Ep 189: MALWARE. The State of Social Media with Lydia Pang, Co-founder of MØRNING

- Malware is a non-technical look at the tech news of the week. - This is a podcast where we learn together about everything from crypto to AI to whatever comes next in tech. I'm Natasha Hoskins. - I'm Deena Burke. - And this is Boys Club. - Wait, is it just Boys Club? - It's just Boys Club. - The Boys Club podcast? - No, no. Just Boys Club. - We have a very special malware here. - We do. - Go ahead. - Give it up. - You give it up. (laughing) - We talked with Lydia Peng, who is the founder of Morning Agency. If you don't know Morning. - Morning.app. - Morning.app. - Yeah. - Very, very creative thinkers and doers and our marketing agency and work with very, very grand. And anyway, she's just like someone who is really smart and really creative and a thinker for sure, but also executes on stuff and has a lot of in the trenches experience that she pulls on for her insights. It's not just like think boy stuff. - Totally. - I really appreciate that about her. - Yeah, here are some brands that they work with, just to level set. Bumble, Everlane, Facebook, Metta, Jordan, Instagram, Marjella, Nike, Snapchat. So just to give you some context for how legitimate this person is. - Yeah. - And the type of work that they do. And what I really loved about this conversation is basically morning, put out a report on the state of social media, we talked to Lydia about it. And she builds a case for exactly what boys club is. So I feel really great about the interview. (laughs) And very excited about the future of social media, this future of the internet. And I think we talk a lot about the future of the internet and oftentimes we're in the tech stack around it. And it was really nice to have a conversation around like how that stack of decentralization of small community first projects of people being able to build and create their own brands and economies and applications in a more intimate way is not only what she thinks the future is, but also like necessary to keep the internet fun and kind and interesting. And it's really nice to see all the things that we talk about in web through all the time that I'm like, sort of banging my head against the wall, I mean like what are we doing here with all of this? To be like, oh, I can kind of see it all kind of sort of coming together in a way that someone as cool and aesthetically aware as the team at morning is thinking about. And that was really really encouraging for me personally. - It was a great conversation, so I hope you enjoy. - Hey Natasha, so a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, you know, I look for a secure no-fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. - If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24/7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out the simple secure way to trade crypto, go to kraken.com/boysclub. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves VSKV loss and is offered to US customers through Payward Interactive Inc. - We're here with Lydia Payne. Welcome to the show Lydia. - Hi, so happy to be here. - We're so happy to have you. Friend of the pod, friend of the boys. We're gonna be talking to you about the state of social media today. It's a big topic. - Spicey. - Spicey. - Spicey. - So, morning, your agency released a report called the State of Social earlier this month. It is kind of an overview, a look at internet culture and kind of a social media audit. The report is in three parts. So the first part outlines where things are now, it reflects on the algorithmic flattening of culture, echo chambers, things like feed fatigue. I think we topics that we talk about, think about love to talk about a lot. So excited to jump into that. And then it goes into really your call to action, which is about this idea of rewilding the web and reclaiming digital freedom and creativity and ending with some suggestion. So just spiritually so aligned and so excited to chat with you about it. - You too, honestly. When we were writing this, I was literally thinking about you guys. I feel like it is so the kind of thing I feel like we've chatted about overwind. So I'm happy to be having this conversation now. - Yeah, it's great. So is there anything you want to share more about the report, give a little bit more context readers, anything we missed on sort of that high level overview? - No, only that morning we believe more broadly that the web is like this beautiful tool for good. We are definitely the optimists that see the study side of the digital hellscape we all live in. And I suppose the report was set about to give brands a space to see themselves inside that new reality for social, which has become, I think for brands a real space of great fear and they're conscious of their role in content pollution so forth from like apology posts to like black squares or brands attempting to be do-meer and mindful in newsletters is like tough for them. And so as a brand consultancy and a strategy agency, we really wanted to set brands free and give them an opportunity to like play and deepen their law, but also be additive and stop littering the internet with shit to the benefit of culture and to the benefit of this beautiful place that we all love. So yeah, it's very much, I mean our company motto and mission is be less shit, which is about incremental change. And so I do feel like there's a responsibility in like educating brands on ways to be better online to the benefit of culture broadly. So yeah, that was kind of like, I suppose the macro ambition of it. - So you're an optimist, which is so interesting to hear you say that because, like for two