EP 2 - The Storyteller: Narcissist's Playbook

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That's code Jana at ResortPass.com/jana. - Hello and welcome to episode two of the storyteller, Narcissist Playbook. Before we begin, I'm sure many of you listening now will know what the isolation of abuse feels like. Or maybe you have loved one that you're concerned about. You're not alone. And that's why I want to signpost you to a free global community. You can access from your phone for information and support. The Star Network exists to give you a lifeline. It stands for Survivors of Toxic Abusive Relationships, Not Victims, Survivors. You can join it daily, tar and non-meetups and feel heard and empowered by joining this virtual trauma network. It's an honor to have this episode sponsored by Star Network, which is a non-profit. Please go and check out starnetwork.org. I'll put the details in the show notes. If you don't break the trauma, the trauma will break you. In 2023, I met filmmaker Mark Vicente in Los Angeles. I was a fan of his work having seen what the bleep do we know down the rabbit hole years earlier. I was also where he'd survived a cult and played a part in taking down the whole organisation and its leader. So when a mutual friend invited me to meet him, I jumped at the chance. Little did I know a year later, I'd be boarding multiple planes to Southeastern Europe at his request to confront a predator. Mark's originally from South Africa. He's married to a beautiful soul bonny from Australia. You can't help but like him. I see a lot of similarities between us. We've both dedicated our lives to asking questions and covering the truth and seeking justice. We both work insane hours to our detriment and little reward. But between us, we've helped put a number of people behind bars. When I met him for a coffee on a sunny day, I didn't know we'd end up on a mission together. It's important you hear the backstory of how I became involved in the narcissist playbook and now doing this podcast accompaniment to the documentary. I carried out this interview with Mark just days after the confrontation with Sam when we were both still decompressing. He begins by explaining his path to delving into the world of narcissistic personality disorder. In 2017, I had been at that point working with an organisation for 12 years and I discovered because my wife was much smarter than me. Realised that there were some really malicious and evil things going on in the organisation. I was at that point very brainwashed by the cult leader. And when I finally woke up because of my wife, she basically just kept on putting evidence in front of me and I finally realised holy shit. Some really bad things are happening in this organisation. All of this is covered in the HBO series of The Vow. And she showed me a number of articles to try to help, in essence, unbrainwash me. And one of the articles she showed me was about spiritual narcissism and then about how narcissists respond to you. And I was scheduled to have a call. I had now realised that this organisation was a cult. I was scheduled to have a call with the cult leader about I can't even remember what anymore. And she said before you talked to him, she didn't want me to talk to him. She said before you talked to him, read this article. And the article was something like the 20 or 25 strategies that a narcissist will use to basically gaslight/head fuck you. So I read the article, it was fascinating. I got on the phone with him and I realised as I was talking that he began to go through all the strategies that was described in the article. And so when I finally hung up, I realised I'm never going to talk to this man again, ever. And from that point on, the only time I ever saw him again was in court two years later. So I became obsessed with understanding narcissism. I guess I didn't really understand what it was because the term was used in the organisation. Like the higher level coaches and things were talking about, well, so and so has narcissistic tendencies or so and so is a narcissist. And I thought it was just being full of yourself. I didn't understand how profoundly complex it was, you know, that what I was looking at in the case of my particular cult leader who I considered my mentor was a wolf not only in sheep's clothing, it was like a wolf in saints clothing. And this was horrifying to me. So I threw myself into studying narcissism. A few years later, you know, there's a lot that happened. You know, he got arrested. A bunch of the other people got arrested. Huge massive, federal trial. You know, he goes to prison. He's now in prison for 120 years. He has 118 years to go. So he will die in prison. And my wife said to me at one point, she says, you know what you should do for your next project? Why don't you make a film about narcissism? And I thought, oh, that's interesting. So I began doing a ton of research. And one of the places I went to, I went online to look at the so-called self-confessed narcissist because I was trying to understand my cult leader's mind and pathology. And I saw a number of different people online. And I thought, you know, it would be really interesting to interview these people, because this is like straight from the horse's mouth. So I then reached out to a friend of mine who I'd worked with many times, Scott Altamari. Scott and I had worked in Hollywood years ago, like in the '90s, we made a whole bunch of movies together. Scott also worked on what the bleep do we know. And I reached out to him and I said, hey, listen, there's a movie I want to make. Are you interested in hearing about it? He says, tell me. And I told him what it was all about. He says, I am so in. And the reason he was so in was because his dad, his father, has the pathology. And he didn't know that until his father went to prison. That's when he finally realized, oh, shit, this is what I'm dealing with. So we began to do a bunch of research, you know, watch a lot of videos. We then, we were trying to figure out how to get this film made. And because of, you know, the vow and all the different connections, I had reached out to Lin Lear, who became our other producer. And she really wanted to help me sort of, you know, take the next step in my life after having been in a horrible organization for like 12 years at that point. So she came on as a producer. So that's sort of the genesis of it. We began by reaching out to sort