Ep. 2: “See What You Made Me Do”

Don't you just love those days when you're sitting alone, maybe reading or listening to a podcast, and not talking to anyone? According to Kiran Desai, author of "The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny," sometimes solitude can be a gift. - There was nothing more beautiful than being alone, watching the snow fall slowly outside, starting to write myself. So it was kind of a heaven, really. - Next time you're settling in for some quality alone time, head to bookends with Mateo Roach to hear that conversation, available now wherever you get your podcasts. - This is a CBC podcast. - Hi, before we begin, I just wanna let you know that this episode contains descriptions of intimate partner violence. If you're experiencing intimate partner violence, or if you have a loved one who is, you can find information on where to turn for help at cbc.ca/WTPresources. Please take care. I have this picture. It sits in a slim brown velvet photo album, which I almost never open. It's from the day I eloped. I'm 23 years old. I've got a pixie haircut, and I'm holding a bouquet of yellow roses at my side. My flowing white chiffon dress has been caught by the wind, and is billowing around my new husband, Pat, who holds me close. We're smiling, not just because we're happy, but because we think we're so clever. We've just climbed a fence to stand in a cow pasture, next to one of those big signs you see on the outskirts of small towns. This one says, "Welcome to Paradise." It's the perfect photo op, and we're the perfect couple. Looking at that photo, I remember the thrill of that day, the promise of what lay ahead of us. I can still feel a little bit of what it was like to be that giddy bride, to be that happy. And then I stop and stare at my younger self. And I think, "Oh, honey, you have no idea." I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, and this is "Welcome to Paradise." For years, I couldn't even look at that picture. But I couldn't get rid of it either. I still find it hard to look at that smiling bride. I've been talking this through with my therapist, Farzana. I'm trying to talk about how this happened, but I'm finding it really hard to go back to that 23-year-old and remember how she might've felt and to confront that, I think has been really difficult in writing this podcast. I just find some of it excruciating, you know? And I just-- - Excruciating in what way? - That person who was me then was so insecure on so many levels. I didn't have a lot of experience with men, and so most women my age were far more sophisticated than me. I think that was also part of my shame that I was, you know? - Other people know more than me. - Yeah, and I was in a rush to love and to fall in love. But I don't really want to admit to that, about that 23-year-old, she's still with me, you know? When I look back, the details of the abuse I experienced are crystal clear. They crowd out any of the happy memories, any of the reasons that young bride would have to be smiling. - That would be a good thing to ask her. Does she not want to remember the good stuff? - Like, I don't know, like, maybe the good stuff that I thought was good stuff never was. When I had the benefit of hindsight, I never thought there was anything good about it. There had to be something, I wouldn't have said, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna well open the guy "who's gonna beat the shit out of me." Like, I wouldn't have done that. So I had to, I had this sense of promise, I had this sense of excitement, but beyond that, I don't know what I had. - I've decided to go to the people I was closest with back then, to mine their memories of me at that age. My friends Sue and Vance. - We're gonna roast these babies. - Okay, how long do you roast 'em? - Two, we're gonna roast 'em for 20 minutes. (laughs) - Sort of. Sort of. - You know those friends, the ones you can pick up a conversation with, as if you saw them yesterday, even though it's been years? - I think 20 minutes at 4.50. - For me, that's Sue and Vance. - I was not pretending you know how to cook. - 3.75. (laughs) - They lived next door when Pat and I first moved into an apartment in Halifax before he and I were married. The four of us hung out all the time. - A question that I have for you is, how did they all begin with the two of you? - I met 'em at work, I met 'em at CKC. Thought he was interesting and fun. I mean, he was, he'd been in Nelson and he moved home. - When Pat and I first met, I thought he was impossibly handsome, tall and lean with powerful arms. Arms that looked like they could infold me, protect me. He had just moved back home to the East Coast after a hitchhiking trip out west. He had all these adventure stories, with odd people he'd met, like escaping a driver who tried to rob him. Everything he did impressed me, even when it probably shouldn't have. - I remember after he had an Irish center and he would say, oh, I was out running the dog at Melmerby Beach and I thought, wow, that's a lot, you must be a good runner. Then I realized he'd let the dog out and he drove the car along the road. And we were friends. And I think just over time, I