Ep. #194 - Cody Wittick (Kynship)

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All right everybody. I have a great guest coming up next and I will talk to you in just a second All right everybody welcome to another episode of the Shane white show I'm pumped today to have Cody Whittick from Kinship on the podcast Cody. What's up, man? Welcome to the show What's up Shane? How's he on it's going well, man pleasure having you you on I know we've had a we've had one conversation before this and loved it. So I'm pumped to learn more about what you do man For everyone listening who doesn't know you or doesn't know what kinship is Would you mind giving everyone just a quick elevator speech pitch? What everyone call it of you know the quick rundown Yeah, not a pitch just a little overview of what kinship is. Yeah, we're influence market agency and I just always say located in Orange County, California, but that was like hasn't been the case since 2020 so oh yeah We're fully remote. I am in Orange County, California but yeah, we're Influence marketing agency servicing D to C e-commerce brands with a physical product so pretty much a lot of people and Yeah, man it's been been a lot of fun. We've been around for like four or so years Oh, it's been a pretty long time. I've never seen that long and so for people listening who don't know what influence or marketing is can you Give everyone the the dumb down version of what that is. Yeah, so I feel like I'm talking to my extended family now Yeah, why is that always the case? What do you do? I'm in Marlton. Yeah, what do you do? What is that? No idea what that means? I try to explain people like selling stuff on Amazon and helping brands It's like talk them like way over their head after I'm like it's really not that complicated. It's just all the stuff you buy You know to be at least people have heard of Amazon though. That's bad. I would hope I would have Influence or marketing. I mean traditional probably definition is that it's This is not what we do, but it's utilizing influencers or people with social media following To take advantage of their audience You'll notice like that's a very transactional language, but usually you're talking about people with the social media following You know probably five to ten thousand and above There's different tiers of influencers too, but okay, yeah, you're you're getting someone to promote a Product or service on their social media platforms. That's like kind of like the most basic version of influencer marketing Because they have a highly engaged audience So you're trying to work with those people I Mean it probably be helpful to give like context influence marketing like that term didn't really come around until like 2014 2015 kind of with the rise of Instagram So like Instagram kind of made influencer marketing that term like that wasn't even a search term until then oh Before Instagram was there wasn't really a platform that people did influencer marketing on was there because Facebook was like that You didn't like follow people that were famous. Well, you did. I just don't they didn't call it influencer marketing It was called okay, you know working with celebrity talent or pop stars or like these different things like that. I think The rise of social media gave rise to the term what is now called influencer marketing before then it was you know product placement or You know working with celebrities or talent or Yeah, whatever the case minute maybe but you're you're also trying to work with them on platforms like TV or commercials or newspaper magazines like all these things, you know, it's just wasn't and maybe even like go back to early 2000s with like bloggers on you know promoting things on their individual blogs or websites But no one called it influencer marketing back then yeah, yeah, yeah, it's blogging did blogging then turn into What is a lot of social media like is that still a thing I guess like is blogging as big of a thing in your world as it used to be Yeah, I mean we don't really play in that world much yeah But I would imagine it is I mean with the whole like SEO play and things about nature is definitely Back links and all that stuff. There's a lot of people that make a lot of money through that. So sure. Yeah, I definitely definitely So for everyone listening to you obviously you you started you were at you've done other jobs before starting Kinship would you mind giving everyone a little bit of rundown of just the beginning of your career? Because I think it's a really cool story from what you told me last time. Yeah, you gave me too much credit It was really only one job. I worked Yeah, out of college I went on a year-long mission strip came home and was wondering what the heck to do and Stumbled upon a brand called K. Low which most people think is pronounced Kuehlo. Yeah, I was aware in mind this time. Yeah, the silicone wedding ring industry Basically a family friend that our family's kind of grew up together. It started at I came home It was kind of on the precipice of like booming In that same year they went from like zero to 40 employees I was like in the teen somewhere and I was basically I Started on just like the lowest level possible But within just because I kind of got grandfathered in I was quickly like able to get on the marketing team And I just started out as like the product seating guy, which is I never heard of that term, but The term literally just meant sending off free products and I was Learning under a guy named Jordan Palmer who's has has a name for himself today In the NFL world. He's like a quarterback guru. He played in the NFL his brother was Carson Palmer who played in the league for a long. Oh, yeah So I was learning under him and I was kind of he was just basically tasking me like hey, I know NFL I'm dialed in there. I'm gonna know everyone on every team or