of the cult experts like, you know, Dr. Romani. I called Dr. Romani one day. I said, hey, I don't know if you know who I am. She says, I know exactly who you are. I said, fantastic. I'm in town. Do you want to have lunch? She said, great. And the vow opened a lot of doors that people would be willing to talk to me because they knew what I'd been through. They knew that I'd battled the monster. They knew that we'd won, which was very unusual. And so I began sitting down with these people. And I said to Romani, listen, I want to make a film about this. Would you be in it? And so all these amazing people sort of came forward. You know, Evan Rachel Wood had reached out to Bonnie and I a few years before. I reached out to Evan. I said, hey, Evan, I'm making this movie. Are you interested in being in it blah, blah, blah. And everybody just said, yes. Then we began reaching out to the self-confess narcissist. And I don't remember who the first person was. It was either Sam Vakten or HG Tudor. HG Tudor, I only ever got to do an audio interview with because he never allowed me to know where he lived. He has a very posh British accent. But his contact was somewhere in Eastern Europe. It was very-- just getting him a microphone was incredibly complex. And reaching out to Sam Vakten was pretty easy because he seemed to really like the idea of being in a film. And I had actually seen the film I Psychopath years and years ago, the Australian film. And that's what fascinated me so much. There was a part in the film that I actually used in the sizzle reel to raise money for empathy, not included, where he talks-- he says to the interview or something about-- because you think I'm human. And the interviewer says something like, are you not? And he goes, not even remotely or something like that. And I thought, well, that's really interesting. And that's interesting because Keith Renieri had described psychopaths as being a different species. You know, he would say things like, well, men and women to some degree are sort of like a different species in terms of the way they think. But psychopaths are really in other species. Like they're nothing like you slash us. What I never understood is that everything he was talking about Renieri, he was describing his own pathology. Now, the question still remains, did he really understand? He understood he was unusual. So you know, some people have said to me, well, you know, is this film like you're just trying to get back at, you know, all these horrible people? Not really. What it is though is my cult leader never confessed anything six weeks in court still basically held the position that he was God's gift to humanity. Ever actually spoke in court, I was convinced he would. And me being able to talk to, you know, in essence, in this film, we have fourth self-confessed narcissist at varying degrees of psychopathy. I got to understand how Renieri's mind worked, which was in essence very healing for me. Because I never got any kind of closure in that way. We got the closure, he was put in prison, but I never got the closure of like, what's it like inside of him? And talking to these four individuals that are now in the film, I feel like I started to understand, oh, that's what's going on inside. So that's my long rambling answer for the genesis of this thing. And a very good explanation, very concise. And I think you and I are similar that we like to understand, investigate, have facts in our engineer so that we can understand things, and you like I, we have a few brain cells between us. And I think that we would, if someone had asked us when we were younger, if we would have our full victim to an narcissist or someone brainwashing us, we'd say absolutely not. And I, without going into my situation, I was more personal with the relationship, but exactly the same thing. The journey you've been on has been a real roller coaster, you've had a lot of good things come out of this film, but then there's been a real, a real life horror story unfold before your eyes. Tell me about that. Yeah, that was so interesting. So we're now in 2024 in, was a 2023, February 2023. I think it was Sam Vaktan that reached out to me. He called me, I believe, and he said to me, and this is after we had, we'd had a version of the film that was, was very good. Sam was all over the film. He was a sort of a resident expert who had the pathology. He was a very compelling character. You know, he said some really, you know, dark things and he sort of, you know, channeling the darkness kind of thing. And he had introduced me to Richard Grannon and Richard Grannon, I was aware of who was an online personality, you know, he was a psychologist from the UK. We spoke a lot about narcissism and he and Sam were working together and Sam Vaktan said to me, you should talk to Richard. And so finally, you know, I talked to Richard and we shot a bunch of stuff together. So the first shoot with Sam was Macedonia. The second shoot with Sam was with Richard as well in Prague. Sam reached out to me and said, there's a huge smear campaign against him February 2023 and like these, all these people that are lying about them and Richard Grannon is an awful human being and he's turned against him. And what the can of worms that begins opening up is I begin talking to some of Sam Vaktan's patients, prior patients that he saw as a therapist. And one of them messages me and says, you know, do you know that Sam Vaktan is a really evil man? And I go, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, he's a bad guy. He's a bad guy who's, you know, now trying to teach people about narcissism. And they said, no, no, no, no, no, he's an evil man ago. Yeah, yeah, I know he says his evil. They say, no, no, no, he is evil and they begin telling me what he's done to them. And I was like, oh, shit, because this is not the case of somebody who's a bad guy who reformed and who basically teaches people how to avoid people like him. This is a man who's still doing all those horrible things while teaching people about horrible people like himself. And the stories were just incredible. You know, the stories of basically, you know, destroying people's minds of this thing called cult therapy, you know, where he would basically find out what their trauma was and then put them back in the trauma. So if their trauma was sexual abuse, then he's going to sexually abuse them to put them back in the trauma again. And I was