EP #176: Shira Lazar on Creativity, Mental Health, and Life Inside the Creator Economy

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness in daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stafnopoulos. And this week I'm thrilled to share that I had Cheryl Azar on the show, who is a media entrepreneur and one of the true OGs of the creator economy, who's been building online since before personal brands were even the thing. Sheer is the founder of what's trending, she writes the alpha newsletter, which is a really popular newsletter on LinkedIn, and she has been leading really powerful work at the intersection of creators, wellness and mental health through her creators for mental health initiative. And in this episode, we talk about Sheer's career evolution from traditional media to the early online video and blogging days to the way that her career has evolved over time and how the media landscape has completely changed to the creator economy. We also talk about the intersection between mental health and creators, why creator mental health is struggling right now. Sheer has such an amazing perspective on what we can do to improve mental health for creators specifically and where that creative process comes from, how to actually engage with our phones in a way that is conducive inspiration rather than draining us and leaving us feel depleted. And of course, since this is a podcast about happiness, Sheer and I talk about what brings her into orphans, how she defines happiness and ways she cultivates moments of joy in her life. But before we dive in, we're a reminder to like, rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform that you prefer. And this is actually the last episode of 2025. I am so thrilled to think about the way that I want to evolve my content in the new year. And I think that landing this year, specifically having Sheer on is just such a beautiful way to kind of round out 2025, especially as I think about the ways that I want to grow and evolve my content in the new year. So what better way to end than to have an expert in the creator economy come onto the podcast and talk a little bit about her journey in the space and how the industry is completely evolving over time. All right, let's get into the episode. Hi Sheerah, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It is so great having you here. Yeah, I'm so happy we made this work. Yay, excited. I know. We met, I think, a year ago, at the, I want to say it was the founder made innovation summit in LA, like literally November of 2024. It's over a year. Yeah, yeah, technically a little over. And then we got reconnected and I saw you present and speak at Cann earlier this year, which was amazing. And so kind of in the past year, I feel like I've just been following along everything that you've been doing, especially in the creator economy and supporting creators and their mental well being. And obviously it's someone who is a creator. It's been amazing to kind of see from the sidelines and also think about how our people out there are trying to support mental health resources in the creator economy because it's just completely evolved over the past few years. But, you know, I'd love to kind of start really from the beginning and have you walk my listeners through your journey, career path, you've gone through so many chapters from seeing media from like a very traditional landscape to how it's evolved today and the way that your career has shifted over time. So tell us a little bit about that journey and kind of how you got started in the media space. And now, although amazing work that you're doing more into the creator economy world. Yeah, thank you. I so appreciate that. Yeah, when I started in Kimata, LA, to age myself in 2004, I wanted to be a host. I'd study communications. Like I looked up to Ryan Seacrest and Oprah and Barbara Wolters and there's the people I grew up watching. I hadn't studied journalism. I kind of like sped through college because of some transfer credits from Montreal where I'm from at any rate. But I was auditioning for a lot of stuff because at the time you either go local or you audition and get a job, right? Social media was not around. And I wasn't really getting those jobs. And I was trying to update my sizzle reel and I would fake it. Like I would create fake situations as if I had done a show or video. Kind of the beginnings of not just fake it till you make it which is like own who you are and building the brand of you. I was definitely doing that in a time where people did not understand that. But in building my sizzle reel, I ended up meeting a lot of people and one of the folks I met happened to know someone at wiremj.com. Wiremj was the largest celebrity photo agency in the world at the time. And it ended up getting bought by Getty Images but they were just starting their video division. So online video and being able to post a video online like that day or that night from a big event was a new thing. And so I said I'd interview celebrities. They asked me and I just said yes. It's not like I'd done a ton. But again, all about the confidence and just saying done something. Not waiting for it. 'Cause if you're gonna wait for that perfect moment, it's probably not gonna happen. And I did make a lot of mistakes along the way or just missed steps I would say. But then I learned and then I would, I kind of put aside the imposter syndrome anxiety that was still there or the idea of, oh, I needed to be the best or be super advanced to say yes to something. Which I think a lot of people wait and do that. And then before they know it, like they're not really getting the opportunities that they want or it's taking forever. Especially I would say women. So I said yes to things before maybe I was fully ready. Ignorance is bliss, also youth. And I started working for a lot of the websites in Los Angeles at the time again, very early. So while I was still trying to get that traditional media job and getting close and I actually did at the time get hired for a website that became a TV show. So I host the show and NBC. And then I also became a talking head on about Genetworks talking about entertainment news. But all of that happened because I was present online. A TV book at the time saw my website and was like, oh, let's have her on. This is normal now, but you have to imagine 15 to 20 years ago how early that was and having a website even people are