reasons, one, because you're the aesthetics and sort of the visual direction of, first of all, is incredible. - It's so good. - And so good. - And so good. And you guys do an expert job at like, not only one have like identified this cool, very fresh, very different way of like the goss kind of dark stuff that you do, but also like always nail it. And so there's just consistency that, I mean, you're an expert at it. And that's evidenced by the work that you do for your brand. But I also think like there's, there's something in both the brand expression and also in this report, which is like, it's dark, it is dark. There's a lot of dark stuff that's happening. And to be an optimist in the face of that, like really takes something, I think it's something that we try and do a boys club as well. Like there's a lot of darkness in the industries that we look at all the time. And like we make a choice. It's a deliberate choice to try and remain optimistic about like how the good parts of this technology can impact our lives. So I'd love for you to talk more about like, that optimism and when it might take for you to like cultivate it every day. Yeah, that's such a beautiful question because it comes down to like a real like root in my personality and mourning is such an extension of my philosophy and belief. So I mean, Godth inherently is about seeking beauty in darkness. That is actually the philosophy. And so mornings aesthetic and point of view, although seemingly nihilistic or dystopian is very much about carving space for truth. And so if you're not coated in saccharine falsity, you're looking at dead in the eye, which means you can see the light very clearly. Is that Leonard Cohen that they're like, you can see the cracks of light in the darkness only? And I feel like our outlook and our aesthetic is holding space for that. The fact that it's about, you know, it isn't ugly. It isn't pretty, it is ugly. And that seeing that and looking that in the eye and acknowledging that we exist in the belly of the beast is way more cathartic and freeing because then we have space to ascend and choose to your point, the internet we want to create. Because I'm not in the business of like being stagnant in toxic positivity or hope. I feel like that's like soft and potentially slow. I like the idea of this brutalism and acknowledgement, which feels quite punk and positive. And so it's very much tethered to my identity in how I approach the world and business. But then yeah, the report is very much about, look, we've got all these reports out there that are seemingly going to save us and explain social. But that just feels like it's a soup of like the same information asking us all to do more and be more. And I kind of wanted this report to be a call to action to marinate and perhaps do less. And so yeah, hopefully that answered your question. - I love that. It really aligns with, I'm reading this book by this Buddhist nun right now that's so good. It's called "When Things Fall Apart" for people who are interested. And I knew nothing about Buddhism before reading this book, but one of the things that the book talks about and sort of as central to the Buddhist practice is this idea that hopelessness is actually a good thing. - Exactly. - And that is so aligned with what you're saying. And that like in the act of meditation and noticing and holding all the things in your life that there's something that is really, that contentment comes from that and kindness for yourself and others come from that noticing. And I think when you think about the internet and the type of person that I want to be online and the type of internet that I want to see, it's very much aligned with that idea of like, I love the internet, but I want to be cognizant of what I'm consuming on it. - Right, that's so beautiful that you bring Buddhism up because I feel like rewilding principles and then also this concept of chaos and darkness was very much our like, it was almost like, ah, that's what it is. Like chaos is rebirth. And in Chinese philosophy, in fact, like destruction and chaos is that inflection point where you are in absolute oblivion and thus can create. And so. I do feel like there's so much opportunity for creation, which is what is gorgeous about the internet if we acknowledge those dark corners, I think. So yeah, I love that. I think that's so true about like those Buddhist philosophies of like sitting in the uncomfortable. You talked a little bit about this, but what your inspiration was, but who did you collaborate on this? It's so beautiful, too. The report is so stunning. It's visually just really a pleasure to look at. But yeah, talk a little bit about who you collaborated with. And I know you created this for brands specifically, but yeah, I would love to hear more about that. Yeah, so it came from a couple of different things like it was bubbling inside the agency as a feeling that we felt we needed to codify our thoughts around social because we were going to, we were getting asked a lot to paper over the cracks of it for brands. And we were like, we need to go out with some thought leadership to like settle this so that we can then be really bold in our thinking as we consult. And I was also writing a piece for the new mischief book, which has just come out this week for pre-order, I think. And it's a, so I wrote an essay about the case for chaos essentially. So that thought was in my brain. Then the agency was also kind of thinking about the state of social and our perspective on social, frankly, because that's a lot of our business. And we didn't want to just answer social briefs with like more rollout plans and a creator strategy. It kind of felt like it was counter to our belief. And so in order to be really demonstrative with clients, we needed to go out there with a philosophy. And then I think as well, we started talking to incredible people like Yancy Strickler who wrote an incredible piece about the Dark Forest Web and depressurized spaces. And then our community at morning, our shadow committee, which is like a group of 200 tastemakers and fixers around the world and asking their opinions about how they felt about social. And so it really was like a very collaborative iterative report in that sense. It was very much built by the community, which feels nice and kind of on philosophy for the idea. And then yeah, like we created it internally, but then also collaborated with Lee Heizig, who's a incredible designer and parrot who helped us get out of our own way and not pastiche ourselves and make it too morning. We wanted to make sure it looked and felt like a iteration of ourselves without it being chinsy. How do you depict this rewilding of the internet without it feeling utopic and I don't know, sort of trivial. And so she did a really good job of generating in mid-journey loads of weird, rewilded creatures with like multiple nipples and several legs. And it just kind of felt like it all came together this like gross, cute aesthetic, you know? Totally. I want to talk about like if we feel like it's it's really possible because I think there's like an optimism about technology generally and and how it can impact our lives. And then there's also like a real reality about how the algorithms work on these platforms that we spend so much time on. And how they reward conformity in many ways and how this idea of conformity versus like true creativity feels hard right now when we're in an attention economy that the algorithms determine who wins and who loses. And I want to believe it's possible, but I also feel a little helpless in the face of it when it kind of feels like the algorithm is out of my control. Of course there's all these like other cool decentralized social stuff and we live in that world, but there's no distribution, there's no reach in that world yet. And so the bridge feels far. Yeah, I hear you, but I think it's a really interesting, really interesting to hear you would, he used the word reach because I think what I'm arguing for or at least trying to give attention to is the power of the potent, small, sometimes hidden unknown spaces and the accumulative impact of that. Like, you know, we compare in our report around rewilding the web and like nourishing it. And rewilding as a principle is about shepherding something back to biodiversity and it's slow and iterative and collaborative and it's not finite or final, which I find comforting because I don't think that there is a binary answer or switch. I'm not like, oh, we're going to return to web one vibes. Like that's not what I'm trying to say or fight for. I think the next version of us will be not in spite of all of that sameness and cultural flattening, but because of it and therefore we'll find like exciting new edges inside of that. I don't think that they will exist inside the algorithm. I think they'll be interesting emerging pockets, but I think we're looking for joy and creativity in the wrong places. If we're asking that of those spaces, I think that's a too tall and expectation. I almost feel like I have acquiesced and like accepted the spaces where that is happening and I'm now excited to like carve and frankly design spaces where it isn't, which I think is more rousing than ever because I've always been an infiltrate from within gal. I've worked for big corporates. I've like done pretty well on centralized social. I've always been good at leveraging that beast, but never have I felt more inspired to create my own product. And I've never felt like that. I've always been like, I've kind of got in line and like been good at infiltrating from within. But when I think about things like you know p.pi.fwa and that kind of anti algorithm, I built this in a few weeks over Thanksgiving. What do you think? Tyler Bainbridge's project, Borne of the newsletter. Obviously he's leveraging web one aesthetic, which I think is nostalgic and cozy, but I do like watching people literally code products as a solution to something they're not getting. Yeah. What I'm hearing from you that is coming out of this report and I am seeing as in the landscape of our world is there's all these centralized social media platforms. They're competing for attention and everybody's it's almost like player versus player type thing where everybody's trying to get to the top of the algorithm. That produces so much noise and it becomes a race to who can be the most edgy or the most played to those algorithms in a way that's really inauthentic and not true to what you're speaking of of like authentic creativity. It's a different thing. And that's happened. And then there's all of this technology that's happened that has made the ability for people to create their own pockets of the internet easier than ever. It's easier than ever to build your own apps. It's easier to ever to launch your own financial rewards and economies with meme coins and things like that as well as this move towards niche and creator first content. So like we're looking at sub stack sort of beehives or that type of world. And I think perfectly imperfect is a wonderful encapsulation of all of these things coming to life in one project. But I see I totally see the world that you how we've gotten to where we are and how that is a more positive and more a space that is nurturing to distinct communities and creativity. I think one of the things that I constantly sort of come back to with us at Boys Club is like that is limiting as a business. You're inherently a small business if that's going to be the game that you're playing. And I'm curious if that's something that's come up for you as you're talking to brands and as you're painting this picture of a new type of landscape around social media. And when I talk about social media, I'm talking about a very broad stroke, not just like Instagram. I'm talking about like everywhere we show up in a social way online today. And what those conversations have looked like in a really practical way when you're painting this landscape of sort of a new more intimate, more niche way of approaching this type of creation. Very challenging. They are really they're really hard conversations and are somewhat counter to commercial success in my business. But I want I morning has always led with philosophy first product second. And so we will consult and shepherd brands to better if they are open to hearing. And most of them are starting to understand that actually being big and littering the internet with content corn and more is more is not better. They're realizing that now you see the massive brands who are trying to be trying to feel small by collaborating with you know neighborhoods or local communities because they're trying to tap into the potent and the niche. And so it's a challenging conversation because it is at right now seemingly at odds with scale commerciality. So from for us a big part of this report was laying the landscape for why this is necessary and urgent. And then saying to brands right will now partner with us to figure out a roadmap for what that looks like for you. Are you launching a WhatsApp community? Are you partnering with folks on the ground in a certain region in order to co create product? Like if you have appetite to operate in that way and you have the resources and you're able to play be brave enough to play long game we're here for it. We'll help you. We will be with you on that whole journey but it will take a minute you will purge you will purge following you may not necessarily get you know the metrics that you're imagining right away. It's not it's not short-term gain this it's long-term gain and I feel like some brands are up for that and some brands are not and I feel like the ones that are brave and want legacy and longevity are on board and see it but it is a challenging conversation it's really tough and it's hard for me to turn away briefs that are potentially like you know a month sprint to do something that I know is just going to lit a tick-tock you know and it's like actually that's not really going to set you up I could take your money but it's not going to help you. Yeah what does the ideal end state or I know you you spoke about rewilding being this constantly evolving thing which I think is a really cool way to think about it but like if it is a long game like what are some of those examples or outcomes that you think would be really cool for or positive or potentially have a commercial impact over a long-term period of time. for some of these brands and people that you're talking to, like curious like what how it comes to life. - Yeah, it's interesting because I think, like if we dig in, beyond like marketing comms, feeling more generous and abundant and decentralized, which is kind of a veneer, isn't it? If we actually dig into the infrastructure of like low key capitalism, this is about us shifting our models for how we are paying, being paid, how we're selling goods, how we're collaborating, how we're profit splitting, those collaborations. So this is all to say that the future state for these types of expressions for brands will mean them having to fully transform their literal infrastructure as a business if they want to meet their promise and meet the community where it's at. If they want to be rewarded with longevity and depth and true engagement, then brands actually need to start to co-author with the internet, with the community in order to win commercially. So it's a tough one because it's an ugly answer, because it's not easy to do. And I don't think everyone will make it. And I'm glad. - Yeah, it reminds me of when, you know, in the olden days, when we were all trying to us older millennials were trying to on board brands to social media in the first place, where it was like this moment where, you know, whatever, my space, early Facebook was happening and marketers like myself were looking at it and being like, okay, big brands, it's an opportunity for you, but in order to do it, you're gonna have to really change a lot of the ways that you think about comms, about you think about marketing, you gotta, you know, be far less precious. This is in a 30 second TV ad, like there was that education that was happening at the time. And, you know, for better or worse, it happened the way it happened, but that was definitely a conversation I've remember having at agencies many, many times with brand partners who were like, I want some social, but I wanna still have everything to go through legal in the same way that like a 30 second ad spot did. And so kind of like what you're saying is, is that same kind of moment happening, but also like applying it, it's not just a superficial like comms and marketing effort at this point, it's like going down into the stack of the business and like the product creation and the way that the business is run. Is that like an accurate way to be thinking about it? - Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's like we can't paper over a rotten call with marketing anymore. We used to and frankly my job was easier, but now you can't do that no more. It has the model, has to mirror the true intention and you have to commit to the bit. And so brands that are built now, like you think of folks like Telfer, are set up to roll that way inherently because it's built into the bones of their business model and that's why they're winning. And that's why you know legacy brands are struggling because they're having to unlearn and undo a lot of things that have set them up for success in yeah years past when we were rattling around trying to convince them. I remember those times exactly, but it's an interesting moment because you know, we have shifted through the era of social cut downs and then you know brand omnipresence and influence. And now we're in this era of infiltration where provocation is the currency. But what I'm asking my brand partners, the ones we've been working with for years is get yourself ready to now be truly co-authoring culture again. Like you can't just be a mouthpiece, you have to say something relevant and say less, but better. - In your report, you talk about sort of like an influencer era where it was like all influencer first. And I feel like we, and what we're talking about here and like this small and the cozy spaces and this community built out of sort of these like smaller invite only or affinity based communities or whatever it is. Do you think that's still like creator first in some way? How do you balance something I constantly struggle with is like are we just repeating the influencer model in like a different way with different words, but it's the same thing? Or how do you think about sort of the move of, I think about like feed me and Emily Suddenberg and like that type of brand that's being built in her media presence and that feeling like very creator first like every single one of her newsletters is a photo of her first. And like that's part of it, but it feels different to me than the influencer landscape of, I don't know even five years ago, but I can't quite put my finger on what the difference is. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts around that in the new way that you want to see? - Yeah, I have thoughts, they're not fully codified, but I agree with you, there was a moment where influence meant knowledge about something. And then it sort of fractured and it was like influence meant like saturating you in who I am, versions of myself and that abundance and that oversharing will win me views. And I think we're returning now to a space of expertise. People still want to engage with true influence and they want to understand what the value exchange is gonna be, which is why I think it's interesting when you see folks building these communities, potent but still 20, 30,000 communities who are gathered around a specific mushroom foraging in my, for me. And I feel like those forums and those discord groups and those Facebook groups, like they are, it is about that. And we're all there for the same reason and we're influencing each other and there will be folks that lead those communities. And I think in that sense, creators are still world building. It's just smaller and more specific. And I only wanna listen if it's about that. I'm not interested if you're gonna suddenly become like an entire lifestyle curator and you're gonna tell me what curtains to buy, what's soaked to use and we're to go on holiday. It's almost like pick your thing and do it well. So maybe it's more about the curation element inside creators. That's so interesting. Yeah, about a year and a half ago, my Instagram was hacked and it was a gift because it made just like, I just had to restart and have been really thoughtful about like who I'm following and the intake that I have on Instagram. And once you do that and you then get back to it, you're like, wow, Machilata, Latte's and Pilates. Like I cannot see another woman posting. I literally can't and it worked. And it was a thing that like people build businesses off of which is wonderful. But like I'm so disinterested in that. But when I think about what has happened when you think about people who have taken off on TikTok, a huge part of it is like they're one thing. They're like, this is the thing that I'm gonna talk about and I'm gonna talk about it over and over and over again. And I'm an expert in this thing. And that has what's worked. And I think that it's the same sort of what you're speaking to of like expertise and influence as like a real driver of why people want to consume and follow specific creators as opposed to yeah, just full lifestyle brands that are people. And I think people are, it's just tired and people are fatigue. - I think it's fatigueing, right? And I think also there's an, I'm excited about this return to craft over craft. I like this idea of like small, you know, meaningful gestures that are specific versus like such abundance and like kind of pollution. I think there's something really nice about craft getting its flowers, you know? And I think that with brands, before it was all brands trying to like shitpost and then like post everyday and like consume stories. And it felt like never ending honestly. And I'm glad with through that now and I've satar brands like post less, you don't need to post it. You're times a day, your community manage a voice doesn't need to be consistent. You're a fucking human being as well. Like let's just like find our edges and be fallible. That's like gorgeous and alluring and that's what we want. And so I'm excited about this return to craft and seeing more polished creativity. Like I think about Isomaya and the world she's built around her beauty brand and like they are not social first assets. It's like a music video and it's like a crazy set design. It's like even formatted correctly. But like it doesn't matter because it's a world she's built and I'm a bit like I kind of want to be in it and I'm going to buy the lipstick. Yeah. You have so many wonderful phrases and sort of just like ways that you describe things. One of them is the chaos pendulum and constructed chaos. Can you talk to us more about that? Yes. So at morning, we believe in acknowledging the kind of coexistence of seemingly at odds elements. And so this spectrum of chaos and order we see as an antidote because it embraces the swing between all these planes at once and the coexistence of them all. And I think it's very millennial of us and very old school millennial social media marketing to crave the binary. Like this is a rollout plan. This is how you beat the algorithm. This is how you win. So I like the idea of moving out of a binary space and instead willingly moving between planes of random, underground, demystified and brutalist. And so if we think about chaos as an ingredient for brands and constructed chaos, some of the examples that we have in the report are things like brat, which is a really nice example of expert marketing. It's simple. It was specific. And then they allowed it to get adopted and grow with the audience. So that I think is like a gorgeous example of constructed chaos. You gave the audience the tools to go and build on it for you. They chose to make it viral. This is the awful-- when you get a brief and it says, KPI, virality. And you're like-- [LAUGHTER] They-- So-- Subscribe. Oh, yeah. So there's a-- I think it's very rousing for marketers to think about chaos as an ingredient instead of something to be feared. We're so terrified that the consumer is going to run off and misunderstand our CTA. But how wonderful if they are kind of bewildered and then they feel like they want to explore it or build on it. And I think that generative nature has been missed in marketing a lot. I think again about Kanye buying that Super Bowl ad spot, the most expensive Super Bowl ad spot. And then it just being like-- camera video of himself being like by the shoe like whatever. It felt like that was a place where we're used to seeing glossy, you know, corporate cinematic TV ads and the disruption of that media placement. I loved the chaos of that. It felt like it woke us all up and it felt so self-aware and full of satire and so I think that's really interesting as well when we think about that. I also think it's interesting that both those references I just gave you are individuals instead of brands and I do think that celebrity is an incredible celebrity and personas. They're always ahead when it comes to social. There's so much more agile and there's so much more nimble around how they build law and I feel like that's probably the why skims is done so well. Like they are on it. Like I come up with a thought on who would be smart for them to be included in the campaign. It's there the next day. Like I don't know how they're so reactive and agile but it has this reactivity which feels purposeful and chaotic without feeling like desperate and like clinging on to the trend cycle. So there's something in that too. Similarly essence I feel like is a really nice example. She knows herself. She knows her consumer. There's like a obnoxious specificity to the copy. I'm like yeah that's put you done it. You nailed it. Just carry on as you were. Yeah skims and Kim just have me just in their grip. Yeah. Every time I'm just like wow I can't stop. I can't stop ordering from this place and it's really extraordinary to it's so fun to watch a brand. A huge brand to be so successful in how nimble they are and it's a great example of that it's possible. It's time for a more open, inclusive and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone everywhere all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on ramp to the world of crypto with the 24/7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders no matter where you are you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus forget about waiting times and waiting lines you can send receive and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. Visit Kraken.com/boysclub. Not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive ink no third party transfers available. Okay I just want to end what is your advice to brands a few sentences on okay if you're a creator in this landscape if you're brand in this landscape like you've spoken to this a bit but like just the main takeaway that they should have as they're thinking about their social media strategy for 2025. Okay no no I think a lot of what we spoken to here has been about bravery and seeking like the wild rewilding yourself so I think find your people go deep do less better forget clawing for reach and jumping on cringe trends that is like going to make you imminently pass a find your take find your people and be generous with them and they will reward you. Wow preach I could listen to it all day I love it. Okay wait one last thing favorite meme at the moment. My favorite meme at the moment is praying I've just put it on a hat so that's why it's top of mine but I love the meme whole day I'm fucking busy only get few money. I haven't come across her. I can't wait to see. I look at it and I'm like I hate that it's so accurate I hate it. I'm the whole day I'm fucking busy only get few money. Yeah sure words. So I'll be buying I'll be buying the hat. Tide to it on my head. Lydia thank you so much this is so fun to talk to you and really always endlessly inspired by the way that you see the world and the internet and your kindness and creativity around it so thank you for sharing it. Thank you guys so fun to hang out.