like, that's the first of all, the dumbest thing I've ever heard and also the most horrible thing I've ever heard. You know, he's talking about adopting, you know, adopting one of his clients. I think more than one of his clients because he wanted to adopt her as his daughter so he could have sex with his daughter. I mean, just really weird and twisted things. And I remember thinking, oh, shit, now what? Like what do I do now? Because now we've shot all this stuff with him as the expert. And then I'm thinking, oh, Jesus, and now there's Richard Grannon, who's basically been acting as his right hand man, just, I mean, what the hell is going on there? And it just so happens as I'm sitting there, you know, and Scott Ultimari and I are talking about it and like, what the hell are we going to do? Richard Grannon calls me. I don't need a week off. Just a day to rest and recharge would be amazing. I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in Spa Nashville. And I'm like, wow, why am I just learning about ResortPass? I'm Breladrink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me. And I'm thinking, this is exactly what I needed. Luxury Resort day pass has started just $25. It's a great deal. Andy and Anna here from your new favorite podcast, no such thing as a fish. Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy? Yes, how about this one? Antieters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. Mysterious, wonderful. The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When a Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs. So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish. And I say, he said, have you heard, I have? What the hell is going on and he says, well, basically, you know, Sam and I had this sort of fight. Sam just went off at me as he has many times in the past. And I found out what he's been doing. And I said, yes, it's really horrible. And I said to Richard, like, so now what, he goes, well, I'm basically taking everything off YouTube that Sam and I have ever done because I cannot have anything up there anymore. This man is an absolute monster. And I thought for a moment, I thought, what do I do, what do I do, what do I do? And then Scott and I spoke about it. And then I think Sam called me again. And I said, well, Sam, I need to record this because I need to now follow this line of inquiry. He says, yo, you don't have to follow anything. It's all lies. I'm like, well, maybe it is lies, but it's here now. I can't ignore it, you know, as a filmmaker, I can't ignore what I'm, what I'm finding out. He says, it's just all lies. It's all blah, blah, blah. He wouldn't let me record it. So we spent the next few months talking to a lot of victims. We ended up talking to six victims. They were deeply traumatized. I spent a fair amount of time following Richard Grannon around as he was dealing with his shock of realizing a that this man was actually a monster, a real monster because Richard had thought, oh, this is part of a stick, which I can understand. And realizing it's not and then Richard with his deep sense of, you know, responsibility of like, what have I done? I've given this man a major platform that's allowed him to hurt all these people. Richard is now talking to all these women who refuse therapy, who are very, very damaged. And what we decide to do is, well, why don't we just follow the story and see where it takes us. And so the film is interesting because, you know, it starts with all this informational stuff and it's, it's very educational and those that have seen it already have said, like, holy shit, I really understand it, narcissism and narcissistic abuse in a way I never have before. And then it takes this right hand turn when you realize that the expert is actually the monster. So it goes from being somewhat educational to now suddenly it turns into a thriller. And, you know, when you're making films, you always hope that something interesting will happen. You know, but you never know what it is. That's the thing I like and dislike about documentaries. You know, I spent many years making feature films in narrative. Documentaries are another beast because you don't know. You have a theory. The first casualty is the theory, the plan, always. And this seemed like like the end of the world to us. And then suddenly we thought, well, maybe it's not. Like, what if this is an interesting twist? And so that became the twist in the film that most people. Well, so we currently have a cut, but we're recutting most people with the current cuts. And this is, you know, we're now in November 2024. Don't see it coming. They don't see coming that the expert who they've learned to like, who we have allowed the audience to get emotionally close to, to care for him, because of the trauma, his childhood trauma allegedly, because we don't know if it's true. You really feel for the man, and you feel for his damage, and he talks about how empty he is inside, and he has a big cry about it. And then you realize like, oh, Jesus, this is all just a game to him. This is all for show. So that end of the world moment became the most exciting thing about the film. When the audience gets fooled, the same way that we got fooled. Like, it's not like we didn't know he was a bad dude. Like, we knew that. You know, we knew that he was, you know, he was rude to people, and he screamed at people, and he was, you know, nasty. And we knew all of that, but we didn't understand that it was, no, no, no. Beneath the game of I'm a bad man was true evil. That was pretty surprising to us. And so we take the audience through that experience as well, where they also get to have the shock. And what's cool about it is some of the audience gets invested in him being a really interesting cool man, and then realizes, oh, my God, I can't believe I supported this. This guy, and the reason that's so important is because coming out of a cult, I began to realize, I'm not exactly a stupid person. I'm not saying I'm brilliant. I'm just not stupid. But how did I fall for 12 years? How did I fall for a ruse, a psychopath who was toying with me for 12 years? Well, there's a lot to it. There's obviously our own blind spots, but you can't imagine being like these people. Our nervous systems, for most people that have some empathy, our nervous system, our brains are not capable of imagining being in their shoes. And so I thought, you know, if I could figure out a way to