Ep 19 And Another Final Girl Rises

*Music* Fear the final girl. Episode 19. Oh! That's me. *Laughter* I see. *Laughter* No, no, no. I made mistakes like this all the time before. So we just keep them in. And I look like an idiot. It's fine. Okay, okay. You try that again. Go again. *Laughter* We're off to a great start. Hello, it's another terrifying day on Fear the Final Girl, a podcast about horror, board games, and general mayhem. In this episode, we have a new podcast co-host. What? Let's learn about Julie and Evan together in ways we never knew we wanted. Listen to some board game hot takes, talk about the latest VanWriter games news, and answer some questions from our discord community. Who are we? Well, I'm your new co-host, Julie Aherne. And I am Evan Derrick. So, let's start with some news. What's happening in VanWriter games world, Evan? What's going on? Before we get to that, I would just like to say something. Yeah. I have known you, how many years have I known you, Julie? I mean. First time I met you was at Dice Tower when we played a greekola at like one in the morning. One in the morning, and we were both falling asleep. And we were. And it's amazing because we were like exactly the same age. How time has never changed. So like seven, eight, nine, ten years, something like that. It's been a minute. Yeah. Okay. And we've worked together for four years. Four years now? I know. Okay. So, up until this moment right now, I clearly did not know how to pronounce your last name. Nobody does. It's fine. Would you say it again? A hern. I have never. Okay. So everybody says A hern because we're in America. But my grandfather was Irish and still had the Irish lillth, the broke as it were. So, and when I taught, I would say my name is Miss A hern. It rhymes with learn. Okay. So there you go, everybody out there. That's how you pronounce my name, but it's totally fine if you don't. Well, we're all learning something new, including me apparently. My co-host, Julie A hern. Yeah, that's me. Okay. We were about to talk about what's been going on at VRG. Yeah. So you are a new co-host. I am. What happened to our last co-host? I wish she's. She's okay. It's all right. She's fine. But me is currently, I believe, outfitting an entire bed and breakfast and board game cafe. So she is understandably quite busy and is unable to host any longer. But our loss is also our gain because now we get Julie. Sure. We'll go with that. I'll take it. Yeah. So, between foster and the people, she's just, her plate was very full and she's done a lovely job. So I have very large combat boot she's to fill as a follow-final girl. So this episode of "Fair the Final Girl" is a bit of a bridge episode as we transition from what the podcast used to be into what it's going to be. Which we're going to be making some changes and we're going to be trying some things out. But just treat this, treat this maybe the next podcast, maybe the next few. Enjoy the roller coaster that is the process. As kind of temporary where we try on our new C-legs. So our new, our new Jamie-Lis C-legs. But we've got some big stuff going on right now. At the point when you are listening to this, our Kickstarter for series 4, "Final Girl" will be over. But as we are recording this, we are in the last 48 hours. Which is very exciting. It's always an exciting time. It's very exciting. We are hoping to beat our previous record, which was 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. I think, which is the highest crowdfunding record for a solo-only board game ever. So, we're hoping to take the crown from ourselves. And put it on our head again. But hopefully. Yeah, that's always the goal. You want to deal with better every time. Yeah. Of course. The idea. But it'd be fun to say, "Haha, we are once again the most funded solo-only board game ever in crowdfunding." So, but we are considering this. But, yes. So, that's happening. But also, there's been all this news and buzz about it being the end of an era. So, Evan, what is this end of an era business? The end of the era is. It's a little fuzzy. Honestly. It's even a little fuzzy for us. But what it amounts to is that the way we have produced and created "Final Girl" up to this point has been making these giant ultimate boxes and doing these huge kick starters with all of these extras. And it has built into everything a certain kind of expectation. So, now players understandably so, always expect us to add like the same kind of promo we added the past and do the same kind of campaigns. And expect the same kind of things. And it has placed us in a position where we're really kind of hamstrung when it comes to innovating or doing new things. Because we're. Right. Because it's exciting to do "Create Final Girl" but then when. Yeah, like the first time you're like, "Yeah, that's awesome." And then the second time you're like, "Okay, I have to do the same thing again." That gets frustrated, yeah. I think that. I think the best way to think of it is similar to what Marvel and DC do. Like, every once in a while, their whole canon and all of their universes become so complicated as they have decades of like, "Oh, so-and-so died." And then was reborn as so-and-so and on this planet Earth or whatever. And then DC's like, "It's too much. We're just gonna wipe it all and start with the new 42." Are