at least know someone on every team You got to get it into everybody's hands And every other sport like these different categories. So That became my first job, which was basically like okay start damning minor league baseball players major league baseball players Like NBA guys fire fighters, you know like just all these different categories mommy bloggers All I mean a wedding ring obviously the use cases and less. Yeah, so We were getting into CrossFit heavy into that time. So that was like a huge task of mine But that was really my own only role was like Make connections offered to send them the product get their size address info information and Send it out and just do this all day long. Wow, so you guys were you guys had a really big push to try to just get product in hand Yeah, it's that's like right well also, too It was just like it was a novel product right like no one had ever seen a frickin rubber Wedding ring, right? Yeah, I'm sure that cost was low, right? Like I didn't I can't imagine cost a ton to just give out free product Yeah, no I don't realize there. We never had a budget for seating. I'll just put it away. Yeah, yeah, yeah It's pretty kind of fun wasn't it because I mean you were reached out to some pretty interesting people I'm sure having some dialogue whether it was them if they're super fun super fun and And too I put I played College basketball and so it's kind of just one of those things where I felt like I was still able to have that locker room feel of Dislike yeah, I'm just shooting the shit with these guys and I just get to hit them up and offer free products. So of course on their favorite person like I'm not asking for anything Right. Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to say like hey, can you post seven times and we're just really interested in you and there's all these negotiations It's just like here's the Kalo guy So that kind of road for the next year or so and then pretty quick Jordan was getting involved in other things Didn't have the time to run really like the influence marketing program So in the meantime he's trying to raise me up to do everything at Kalo and so Over the course of time it just it began to be where I was Trying to do the influence marketing program and doing it and launching it for every category While still continuing to see create relationships, but then it turned into fast forward I was you know negotiating long-term contracts with Dylan Hart Jr. and Getting the ring on stuff curry and LeBron and all these different. Oh wow. Yeah, huge names Everything in between but Yeah, I was you could say I was a very busy person And it has pretty wild. I just get just get you get thrown into that Because yeah, so you got the you got the rings on people's hands and then obviously they must have loved it and reached back out We're like hey, we should do a bigger deal together. Is that kind of how that works or I would follow up I mean, yeah, like they would ask for more product because they would lose it in their locker room when they would travel or You know just stuff like that and then pretty soon it became I'm not damning them on Kalo Instagram I'm just texting all these people now. Oh which was like even better Because I was like the main I was like the gatekeeper to if they wanted to work with Kalo But that was our philosophy - it was just like man get the product into their hands no matter who they are How big they are we need them to like love the product and what I come to found out - it's just a led to way cheaper deals as well. Oh did it really? I don't know that like as far as like a first touch point But just through experience dealing with agents - and you're not like Hey, Dale Juner's agent We're just this random watch brand that you've never heard of we want to like work with you. Okay, it's a million dollars Versus like a Dale's going to the agent saying hey, I want to work with these guys like I love this product You're just gonna get cheaper rates. It just makes sense right. So oh yeah, for sure It's probably all the pull raise like yeah, just make a deal with them to make sense Did you we actually like texting like the Dale or hurts the world making like deals on on what this would cost? Well, I was in texting Dale specifically, but his agent stuff like that. Yeah, it helps But a lot of these two like these longer term contracts like end up being you know, I was seeding Dale and his agent For a year or so before we ever started having negotiations Wild so they're just a huge fan By that point so how did it how would it deal like that work like I mean, there's got to be a dollar that makes sense for Kalo And then are you guys figuring out like an ROI of like what if we pay this guy X amount of dollars, you know How much are we gonna assume he's gonna bring in and sales type of thing is it just you're just kind of making some Guest of it's and trying to figure out it makes sense. Yeah, well, I mean on a deal like that It's multifaceted. It's not just like hey, we're gonna pay you X amount of dollars for these amount of posts We're gonna give you a discount code and call it a day It was like a half day photo shoot. It was an appearance. It was white listing access and usage rights and I mean someone like that who's like a American icon like his signature and image and likeness is like pretty penny So like we're using him to get into retail partnerships like lows and home depot and oh, yeah I of course so we can put his image on and caps on a aisle and stuff like that like all these are things There's so so many convoluted, but we actually know total total investment And the return was a 2.4 Nice investment, okay, so wow and That's yeah, no, it was and then I'll deal like that. That's honestly breaking even is good Sure, I'm sure especially with someone with that kind of likeness Yeah, so I mean he has with that kind of