Ep 199 - How to pack on muscle without getting fat

Hey guys, welcome back for another episode of Barbos and Banta, Jason and Ben in the house. So today we talked about how to get, how to build muscle with our getting soft. The strategy is that we're deploying right now with our clients. The strategy is we're deploying with ourselves. We gave it insights, but it's on everything you need to consider on what to track, how to deploy it and things to expect for your results. If you're new to the pod, welcome. There's a lot of other episodes you guys can dive into after this. By the end of the episode, you're going to love it. So follow the platform, like the podcast, maybe send it to someone who loves a dirty bulk, see if you can change them, change their strategy. If you're a repeat listener and you haven't shown that support yet, like the episode, comment, let us know what you think, and then follow us on whatever platform that you guys are tuning in on. It really helps us get the message out to other people just like yourself. For coaching, enquiries, head to the website, strength, muscle gain, performance, maybe combination of those three simple, repeatable, effective systems to help you guys get results from week one. So head to the website, get some information, find us in the dams on insta, if you want, we can have a chat and just see if we're the right fit and then take things from there. Alrighty, let's get to the episode. So I've got a question. Do you know how to spot an egg that's off? Do you know how to think it's syncs? It's bad. Yeah, is it sync? Pretty sure. So I thought it was float because I think of like floating like it gets the air pocket in there and then it goes to the top. But that's the thing, yeah. Like one of the two, yeah. But you know, you got to put in water and it's got to do the thing. Did you know that, Tim? A right neck will float. Yeah, so I'm glad because I ate the one that's sun-class night. So yeah, I thought so. Fresh will fall to the bottom. Yeah, because it'll go bubble. Yeah, it goes upright. It'll eat soon. Yeah. And if it floats on the top, because the floating is, there's an air pocket that's gotten into the egg and it's soiled it. So that's why it can go to the top. Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought that like everybody knew that. Like, you know, it's just one of those things like you just, yeah, I don't know. Like, I know it's fake, but it's like, don't eat. I don't swim my 30 minutes after eating. I just got it rampant down. Yeah, so last night we, um, I couldn't be bothered cooking dinner. And I was like, we're just going to have ramen. And I like to put an egg in the ramen at the end, like with the noodles and yeah, um, swizz it around and give it a swizz a roof. And, um, I put them in the, in the, in the bowl and I said, oh, this is how you check the eggs. And Steph was like, what? And I was like, yeah, this is how you identify if you can eat the egg or not. And she's like, I didn't know that. And I was like, okay. And then I said, well, maybe, um, because we were poor, nothing went to waste. Nothing went to waste. I said, it's probably just, yeah, nothing went to waste. It's like, oh, these are like a month over due. Let's see if we can still eat them. Hey, it says, uh, best before not used by. Yeah, that's true. Let's just see how it goes. Yeah, I'm a, oh, yeah. I really stretched the best before. I'm like, yeah, who gets to decide best before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My digestive system does. Yeah. I've actually been really good lately with, um, usually I'll get sick, like maybe once a month from like eating something I shouldn't. I've been sick from other shit. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I just got sick from fucking getting the plague. Like, whatever that was. Yeah. Fuck. Now I still feel like my energy levels, like, um, I'm probably like 80, 95% I'd say, like going back to the gym. I was like last week, I was weak as this week. I'm like, bit stronger, but I'm still not like pre sickness. Yeah. I feel like I'm still coming back to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what the fuck did we have? But someone said it would be that RSV, at RSV thing, I have an RSV shot though from, I shouldn't get it because I got it. You can't. Yeah. You need to have RSV around babies. Yeah. They're shot. So I shouldn't get it. Yeah. Right. Well, then we didn't get that because they're not, I think I've had that shot too. You would have to be around. Yeah. Yeah. So you go. Oh, well, there you go. It's just real dangerous. Maybe we've got super RSV and it just penetrated through the maybe maybe the vaccine wasn't good. Yeah. I'll do it in the sick. Well, don't they say that like, you know, like maybe there's like 400 strains of it. You only get one. Is that the same as the flu? I don't know. So it's barter client. I got wiped this week. It was the same. Just like it felt like COVID, but it's not. Yeah. I've had a few of my clients just dropping like five. Yeah. Yeah. I just think like maybe you talk to Sydney and then it went to yeah, sure. Maybe someone gave it to me in Sydney and just decided to share the love everywhere. Yeah, potentially. Airport's man. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. But I'm back. So feeling good. I've got a full week of training under my belt. Yeah. Good. Yeah. What are the price today? 105 pounds. So what's that like 52 kilos? 10 reps. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I'm just joking. Come on. More for the list of benched. I mean, I'll benched 100 pounds. I'm sitting in your car this morning. I'll benched 100 when I was like 100 kilos and I was like 19. And you're like, "Jace is only pressing 50 kilos." Oh, how good. I should have gave, they would have been people out there. They would have felt, you know, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. They would add a perp in this step. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some 60 kilos. Do you ever see, like, I outbends Jason? Do you see like other people in the gym, like, sussing out what you lift, like when they're training? Not where I am. Oh, really? Yeah. It happens a lot where we are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'll get like, yeah. They'll, you're sitting there and they'll just be like, little side eye. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. There's a cup. There's probably a couple of dudes that are like, you can tell they've got a bit of competitiveness and they're trained. I'll fucking do it. I'll fucking do it. Yeah. I need it, bro. Like, everything's personal. I'll make you, like, I'll pretend you said something to me, bro. Okay. I'll need it. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever to get. Body bits is mostly just the happy family. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't tell you about my altercation with this guy at the gym. Another one. No, no. No, no, being good. No, no, no, but this was a, this was a, this was a, this was a, this was my fault, bro. This was my fault. Again. It's never my fault. So we're, me and Nick are training and we go to this, go to this seat of bro. This is the end. Shout out to Nick, by the way. It looks fucking great. Yeah. So we're three weeks out. And bro's like, yeah, glutes are like fucking walnuts. I'm seeing him tomorrow. Actually, I'm really excited. Yeah. Shout out to him. So we're, yeah, we were training and there's good, no. So this dude had a tissue box on the floor and he's, when he was training and I said to Nick, I might get the fuck away from him. We'll go on the other side. So we walk over to this seat of bro. This dude comes beaming over man. There's nothing there. Like it's empty. And he's like just aggressively like, don't you think you guys can use something else? Or I'm using that, but I just like spat out all these words. And I was like, I just looked at Nick and I go, that was a really aggressive bro, but no problems. And then Nick was like, yeah, man. And then he's like, and then the guy was like, like, just started chewing words and he, what do you mean? It's a grocery store. I'll fuck off your dickhead. And then that was it, bro. I was like, I was like, what did you, what did you just say? Would you say to me? And then I'm, then he goes, he goes, oh, you think you can steal people's equipment because he got big muscles. Did you say thank you? No, like I didn't in my head. In my head, I was like, oh, fuck you. So he's like, and on my bro, I'll go, I'll go, bro, just fucking like learn how to speak to people. I said, we have to do say I'm going between here and here. And if you boys could take a, like use another machine, it'd be fine. I go, but you didn't do that. And then he said something. And like that's when I was like, we'll get into that point where I was hitting the limo. I'm going to cave your face and he keeps talking about this. So then he goes to me, oh, he goes, oh, he points to the ring and he goes, oh, why don't we get in there? And I just, I just erupted into laughter. I was like, are you fucking kidding me, man? I was like, really? You know, and then I was like, Nick's like, Nick, Nick's like very asleep. Yeah. So we walked back, you know, whatever. And so he's, he's moving around the gym and like, I'll just give him enough of just like his own face because I was like, bro, I'm not done with this yet. And then he went and spoke to him made a mind and he must have told him what happened. And he's mates like, bro, what the fuck? Like he's serious? Because he, like, so I'm working out. And he comes over to me while I'm doing the machine, bro. And he goes, are we done here? The sweet said like this is we done here. And I was like, Nick goes, bro, just fuck off and leave a slide. And then asked, and like he said it again. And I go, dude, are you looking to get your fucking ass kicked? Because I said, you're going the right way about it. I was like, I don't know. I was like, just fucking get the fuck away from us, bro. Like what are you doing? And then he's like, nah, this was just one big misunderstanding. I'm still using the machine, bro. And he sticks his hand out like this. And like, fuck, he's like a piece of free. And like he was it like, I takes a lot to come up and put your hand out after you make mistakes. So I was like, sweet man. There was a look, you know that little in his voice. So I was like, okay, you mean this like sincerely? Yeah. And I said, do my go look, it takes a lot to come over and, you know, bury the hatchet. It's all good. Yeah. You know, and then my mate comes over. He's like, bro, what the fuck happened? I go, dude, he came over like a fucking bad out of hell when we went to sit down on the seat of row and started fucking barking at us. And I told him it was aggressive. And then he erupted at me for calling him aggressive. I said, he said he wasn't aggressive and called me a dickhead. So then I wanted to fucking smash him because he called me a dickhead. And then he's like, He goes, he's not normally like that. He's like, I think he's dealing with some shit. I'm like, I can't give a fuck what he's dealing with. I said, I can't. He's a fucking Jim, bro. Like, what is wrong with you? Start the place. Oh, man. Yeah. First time I've been in the gym like that in like six months, man. I just need to direct this anchor at something. Yeah. Or today you're it. Yeah. Yeah. Bad stuff. And then, yeah, we just laughed about it afterwards. It's like, man, I'm so tired. He's like, I don't have the energy for this. I said to him, OK. I'm really glad you're tired. Yeah. Yeah, because that would be much worse. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, because it was getting to that point where I was like, dude, stop talking to me like this. Like, you know, I can only take so much shit for so long. And then you're going to cop a headbutt. Yeah. So we're going back there tomorrow. [LAUGHTER] Oh, it's hard off the fucking hole. Yeah, I'm roasting already. Yeah. Dig the puff up. Well, we're just going to make heaps of noise on the marks. Yeah. Sorry about that. I'm just going to open this up. It is warm. Tim was going to turn the heater on. Did you turn the heater on, Tim? Goddamn. Yeah. All right. I'm doing that. I've got a single it on. Oh, fuck it. I'll take it off. Go on. Yeah. Go on. Yeah. Get massive. Yeah, I'm going to put my hat back on. Anyway, so yeah, we're going back there tomorrow. But Nick's-- I think we're two-- Wait, what's the date today? Two weeks out. We're two weeks out. Yeah. So two weeks out. So yeah, we're trying to get to under 80. And at the start, when someone has an ambition, I'm not going to crush it. But every check-in, I was just like, where's the muscle? Where's the fat? You got too much muscle. We can't-- Is it an actual weight class under 80? Yeah. You got under 80, under 90, under 100s. And then I think after that, it's like 110. And then you're just super heavy on your ship. It's a massive. And obviously, if you're close, you kind of want to go for it. Because you'd rather be the heaviest. You want to be 82 kilos. Correct. Yeah. Thanks, mate. I hope you never hear this. Sobs is 82 kilos. Sobs literally today. You're two weeks, you'll be fine. Yeah, but like carved up and shit. Like, you'll be like 83, 84. But yeah, about six to eight weeks ago, I think six weeks ago, I said, bro, I don't know if we're going to get there, man. Where's it going to go? Yeah. And I didn't really want to just send it to-- Absolutely. Yeah, that's it. It's like, it's hard earned, you know? So yeah, he's-- Not that he wasn't receptive. He was just like, fuck, man. I was really hoping. And I just said, these are the cards that we're playing, man. We should just bring the best look wherever you land your land. And we've got like a three week turnaround to nationals anyway. Yeah. So I'm like, who knows? Yeah, make it for nuts. Yeah, maybe-- Can you do that if you qualify in a-- Well, different. We-- Yeah, you just-- It's-- you just have to compete. So it doesn't really matter. Like, you can just sharpen anything. And then-- like, he could do bodybuilding one. And then, classic in the next-- Yeah, I agree. Sure. So anyway, we're just going to fuck around and find out. Yeah. Like, it just doesn't look like we're going to get there. Like, he's lean and-- He's just kind of stayed at 82 and his body's just changed. Yeah. You know? It's a place to be. Yeah, yeah. But I'm really excited to see the end result. Yeah, he looks awesome. Yeah, it's fun. It's been good. So it's been a good prep. It's been a really good prep. He's hard work, obviously. And it responds really well to things. But yeah, it just hasn't been any major hiccups. Yeah. Which has been nice. And for taking someone on so last minute, I was expecting it to be a little bit harder. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't have that-- I didn't have that time to figure him out. Yeah, it was just-- He was doing a protocol. I disagreed with it. And then I didn't want to-- Yeah. Sorry. It's not a disagreed with it. I was just like, I wouldn't run things this way. So rather than-- I think it was still good enough, though, do you want to me? Yeah. So I was like-- It took me like four weeks to get him to do what I wanted to do. Yeah. Like, exactly. Yeah. And then by that time-- like we still had heaps of time-- but I just had to keep doing what he was doing and just trust that everything was going to hum along nicely. And yeah, which has been good. So yeah. The fun time of the year is about to come. I've got Nick, Riley. Got an idea. Is Riley in an NBA? Yeah, Riley's doing an NBA. Yeah, cool. Yeah, he's showing us Adam, yeah. I think so. Yeah. Adam must be doing a show earlier as well. He's got two. Yeah, because the time lines don't add up when he says how many weeks out he is. I'm like, I hope I haven't got the time. That's true. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'm hoping that I'm on just a couple of weeks early. There are two weeks apart. Yeah, cool. Well, then Matt makes sense, because Riley's doing the NBA. And then we're going to go to Queens and I think-- Yeah, cool. Yeah. So Queens and Nathamite being Queens and both seasons, potentially. Yeah, so I'm off to go there twice. Oh, no. Yeah, Riley's killing it, man. So we're like seven kilos, I think, down. And then just had that first hint of super fatigue. Like crappy workouts, just dragging your feet around. So we deployed a refeed Monday Tuesday this week. And just like a sponge. Like, boy, just the feedback's great. And he was like, oh, I'm just glad we caught this early. But I'm like, say what we catch it, man. Like the system is the system-- So we talked about the other week, right? Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. That's just the data, do the change. Yeah, absolutely. Predicting it. Agreed. Yeah, so we call wear on track with that as well. So they're the two that are close. We've got Samira kind of 16 weeks out of the year. And then I've got a couple of little bats to start prepping about. They're a bit excited for Samira. Like the first comp being a weight loss journey. Yeah. And we didn't have any time to build any muscle. So now it's a good opportunity to-- Yeah, like it should look way different. See the fruits of like a build. And the only thing that's different now is because the starting weight for the prep was like 10 kilos less. It's just managing the expectations. Oh, of the rate of loss and starting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like, oh, it's not coming off the way. Did last time, and I'm like, yeah, but-- Because you have half of muscle. Yeah, you have even less body fat than the weight you started because now you have more muscle. So and I'm like, yeah, you can only come off so fast. If it comes off any quicker, you're probably going to lose that harder muscle. So we want to win that. Yeah, so that's going to be an interesting new chapter for her to just manage that. But it's business as usual. Like they kind of know the system and know what's expected on them. So yeah, it's been good. It's exciting. Yeah, then I've got like three for the end of the year, I think four maybe. I don't know. I can't remember. Yeah. I've