fell for him. - And was it a mutual falling for each other? Did he pursue you or was it a one-sided attraction? - You know, I was kind of stunted at age when I met him, to be honest, I hadn't dated a lot. So I liked him and I kind of started falling for him and we stayed friends. - Stunted is probably too strong of a word, but there really was so much I didn't know. Growing up, my world was pretty small. I was raised Catholic with protective Italian parents in a small city, Windsor, Ontario, on the U.S. border with Detroit. I had friends, I had lots of cousins around me, but I still always felt a little bit detached. I spent a lot of time in my own head. I was the kid huddled in her room, reading, writing poetry. I was also pretty single-minded. I went to my local university, cramming four years into three, just so I could get out into the world. But it was a world I wasn't entirely ready for. At my first radio job where I met Pat, I couldn't use my own name on air. It was deemed too Italian by my boss. And so I called myself Terry, Terry Tremonti. I'd never thought about how much my identity was tied to my name before, but changing it somehow messed with my sense of self. I took it back for my next job, but then I had bigger problems. I had a boss who basically, long story, but basically told me if I didn't sleep with him, he'd fire me. - Oh, for God's sake. - And I remember 'cause he had taken me to a bar for a drink and I thought, oh, I've arrived. I'm having a drink with my boss in a bar. No clue, right? After working for a bit at that first radio station, I moved to another province for what I thought would be a better job. The boss there told me I was terrible and that he'd help me improve, but he'd need something in return. I called Pat in a panic and he convinced me to move back east. He told me about a job in Fredrickton, not far from him. And that was fun. Crazy long work hours and lots of play. Pat would visit, we'd party into the night every night at a trendy bar called the Cosmo Club, all dark lighting and late '70s dance music. I always felt so alive around Pat. For the first time, I felt like I belonged. Our relationship was still platonic, but I was definitely getting attached. And so when he got a TV job in Halifax and suggested I go with him, I was happy to. Right away, I landed an even better job too. And that's when we moved into an apartment next door to Sue and Vance. - I could see that his personality was such that he was certainly not a conventional or kind of straight arrow live your life on the straight and narrow. I mean, there was some impulsiveness. - I loved that spontaneity, like why not? And he was that kind of person and I was really taken with that. Like I didn't have that spontaneity in my life, right? - Is that what attracted you to him? - Probably. Probably. Our life together was ambiguous. At the time, I felt like we were this cool couple and a lot of ways maybe we were. I was getting up at 4 a.m. for morning radio. He was doing late night TV news. In between, we were suddenly out in the middle of a lake fishing or buying a motorcycle or jumping in the car on a whim to go camping. So Pat was fun. But Pat was moody. He could be quiet and hard to read. And sometimes he'd take off into the night. When I'd ask where he'd been, he wouldn't tell me. We were sharing a bed, but our sex life was ambiguous too. We weren't actually having sex. He told me he wanted to wait. And I was thinking, why? I knew he'd had partners before. I'd never really had a boyfriend. And I was mortified that I was still a virgin. I felt rejected and didn't know what to do. But I kept it all to myself and I've always wondered if I'd actually talked about this to someone, my mom, Sue, would any of what followed have ever happened? - Hi, I'm Nam Kiwanuka, host of "Mistreated," a new podcast from TVO Today about women's health. Historically, women's health has been under-researched and underfunded. Women's pain has become normalized and it all adds up to women at risk of being mistreated when it comes to their health. Mistreated will launch September 30th on TVO Podcasts and on YouTube. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out the show on the TVO Today YouTube channel. I hope you'll listen. Let's just ask something of the 23-year-old. So there was this interesting match that was coming your way. Did it seem like a good prospect? A good plan, a good future? - It did. Yeah, it did. - So she made a good decision based on the information she had? - She did. - Yeah. She saw a good-looking person, somebody who had a lot in common with her? - Yeah, or at least, you know, who fit into my almost like a fantasy or my belief of what I thought I wanted for myself. I don't know, maybe I always wanted a big life, but he fit something. It seemed like I could go forward in the world with him. - Yeah. - I could have a partner and I could have children and I could go out in the world because he would come out in the world with me. - Everything was a spontaneous adventure with Pat. Anything was possible. One evening, as we sat around after dinner, he suggested we elope. We hadn't actually talked about marriage before and I wasn't one