product too. I would assume sorry not to cut you off, but you're good You know, I've had what I mean these things last a while at least I work out in mine every day But it isn't like my third one and I've had these since I got married so 2017 so I've had two or three and five years, but I like there's no reason for me not to keep buying them Yeah, I don't know, you know, I love the one that nice to have It's like you feel like you probably get you know as like as people are staying married. You're gonna have Customers for a long time probably that is that is the thing so keep them keep them married. Yeah Yeah, and Dale had his own like ring launch - so you had like his own design on a ring as well So that was kind of part of it his retail sales were part of it, but all in yeah 2.4 That's a wild very cool. So that that how long were you in that role for? Four years four and five years. Okay. I'll see you there for probably a lot of the major growth - yeah, I mean they went They got up to 40 million at its peak and then I was a little bit on the dip down I was that's when I was starting to think about Exiting or yeah me accident leaving A lot of competition came in right I remember competition and Yeah, I mean, I won't speak to it just because I wasn't behind the scenes, but I can all like guess just some of the decisions I Made that brought the brought the company down, but And they did they did sell and like right after I left So oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, they sell to a Company called win group. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah nice. I didn't know that was the thing. Oh wow. That's awesome good for them Yeah, very cool So you you're there for a while and then where did the idea for kinship come about while you're you know dealing with all these celebrities trying to sell Yeah, I would say I Started just getting restless with I felt capped At K. Low and so I was just like okay, I do I want to go do influencer marketing for The stances of the world or night keys or like just like these bigger name brands and use my experience And then someone kind of dropped an idea on my lap to kind of just basically say I think you should start your own influence market agency um And I just then that thought never even came through my mind actually so I like to say like oh my gosh I've been a have a dream of being an entrepreneur for Four years and I always knew I would start my own business. Yeah, I talked to people like that all the time But that was just not me for whatever reason um I always was like a leader and stuff, but I just never associated with the word entrepreneur like sorry my own business So it's sure prompted from someone else and I actually kind of laughed in his face. I was like No, like that ain't really you told him it was a bad idea. I didn't say it was a bad idea But I just kind of maybe laughed out of my own awkwardness or just like lack of confidence and like being able to do it But I end up I mean this is a huge thing of business. I just was able to partner with my business partner now and Yeah, we partnered up. We actually had a third business partner at the time We all partner up together and Yeah, this idea just kind of caught fire and More I prayed about it more. I just felt like and this is like the business no brainer like like So my business partner came from comic-throw collective my our third business partner at the time you so work with me at K.L Okay on the marketing team and so we had we had We launched and so I was just like all right. Yeah, let's let's run it So it was four months into my marriage. I was telling my now wife and being like hey, I'm gonna quit my job and we're gonna start a company But she was incredibly encouraging and super supportive and stuff like that, which was good Maybe feel a lot better. Yeah, it's a huge huge part of it for sure man. I know I've been through that That's yeah, that's an important piece of the puzzle When you guys jumped did you I mean did you were you the type of people who had some crazy game plan before you started Or do you kind of just start and figured it out as you went? We had an idea. I mean we we did the whole like creative business plan here's our Ethos and brand story and like here like we picked a name and we went through exercises and stuff like that and all that was super fun, but Honestly, I feel like for people starting businesses You're just you're never gonna like experiences the best teacher. You're just never gonna know until you just start like Start it right later. Just get it going. Try stuff, which is like I think I heard the same advice when I was starting, but it was just really hard to wrap my head around. You know, you're just like, okay, that sounds good, but in the meantime, like, we need to eat. Yeah. Yeah. There is something to be said about that, right? Of just like you can sit forever and ideate and try to come up with the perfect plan in reality. It's you need to go whatever it is you're selling, whether it's a service or a product. You need to go see if it'll actually sell. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So I would say like the first year, it was a lot of that. It was like a lot of like throw stuff on a wall and see what sticks. See what people want. Now, I would say honestly, probably a year and a half and we didn't really find it until that point, where we was like, okay, we have something here. Like we got some moment. Now we just need to make it better. It or find different things to make it more efficient. I mean, we're still doing that to a tee. So if for you back then, did you, did you go cold turkey and quit your job? Or did you kind of keep your job and do this on the side? Or how did you, how did you finance all of this in the beginning? We did have a small, like when I say small, I mean, very small, like seed round. Oh, okay. It's even like a, probably too much of a compliment to call it that. Like a friends and family donation. Yeah. You could say that. And so that gave us a little bit of runway. Of the first couple of months, but I also was like in the process of exiting K-L. Oh, okay. So there was like a month where I was like doing both, but it wasn't like the, do both for a year and do this on the side type of thing. It was kind of just like we need to, we need to all be in. And the other two were fully started. So it was kind of just waiting on me to get it full time. So all three of you quit your full time jobs to get this off the ground. That's, that's a, it's a lot of, uh, this is jumping right in. I love it. Yeah. Which reading Adam Grant lately, apparently that's not the best thing to do. Why do you say that? I've never read any of this stuff. He, well, I guess based on like the out of like you, he, he, he mentions, um, the people in, the people that started a war be Parker. Okay. I believe I could be wrong. I believe, but they were working their other jobs within like the first year while they're starting getting more be out, Parker off the ground, but like the common narrative is like, you're not going to be successful until you quit your other thing and just go all in on it. Right. But it's actually not the case. Apparently to a lot of other startups that end up being huge companies. Yeah. So, oh, it's different. I mean, it's, uh, probably depends on your stage of life too, right? I mean, totally. I think we've all heard a million stories about a college dropout who's probably not married or any kids, not that it's easier, but it's, you can always go back to the job and you're really risking a whole lot. It's, it's tougher and tougher, I think is you get later on in life. I know someone told me that, um, I, I did like an entrepreneurship component of my college degree. I undergrad degree. And I remember someone and one of my professors explaining that and trying to like see that to people of like, you know, just so you know, when you get out of here, like the next, really the next eight years is probably going to be like the highest likelihood that you'll take the risk. Yeah. And you would do this whole like, you know, risk analysis thing. And I remember being like, oh, it's, you know, 30. That's forever away. It's like having, it's like two lifetimes from now. You know, when you're like 21 or 20 in college, um, it's funny. That was flies by and then you're like, shit, I'm married. We're about to have a kid. We have a house, a dog like, yeah, how can I risk, you know, pretty much out of this. It's tough. It's tough. But good for you guys. I mean, that's, that's how it starts. Right? You got to just make the jump, make the leap. What was the first few months like, I mean, you're talking about ideating and getting all this together. But did you guys get any early clients that kind of took a risk on you guys and, and kind of helped you guys prove this out early on or how, how is the first getting the first few clients? So the, the agency that, um, we had an agency. It wasn't like a family of friends. We had an agency that like, she funded us. Oh, interesting. Okay. They ended up being like a little bit of a. Give us our first couple of clients. Give us our trial run, stuff like that. Okay. So that kind of got our feet wet for the first couple months, able to just do the thing. And then we were kind of for lack of a better phrase off the nap. Yeah. Yeah. We were quickly on our own. So we were just trying to. Yeah. Hustle. Um, kill what you eat. So, or eat what you kill. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So that's interesting though. Was it an agency in the same space or was it someone you guys knew in a different kind of agency world? Um, kind of both. Um, yeah. It was the, it was basically the agency that my business partner had just come from. Um, and so they were the ones that invested and we were able to kind of keep that relationship close. Oh, that's really cool. What a great, it's a good example of not burning any bridges because you never know what you're, you know, you're going to run into next, right? That's true. That's true. That's true. And then early on for you guys, I know the one thing. I really appreciate it and for everyone, we'll, we'll add links to the show notes to, to get everyone to be able to check out kinship. But one thing I just want to tell you right off the bat is I was really impressed with your website. Like one thing, it's funny that me and my partner business partner always talk about is we just got ours up and off the ground. Kind of what you were saying of just like, just start. And so that was one of the things that we put low priority. Like, we're not going to put a lot of time and energy into it because that's just that we didn't prioritize that. Yeah. But you guys, I mean, your website is killer. Do you think, I feel like for your agency and your business, it's really important because someone that comes to it, like, gets a really clear, quick understanding of what they're buying into. How much of just like your website in part of your brand story does this encompass? Like, was this a big focus up front? Because it seems like in the influencer marketing space, this is a pretty big important part. Yeah. Well, we actually, that's our third version of our website. Okay. So what do you see today? I don't see if forget what our first website looks like, but I appreciate the compliment. We definitely, we re-did our website about last year. But the website, yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm trying to get back in the brain of like first year. Man, honestly, what comes to mind is you're just trying to work networks, referrals, and people that know you like you. And you can tell, hey, this is what I'm up to. We started this agency. This