EP #180: The Truth About Parasocial Relationships & Modern Friendship with Sanibel Lazar, Author

(upbeat music) - Hi, Santa Belle. Thank you so much for coming onto Everyday in Dorfins. It is so wonderful having you on the show. So thank you for being here. - Thank you for inviting me, Stella. I'm so excited. - We have a very exciting conversation to dive into this afternoon. Largely around parasocial relationships, which is the entry point as to how I found you on Instagram. And it's also quite ironic because I saw a video that you posted on your profile, DM Do. Here we are today. And now we're building some sort of relationship deraise friendship, 'cause I guess all my guests are my friends. (laughs) - Just like we evolve from the parasocial into the actual. - And I have actually built a lot of friendships that way, which we can get into later. We'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But before we dive into everything, I'd love for you to share a little bit more for my audience. Talk a little bit about your background, your writing experience, how you came into the world of becoming a writer. I know that you've pivoted from corporate into the more creative field, so tell us a little bit more about that experience for you. - For sure. - So you found me in my incarnation as a content creator, which was not something I ever intended. I call myself a begrudging content creator. And I would like to think of myself as an author for most. My book came out last year. This is my debut novel. It's called "Dab and Have More." And I describe it as a sad rich girl, campus novel. It has some really terrible bad behavior from trust fund, nepo baby type of kids. But mostly it was a vehicle for me to express my opinions on wealth and class in a spherical form. So it's entertaining, but you can also get a sense of my ideals and my system of beliefs. And these are also the things that I talk about on social media. And so the reason I started posting was to promote my book. And in a way, the video is the idea is just kept coming to me because I have so much to say about class and so much to say about privilege. And so it was not that big of a stretch when I started talking about pair of social friendships and toxic relationships, which also feature in my book as well. So I think that the pair of social relationship video did surprisingly well because I didn't think that people would care all that much about it. But as we were discussing before, a lot of times the videos that go viral are not the ones that you expect. It's always the ones that you're like this. I'm just going to off the cuff, whatever, put it out there. And all of a sudden, people resonate with it. Maybe it's because we're thinking less and we're doing more. There's like a weird irony to that. Like when you kind of just put stuff out into the universe and there's more natural people. Unfiltered, you just, it resonates with people. The idea that I loved from the, it was an Atlantic article about pair of social relationships that I was riffing on. And the author described this idea of mass personal. And it's kind of this, I guess it's like a dichotomy of it. When I make a video and you've watched on your phone, it feels like it's for you. It feels personal, it feels intimate. But in reality, like I'm aware that I'm speaking to that, hopefully thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. And it almost like messes with your brain where you feel like I'm talking to you. And maybe you comment something really aggressive and really angry because I've touched a nerve. But in reality, on my end, I'm not thinking about you as an individual. I'm thinking about this faceless audience. I also feel similarly when I create content. But what I've noticed is that sometimes if a thought comes to my brain, my first, my first reaction is to FaceTime a friend to talk about whatever's on my mind. And I've actually stopped doing that. And I've replaced the habit to whip out my phone to create a TikTok video. And then I have this weird feeling about that because I don't want to live my life through just being digital and talking to my phone to then talk to a mass audience. But I do find that the initial spillage of words out of my mouth, if I'm doing that for a TikTok video, it's going to perform way better than if I processed this with a close friend and then I share it, because it's more off the cuff. But I don't want to live my life feeling like my voice is constricted to how I present myself on social media. I don't know if you've felt that way. No. And the instinct to want to make a TikTok, it is something that is-- it feels like a little bit poisonous in some ways. Like I will be having a conversation with a friend. Dave will say something really insightful, and they'll see my eyes light up, and they'll go, you can use it. Like they already know what I'm thinking. And they're like, go ahead, you can make a TikTok about that. And it's kind of like-- it makes me feel like Zamperic. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm not just trying to-- I'm not having dinner with you to steal your thoughts, I promise. This is crazy. Story time. It's related to this. I studied abroad during COVID and was sent home, obviously, because I could not stay in Scotland at that time. But it was in that early 2020 era. And I developed a friendship with a few other Americans that were studying abroad. Since 2020, I've barely spoken to most of them. And most of them follow me on Instagram. One of those friends reached out to me in the past few weeks, just commenting on, like, oh, it looks like every day and door friends is killing it, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, OK, thank you. That's very kind of you to say and for you to observe. And we got on a face time a few weeks ago. And I have-- we have literally not spoken in six years at this point. And I'm talking to this person as if we were catching up as if it was yesterday. And I think he was a little like, what's going on. And he also caught me at a very bad time, because I just watched the Hannah Montana 20th anniversary. And I was like, in tears, and I was sitting in voice notes, like I was crying. And I was like, he is going to be like, why is she crying? I'm waiting to watch that with my little sister. So don't give me any spoilers. I won't. I was just like, oh, my god, the nostalgia. And also how proud I am of Miley for putting herself out there. Because it kind of relates to what we're talking about, like being very public, but also trying to stay private at the same time, like how to balance that. So I'm crying in these voice notes. And then he's like, let's just FaceTime. And we're on the FaceTime. And he said something. And he was like, don't twist my words. Don't use what I'm saying for a TikTok. And I was offended. Because I was like, I don't-- Oh, my god. I would never, ever want a friend or a family member or a partner to think that I am using them for content. And it's so hard to grapple with. Because as a creative, you're an author, as someone myself building this brand, communicating, of course, I'm going to gain inspiration for what I write about, what I speak about, from my lived experience. That's how authors and musicians, like, that's how we create. But I would never-- it really upset me, because I would never want someone to think, oh, I'm just using that as a sound bite. So it sounds like you've kind of experienced something similar. How do you handle that? Interesting response, because it feels sort of like, he's like preemptively defensive. And I guess maybe what a touch to use, it makes you kind of feel like, do people think I'm exploiting them? I mean, I use a lot of scenarios for my real life where I will like, anonymize people. But I'll say this woman did this, and the etiquette of it seems really muddled. And I'll kind of just describe the situations. And so far as I know, but I will say, I don't read my comments. I made that a policy a very long time ago, because there was just so much nastiness in there that even if there's 100 nice comments, the one you remember is like the rude one. So I just straight up don't read them. But as far as I know from my real life friends who, once in a while, I'll just grab a scenario that might involve them. They've never been like, please don't mention that or don't say that. Because what I'm talking about, if I say, these two friends hung out without the third friend, what do you think of that? It's more about the scenario and not about the gossip. So I feel like that maybe puts me above it a little bit. I just grabbed some friend drama in my brother's friend group because it was like straight male friend group drama. And I feel like this is just such a rarity. You don't really hear about it. And I had a good story. And he was not accept by that, but two of the boys in his friend group, like recognize that that story was about their friend group because his friends follow me on Instagram. And I like, again, I don't believe that they were accept, but like people are watching it. Like I was surprised that his friends watch my content. I knew that they followed me like from years ago, but they're actually sitting there and watching it. So it does make you think twice a little bit because you never want to hurt someone's feelings or make them feel used. But I was just at Susan Chiever. She wrote a book about her father and John Chiever, very, very famous American writer. He wrote about his daughter. He wrote about his wife. He wrote about his family in ways that he didn't veil them at all. And I think there is the artist card that you can pull where you're like, this is art. I don't have to care about your feelings because this is like for humanity. And he literally said this type of thing to his daughter. And she talked about it. Like he's long dead, but she was like that really hurt. And I was very mad. And it took her many years to get over it. So I don't think that the artistic card is something that like puts you above reproach. But like it is like weirdly legitimized. And a TikTok is not part though. So I think like that's where maybe the boundary is, where it's like, I can't really like, well, this is for my art. And what it's like a 30s like a TikTok. Yeah, 100%. It is really hard to navigate because a lot of the times the lived experience that we have, I'm assuming you're also in your 20s, maybe early 30s. Like we're in our young adult. - Our old 30s. - Okay, early 30s. That's the new early 20s. Between the 20s, 30s, even for just like young adulthood, we're all experiencing very similar things but in just different ways. And so that's why I think that type of content resonates online because it's It's not about, to your point, the gossip or the drama, but it's about the situational context and like the dynamic. And that's what I think a lot of people resonate with. For example, we were talking about this earlier, something that's been doing very well for me on TikTok is around how men are not approaching women and exploring how, as a society, both women and men are paralyzed by this idea of rejection. So we won't put ourselves out there. We are glued to our phones. We've become socially atrophied because we just don't know how to put ourselves out there and be okay with someone not being interested. And so that's like one storyline that, you know, I've lived and now I get to talk about, but then there's a whole other storyline that I've seen blow up on my socials for me. And it's around friendship breakups and navigating that. And I felt like it's been really difficult at times to talk about that because I have actively experienced that in the past three, four years. I'm curious when you're gaining inspiration from your life, you know, you mentioned your brother's friend group as an anecdote, but when something's kind of fresh, but you want to talk about it because you know that the situation is like the motif or the idea is what's going to resonate with people and will help people. Like how do you navigate that and communicate something in a way that is in alignment with your brand, but not at the mercy of like actually painting your relationships with the people in your life. Right. So you mean like if it's a situation that's like happening to me, it's very personal. Yeah. I have made a few videos where like I'm almost sub-tweeting someone, right? Where it's like they're being really aggressive. This woman who's being so aggressive and like trying to force me to be her friend because we had coffee one time. And that was kind of irritating to me because it was like, okay, because we had one coffee doesn't mean that we're going to have one coffee every week for the rest of my life. Right? Like you can't course someone to friendship. So that one, I think I did put myself at risk of if she saw that video, I decided I didn't care. Right? Like I want her to get the message to some degree. So I think it's sort of like you treat the friendships and the relationship that you value in one way and something that is that relationship and how you value to me. In fact, it felt like it was like infringing on my life. So that I think it was more like I think that is incentive to me to of me to some degree, but it was like I'm going to take this calculated risk. And if she sees it so be it and if not, that's not really the point. So I'm going to put it out there and there were a lot of people very mixed reactions to that where where some people said sort of a version of defending or do some degree where it's like, well, if you don't ask how do you build a friendship and like that's fair to, but I was just talking about from my perspective and feeling like she was just being way too aggressive about it. But what I found interesting is what I started making these, I call it like an etiquette column, but it's not a traditional etiquette column because I don't tell you what to do. I just kind of like discourse on the topic because everything is okay. So that's why etiquette columns don't like work. There's no one size fits all rule. And people, I said, send me in your dilemma, send me in your awkward situations and I'll share them and people would DM me and I'll take a screenshot of it and then summarize it and say like what I thought or how I would act. But it wasn't really like prescriptive of like if you're also in this situation where a younger woman set me something where she was at her high school graduation and her classmates dad was like, owieering at her. And it just sounded like one of these uncomfortable situations where you usually just freeze and you do nothing and then afterwards you wish you had stood up for yourself. And like so I kind of just spoke to that where it's like, I don't think you making a scene or like standing up for yourself in the moment would have felt that good. I think you would have regretted that also. Like it's kind of a lose-wish situation. So like, really not helpful advice, but just kind of like talking about the situation. And then of course in the comments, all these people saying the same thing happened to me when this, when that like they just go on and they tell their version of the story and for me as a content creator, I'm like, okay, good. This is not about me providing like an answer. It's more about like starting a conversation and then engagement and engagement engagement. Yeah. I like that. Not about providing an answer, but just starting a conversation. And when we look at the creator economy now, they're it's so saturated. Like there are so many creators online and everyone and their mother is giving their own two cents and their advice, which is really overwhelming. I don't go on Instagram now to look at my friends' photos. It's become a running log of people's opinions and it's exhausting, but I'm also doing it too. Yeah. So I'm guilty of it. It's supposed to kind of just like hot take after hot take. And I try not to like look at any content. I only go in the app to post something, but something will grab my attention and I'll watch like two minutes of a woman talking about like money, like social classes in the Midwest and how it's different from New York. And like, do I like what I have read article about that? No, I don't really care, but she had a good hook. So I was in for two minutes. But you didn't ask me something about like brand. And I feel like for for better or worse, I don't really have a cohesive enough brand where anything like anything that I want to say that's a rant, the fact that it's a rant is kind of unbranded. Like that gets to like keep it within the circle of the things that I talk about because like when I talk about money, people really get their hackles up. It's such a personal topic. Even if people don't think about it that way, like me saying anything about like how you should spend your money or how you should save it or like what is or is not worth buying that necessarily like cuts to people's core. And they have a lot of feelings about that. And like I would say, this is maybe why I don't check the comments, but like anything about money is good fodder for engagement. Yeah. And I think sometimes you have to recognize the purpose of certain comments on on Instagram or TikTok. Like it's not for you to maybe take it to heart or to engage with necessarily, but it's more to use it as a form of engagement to boost your profile. So it's actually looking at these platforms from a business perspective, which I think this ties into something we were talking about earlier where you had mentioned that your host day, like your what was it again? Sorry. I'm, I'm forgetting. I host discussion group and I've been calling it Savage Girl So on. And I just had my third ticketed event, but I actually had like maybe five or six or seven events before that where it was not ticketed. And it was like, I put this on Instagram. Like if you are interested in this stuff that I'm talking about, I want to like chat with people about it in real life. I don't want it to just be this like one way conversation. So reductive, not nuanced at all. I was like, these are topics that I genuinely am interested in. So come to the park at like 2 p.m. on a Wednesday. The first incarnation it was called an employee girls club. And some boys came, but over time, it just got bigger and bigger. So I couldn't like, I can't bring 20 people to a coffee shop. Right. That's not good event planning. So I'm doing ticketed events starting in November. And I think what's so nice and what's so interesting is that maybe it's because there's already like a set topic. For instance, like the last one I did, the topic of the night was transitioning class. So you grow up poor or you grow up rich and then as an adult, because of your own job or whatever your career situation, myriinal situation, you are in a different class. And then we talked about how, how do the people that you like left behind feel? How does the class that you've joined receive you? Are they hostile to you? Are they welcoming? And so like that was the theme of the night. And I do like a 30 minute talk with a friend. And then we break up into small discussion groups and people talk amongst themselves for another hour. And what's been so interesting to just like witness as the event organizer is like people making friendships so quickly. And like maybe it's the like lubricant of having a topic to discuss and I give you a question like chat about this first, but people jump right into it. And since we're talking about money, class and privilege, most of the time people end up giving like a little bit of bio. They'll be like, I went to public school, I grew up with a poor or like I grew up at a Swiss boarding school. And so like in a way, the context of your life is built into the topic. And so like this intimacy builds up really quickly just by nature of the topic. I mean, especially those topics that you're having people talk about. And I want to hear more just from the book that you've written and the upcoming one in 2027. But how we look at money and class and how that impacts our friendships, especially when you're in high school. Because that's such a, you're young, you're in your teenage hood years. And people in high school are mean. Like people were not very nice to me in high school. And I went to high school with a handful of kids I went to middle school with. And I'd actually moved burrows between end of middle school and start of high school. And the amount of shade for a lack of a better term I was met with by 13 year olds who didn't, you know, you didn't know left from right at that time in your life. Like it's kind of insane to think about, you know, and you can't really articulate it or even really understand what's happening at such a young age. But now that I look back on that time, I really have reflected on the ways that I think money and your socioeconomic status like creates biases, especially in younger kids and how you, they can hold that against you at such a young age. It makes you question the friendship that you maybe had previously had with that person. No, absolutely. I think money is toxic to relationships at every age. In a way, it's, I think it's almost a good thing that when you're 13, you can't think about it that deeply. And it's working in such a like under the surface way that even, even if relationships are not super healthy, you don't, you can't put your finger on why. I feel like it's so disheartening when you discover the real life. reason why, but my my first book is very much about this because the main characters are a very wealthy adopted Korean girl in a very wealthy white family. And then the girl who like slowly becomes her best friend against all odds is this Chinese American like middle class girl. Her parents like have thick accents and they don't know the social mores of like the rich white people that go to this boarding school. And so like there's constantly friction where the rich girl feels like she's doing her friend of favor. And the middle class girl actually feels like thank you so much for being my friend. And it's just like tremendous imbalance. And so I think this is something that's really common all relationships that involve someone who has like markedly more money and then someone who has less almost like you you're supposed to be grateful that you're extending your friendship to me. And before they become friends, in fact, the middle class girl and her click of like less popular girls, they sort of worship like the rich girls and they have a pair of social relationship with them to some degree because like in me and girls, everyone knows all these facts about Regina George, right? Like there's that scene where they just like interview people and they're like she wears camo pants and flip flops and I bought camo pants and flip flops. Like when you just like know things about other people and they might not even know you exist, like to me that is sort of the beginning of pair social. And you talked about like getting back in touch with that Scotland friend. And I think it's so interesting that like you can kind of jump back into it and act like no time is passed. And that's because of social media, I think. And it's like not really normal. I feel like we should acknowledge that. Like we actually haven't talked for six years or whatever it may have been. And like I might even be a totally different person. I recently, this is making me think of that. Like there was a girl I went to high school with and we never once had a conversation. She's a Korean American girl. She reached out to me when my book came out and we like got coffee and like now we're friends. Like we've hung out several times since then. But like in that first conversation, it since like we have a shared cultural background, we went to the same school. We worked in the same industry in New York. It kind of like we could just fill in the blanks for each other and be pretty accurate. But I was like this is the first conversation we're ever having and we're talking like we're old friends. And like it was really nice. But afterwards I was like that is kind of bizarre in a way too. It is bizarre. And I think a lot about how our generation has been socialized with technology and social media. And then the younger generations, it's like even worse because they're born into all of this at this point. And as much as social media is like incredibly detrimental to our well-being, the urge to be offline is so strong for me. I have a brick. Like I'm obsessed with my brick. Now it feels like a status symbol to be offline, frankly, at this point. Like to be like, oh, I brick my phone for a day. Like I'm unreached. Yeah, like I'm mysterious now. But it's like, no, I'm just living my life. First, that makes me question like to what degree is a lot of social media really performative, which we can get back to. But despite there being the determines to social media and technology, I can't help but admit that some of my closest friends I have made through social media and through like the powers of technology allowing you to keep in touch with long distance friendships and relationships. And I'll give you an example. Two examples. The first is I became friends with a girl who was living in New York at the time, it's like four years ago. She found my podcast through social media. She was like my age, getting her masters in New York, also had a podcast. She wanted to interview me. She came to an event I was hosting. So we got to meet in person. We did the interview and I was like, cool, she's like a wellness friend adjacent in the landscape. And then we would meet for like a dinner maybe once every few months and super nice and we became friendly. And then it's ironic how these things work. Right when she graduated from her program, she moved back to California, which is where she's from. She does not like we are, you know, completely different states. I see her maybe once a year, once or twice a year. We send each other 20 minute voice notes like every other week. And I know that in your video, you talked a little bit about how voice notes can maybe be a bit performative, but the way I've felt my friendship strengthened through the act of like being so detailed and honest about the things that have been going on in my life. Like even though she's not here, I feel like she's always with me and vice versa. And she's become genuinely one of my closest people in my life. And it's funny how through the distance we've actually become stronger friends. And then the second example is a friend that I made through an event that I hosted an Amsterdam last year with my podcast. She's friends with the co-host and obviously we met at the event. She attended it, but we didn't really speak. We followed each other on Instagram and then we started kind of voice noting. And now it's been I don't know six months and I I feel very close to her over the things that we talk about. It just makes me think about like, well, maybe social media can be leveraged for good. Like maybe it can be a tool to find points of connection with other people. Okay. I mean, to me, I wouldn't credit social media with that. To me, this is more just like the value of friendship is important and social media just happens to be a way to meet people and make friends. Like I don't. The larger goals and aims are not anymore at least really, I think to support like real life friendships. But I have like, I could say so much about how toxic social media is just like the tech companies. But I feel like so much of what you said about voice notes is interesting just about like how they're so much more intimate than texting. And it was in the article, the Atlantic article, the woman said that voice notes are performative. And I actually disagreed with that because I think you have definitely there's times when you're performing it on purpose. I think there are also like a gray area where you're performative by accident. Right? Like maybe you're just self-conscious about it. But voice notes are the main way that I communicate with my best friend. He lives in LA. And it's I probably send him like half an hour worth of voice notes every day. And it's like homework for him. He always jokes. He's like, I've got to do diligence before I get back to you. But like the fact that you met someone recently, I feel like there's this suspicion on friendships that form quickly, right? Like is it a friendship version of love bombing? But I also have made a lot of new friends in the past year. And I'm editing this essay on friendship right now where I'm trying to not sound like I'm anti old friends and anti long-term friends while communicating a message that I think the scary thing about getting older, I'm 32. I'm about to be 33. It is very normalized for your social life to plateau and for you to not make new friends after, I don't know, like 30 because I was thinking what was my last infusion of like new friends? That was grad school. That was 2017. That was such a long time ago. Like my MFA friends are now my old friends. I've known these people for almost 10 years. And the last year, because my book came out, that gave me like a pretext to meet and make so many new friends. And I was like, this is so much fun. Like I forgot what it feels like when you like meet someone and you connect. And like you can feel the chemistry there. Like because I usually hang out with friends that I've known for like 15 plus years. Some of my friends are like my childhood friends, still, which is beautiful. And I do think that those are like the richest and most meaningful friendships. But I think that like you forget how important it is to like kind of stay fresh and use those muscles. And it's not networking. And it's not like something that is like towards a career goal or something. It's actually just like purely for friendship. And so I'm trying to write this essay. But it was just sounding so negative towards old friends. And I felt like I had to keep saying, I'm not saying this. I'm not saying that. So I'm trying to rework it in a way. But I'm actually getting at the idea of like that these new friendships that like give you this rush that I haven't had in a long time. It's almost like dating a chick. And like I haven't dated in a long time because I've been married for two years now. Like that I think like new blood in your social circle should be something that you're like deliberately trying to infuse with on a regular basis. But I think that this is this is almost like a radical idea. Very true. And I agree with those points for me, infusing those new relationships into my life. It's incredibly exciting because I feel like I'm being seen in a very different way than like a childhood friend sees me. And they're different experiences, but also uniquely special in their own ways. Because you know, the way I am today is a product of how I was raised. And just like all this context of my childhood in my life that you know, my middle school friends have such a clear understanding of in a way that my current friendships don't because they didn't know me at that time in my life. But there is something oddly liberating about meeting people in this era where they don't have any sort of judgment or idea of like what you were like as a kid or whatever. Like they get to form that opinion in real time based off of what they see right now. And despite the fact that I am incredibly similar to the six year old Stella, I'm also very different. And in a way, it feels I don't know how necessarily articulate it, but it can feel actually pretty liberating to make friends in new chapters in your life. And my fear is that in in certain instances, I think I've deep prioritized old friends because I have felt so not aligned to the old version of myself at that time. But also I am that version because I there is continuity of self across the course of your life despite people changing and evolving and growing. So it is it's actually it's really hard to think about how do I balance the old and the new friendships and at what cadence do I constantly seek out new relationships? You know, you don't want to feel like friends are disposable. Like, oh, I'm done with that. - That's the line that I'm trying to walk in the essay because I feel like people will be defensive words. Like I've been my core group of like 10 people have been friends since we were in college and it's like beautiful friendships. And like I believe that, but I just know so many people who just like a lot of their friends, like just like a lot of the like social conversation is like shit talking each other. So I'm like, I as much as like I love to shit talk. Like I go on a rant and that stuff all the time. But I think when it's like about people that you supposedly love, I think that that is toxic. And so like pairing away friends and like being intentional about your relationships in the same way that like if you no longer love your spouse, I think you should get divorced, right? Like I think that like all of your relationships should be very deliberate because you have one single life. And so if you're hanging on to friends just because you've been friends for 20 years, like I personally don't think that's a good reason, but I think that I would get a lot of pushback on that. I think people do really, they prize the duration more than the quality often. And like that's something that, like these friendships that I've made in the past year have really made me question. Like anything that's like plateau, anything that's like inertia, I have like a deep version to. And I think it's because like in my family, and I think this is like very common like in Asian, Asian, American families, there's this sense of like not rocking the boat and like keeping things steady. So like if I'm to get rid of old friends to make room for new friends because it is a zero-sum game, I only have so much time. There's something about that that feels like disloyal or like the people that I was friends with 10 years ago, even if I've completely changed, like that I owe them something. And I think I'm also very critical of like, you don't owe anyone anything culture. Like I think that has become so pervasive and it's so toxic and it erodes community. But there is like a fine line between like just doing things out of inertia and like suffering through a bad marriage or suffering through sort of like meaningless friendships. Like I don't think that you're a martyr and that you should get like praise for that. - Mm-hmm. So what then would be the constitution of connection? It's a hard question, but like when we think about, what does it mean to actually connect with someone? And how can we give ourselves grace to recognize that someone you used to connect with maybe 10 years ago, you're not feeling that same level of connection present day to part ways with that person? I mean, I've had friendship breakups that fall under that exact narrative and storyline. And I have been speechless as to how to even express to that person why I don't feel connected anymore because it comes across like I'm being selfish. Yeah, but I'm not even, I mean, it's not like I don't like you. It's not like you're a horrible person. It's just I've changed, therefore the version of myself that was in relation to you at that period of time in life like that version's gone. So therefore like what is the glue binding us together anymore? If so no, it's such a hard conversation. It's I've definitely done like a bad version of it. I don't have any advice here for people in terms of how to do it. But like sometimes I think like ultimately what I said is like let's be real with each other. Like we don't, we haven't had a good conversation in years. Like I said something like that in as gently as I could. But I think the problem is like I was aware of it for a long time and the way that your my loyalty was manifest is that like I let it drag out. Like I gave the person like more benefit of the doubt than I would if it's someone I met two years ago or something. And so it was kind of like can we both like tacitly come to this understanding where like this is not fun? Like when we hang out it's not, but that person was never getting there because I don't know maybe she just like valued the fact that it was such a long friendship and that felt kind of like a self-explanatory. And I guess like I don't really believe in like relationships being self-explanatory like even with family and that has to do like my own history and my own like more. But I think that like just continuing something for the sake of continuing it is not a good idea when it comes to relationships. I even like was trying to define almost like a nutrition pyramid or like I guess it's inverted now where it's like what would have my ideal break down a friendship speed and I was like I deeply cherish my long-term friendships. I think that should be like 60% of my nutrition pyramid and like 20% are new people who are sort of like in the mix to be compared to the 60% and then this is like my more my newer theory. I would love if at all times like 20% of my friends were people who maybe it's not gonna go anywhere maybe it's just like casual friendship but like it kind of keeps it fresh. And like those are the people who like I don't have to give you like my full back story and like every traumatic thing that's ever happened to me. Like it's not really necessarily our conversation maybe stays a little bit lighter. It's more just about like having fun and like connecting and like someone where there's natural chemistry with. - Right and I do think that you know I have that 20% and a lot of it comes from the way that we stay in touch online like so is it a bad thing? Maybe not, maybe it's not a bad thing. Like maybe it's just the new era in which we build relationships in life. It's like if you only have friendships like that I think you'll feel a little bit empty and a little bit hollow but I feel like to me like what I'm realizing is the mix. - Yes. - Is what's important for like me to feel like social fulfilled. - Something I talk a lot about on the podcast is this idea of diversifying your purpose portfolio and that's a whole separate tangent but if we take that analogy into this maybe it's about thinking about your friendships more broadly as a portfolio of people and there's different types of friendships. I mean Aristotle said this but there's different types of friends for different types of things and the way that you're articulating it is how you think about it in that percentage breakdown and the ways in which you get energized by different people but I do agree with you. I don't think that duration should be like the barometer for quality and depth of connection because yeah, something I've been thinking a lot about is like how people, you know, you independently are changing over the course of your life. Friend XYZ is changing over the course of their life. Two independent people, two independent lives come together are in relationship with one another. That is like a third variable that is then also going to shift and evolve as person A and person B are changing. So it's like not only are you figuring out yourself over time but then you're also trying to navigate like this thing that you're creating with someone whether it be a romantic or a platonic relationship. So to actually preserve a relationship like it's hard, it's work. And I remember someone once told me that I did a really good job with keeping in touch with people. Like a childhood friend told me this like after graduating high school in college, she reflected on how I still have so many friends and how like that wasn't necessarily the case for her. And this is not me tuning my own horn but I genuinely like want to understand why it's been naturally easier for me to keep up with people in ways that it's not necessarily second nature for other people and like what are those behaviors? And is it genuine? Is it not genuine? I don't know. Not that I think I'm not genuine person. I think I am. But I'm interested. You know, it just, I think about this a lot. I mean, again, not to tune my own horn but I've had the same feedback because, I mean, I suppose maybe we just prioritize friendship and that's like a particular strength that not everyone has. My husband always says he's not gonna keep in touch with people. That's true about him. I, as I've been like toiling away on this friendship essay and trying to articulate myself and not offend anyone, like when I was thinking about friendship purpose, I was like, I think part of my realization is that like for me, friendship is about fun. When I think about like a old friend's getting together and having dinner like in my 30s, a lot of times it's like, I come and I'm so exhausted and I'm really stressed out and so with my friend and we just talk about like everything like that we're anxious about. And it's really nice to vent and like what is supportive environment, safe space, but it's not fun. Like, and I wouldn't say that's like all the time but like maybe 50% of the time because like at least 50% of the time I show up to dinner exhausted and stressed out, right? Whereas like you can't show up like that to dinner with someone that you've met twice. Like it's not socially acceptable and as much as that is like, okay, I'm being performative or I'm like I'm putting on a happy face. In some ways it's also like good, fake it till you make it because then I have a really fun time. And I was like, okay, so what is the purpose of going out with people and having fun or like getting drinks and like getting dinner or whatever it is going to a cultural event? And like when I thought about it I was like I have support from my husband and I get a lot of things that I need from him and my friends also can support me when I need to like call upon them but I think like ultimately they are more value to me when like I go out and I have a good time. That like reset something and when you go out with old friends I think there's just such like a comfort and a familiarity and you're not really thinking about fun, you're thinking about like catching them on life. And I did a TikTok where I was like conversations where you catch up are my these favorite. Like I have a friend that lives in Boston and we talk on the phone every other month or so. And like for a while it was kind of stale and I was like, who was this friendship fading? And then I was like, let me do an experiment because we had just been saying like everything that happened in the past month. I would just like list it to him. He would list his updates to me and I was like, okay, that was not a lot of the updates were like negative. It's like, this went wrong, that went wrong. Then the next time that I called him I didn't ask like, oh, what's been going on like with your job or whatever with your family it was like, I had this idea and maybe it's like even something that I talk about on to talk about like class or privilege. Like I've been like kicking around this idea about like pair social friendships and then when we talked about that it was just such a more interesting conversation and like the minutia of my life is often not that different than a month ago. So I don't really wanna talk about it. But I don't wanna seem like I'm withholding if you ask me. - This is so interesting. interesting because what's coming up for me is my frustration with dating in New York City and I know you're not in that name. But it's all small talk and I was talking about this with a friend and he was like, well, there's an equation with dating. It's like, I ask question, you give answer, I ask follow-up question, you give answer, then you ask question, then I give answer. And he actually made an interesting point that it's like small talk isn't the issue. It's, it's, you need to have that to get to know someone. But it's about the chemistry, the quality of the banter and like how it's created. Like, you know, and to your point, you're, you can have these really like stimulating conversations with your friends through, you know, these catch-up calls, but it's not like, what do you do today? What do you do yesterday? Like, just hitting this with this? It's like, oh, this is an interesting topic. Let's, let's talk. And it's through the active conversation that you're just getting kind of a portal into someone's brain. And that's giving you the data and the information that checks the boxes of like, where are they from? Where do they go to school? What, to get to understand how someone sees the world and thinks? Yeah, absolutely. Interesting dialogue is I think what, quote unquote, good small talk should accomplish if that makes any sense. Exactly. Yeah, just like a catalyst like where you from can actually become a really interesting conversation with the right person. Yes. Yeah. So like, maybe it's not about, let's get rid of small talk, but it's maybe more about how do we think about the purpose of people who are not effortful when they do small talk. I think that's the problem. Like, they're like, oh, they're rolling their eyes at like small talk, but the thing is like, small talk has to become big talk through you. Yes. Where like, you can't just like get to like a deep conversation with someone. But I will say like, in my salon, it does feel like there's like some kind of shortcut. And I think it might be because like you kind of skip over the small talk framing and it's like, I grew up poor. Like, that immediately is kind of like, whoa, that's like you wouldn't say that usually in small talk or like on a date, it's kind of like, cutting to the core of what you really mean. And like maybe, maybe that's the secret to getting out of small talk quicker and into like the meaningful conversation. But I think there's also just like some people that are not capable of it. So can it be something that is learned or is it more innate? I don't know. I think anyone can learn it, but maybe, but I think it does. It's kind of like, it just comes more naturally to some people. Yeah. That's a good point. I think what holds a lot of people back from being that forward and up front is just fear. It's fear of judgment. It's fear of how they're perceived. But if and this comes back as this full circle to my TikToks on men not approaching women, like, we don't have a tolerance for discomfort or be able to, you know, tolerate any sort of rejection. So how how can you build strong meaningful relationships, romantic and platonic, if you're not willing to be vulnerable? Like if and I had another, I had a conversation about this this past weekend with friends of mine. And we were reflecting on a mutual friend that we shared and how that friendship has dissolved because that person had this inability to be vulnerable. And it's like, how can I say you're my best friend or you're one of my closest friends when you will never open up to me. And there's a difference between being private and wanting to process things on your own timeline. Like I don't think every friend needs to know every single thing about you. But if you're not like, if you don't have the confidence or like just the ability to be open and have any sense of humility, you can't, it's like a one-sided friendship. And those are the worst types of relationships to get involved in because it leaves you feeling empty and sad and drained in a way. No, I've had friendships like that too where you feel like they want to know what's going on with you, but they don't share anything about themselves. And it's the inverse of the problem when someone just like comes to you and talks the whole time and like trauma dumps on you and you don't get to say anything about yourself. It's like, those are maybe the two extremes of bad versions of friendship. But I mean, it's getting me thinking about again, like people like why do so many people dislike their friends, but not do anything about it. Maybe they're scared to make new friends, right? Like they'd rather stay with the devil that they know rather than approach when they don't. And I have occasionally get like, I think about this DM that this woman sent me where she said, she basically said, we should be friends. The videos you make and stuff you talk about, that's like the intellectual stuff that I like to talk about, but my friends are too dumb to talk about it. She basically said that and I was like, that's like a rude way to talk about your friends. And like it's kind of, in some ways, your friends are a reflection of you, right? But she was kind of saying like, you're on my level, we should be friends. I did not like it's DM just FYI. But I was like, yeah, I think that like there are other people like me out there. There's like a lot of people having interesting conversations, but it is kind of like on you to find them. I suppose in her way, she's shooting her shot by DMing me that, but it's not, I don't know, I don't know if that's like the way to do it, but I think one of my biggest pet peeves is when people are like, well, we should be friends. Like if you're at a party and people are drunk, we should be friends. Okay, like sure, but that takes work and also like why should we be friends? Like not to be mean, but genuinely why? And it's funny because like I, I actually tend to shoot my shot first in friendships. Like I will be the one to initiate a lot of the times. And some of my best friendships are the ones that I've initiated. But I think it's not because I'm like, oh, we should be friends, but it's like I'm going to take the effort and the time to go out of my way to be like, let's get a coffee. I'd love to learn more about you. And I think a lot of people are lacking curiosity. Like I think curiosity is probably one of the most important qualities to have to building a genuine relationship with someone. And a lot of people just don't have that. I don't know. I live definitely true. Or like, and I noticed when I was doing book signings where I like they would either have read the book already so they know the themes like private school and like kids like cutthroat parents trying to get their kids into Ivy leagues. And then people would come up to the table to get their book sign and they would just tell me about like their son and like how they had such a struggle getting into college or whatever. And like I'm signing the book so I'm like fine just there and listen, but it's kind of like a weird conversation where like it's just a line of 20 people like talking at me and like monologuing. I've been like in the situation to like I'm getting my book sign and find an author and I don't really know what to say. Like it's an awkward situation because you kind of get like a micro conversation opportunity. So I don't know those people for like giving me their monologue, but it's kind of like understand that the 20 people ahead of you line just told me the same thing about themselves. Right. And so it's like well then if you actually want to connect with someone it's maybe less about you and it's more about them. Right. Like if you want to make the connection in that way and you want it to be a relationship, but I suppose it's also like if you just want to tell me your thing and like get it off your chest then that's your or I'll get it as well. Right. Maybe not in the context of a book signing, but just generally speaking. You know, I agree with you that's the like let's be friends feels like it's trying to like circumvent the work of like that can happen, but we first have to like get coffee and make sure we like each other. Exactly. What do you think about this? Like if if I approached you and I was like let's get coffee and you were like okay, like I see potential for friendship here and then we go out. I'm relating it back to the TikTok. I was talking about earlier with the aggressive woman. And then we go a coffee and like it's fine. Like you don't need me in your life. And then a week later I text you and I'm like let's get coffee again. Let's have lunch this time. I would probably be oh my god. It's awkward right? It's really awkward. I would probably be like you know it was so so nice to meet you like that sounds great this week is oh maybe this is me being an avoidant. I don't know. I'd probably be like that's that's what you can yeah. You know, it's the hit. Exactly. I would never want to be like no we're not going to do that, but like it's just social etiquette like oh that's on you know thank you so much this week is actually kind of busy, but I'll I'll reach back out when I have the bandwidth to do that or when I when it's a better time and then I probably wouldn't be right. But if I'm persistent then like you have to either just like capitulate, but then you might be consenting to a friendship that you want to be like I've had this problem a couple times. I don't like this problem oh my god what was me, but it's like it is a very awkward social situation to be in. And I also think that like since we both make content and there are people with like pair of social relationships this is very far from fame. I'm not saying that I'm Miley Cyrus, but there is like this kind of weird element of there's enough like off-colored things have happened to me via social media, strangers posting online that I like feel a little bit guarded and when someone's approaching approaching me and I spent like if you're another author or if you're you have a podcast and you want to invite me on like I kind of feel like I understand that there's almost like a quid pro quo exchange in like a wholesome way or like if it's just a random person who says we should be friends let's have coffee it feels like okay like what are you giving me then? I'm already giving you all my content all the hours I spend posting this stuff on the internet now you want like you want to connect in real life like I don't necessarily think that we would connect just because you say so like right. That's interesting this brings up something I've been thinking about this past weekend of my friends telling me you know like I think all relationships are transactional and I was like that's cynical don't say that you know and I was thinking about it in the context of the work environment because as I continue to grow in my career and I want to manage people like I don't think that your employees will do a good job if you make them feel like it's a transactional relationship but then he like kept pulling back the unlayers and I was like okay so is everything transactional but that feels so cynical like that's so anti-my perspective but in a way to your point like it's like what are you giving me like in the context of this that we're doing a podcast and it's going to be online and on my platform I'm gaining something but then my followers are also gaining something and you're gaining something at the same that like we are creating value. Right. But I think like, create value just for the sake of having a conversation. Does everything have to create value? Transactional is such a negative word, right? It has a negative connotation, but I don't, like the transaction I went to dinner with a newish friend last night. The transaction was like fun. Like we both had a good time. She's a company. She's funny. I hope that she would say the same thing of me. To me, that is the transaction if you want to call it that. And like, that makes me think of it as less cynical because like when the transaction is like connection, it's like I feel like that, like warm feeling you get when like you really like connect with someone, you have a wonderful conversation. Like that's what I got out of it. Doesn't have to be publicity. It doesn't have to be views on my post, right? But I think there is something to the idea that things are transactional. When I had my kind of clumsy friend break up that I initiated, I remember she replied back and said, well, I'm sorry this friendship isn't serving you anymore. And like I kind of don't love that. Like they're a p-talk line. And I hadn't said that. And I didn't like, it was a very quick kind of like yeah, curt ending up the friendship. But I did like kind of shave against line of like I didn't say this friendship not serving me. Like I've actually not been served by this friendship for many years now. And if that were my criteria, I would have entered a long time ago. So like I was a little bit like, like you're making it sound like I'm not getting anything out of it all of a sudden. So I'm cutting you off where I was like, to be frank, I hadn't been getting anything out of it for a while. But I like persisted because of obligation and because of history. And it's hard to admit that to yourself because you don't want it to be true. Yeah, there's a point in time when you, you know, connect it differently to that person. It's a very very hard line to walk. But I guess as life continues to unfold, this is the point. Like it is, we learn about ourselves in relation to other people. So every experience that we have is I think mirroring something within ourselves or it's pushing us to the next chapter. So as painful as it can be and just an uncomfortable, like it really is all growth. It really is all learning. And that is the positive reframe that I like to give these types of experiences in life. I do have one other question before we kind of pivot more to like the happiness dialogue part of the interview. But we had talked about this earlier. I shared with you that as someone who creates content, my goal is for someone to look at my Instagram video and to feel a certain way and to meet me in real life and to feel the exact same way, to have no discrepancy between the way I'm perceived online and the way I'm perceived in real life. And I've been told by people who have met me first digitally and then have built a relationship with me in person that there is continuity in my personality, which to me is like the highest honor, the biggest compliment I am so grateful for that reflection. But it's like to what extent can that 100% be true? Because of course social media is performative. There's a reason why I bought a brick. I need to stop living my life through an Instagram story. And I need to just start walking down the streets and thinking my own thoughts and not feeling this impulsive need to post a story about it. You know, like I tried to be so cognizant about it and yet I still fall victim to it. And then I also get frustrated with people who are like oversharing stuff on social media. But then I'm kind of becoming one of those people. So, or at least trying to not. So my question to you is, do you also have a similar objective? IRL, Santa Bell is the same as the video of Santa Bell that you see on TikTok. It's very interesting to me that you that you can strew it as a compliment when people say like it's one to one because I always talk about my TikTok like a little disparagingly to be honest where I'm like it's so reductive and the things that I say in order for them to have like vital potential, I have to flatten them so much. And so in fact, I kind of don't stand by the things that I say in my TikTok. And like my my editor who just acquired my latest book, she like loved my TikTok. And I was very concerned about that. I was like, if you love my TikTok in a way, I think that my writing, you might not like it. It might feel like denser. It might feel too like long winded. My TikTok is made to be like short attention span, like kind of like junk food of the mind. And so like honestly, I was kind of worried about like her tastes or what she thought was like sophisticated thinking because I really dumb it down on TikTok. Luckily, that's on the case. She's a very sophisticated thinker and she like like my book for being its own thing. I'm as able to separate between the two. But I've never asked anyone like, okay, you mostly know me from online. Now you've met me in person. But I would be curious to hear what they say. But I think like I do for select videos, especially if I'm ranting about something. And it is kind of just like negative. And I'm not pretending to be like, but I see the positive in it. And I see like how other people would think that I'm just going like for the jugular. In those, like it's almost sort of like snarky bitchy persona. And so I certainly would hope that is someone that made me in real life. Not that I'm like such a nice kind like a reo sunshine person. It's more just like that that is like a slice. Maybe William. But I do think it's so fascinating that you're like trying to align that one to one as a goal. Yeah. But I also agree with what you're saying. Because when I post stuff on TikTok, it feels very dumb down. And I'm like, this scratches the surface of what I really want to talk about. And that's why I've actually felt very resistant to posting on Instagram. But just POV videos of myself for a long time. Because it feels like so reductionary. That's a word I hope from reductionist. It feels very reductionist from what's actually going on in my brain and like the depth of the thinking. So maybe I'll rephrase my initial point. It's less about maybe the content of what I'm sharing online versus IRL. But it's more I want people to feel the same way around me in person as they do when they see a video. Okay. That's really interesting. I just said it's less because then it's not a problem of intelligence. We are necessarily dumbing down our content. But the personality traits that come through in the warmth that feels off. I feel like what you're describing is more of a concern about authenticity. Like you meet me in person. I want to. But I hate that work. I mean, it's become completely. Yeah. If anything, I hope people think that I'm nicer a little bit. Because in some videos, I watch it back and I'm like, wow, I really seem like a raging bitch. But in a weird way, I think people are also drawn to that too. And so maybe it's a nice surprise when they show up to my salon and I'm not really like that. But it's almost like I'm being alienating on purpose because the video is rage bait. Like there are some videos that I've made that are just like pure, pure rage bait. And it is sort of gratifying to like pull the strings and see the puppet dance. It's like, I know what's going to get to you people. I know what you're insecure about. Like it's it's so easy to like push your buttons. Yeah. And then watch the views go up. But I do think that those videos don't have my book sales. So I'm not doing that as much. And isn't that interesting? You would think it would. But in there's it's not guaranteed one-to-one correlation. And the same way that my rage bait videos of these men, these in cells on TikTok, it's not like I've increased my listenership on my podcast. Right. So the algorithm is actually like a completely independent factor. And it's just like it's purely monitoring for engagement. Doesn't know if it's good engagement. Doesn't know if it's bad engagement. So that's something I have to keep realigning with where it's like what type of videos are actually helping me get to my career goals. Definitely not rage bait. Yes. This is that I can 100% agree with. Lots to think about. I feel like my brain is spinning and in the best way possible. So thank you for all of these stimulating ideas and thoughts and reflections over the past hour. You know, it is obvious why we're talking about relationships today and on my platform because our relationships directly contribute to our well-being, to our happiness, to our life satisfaction. There's tons of research that supports this. But it's also become the common denominator of the responses that I hear from my guests. When I ask them questions about how they define happiness and what brings them endorphins and where are their sources of joy in life. So on that vein, I would love to hear from you first, how do you define happiness and what is your relationship to having a happy quote unquote happy persona. For me, like when I think about the things that bring me joy and bring me happiness, it's pretty much only friendships. Like I'm a writer. I get a lot of fulfillment. I get a lot of meaning and satisfaction and contentment out of my work. But I don't like when I sell a book, I don't feel happy. In fact, I like all the negative things kind of sweep in after like that split second of relief. And like relief and happiness are the same thing. I think about all my students that I help with college essays. When they get into their dream school, it's not really happiness. It's it's relief because they're scared of shame and they're scared of rejection. So like I really separate between those two things. And when I think about the relationships that are like meaningful to me and the moments that I felt joy in the past month, it's all been like I had a really great conversation with my husband or how to really nice dinner with my friends. And I was trying to articulate this again in this essay that I'm working on, where you almost feel when you have like a really great like connected conversation with friends, you almost feel like you would call for something. And like I likened it to when you finish a challenging book that's really good. Like you kind of feel like there's some achievement there. And like when I go out with friends and have like one of those nights that it's every once in a [BLANK_AUDIO] mood where you just feel like this is like the meaning of friendship and this is the meaning of life. And it's such a good feeling but you can't orchestrate it. Like a lot of factors have to line up, you have to be in the right mood, your friend has to be in the right mood. Like these are kind of the stats or friendship where you hope like if I see this person enough once every three times we meet up, we're going to have like one of those amazing conversations. But it doesn't always happen because like life gets in the way. But I a lot of what we're talking about is making me think of this moment that was kind of embarrassing in high school. And I was in English class with my high school boyfriend. And we were like very in love. Like this was a very like publicly in love relationship. And our teacher was telling us about a study that he had read about happiness and how the only thing that had been shown to like raise your happiness if it's plateaued is consistent meetings with friends over time. And then my boyfriend raised his hand and was like, does it have to be friends? Can it be like a girlfriend? I was like so mortified. I was like shut up. And like very much know like I think that a friendship is very different than a romantic relationship. And I feel that too because of course I love my husband so much. I'm very in love with him. But it is like I get something different out of it when I go out with a friend. It's really not the same thing and it can't be substituted. Yes. I recorded a video about this and I've also written a substack about this. But it's it comes back to again like I'm pretty sure it was Aristotle who said this. I can't keep my Greek philosophers on the intracon track in my brain. But it was along the lines of platonic love being the highest form of love. And being also I think the root of like a really deep romantic relationship. But when you think about your female friendships, like your platonic friendships in life, those give you something so different than your romantic relationships. And a healthy romantic relationship can give you so much and that's a blessing to have that. But if you rely on that as your only source of joy, it turns really unhealthy really quick. Which is why we need those other types of relationships in life to balance to keep us balanced. Oftentimes a lot of people, especially at the early stages of dating, we get so invested in this other person bringing us what we think is happiness, which in the moment for sure. But we it's easy to lose sight of our own sense of self and the things that ground us. Finally, I mean my hot take is that if you wouldn't be friends with your spouse, you should not get married. That was my that was my video. There's a career. I'll send it to you. His name's Preston Rack on Instagram. He does street interviews like asking people like their hot takes on love or like what's the thing you've learned about love and my my sound bite was well there were like two but what made what made it to the video was your partner shouldn't just be your partner. They should be your best friend and like not every best friend should be your partner, but like your partner. Fundamentally should be your best friend. Okay see that I actually, did you follow Josh Laura tell these because he I actually don't agree with the they should be your best friend part and she's like very impassioned about it. I think that in my mind what I'm caliber into is like I know a lot of people who would not even be like casual friends with their spouse. Like there's nothing aligned them really except marriage. And I think that if you wouldn't be friends with your spouse like in a it could be like a casual like large friend circle that we're speaking of hypothetically like that says something about like your sensibilities not lining up. I think that it's when it comes to being like your best friend I feel like that is asking too many functions from one single person, but that's my take. I know a lot of people fit the same as you. Interesting. I'm gonna think about that because it also kind of aligns with what I was saying before like you shouldn't place all of yourself worth and everything into one person. Like maybe you're trying to. So maybe I'll rephrase maybe it's not best friend, but I think that should have. Well okay this is interesting because I heard someone asked me recently like who's your day one? Like best friend let's say. And I thought of one person like I thought of the friendship that's in LA and we have this longest in friendship, but like I don't have just one best friend. I have multiple very close friends in very different ways. So maybe I'm inclined to actually agree with you that your partner shouldn't maybe best friend is not the right word. What I'm trying to get out is like I mean best friend is like a elementary school like it's not a good label to keep into your adulthood because it doesn't always apply. I do have like one single raining best friend that like everyone knows that Jerry is my best friend right. This is like almost it's almost part of my brand. Like he appears in my content or like I'll reference him off hand and my husband knows that this friendship is like very sacred and it's in some ways I think though that like with let's let's talk about like straight relationships. I'm thinking about this episode where Monica is talking about Rachel being her best friend and then she gets very offended when Chandler says that Joey's his best friend and she's like aren't I your best friend and Chandler's like yes, yes sorry sorry sorry if I do where it's almost like there's an expectation that the woman is allowed to have her own separate best friend but for the man and like I think this is interesting regarding like male loneliness epidemic and just like the way male friendship functions very differently like it is acceptable for the man to say like my best friend is my wife or my girlfriend and like there's almost this feeling that it should be. That is such a good point. Come back to me on this one because I need to think about that. Come back to me on this one. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm not trying to persuade you. I'm gonna I'm gonna think on this and then we're gonna have a part two. Because I've never actually thought about that before and I don't know how to respond and I want to think about what I would say in response to that because it's interesting when you think about it that way like it's okay for the woman to be like yeah this this is my girl best friend but God forbid it. I feel like for women the title has a lot of weight like yeah a swamish drama over like made of honor versus bride's maid. I think that and ship amongst women is so important. And like to a degree I don't want to generalize too much or maybe just simply not as important to men but so like that title takes on just this importance where you become defensive over and you're like that's my best friend. Don't call her your best friend. Like I'm in the number one top slot. Well this reminds me of just being an elementary school and it was like who's your best friend. Like why is there so much weight placed around who is your best friend? Maybe the rhetorical question will leave the listeners to think about that one. My last question for you which you kind of already answered but maybe you have a different response to this. Something that I ask every guest on the show and I'd love to hear your thoughts and in your response to what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day. Mine is your friendships but like maybe it's a practice or a ritual or just one thing that you do every day that like makes you happy. It gives you the dose of endorphins. I'll start this with I am such a discontent and unsatisfied person and that's what gives me my motivation in life so I don't even necessarily want to dilute that. Like I'm always mad about something and like my husband's like version of like how's your day is like what's your problem today right? Like and I always have like a litany of things that I need to like catch him up on. Endorphins. I'm like maybe I'm just severely locking in endorphins. I read a lot like I have to read every day to feel okay with myself and this author I was speaking to yesterday at least I and she was like mono thinking and she was like that's why you like feel that need because all day long you're like multitasking your head and I try not to but I can't help it but I feel like when I'm reading I have to be focusing and it's like mono think I didn't even know there's a word for that now but perhaps that's the closest things that I get to like an endorphin rush because I hate exercising and I really don't stop very much anymore. I love sweet things but like I hate procuring meals like one of my gripes every single day to my husband is like I waited until I was starving to get lunch and then I got something horribly and healthy and then I felt so sick like I tell him this pretty much like every single day. That's so funny. This is not my like thing either. Yeah well reading is a great answer because essentially what you're telling me is that it grounds you and it creates a sense of calmness and the funny thing about endorphins unlike serotonin you know serotonin and dopamine happiness like that's what we think of when we think of happiness but endorphins actually are the pain killer so really I didn't know that. Yes and the whole thesis around what I talk about with happiness is is that it's not about toxic positivity it's not about just infusing like blind joy and everything is sunshine and rainbows that's not actually what makes us happy in life that's kind of a naive view to take endorphins that is the right word that we should be thinking about when we formulate a more rich philosophy of joy and of happiness because the reality of life is that life's gonna happen, shit's gonna hit the fan and there's always gonna be challenges so it's like how do you show up knowing that a challenge is on its way to you. How do you remain optimistic, how do you remain resilient. despite the circumstances that are surrounding you. And what I love about endorphins is that they are the chemical released in the body and the brain that help reduce pain. And life is hard. So what can we do to just like make it a bit better? And by doing that, it's reducing the pain. So reading reduces a little bit of that pain. Mono thinking, was that the term? - Yeah. - Mono thinking is your endorphin hit. And it's the byproduct of that is that it creates a little bit of calmness. Because when you can just create like 10% of calmness that actually like produces joy as the byproduct. So that's the way I like to think about it. Rather than necessarily like seeking out the things that hit the dopamine, it's like, what can I do to just calm down so that I'm more open and receptive to all the good things around me? That's what I've come to learn over the past five plus years of the podcast is really like diving deeper into the word of endorphins. And like actually what does it mean when we talk about how? - Right. - Tell me that the beginning I might have even like thought of a different answer. What's the craziest answer you've gotten for someone's endorphin hit? - I mean, it's not crazy, but my parents listen all the while, but sex. - Not a crazy answer. - So that one was a fun one. But a lot of it, you want to know like a good, this is maybe more like serotonin or something. I'm featuring them. But like when I leave my friend a really good, like a whole lairious voice memo, that does it for me. I'm like, you're welcome for your podcast today. - Yes. And those are the 20 minute voices. It's literally sending a personalized podcast. When I receive those, it's so much joy to receive that from friends. - Yeah, the common denominator, even from the silly wild answers, it's like the things that make us feel connected to ourselves and to other people. And I think that is so beautiful. And it ties in so well to everything we've talked about today and to all the themes that you have been exploring in your writing. I'm so excited for your book to come out. I guess in a year, but time goes fast. So it's on its way. That being said, where can my listeners connect with you and follow along perhaps parasocially? (laughs) - I'm inevitably parasocially on Instagram and TikTok. My handle's the same, sanabal.ink. And if you're in New York City and you want to come to my salon, then on my website, I have a mailing list there. And I'm trying to get a brand sponsors for the next one so that it's free. But it's a fun night. And I will say like it's less me-centric than it might sound. It's like you really come to meet the other women and talk about class, wealth, privilege. It's a really good group. And I've been so happy to see that. There's a lot of repeat people. So if you're in a city, would love to see you there. - I love that. And if you come, you might be surprised by how kind and nice - Sanabal is in the middle. - You might heard digital persona. Well, I definitely would love to attend. So I will be on the lookout for all of those things. But it was so wonderful having you on the show. Thank you again for being here. - Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. (upbeat music)