got to go over my sheet. I think I have two. Yeah, cool. Do you know what feds are going to do? I will-- they'll both be bikinis, so I'll probably go to-- Maybe. Best-- the best nanny fed around. Yeah. Yeah. I say that wholeheartedly. I didn't get in kickbacks with that shit. Yeah. Like-- Yeah, you know what I mean? I don't work for them. I saw one of my girls-- Hands down the best, best fed. So she trades at my gym, but new-- kind of new to never had a coach before. So pictures and all of that are not the lighting's not great. Yeah. Hasn't really figured out posing. It's like, I think the diet is incredible. I think you look good. So you came into the gym to the week, and I was like-- Because we're doing this the STC shoot to be like, are you ready? Yeah. Do you have-- A, what it takes and being like the physique for it? And like-- Yeah, you got it. Get nice, man. It's cool. Get nice is just-- Like I train one of the boys at the gym. Yeah. And even like he sends me his checkered photos. I didn't team for three weeks, so I'm like, very fucking massive. Yeah. Like-- This doesn't project in the photos. Yeah. Like it just doesn't-- Like it's really hard sometimes to be like, are we making progress? So are we fucking changing? And then you see him in person, you're holy shit. So yeah, it's always good to get eyes if you can. If you can, it's what it's like. I'll prep people and literally met them for the first time on your show. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it can be done. Sandra was like that. Yeah. Yeah. Took that out off in the morning. I was like, you're fucking massive, dude. That's why I'm like, if I like what I see in a photo, I know they're going to be great and real. I've seen it so many times. So I phone just fucking numbs you. Yeah. And everywhere you upload, it doesn't matter. Like you can put it to HD, whatever. It still nukes the quality, which fucking infuriates me. Yeah. Or even the-- Like it's got a built-in filter that smooths everything out. So you can book that up. So you use the phone more. Like it's just-- Yeah. Did you see that the-- like, medit's getting taken to court about like the addictive mechanisms inside the apps and shit? Really? Yeah, I think you have to pay like $375 of some shit. That's nothing. Yeah, I know. I was like, it's like $30 fine. Yeah. It's like a part of the ticket. But I'm sure there's like some reform that's going to happen with it, which is probably the actual punishment. That'll be interesting. But yeah, apparently there's some legal thing going on where they're trying to regulate the addictive properties of the apps. But that should happen with everything, man. I don't know if you'd like downloaded like the Dimewap. Like that is so fucking annoying that, bro. Oh, the notifications are-- Oh, yeah. Oh, fuck. Oh, yeah, man. So I deleted Facebook off my phone every two days. Get a notification. Really? It's not on my phone anymore. How? I don't know. That's that shit. Yeah. That's that shit, bro. Yeah, because it was just like an all-mode notifications I was getting. Because I always had the red dot side open it and scroll. Yeah, it's like nothing. It's like someone posted in this group that you haven't opened for 10 years I see that you know when the people are at everyone and it's like it's just fine Oh, no, this is just like this group's doing stuff. Oh really? I just to bring you back to the app because you're not opening it so I was like I'll delete it and I'm still getting shit Facebook's looking news platform now Yeah, you know, yeah, what's your family doing and it tells you what the world. I don't even get my family Yeah, what's the world makes me angry? I am use it for family because like my Instagram's Yeah, yeah, just like he doesn't show me my family. I mean, I was just fucking yeah, politics usually. Yeah, maybe it's just worked out Hey, why you use maybe just don't talk to your family. Let's be really good chance. It's a good chance. That's the cross Oh I don't know why I found that so funny anyway So I wanted to talk about If I wanted to add some size in a build and not get fat how I would do it because I've I have had a couple of people putting the mass on now and Not pushing too far as being the goal like you know not getting too soft Has been the main outcome and over me. I'm about to you know start pushing the size again because my goals have changed and Like the I still want to like I don't want to get anything like I did last year They just end even though it's funny. It was still like leaner than the year before but I'm still like just the standard is different So I wanted to talk about How we would deploy that and if you were someone who like Even I did a consult with someone during the week and they were like had a poor experience with a online coach previously and they were like, oh, you know, they just I just got fat You know, like I just got too soft And now I have huge apprehensions around committing to something and yeah, I was like well, I'm never gonna do that too That's not the outcome that let's not the goal So this is how we would do it, you know, and they obviously were boarding on that so When we talk about uh I think To mitigate body fat gain To you have to think about time is the greatest lever for progress. Yeah Right because you can only Realistically put on So much muscle in a time frame. Yeah, especially if you're natural like you just don't have the capacity to add size rapidly So if you are gonna set a eight week ten week window And then you're gonna chase a certain amount of gain every week you just can't guarantee that that's Yeah quality wait and when I mean quality wait like the distribution of that weight is more to muscle than fat. Yeah, so If we know that time and effort obviously in the gym like oh doing all the right things We know time is the greatest lever Then we go all right. Well I need to keep this person in This zone will call it For as long as we can yeah, and that is going to be the biggest contributor This is providing they're doing all of the things to adding the size without getting fat