is what we're doing. Trying all the different vehicles. So I started posting a ton of content on Instagram, actually. LinkedIn. And then we found Twitter and Twitter became like our number one source of leads. So we're, oh, wow. At that point, we're just kind of like, all right, well, let's, and this is the four brands, like brands finding you. Right. Yeah, very cool. Or, you know, just kind of people working at brands, whether that be the CEO or CMO or head of growth, that type of thing. So what for you guys are just super curious, what kind of content were you guys posting that drew that attention? Literally, just influence marketing, best practices, and our recommendations, our process, what we're doing. We're just explicitly clear on this is exactly what we're doing. Give them all the steps to do it and copy it. And then they would still want us to do it. So who I feel like, is that a Gary V thing? And he coined that exact same thing too, like just give everyone, give for free, give for free, and you know, people will then look at you as someone who obviously knows what the hell they're doing. So like give them the keys versus just trying to copy them. It's, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. Good for you guys. I'm sure there's people in there that, thank you. I'm sure there's people in there that actually do it. They take it and they're like, thanks, and then do it for themselves. But that's great too. So helping, helping everybody. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, you know, even if there are, that's, that's, that's like a risk at all. When you guys first started posting that stuff, did you ever think like, oh, people are just going to steal our stuff and not hire us? Was that ever a thought? Yeah. I mean, to me honest, it's still kind of a thought sometimes. You're just like, when you, when you put something out so public on social media and just basically like give them the blueprint, it's hard not to be like, not to have that inside of it. Just be safer if I hoard this and you're only going to find it if we do it for you. Yes. So that temptation is always there. I'm not going to lie. But we've just seen time and time again, given people the keys like, like what you're saying that at least business is not everyone that likes to tweet obviously, but sure, sure. People are consuming that. Yeah. No, that's really really cool. Since, so you guys have been running kinship for how long again remind me? It's been four years in January. So four years and almost four years. Almost four years. What has there been, you know, if you think about over the last four years, and I'm sure that's hard to remember all of them, I'm sure you've worked with lots of different clients and have had lots of good and bad have what would you say is there anything that stands out is just the biggest surprise when you think back to working at Kalo and then making the leap to now, like looking back and like, yeah, that was, that was a hurdle or that was a challenge that you didn't foresee. Yeah. Honestly, what comes of mind, and this is going to maybe disappoint people, but I was just talking with someone the other day and he was asking me like, do you actually regret any business decision? And I was just saying, I actually, you actually don't because even if it's a failure, it's like a great loss. experience and if it's success you can iterate it and make it even better and there's feedback so it's it's almost like it's a win-win on everything obviously no one likes to fail so it's like a shot to the ego yeah but yeah there's I mean so I mentioned in the first year that third partner was no longer a part of our company so I would say that's a huge lesson and that was a surprise and a difficult thing you know to like have a partner want to leave and also kind of be mutually aligned and we're gonna go our separate ways this isn't really a fit for you it's not a fit for us it's not healthy for anybody let's part of ways and the good thing it was pretty much mutual didn't anticipate that one in the first year okay so it was within the first year too so this wasn't like recent yeah right away what was I mean without sharing any details you don't want to what was what was kind of the lesson learned and I guess the the component of that that you look back on it was a surprise know who you're partnering with yeah without yeah without going into detail I think just being able to assess is this person gonna have my back is this person gonna gonna do everything their power to make it successful and yeah yeah I mean there's a lot of sports analogies you know it's like just I don't know if you play sports but it is yeah like just having teammates that some teammates that if they weren't pulling their end of the way like that's a huge problem yeah I can't trust this person I can't like do all these different things and so and you can only do so much before I mean if you're like partnering with random people that would just be a huge concern if you don't know their character in the way that that's gonna but if you have some perfect concept I'll just make sure that's the same page as much as possible before you jump in got it got it yeah and I be curious I've never I've never started anything with three people I be curious from your perspective three like the business I'm in now my co-founder like we have a really good year and yang and we've known that a lot of years so it seemed like a no-brainer when we we came together that we thought we'd be good co-founders yeah I've always thought a third would be an interesting dynamic especially if you're remote because it's like what if you're in touch with one more than the other how do you like I don't like I always feel like with three people it creates a different it's like another totally different dynamic of each person has a relationship with the