I was able to do that, um, for school. So like, it started kind of in that way, like in retrospect, you know, I liked doing it. But then I, I remember having this like just horrible feeling of, oh no, but I have to sing it for the class. Like, uh, you know, you get stage fright, um, only when it's like, for some reason I'm more with new people, especially like settings like this, where it's like a few people in a room. I'm like a little bit more like shy and like introverted, but with a lot of people, like a huge crowd, it's just such a different thing. Yeah. So we should have done this with a thousand people. Probably. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, we'll just cram them in next time. Um, what was it? What's the first song that you remember? Um, uh, well, I would say the first one. The first song ever was definitely that song for that book for, but for school. What was the response when you played for the class? Um, I don't know. I got bullied a lot in, in school. So it was kind of like, like I would like, I have to carry my guitar and I was already like being bullied. So it was like, so, so annoying, but like you're carrying a guitar and everybody's like, oh, like, oh, you want to, you're going to bring a guitar. You're going to sing. It's like just stupid, you know, like whatever. So like you, you know, you can't win when you're a teenager. You're just, you want to be yourself. You know, people are gonna make fun of you. It is what it is. Like, I feel bad for kids now because back then it was, oh my God, it was so rough. But now with like social media too, I can't imagine what kids are going through. It's like. What, what would you say to teenage Melanie right now? Who's about to walk in and play that song? You made the right decisions, you know, like you stayed home and you created and you had your close friends and they're still, you know, your best friends to this day. Like you, you did what you should have done. And also like, I don't, I don't know. It's, I don't know if I would really say much. It's. Yeah. What do you say to a kid right now? That's, you know, in this era, that's trying to do the same thing. Literally throw your phone into a river. And look at the four corners of the walls that you're, you know, you're living in and remember that that's your reality and just continue to focus on your passions. Hone in on your craft. If you have something that you really want to do, just put little baby steps in every day to learn how to do that thing and just be yourself. Just be yourself. Yeah. I love that so much because I. It's hard to. It's just so hard to explain to people who've grown up with a phone in front of their face that that isn't reality. That's your phone. Yeah. And there's other things. It's a mirrored version of. Yeah. Something else. Yeah, exactly. So what's the step between that and, you know, obviously your journey to the voice? Oh my God. It's so, so long. So. Long story short. If I can do that. I don't know how. It could be long. Okay. Just story. Okay. So I didn't watch a lot of those shows growing up, but my parents did. And I would just kind of make songs and put them on YouTube and they'd have like 30 views or something like it was like just just to, you know, it'd be covers or whatever it was. Are they all still up there? No. No, they're not. And yeah. And then my parents were like, you should audition for this show called The Voice. And there was an open call at Javits Center. And we went and my mom, my dad took me, but then the car broke down right before the tunnel. And so we had to, me and my mom had to hitchhike a cab and someone finally stopped for us. And we got there, waited on a two hour line. And I was like in a. Group of like 10 people. I was like the youngest person there. It was like so awkward and like uncomfortable. And I sang O Comely by Neutral Milk Hotel, which is a very long song and not everyone's like singing Celine Dion. And like, I'm like, you know, it was like such a random. Why? I just loved that song. I just loved it. I loved singing it. I loved. I don't know why. I just it felt good in my range. I sang it on guitar all the time. It was just one of those. So anyway, and then I things just kept progressing and like they're just kept doing callbacks or whatever. Went to L.A. for the first time and I was a minor. So my dad had to come with me and luckily he was able to. And it was an interesting experience. I'll leave it at that. The whole. Show and everything. It's TV. It's not music, you know. And that's the that's the main thing is like I didn't really get to learn about music or songwriting or anything that I actually wanted to learn about. It was just like, you know, TV and it's hard to explain. You know, it's a show where the judges win. You know, like no, no contestant, very few contestants can win a show where there's not even an infrastructure if you do win that win the show to like help that person pursue a career in music. And I mean, you have to really know who you are as an artist to be on a show like that. And it's it's not easy to come off of a show like that and actually make a real substantial career for yourself as an artist and music. I mean, you could probably name maybe nobody else. Do you know what I mean? It is. Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, it's difficult. And like I said, like it's the same dilemma, too. When I got off the show is like major labels were like, you know, we don't understand. And then indie labels were like, you're too this is too much, you know, too mainstream. Like, that's not what we do. So it's like a little bit of a weird back and forth. And again, you just have to know who you are. And again, you just have to know who you are as an artist. And that's the main main thing. Like, I would recommend for like any, you know, younger artists out there who are like debating, should I go on a show like that? You know, should I not? Don't do it. Like, just don't like just keep making music like the Internet exists. Like, put your stuff out there, you know, get creative, make fun videos with your friends and just, again, be yourself. You know, that's it. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What does it have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting. For songwriters, NMPA, thank you for fighting for us, too. OK, so I use Splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice. But if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of. But they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite, unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use Splice as an AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators. And that is Splice. Yeah, the people who literally the people who win those shows don't have an avenue. Like there used to be when American Idol started 19 Entertainment. It was a record label that that these winners would get signed to. And they would they would act as your management, your record company. And they they had juice like they could actually get songs played and radio mattered and things like they could move somebody's career forward. And literally now, if you win these shows, there's not even a necessarily like a record label you can sign to or a management company. And you win this and you walk off stage and you're like. There was there's nothing, you know, I don't I I know I know too much about how that process works. And it's it's it's definitely a it's tough to watch a song with a recent winner who is like the reality is like you they win the show and there's literally not a record label that for them to sign to. So, you know, they're signed to a label in another country, you know, a subsidiary. It's like it's so it's it's just. It's just not what people think it is. No, it's not. Yeah. Did you what did you learn from the show that is positive? I think getting comfortable with performing because you have to perform on live television. And that's crazy to go from to go. I mean, to go from like, I'm not, you know, like I have to perform a song only, you know, a few years earlier to be performing a song for your classroom. Yeah. And then be like, hey, here are 20 million. People who are tuning in every week. Yeah, it was really weird. But you get more comfortable and it it definitely helped with performing for sure. And stage fright and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, what a crazy. How do you not get nervous for a performance on live TV for tens of millions of people? I mean, I was so nervous. I was a teenager, you know, of course. I was like, what is happening right now? Like, is this real life? This is so weird. All this. This is so weird. Yeah. So. So Dahlhaus, when you do that, you know, the it's probably the first time that I saw what you were doing. And it was so exciting because it was like it's like a lot of great artists. It was like it was you. You bring us into a world. It was like a movie. It was a you know, you you just went like I was saying before, you just went all the way there and you're so fearless. You just went all the way there and you know, you just went all the way there and you're so fearless. And doing that. And it was so exciting to see somebody with the chutzpah, if you will, to go and and do this. Did you feel like you were going against the grain or did you feel like you were just being you? I was just being myself. I had no concept of what existed at that time, what people were doing, what was the right thing to do in art and music. I didn't know. Like, I wasn't thinking about anything. But creating like I would have an idea, I would materialize it. I had an idea and materialize it. And I tried to keep that the same now, even though it's been years later. And a lot of times I know with people's first record, they have that kind of internal energy where they're inspired and they're free and from like other people's opinions because nobody knows who they are yet. And and that's how a lot of the best albums are made because and people was like, oh, the first out their first album was so amazing. Their first album was so amazing. It's because they didn't have the outside noise and they were just being they were just doing. So I try to keep that the same, you know, even though I'm like, I'm 30 now and it's like such a different world in music. At that time, streaming wasn't a thing. And, you know, it's it's really it's it's hard to keep that process the same. And tell me about the day you wrote Dollhouse, what happened? Um, I just remember me and Tim and Jeremy were just so excited. It was just so much like there was just so much energy. That was the first song that we wrote together. That was that was literally. Yeah, actually. First song we wrote together. I'm pretty sure was Dollhouse. That might have been our first session together. Crazy. It sometimes happens like that. I feel like when there's the pressure of the first session, maybe it's because there's no pressure. Yeah. Like maybe it's because you also kind of. I want to turn it on for that that day to prove that, like, well, I think I think it's mostly just the fact that it's everything so new, you know, like these are new people. It's like new ideas and new feel so good. You know, there's so much fresh energy. And so you're just kind of like going with the flow. And but yeah, like then putting out that album was so special and and rewarding because I got to. Really pushed to make a music video for every song, which the label did not agree to at first. They were like, they were like, you know, I think the normal is like two music videos per album cycle or something. And I was like, I really want to make a music video for every song, please. Like, this is so important to have the story and, you