When has there been a time where You've gotten that wrong and have you got it right yet in terms of myself. Yeah Hmm, I've got it really fucking wrong Early days. Yeah, so one of the questions I had was like Before we go into the protocol is like do you feel even in your own experience Those like hard bulks will call and like those dirty ones, you know where we were fucking eaten Thousand calorie shakes post training and stuff. Yeah, like do you think there was any there's any validity to that Because it like that would that would be the time where you think you got it wrong right? Yeah, that's what I was thinking We'll just chase and wait it didn't even matter what we were doing. Yeah, just like if weight goes up fucking that Err yeah, yeah Yeah Was there any validity to it like the argument is if you're getting fat You're maximizing the amount of muscle you're building at that time until you get to a point where you've Created a hormonal environment that yeah, that's no longer good Yeah, I just think so do you sustain the hormonal environment for longer And maybe miss so say like Say you could be eating a little bit more food and it would give you a 10% better outcome. Yeah But there's a risk of you Trying to achieve that little bit more food means that you're also gaining more body fat So you're bulk and only be sustained for eight to 12 weeks instead of 16 to 26 weeks The net muscle gained over that time because you have to diet more frequently in the likelihood if you're a natty of Dying down muscle mass as well Like The net over the six-month approach is going to be better. You'll feel better. You'll train better. Yeah Your motivation for training and all of that's probably going to be better You don't feel and look like a slub Yeah, the only the only part that was kind of fun was eating heaps just eating heaps put an ice cream in shakes post work Everything else was kind of fucking not like right. Yeah, yeah, I When you're actually sizable eating enough isn't fun anyway. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Like I it comes back for me to the initials thing that I said like you can only put on so much quality size and It doesn't like you eat a 200 calorie Surpasses just say for example. Yeah, and you're putting on most likely your maximum muscular potential Based on eugenetics and your protocol so eating 300 to 500 calories or to 600 calories like the extra like that serving Very little purpose. Yeah outside of yeah, just having fun eating heaps and yeah getting soft. Yeah, so I still would say having done both Strategies because even like the last three months you could say like I've just been eating that mate. It's like which you just over No, and it's like you can still add some side add some good sides. I've got the photos to prove it. Yeah You just don't the thing I think people struggle with is You can't prove that your gaining size When the rate of gain is so slow the only way you could is in a clinical setting which you would never be able to put yourself So you would you kind of get a bit deflated from a subjective thing. It's like I hate using this example, but you know, unlike you start using shit You want to feel that it works. Yeah. Yeah, it's the same. It's like Then if you don't feel it, it's like oh, this is shit. No good. It's no good It's not working and then six months later you're like oh fuck maybe all this work 60 weeks later you're like okay, there's a lot of work Yeah, it's kind of like using peptides like you don't feel anything. Yeah, they just do the thing like they just happen You know and all of a sudden like you're like oh my skin feels better or my hair looks good or my or I'm fucking five kilos lighter or whatever it is right So I get that there's a degree of feel that people want to gauge their progress on but then I'm also like You are only using that like you're that person that only uses the scale and only uses you know how you fill in out your t-shirts like you're not using other Like metrics that make more sense. I feel like this is where I guess it's like the recump model Made it common with like if weight goes up you added muscle Which yeah is incomplete like yeah, it's a very it's like you know blind it There's a lot of contentious things to discuss, but it's still a little bit true If you're running your program for a long enough time Etc. And you lift more weight or do more reps like absolutely the likelihood that you've built muscle is very high Yeah, especially I would say where that models great is if you're already an experienced lifter Agreed because you're not gonna have the yeah you and I aren't gonna get these like neuromuscular adaptations like First three weeks over 16 weeks. Yeah, so then for you and I like every gram. We of weight we add to the bar Yeah, you could say would be meaningfully contributed to yeah sure bit of skill yeah, but and I would say like even like tying this back into a strength setting too It's almost like just thinking about it applying it to your accessories not your main lifts Because like skill and your programming should be Allowing you to increase what load on the barbell when you squat bachelor lift anyway But what is your split squat done? What is your like dumbbell press done? That's probably gonna be the determining factor because like I've done the dirty bulk from a powerlifting standpoint. Yeah, it's how to weight class to get to So this guy I just want to be at the top of the weight class. Okay, I'll wait moves wait maybe if a little bit like it It actually kind of does yeah does absolutely to a degree. So I think the accessories are probably From a building muscle standpoint more informative than the prime lifts for a strength athlete. Yep And that's something to consider, but yeah, I like looking back at all those times Some of it was okay. Do you think there's more scope if you're Notty that you would allow more fat gain. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's just the point where You you're taking it too far. - Yeah. - So how do you determine what that is? - I would aesthetically and subjectively, energy levels, gym performance, not even just like weight going up or like rest period times. Like if they're just, rest period times is gradually going up and up and up and up. - Yeah. - And it's like the weight staying the same. It's like bro, you're getting unfitter. - Yeah. (laughing) - Getting less good. (laughing) - Digestion, if you sleep all the time, you're not going to explode at that type of stuff. I would say, you're not going to experience all those things together. Some people may, and then you've got to go, well, where this level of body fat, we're going to have to die at that off at some point. - Yeah. - So I would say for some people, we would have the discussion. - Yeah. - We're like, hey, like do you think it's worth just pulling three or four kilos to allow us to keep going? Like Jackson's a perfect example of that. Like the last ever since comp, like he's looked great all the time. And it's because we were real big before that comp too. - Yeah, and that was me trying to just, you know, size, size, size. And it was also a little bit of a timeline thing. It was like, I can't pull him, I can't pull the weight down when we're about to pull the weight down for six months. - Yeah. - You know, we're going to get to a point where, you know, we're going to be in this fucking limbo land. So I was like, you have to fuck it. Like, just send it. - Yeah. - And then him and I had that discussion. I'm like, oh, you'll never look like that ever again. - Yeah. - So this time around, what did you do different? - Just shorter, not shorter, less aggressive surplus, more cardio, more daily movement. And the distribution of his calories were more skewed towards the training days than the non-training days. - Yeah. - So that would, and then every 16 weeks, we do like four weeks, just super aggressive, 2400 calories, like increase, maybe double his cardio, which is about two, 15 minute sessions, turn into two 30s. And his steps go 10,000 for a couple weeks, like a month. And yeah, you just tighten things up and kick up. - Yeah. - So you don't really, you might add eight kilos, you might lose three in the mini cut, see five kilos up, then you're starting this next build, five kilos up, then you add another eight kilos, cut three. So it's like, that's how you add 10 kilos in here. - Yeah. - You know? - Okay, there's the same. And she added like four kilos this build, which like, I know when you think of it, when you look at it, like it's like, oh, four kilos in that much, it's like, when you fucking 50 kilos it is. - Yeah, fucking it. - You know what I mean? And to add that in an 18 week time line, and still look great now. So the hard thing with that is like, so even just this question of like, how do you make that decision? I could keep going with cattle. - Yeah. - But I'm just like, we're gonna do the same thing at some point. - Yeah. - Like it, you know what I mean? Like the end destination's the same. Like we're gonna have a bigger muscular physique. I'm just like, why would I run the risk of, you know, maybe not utilizing this next four weeks that I could extend it, as well as if I just pulled back and then we went on the other side of that. In 12 weeks time, I'm confident I made the right decision. - Yeah. - You know, because I can almost guarantee that we won't hit any roadblocks if I pull, if I deploy the mini cart in a week and a half time. - Yeah. - Where if I push out a month, what about in two and a half weeks time, she's like, "Jay, it's like, "Yeah, this is, I don't feel great." The sessions are shit, you know, whatever. I'm like, "Ah, should have done it." You know, it's like the client that says, let's go more aggressive in the cart, and you're like, "Let's wait a week." And then you wait a week and nothing happened. - Yeah. - You're like, "Fuck, should have pushed." - You should have haven't it, yeah. - Yeah, so it's, if you have a, and again, it goes down to that same thing we spoke about with Riley, if you have a timeline and you have levers that you're working with to drive the adaptation with the specificity of the program, the goal, you can decide with the lifter. - Yeah, no. - And there's gonna be people I can't decide with. I'll just tell them, but I train a lot of coaches. - Yeah. - So do you. - It's a bit collaborative in a build, you know, 'cause it's way different to the emotions don't run wild and, you know, they're just way more sensible. When they're hungry, it's like, I can't pull it. - I'll do it. - Yeah, I don't believe you. You're just telling me everything you wanna tell me so you get a refit. - Do you wanna do a case study quickly? - Yeah. - You've got a lot. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's still it, man. - So we've got, we'll have, by my quick math thing, I had 30 weeks from STC shoot. We've come from 93 currently mid 85s. So that's eight kilos. - Yep. - I'm as lean probably now as the last shoot, maybe a couple kilos off. - Yep. - But my legs are smaller, just annoying. (laughing) So I've got 30 weeks, legs, probably chest type priority. Wanna be leaner than I was last time, bigger than I was last time. - Yeah. - Size is probably looking fuller. Is probably the main focus for this shoot. - Yep. - And just the aesthetics of what I wanna do, like I wanna have that like gritty dad vibe. - Yep. - Not village people. - Skinny dude vibe. - It could go, it could look, it could turn into a village people twink, but we'll see what happens. - That's why I wanna look big. - I'm going with a mustache. (laughing) - No, I'm in, I'm in here for it. (laughing) So what are your, what are the options? - Yeah, so the options I would say is deploying a surplus that's not as high as you would think you need. Because yeah, you need, I don't know, I would say, maybe 300 calories max. - Yep. - And then I would use the non-training days as ways to not eat in a surplus. And I would potentially use those days to deplete a little bit of glycogen and do a bit of cardio. I can't prove it, but I've done it. - Yeah. I can't prove mechanistically. People say, "Oh, you can't lose on