like, what are you selling? And I'm like, I guess I'm selling myself. I'm giving people a backstage look at my process, what I do. So people were intrigued, but I wouldn't say they thought it was crazy. They were just like, okay, do you? Like this is cute. But clearly I now in hindsight, I will own that I was seeing something and leaning into something that was going to be part of the future. And that was early moments of building my personal brands. And of course social came around. And in your I started being the go to for a lot of websites and mobile anyone in digital that needed a host, someone to create content for their companies or interview people, I became that go to person in LA. And then also as just traditional media came in to recognize that a little by little that also, you know, it helped because I had had a bit of a more traditional media background. And so my ability to bring in that knowledge and professional realism, but then my understanding of digital and my enthusiasm for it really helped as the time progressed. And then I launched, you know, I launched what's trending my company originally out of a gig that I had created for myself at CBS News. I was the first blogger blogger because I'd been experimenting with vlogging on my phone. Again, now very normal. No one was doing it. No reporters were doing it at the time. And so I pitched CBS News that I wanted to start my own vlog blog and they're like somehow, someone said, yes, there was not a position available. I created the job basically. And then from seeing the success of that, that's when what's trending I pitched that I still owned the IP. So once we launched it and we got a lot of attention and some stuff happened between me and CBS News that like we were we ended up separating, I took the IP and then I continued building it myself and that was in 2011. So I've had what's trending for over a decade and then also building out my personal brands as a creator as well. And so it's been a journey which led me to working more around in the wellness and mental health space because of just what I was experiencing in my own journey. Yeah. And then I think it really came to a head last year where I had the opportunity in 2024 to build out an event around mental health, wellness and for creators. And so I called it creators for mental health. And it was successful. A lot of great responses. And then I said, oh, we should do one in New York. Did one in New York? Again, same. And I said, oh my god, I think there's something here. And this is actually something that resonates with me because it basically is everything I love. Like I love the creator space. I love mental health. I love talking about all this stuff. I love these supportive spaces. And then the initiative really grew from there to what it is now, which is still very much the beginnings. You know, it's interesting because like you were kind of an OG creator, right before there was language to any of this. I know you've come out with a few research reports and you have this amazing newsletter that I subscribe to on LinkedIn called the Alpha. And it's like all these trends and insights on the creator economy. And what is so apparent now? is how creators mental health is like really struggling. And what I'm curious to hear more about from your own perspective is like, you kind of created that job like you mentioned earlier, like the vlogging, the blogging, didn't really exist back then. And you naturally loved that type of work. So you were a creator in essence at that time in your career and in your life. But doing those activities then, my hunch is that it wasn't impacting your mental health in the way that now when you think about creators and we're on our phones, it's like this social media component that is what is so hard. This like internal tension that I think a lot of creators face is that we know that social media and technology is horrible for our mental health. But in order to build a business, build a social presence online, you have to leverage the tools and the platforms that are designed to burn you out and are designed to hurt your mental health. So, you know, I think about Instagram in 2013, when I launched the Everyday Endorphins Instagram before the podcast, I didn't feel like my mental health was hurting. Like, there was no concept of comparison trap on an Instagram like, you know, at that time, because it didn't the platform didn't exist in the same way that it does now. So what would some of your reflections be on like, why now is it that our mental health is struggling in this creator world versus if we were doing these practices, you know, 10 years ago, it was really a type of work that just lit us up. And there was really not a concept of like, oh, my mental health is struggling as a creator. Yeah. So interesting. Because I do think the entertainment industry at large being a creative and being a talent is challenging, right? Like, there's no surprise when you hear people having mental health issues. Because so much is outside of your control, there is that comparison. Maybe it's not the level of social media where you're seeing in your face, you know, having to do the castings and that whole stuff definitely impacts people's self-worth, right? And even when you do succeed, you're always looking for the next thing, you're only as good as your like the latest thing you're doing and it's never good enough, right? So like, the success, celebrity, entertainment, Hollywood, trap is a real thing. And actors and musicians and musicians in particular have gone through so much when it comes to mental health as well. So we know all of that and how challenging it can be. So I did experience a lot of that when I was coming up because I would, yeah, again, going up for jobs and not getting them and that's hard and then looking for your next gig. That was happening. If anything, when social media came up, there was a platform to then express yourself and do the work without waiting, right? The more these tools started popping up, which is very empowering in some ways. The difference was also the lot of these platforms popping up. Even the smaller ones I remember, there was always still money. They would always pay you, right? So they're always like, what's your rate? Some of them were lower, some of them, but I remember I would be working for everyone from a Verizon to an emerging Hollywood website. And I don't ever remember it like, maybe