help people understand how this happens. And so it's perfect because now the audience, most people get fooled. And most people go like, oh, shit, that's how it happens. You know, you get kind of maybe seduced by the information, maybe seduced by the, you know, there are people that watch the film and before they realize who Sam Vacken is, they think he's cool and amazing, you know, and he's kind of like, he's got this thing about him. And you know, not a particularly attractive man, but like there's something about that confidence that some woman has said to me, like that confidence is like, it's so attractive. And I'm like, okay, and now how do you feel? I go, no, no, it's horrible, but they talk about how it's easy to get fooled by that level of confidence. So that was the gift, you know, of reality that's taken the film to the next level. And watching it through that lens myself, although I think I did know what was coming, but I absolutely agree with you that what's so clever is the viewer lifetime going on that ride, even momentarily, because I think one of them was challenging things that you and I have as storytellers when we're telling stories of abuse that's not a punch in the face. People understand that, that's physical abuse, that's not okay. But when it comes to mental abuse, the subtleties, the insidious drip, drip, the calculated actions of one person to truly harm another, well, all while masking it as being, I am your greatest supporter, greatest protector, your fixer, as you say, a savior, a wolf and savior's clothing, to actually, as humans, to really, really absorb that there are people that bad. We can all do bad, we can all be selfish, we can all tell a white lie that this is pure calculated manipulation and destruction. So yeah, it's a very clever thing. But you find yourself at this point in the film, although this is fascinating, you felt that the journey was not yet over, because all you're getting is him saying it's a rise. Yeah, and this is what's so cool. I want to tell, I want to tell your audience the story of what happened. So, you know, we, this thing happens and now we're trying to get another interview with Sam. And we're just not getting anywhere, because he's, I think he's starting to get scared that they might be, you know, cases against him, he doesn't want to travel anymore. He's worried that there's women all over the world that might be reporting him. And I was in L.A. doing some screenings of the cut where you find out that Sam gets exposed for who he is, but we don't have the last interview. So then our mutual friend Dennis, like, I'm in L.A. spending a lot of time with him. This was in October, September, October, 2023. And he's introduced me to a ton of people. And I know you know this. I want your audience to know what happened. And he says to me, hey, I'm going to go to, you know, somewhere in Beverly Hills and like coffee bean or whatever it was. And there's a bunch of people I want you to meet. And there's this journalist you got to meet. And he's really fascinating. And now the reason that Dennis and I had met is because Dennis had seen the vow and Dennis said, I really, I would love to talk to you. And I, and I knew Dennis, not personally, I sort of seen him, because he used to have a gallery in Hollywood. And I went to some of his gallery showings before I was always just too embarrassed and shy to actually say hi to him, you know, because he was like such an amazing photographer. So I met him in downtown. This is, I'm just backtracking. And he told me all about his family and like the psychopathy and his family and like all the shit he's dealt with. And it was just an amazing, amazing discussion. And both being, you know, lovers of photography, him being, you know, a real photographer, we really bonded. So anytime he said I want you to meet somebody, I was always like, okay, great, I'm in. So I remember that you and I met and had coffee. We spoke for hours. I was very jacked up in coffee and not enough food. And you told me your story, you know, about who you were and like, you know, and my impression of you was just how brave slash insane you were to do some of the things that you've done. You know, and you had a stalker and you dealt with a lot of these personalities. And you know, you went into crazy places to look for killers. And I was like Jesus Christ. This woman is crazy and insane. But like it was, I was like, oh my God, what, what bravery. And it was great. And then I just, you know, I went back to Europe. And I just sort of thought, well, you know, Sunday we need to reconnect kind of thing. And then one day, I don't know what happened. I was sitting there and I was talking to my wife about like, I'm not sure how to solve this. And I really want this, this, this last interview, because the audience was feeling at that time with test screenings that they didn't have the satisfaction of him been confronted. And suddenly I thought to myself, you know, I la. What if I, yeah, what if I went in. And then I thought, and what if we meet her earlier in the film, we realize who she is. And she's investigating a whole bunch of things. And then we realized like she's in it. She's also investigating him. And she goes to get the last interview. And I decided that this was truly a brilliant idea. And I thought, I don't know if people are going to go for this. I called Scott Altamore. I'm a producer of Scott and I said, this is Scott, I have an idea. You haven't met her yet, but this is an amazing journalist. And I'm pretty sure if I pitched this to her, she might, she might maybe go first. So he said, give it a try. So I told my wife about the idea. She said, it's amazing. And I remember calling you and pitching you the idea, thinking, thinking that you would say, well, you know, let me think about it, you know, because you know, maybe potentially dangerous. And I just remember how fast you said yes, which is like, yes, sounds great. And I'm like, holy shit, this is going to be so interesting. And part of the reason it was interesting is because, you know, you have, you have the guts, you have the ovaries to go and do it. But also appearance wise, you're very, very beautiful and, you know, very, very glamorous. And I thought, you know, Sam might like that too. And I remember saying that to you, you know, feeling very awkward about it. But like, God, I hope you don't think I'm being like, you know, weird about it. But