know, the visual element. So. So I really like I remember just. Sending so many music video treatments and just being like, I really think this would be really great for the album, like trying to like talk in their language, like this would be really good for the album. Like, I think it would help. And it did, though. I mean, like a lot of people. That's how. That's how people discovered you is through the visual bringing us into this world with the music's amazing. You know, it it really was. The label should thank you for that. But I think they've been so since that album, like. They were just so supportive of the visual element afterwards. Like, it was really like a night and day thing from first signing. Obviously, I had to really prove that I was also capable because I had never directed anything for the first time. And they were like also giving me that opportunity to do that. And I think that could be scary for them. Like, they're like, this is a young artist who just started and wants to direct videos, even though she's never done that. But I just knew exactly what I wanted. And. And I think that they felt that and gave me that chance. So it just became, you know, one video, then the next and the next and the next. And before I knew it, I was able to finally complete the 13. music videos for that album and then and then um and it took years to finally to get all that moving and then um and then my second album my second album i was like i want to make a movie they were like what like um that's gonna be a lot of money is the only thing that they were thinking about but um are these larger than life characters a form of armor um i think every artist has some sort of alter ego or like some some like energy of wanting to perform in characters so that you can like i don't know like kind of step away it's good to i think it's good to separate when you're an artist it's good to separate your personal you from artist you because it's just i don't know i feel like it's good to keep things for yourself you know to have your character you know that was a three album character i had like that whole trilogy so it was cry baby k through 12 and portals and um her journey through that so it was like her childhood into school years which was like really also a lot of processing for me like reflecting on being bullied in school and that whole kind of thing but also recognizing school as a concept of the world and our everyday you know the people the type of people you encounter as an adult so just kind of reflecting on that as well and um and then portals was after i had been reading like so many um past life regression therapy books and like hypnotherapy books on like like the in between of like life and death like that weird space like i was like obsessed with that for a few years so um so then after with portals i was like reading um i was reading about just the stages uh that people talk about in hypnotherapy where they go from uh death all the way back to incarnation again and there's and i was reading different books and kind of crossing over like different stages from different books that kind of resonated with one another or seemed similar and create a storyline and that's what each track goes down the album goes from death all the way back to birth like through that hypnotherapy journey that i read about so do you write short stories before you go into outlining what the songs are going to be um like how do you establish in your albums that tell stories and through this journey of this character how did you design those the order of songs in which they were written that just that all comes naturally it's all intuition i don't i it's it happens simultaneously so you know when you're going to the studio i need to write this in the story in the order or is it not like that no sometimes it is sometimes there's missing puzzle pieces and then sometimes it's like an afterthought sometimes it's like oh like i actually think that this part of the story makes more sense here and you know like it's it's kind of a puzzle piece and it happens intuitively but with this current album uh hades it was kind of like it was a little bit of both at the same time i was writing uh the story because it's it's also like there's like a film script as well that um for hades that i'm i'm working on trying to get materialized um but that's something that will come later um but it's that was like a mix of story character and also writing the songs prior and fitting that into the story that i was writing if that makes sense so it's like i wrote a bunch of songs and then at a certain point i started writing the story and then i started to kind of piece together the track list through that if that makes sense yeah i mean in this next segment of what would cj baron ask melanie martinez and the writer is uh the producer of of hades amongst obviously other albums you've done but he said you once told me that when writing about serious topics like most of hades you sometimes have to dose it with a little sugar so the medicine goes down how do you balance delivering such heavy meaningful themes while still crafting hooks that are so catchy and accessible hmm um wow cj um i i think that i don't know i always look at some it's again it's out of body right so a lot of times i don't even really know it's happening at the same time there's a melody that's just non-stop in my head and i'm naturally sounding out like kind of syllables that i can piece certain words together through like little if i'm writing little sections of like poems even um and i'm trying to tell the story it's it's a difficult thing to talk about serious subject matter and topics that are very intense without coming off like preachy or um like corny so i think that's a hard one for people is like how do you write about this without sounding really corny you know and maybe i do i don't