you. Are you explaining why the multiverse is necessary at this? Yes. Is that weird? I'm more just comparing us to DC and Marvel, you know, clearly. We're just a big advantage. But we are essentially trying to level set everything and give ourselves some flexibility in the future, which is what Arrow 2 is gonna be. So we have some ideas about what we're gonna do in Arrow 2, but it's on. We're not entirely sure. I think a lot of it's gonna be as we go and things we wanna make, but we wanted to clearly end Arrow 1 now so that we can begin fresh in our customers, in our fans, in everybody who loves Final Girl, will have their expectations set. So they're not super disappointed when we don't do something that we've always done before. Anyway, so. So, right. Now, of course, the big question that everybody on Discord is asking is, "What is in Arrow 2?" And what you're telling us, Evan, is the beauty of it is it hasn't even been made yet anything could happen. Yes. Arrow 2 currently exists in our whole team's somewhat dreamlike subconscious, but primarily AJ and my dreamlike subconscious, where there's a whole bunch of ideas festering in there, but who knows what's gonna come out on the other end. And so, and I say that, it's not that it's up like Slate. There's been plenty of over the years of wouldn't it be cool if we could? Yes. And us being like, "We can't do that right now. We are already on this track." So, a lot of it, we can't really give, or sneak peeks, yes. Because it's. you get to try them. You have to say, "Okay, I've always wanted to try this, but we have to try it." And then be like, "Wow, this is amazing. We're whole no, this is why we've never done this." So, that's the challenge of not, you don't want to say something, because again, that forces you in the position of people getting their expectation set and not, and then feeling disappointed if we're like, "We're definitely going to have. " I can't say anything, but we can. "Malasses dripping over everything." I don't know. You can't have that. No, we did. That's been very frustrating for us, not to be able to drip molasses all over everything. We wanted to just ship everybody molasses jars that they could then personally pour over themselves and their games, but it's not. You know, we've just been high-em strunk, but era 2, wide open baby. And I can't fully imagine the replacement part emails. So, okay, all right, all right, so we're not getting the full answers. we probably some people some of our listeners want but at least we have an explanation of why they're on it yet and know that it is coming but What else have we got going on? Well, we have our new hit game and Amazin lovers is back in stock on our website. It was out of it was sold out for a while But it's also now in Barnes and Noble. It's in books a million. It's on Amazon. It's so It's based on Holly Black's best selling New York Times best selling series the Elfheim the world of Elfheim found the Velfing it's based on that and It's an awesome game and it's back in stock so if you missed it before you can get it now. Yep, he has to can and also I finished just finished recording the how to play and then Jonesy and I Played a playthrough of it so you can go watch those two on our website. Yes Jonesy being Josh Jones are social media Community manager Dude It's a heck of a time. Yes Final dad. Final dad if you're if you're familiar with that. It was final dad for a while. If you're in our discord server You're you're very familiar already with Jonesy and also coming soon is Detective City of Angels new expansion heist and her break so that will be out relatively soon after this releases so I believe it's already in our It is in the warehouse that we are sending it to the people who pre-ordered it first so it isn't out there so quite yet. And if you want to see us in person what conventions are we going to in the near future? I don't know why I'm asking you that since I think I'm going to them. As Right, I am not going you've you've mentioned a few of them there in our little show notes and I'm not going to them. I'm not going to gamma. I'm not going to diced our west but I am. So gamma being a trade show but diced our west is in Las Vegas. I'm not going to be there in a couple of weeks and I will be there running games in the their demo hall so we won't have a booth there for sale. I am literally just going to be there to play games and talk to people and say hi. So if you go to the demo hall look for van writer games banner. It'll be me. Please come say hi if you are going to dice to our west and then also Tennessee game days. Would you will be yes. I will be at Tennessee game days again. Here's a whole bunch of very specific conventions and industry one. One out in Las Vegas and one just here in Tennessee. Yeah more regional ones. So then they're not the big huge ones but if you are local to either of those regions and have the ability come say hi. Yes, that would be great. All right. So our first segment here is going to be called a little thing called board game hot take and normally this is going to be their interview section. So if we have a guest we will interview them. So in future episodes what we'll do is interview other people and look into their heart of darkness. And what do I mean by that I mean we want to hear their convictions and find