like it just so happens that you know, you, you probably will be his type. And I just remember how much you like embrace the idea. And I thought, oh, my God, you like a little bit crazy like me. That's amazing. And that was, you know, that was back in, I think January or February of this year. as well. And then we planned over many, many, many months how to get that final interview. So I'm just saying all of this because I wanted your audience to understand like how all this came together, you know. - Thank you. And yes, you've described it very well. And I remember meeting you. And I watched what the bleep do we know down the rabbit hole. And I really loved it. I told everyone to watch it. I was late to the game. I think I'd moved to LA. So you'd been deep in the cult at that point. But it really appealed to me. And obviously, I mean, I've had a brush, very small brush with a cult branding itself as a leadership course for a few days, but really it's not. It's a pyramid cult thing. So I had an understanding of that as well. And what I am always drawn to is despite my career being in true crime, which a lot of people, I mean, I think rightly so. I like hold on your, you know, your, what's the word? You're shining a light on bad people who really don't deserve it. Or you're taking advantage of victims. My works, the exact opposite. I'm all about resolution, solution, focusing on the victim, giving them a name, making them 3D, and usually they're dead. And I really, really, really want to proactively help prevent having been a victim of crime myself, education is key, and exposing the bad people. And having gone through a court case and everything, I also see how the law very much protects the human rights and privacy of the bad people way over the victims and the victims are literally retraumatized. So it was for me to stop someone harming people, to expose someone, and literally I believe save lives with something that really peeled to me. So that's where I never think in myself as being brave, although I just don't, I just, whatever. And I'm not being a dickhead, saying that. I just, I just do what I do. And for me to feel like, well, things, I feel like to be proactively involved in something like that. So what I just want to share with people, my feelings was, I mean, I was obviously concerned because I did know, having watched the film, that he literally says something. If you, if you slight me, I will come after you and I will never stop. You, on a Wednesday, five years down the line when you don't expect me to come, I'm going to come for you, that kind of thing. But I also knew enough about him, not traveling to countries, in terms of physical violence, probably being scared of that and a bit of a wimp, but he does have a power. So yeah, there, there was a thought there, I've like, hmm, do I want to do this? But then overall, I wanted to be part of this project to help you guys. And I know, I know what has gone into this. The blood, sweat and tears, emotion. The millions of conversations you've probably had with your wife. This is not a, you don't have a job where you go in and come home and, you know, the day is over. It consumes you very much like me. So we are all the same cloth. And yeah, if I could do something to help, I wanted to do that. And yeah, we, then what happened was, I came up with, hey, this is perfect timing. I actually need to interview someone with this expertise about this case that I'm working on right now. A big murder case happened 45 years ago. I did a documentary 21 years ago. Confronted the killer. It took a long time for DNA and various other things. But ultimately part of my documentary help persuade the Crown to take him to trial and, you know, with age of eight to use jailed. And I thought this is perfect because the killer is a scientist, very intelligent narcissist, psychopath, whatever, I'm lovely blend of all those, a cocktail of it. And I thought this is going to appeal to Sam Vacknen because this is not some, you know, average murder. This is someone who almost committed the perfect murder. But what was interesting was, when I contacted him, he said, his ego got challenged. Like, I'm not speaking about someone else. I'm not even going to listen to the evidence. I'll just do, so I obviously had to agree with whatever he said. And, you know, like the viewers of the film and the people who listen to this, he is so interesting. He is so knowledgeable. He literally, I mean, he genuinely is a world-leading expert in narcissism. But he is also extremely evil, as you say. But what I think so interesting is, we are learning from him how, you know, he's confessing his crimes on camera. And he is educating people. But as you've detailed, he's also using that as a hunting ground to bait in the most vulnerable of people. So, yeah, and that's where I mean, there's so much to be said about you, Sam. What were you, I mean, to go back a bit? What were your impressions of, Sam, the very first time you met him? - Well, in the conversations we were having, he was very controlling. There was something that was strangely familiar about him because he wasn't that far off from my cult leader. He was just much more impulsive and much more childish. You know, he was trying to be, he was trying to be this big, important somebody, stuck in the body of somebody who didn't look like that. And there was just a lot of obstacles, and you know, you can talk about that as well. The obstacles you had to deal with eventually, you know, much later. But he would say things that one colleague said to me, you know, I'm not willing to be out, portrayed as the monster in your film. I said, okay. And then literally probably 10 minutes later, he said, there's nobody better than me to show you what a monster's like. And I'm like, oh, he's like, he's crazy. Like there's like different compartments in his brain. - This is Jana Kramer from Wine Down with Jana Kramer. I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in Spa Nashville, and I'm like, wow, why am I just learning about resort pass? I'm Brella Drink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me, and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed. It's a great deal. - Andy and Anna here from your new favorite podcast, no such thing as a fish. - Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. - Yes, how about this one? Antietas have evolved on 12 separate