Ep. 219 – Building a 150-Person Law Firm in One of the Most Competitive Markets (w/ Seth Bader)

Atlanta’s High Stakes Legal Market I think Atlanta is either the the second or third most competitive market in the country at this point. I've seen numbers about a year ago at this time, I want to say that Atlanta was #3 behind Los Angeles and possibly New York. I think we were about 80 to $90,000,000. And that was about a year ago. I suspected numbers well over $100 million a year and legal marketing spent in the in the Atlanta market. It's very, very competitive. But again, it's really all I've ever known. And so and in some ways I think because of that there's there is some ways more opportunity. Speaker 2 Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show that challenges the way lawyers and professionals think about life, business, and success. Hosted by Ben Glass, attorney, entrepreneur, coach, and father of nine, this show is about more than just practicing law. For over 40 years, Ben has built a law firm that stands for Something Bigger. He's helped thousands of lawyers create practices that make good money, do meaningful work, and still make it home for dinner. Each week, Ben brings you real conversations with guests who are challenging the status quo. Lawyers, doctors, entrepreneurs, thinkers, and builders. These are people creating bold careers and meaningful lives without burning out or selling out. If you're ready to stop playing small and start thinking like a renegade, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Seth Bader’s Firm At Scale Hey everyone, this is Ben. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer podcast where each episode I get to interview someone inside or outside of legal who's dinging the world today got a great guys and I add Seth Bader and I don't know, like he and I both been around a while and a Congress and stuff. Somehow we've never had a chance to meet each other quote face to face. And we're going to have a discussion today. Seth runs Bader law firm based out of Georgia. He's got about 150 employees. So we're going to talk about like the headaches and the beauty of that, and we'll talk about his growth journey and, you know, and most importantly, like what's next. So, Seth, hey, thanks for carving out some time for us today. Speaker 1 And I very much appreciate it. And actually, you know, now that I think about it, I think we might have met at one of Dan Kennedy's events in Cleveland, OH, around 2018. But anyway, but yes, excited to be here with you. Speaker 3 It's amazing how many people, if you if you ask enough questions, you can go back and find a common route, especially before we went live. We're talking about a number of sort of thought leaders in the in the firm building space. A lot of their your beginnings, I think to to Dan, great ideas here. Give us. So let's just start here, like start by giving us a picture today, Seth, of what the firm looks like in terms of I know you're based out of Georgia, you've got these a lot of people. So let's start there and then we'll kind of work backwards because I think there's a lot of lessons from your journey or journeys, right, that would be helpful to the next guy or gal who's running a law. Speaker 1 Firm. Yes, I'm happy to share it. Yeah. So today we're we're, our headquarters are in Atlanta. We have multiple satellite offices here in the state of Georgia. But again, our primary offices is in the heart of Buckhead in Atlanta. Of course, this is an extremely competitive market. We have about 150 employees. Many of those employees now are virtual staff members or what we call global team members, but they're all integrated into one, you know, one business operating system. They're not, they're not distinct or different, they're just, they just work differently and, and from, from remote places around the world. We, we specialize in personal injury, auto, automobile, motor vehicle accidents, as well as workers compensation. And we have been serving the Atlantic community for now for 18 years. We've done a lot of work in all communities, but especially in the Latino market is really where we kind of built the practice. And so we continue to serve that a very deserving community. And you know, it's a, it's a, it's a volume practice, but we are really focused today on building out a really, really robust litigation practice, which I think is essential for, for, for this type of practice. Speaker 3 There's a lot of things to talk about. You know, every time I go to Atlanta and get an Uber from the airport, much like I was just out in Phoenix, there seems to be so much money being spent by lawyers on what we would call broadcast advertising, You know, the billboards. And if you're in a hotel, you're watching on TV. And it seems like such a highly, highly competitive market. On the other hand, when I see concentrations of marketing like that, I just go back to this abundance of that. There must be a lot of cases out there and just more opportunity than there's ever been before. So what's it like, Seth, like competing in one of the most competitive markets for marketing spend, you know, in the country? Speaker 1 Yeah, it's, it's an absolute beast. I mean, this is all I all I've ever known. So for me it's normal. So it's, it's really only when I, you know, am with friends or colleagues around the country and see what it's like in their markets that I can really appreciate just how competitive and how massive Atlanta is both, both in terms of the competition, but also the opportunity. And so in some ways it's harder, right, because there is so much money spent. I think I'd