of those girls who'd spent my childhood fantasizing about a wedding. I was so taken with him, I thought, fantastic, let's do it. Pat arranged everything. I did nothing except buy a dress a few days before. And on the day, we headed down the highway early toward the Annapolis Valley, tag-teaming the few friends we'd asked to join us as witnesses. At one point, as we passed their car waving, I put a paper bag on my head so they couldn't see the bride. The whole day felt like a lark. We exchanged skinny gold rings and a judge's backyard and instead of promising to love, honor, and obey, which was normal back then, we said we'd love, honor, and humor. Keeping it a secret from our families was Pat's idea. I thought it was hopelessly romantic. - I thought it was quite crazy myself. - Pat's dance again. - Because I thought we were starting to build a relationship and I thought at least we would have been given the heads up at some point, but anyway. I thought it was a bit reckless. - It was just a very different style to what we were used to with our relationship and people we knew at that time. But we were all kind of finding our space at that point. - But at least you had the class to get married in paradise. - Well, yeah, welcome to paradise. - I think we have a picture of that somewhere. - Yeah, there is a picture in front of the sign. - Yeah. - Yeah, that picture. That weekend carried a lot of significance. It was Thanksgiving, 1980, and it was also my parents' wedding anniversary. And so even though I'd promised Pat I'd keep it a secret, I called my mom a few days before. I wanted her blessing. She was surprised. Knowing her, she probably wanted to talk me out of it. But knowing me then, she knew better than to try. - He was really mad at me that I told my mom. It was supposed to be a big secret. We agreed it would be a big secret. Did you agree? - That's the question. I got really defensive about it. Like, no, I'm sorry, I'm telling my mom. - As any woman. - I didn't back down on that at all, no. And of course, I didn't see it as a bigger control issue at the time. (gentle music) - I don't want to cut too much of this off. I can always make it shorter, but I can't make it longer. - Whatever. - That's my dad, stealing himself for one of my haircuts. - I saw some pictures of you from when you were younger. It was like your hair stood straight up. - What's the style? - Yeah, no, no, it was like this. - My mom is no longer alive, but my dad is in his late 90s. All my friends think he's amazing, and he is. Memory like a steel trap. He still makes furniture in his shop. And he has a full head of wavy silver hair, which is slowly piling up on the floor. - When you first saw me, what did you think? - Oh, you were a nice little baby girl. - Did you have any special hopes for me? - Well, sure, I hope you have the best life in the world. - When I was growing up, did you worry that you would have to protect me from getting hurt by somebody? - No, because it was a different time on the money. It was a different time. We were not afraid of silly things like that. You couldn't leave your doors open. Nobody, very few people locked the doors. I don't think we were afraid of getting hurt. We were afraid of anything. - Did you know about anybody when I was growing up, who was like, who was beating their wife? - No, I didn't know anybody, no, no. - Nobody understood? - I know of people that didn't get along, but I never heard of anybody. Here is their wife, so beating their wife, never did. - If my mom was still alive, that's a question I'd ask her. When I was younger, she and I clashed a lot, but we were still close. We talked about everything, or almost everything. One of the things I never asked her and really wish I had now was what she made of my marriage. But I think at the time, I didn't want to know. Or maybe was afraid to know what she thought. - When you first met Pat, what did you think of him? - He was a friendly guy. I thought he was a nice guy. - Well, on many levels, he was a very nice guy. When you met him, he was a nice guy. - We had a nice little reception down in the basement here. - You didn't meet him before then? - No, he just came to marry you. - Like in the movies. - A few months after our wedding, Pat and I visited my parents. We had another ceremony in their living room. The priest came and sacramentalized our marriage, making it official in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Afterwards, my parents had a little reception for close relatives. I was so excited about introducing Pat to my family that I was oblivious to what they saw. - The ceremony at home was you were already married, okay? And Pat apparently went to confession. So the priest said to your mom, I shouldn't marry you, but you're already married. So I performed the ceremony. - Why? Because Pat went to confession and told him something? - Maybe, maybe. - And because of what he knew, he wouldn't have married us. - No, he said he wouldn't marry you. He wouldn't, maybe the priest asked him questions, you know, they, they pried into people's privacy too. But he said if he wouldn't let me marry, he would have refused it. - You never told me that