one day and gain on the other." I'm like, "Oh, I can done it." (laughing) - I don't say that I have. - Yeah, but it just makes sense to me. And I've done it with Jackson and I do it with Kayla and like, yeah, like net overall, there's more gaining than losing happening. But then I'm like, "So is that why we're not getting like super soft?" Well, like I've done it with the cycle diet, it's just slow because it's four weeks. - Yeah, so I would deploy the cycle diet weekly. - Yeah. - That's how I would do it. I just wouldn't, you'd have net surplus, like net surplus, like targets. - Yep. - And then you would have net deficit targets too. And I would say even then, like, you could eat at maintenance. You don't necessarily need to eat in a deficit. - Yeah. - Or like, if you have two non-training days, one could be at maintenance and one could be in a deficit. And the thing I've found is just increasing someone's overall daily activity has been a huge contributor to them staying lean 'cause I think you'd utilize fuel better. - Yeah. - You know, and like I talk, you talk about, is it John Barati who talked about the, it's called the G-Flux. So it's the net amount of calories going in and out. So if I'm eating 2,000 calories and I'm burning 2,000 calories, then this is where my, the flux of energy is. But what if I was burning 3,000 or 4,000 calories and I was eating 3,000 or 4,000 calories? And I was up here, it's like, what are you doing to maintain that? - Yeah. - And it's like, does that have a net benefit on the other side of it? - Yeah. - Because there's part of that energy is creating muscle tissue. - Yeah, you're clanging and banging in the gym. - Yeah. - You know, if this person's, like just sitting at home doing nothing and eating 2,000 calories and, you know, they're expanding 2,000 calories and you know, apparently from the internet, you can spend 2,000 calories lying on your couch, apparently. So, we'll stab there. (laughing) So, so this person burns 4,000, but they're extra 2,000. So they're still maintaining. - What's going on? - But what are they doing? They're like I said, like you said, building strength, like challenging, they're nervous system challenging their muscles, you know, increasing or improving their cardiovascular performance. - Sleeping better. - And that's going to contribute to better nutrient partitioning, greater mitochondrial efficiency, better insulin sensitivity. So then it's like, well, who looks better? - You'd assume you'd have an overall better micronutrient profile too, right? - Absolutely, more food coming in. - Yeah. - So, that's where this concept, and then my boots on the ground experience collide and I'm like, this makes a lot of fucking sense. - Yeah. - So, over a 30 week period, would you be looking at that's like 20 weeks, and then because you're not fat, they're 10 week aggressive. - Yeah, and we've already, we've got proof we can drop a large amount of weight in a short period of time. - Yeah. - You know, so that's how I would do it. That's how I'm going to do it. You know, I'm going to get to like 12 weeks and then just go cool. I usually needed two weeks to get in. And then it's like 10 weeks. Go hard if I'm not fat, and the goal is just to not be fat. Like, you know, it's pretty funny when you say that, I'm loud like that, but it's like, "Gold, not to be fat." - Yeah. But like, you just don't need as much calories as you think to add muscle tissue. Like, you really don't. - Yeah. - You know, and like, again, the internet's gonna come for me saying that. But it's like, sure man, like, whatever. - Yeah. - You know, it is, you get to decide how you look at the end of your bulk, having done all of those, having done every strategy, and you know, I started at 62 kilos. I've got to 107. So I think I know a little bit about adding fucking weight. And I can tell you now that being big, slow, soft, having your blood pressure through the roof, being tired every time you eat is not good for you. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, and it's not healthy. Yeah. And like, you know, we're the test dummies for the protocols, right? Like I like to say to my guys, I'm the snow player. Yeah, so I'll do the, I'll pave the way and make the mistakes that you don't have to. And I would never do that again, especially at our age. Yeah. Like, you know, just, that's just pretty slow. All the more. Yeah, yeah, just putting so much pressure on your heart and your kidneys as well. Yeah. Like people just don't realize, like, you know, it's just not good for you, man. So I just, I just think like the 27-year-old us that's listening is like, I'm fucking care, bro. But it's, yeah. What you do care about is your performance in and outside of the gym. Yeah. And it's like, can you take your shirt off? Yeah. Every day for a year and be happy with what you see. Because I've got clients who can't. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. The vanity, like, aesthetic element. Yeah. The, can you show up and work element? Can you sustain your relationships? Do you want to go out on the weekend and have a social life element? Like, we've been in phase. Like, I had to stop. I think the work to walk to my coffee shop at that time was just right. Yeah. I had to stop because of my feet. And then I was like, look at it. You look, fuck is wrong with you, bro. And then six months later you did the same thing. Yeah. That's what's wrong with me. You couldn't walk a city block with my wife. Fuck. We'll backpumps. Yeah. That's not, um. Yeah. So you get to decide. So you cannot listen to us. It's fine. Yeah. Like, you'll just have to die it for twice as long. Yeah. And you're the same net result. Yeah. And you didn't have to feel this way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say for you, and this is the same for everyone. It's like, move more so you can eat more. I still think there's validity to distributing your calories in the days that you move more than other days where you don't. And then it's not using stop using the wrong rule of your progress. Yeah. You know, it's like you