i don't know but i just i think that at a certain point you have to kind of not really give a shit and just write what comes from the heart and if people think that it's like comes off corny or whatever because you sound like you care i think that's fine you know um and i think that's the worry that a lot of songwriters have is like they want to write something that is accessible to everyone and they want people everywhere at any time to resonate with it and so they tend to generalize and water down and water down until it becomes what is it you know right um and i think it's i think it's cool to care and i think it's okay to share your lens on the world even if it is a temporary lens you know even if in 10 years you're going to outgrow that lens i think that's what makes music special it's a time stamp in your life and so i try not to i try not to think too much about it i try not to think too much about um how the message is going to come across and just say the message and trust that the melodies that feel so good and juicy will sit perfectly on top of that message and they'll invite the right ears interesting yeah totally um going back to cry baby that uh you know you're now signed at this point this album comes out and it kills it it does so well do you start feeling the pressure of commercialism you know at any point in that process no the commercialism kind of follows your art which is unique in in a system it's like i think people listen to your music and want to see you live they go to see you and hear you you know like it was it's part of that world building yeah i don't know i don't i i don't really think much about the commercial aspect i i do think about creating though and i think that you know uh it can go hand in hand if you're a world building type of artist because when you're world building you're not just you know writing music and making music videos and um thinking of other visuals or whatever you're also thinking about okay like how does the merch fit into this world you know and so that is a commercial aspect that do you design all the merch um i'm very i'm very particular about the merch i don't like hand design all but i love like commissioning artists and stuff for it and um but like everything down to like a tracklist reveal right it's like i like finding you know cool artists um like phoebe who i just put out the tracklist reveal for hades today and it's like a stop motion animation it's like a stop motion animation it's like a stop motion animation it's like one of my favorite things ever and it's so it's so amazing because like she she like worked so hard and like crafted everything with her hands you know and that's like that tactile practical um art is is my favorite thing ever so um so i think when you're a world builder i think the commercial aspect depending on how you look at it if you don't look at it as just like oh these are just products and blah blah it's like no it's like it's a part of the world you know it's it's part of the um the process it's such like a dream career from the outside to be able to be yourself as an artist and to really do art do you feel like you're living a dream do you feel are you happy i am very happy actually um i don't think i always was but i do think that maybe it's like 30s like i'm like i'm like i just turned 30 last year and i'm like i'm in my 30s you know um but i don't know maybe it is just getting older and when you really prioritize the right things like my priorities in life have have affected my mental health in a tremendous way. Like, you know, I, I wake up, I play like a weird meditation frequency music in the morning, you know, um, you know, I have an amazing dog who's lovely and great. What kind of dog? Frenchie. Um, but she's, so I journal, I have like a whole, I do the whole, you know, the washi tape and the highlighters and all the stickers. I have a sticker printer, crazy sticker game. Oh my God. Like you wouldn't believe. Um, so I just, I get to just kind of craft the day in a creative way and make art, you know, paint ceramics, hang with friends and create with them and, um, just be in nature. You know, I'm, I live in nature and so it's like, where do you live right now? I mean, you don't have to give me your address, but like, what does that mean? I live in the mountains and the canyons. In a canyon. Um, um, but yeah, so yeah. So I, I think that priorities really affect my mental health and my priorities are taking care of, yeah, my health and my creative health, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, all of the pillars of health. Just what can I do each day to keep myself, you know, peaceful. And, and sane in a very scary world and a scary, uh, industry. And I think just prioritizing those things has made me very happy. What about this industry is scary? I think as an artist, you can feel very disposable. No, I mean, it's like, it's, it's hard not to, you know, like you could feel like, I mean, even being on a label, it's kind of like everything feels fleeting a bit. I've heard people who like, you know, had amazing success in their career. And, you know, then at some point, like maybe their numbers dipped down, maybe people didn't resonate with their music as much. And, and then the label didn't want to work with them anymore or whatever. There's so many stories like that, that you hear. So I think the fact that it's like, it's fleeting also as a woman as well. Like you never know, like, is it my youth that, you know, like when I get older and I, my whatever, youth starts to fade. And there's so many aspects that I think you can kind of think about. But I, but I think, again, prioritizing your health in every single way is like a game changer as an artist. Well, you know, I think Sia, obviously, the first thing that happened when she was, I believe, in her early 30s, but like when she really broke as a