other one that's different and then you three have a relationship together that's unique it's a different totally different thing than two I would assume yeah and I know businesses that have you more than that which is crazy to me so I can't imagine that it's and especially if everyone hasn't even share right if it's like not one person that's kind of got a little bit of the lead and they have the final say yeah I don't know it I mean it is like another marriage so it is you're you're working through stuff you're having tough conversations all the time so definitely definitely yeah very interesting well I mean that yeah that's a huge one what has been what's been the biggest like surprise or what what gets you up every morning that keeps you so excited you know that you've been into it for almost four years I'd be curious to know that as you know you've been owned in business for quite a long time now that's a good question I think I we're still we're still small even though we've been around for four years so I think the growth potential and hitting goals is incredibly motivating I think the ethos of what we're preaching as an agency which is like generosity at the end of the day is really powerful it's like I mentioned in the very beginning we do things a lot different than influence like traditional influence marketing agencies yeah yeah so I think the fact that we're different and we're we have more competition now than we did even a couple years ago or a year ago that that's always motivating you know we got mouths the feed that's motivating like there's a lot of innovating yeah so like so all that's a melting pot and I think like I mean I'm sure you feel us to just the fact that it's mine and you're responsible for stewarding it is motivating you have a self you know like I shouldn't be doing this if I didn't feel like that pull to like hey this is mine and it's time to make it better share it with the world and get more clients and just stuff like that you know definitely yeah so no love that answer that's fantastic no it's usually that's great so for we kind of talked about what kinship does obviously I mean that's really interesting here and a little bit more about the the zero to one of getting it off the ground for brands that could be listening today what is what's a relationship look like with kinship and I know you said you guys like to think of yourselves as approaching this this agency world that you live in very different than a lot of the other agencies so just give everyone this listening a little bit of a run through of exactly what that relationship looks like with you guys and why it's so different yeah I mean the relationship looks like like a typical agency client relationship where we're taking the labor and work off their plate and doing it for them which in influence marketing looks like ID and influencers reaching out to them getting them the product all that labor that takes a lot of time giving them reporting calls all that stuff which is standard the way that we go about doing that is very different from the rest industry and the fact that we offer them the product or our clients product no strings attached so we don't actually ask for anything so that came from my days at KLO and what you end up getting is a ton of content posted about you even still without us even asking and then we leverage that content within paid media that's kind of like our two services so we use influence or seeding mechanisms and campaigns to generate a ton of content which gives the clients a lot of ad creative which they're happy and it's a huge pain point nowadays yeah and then we leverage that content on paid social so and then the long-term effect is like these brands actually have authentic genuine community around them that they can continue to tap on so so you guys essentially help the brands connect with these influencers get free product in their hands and then these influencers may or may not post about it is that kind of the is that kind of where the may or may not but we have certain expectations because we do it like we outreach to 500 influencers we expect a hundred at a minimum to get product and we expect 30 to post two to three times out of about a hundred oh wow okay that's pretty good conversion odds that's great yeah so we've just found these you know we talk about iteration that package used to start at 300 and then we added more influencers we found the sweet spot of conversion rate and all these different things and and we see brands you know blow those metrics out of the water all the time but that's kind of just the minimum expectations that we set yeah like they're kind of the benchmark and then they think about that is great so yeah and then what what this something I've always been curious because I feel like this world has changed so much but let's just talk about maybe like Instagram first what would be like influencer like is there numbers of followers that you guys as an agency like you must live by like what what denotes you know small influencer do a larger influencer and is that always changing and moving it seems like a a barometer that can never be the same well there's just like everybody has their own definition so if you google tier influencer marketing tiers of influence or tiers of following like you're gonna get 25 different definitions we have our own so like microbes are between 5 and 150 K but oh it's a pretty great 5 grand 5k to 150 K's micro yeah the reason the reason it's broad is on purpose just because we don't put a lot of stock in follower account so okay sure why is that because the number one value out of an influencers or content ability okay okay so that's the number one value asset which has nothing to do with their followers we're just saying like even someone like me you're saying if I had if I had really good valuable content that I create in my follower account right now is really low you're you're banking on the contents being good over time that could totally change yeah most and most of these micro influencers have built their following base off that content not because of their cloud and so when we have proof of concept and we put the product in their hands and if they enjoy the product they're gonna post similar content to that so that we can re-purpose so I mean a simple way to think about it is just like a one stock versus a diversified portfolio like the one stock would be like their organic social channels like I'm really relying on Shane to promote that content to his audience but that's a problem just because not that it's not important but it's just it's really hard to that content to be seen by a lot of different people sure and and convert ultimately sales right yeah their diversified portfolios the brand has all these different channels that they can repurpose this content so whether that be on Amazon for example or a YouTuber on Facebook ads which is where we live so email like all these different marketing channels like you have a marketing mix that you can place this content so that's where you can kind of get that diversified portfolio effect. Got it. Okay. Oh, it's super interesting. Yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense, though. I know I think I might told you the story when we connected last time, but when I was at our ex, we paid blank on his name, Vinny from Jersey Shore. When he was like really pushing the the keto guido thing because that was like an arrow and he was going ham on all that. We launched a nut butter product that we gave him. And I'm blanking now on the dollar value, but I remember getting told how much we were paying him for a single post and about having a heart attack as a finance guy responsible for this and being like for one post. And I don't never forget, and I butcher this number, but I remember being really small. I want to say it was like two or five conversion total we got. Oh, this campaign and this campaign was, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to do. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was like, I mean, it was bad. It was, it was not good. There are many stories like that, my friend. Yeah, I'm sure which is makes total sense while you do what you do. So that's really interesting. So do you and you guys without getting into the weeds of the detail behind what you guys do, but I'd be curious like do you guys lean heavier to like micro influencers or do you kind of have a mix of that and larger influencers are like, where's the sweet spot for you guys? Yeah, it's everyone. It's everyone in that range. 5, 150k. That's who we are. Okay. Got it. Oh, so once they're above that, it's kind of a different ballgame. Yeah, we've just found, I mean, I'm, if someone has 151,000 followers, I'm sure it's no different, but just kind of like the pool of people we're picking from. We don't rub talent or anybody. We're just finding the right people on behalf of the brand. Got it. So good. And I'm assuming if you're someone on Instagram who's got hundreds, if not a million followers, is that like, do those people just leverage their accounts so differently from like a monetization perspective? Like they're just, it's just a totally different thing, right? Yeah, and you have agents in there, like the person's not even managing their own account. It's just a whole different world. Okay. Yeah, that makes tons of sense. I know I do, I work with I work with one brand that I don't want to get the details of it, but I know we've struggled with. They work with someone who's got a pretty, pretty large following and you can tell that. It's like, they're really not even in the account. You know, it's not even their content. It's wild, but some of these people get to that place and it's just, it's like someone else is totally, it's a business, it's not even their Instagram anymore. Oh yeah, 100%. That's exactly right. Yeah. Very cool. So for you, I mean, your four years in for, do you feel like you're in a place where obviously, as you just mentioned, you know, setting goals and continuing to try to grow the agency sounds like it's still a, it's obviously a huge thought for you every day. But where do you see the agency going? Do you have any other aspirations or things you're trying to attach yourselves on to over the next one, three, five years? It's a really hard question, I know, because that, that it's like who knows? It's so far away, but would you speak here? I swear your head's that. Yeah, I think the way the world's going, the more that you can automate and make it done for you and done with you and like, and do it yourself. So like, D FY, DWI and DIY. Okay. Yeah. So like, I think that's a goal of ours is to make it a DIY place where, where brands can come and emulate our process. Oh, cool. It's more like a self-form. Yeah. I had to say it's saying that we're just because there's so many freaking platforms out and influence marketing. Sure. But yeah, ways that we can automate the system and the process that we've built out for people. Very cool. That one I can imagine that just adds a scale that's nearly impossible when you have the hands of keyboards, right? Like that's a totally different thing. Right. Exactly. Got it. Totally makes sense. How many people are on the team today? We're like 10 or so. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So pretty good size. Yeah. We're small. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just an animal. Yeah. Especially when you're remote. Has it been a challenge for you guys just having a remote team? I've kind of gotten used to it. It's weird at first, but, um, yeah, there's still like, I mean, there's people that have been with us two almost two years and they've never met them in person. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's no need. I mean, there's no need unless you really want to. It's crazy how we can get so much done remotely now. Yeah. This whole podcast has been remote for it's a good example. I think I've done like almost 200 episodes and I've met like three or four of these people in person. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, that's so rad. And at the same time, I wish we were in the same living room. I know. I know. I just had the different dynamic. 100%. I know. But I'm with you. There is a, there's a lot that you can get so much more done when you're remote. I feel like personally, like whether you want to spend it on work or not on work or whatever you want to need to do. Want to do. Yeah. But there is, there is a component. I mean, I think you and I talked about a little bit. I mean, back when we had an office, even the first one, which is a tiny office for our X bar that I was a part of, there was something about it. It's just like impossible to emulate virtually. Like it's, oh my gosh. Yeah. The hustle and bustle. Yeah. I'm sure sure the exact same thing. Yeah. You probably have stories from that that's like impossible to recreate in the virtual workspace. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. Wild. All right. So I know as we're getting lower on time, Cody, the last few questions I'd love to ask every founder that comes on here. And I'm pumped to hear your friend. I know you're going to have some good ones. The first one is around source of knowledge. So always love to ask if you have any, you know, books, podcasts, articles, anything you've read recently that just really made an impact to you that you'd like to share with the listeners today. I don't read much business specific books these days. I don't think anybody's sure on those though. But I'm a big, out of grant fan. So any, any books that he has, I would highly recommend. Think again, as a great one. I haven't read any of his books. You mentioned him earlier in the podcast and I wrote it down. I'm going to, I'm going to get some of this stuff. What's your favorite book of his? He said, think again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Simon Sinek. I mean, I guess that's that's a close good more than a leadership style. So yeah. Awesome. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. I will add, I'll add one of those to the show notes to one of his books. The next one, this is my favorite. What do you use daily to get shit done? So are you a pen and paper guy? I know you have a, see you have a whiteboard behind you. Do you use some apps? What do you use to just organize your life, get shit done and hit your goals? Honestly, Google Calendar. Where would I be without a freaking automated calendar? HubSpot. Big fan of HubSpot. I have the full focus planner. No way. Yeah. Michael, I got the same one. I have a couple over here. They're all around. That old ones. It's turned into just, I just write random stuff on there that I need to get done. I haven't really used like the daily big three and tasks in a while. So I don't really use the structure much. Okay. Okay. Did you have one point? I did. You're the first person who have ever interviewed who's, who's mentioned that. I've been using it for a long time. Yeah. I used to. I probably could, it would probably help to get back to my partner and I used to have like, check in on like, hey, what's your big three for today? What's your big three? Oh, and we actually do it with our employees. So we've implied that to our employees. They have like a Slack channel called big three. They give their big three for the week. So we've, we've used it. But now I feel like a fraud because I don't want to use myself. So you know what's it's funny. You say that I started using it right when I got my business off the ground and I always go back to it and saying like I genuinely think, you know, no tool is going to like, is going to outwork just hustle and working hard and do something every day. But I it like made me visualize what the goal was and then what's that mean weekly and then how do you get a little thing done at least once a day to get towards your goal? And I genuinely, I do give it some credit on. I think it helped me get my venture off the ground and then I not use it. I've kind of the same boat as you where I like kind of use it sort of ish. Yeah. And I sometimes I feel a little lost because I still have, I have a lot on like Google sheets that I, and I always blame there's, there's our businesses got into a place where there's just so many things going on that I can't use that generally anymore. But I think it was the whole point. It was the whole point of it was there's so much going on. How do you boil the ocean to what's really important, right? So it's like there's like a fraud too because I'm like that's the whole point of it is when you're overwhelmed just write it down and we'll keep each other accountable. So I mean deal with your big three tomorrow. All right. There we go. Deal. Check in. Cutting. We're going to keep each other on track. The last question and most important question is, is how can listeners brands anyone listening get ahold of you personally? So if they want to follow you on any socials or websites or anything you want to promote? And then how can people get involved with kinship? I'll answer both questions with the same answer. Just connect with me on Twitter at Cody_Wittick and DM me there. So we can connect on Twitter. This is probably just the easiest way to connect with my agency too. I can answer questions or even if you're not interested in hiring us, happy to be a resource for influencer marketing. Love it. Awesome. We'll Cody. Thanks for the time today, man. Really appreciate it and hope you have a great rest of your day. To appreciate the time. Thanks, Shane.