can't, you can't use scale weight weekly. You need to use monthly averages like think of it. No different to like progressive overload. Like you guys aren't new to the gym anymore. Yeah. So the neurological adaptations are gone. So you can't expect to always add weights and reps every week. It's unrealistic, right? So you would look at progress over a block. Yeah. Right. And you'd be like, cool. I went up 5% in my total volume or weight. Your body weight is exactly the same. You know, it's a monthly average is better than a weekly. And then you are not just comparing body weight, you're looking at the condition of the person. Because if the surplus is just above the maintenance, what do you think your body is going to do to get the extra energy that it needs for the demand that you're putting under? It's going to use a little bit of body fat. Yeah. And then you're going to fish away of doing it, but it's a good way of staying, you know, lean lean leaner. Then you would if you just sent it with the bulk. So I'm going to be cold this winter training training performance, like we said. Yeah. You know, more weight on the bar, more reps, you know, maintaining your rest periods. If you do them in a movement, the cardio stuff, you're going to be a robically fit. Like that stuff is all the contributors. And then you got your digestion. Obviously, like do you eat and feel energized? Do you eat and feel sleepy? And you're like, cool, I'm trying to keep all of these things in check. And I make decisions based on that. I wonder how much doing this would extend the hobby builder, body builder, power lift our strength athlete. How long would extend their time in the sport? Yeah. Not having to feel shit. Yeah. That's so much for half of you. I know it's made, I mean, I've really enjoyed. There's been a new level of enjoyment to everything for me for the last eight months. Yeah. There's about eight months from eight months ago. I've been able to take my shirt off and just be like, "Fly into it, fuck you." Yeah. Like, this is mad. And that's, I know I was 91 and I'm 89 now. Yeah. So, and I've got to, I don't know, maybe what, 10% body fat, maybe a little bit less. And then now I'm probably like 11 or 12%. Yeah. So, it's like the whole time I've been in an athletic level of body fat. And it's solely deploying the strategy. Remember ages ago I was like, "I'm just going to eat at maintenance and then like just above and then where's my weight moves?" I'll make the change. I've done the same thing with Jackson. I did the same thing with Isaac. I did the same thing with Kayla. And they all look like they all look great for the time they've spent in the bulk. Yeah. So, that's proof in itself that you don't need to eat that much. No, I mean, let's go. So, when's his photo shoot? I was like eating. Yeah. Yeah, wouldn't it be your month? Month? Months for something, yeah. Yeah. So, there's a heap of questions and stuff. But I think at the end of the day, it's the feedbacks everything. I've really, like the biggest takeaway for me from this entire episode. Make sure you're using the right rule of your progress. And I don't care what your goal is. Well, what aspect of life you want to fucking apply that to? Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, and I know people like, "Well, why do you do weekly check-ins?" Like, "Why would you do that?" And it's like, "No, that's because we're trending potentially four-week periods from each week." Correct. And then there's just so much more to it. It's like, "How are you showing up every week?" Yeah. Like, "What are you doing to stay accountable to everything?" Yeah. You know, it's like, "What is the suggestion is you were checking month to month?" Yeah, because I've even had, like, I've, I've, I know people fall into that trap too. It's like, "Well, what's the point in, in, then, in checking in every week?" And it's like, "She, it happens?" Yeah. Your, your body can turn on you in a moment, especially if you've been in a, in a prolonged period of specificity. And then you're trending four weeks from that week. Yeah. So it's always a rolling, you know, understanding of time. So for those people that are just sitting back on, "Oh, that's, that's silly." That's how we, that's like saying, "Why would you weigh in?" I'm, made on, on Talania. Yeah. You haven't actively been in the fit in SRAM? Right. You have to, in the comments? Yeah, you have to, all the details, bro. Pits in there. All the details. Gotcha. I'm gonna come for you. Anyway. So hopefully that gives you guys a bit of an inside sports on maybe how to deploy your next build. If you guys need a bit of help with that, as you can see, we've got a lot of proof here that we can help assist you guys with that. Maybe you, you don't want to build, you want to get leanar, maybe you want to get stronger. Maybe you want to get a combination of those, then maybe you want to work towards the photoshoot we have at the end of the year in November. So that's everything that we can do as part of our STC fit online coaching service. So if you want some more information, head to the website, hit us up in the DMs. Just have a conversation, see what a plan would look like for you. And you can decide from there on what you want to do. If you're a repeat listener and you haven't done the right thing, which is like the episode, follow us on whatever platform you're listening on. Maybe send it to someone who likes loves the dirty bulk. I'm happy to argue with them on the internet because, again, this is something I'm very, very knowledgeed on. So it's really fun asking for evidence and then people don't come back to you. So I'm happy to do that. So send it to somebody. If you are a new listener, get to the other episodes that we have. There's I think over 300 episodes. Just work your way back from this one though, because they will progressively get worse, I think. What do we delete those? So they may be deleted. Anyway, get back into the other episodes and welcome to the community. Say hello to your dog for me and we will catch you for another episode soon.