think it is either the the second or third most competitive market in the country at this point. I've seen numbers, I, I want to say that about a year ago at this time, I want to say that Atlanta was #3 I think behind Los Angeles and possibly New York, I think we were about 80 to $90,000,000 and that was about a year ago. I suspect that number is well over $100 million a year in legal marketing spent here in, in the, in the Atlanta market. It's very, very competitive. But again, it's really all I've ever known. And so, and in some ways, I think because of that, there's, there is some ways more opportunity. And if you can find niche from a marketing standpoint or from an audience standpoint, I actually think it, it, it, it, it, it's very, very feasible and possible to, to build a brand and to, to be successful. Speaker 3 So recently, about a month ago, we ran what we called the analog marketing boot camp up here at Great Legal Marketing and we took a day and was everything community oriented or direct mail oriented or you know, sponsorships and alliances with businesses. Is that a part of your marketing portfolio or is almost everything spent on the digital and the other broadcast media? Speaker 1 Yes, I think we're in a bit of a transition in terms of our marketing strategy. Community is, always has always been and always will be a big part of our marketing. Community Giving Plus Smarter Litigation I think it's, it's not only part of the from a marketing standpoint, but I think it's really a responsibility that we have as lawyers, as consumer advocates to be in the community, supporting the community. So it, it, it feels good regardless of what kind of business it generates. But I do think that it's, it's really important to get back to the community. I think historically, particularly in the Latino market, which is where I really built the practice many years ago, we did a lot of work in the community. We sponsored a lot of events. We sponsored a lot of food drives, a lot of Turkey drives, a lot of book bag drives. Like we're doing a lot, we're, you know, doing a lot of stuff in schools. It's really giving back to the community. And I, I think this is the first year where we've just pulled back ever so just slightly, but not because we, we don't want to do it, but because we actually want to do it with much greater levels of intention and focus and purpose. And so we we sort of dialed that back again only for a very short period of time so we can regroup and rethink how we're giving back to the community. Speaker 3 I think it's really smart, you know, as I go to some of these big conferences where a lot of firms are spending, you know, a lot of money or speaking from the stage. And so a lot of firms who have never done community marketing like are figuring out they have to get that figured out. But when I'll tell you, my friend, when you do get it dialed in and get someone to lead that like it's magical. It can be magical. Tell me now. So you said that you're you're in the process of developing a more robot ligation arm or part of the firm. So what what happens today with cases that can't get set, cannot get settled pre lent? Are you have, are you, are you doing these cases in house or you get so relationships with trial firms? Speaker 1 Both, right. I mean, I think we've always litigation has always been a part of our practice. The differences, we're just being much more intentional about about what we litigate. We're also being much more intentional about who's litigating and the investments we're making to really build those cases up. And to the extent that we need to partner with, you know, a trial attorney outside of the practice, you know that then we do that. We've had a lot of success with some extremely, extremely talented trial attorneys here in Atlanta and, you know, very proud of those, those partnerships and those referral partnerships and relationships. And we'll probably continue to do that. I think I think a good part of being great at whatever you do is recognizing your, your strengths, your weaknesses and the opportunities. And I think that there are simply some cases that are better, you know, managed by a, you know, a partner that has a particular area of expertise or a niche that they can specialize in, or they might know the judge or they might know the, the venue. And I think that we we want to take advantage of that because at the end of the day, it's really about the the client, the client experience and getting the best outcome for them. Speaker 3 Percent. So I want to talk about sort of two framings. I'm curious about your leadership framework. I think I saw that you do EOS. Is that right? Speaker 1 Yes. So as of as of a few years ago, we we began implementing and and running the entrepreneurial operating system, the EOS system, yes. EOS Leadership And Visionary Thinking Right. So I want to talk about that for a bit and then talk about sort of the, the professional side, how many lawyers, how you organize into pods, you grow into it and you we all make mistakes. And do you know, there are many things that, Gee, I wish I'd known this when I was younger, but what does your leadership structure look like in terms of maybe who's on your leadership team? If you're running strict EOS, you're running 90 minute meetings and quarterly and annual off site. If you're doing that, what does it look like for you guys? Speaker 1 Yes. So today we have an executive leadership team and then below that we have what we call a leadership team or you might call it a management team, but we call it our leadership team. And the the executive leadership team is myself as