out how strong or loosely they hold them. And what is their hot kind of a hot take and to learn you know where they stand on certain things in the board game industry. And this can be a serious or as silly as you want. Of course we don't encourage anybody saying anything cruel in a hot take. This is something in the board games that you feel strongly about. So Evan please introduce yourself just for the sake of the practice of doing this because obviously it would be usually an interview person. But who are you in the board and who are you in the bill or board game industry. I'm sure our audience will definitely wants to hear yet again who I am. I'm Evan Derrick. I am the chief creative officer at Van Ryder games. I am the co designer of final girl. I'm the designer of detective city of angels both games that we publish. And I've been in this industry for 10 15 years now something like that. So yeah about that 15 years or so. So yeah. So that's that's who I am. Excellent. What Evan is your board game hot take and be prepared to defend it. I'm going to like this one. My board game hot take is the most influential game board game slash card game of the last 15 years is can you guess what I'm about to say. I terrified what is it. I thought you might say that expand. So if you go into any retail store now Walmart target Barnes and Noble any of those you will see a giant section of games which are kind of the new hip party games. A lot of them come in these little rectangular boxes what's your meme you know cards against humanity and you know exploding kittens all of this stuff all of them I believe stem from what cards against humanity did now I personally don't love cards against humanity. It's kind of a nasty little mean game but and it's also basically just an adult rip off of apples apples so in and of itself I don't find cards against humanity particularly innovative or anything. But as a product I don't think anything has been copied or aped as much exploding kittens essentially is an entire company that exists because cards against humanity paved the way for it these little box games with simple rules that hipsters and new people can just see on the shelf and grab and they're quick and easy to play it's like this I don't even know what you call the genre exactly but it's like that there are tons of them now in fact I think it must be one of the fastest growing segments in gaming yes you see entire companies springing up just making these little dinky party games that sell like wildfire. Yes I don't disagree with you I don't want to agree with you yeah and I but I you know and I'd have to I analytically I don't know if there is anything out there because the only other thing I could think of is magic the gathering but that's not that's even older so I think yeah it's also it's you're right I think cards against humanity is a different. It leans more towards board the board games fear than a collectible card game so yeah if you're talking about in our sphere of and yes it's mass market versus hobby and everything but yeah I think I think you're right and they are so big I know for a fact I've had I had a friend who applied for a job that she does data analysis from major corporations and she was looking at a job where they wanted to hire somebody to do the where they have the full on video people playing that has the computer analytics of your visual like analyzing people's reactions to touch to show what where people showed excitement where they showed boredom for the what questions they ask so they've gotten it to that point alright like sure it cards against humanity so it is a big business if you can if you can afford that you're you're making a happy chunk of change so I can't disagree with you on it I just I'm not happy about agreeing with you on that hot take I'm sad the the follow up would be a zombie side when zombies side debuted on Kickstarter it I mean halfway through the campaign wasn't doing well and then you know what they introduced stretch goals you know they did little promo stretch goals and it it completely I mean fundamentally altered the board game published hobby board game publishing landscape for forever I mean we currently aren't to know what Kickstarter started a week before is on the side no you're about to tell me oh is it Z apocalypse it sure was oh Julie if only Z apocalypse could have been the actual zombie based board game that changed the industry no it wasn't and we didn't know I just found it hilarious because it was already it like while they it was their first board game on Kickstarter they were an established company they've been around for eight years by the time they did a Kickstarter focusing on the chairs but still and so I found it hilarious that we kept getting asked compare ourselves to the zombies and we were like, thank you so much for putting us in that same sphere. We appreciate that. But yes, I think yes, that was the, that was the, what do you want to say, the crucible of when you saw the Kickstarter become a massive factor in board game publishing and change the landscape of board game publishing it all. So I agree with that one too. There's a big argument to be made that the van writer games and final girl, you know, as it exists now wouldn't even be what it is without zombieside. So 100%. All right, so I have two questions