occasions. - Wow. - Mysterious, wonderful. - The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels, warning them to be aware of George Bush's dogs. - So there you go. - So the way I handled it was, so Scott was just a little more distant and very like Grey Rockish with him. I was very ingratiating, very respectful, treating him like this incredible mind. At the same time, I recognized I couldn't be too much of a doormat. So sometimes when he would argue with me, I sort of argue back or he'd make a quip and I joke back with him. I mean, at one point, there's this scene where he's on top of this turret in a castle in Macedonia. And I said, Sam, I want you up here. I'm going to shoot you here and I'm going to do drone and he goes, why there? And I go, 'cause it looks amazing. He goes, well, I don't like it up there. We went on and on and on and on. And I said, what the hell's the problem? It's an amazing shot. And I was just being and I was being pushy with him. And he says, I don't like heights. And I said, oh, come on, Sam, you know what I'm gonna, let that get the better of you. I mean, you're gonna look like a god up here. Come on. You know, and you basically just will fuck you and you sort of start walking up. So I didn't treat him that differently than I would any other subject. I was just aware that, you know, I'm dealing with somebody very unpredictable. I also, by the way, had another camera running because I assumed that at some point he would lose his shit at me or one of us. So I had another camera. We had like, I think we were running with two cameras all the time and I had a third camera constantly shooting behind the scenes because I believed he would lose his shit. He only lost his shit once on that shoot in Macedonia. Not on camera. I was in a car. with him on the way down the hill from the castle. And he said to me, "Can you make sure you're not recording me?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm not recording you." And I sat in the back seat while he began to berate this woman, who I don't know who she was, and I was really thinking, "Wait, but he's married. Who's this person?" And he was screaming at her at a level of volume that was astounding. And one of the production drivers was driving, and he was sitting in the front seat, and I was sitting in the back, and I was just like, "My God, that's just horrible. The way he's treating this person." It turns out later that I think I was privy to some of the screaming matches he was having with some of the woman I would meet in the future. The one surprising thing, you know, and it's really interesting in the film, is I kept on waiting to see, "How can I push past this persona?" Because, you know, he loves just going on and on and on and on and on and on and on, and I was constantly trying to get him to talk about, "Okay, but what's it like inside you?" You know? And I remember the thing that happened right before the crying scene, the crying scene in the film is the final thing we shot in Macedonia. And I pushed him because I thought, "You know what, something doesn't make sense. He keeps on going about how there's nothing inside, it's empty inside, you know, he doesn't feel anything." And I'm thinking, "How can you not feel anything?" You're like, "Is that a rage attack?" Yesterday. So I thought I'd push him on, and I think the question was something like, "Sam, you know, you keep talking about the emptiness inside of you." Like, "Are you sure it's empty?" Because like, when I check in, there's something there. When most people check in, there's something there. Are you sure it's not just something you say because you want to have the biggest emptiness of everybody? Like, you want to be the most important empty person in the world? And I just left it hanging there, and he just got quiet. And I thought, "What's going on? Is he about to lose it?" And then, as you see in the film, he goes into this meltdown. And I think what happened is that intellectually, I sort of check-mated him, and there was no way to go intellectually, so he resorted to some very childlike behavior. And he has this complete meltdown on camera, which I wasn't sure what I was watching. It's like, you know, when you watch something happen, like a building fall over something, and you watch it like you've frozen just watching the thing. It's almost like it's not real. And I couldn't tell, like, "Is this real? Is he really crying?" And I wasn't sure, because when the evening was done, and it was too dark to continue shooting, and we were like, "That's it." He suddenly switched into, "Did you bring the wine?" You know, because Scott had to bring wine. Yes, so he wanted to start drinking, and I said, "But you have diabetes." He goes, "Ah, it's fine." I was like, "That's interesting." Then we went back to the hotel, and he was hitting on, you know, some woman in the hotel. So that, once he left, I went outside to this bar. All the crew was sitting there, and I said, "Guys, before we continue, just let me ask you, did you guys buy any of that?" And they all said, "No, we didn't." I was like, "Ah, that's interesting." So I think, for me, partially, some of these sort of empathy pulled a bit, and when they said they didn't buy it, and then we began reflecting back on, "Yeah, I think it was just a ploy." Like, maybe he really did have a suffering moment, and maybe he really was feeling sorry for himself, but he's constantly playing with people and toying with people. It's a bit like, you know, a children of a certain age. They try every single thing they can to get out of something or get what they want. And that's what I began to realize. I began to realize that what I was dealing with was a toddler in a man's body, but still had toddler impulses, you know. I will say, though, that I was never really afraid of him. The other character, H.G. Tudor, is my understanding, and I think he would say this, he is a full-blown psychopath with no anxiety and no fear. That man is terrifying. And I will ask you more about H.G. Tudor separately, because there's just so much to pick over there. What was it like for you, you know, in the future, when you were reflecting back on the fact that that I bursty had in the car? The confidence of this man who knew what he was doing at that time, and we now know he was abusing multiple women at the same time. He was actually doing that in front of you. Now, he did check that you weren't recording, but literally that was part of