ever. - Well, I didn't tell because on the Maria, we figured if we tell you anything, we are going to read the situation because, you know, we could tell there was something wrong. - I am stunned hearing this. What did Pat say at confession? Why didn't the priest think we ought to be married? I'd entered my marriage full of big hopes for my future. But my parents sensed something was off before the beatings even started. - We came in visit you and you were there with Pat. And that night when we came home, your mother told me something is not working. She saw there was no nothing between you and Pat. She said there is something not working properly. To me, I didn't notice it, but she did. - To hear my dad tell me this all these years later makes me cringe. - It makes me feel so naive, so stupid. Like what, what didn't I see? - A part of you is really judging yourself for this. Like a part of you probably knows this is how it happens. You know, it's incremental, like you know all the theory, but a part of you is telling yourself that you are stupid. - I didn't see this stuff. I didn't see what other people saw. - And you're expecting yourself to have had that ability. - It's been hard for me to let that 23 year old off the hook. I keep wanting to confront her to say, what were you thinking? As if there were red flags waving all around me, warning me of the violence up ahead, if only. - So let's, let's show a little compassion to the 23 year old. This, this could have been a situation where a 23 year old, you had a bunch of insecurities, you saw some promise, and you had a fantastic great match and a great relationship forever more. It could have gone that way, right? - Yeah, I think it could have if it was a different person. But if not, if it was a different me, if it was a different him. - In the weeks after coming home from our second ceremony, there were stretches when Pat would completely withdraw. He wouldn't talk to me, wouldn't include me in his plans. I felt ignored, pushed aside suddenly. I didn't understand. And one day, late in the afternoon on a Friday, I tried to make it better. I remember the first time that he turned on me. He had been very quiet. He was kind of in his own space. And I really sensed that something was wrong. And I wanted him to talk to me. And he just burst. And he takes a hot pot of coffee and he throws it at me. And I turn and I feel the coffee hit my back and my back is all wet. And now he's hitting me with his fists and he's saying something to me. I don't know what he's saying, but he's hitting me with his fists and he's hitting me and hitting me and I'm crunched over. And I'm thinking, it's almost like slow motion now. And I'm thinking like, what's happening? No one's ever done this to me. And I don't understand what he's doing to me. And I think it hurts, but it's not about that it hurts. It's that it's just such an affront and I don't know why and I don't move. And he just keeps hitting me and then he stops. I go into the bathroom and I close the door and I look at my back. And my back was already bruised. And I thought, wow, I bruise so easily. I don't bruise easily. I had, you know, but really hurt that day. Yeah, yeah, but I had never seen that. And I remember it scared me. Even though I understood that his hitting me was wrong. And that I was being hurt by the force of his fists. I didn't understand at the time that he was inflicting a more lasting injury. He then told me, not right away, probably, I think maybe a few hours later, that I had like, see what you made me do. Like, literally see what you made me do. You drove me to this. Like, so it was, it was about like, look what I did. I misbehaved. And I believed him. And right there, I bent to the power of his words. Look what I made him do. Look what I made him do. [Music] On the next episode of Welcome to Paradise. I had fingerprints around my neck, but I had a job interview at CBC coming up. And mom had bought me a suit, a white suit with blue flecks in it. And I wore that suit for my interview. And I, it had a blouse with it. It had a navy blue blouse and it had a high collar. I put it on and I looked every which way in the mirror. So it covered the mouth. Yeah, you couldn't see anything. You couldn't see anything. Did he left marks on your neck? Yeah. Could he strangle you right there and then? He could have, yeah. If you or someone you know is living with intimate partner violence, you're not alone. There are people who can help. For more information, visit cbc.ca/wtpresources. Welcome to Paradise is written and produced by me, Anna Maria Tramonte. Sarah Melton is our associate producer. Chris Oak is our story editor. Sound design and additional story editing by Mira Bertwin Tonic. SK Robert is our coordinating producer. Our senior producer is Damon Fairless. And the director of CBC podcasts is Arif Narani. Special thanks to Farzana Doctor. If you'd like to reach me directly, go to my website, AnnaMariaTramonte.com. You can follow Welcome to Paradise on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts. And if you like the show, please help others find it by leaving us a review on Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.