for you. That, so not the superficial questions. Okay, we're going to dig a little bit deeper. Here's your first one. All right, so you've worn a number of hats in your career in board games, let me know when I'm talking pre-bore games, but in board games you've worn a lot of them. By the way, I have no idea what you're about to ask me. No, you don't. But before you were working in the industry, I want to talk about a fan project you did, which is the graphic redesign of advanced civilization. Robert put you up to this. I just know a lot about it because of him. Listen, just because you know my sources. So you put up a free printout, a re-graphic redesign of advanced civilization, a BGG, which is, you know, subsequently is not there anymore. But in your current position, where one of your roles in Van Rader Games is to work on art direction and hire people to do things like graphic design, how do you feel about that Evan and that Evan putting up content like that that was free and then was, you know, for people to have free? Does it still resonate with you? That guy who did a lot of work to share with the working community? Or do you think, "Oh, that poor sucker these days. How do you feel about him?" Oh, I mean, I think that person I was then is just the same person I am now. It's just that back then I had another job I was working that was crushing my soul. So I did this instead and lots of people, I mean lots of people put out did graphic redesigns of things and so it was just that there was something about that really appealed to me and it was honestly one of the first ways I scratched the itch of understanding game design especially from a visual standpoint because I, because advanced civilization is a game that's from the late 70s. Well, there was, there's civilization and then they made an updated version called Advanced Civilization and so. But at this point when you were doing it it was a bit out of print for a very long time so it was very hard to get. Since then they've done what is it the mega-save so you can purchase it again. Yeah, so yes it was totally out of print but it was this game that was well regarded so I knew that if I did a redesign of it made it look prettier a lot of people get excited about it and it would also get a little bit of attention. I've never been one that just likes to create and avoid when I create I like to create so that other people will be interested in it so I'm always thinking about things that like oh I want to make this and I am making it for myself but I'm also want to make sure that it's going to be of some kind of interest to other people. So but really that game doing that taught me a lot and eventually but what I do now is really no different. I create and think through how to present games and how to make them look so that people will enjoy them. I just don't do that stuff anymore because I did all that for free and and now I thankfully get paid for it but the last thing I want to do after spending eight hours a day creating board games and doing graphic design for board games is go home and continue to do graphic design for board games. That is not what I want to do so I don't do obviously don't do that kind of stuff anymore. And the reason Robert knows about it is he used those files and made a copy of it for that was at the Jack Basel Memorial Fund fundraiser. So it raised money for the Jack Basel Memorial Fund somebody bid on it and won it and I think it's compacted you at this point but at the time that's what he was using for us. So he was working on his prototyping skills. Yeah. You were doing graphic design skills. He was doing prototyping skills. I did I did now Robert who by the way people don't know Robert is Julie's husband Robert is also the president of Arcane Wonders so he's also involved in the industry but Robert has a unhealthy obsession with perfectionism is that or healthy I guess you know what he's just a perfectionist. He's a perfectionist and his and his who he is. I don't know. He's just a perfectionist. He has a perfectionist streak when it comes to creating prototypes. I used to also have a perfectionist street when it came to creating prototypes and mine were I mean really really really nice when I made copies till I met Robert and he's the only person who's made nicer prototypes than me that I've ever met. Which is high price. Okay so my second question is before there was final girl and before there was Detective City of Angels there was Dark Moon which was published in 2011 by Stronghold. Yes. Now really quick it's a game that is you're on an interplanetary mining corporation and things are breaking down and you have to fix them but of course it's actually hidden roleplay where some people are infected and are actually trying to destroy the ship or the space station. Space station. Strong. And then other people are trying to get through and complete the the four timeline moments that come out and survive the duration of the time before the infected people destroy it. So it's for three to seven players. Yes. When what what levers what levers are you pulling comparing contrast for me doing a game that's for four three to seven players versus a solo final girl game. What's what's the differences or what or what's the same about it in your design process. Well I mean it's a difference between designing a multiplayer game versus designing a solo game. You design a solo game you can test it yourself and I mean it's a lot simpler in a way mainly because you do not have to put other bodies and seats to figure out how your game plays. Dark Moon is a is a psychological manipulation but trail game and so it requires I mean as the fuel that runs the game is other players you know acting duplicitously and it's very it's impossible to accurately simulate that by yourself. What you fools me. Just from a play testing and design standpoint you know play testing something like dark moon is is is a lot more complicated requires you know getting people schedules together and testing with different groups and all this all this kind of stuff so when it comes to solo designing I much more appreciate that. As to why dark moon was three to seven it just we were fortunate enough that I was fortunate enough that it just worked with seven. It certainly wasn't my design goal initially but we could scale up the players and not increase the play time so similar to seven wonders seven wonders really doesn't go any slower with seven people unless you get that one person who's like a kind of a cog that gets stuck but it's a game that scales very well. I take the time I need. So dark moon thankfully you know ideally the best player count is five ideally but it works well with seven and it works with three two so that was just that was a happy accident honestly. Follow question do you feel like Stronghold was so enamored with the theme that you're part of the reason that terrifying Mars is the success it is. You know what I would love to take responsibility for that except I know that I know personally know the guy who was running Stronghold at the time Stephen Bonacore and that was not in his calculus at all. I too know Stephen Bonacore and no but it's still funny and I'm still gonna bring it up with him the next time I see him or talk to him. Stephen was very good at grabbing a whole bunch of different designs throwing them all at the wall and seeing what stuck because you know oftentimes you don't even know what's gonna be popular or not and so yeah dark moon was one of those. performing Mars was one of those. One of them did a little teensy bit better than the other one. But. All right, so that was me interviewing you. So I believe it is my turn now. Aha. Okay. Julie, are you ready for your challenging question? My challenging questions, yes. Okay. So first one you have. But first, first. I introduced myself. Oh, you got you get to do your hot take first. Okay. So. It's like there's a whole form of everything. Julie, what is your hot take? Well, first introducing myself. I'm Julie, which so I also work a van writer games as well as being a final girl that you can a character you can play in the final girl realm. And currently I'm doing a lot of the running the convention part of the company. But I've also gotten to do a little bit of design of final girl stuff and also creative director for some of the other games of detectives, it's a high-senharm break expansion, things like that. And my hot take is for new designers because one of the roles that I have done over the years is be the person who listens to pitches. I did that for Greenbrier. I did a little bit for van writer, but I've also I think because I was a teacher before I was in board games. I get asked to do a lot of feedback for new designers. I think because I have a good I do the compliment fan, which really well the boat. Here's what I'd like to bet it. Here's what you need to work on and with a positive thing. But your game sucks, but I'm not going to totally crush your dreams. Okay, so it's not necessarily your game sucks. The concept might be great. The math isn't there yet. Whatever. A bigger red flag than the game not being good is so many new designers and it's their first design. So many. I've seen so many because a lot of people they have that one idea and they're just trying to get it out of their head exercise that out of their brains and have it and make it a real thing. And it's the one thing, but it's it's a hard thing for a lot of people and they just it's theirs and it's precious and they don't want to let it go. And so they work on it and they work on it and they work it over and they work it over. And they can't. So they bring it to a publisher, but they don't actually want a publisher to publish it because the publisher's going to make changes that they don't have to control over. Do not, if you are a new designer and you want to pitch your game or you think you want to pitch your game, my hot take is do not pitch it until you have a second game designed. Don't do it. Have have more than one. You learn, you know, that first one is it's kind of the burnt pancake. You get to do a lot of mistakes and learn a lot of new things and it might be good and might not. It's going to be precious to you. It's not going to be nearly as precious to anybody else. And that's a hard heart that's much harder to learn than it is. I think even to work on the design itself. So until you come up with a second one where you can learn from the first one and do something different, but also not feel so and hold so tight onto that first design. Don't pitch it. That's my hot take. That's pretty good advice. Nothing. I get no pushback on that. No, you get zero pushback on that. I mean, let's see, I pitched my first game when I didn't have a second one designed. So, but I quickly had a second one designed and found out that the second one was crap. I got lucky in that my first one was good enough to get published. And then that gave me the false impression that I was a genius in this game design thing. I could just whip them out. I remember talking to my friend Steven Glenn, who is another designer. And I was just like, I'm going to design a game of three weeks. He was just like, uh-huh, sure. I was like, it's not that hard. And I did design a game in three weeks and it was crap. So. All right. I, regardless, if you had done two, it gives you a better sense of like, like a band. They're first band. You know, a lot of bands. They're first band, their first album is amazing because they've spent all this time working on it than the second one, Falls Flat. I'm saying, you need that perspective. You need the perspective and you need to not, if you're going to try to pitch it, have a second game going. Yeah. Okay. So that's my hot take now. Oh, now your questions. You want your difficult questions. Okay. Julie. So you have three cats. Correct. Okay. What are their names? Again, I know. That's the question. Matthew Annie and. No, no, no, I didn't know. Where do the other? I couldn't remember. So, Macy is my cat and I am her human. Yes. Also Annie and Leo, who are perfectly delightful cats, but not nearly as enamored with me. Okay. Well, this question's not going to work really well. Then so, Macy, Annie and Leo, if you had to Sophie's choice and just choose. That's Macy. It's Macy. It's Macy. Yeah. Okay. That was supposed to be a really difficult question. Any other time in my life, Macy came along. That would have been, I have had cats over the entire year of my adult life. My parents aren't pet people. And I was. So pretty much the second I got my own apartment in college. I had a cat. That was Inneca. And I've had a couple of strays that have come and gone. I've found homes for re-homed because I was young and moving around a lot and couldn't afford to feed vet bills for. So I would, I was unofficially a foster. A cat foster owned and then had Inneca until she was 22. So, but they were all, but even her. She was my roommate who got into Habitat for Humanity in right after college. It's cat. And so she just was like, "Hey, I'm leaving. She's with you now. Bye." So I've never had my cats. I've had cats. And I've enjoyed them and I've cared for them. But they've all been cool. But Macy is my cat and I am her human. And it is a very unhealthy relationship that I'm really, really grateful for. Well, sorry, Annie and Leo, if Julie is ever forced to choose between you. Oh, straight up Annie is going to die because Annie's Annie will jump. When we first got her, she would jump behind the stove and just sit there like, well, I guess I'm here now until the end of time. And you start to move the oven just like shake it a little and she could jump back out. But she wouldn't unless she actually scared her to jump back out. So she would have just like perished behind the stove. I mean, that's my favorite place to hang out is boxed stove. So I can't get close to her. She is not, she's not, she's so pretty. Let's just leave it at that. She's so pretty. And Leo is Robert's cat. Leo loves Robert because Robert gives him garbage food. Okay, second question. Hopefully this is more interesting than the first. So tell me your, we can start with least favorite. Tell me your least favorite thing about being a woman in the board game industry and your favorite thing about being a woman in the board game industry. All right, my least favorite, I mean, I'm going to re, I'm going to rephrase that a little. Okay, I think the most challenging thing about being a woman in the industry, I don't know if it's my least favorite thing because I like a challenge is the fact that, you know, casual misogyny does exist. Institutional misogyny does exist. And even, even well-intentioned people and let's face it, that's personal bias exists because humans are humans. And we could get into like animal behaviorism and how mammals form their own tribes and why that is on a biological level and I'm not going to go that far. So it's not, it's not that I don't understand why it exists. But being on a constant receiving end of it as a low, I don't know, you know, the, the, the, the, water wheel of just slights that happen, that have happened your whole life, is exhausting in some ways. It's also I like the challenge of proving when I am under my expectations aren't as high to prove somebody wrong. I enjoy that. So I do like that challenge. I wish it didn't exist. But that's you know long time ago my first origins I was demoing Z-Pocalypse and selling it and I was by myself. I had a table by myself in a tiny little what is the like the five by five like one table. Yeah and you could buy it. So I had a couple cases of Z-Pocalypse and me and my next door neighbor would watch my table if I had to like run and grab a coffee or something and that was it. I was the only one there. And I had somebody who had clearly been in the industry for a long time come over and ask a bunch of questions about the game and demo a couple rounds of it and then say well I mean I'm gonna buy it because you have a nice rack. He met my boobs folks. Those of you who don't understand. I'm just gonna be blunt about that. So an in that moment I could have focused on being a woman and defending myself or being a game publisher and I chose game publisher and I said you can buy it for whatever reason you want you're gonna play it because it's an awesome game and I took his money and I sent him on his way. And so for me the challenge is always asking well what am I like where where is that line and that's the challenge for me. I try to be a game publisher first because I feel like I prove that I am just that my qualifications are just as good if I put that first. So that is my I guess you could say my least favorite but most challenging. My favorite part of being the board game industry is that there's so few people like that and there's so many awesome people and getting who are you know like the people in our discord are amazing. The people I get to who are peers and colleagues I get to talk to so many creative interesting human beings who are from all parts of the world who have all different backgrounds and different opinions and who I get to see all those different creative ideas and I don't have to agree with everybody but I get to see where their perspectives are and I think that I have a much wider understanding of the world because of it and I love that so I love that part of it and I love getting to be a part of it ensuring my creative ideas with other people because of it. Those were lovely responses. Good that yes that was much more interesting than the first one. So we've talked a little bit about our fans and a lot of them are on discord and we love them and they love us but it's also chaos in there and I've opened the floor to having them ask us and then some questions that they would like answered. I love seeing what the unwashed masses are curious about. I'm sorry discord I know that you're very hygienic. It's just a phrase. Yeah. So the first question is from the Quinn and Alan show question what bear is best? What bear is best? I'm gonna go with gummy bear. Okay real question. Oh I didn't know there was a right or wrong answer okay. Oh got it. The actual question from the Quinn and Alan show. What inspires creativity when coming up with backgrounds, settings, final girls? Horror movies obviously have a lot of influence but is there anything else that inspires you when you're doing final girl creative design? At this juncture I think horror movies and that kind of stuff is still maybe the genesis of a lot of the ideas but now what is really important is how it's gonna work mechanically and I think that that's where a lot of inspiration comes from is finding a horror movie or a horror concept or an idea that is that we can represent in the game in a way that's interesting that we haven't done before. So we've talked about this before I've said this a lot of times it's like you know so for example Hans is kind of our stand-in for like the classic slasher like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers and so we'll have some people say like oh do you know do Michael Myers do Michael Myers and it's like mechanically he's exactly the same like Hans works like that there's nothing there's nothing else to explore. I think part of the reason sometimes we don't do some of the things that people have suggestions it isn't that we haven't thought of it or don't think it's an idea it's that because it we've already kind of covered it mechanically in a way that we think it would be do its service has already been done so I agree with that that some of the reasons we don't do some of the ideas that have of cool things is that and I think you're right I think it goes hand in hand a good example of that to me was crampus and not specifically crampus but the elves the elves being so helpful and never wanting to leave that we must save Santa was so felt so thematic but also made it such it makes it such an obnoxious game like gameplay in the best way but still you're like just leave and they don't want to they they love you that they never want to go that's a great example of a fairly simple rule like Santa's village really doesn't is like incredibly rules light and basically the only rule is that the elves you know will basically grab onto you and not right they will not leave you alone and they steal all your time because they're just annoying you and holding on to you and stuff and so it's a very very simple rule but it actually changes the feel and have to open the presence well that's yeah yeah yeah the opening the presence is tied to crampus and then the elves are tied to Santa's village so but yeah the simple rules that really change how the game works so but yeah I get I get slapped for creating the more complex feature films and and so sometimes I'll like go overboard in it I'm lying we've talked about a lot like killer from tomorrow is widely you know hammered as being the most comp one of the most complex ones and I designed that in some ways it's too complex but like I just kept throwing things in that you know like represent it with my friends green terror yeah green tears also very don't don't say no it's also super complicated listen if you don't like complicated go somewhere else but I or play once upon a minute which I decided is very simple play