pop star, she was in her 40s. Yeah, which is amazing. You know, it's like, you have an ecosystem in and of itself that I think the, I think the fleeting part, well, it's all fleeting, right? It is, yeah. So with a grain of salt, like, yeah, all, I mean, all of us are going to come and go. So it's fine. Whatever that is. We're all going to die one day. Yeah, if it's scary, we're all going to die one day. And the end. It's true. That's the end of this interview. But if you, you know, it's, you can't, most artists who are assigned to a label don't have their own ecosystem. So, and they're not driving the, they don't have the curation skills to put together collections of records and albums that in and of themselves have their own world. This is the importance of world building now more so than ever. You're the kind of artist that a label would kill for because you're not a singles artist who is competing. You're not competing. You're not playing the same game as other artists. Do you not see that? I mean, I'm not playing a game period, you know, which I think is actually the bigger, the bigger picture. It's like, it's like, yeah, I don't know. I'm always good at the thing is I'm always going to make art. I'm always going to make art. It doesn't matter if I'm signed to a label, if I'm independent, whatever. Like, And that's the number one thing. I like, yeah, I know, like, obviously, again, I want to say like, younger artists are going to watch this. And I just, I just hope that they understand how, like, important it is to just focus on your craft, focus on the art, focus on the music, focus on being yourself, because whatever, you know, whoever you are, it's like, there's other people like you. So just find like minded people, you don't have to appeal to the masses, you don't have to be everyone's cup of tea, you know, just find, find your community of people who resonate. It's very important. When Portals came out, it was widely accepted in a commercial way. And yet it was so like, it just continued to tell the story that this arc that you're talking about. It also, during that time, you crossed 10 billion streams total or something wild like that. I don't know. I didn't even know about it. I'm telling you. Okay. And it's crazy. That's almost like everybody on the planet listening to your songs twice. I don't even understand it, to be honest. Like, like, I don't understand any of the number stuff. I don't get it. I actually don't understand it. When do you, you know, you've played the biggest venues you can play in the United States. Um, what is the point where you recognize how big your audience is? I don't know if I have the right lens to understand, because I'm not looking at it like that. I don't know. I don't know how to describe that. But like, the only reason why I knew that like, okay, things are becoming very real and different now is because I was able to understand that. I was able to play Madison Square Garden, which growing up in New York is like fucking crazy, you know. And then like, but even when my, my agent was like, oh, he was like, you know, we're going to put up tickets for Madison Square Garden. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, what are you doing? You can't do that. Like, that's not, that's not where we're at. He's like, that's, that's what we're doing. That's where we're at. And I was like, no, that doesn't, I'm so scared because I was like, there's no way that people are going to buy tickets. Like, I just didn't, I didn't think that that was possible. And so it was even weirder when he said that it sold out and they were going to put up another night. I was like, no, don't do that. I'm so scared. Please don't do that. And, and then that sold out too. And I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked. I couldn't believe it. And it makes me, it makes me so emotional because I really just like, yeah, I just never, I never thought that that was going to be possible. So I'm really grateful. What was it like to take a bow on the stage the first night? Oh God, I was a wreck. I was an emotional wreck. My dad cried. My manager cried. Everyone was crying. Everyone was just crying. And it was like a love fest and it was very emotional. Yeah. What was it like taking a bow on the second night? I just, again, it's just, it was surreal. It was surreal. The whole thing was surreal. My whole family was there. My grandma came. It was amazing. It was beautiful. Let's talk about Hades. Yeah. Possession's a cool song. Thanks. Thank you. That was the first song that we wrote actually for the whole process. That was, I know, I actually checked this. I got the, the bounce back on, it was February 2022. You were saying that this, that a lot of this is sort of about the patriarchy and the music business. It's, it's really just like traps, you know? It's like traps that are set in the world. So I have a lot of different songs and topics on Hades. Um, so, um. What is it about Hades that inspires you? I just, I think that it was so exciting to be able to write about all the worst things that exist in the world. Like, what amazing opportunity, you know? I was like, I want to write a dystopian album. And at first I thought I was going to be writing this kind of future, you know, dystopian future. Yeah. Kind of record where I was creating a story about what's going to happen. And like, I ended up realizing that a lot of the songs I was writing were just a reflection of what's going on today. And, um, and yeah, so I tried to write about all the worst things that I could think about. Cathartic. I'm sure. The, um, how much of Hades, the album, should we expect things like, did you get into the Greek mythology around like Orpheus? And that kind of thing? Or it's more Hades as in like the devil and what that brings? Like, what, what is Hades to you? Hades to me is just a, like, really