his crime. How did you feel when you joined the dots of, like, I heard that? I think I was shocked at the level of depravity that this man, the things that this man had done to these women, like sexually, emotionally, psychologically. And I just thought to myself, my God, that he was doing all of that while we were shooting. You know, in Prague, as well, because our Russian victim said to me, "Yeah, he was destroying me when he was in Prague." And in Prague, he had brought a woman to be there in the audience. And again, I was thinking, "Oh, so I guess he has an open marriage or something." And he brought the woman to sit in the audience from, I don't know where she's from, I think she was like Bulgaria or something. And she sits there as he begins to talk to the audience about what he does to women. And she's sitting in the audience, this woman that he's invited out for, I don't know, Prague sex or whatever. And I'm like, looking at this woman, and you can see she's kind of decompensating. You can see she's just like, like, just collapsing in and herself. And I'm like, "Man, that's just horrible." But again, you know, I've spent time in Hollywood. I've seen people in Hollywood do the same shit. That wasn't that surprising. You know, that somebody has a wife and, you know, has a girlfriend and is banging the lead actress. I mean, okay, that's Hollywood. This was different, though. To see what he'd done to them. And this was their big concern that some of them shared. They said, "We're very worried, you're about to turn Sam Vaktan into a legend." And he's not. Please don't do that. And I'm really glad they did because I had it gone the other way and had I not heard about these things. I probably would have ended up turning him into somebody that everybody would want to go to for advice. Thank goodness that they told me everything because as it stands right now, I think the level of horror people are going to feel about him is extraordinary. I didn't feel the sense of responsibility of like, "Oh my God, look what I've supported." Like I did, you know, with the whole culture and everything that this was different because this was really just me following, you know, following the story and following the characters. But I truly was horrified at what he had done to these women and how damaged they were. And interestingly, it's actually being part of your film that, let's say encouraged his ego to use that against these victims as a silencing tool. I'm about to become a star of this documentary. I'm going to become world famous with this really well-respected filmmaker. And that, I believe, is what made or I've heard from one of the victims that someone had at least written a message on LinkedIn. I don't know if that got you or not. But one of the first steps was we need to let this filmmaker know that he's a bad guy. So if he hadn't been boasting to his victim, saying, "You're not going to be believed," then we wouldn't have ended up here. So it has turned out wonderfully. And as I've already sort of covered, one of the greatest challenges is the audience understanding. And this whole whole film, empathy, not included, and what we're asking for is empathy because it's very easy, like with the cult or other circumstances to say, "Well, why didn't you just leave? Why didn't you just never answer an email? Why didn't you just, and what they don't understand is whether it's a cult leader, your partner, a family member, or whatever the circumstance might be, you are in a prison that you do not realize you're in." Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. And it's been so obsessive of me. With the vow, with HBO's the vow, I mean, the vow was about to come out. And we had a whole discussion. And it was both Bonnie and myself were saying to the editing room, like, "You guys have unfortunately not shown the audience what we were attracted to." Because like, what is now episode one in the vow, which is almost an hour, was like five minutes. And I said, "That's not enough to have the audience understand. What did we fall in love with?" And we were fighting for, there's an old episode one that shows the dream. Let's bring it back in the huge thing with HBO because HBO were like, [BLANK_AUDIO] You've locked the things with like no, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's not gonna work if we don't have episode the old episode won't back so we put that back in and I think it's it's and then people could go like oh my people would say to me after a few episodes Like oh my god, I totally would have joined that thing. I totally would have joined and when you look at What Sam's offering if you go to Sam's YouTube? I mean look he has a lot of groupies some of them are not well But he's given a lot of people answers You know, and so I get why people watch his stuff, you know He posts something and he gets you thousands and thousands of views in the first hour because People are so desperate to make sense of what they went through and as long as you don't get near him and have any kind of personal relationship with them Yeah, he's got great advice, you know, I mean he does have a Depth of understanding about Narcissism that's actually breathtaking. That's the thing that's so locked up about this Like it's actually fucking breathtaking what he understands You know his whole co-mothering thing the co- idealization stuff. I mean, it's like really good stuff You know the way, you know, and this is this this is not new I'm about to say but the way you know the Narciss creates an internal object of the person. That's not the real thing You know that that you know is from older literature, but the thing is he's able to deliver it in such a way that you go like Yeah, I get it. I get it. I get it. So is he doing a service to humanity? Kind of. Yeah, just don't get close to the fire. I think I I'm starting to see it like any serial killer, you know, and though he's not a serial killer physically I think he's kind of a serial killer emotionally, psychically There's value in studying them Because you understand how they work, but what he's done, and this I hope I can explain this He's taken people who are hurt and he's invited them into his world to get healed But his world is actually psychotic So they calibrate themselves from their trauma to an even more psychotic world and Think that that's reality Until hopefully they wake up and then they're like, oh my god, and then now