one of the simple ones so yeah I think there's a lot of inspiration that we derive from how something is gonna work mechanically that we haven't seen before I agree I think also though we spend a lot of time so you know as a company we're working as a company but we have a lot of fun stuff art thrown at like we all contribute like and do different things and talk about what fills each of our cups and take time to do that every week I think you know you know Josie was just talking about like yesterday was Twin Peaks Day in when we were recording this and so we had a little riff on stuff about Twin Peaks so like we we have in each of us has our own little keep-dums and fandoms and we all bring that in so we're also having our own creative conversation that is super fun and I think collectively fills each other's cups in a way that so you can't really say it's one thing I think all of us talking make a thematic creative super that everybody dips into everyone's the wow yeah second question which is staying on the theme and you're going to fight back, but which of your, which is your favorite final girl or killer narratively and not mechanically? Narratively and not mechanically. Yeah. A lot of time. And that one is from JG. A lot of times the mechanics inform the theme. So I guess if I just had to pick like my favorite theme. I really, I really, really like, um, I really like shriek and I like mort a lot. So I think that that's probably my favorite from the theme standpoint. And that like, um, we just really got that we really baked the whole meta aspect into it. I think really well. And that mort is I think dressing up like final girl killers at a convention. You don't know who it is. And so from a theming standpoint, I just, I just, I thought that we were able to implement that, really well and really successfully. It very much feels, it feels, it feels unique in that sense. Of course, it's also designed it and it is also fairly complex. So you take that, take that for what it is. What about you, Julie? What's your favorite, um, thematically? Thematically? Interesting. I would say, I was preparing everything else except my answer. I think the tormentor. I think thematically because mechanically it's more about the, um, in that one, it's not necessarily that she's the, right, yes. Um, but thematically, I very much enjoy the art that was done, the look of it, the feel of the tension, whereas mechanically, there's not a, there isn't a lot. Yeah. It's more about the room. It's more about the warehouse. So I would say if we're talking about narratively, I can come up with stories for what's happening behind the scenes, that the tormentors are just set up terrible things, rather than the actual things reacting to the mechanics that are happening. Yeah. So that would be probably mine if you're talking about a narrative. Yeah, that was a good, that was a close second for me. So nice. Oh, look at us on the same wavelength, some pataco. Um, and then I already kind of, my second one would have been grapist, though, because I love the, I love the mythology of anti-Santa's in general, because, you know, in many European cultures, Santa Claus was just the good and you didn't have a naughty or nice list. You just had a anti-Santa who was a terrible monster. And I like all the anti-Santa's. I'm a big fan of all of them, because so when my grandparents are Italian heritage, so first generation, um, immigrate immigrants and we, we occasionally, there were several times that somebody just got cool and they're stalking and that was it. Which is what Bafana does. You don't, you don't get toys or presents. You're stalking. You get so open presents, but you're stalking specifically. She just puts cool and that did happen sometimes. That reminds me without mercy. That's hilarious. That reminds me. I grew up in China. Actually, I moved over to China when I was 12, lived there from when I was 12 to 18 and I went to a Chinese public school. This would have been in like 1993. You're god I'm old. But one of the things they would do is they would announce the test scores in front of the class. I don't know. I don't know if they do that anymore, but back then the culture was, I mean, and then everybody would laugh, like publicly laugh at the kids that got low test scores. It was kind of rough. Public shaming. Public shaming. One time, it teaches you different skills. One time I didn't get the best score in English class and they all widely mocked me. See, the problem was, is that it was all built off British English. So I like misspelled, like color or something. They were all laughing at me and I was like, those pesky extra you. I tried to explain to them. No, no, no, no, no, no, you can't spell color this way. And the teacher was like, no, Evan, you have spelled it wrong. And I was like, fine, whatever. Anyway, fun, fun side note, goals and stockings and announcing test scores in front of classes for public shaming. So friends, I think we've reached the end of today's podcast. That's all we have for today. And thank you for listening. Fear the Final Girl is produced by Evan, Julie, and with assistance from the team at VanWriter Games, you can find us online on Facebook, Instagram and at our website, www.vanwritergames.com. Until next time, stay safe and always carry your ultimate weapon. Bye bye! [Music]