Ep 208: Bring Back the Joy of Giving (with Allison Fine)

Sit back and get ready to be seriously energized and motivated. Alison Fine has a knack of doing this to people. She is totally joyful about the work she does, and what you will find remarkable, and for some of you, perhaps counterintuitive, is that her sweet spot is educating folks about how tech can help your organization to build deeper and more lasting relationships with those who enter your ecosystem. Alison believes we make things too hard on ourselves. They were overly skeptical, risk-averse, and as a result, innovative opportunities often pass us by. When I asked Alison as I often asked guests, what do you think we should call this episode? She didn't hesitate. Let's call it how to make a $25 donor feel like a million bucks. Now, I don't know if that's actually what the name of this podcast will be, but I do think that that one sentence will allow us to tease out a lot. From donor stewardship to retention of donors, we're talking about that, to building a donor pipeline, to fueling those who give with the joy that comes with being able to contribute, to a cause that means something to you, something that actually touches you. As a sector we pride ourselves in embedding core values in our work with our clients and the communities we serve, but do we embed those values in our relationships with our donors? I think we kind of know the answer to that, at least we know the current answer. Today, with Alison Smart's energy and passion for the nonprofit sector, let's take a crack at how nonprofits can answer that question differently, bringing joy to everyone in your organization's village. (upbeat music) Greetings and welcome to nonprofits are messy. I have your host Joan Gary, founder of the nonprofit leadership lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn more at JoanGary.com. I think of myself as a woman with a mission, to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know the nonprofit leaders are grappling with, by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights today is no exception. Alison Fine is a trailblazing force in the realm of technology for social good. Her expertise and captivating speaking style, and she does have that by the way, have made her a sought after keynote speaker at conferences around the world, where engaging presentations inspire audiences to embrace tech as a tool for positive change and provide actionable strategies for harnessing its potential. She's written four influential books that have helped to shape and reshape the nonprofit landscape. Her latest book on the use of artificial intelligence for social good is the smart nonprofit, staying human centered in an automated world. It was co-authored with my pal Beth Cantor. Alison currently serves as the president of Every.org, a nonprofit that supports a free fundraising platform. Get this that increases the joy of giving while decreasing the friction. Alison is a friend and a kindred spirit of mine as a champion of the nonprofit sector. She shares with me an unbridled joy about doing work of real meaning and purpose. Welcome, Alison Fine. Thank you for having me, Joan. It's a pleasure. So Alison, I know you to be a woman with a mission. Pretty laser focused, in fact. And I think you agree. So woman with a mission, what is your mission exactly? My mission is to reshape the entire field of fundraising, Joan. It is to move us from a default setting of transactional asks, asks, asks for that $25 donation to a brand new 21st century model of engaging with and bringing joy to donors. It's going to be relational. It's going to feel meaningful. And it's going to take the steam out of the pot for all these nonprofits that are on the hamster wheel of transactional giving right now. How did we get here? We got here from a lot of practice over 60 years. It's like getting to Carnegie Hall, right? Practice, practice, practice, Joan, right? It is six decades of conventional wisdom that the way to get a donation is to just keep asking and nailing and now emailing and over and over again until there's no one left to ask. The only one making money, Joan, are all those consultants telling you that's the way it's done, right? That's the conventional wisdom that's been baked into the field. I wonder if you think about the big players in the field? Are they big? Is it like it? Does it come from the world of united way? And when you think about the history of our sector, is there something about the history of our sector that pointed us towards transactional giving, do you think? I'm kind of noodling on that question myself. My first job at a college, Joan, was writing copy for direct mail fundraising. We worked for an agency and we had all the organs. We had lung and kidney and art. We just kept writing all of those messages of pitch in 25 bucks or the sky will fall. The consultants, a lot of them, came from catalogs. They came from generating lists to mail the catalogs to. Oh, oh, oh. Then they looked over and they saw this field of nonprofits with enormous lists of donors. I said, we could do the same thing. We can sell nonprofits, charities, to donors the same way we're selling clothes in the Sears catalog to people over here. That's where it came from. Or subscriptions to magazines. Or subscriptions to magazines, right? It was all about super sizing those requests. You make them bigger and bigger and bigger. And at that time, in a very analog world, they all had to be cookie cutter, right? You'd only make one request of people when you're sending this same piece of mail to millions of people. It's the same message. Well, then, right, then move forward. And now you've got email. And yes, you can segment some of these lists, but the idea is all about going