the visionary or CEO. I have another individual who's the the CEO or again within the EOS system we would call an integrator. We have a director of finance, a director of people slash business operations and a director of marketing. And so that's kind of the executive level. And then below that we have a leadership team where you have somebody actually two individuals who oversee the personal injury department, one who's a lawyer, one who sort of overseas and, and supports the, the staff. And then the workers comp. We have a departmental leader, we have an intake leader, we have, we have a finance leader. Like we have essentially we have different managers within each area of the practice. And we also have a client success department and, and a quality assurance department, both of which are relatively new. So we're still kind of building that out, but I really want to make sure that we're we're providing not only a great experience, but also obviously doing high quality work for the clients. Speaker 3 If I followed you around for a couple of weeks, Seth, what would I see you doing vis A vis the firm? Speaker 1 That is a great question. A little bit of a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I think that I think first and foremost you'd see me give me really spending a lot of time thinking. It's not really that exciting, but I do a lot of thinking about every area of the business and very much in the visionary seat. A lot of that thinking is on my own. A lot of that is inspired by stuff that I'm reading or stuff that I'm watching or conferences that I go to. And I'm just kind of assessing how we might be able to improve the business and the practice both for what really for, for the, for the leaders, for the team members, and then ultimately for the clients because everything we're doing again is really designed for the clients and the client experience and the client outcomes. And so, but a part of that is also running a Better Business and a better practice. So I spent, if you were to follow me again, it's kind of hard to, like, describe it because I'm at a desk. Yeah. You know, a lot of it. A lot of it. You know, a lot of my best work or, you know, is done between 5:00 AM and 8:00 AM when I'm on walks, just thinking about the business, thinking about different areas of opportunity, thinking about different weaknesses, where we can, you know, get to get stronger. So you'd see me thinking a lot. You'd see me, you know, writing emails to different members of the leadership team to share ideas, to get feedback and to collaborate. You'd see me, obviously I'm the face of the firm and I do a lot of public relations and community type stuff. So you'd see me doing that. I don't, I don't really get like into the weeds so much, but I do, I'm still very involved and I, you know, I see what's happening with the intakes, you know, new clients. I'm seeing again opportunities there. We can improve. Same on the marketing side. I don't know if that really paints the picture, but it's it's just a lot of vision casting. It's a lot of thinking, it's a lot of collaboration with different members of the leadership team. Speaker 3 And then you have a governor, an integrator or an operations person that says, Seth, thanks for those 50 ideas you sent me over in the last 24 hours. Here's one of them we can probably get started on, and we love you very much, but we're just going to be 6 the other 49 for now, right? Speaker 1 Yeah, it's usually more than 50 and usually less than, usually less than 24 hours and more than 50. I think, you know, I think it's refreshing to hear that, that I'm not the only one, right. So I think as a visionary, and I don't say that like in a not Tooting Mount Horn, but like that is the function that I plays. And it's a, it's a really important function I think in any successful organization. And I think that it for those that are in the seat, it just comes naturally, right? You don't, I don't think you can choose to be a visionary, right? I mean, you either are or you're not. Speaker 3 I think that's I think that's exactly right And that, you know, we I have a really good because I'm in practice with my oldest son and he's a great integrator. Like he is a numbers and systems and manager brain, like he has all of that. And I'm the one that's like ultimate possibility. And why don't we go try this and maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Speaker 1 And he will get it. And I, and I think, I look, I think it's, it's definitely, I think part of my journey and part of, you know, growing and learning as as a leader and as a visionary is trying to, to learn how to manage. I don't want to call them impulses, but I'll just call them those instincts, right? And, and because you can very much overwhelm your team and, and I, and I've come to appreciate that the team, generally speaking, wants to be there. They appreciate all of the ideas. They just appreciate when you give them the space to process them and to execute them. Because if not, it's just, it's just, you're just going to break them down. And again, they want to help. So it's, and they want to bring your vision to life. It's you just have to be able to manage it. And I think a lot of that, again, is, is around self-awareness. I think a lot of that is around, you know, really good communication. I think it helps. I think right now the CEO integrator that I have has been really, really great to work with because I think he understands and appreciates what I bring to the table and vice versa. And I never feel like I'm being, you know, I think some integrators that get it wrong get very frustrated and, and it creates a lot of tension. And I think a really good integrator takes the ideas. They know why you're, you know where you're coming from. They know what it's really positive. And they're, as you said, they're able to kind of listen, process, filter, organize and then, you know, collaborate, like and then execute. Speaker 3 For those who are listening to this and find this part of the discussion interesting, the book is Rocket Fuel, which is part of the OS library, which talks about that relationship between the visionary and the integrator and how how great teams of visionaries and integrators work like to build something that's never been built before on the professional side. What's it look like maybe in terms of number of lawyers and then how how pot in a lot of firms? Yeah, So pod system like what is it for you all? Speaker 1 So I think it's it's a in a state of transformation. Practice Structure Pods And Case Flow But first, first of all, we have a personal injury practice and a worker's compensation practice, which is a little bit unusual. I think very few firms at scale have both. We actually started as a worker's compensation. We, I did everything sort of backwards, not, not on purpose, but I, I started out as a workers comp attorney, a marketing to and serving the Latino community, which makes sense when you do workers comp. And then from there we built on the personal injury. And then from there we expanded outside of the Latino market, you know, to the general market. So it's the first thing you need to know. It's about 65 to 70% of the business and practice is personal injury and about 30% would be a workers comp. We serve the entire state of Georgia and as far as the the design of the practice, we have about 11:50 personal injury lawyers, around about 10 workers comp lawyers. The workers comp lawyers each have a dedicated sort of support team. I guess we don't call them pods, but you could. And then on the personal injury practice, we have some lawyers that are focused exclusively on litigation. They have their teams of support staff, you know, paralegals, legal assistance. And then we have attorneys that are focused primarily on pre litigation, though some of them do handle some litigation as well. And again, they have their teams of support staff. So I guess you could call them pilots. Speaker 3 A lot of lawyers staff running practices much smaller than what you are running struggle with right people on the bus sitting the right seats on the bus, struggle with culture. Hiring For Values And Leadership Standards I was at a different event a couple weeks ago and lawyers are asking questions about, well, you know, the, the personal injury team sees the checks and stuff and, and sometimes they get jealous about what they think the owners are taking out. How have you managed to, you know, to hire to to culture and develop A-Team and not and then we'll talk separately about the virtual aspect of it, but develop such a big team that's, you know, behind the mission as as as well as a big team such as yours could be behind the mission. What is your strategy for that? Speaker 1 What will first, I have to be vulnerable and be honest and tell you it hasn't been clean and easy, right? I think that I think that today we're in a much better spot. We have AI think this is probably the most talented, not probably this is by far the most talented team of lawyers and non lawyers, leaders and non leaders than we've ever had. And that says a lot because we've had a lot of really, really extremely and talented people over the years. Just incredibly proud to see how much so many success so many of them have had both inside the firm and outside the firm. They've grown a tremendous they had lunch with with one of them a week ago and was just I was blown away. I truly blown away because of how much she's grown as a professional in the legal space. And so I take a lot of pride in that, but I think over the years, I think it's been challenging. I'll come back and answer the question about what we're doing today. But I think when you grow really, really fast, it's really, really hard. You know, there's that phrase hire slow, fire fast. That's easier said than done when you have thousands of cases and you've and you've never done it and you don't have a debt recruiting, you know, a talent acquisition team and you just need to hire people. And there comes a point where if you're not really, really careful, you're just going to start hiring a lot of people without clarity. About their roles and responsibilities without clarity about whether they're aligned with the organization from a culture standpoint, whether they even have the, you know, the skills are as an EOS. They say that the GWC to get it, want it and capacity to do it. And So what ends up happening is you, you, you solve one problem by creating another one. You don't have enough people. You don't have enough bodies. You bring out a lot of people and then all of a sudden you realize months later and you don't, you don't realize it right away, but but months and sometimes years later, you realize the impact of hiring the wrong people or hiring the right people for the wrong roles. And so I think that, you know, I, I'm, I'm disappointed and frustrated that I made those mistakes, but I'm not ashamed because I think everybody who's, who's been in this seat and it really in any kind of business has made these kinds of mistakes. So I think today we are, we try to be more intentional. We, you know, we have a set of core values. It a lot of times people feel like it's sort of woo woo talk, you know, like core values. But I think it's, I think it's right. And I think that when you find the right people, they align with your values. And your values at the glass law firm are different from mine. And, and I don't think yours are, I don't know what they are, but yours are not wrong and mine are not wrong. It's just a matter of finding the people that align with your values. And again, I think we do our very, very best to to hire based on those values before we hire on the talent. And that's really the best thing you can do. And then I think the other thing you can do is to maintain a standard and, and really assess people's performance and their alignment against those those values. We have this year for the first time ever, we rolled out a leadership covenant, which is sort of an extra layer of values and commitments that our our leaders make to the organization. And, and that was really born from the idea that I felt like we didn't have a standard for our leadership team. And I think there was inconsistency between how our leaders LED throughout the organization. And so now that we have that, we use it, We, we, we working to train our leaders what that means to actually adhere to that leadership covenant. And we've already fired some people that were simply out of alignment with it. And we've also, you know, to the extent that a leader is, is out of alignment, but might still be a great fit for the firm. At some point there will be a conversation where we say you're a great fit, you're just not a great fit as a leader. And I think a lot of times business owners promote people into leadership roles that are not really qualified for leadership. They're just really, really talented people. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, they were some of the most elite performers on the planet. Questionable whether or not, you know, they were really not questionable whether or not they're really great coaches, right? And I think that I'm. So you can be great at certain things and not great at others. And I think leadership is one of those. Speaker 3 So look, I think I think you're exactly right. And for folks who are listening to this, you know, as your firm grows, you're always, you're almost always now growing into a place that you've never played before at a level you've never played out before. And two things I've observed over time is #1 oftentimes the people that go with you to a certain level and are great are not the people that are going to go with you to the next level. And it's neither good nor bad. It just is. But the other thing is, is, and I don't know if you have a coach outside of your EOS implementer coach, but I think it's been the thing I would do, the thing I would tell my younger self is to have gotten coaching like business coaching earlier, direct one-on-one, pay a bunch of money, invest there so that you can accelerate through these spaces where you just you don't have experience. Nobody you know has experience at that level or you know, they're not willing to share. And so you're figuring out on your own and getting your nose bloodied up. Speaker 1 Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, I think, I think as you find the right business coach, I think it, it's, it's can be huge for you. You got to be very careful though, because there's a lot of people out there that, you know, promote themselves as having a lot of experience of having a lot of success. And, and the truth is if you, if you're not really careful and you don't ask the right questions, they don't share the right answers. And then you, you, you find that you're getting coached by somebody who's actually completely failed in their own experience. And so it's just really in, in of course, now there's been AI don't know the word of proliferation, but there's been just, there's been an abundance of, you know, coaches and consultants out there. And again, it just depends what you're looking for. But again, you got to find the right coaches. But I'm, I am, I do look for coaches. I do have multiple coaches that that help me with different areas of my life and my business. Some are much more around mindset, some are much more tactical, some are around leadership. And so I think it's, I think it's essential if you're going to be great at anything to, you know, even you know, Michael Jordan had, you know, Tim Grover was his, you know, he's like exercise fitness guy. So, so whether whether you have a coach or sort of the right consultant to help you with the different, you know, to use the sports term like part of your game, whether it's short term or long term, I definitely think that it can be extremely valuable to to your growth. Speaker 3 I think it's been a great investment and, you know, the promise of the coaches that we've had over time is that I may seem expensive, but my fee is going to become irrelevant if we work together in a great way and and the business grows. From One Bedroom Office To Growth Let's talk about your own journey a bit because you didn't start, you didn't wake up one day running a firm with 150 people spread all over the world, you know, competing in one of the three top most competitive places in America. So how did Seth Bader get into sort of the, I don't want to call it big law, but the big firm experience you you described it as, you know, a volume practice like if you always played in that space. Speaker 1 I definitely have not always played in the space. I mean, it's, you know, I think unless you, unless you're part of a succession plan, you know, with one of the biggest law firms in the country, you know, and your, your family member, you, you happen to be a partner where you can take over the practice. I don't think anybody starts with a, with a, with any business, let alone a big business or big law firm. I mean, when I started out, it was a boutique, right? I started out, it was 2008, one bedroom apartment. It was me, a French bulldog and an Apple computer. I thought I was cutting edge to have an Apple computer. I thought I was I didn't have money to buy files, so I became a paperless office, right. So like I thought I was really cool. I used to settle cases from the poolside and you know, post on this is early and so you know, Facebook and I'd say, you know, another hard day at the office while I'm at the pool settling cases, right. So I think that I started out small and didn't have a lot of money to my name and and, you know, built something, was fortunate enough to work with a lawyer that had overflow, actually a couple of lawyers. And I think for the first three or four years, that was how it happened. I didn't have a specific plan. I the plan was to figure the plan was figured out. Like that was the plan. Yeah. And so so I worked. Speaker 3 They told me this would be good at some point and. Speaker 1 I knew it couldn't be any worse than, you know, serving as an insurance defense attorney that but I knew for sure, right. And so, and I knew that I could always fall back on on that if I had to. But I, I, you know, I worked a lot of hours. I build relationships. I, I was very, very lucky. There was a friend of mine that had a lot of work and he referred cases. And then when that relationship kind of came to an end as as most marketing channels eventually come to an end for those that have been in the business, they'll understand it. But you kind of have to just catch lightning in the bottle while you can. And then you do it as long as you can. And some of it will stay with you forever. A lot of it won't. And you kind of see it through. And then and then you try to find other ways to to market yourself and generate business. And then those will, they'll have a shelf life. And then you just kind of keep doing that while you're still, you know, trying to build a brand and build a solid practice where you can generate referrals, which is really the ultimate and the best way I think to generate business the cheapest as well. But I think over time, what I realized was I was able to make a really big impact myself. And then by extension, a few other lawyers were. And then I realized that if you were good at marketing, you could really, really, really make a huge impact in the lives of more people and more, more, more clients, more employees, more communities and more families. And so I think that when I realized that, and I, I said, you know what, I'm going to build something bigger. It wasn't money has actually never really motivated me. I mean, it's, to me, it's the, it's the, the consequence in the byproduct of really making an impact in the world and doing good work. And I think, I think all too often people get just too motivated by the money. And my experience is that those that are really only motivated by the money don't really go very far. I just don't think that that that provides enough motivation and inspiration. But I suppose maybe for some it does, but not for me. And so. Speaker 3 So you and I are aligned like put energy into the world and the world will repay you. And a lot of people don't realize that's a very simple secret to life is you go 1st and do something for somebody else first, right? And for any of us, no matter where you are, who you are, listening to this like there's something that you can do today to put a good energy into the world. And so, so you started out, as many of us do, getting cases, you know, fed to us or passed down from other law lawyers and law firms. Things start to grow. And at some point you're out of your apartment with your Apple computer and your and your dog. Talk about that journey for a bit. Speaker 1 I mean, the dog, sadly, the dog passed away. You know, is, is a year or two into the practice. She was a cute old stout bulldog. Anyway, I think that, you know, I moved out and, and, and I started to, again, I found some really great referral partners and one of whom who introduced me to you actually. And I told you before we got on that I'd never, never shared that with you, but this lawyer down in Peachtree City was referring a lot of business, really a great person, great lawyer. And, and I went to see him and, and I said, you know, how are you getting your business? This is because I think for, for, for those that have never done it, it feels, it is, it's a mystery because you don't, you don't actually, and it feels a little bit like magic. You have no idea how you're going to do it. And we were there. I was in his office, and I said, how do you do it? He looked over to his bookshelf and he had like the Ben Glass library. And again, I hadn't hadn't thought about that until until today. And then I went online. And at the time, I don't know if you still see, I don't know if anybody has cd-roms, but, but I purchased I think every CD-ROM in the Ben Glass collection. I listened to it, Napoleon Hill was referenced in a few of them and it was like my mind, I read the book Think and Grow Rich, and it literally just expanded my entire mind to the possibilities. And so I think from there, that led me to join different masterminds and conferences. And the exposure I got to what other people were doing around the country was, was just so, so enlightening. And I think that unfortunately in this industry, people are generally just closed off to sharing ideas, particularly in the local market. They're afraid that if they tell you something that you're going to have the secret. Speaker 3 You're going to get all the cases. There'll be no cases left. Speaker 1 Right, when the reality is, and I think John Morgan says this, you know, he'll, he'll share everything because the reality is most people either don't have the money, the courage or the, or the ability to actually execute on it. And so I think that it's, it's really kind of sad that that people don't share more. But if you're if you're willing to get outside of your sort of your community, your city. Speaker 3 You'll find. Speaker 1 You'll find it. And so, so I think from there I just, I learned so much. I was in all of a sudden there were no longer mysteries. The only thing is what there were opportunities, but those opportunities, of course, took risk and took money. And I think that a lot of times in this industry, people aren't willing to take the risk or to spend the money. At the time, I didn't have a family and I didn't really have a lot to lose. And so I, you know, I made the investment into marketing and into, into the business into some technology now. And I think that things, things kind of grew. I made some really good decisions, had really good instincts to market in the Latino market, which was less competitive here in Atlanta. It was naturally a community that aligned because I grew up immersed in a Latino community in South Florida. So I understood the culture. I was conversant in the language, you know, and I don't want to say the rest is history because it's not it, but I mean it definitely. Speaker 3 The story is still being written. Speaker 1 For sure. Yeah. We're definitely still in the middle of the book. So, you know, it's interesting. You know, I turned 50 last week, and a lot of my friends and peers are, it's not that they're, like approaching retirement, but it feels like they are sort of on the backside. And, you know, a lot of them have moved into mediation and, you know, practices very noble professions and nothing wrong with it, but I'm like still trying to build my business. Like it's like I'm, I feel like I'm just starting, which is kind of crazy. Speaker 3 It is kind of crazy, but look, I turned 68 back near the beginning of the year and, and I'll tell you, I've lived through the revolution where we went from doing legal research with books to online. And it was pre Internet, like it was Direct Line. Then the Internet came, then the Internet used as marketing and now all this AI stuff. And for an old guy like me, like this is very, very exciting. You know, how how can we make the client experience better yet better results by getting us to where we do our art and the lawyers art is crafting strategy and thinking, you know, strategically right for the client. And so it is exciting. God bless the folks that have gone to do mediation and stuff. I don't have the patience for that. I like to build shit and break it. And I'll be here for as long as you know, Brian wants me hanging out here. Let's talk for a couple minutes. I'm curious about the virtual workforce or or in the transnational workforce. A lot of firms are moving in the direction of so-called offshore employees. Global Team Members And AI Training How does it work for you? Do you have your own recruiters in other countries or you working through agencies? If you'll share that and then how do you, how do you, you know, maintain training, culture, discipline, if you want to use that word with the folks who are spread far and wide? Speaker 1 Yes. So I was very, very skeptical of, of working with people offshore, not because not, not because I doubted their capacity, but just I doubted the ability for us to integrate well with people that were not working in the office that we couldn't really build those personal connections with and see each other and work together. You know, I say everybody, a lot of my peers were doing it and I thought, you know, and people that I really respected. And so we tested it out. And what we found was that they were extremely bright, extremely talented, in some cases better educated, but very, very well educated relative to some of the teammates that we have here in the United States, extremely hungry, extremely driven. And so I, I think that it has worked. And we, we have not hired anybody directly. We've gone through different agencies. We worked with a few different ones. And I think all of them have been, you know, I don't have anything bad to say about any of them. They've all been great to work with. They they produce a lot of really talented people very, very quickly. As far as training, you know, some some of them do a better job of sort of onboarding them and training them for you. You still have to train them on your own practices. But I think that overall, I think that they've been great. I think we as far as like how we, how we train them, I think they're had some dedicated one-on-one. We've also had some group training. I think that that's an area of opportunity for us to improve. And we're working on that now to, to leveraging some artificial intelligence tools to help build out the content in a more efficient way. So we don't have to like do live trainings over and over and over. And also so that we can, so that we can create more training faster rather than having to, you know, now, of course, again, with AI, you don't have to film everything. You don't have to, you don't have to like create everything. You can give it the content and it will help construct the training manual and modules and so on and so forth. So that's something we're actively working on today, but it by no means have they replaced our team. I think they've, they've taken on some tasks that we could assign to, to them to, to work on. And overall, I think it's been a really great working relationship that I think the team was skeptical at first, but I think that they've grown to appreciate those, those team members. And I think that can I say that every global team member has been a rock star? I cannot. But can I say that every local team member has been a rock star? No, I can't. I mean, I think that some people are aligned and, and work hard and meet our exceed expectations and some people don't. I don't think where you live or where you've, you know, where where you've grown up is, is the distinguishing factor. Speaker 3 That's that's another very exciting thing about practicing, you know, today in 2026 is that the technology available makes it much easier to integrate folks who aren't right, right down the hall. I mean, there is a, there's a place for being right down the hall and listening to conversations and learning a lot that way, particularly for lawyers. I think so good for you. So we'll wrap it up here in a SEC, but here we are. We're recording this about mid-May of 2026. What are you and your leadership team, if you'll share, like, what are you working on? What do you wish that we could do better? If we're, if we're having a conversation a year from now, like what's the exciting thing that you and your leadership team have accomplished to make, you know, either the business better, the impact on the world better? 2026 Priorities People Leaders Technology Like what are you all working on? I mean, I know what we, we work on the people issue and recruiting great people. Like that's like the bane of our existence, like because our growth is great and getting the right people in. But I'm just curious about what you and your leadership team through the rest of 262026. Speaker 1 Yeah, we're working on, Yeah. I mean, we're working on a lot. I mean, I think what comes to mind, I think first and foremost to your point is the people, right? But I think, I think really making sure that we're bringing on the right people to get the job done. I think, I think that if you have the right people, it makes anything and everything possible, right? If you don't, it makes it almost impossible. So I think that that's the first thing I think really creating a bit more structure and and clarity around roles, responsibilities and accountability is essential. But doing it in a way that is doesn't feel like you're you're, it feels very empathetic and supportive kind of versus like like like micromanagement or be like punishing like that. I think that I think people want to be successful. People actually want leadership, they want support, but but I think that they want it in a way that's empathetic, caring and supportive of their growth. Not like again, not not in a way that is demeaning or punishing. And I think so I think, I think developing. And the other thing is I think not only bringing on, but developing the right leaders. I think that leadership is critical. All right, I think. Speaker 3 Another skill they didn't teach you in law school, how to develop not just lawyers, but leaders. Speaker 1 Right. So I think, I think because if you have a system, if you have a structure, if you have an accountability chart and you have, you know, goals and expectations that you're going to hold people accountable to, you can't do that if you don't know how to lead them. And I think that I think that really developing our leaders and continuing to develop them over the next year is really, really critical think I think bringing on the right people, developing them and our leadership team building up the structure. And then the other thing is finding ways to really integrate technology and artificial intelligence within our system to improve the experience for the team and to improve and improve the experience for the clients. I think that I think if we can do all that within the next, by the end of this year, certainly within the next 12 months, we can get back on. And I can tell you what a what a successful year it's been. Speaker 3 This is what makes visionaries excited and but it creates headaches for the integrators and the Cos of the world. Seth, thanks for spending time with us today. If people want to see the website, maybe talk to you about a case in Georgia. Where should they go? Speaker 1 Yeah, sure. They can go to baderlaw.com. They can call us at 404-888-8888. But yeah, baderlaw.com and I'm, I'm more than happy both from a referral partnership relationship. How To Connect And Final Takeaways I'd love to to build those kind of relationships. We have them with other lawyers around the country, but are always looking to expand our network. And to the extent that anybody wants to exchange ideas, take my brain on anything, I'm more than happy. Speaker 3 That's very generous. That's very generous. Well, thank you, my friend. I'm glad we finally got a chance to have a real conversation after all these years. Speaker 1 Yeah, Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Speaker 2 That's it for today's episode of the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where we're rewriting the rules of what it means to build a great law practice and a great life. If something sparked a new idea or gave you clarity, pass it on. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this with someone who's ready to think bigger. Want more tools, strategies and stories from the trenches? Visit greatlegalmarketing.com or connect with Ben Glass and the team on LinkedIn. Keep building boldly. We'll see you next time.