awful, scary, demonic entity that is very patriarchal. And it's like a representation of like, like, toxicity and just that's seeded into our kind of daily existence, you know? Um, yeah, it's, it's the systems in which we are living under, essentially. Um, yeah. What could change in, in the system that we're living under that would make it. listen I don't have all the answers man I just write music so don't ask me I don't know but but I um but I will say and I I have told like at least a little bit um about this I said something about this but um but I actually it's a I don't know if this is the place to reveal this but whatever it doesn't really matter it's it's actually a double album so Hades is the dystopian album and there's a utopian album that will come later oh very cool yeah so you heard it here first yeah um the um what are your favorite songs in Hades at the moment um oh my god so many so I god this is so hard um I really love Uncanny Valley that was the last song that made the record I wrote it with Malay and that was like we had like a couple of um different weeks of sessions um one of the sessions was for one week was for the utopian album and I wrote it with Malay and I wrote it with Malay and I wrote it with the utopian album and then um I really wanted to write one more song for Hades last second and so we ended up making Uncanny Valley which was so special um and then why the collaboration with um I I got actually connected with him um through Jeff uh at Atlantic and yeah and I it was a kind of a moment of like I don't know me and CJ were writing like I don't even know too too much we were writing like I don't even know like I don't even know like I don't even know we were writing Monday through Friday every single day like it was you know 11 to you know midnight basically like it was just crazy so at a certain point I was like let's give this let's give this a break for a second and let me go like step in with someone new like brand new energy um and Malay was amazing to work with and we wrote so many songs together and um but yeah so that's one of my one of my faves um I also love I mentioned earlier Weight Watchers um lyrically like just so such an important song um and came so naturally what's it about um well it's about Weight Watchers no it's it's I mean I could I could say the lyrics if you want yeah please okay great um okay uh everyone's trying to get it off faster supplement master a fistful should work soup in the smoothies to combat disaster carbs don't burn fast enough for what it's worth didn't think I changed too much till they said it a thread on subreddit is what I'm reduced to needles to needlessly say it's the rapture because even I bite my nails wondering if I should and it's like hey hey hey Weight Watchers hey are you watching me how normal it is to contour and contract all my muscles remembering to still arch my back and I gua sha each day but my face still has fat someone told me their doctor should get rid of that but I've already got a doctor a surgeon who knows me tongue-in-cheek and I'm like I don't know what I'm doing I don't know what I'm doing hanging down anesthesia while he cut me and implanted 500 cc of sexy I won't lie to you that man really blessed me hey hey hey hey Weight Watchers hey are you watching me um how normal it is to skip lunch and dessert and yet somehow my stomach sticks out of my skirt so I work out each day but I don't think it works so I research to see if the surgery hurts and it continues on but you'll you get the gist of what it's about but it's it's a really and it's and it's like just you know waltz like that three four vibe it's just it's really special and um I love that one I love grudges it's like feminine rage it's just like you know like and that emotion I think is really important as well um I love possession um and I think it's great to talk about that kind of dynamic um in relationships like where like control can um really take over and um anyone who's like been in any kind of like controlling relationship or whatever like knows like that that song really hits and um is very special as well um oh my god there's so many songs that I love on Hades like uh I'm like blanking I wish I could like look at the track it's so it's so great to um this is this is the best moment of uh for me the just that nobody knows what nobody knows what you have yet you know like the world hasn't experienced it yet and you can just be like passionately living in this yeah it's exciting do you have you know it almost feels like there's method acting like you're living in this world while you're writing it is it is that accurate like do you live in the worlds in which you no I mean I live in I live in art like I like surrounding myself with art and creation but as far as like each album goes because every album is so distinct I'm not going to be able to do it all at once I'm not like taking on whatever like energy that album is because that would be way too intense I think um and every album is so different do you feel like uh you as a role model are responsible for communicating ideas for specific I don't think listeners I don't think that being an artist like if I don't think that if you're an artist you're like necessarily responsible or like should be a role model or whatever I think that people should just be themselves and create and I I think that you should strive to be a good person and in general in life um and but as far as being an artist and like a role model I don't think about that I just again I think about being myself because that'll inspire other people to be themselves I think we have too many young people especially who are trying to be someone else and they want to be whatever they see online and they think that's better and and it you grow up hating yourself that way you know it's not healthy and I just I want to inspire people to be themselves I want them to be as weird and out there and silly and just bold and unapologetic as possible that's that's what I want I hope that that's what I inspire in people yeah I can't imagine you know that the kid who walks into the English class to sing the song you know what would she say to you now versus the other way around what do you think she would say where you are I don't know that makes me emotional I don't know like I think I think she'd be really really happy and really proud yeah yeah I mean you've earned so much respect because you've been so unafraid maybe you've been afraid you know I mean who isn't you know who isn't I think it's you just you've just done it with such grace and had such bravery in in choosing to do real art and uh it it as a songwriter who makes who works with a lot of artists and you know I send songs out for people to cut I you know sometimes try you try to get that you're aiming just for hits and then on the side you're trying to be an artist that does stuff that means something and you try to you try so hard I think I think what you do is inspiring to a lot of us who are trying to do you're right you know it's it's just inspired it's inspiring thanks we're gonna do rapid fire and then I promise I'll let you go until the next album at least who are your inspirations oh um I love Fiona Apple I love Bjork um I I love so many artists but I would say those two those two are my favorites let's go with songs let's go pacifier tell me what rapid fire whatever comes off the top of your head what does that song mean to you um I loved that session that was actually one of the random sessions what's the session of pacifier um I got put into a room for the first time with Chloe Angelides and Michael Keenan and um and we just all vibed and got along so well and it was super effortless and yeah and just like good friends like good people like yeah love Chloe yeah um tell me about writing play date um that one that one actually was like I think it was one that I had like if I remember quickly I had kind of like some stuff already written out and was like brought it in like maybe I can embellish and work on this kind of thing that was also a random session um that one was more of a struggle to write I think but like it took longer that it wasn't as effortless but um I don't I don't know I mean it's so this was so long ago it's so long like thinking about those sessions too I was like just you know very young and just making so much stuff all the time it was a lot what are your thoughts on social media I think it's I think it's social media I don't know I mean it is it is what it is it is what you make of it I guess it depends on your lens and your perspective but my lens and my perspective on it is I stay off of it and I focus on real life and I think more people should do that as well I think it's healthy and good what are your thoughts on AI um hmm I think that it's bad uh that people are using AI for like Like, you know, like that's their that's like a final kind of thing that they're putting out there and saying, I made this thing, you know, like, I think that that's not good. But I do see how AI has helped as a tool for some people. I don't necessarily think it's good for songwriters or that kind of thing or people who like write or people who, you know, make things with their hands. I think you should continue to make things with your hands and your brain and whatnot. But I understand also like it as a tool for people like I do. I can see that and I get that. I don't know. Your dad. He's awesome. Your mom. She's amazing. Your brother. He's so amazing. All my whole family is like incredible. Sounds like you won the lottery. I mean, with with family, I did for sure. They're the best. Well, what part of your life did you not win the lottery? Um. I don't know. I'm pretty happy. I mean, man, turning 30 is great. 30 feels good. 30 feels really good. What's your favorite part about being 30? That I have learned a lot of lessons and I can apply them. And. Yeah, I just. I think also I care less. I used to care so much. You know, you care what other people think. That whole like, you know, trauma from being bullied when you're a teenager, like follows you in your adult life and you like tend to care so much about what people think. And then you hit third year and just like, I literally don't give a fuck anymore. You know, like I'm just going to do what I do. And that's it. I wish it wasn't. So I feel similar with my teenage years and I'm older than you and I still have like that chip on my shoulder. It's amazing how only a few years of your life can shape. You know, the rest of your motivating, you know, the rest of your motivation. Once your frontal lobe develops, it's all uphill from there, baby. Well, listen, thank you so much for doing the podcast. I already said it, but, you know, I work in musicals. I work in I've got all these projects that that live in worlds. And it's people like you who are showing the industry how important it is to be a real artist through and through and how important. Albums is still albums still matter. That's how you create real artists. And you're doing it from such an authentic place. You're just so real. Thank you. I appreciate you. And I expect stickers next time you come here. I got you. I got like a little disappointed that you showed up without. No, I should have. I have like, you know, like I have this sticker here that is that my son put on here. That's really cute. We can do better than that, though. I got you. He's four and a half. And there are. There are probably about, you know, 200 episodes now that have like this sticker on it, which no offense. I like cars. Who doesn't like cars? But. I need you to make me a sticker and it's going to be the sticker that stays here. I got you. I appreciate you doing this. Thank you so much. There you go. Thanks.