faster and getting bigger, right? And that's where the hamster reel comes in. Go fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, get the cash in the door. Yeah, and I think about this too is, in my work, I have highly impactful organizations with small budgets and very, and organizations I can't really get my arms around their impact with multi-million dollar budgets. That that's not the key, is it? Money is not, I mean, money is the key, and it's not, right? So look, we have a lot of problems with growth in the sector, organizations tend to grow sideways. They add more and more and more programs to what they're doing because they got a grant to do that. Or a board member likes that program, so they do that. And I've been in social service agencies where they don't even know the number of programs they run, right? It's just a huge number, and you get spread very thin. And then the development department has to be in the business after that first grant comes through of sustaining all of that work, right? And that's huge. And nothing ever comes off the table once it's on, right? So that's not the problem. And of course, measurement is a huge part of the problem. We know how much activity happens in nonprofits. We don't know how much impact they have, right? It's very, very difficult to measure. And again, that requires choosing not to do things, which is very, very hard for organizations that are in the pleasing and the community building business, right? We'd like to say yes to people. We'd like to please boards and staff and donors, especially donors, large donors. And that can make it very difficult to get laser focus like a small organization is. If you just do one thing, it's easier to stay focused on it, right? If you're running 27 different programs, it's very hard to stay focused totally. So you talk about tech as a tool for positive change. And as you look objectively at the sector, is the biggest problem? What do you see is that the problems or challenges we need to solve for in order to effectively resource the organizations? Is it this shift from transactional to relational giving? Would you say that that's the fulcrum here? I think it's in part. And you mentioned this a little bit earlier. In a lot of organizations, Joan, the only place that isn't value aligned is the low dollar giving, right? It's the development department, which is astonishing, right? So you have organizations that work so hard to align their values in governance and in programs and even in comms. But you get over to fundraising. And it's whatever it takes to bring that money in. Now, I think there's a direct line in governance to that kind of culture, right? Yes. What boards are asking for, what boards are measuring can be seen in development offices where the insistence on doing whatever takes to get cash in the door has corrupted the culture of those places, not intentionally, right? But the result is this pressure cooker for development staff. And then we see it where we have, on average, 18 months for development staff staying in their positions, right? Yeah, that's a terrifying statistic. Pressure is unrelenting on folks. I have said in rooms with development directors, and I say who has been in the bathroom crying in the last week because of a board member saying, super size it, and every hand goes up, right? And I think that that's a little bit to what I was going to earlier is that is bigger is not necessarily better, right? But that boards often, many board members of whom come from the for-profit sector where the more money that comes in the door and the more successful you are. But that isn't a measurement of success. And boards put that pressure on development staff. Many board members who then don't go out and help them to raise the money, right? Correct. Correct. This huge tension, the tension of board members saying, show me your growth path, right? Show me your sustainability. Show me new revenue streams. Things nonprofits aren't set up to do. At the same time, they don't want to ask their friends to give, right? So you have had this whole nonprofit blood pushing through your veins since your first gig with the innovation network. And today, you're part of another innovation network, aren't you? Part of an exciting, relatively new venture that does, in fact, magically integrate all your passions. Innovation tech and what it takes to resource the nonprofit sector. And in our conversations, it's just been so fun to listen to you talk about how much this venture brings you joy. Now, every.org is not alone in the space of matching donors with organizations to drive giving. So you have the floor, my friend. Tell us about every.org and why you are so downright giddy about this enterprise. I am giddy about it, Joan. I'm going to tell you exactly why I know you're. We're a C three, right? So we live in this same space with folks. The tech is amazing, right? Created by Stanford grads to be just super fun to use, easy to use. We're actually organized as a donor advised fund. And the reason for that is that we can accept any kind of payment method on behalf of all the nonprofits in the IRS database so you can give crypto, stock, death cards, bank, whatever. And we turn it into dollars and donors and send it to the organizations. But the thing that makes me happiest about our model is we're not extractive, Joan. We don't take fees for setup or fees for transactions. We don't sell the data. We're funded by foundations like camp.org and the Gates Foundation and optional tips by donors. And that's it. It's just beautiful and it's simple. And it allows us to focus on helping organizations, particularly small ones, engage with donors. Get the friction out of the system right now. That's where we are now. In the future