they're even more messed up than they were before You know because he said I'm gonna take you from hell and give you he doesn't say this But I give you heaven, but then you realize no the heaven he's giving you is even worse hell That's why it's taking His victims so long To recover and they don't want therapy anymore because that's what he gave them therapy Just the concept of therapy. They don't want therapy because that's what they were hurt It is self-sealing. I think it's how you described it crime He has he has Traumatized them to the point where they can't get fixed because he was supposed to be the fix and also he has used ammunition their deepest darkest You know secrets and insecurities and vulnerabilities and shame He has got in an arsenal and he then goes to the real dirty tricks of I'm going to tell your family I'm going to tell your boss. I'm going to destroy you and a very very common tactic of abusers No one will believe you because I'm so important and smart so he's And this is why he's as arrogant as grown and when I'm interviewing he keeps saying, you know I can't believe I'm getting rid of it. You all must be so stupid. It's just It's I mean, I think I want I want to explore so much the interview I think actually I'd like to do a thing where we go through the whole thing together and like Literally the comment because yes, it would be good because I'm actually going through it at the moment for the cut I'm going through the stuff sort of Isolating, you know, which are the most important points, but that whole thing of like Can't believe I'm getting away way with it is amazing. I want to just say one of the thing while I still have it on my mind, you know Something that I think a few people picked up on is that You know Richard When all of this first happened and he realized who Sam really was it was very he was in enormous pain And he was pretty messed up about it. And I think part of what he was messed up about was The feeling of like I have to fix this and it's interesting because there are parallels between Richard Nine some ways in the sense of like what I made of my mission that I was going to fix this thing take this guy down because he hurt my friends and Richard has been the same way in the sense that Richard will do whatever he can You know every single time I've said to Richard hey, I'd love to just get another interview with you Can we you know he just says yes like he just says yes to everything In terms of like you know anything we need for the film anything we need to help these women. He just always says yes because It's not like Richard knowingly um, you know knowingly was supporting Sam but I and I understand you know why why he thought that what Sam was doing was sick because when I look back now at We're neary stuff and I see oh shit. He said it there and he said it there and he said it there and he said it there And he said it there like the clues are everywhere You know, but you don't have the right Glasses so to speak to to see it so there's an interesting parallel in some ways Between Richard and I and in some ways uh with Sam because Sam is in some ways a representative of an archetype that I am that I have sort of Feel impassioned about exposing you know Absolutely, it's the expression that gets used a lot of hiding in plain sight and it really is that Sam Wagner uses that phrase himself hiding in plain sight He's talking to his audience in a general context But the truth is he's talking about himself And you'll see the dual meaning of the majority of his answers to me during my interview with him He'd of course argue he's talking generally about the subject But when you hear first hand from the victims You'll understand it's what he does to them Mark and I's discussion didn't end there and we'll return to it further into the series But you now understand the task I was faced with So it's time now for you to join me on my journey to face Sam Wagner In the next episode of the narcissist playbook Sam Wagner tells an audience how he selects his victims And I scan for vulnerabilities. I don't do it because I'm evil Well, I'm evil, but now why but I don't do it because I'm evil I do it because I am I hear a victim's account for the first time I went only to have therapy I wanted nothing else I couldn't imagine a human being could be as cruel And I dive into the digital evidence and Sam's own descriptions of his sadistic sexual abuse of patients I think it's probably the most disturbing thing that I've heard is I'll be your father Gently reaping you The storyteller narcissist playbook is written, produced and edited by me Ila Traquaire And it's the fourth in the storyteller series This is an independent production And I rely on you the listeners to help spread the word by showing your support It doesn't cost anything just a few clicks to like share subscribe and review And soon there'll be extra content available on my Patreon for the price of a cup of coffee Including analysis, evidence, regular videos and more Thank you for listening If you've been affected by narcissistic abuse that are links for support in the show notes You This is Jana Kramer from Wine Down with Jana Kramer I had this moment the other day where I thought why am I waiting for my next vacation to enjoy life I don't need a week off just a day to rest and recharge would be amazing And so I went to ResortPass.com There are hundreds of hotel resort pools, spas and private beaches That you can be enjoying today without spending the night I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in spa Nashville And I'm like wow, why am I just learning about resort pass? I may have only been 15 minutes from home But it felt like a whole different world I found myself settled into a cabana just smiling Umbrella drink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed Luxury Resort day pass has started just $25 It's a great deal Go to ResortPass.com/jana and use my code Jana to get $20 off when you spend $100 That's code Jana at ResortPass.com/jana Andy and Anna here from your new favorite podcast No such thing as a fish Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast That stuff's fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis You got any good facts, Andy? Wow. What about this one? When a Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels warning them to be aware of George Bush's dogs. So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish.