Ep. 19 with Grace Ellen Hanna: All About the Death Penalty

they get assigned a new lawyer for their climate scene review so it's someone who doesn't know them. Does it know the case? And they come in and they do an interview. The lawyer comes to the present to stay with the prisoner and the interviewer's from the Florida Commission of the Fender Review, meet via Microsoft Teams with them. It gets about 30 minutes of conversation to determine whether or not a person should be put to death or not. Yeah. You're listening to Creativity Unconfined. Stay tuned to learn about how the arts unlock the doors for those who are imprisoned. Welcome yet to another episode of Creativity Unconfined. My name is Asever, Dave Gosek. And I remain the director for the Florida State University Institute for the Arts in Art Therapy with the imprisoned. Today we have as our special guest, Grace Ellen Hanna, who is the executive director for the Floridians for alternatives to the death penalty. Now, the way I met Grace was fortuitously and that she had sent me an email several weeks ago that simply said, "Hey, I have a lot of artwork from people on death row. Would you be interested in looking at it and perhaps we can discuss the possibility of collaborating on some of this?" And of course, needless to say, I was intrigued. So I immediately reached out to her, set up a couple of meetings. We've met a few times already. I was like, "You know, we've got to get this person on this show." So here we are. Thank you so much for being to do this. It's out of nowhere. I think you've known me all of three weeks and four days and yet there's already a kindred connection there. So tell us, just for the audience, how does one become an executive director for the Floridians for alternatives to the death penalty? How did you get here? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So I came into this work kind of accidentally. I a social worker by training and have worked in the clinical space doing therapy and all of this was kind of backed up by an early life experience, a family member of mine, a cousin on my mom's side of the family was murdered when I was in elementary school. And that just started really interesting conversations within our family about what is justice and how do we look after those who do serious harm? And I can't say that within my broader family that everyone landed on the same side of things. But I landed on my side and ended up doing some volunteer work with different death penalty groups. And ultimately it was a board member at FADP and then the staff lived at FADP. And then I took over as executive director in November. Okay, so just back up a little bit. So you were in elementary school, but you were old enough to recognize the enormity of the situation. Your cousin on your mom's side was killed. How old was your cousin? If he was in his early 40s. And was this, I mean, I hate to dwell on this, but was this, I mean, what was the context of this? Yeah, he was the overnight clerk of the gas station in another state and it was a robbery, I think, over like 600 dollars. Just, I mean, really since let us violence and also a crime of poverty, right? This is, somebody doesn't steal, somebody doesn't rob a gas station for 600 dollars, unless they really need that 600 dollars often. And it just went south real quickly. And they caught the guy. We did in another state. He had fled. Okay. And was you brought to Florida or the North Carolina? North Carolina. Okay. And so here he was, he was acquitted for murder. Was he also in death row? He was not. He is serving lives in tents. So he's still around. And so, yeah, I mean, your elementary school student, you're hearing a lot of different stories on both sides of the issue from your family members. What was, how does one at that young age start to develop a sense of that concept of what's right or wrong? Yeah, you know, I don't know that I totally had that at the time. And I think that my parents are, my dad in particular, loves to play devil's advocate and like would get us thinking. And that, you know, I think that we really did have both kind of sides of things, you know, as far as there can be two sides to how we treat other human beings, but had both of those presented to us. And, you know, I can't speak to how extended family, you know, landed on the issue. But I do know that like my brother's a public defender. And I am doing this work. And so the way conversations went in our house was towards empathy and, you know, broader understanding of the human being who committed, like, you know, I can acknowledge like a heinous crime. Okay. So even within that context of recognizing that there's a heinous crime and knowing that somebody deserves to be punished or potentially rehabilitated. What are, there's the emotional and philosophical perspectives of the death penalty. And then there's a pragmatic side of the death penalty. And this is a loaded question. But what are your perspectives on both sides of those concepts? Yeah. I mean, I completely understand how someone who experiences an act of violence or had an act of violence, you know, on someone they love could land thinking that the death penalty is the appropriate punishment, right? I think that some things are so terrible and that is such a human reaction right to my retribution or to want things to be made whole, right? And I think that it is, it's not going to solve anything, right? If the death penalty brought people back, right? Okay, then like we could have a real debate, right? But it's not going to bring anyone back to life. And it's actually going to create a new grieving family. And I, you know, spend a lot of time with the family members of murder victims, and both who are for and against the death penalty. And it's just interesting the way that people come to see that. Some come from this lens of like, I need forgiveness for myself, right? So I'm come from this lens of like, okay, well, when an execution happens, like then I will have peace and closure, whether or not they experience that, you know, I think it varies by the person. And then some come from this lens of like, I just want to get it over where I just want things to be done, because I think that's one of the, like you said, the practical issues with the death penalty is that, you know, we have a constitution, which is great. We need a constitution, and that guarantees people do process, right? And so we have to have this appellate process, right? Things can't just, you know, people often say like, oh, we'll limit it, you know, one week after their last appeal, that's it, right? And what we see is that evidence, wrongful conviction, evidence of legal conviction or unconstitutional conviction. Sometimes it takes years to come out. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so you're saying, there's so, there's so many different directions. There's a lot of it. Yeah. So you meet with the victims, families, those that are, and they're of course in support of the person, of course, being, being imprisoned, but you're saying that they come on both sides of the issues. I'm not going to yet get into this notion of those victims, family members who are against the death penalty. What's it like for you to sit across from those family members who are all for the death penalty? Think this person should be put to death. How do you, as the executive director now of this organization and on the board before that, respond to them? How do you speak with them? How do you carry that? Yeah, you know, and to be clear, I don't certainly don't meet with every single family. Of course. Of someone who, you know, every single family of a victim, where crime has resulted in a death sentence, but when they reach out or, you know, when contact is made and they want to do that, I am always glad to do it. I think it's in particular that happens prior to an execution. They'll reach out often on social media, which I think is really interesting. There's some does a message, and it, you know, it's difficult, right? Like it's every murder, it's a tragedy, right? Like, and I say that about executions, like every execution begins with someone's, like, worst day, right? And so I'm, you know, seeing them at a moment when, after 20, 30, 40, you know, 47 in one case years, they are having the worst day of their life kind of brought back up, and not just brought back up, but brought back up in a way that is very public, and can be used in a way that's politically advantageous for people, and, you know, in a way they're kind of brought out and presented as like, here is this family that we are getting justice for today, and some who support the death penalty are really, you know, lean into that. And some really, you know, they're like, I kind of want this to be, you know, done, or like this is something I feel like I need for myself, and that's, you know, kind of a private act of closure, if you want to call it that. But really, they land on all sides of the issue. And so I just try to approach it with empathy for the fact that, like, these are hurting people who often have been hurting for a really long time and who have been promised that, you know, on this unspecified date in the future, right? You know, they're told this in trial, like, like, one day in the future, you'll have an execution and then you can have peace. And I really do always leave with, like, I hope this gives you that, right? And, you know, Sister Helen Prejohn talks about in her book that early on, a victim's family, the victim's father came to her and said, you know, you always offer support to the animator, to the condemned and why don't you offer support to us? And she, you know, since she was kind of embarrassing to me that like, I hadn't thought of that before or I had been too cowardly to be willing to sit with those people. And it's kind of the approach I've taken. I'm not, you know, claiming to be any expert at it. But when they want to talk, I think I have a duty to do that, especially if I'm going to stand out there and say that we don't need enough penalty. That's such a courageous act to be willing to sit across from the victim's family member. And, and recognize that they want this to be carried through in your stances. This needs to stop. And, and certainly you don't push that agenda. You sit there and you pay attention. Have, and you're saying that there are sometimes where it doesn't feel like that there's that sense of peace that they were promised that may happen after. Have you had any follow-up? Were you able to speak with any family members after the execution takes place? Yeah. Yeah. So I want to, you know, respect everyone's privacy here, but there was an execution several years ago. And I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, what has been happening with executions in Florida. But where the victim's family was very in support of the execution and came and witnessed the execution because that's a lot in Florida. And then, maybe six months or a year later, reached out to the sister of the man who had been executed and just said, like, hey, like, I wanted to let you know, like, I, I don't feel better. And they've actually developed somewhat of a relationship, which is really cool. But it's also really sad that this is, you know, how, how this happened, right? They could have been friends just because they were friends, right? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to ask a personal question because this affects me as well. I, and a lot of people don't often realize this. I've been, so we're going to turn the spotlight just a smidge in here because I want to put this in context. You know, I have been involved within this work and correctional spaces for 35 years. I have family members, cousins and aunts and we're very supportive of what I do, believe in what I do. And then I have some family members who are, how shall we say a little bit more conservative in their viewpoints and think that I'm just a bleeding heart liberal or that they don't really pay attention to what I do because they're on the other, I'm on the other side of the fence. And so I'm coddling them and I'm doing things. So needless to say, those are in conversations I like to have during Thanksgiving and I rarely speak with them about my own work. How do you negotiate that space with family members? Because what I do is is considerably more gray than you, right? I work with many people inside. Some people with very short sentences, some people who are obviously innocent people who are placed there because mental health care is not available on the outside, so they imprison them. So mine's a little bit gray and I can defend it a little bit stronger. Yours is a little bit more black and white. What does that like if you don't mind me going into that detail to be at a family function with people who think that what you're doing is quite frankly wrong? Yeah, or you speak in both of my own family. Yeah, I think the phrase I've been using even to talk about some of my friends is like, well, you know, they're not on my side of the issue, but they're on my side. Well, that's nice. What's that like? Yeah, I think living in Tallahassee is really interesting because a lot of people work in state government, right? And to be clear, I think that I think the death penalty is also a conservative issue. They're a plenty of conservatives who believe that it's wasteful and that it's not pro-life, right? But the death penalty is so, you know, it can people can fall on both sides, but, um, you know, I think I I tend to just like as a matter of my personal like ethos is still mean into the idea that people are doing the best that they can with the information that they have, right? And being just because they don't oppose the death penalty right now doesn't mean that they want to pose a death penalty one day. And, you know, I hope that they come to that in their own time and also like I can, you know, disagree and I don't love to like disagree and be agreeable because I think sometimes you can't be agreeable, you know, when the human rights are on the line, but you can, you know, disagree and still have love and affection and care for people. I that's a remarkable stance and so I would hope that there are more people out there that can have that stance, but that's it's tough. It's very difficult. And now, you know, you've you've done a lot of work in the mental health field, you're a social worker, you get involved in the death penalty here in Florida. You've been the executive director for what all of eight months. And this past year has shown remarkable number of executions in the state. What? What's all due respect? What is happening? And is this a national trend? What's happening around the country? And then what's happening here in Florida? And is there any within your realm, what you're comfortable talking about? What is the impetus behind this? Yeah, you know, I think that nationally, it's interesting because if you go and look at news stories, you know, they'll say executions at an all-time high, you know, thanks to Florida, right? Thanks to Florida. Thanks to Florida. Yeah. Oh Florida, why did that be you? No, I know. Last year in the United States, there were 40 executions, which was an increase from the year prior, though I would say that honestly from 2020 to 2024, 25, there was still this like sequela of COVID and that things in the courts have been slowed down and the prisons have not been operating at full capacity. Though, you know, there's more I could say about that, but it last year, we just imported a choke off right on the gate with executions. We had 19 executions last year, 19, 19. The second most executing states or two of them had five each. Oh my goodness. Yeah, 19. 19. Do you just, I don't know why I'm curious about this more curiousity? What is the highest number of executions in a given state any given year? Yeah, I think it would be Texas under governor Rick Perry. It was like 40 something. Oh, yeah. So he governor Perry under his administration and he didn't personally like select and all scheduled the courts are involved there, but over his administration, I think there were around 200 executions. So that is aberrant, but Florida last year, you know, we say that things are unprecedented before it was truly unprecedented, especially considering, you know, the record of the years before. Wow. Well, the work that you're doing is quite intense. It's a lot. We're going to get into your own later how you take care of yourself because I think that's extremely important. But then also, there's that consideration where, and there's a lot of us doing this work, and sometimes we feel like we're just kind of running in place. So what I would like you to do is talk about some successes that you've had both this past year as a new executive director and as the board director, and how effective is this organization? And what can we look forward to as we move forward? Yeah, you know, I think that right now we are in this period of time where the executions are not slowing down, right? So in Florida, executions are set and scheduled by the governor alone, which is actually fairly unique to Florida. Other executing states have either the attorney general or a court. So the governor makes that decision. Yeah, your name. Yeah, so it's not even your name. It's I want to have an execution. And here's a list of people who've exhausted their appeals and gone through their clemency interview, which is a shaman foot also, but have gone through their clemency interview. And I'm going to choose from this list. What explain to me the clemency interview and why do you say that it's a shaman foot? Yeah, so I don't I can't speak to how it works for non-capital cases. So I don't know, but in Florida, no one has been going to clemency since 1983 from death row ever. So it's 83, governor Graham. Really? What's What's the criteria for clemency that makes it so difficult for them to acknowledge that perhaps an 80-year-old should not be put to death, I'm sorry if I bring up something so specific. No, no, yeah, no, on Friday night, the governor said that that's weren't for an 80-year-old, so that's not that unspecified, killed me the oldest person executed in Florida. And, you know, I don't know because the clemency process is fairly secret, but we don't know, you know, anytime after someone's appeals had been exhausted, they can't get, they don't always get it immediately, but they can get a letter saying, you know, you have a clemency interview on X state. And they get assigned a new lawyer for their clemency interview, so it's someone who doesn't know them. The lawyer comes to the prison to stay with the inmate or the prisoner and the interviewers from the Florida Commission of the Federal Review meet the Microsoft teams with them and gets about 30 minutes of conversation. To determine whether or not a person should be put to death or not. Yeah, and then the lawyers submit a memo and oftentimes, you know, depending on the case and the involvement of family and friends, they can submit information. I think that's actually an opportunity to submit artwork and talk about just someone's growth in prison. But that report goes to the clemency board, which is the governor and his cabinet. And right now, I guess I will note that all of the governor's cabinet safe with the commissioner of agriculture were appointed by the governor. And so to get clemency, the clemency board, anyone on the clemency board can receive that packet and request a clemency hearing. And then the governor and the majority of the board have to vote for a clemency, but they have to actually request the clemency hearing first. So often, we believe that people aren't even getting that. They're just having the interview. I think we've talked about this before and you may have actually read art on trial. Art therapy and cap and murder cases. So I've been involved with not just that case, but just for a background that was brought in to provide expert witness testimony on the artwork of somebody that was to be sentenced for whether or not they would be sentenced to death or what the truck basically the trial was to determine if there was mitigation of for death row. In that particular state, mental health is mitigating factor. And so a person is not meant doesn't have good mental health as mental illness. They can't be put to death in that particular state. I was brought in and it stretched out over several years. That's when I found out all of this detail about death row, the process death row attorneys that they're specifically people that specialize in death row cases and cap and murder cases. I don't want to give away the ending of book, but we were able to determine that the artwork that did demonstrate that there was evidence over a hundred art pieces, demonstrated that there wasn't any mental illness at the time in the crime. His sentence was mitigated. He was given basically what essentially was life. There were two other cases. One was a federal case. One was a state case in which the person was already on death row. They wanted me to come in and speak about the value of the artwork that they were creating to determine if there was value and worth and that there was humanity in bed in that person so that you can actually use the art to reflect the humanity. It's easier to kill somebody when they're an objective and they're dehumanized and so there were a couple of cases that we didn't go all the way to trial, but I helped support by providing information, giving my feedback about the artwork. To talk about how the art was sometimes brought in for these acts of clemency, obviously it doesn't succeed here in Florida, not since '83. We'll get into the art just a moment, but there are still some things that although there hasn't been clemency, there's still some things you can point to and say yes we help to make that happen. What have been some of the things that you've been doing that have been positive? Yeah, I think that one thing that we do positively is we provide a lot of support to the families of people on death row particularly during this like 30 day period from when the governor signs a death warrant to the execution. It's usually like 28 to 32 days give or take a few and our organization was given money several years ago by actually someone on death row who died of natural causes and unbeknownst to most people had inherited some money. And also I believe had written some books. I don't really know how it all came to be, but he left some money to us and a few other organizations kind of with the writer that it be used for family assistance. And so we have been able to do things like pay for flights or hotel rooms for families to come and spend you have their final visits with their loved one. And some really beautiful stories from that just family members who hadn't been together in 20 or 30 years. They're getting to sit with each other and on the day of an execution they get a contact visit for an hour and getting to touch each other for the last time of the month or in time, for example. I think that's great. I think that what we do to raise awareness of the death penalty is incredibly important and we have seen just our numbers grow even just like people following us on social media. And I think that's a great metric of how many people are wondering about Twitter's death penalty. And you know, just like being the source of information on capital punishment within the state. So being available to reporters when they need you some technical aspect of the law explained or they need that humanizing information. And also working, you know, political groundwork, right? We will have a new governor in January. And I think that given the amount of executive power is given in Florida to look in terms of capital punishment, I think that that is both an opportunity and you know, a little bit scary at the same time. I think what has been happening over the last 18 months has been really awful and it is an awful that we know. And I certainly wanted to end now, but any time this transition, it's like, well, you know. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. And so I'm assuming given the climate that you're already speaking to those potential candidates. Yeah, I mean, so we are a nonprofit so we cannot engage in political advocacy and we're a nonpartisan organization also, but you know, I think that politicians work for the people, right? Yeah, hopefully they work for the people. And so ensuring that constituents have a stance on this, I think is also a big part of our work, right? We want people to oppose the death penalty. Again, I'm not under any illusions. You know, people are not going to vote based on the death penalty. Maybe some people will, right? Some people might, but this is not like a single issue. Right. Right. But I think it's just the broader context of what someone believes. And I think what I'm fascinated by some of the things that we've talked about is that you also have a wonderful relationship with the settings with the people that work with the needs, you know, you speak with the wardens, you speak with the congressional staff. They know who you are. There's not an us versus them. It's not a black and white relationship. You're able to make those connections. Yeah, you know, I think that I don't want to overstate the level of a relationship that we have. I certainly work with them. So I think with the families is a particularly good example of ways that we work together. You know, the wardens want particularly on death watch, which is not last 30 days. I think the wardens do want to treat people with dignity, right? And I can't speak to, you know, every interaction. I also can't speak to every correction staff. Of course. But I guess I would also say like I think that people want to treat like, you know, the elderly mothers of these men with dignity, right? And even within the prison, right? Like there are ways we work together and it is better for everyone, if we get along as long as we're working for the prisons. And that doesn't mean that I don't want the death penalty to end. And I also think that a lot of correction staff don't like the death penalty. Yeah. And I think that's important to underscore because in my own work, you know, again, it's not nearly as extreme in that regard. But I find that there are, you know, I work close with the department of questions. We have a wonderful dynamic relationship on there because of them. And we are able to work with those are inside because we recognize the safety and security and the difficulties are inside. And there's that there are those gray areas that we find ourselves on the same place. So I'm so glad to hear that that's important. underscore that you know it's it's confusing and I think everybody inside and out are confused by it and what I just start this conversation of course was that you had come across this artwork was that a surprise to you? I had heard about death row artwork for a long time our former executive director is also a capital defense attorney and so she had in her house just some artwork from clients of her former clients and also doing some of the you know collecting letters from pen pals and family members and things for clemency I also got to see a lot of it but the way that this ultimately came to be was a man who was executed in March we had previously been involved we had done a clemency submission on his behalf just with information from his case and from family members and friends and so I was very familiar and then when he got a death warrant he left a lot of his art to a dear friend of his and she was gracious enough to allow FADP to use it you know it does not ours but we are fortunate enough to get to steward it for a little bit so when you say that for you to use it help you know how do you see it being used what is its role in all of this art is really humanizing for people right these are human beings who are living their life in prison you know I think that there's a prisoner I know fairly well who he calls his cell his room right and I commented on that two months and he's like well like this is my home this is where I live right I am here now and so like this is my room and these are my neighbors right and I had never thought of it that way before but like these are human beings who are having a life and it looks very different than my life right but they are nonetheless having a life and have hobbies and have interests and have you know dreams and regrets and fears and all of the things that I have on the outside how would you describe this artwork and there's a couple of unusual pieces and we'll be showing them in this video we'll be able to take images of these and put them up but describe some of the pieces that you've seen and there's a few unusual pieces but he has please yeah yeah so the particular artist that I'm speaking of painted a lot of nature scenes his his friend who had shared them with us was she's a scientist and so I she had sent him some photos of her trips with Arctic in particular and he painted those and it's really interesting it's a guy who had probably never left Florida right and he's painted these incredibly beautiful Arctic scenes any way to escape right yeah yeah um and you know other things might do you think we see a lot of artwork you see a lot of birds which I know you and I've talked about a little bit lots of birds we do see a lot of birds and so yeah yeah and who else can go over the wire right right um and you know some self-portrait I think there's always very interesting when you say interesting I often like to say that people use the word interesting when they either can't find the right words or there are words that they're not allowed to say in public so so when you just say that they're that you find self-portraits interesting what what's interesting about them yeah um you know and I joke like I have an aversion to psychodynamic therapy so I don't want to like it's too deep you know but um this isn't psychodynamics but I think I'm thinking of one piece in particular I've seen where um the individual had drawn you know beside of his face and his eye and right you know the black part of the center of his eye there was a reflection um of his cell and and that was really incredibly striking to me and there was a little tear in the corner um and this was someone who was not outwardly particularly emotional right and then we see this incredibly emotional and self-reflective piece of art that you know I think that it just goes to show that no one is one dimensional yeah right you know I think that um you're talking about a space and environment like we've said already that it's easier to kill somebody or to control them by taking away their identity and and objectifying them and what the self-portrait does is it it reminds us of the person and that even after they're gone there's still assemblance of who they are that remains and especially such a moving piece like that and then there is those unusual um sculptures that um that they're it's quite ingenious what they've created can you describe one of those yeah also there's you know many different types I think one there's like silk sculptures this is a silk sculpture is that awesome that's really cool but but yeah so tell me about some of the pieces that you've yeah so there's um you know I think we see a lot of paper sculptures unfolded paper and wrapped paper um and then I think the piece that you're probably referring to was a lighthouse yeah and that was um it's probably you know yay big um and was made by man who's actually executed towards the end of last year um but it is incredible because it has each individual brick was formed by toilet paper yeah in a little mold um and I I don't know exactly how he so the toilet paper was was placed in the mold and given that shape and that was the brick pattern and you had said something when we spoke about this so I'm not going to pretend that I'm hearing about this for the first time we didn't speak about this but you had indicated that mold had been passed around the the floor yeah yeah um you know I think there's a lot of you know as you know in person a lot of uh shared ingenuity yeah and often for good right I think that it's pretty hard to think to me at least to think of art in person as anything other than like I'm mitigated good right like this is people using the time yes people using their time productively um is is good and helps behavior and help safety in prisons and all of these things and um but yes it yes and it's interesting the lighthouse um I saw a picture of one and I have mentioned it to people and several other people have been like oh I have a lighthouse from him so he made many that's great I mean of course the whole symbolism of being a beacon and a face to land and find their way and but the ingenuity of it the ability to find basically make something out of nothing and the fact that they share the the mold around gives an entirely different image of what it's like inside particularly on on how we portray this notion of what death row is there's a real communal space it's a real communal environment and the art helps create those spaces yeah absolutely and you know yeah I think this idea of it being a community and we hear that often people say you know they get to death row and they're expecting it to be this like scary and isolating place and the first day they get there you know somebody is like hey do you need a coffee right um because they're all you know they're all in there and in Florida it seemed 250 men who were there together for the definite future right and a lot of them realized it could just better if we work together and you know have a community share um rather a day and having this be a hostile place to live because they're living there yeah how do you take care of yourself because that's a lot um I have really amazing friends I am truly fortunate I friends who don't work in the death penalty space or even in the criminal justice reform space which is wonderful to go and be with them and it's not something we really talk about um and my family is also great um and you know I work out I do make some art I do a lot of digital art do you yeah I love procreate I'm certainly not Picasso but I Picasso was in Picasso so I'm sorry um yes I definitely can and I think that's that's often very fun um just you know I think I am someone who tries to be really used driven and I think about like you know what kind of person do I want to be um and you know right now in my life I want to be someone who is doing meaningful work yeah um and so with that comes this understanding that like I have to take care of myself or to be sustainable good I am excited to announce of course I'm let you announce or give it to specifics but you have a big symposium coming up um and we're going to do some collaboration for that uh give us some details yeah so to be clear it's a symposium through the F.O.C. law school um but we are certainly uh supporting in terms of identifying speakers and and things like that and that's kind of how how we came together um but it is on international human rights and the death penalty and it'll be on November 13th so really exciting there's some great speakers sister Helen is actually going to be one of the speakers um and uh everyone when I say that feel like okay well be there one of the things that we'll be collaborating on is to do an art show specifically for those art pieces that were done on death row and will be in communication over the next few weeks hopefully with the Museum of Fine Arts here at FSU. Also on top of that we'll be doing our symposium March 4th through the 7th on the Arts Inside and we've already spoken about bringing some of those pieces as well for that big exhibition we'll be doing at the Museum of Fine Arts that Thursday evening. So we're very excited and the collaboration won't stop there and so as long as it's creating inside, as long as there's creative expression inside and we need to find a way out, we'll be working together on all of this. I'm so excited about future working together and your willingness to come here and person and share your stories. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Creativity Unconfined has been brought to you by Florida State University's Institute for Arts and Art Therapy with the Imprisoned. Special thanks to our producers Sydney Nichols and Melia Burrows as well as Florida State University's College of Fine Arts. If you like what you heard and even if you didn't, please support us by liking and subscribing.