where we're headed is we're going to help organizations use AI. Take apart their development systems and processes and assumptions, get the administrative work off their plate if we can, with AI or just reordering the work that they're doing. And free up their time, you've talked to Beth. She and I called it the dividend of time to really talk to your donors, right? How does it feel to give to us? Why did you come here? What's your story as a donor? What would it take for you to reach out to 10 friends and tell them about us? How can we help you to do that? And that's a relationship. That's not selling a seed catalog to somebody. So what makes a visit to every.org a joyful visit? Because I think you think of it that way, right? When people come, it's not just a transactional here or the organizations, you sign up, you, whatever it is, right? It's different. It has joy. And I want to know, I think that's one of its distinctive qualities. What makes every.org such a joyful experience for those who visit on either side, whether you're the nonprofit or whether you are the potential funder? So we have a platform, Joan, that nonprofits can come and make their profile on it, and that donors can come and use as well. And just visually, it's just a super fun place to be. And it allows donors to share their donations on the platform and on their social channels. So I just push a button, and you can share that with the world. You can create your own campaign. And allows nonprofits to tell their own story as well and bring their current donors through the system or meet new donors on our platform. So I think it's just an instinctively social place to be. And it's a visually pleasing place to be. And it's just super easy to use. But it feels so much better than if you've ever given through a death platform, Joan. It's like paying your bill. And it totally has to be more than paying utility. It becomes just simply the methodology I use to make the payment really, right? In that sense, whereas I can go to every.org, and what I like about visiting the site, seeing maybe it's because of my Irish DNA, but it's filled with stories. That's exactly right, which is the whole reason for giving. Anytime you hear, you read something where people say, I want more data on where my money went. And I thought, think, well, maybe some people, Joan, they want a story, right? They want to connect to their giving to their heart. That's why we give, because it feels good to give, right? So there are a lot of places where I, as a nonprofit, can a lot of sites where I'm asked to go on. I mean, clearly, I need to resource my organization, right? But a lot of places I can go on. And I'm asked to fill out a profile, right? Could you tell me about, is this just-- I'm going to be the skeptic who's listening and saying, OK, I got candid, I got charity navigator there. Everybody's asking me for, as we say in Ireland, fake in profiles, right? Like, what? Is this-- why, why, why, why, I was this profile? A few reasons. One, as a nonprofit, we can instantly give you the fundraising infrastructure that only tippity-top nonprofits can afford, otherwise, without us, right? So you are black sisters in STEM. And Joe, if you stock or if you crypto, without us, you don't have an easy way to accept that. We do all that work for you. We don't charge you anything for that and just move the donors to you, right? So instantly, you can accept all the payment methods that say, you know, the Red Cross can accept, without having to buy the software, without having to, you know, upgrade anything on your own. Guess what, Joan? Our donors are younger than 45. They are. They are. Go and find another platform where the donors of that young, I dare you. I'm not going to take the dare, because I believe you. Secondly, listen up, all of you, because I had a podcast with Tom Kissane from CCS, which is also my second cousin. We must have this whole nonprofit thing in our Irish DNA, too. And the wealth that's coming to the people under the age of 45 off the charts. And combine that with their insistence on values-based living, their insistence on meaning and purpose, right? This is a whole cohort of humans who will go in a job interview and ask a company about their values. I mean, I'm 66. I only needed to know where the restroom was, right? And you were lucky if they told you, Joan. Correct. Why do you need to know? If you get the job, I'll tell you where it is, right? Wait two weeks, and maybe if you're still here, we'll tell you where it is. Yeah. Go before you get to the office. How dare you use our toilet paper? Right. So how did they find you? How do people-- how have you marketed every dot work? Maybe that's an interesting thing. It's like you're finding the fish people really-- you're finding the right pond. How did they find you? So far, it's largely word of mouth. And because our origin story was these young developers looking for way to help crypto holders donate. So that's a very young marketplace of folks looking to be very values aligned in there. And not only what they give to, but how they give it, Joan, right? So the crypto folks want a place that is safe. That isn't going to spam them. That isn't going to sell their data. That gives them these beautiful choices of nonprofits that feels fresh and young, and here we are. The nonprofit leadership lab is led by Joan Gary. And is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com/podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab.com/podcast. I guess we're having a conversation about fundraising and how tech can move you from being transactional fundraisers to relational fundraisers. That's sort of counterintuitive sort of idea, right? And we're talking with Allison Fine, who is the president of every.org. She is, again, I have a woman with a mission around taking tech and making sure that it does social good. She's the author of a number of books, including The Smart Nonprofit, staying human centered in an automated world. And every.org is a nonprofit that supports-- I like this phrase-- a free fundraising platform that increases the joy of giving while decreasing the friction. Let's come back to this. What, every.org will make possible? You were joking before about-- we were joking before about the '25. How did it make a $25 donor feel like a million bucks? Well, first of all, regardless of what the platform is Allison, I have to believe in my kishkis. That's a Yiddish word. I have to believe in my kishkis that that $25 donor is actually worth a million bucks, right? And I think that most nonprofit organizations-- say, OK, $25, let's move on, get me $25,000. So let's talk about that $25 donor. And then I want to talk about what you call the leaky bucket. So tell me about the $25 donor and how we shift all of this. So they're actually connected. Dehumanizing of the $25 donor is because of the leaky bucket, Joan, right? So because organizations are so pressed to bring in cash and are so scarcity-oriented, they have bought into this idea of spend a ton of money, bring in a thousand donors. You'll lose money on acquisition, but don't worry. Those donors will be with you for years. The ones that stay, right? And they'll pay for itself over time. And the reality is, 20% of donors give a second time. So you lost money on acquisition. 20%. So I give once. And then you're-- I'm out the door. 80% of the time. I'm out the door the next time. I'll never become that. There's not a limit. A quick question, though. Does that include-- I guess that includes all giving, right? Because that includes, if I donate to my friend, Tamika, who's running a race. And I contribute to Susan B. Coleman, because she's running that race, right? I gave because of Tamika. I didn't really give to Susan B. Coleman, did I? So the number's a little-- I mean, I think our sector is way too dependent on that. And we-- or at-- or we don't do a very good job of getting Joan to be connected to Susan B. Coleman after she donates on Tamika's behalf. We don't give Tamika the tool. And the capacity to go to Joan and tell you more about why it's important and connect Joan to Susan B. Coleman, right? So Susan B. Coleman is built as a fortress. It's broadcasting messages out everywhere. It's taking Tamika running her through their system to get the cash in the door. And then spamming the health out of her and you, right? You had no interest in the beginning. So you press on subscribe day two. You're out, Tamika, unless she's very motivated-- Yep, part of the same thing, by the end of year one. And so what you do when you have a leaky bucket like that, Joan, and you have all this pressure to get cash in the door, you fill it up again, and keeps leaking, and you fill it up again. Guess who's getting rich? The consultants, Joan. Guess who's getting poor? The non-profits, Joan. Right. It is a system built to make non-profits dependent on that conventional wisdom and leaking money and donors constantly. It's a broken system. And our organizations, and I have done, helped people do development plans over time. And I'll see-- or I'll edit a CEO's development plan or something or kick it up a notch. And I'm like, where's the retention stat? Like-- You can't even-- It's not even on here. It's like, how many donors are we retaining? And what's the strategy for retaining them? And every dot org isn't the strategy, right? Yeah. Yeah. OK, so it is not currently the strategy. It is actually making-- creating a dividend of time, so that I, as the development director, can start to pay attention to a whole world in my donor pipeline that could give, again, if I just attended to them. If I just stewarded them, right? So back to your original question, which is, why don't we love the $25 donor, right? Why did we go right to the-- I need $25,000? All of this has created a system and a pressure to dehumanize the $25 donor. And we know development people would love to talk to the $25 donor. They're doing their work at 10 o'clock at night, and on the weekends, right? Yes. They don't have a second to actually think about donors as human beings, except for the high-dollar donors. Who would they really don't think about as human beings? Anyway, they just want the next check. So we have a system problem that needs a system solution. And the system solution is tech-aided-- not started with tech, right-- but tech is augmenting our focus on making real, true human connections, one-to-one. And I know people who, on the periphery of tech or have felt inundated or felt the terrible data extraction of the social media era saying, that's ridiculous. You can't do that. That was tech leading the way. We need people to lead the way now and tech to take away the noise and the friction in the system. But you can only do that if you see a whole system. Joe, right? Not just one appeal or one message. It's a whole system that has to change. And that's why I came to Every.org to create that system. So I want to get to the comment yet. But before I do, I am reminded-- I can't remember if I told you this story-- that we had a donor at GLAAD who gave $250 solid every year. And he asked for audited financial statements. And there was this-- Hey, me, me, me, me. I don't know what the technical word is for that. But why do I have to send this $250 donor audited financial statements? How hard is that? We don't know anything about this person. That's what he's asked for. Let's send that to him. And year after year, his donation got a little bit bigger, not game-changing. And then finally, he-- finally, I don't know what prompted us to actually do some homework on this person who turned out to be Microsoft employee number four, who, upon his passing, a gentleman of just a wonderful human being gone too soon, left millions of dollars to the LGBT community, including GLAAD at that time. And what I think about when I think about that story is not, you know, like sort of the treasure in the $250 donor, but that he had to actually ask us, right? He had to tell us what he needed in order to continue to contribute. And I don't think it should be like that. Well, and if you hadn't been sitting in that seat, Joan, he would have asked and nobody would have answered. He's trying to bend the culture a certain way. He's trying to reset the default settings. So the default settings inside that organization, right, then, was we're going to tell donors what information they get. They don't get to tell us. They don't get to ask anything, right? And it doesn't warrant. Or his gift doesn't warrant the extra effort. Well, no, his gift, meaning him doesn't warrant, right? Because that's a value, right? Yes, yes. What's always so astonishing to me-- and I have been looking at systems, relational fundraising for years-- what's always astonishing to me, Joan, is how little effort it takes to do is how little people want. They want something, right? But it's not a lot. They want you to know their name. They want you to actually thank them for a gift. They want you to remember something about them. And because we have this system problem of development, staffs being overwhelmed and being in the leaky bucket, right, of operating within the leaky bucket, even that idea of something that small seems overwhelming to them. And that's the tragedy of all of this. Because it is tragic. We're leaving a ton of money on the table. Not only that is it, as you just described, that person who gave money wants to be invited to your party, right? Has said, can I be invited-- I'd like to be invited to this party. I want to be a part of this party. And we didn't actually welcome them in. We didn't say, hey, can I get you some sparkling water? It's like, if you went to young people and you said, we're going to build an organization. We're going to make it really hard to get in. And to really humanly get into the inside of this. We're going to not thank you well for whatever you said. We're going to send you a computer-generated tax receipt for a contribution. Is that a system you want to be a part of? And the answer, of course, is no. That's no human system anybody wants to be a part of. And it is heartbreaking to see how fundamentally entrenched this leaky bucket culture is within organizations. OK, so I want to go back-- I want you to tease out just for a couple of minutes this issue of values, right? Oh my goodness, right? I mean, organizations can, should, think about the values of their organization. They should live those values. They should live them with the clients and the community they serve. I mean, I've certainly seen many examples of organizations whose values externally do not come to life in their offices, right? How did development get left out of the values conversation? And how do we get them back in? Money, Joe. Money, money, money. Money talks. Money talks. And I think it's intimidating for a lot of senior staff and boards to ask questions about fundraising when they don't understand it well. Or it appears that it operates on autopilot over there. And when the answer is so often, that's the way it's done. For instance, asking in every communication, this has always bothered me, Joe. In what world would you ask somebody for money, a friend, every single time you saw them, right? Like that would not be a friendship that you would want to keep. And I think a lot of senior staff and boards have felt that this is a technical area that has clear conventional wisdom and success built into it. And we don't touch that. In fact, I was talking to a development director who had come recently into a legacy organization, an organization that's over 50 years old. She is a deeply, deeply caring person brings all of her values of love and compassion to every part of her work. And yet, she's got this low dollar fundraising department over on the side that is dreadful. I mean, it's like, if I had to pull out an example, Joe, of like what not to do to treat people, you know, just the constant churn of letters out and so on. And I said to her, I know your values aligned and everything you do. But why do you let that happen over there? And she stopped and she said, you know what? It was on autopilot when I got here. I just left it. It brings you money. And I said, no, it does not bring in money. You think it looks like it brings in money. But what does it have? All the costs of having to get those new donors in year after year and the loss of social capital. When you run through people, right? When you don't treat them well. That's costing you this over there. Yes, that is so true. Let's get to every dot orgs. So you said, we don't do that yet. So what is the, where are you headed? So we're going to use both generative AI and other kinds of AI to enable orgs to tell a great story on their profile to be able to customize that story for donors based on other things that they've liked. We're going to teach orgs. We're going to create a content area on our site for information about relational fundraising and how to make the case internally to make that pivot. How do you go to the board table and tell them, here's how we have to remake fundraising. We've got to stop doing some things here. From the beginning of our conversation, Jim, we'd already said, stopping doing things is not a nonprofit forte, right? Asking less often is going to feel risky for organizations that are wildly to begin with. So we're going to give them the tools, the data, the instructions, the support to be able to make the case internally. And we want to be the online hub for relational fundraising. I think that is a, that's a terrific North Star, isn't it? No wonder you're giddy. So we're just about out of time. And I guess I want to ask you this question. Let's say I run a million dollar nonprofit. Maybe less. There's somebody who runs development, I guess, maybe, right? It is many of the things that you describe. Tell me how I should walk away from this conversation and engage with every dot org. What would you do if you were me? I would actually start to figure out the real costs of my fundraising, both money out the door. 'Cause if you're not using us, you're spending a lot of money on transactional platforms and software. Yes. But also on the retention rates. And that's social. Right? And so trying to do a bit of an audit of what fundraising is costing me. Exactly how it happens in our systems as well as the opportunity lost. Opportunity lost. And, and Joan, we've talked about this before. You know what, pick up the phone, call 20 low dollar donors and ask them how you make them feel. Why do they stay? What brought them here in the first place? How could they become an ambassador? I know that picking up the phone sounds like a lot of work to somebody. You could do this in two hours of time and you would know more about your donors than you have ever known before, right? Absolutely. Then I want to get into that boardroom and I want to reorient what they're asking for in terms of the metrics that they're using for success. That donor retention rate needs to be right on the table. Because I've never been at a board table when it's their laser focus on donor retention. And just focusing on it, Joan, just raising it and putting sunlight on it will make a huge difference. You don't have to change anything else. You just have to start paying attention to it. Then come to us, create your profile, reduce your costs and start thinking about how you want to tell your story to donors and when you want to ask them for funding, right? Could it be, you don't ask them for three months at a time? Could you look at that? What might happen? Because if you can get that donor retention rate up, you could start to actually treat all of your donors like human beings. - There's some like, there's some really good nonverbals going here that involve fists up in the air just so you know, I can see it, you can see it. - A little celebration. - Yeah, so what I do is I gather information, so I'm an ED, I gather information about the cost of fundraising, the opportunity lost from donor retention. And I go to my board and I say, this is the current way that we approach fundraising and what it costs us and it is time for us to start to focus on the retention of our donors and have that conversation and storytelling. And let's take a look at this, right? And we have found a very interesting option for us that will enable us to have systems and tools that will enable us to actually talk to our donors. - And to be a values aligned the entire way. - Right, right? - Yeah, right. - Have a balance statement you have as an organization, match it up initially with your low dollar fundraising, it won't match up, right? Build a system that matches your values. - The other thing, and then I'll let you go, but this is where I am a huge proponent of stewardship programs, board stewardship programs for exactly this reason, right? It's to exercise the muscle of interacting with donors, asking them questions just like you suggested to understand their role as ambassadors and storytellers and to have more touch points with donors that don't involve will you renew? Will you upgrade? Will you make a gift of X, right? If your entire organization is in this business of nurturing, right? Just like you nurtured your clients or your community. Just like you advocate for your causes, advocate for your donors, right? And this is what this kind of platform is going to make possible. And that is something really joyful because if you can do that, and I bet on you, Allison, fine, if you can do that, then you actually give me as a donor a big fat gift. A big fat gift. You have made me feel valued. It made me feel like I am part of your work. You have given me an injection of meaning and purpose that I am so feckin' hungry for. And that's what people miss about fundraising in general. It's such a gift. And so too is your work. I'm delighted to have you with us. And I'm excited to see where every.org is going and encourage every single person who's listening today, fly on over there, just have a little drive through before you get your ducks in a row to start to really shift the conversation in your organization because it can really make a difference. Allison, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your work and for decades of investment in really what has been, I think, really valued. It's all about values driven fundraising, using technology as a vehicle to allow that to happen. And that's a pretty good jam, Allison. - Thank you for having me, Joan. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. - I couldn't agree more. Great conversation. For those of you who are listening, I hope you enjoyed it. Every.org. It's pretty easy to remember. Allison, fine, it's president. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for the work you're doing. Get out there and tell some great stories. And take good care of yourself. We'll see you next time. - Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other resources at johngarry.com. Hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and square. I'll see you next time.