there was, there was a few where I was, I was wanting to maybe attend an event to get a press pass. And so I did it for free, right? But most of them when they reached out to me, it was like, okay, we could pay this. I just don't remember anything being asked to be done for free. And because there was a bit of an understanding of labor, even though it's not to say people didn't take advantage during those times, of course. Right. I think the more than people it opens up and there's access and democratization, well, that's such a beautiful thing. It starts becoming, well, you would do this for yourself. This helps you. I can help you. You help me. It's all in kind. Then there starts to be a bit of the power dynamic shift of, well, yeah, but there's always this, someone that has the upper hand. And I always say whoever has the upper hand in the scenario needs to contribute. It's always a power dynamic. So like, if I'm talking to someone and I know, I mean, not to say if someone makes a ton of money, like, I won't, that, then they need to pay. But if you know you're the bigger company or the person that has more of the power in the dynamic approaching an individual or someone who has an independent company, I believe there's a responsibility maybe depending on where you are, you can't pay the crazy rates or how much budget you have. But there's a responsibility to say like, here's what I could give you because I recognize that you want to do the work. You need the work. And I have the opportunity. I need your time and energy and resources, especially when it's a bigger company. I think there's even more responsibility. I think it's amazing. I always laugh when I get approached by a company that it's very public how much they make or how much they raise. Not to say that means that's their whole budget or a public company approach me and actually ask for free labor because they could do this. I could do this. I go, yeah, but it's not the same. This is not apples to apples. If we are two companies coming together and saying, yeah, we're going to contribute this and build something together totally. That is not. And even if it was Microsoft and Nvidia, I don't know. Like there would be an exchange, which there is. That's why all these companies are making money. They're just paying each other off constantly in circles. So I just don't understand why that doesn't happen in that dynamic. When it's there's so less to lose, more to gain, including good juju. That's what I think ultimately and I haven't necessarily reflected on this before. So I'm not just sharing things that I talk about all the time. But that is when I do think about that, that is the reality. When I approached CBS News in 2008 and said, I have this idea and I want to contribute. You know what he said to me? And at the time, now I look back and I'm like, what an amazing deal. That's so sad. How much are in a place how sad it is right now. So this is, I approached the editor in chief and he goes, I don't have a job, but it's not a lot. But I could pay you $4,000 a month for a weekly post and a video. And at the time, I was like, that actually wasn't a lot because you know, like now look back, I'm like, wow, that's actually a really good deal to have a platform like CBS News be able to post whatever you want. And you're going to pay me $4,000 retainer. Wow. But we've gone to such a bad place where people are just expecting free shit that that that becomes like, oh, well, that was great, which is sad to say, you know, to approach any news organization, especially now, maybe because media is falling apart, but there's still deals happening. Let's be clear. The fact that they would say, well, no, we don't have even that budget. Or but you could do guest poster. You could do like, let's do a collab. Like that's probably the go to it's just sad. So that's I ultimately feel like that, that approach, that mindset plus adding the fact that we have these platforms, which create so much opportunity yet so much opportunity. Like it's just a never ending hose of, I would say, possibility. I think it's beyond what our minds can even wrap our heads around. And so we can't expect these platforms and tech companies to create the boundaries for us, even though we like that. It would be easier. We need to do it for ourselves. And that's just a lot, it's a lot all around self accountability. It's a lot of self advocacy when you're putting energy into something you're not getting an equal amount back. All of that treats burnout. And then add in, as you mentioned, the comparison, the mental toll of looking at your feed of screen time, that's a lot. And a lot of people side eye me when I talk about creator mental health. So like, oh, boo, like, what about all of us? You guys are hurting our mental health. And I'm not saying it's one or the other. What I'm saying though is I feel like it's unfair to on one hand celebrate and boast about and put the creators in this industry on a pedestal while not looking at what's actually happening behind the scenes and under the hood. It's irresponsible. Yeah, 100%. I agree. And I think this is why I'm so happy that we're doing this interview, because it's bringing color and it's bringing your newsletters to life that I'm following along. You're touching on not only the comparison mindset that these platforms really kind of perpetuate, which we know is detrimental to our wellbeing. But what you're also talking about is how a lot of brands and bigger companies are not there's no like equitable pay, let's say, or like the way in which they approach and treat the creator, these monetization opportunities and theory should be robust. But it's also like, creators are kind of getting taken advantage of them. There's not a lot of transparency around how much you should be kind of expecting and pitching for yourself. It's in my view, it's kind of like a new form and like world of entrepreneurship. Creators aren't just like creating content just to make content like it is you're building a business, building a platform. It's so in my eyes, the creator or space is a form of entrepreneurship hands down. And I see it in the way that I am building my podcast and the way that I'm kind of expanding content beyond the show, but on social media across Reels and TikTok and all these other modalities. Something I've also reflected a lot on that I think it relates to your topic on boundaries and just broadly around this understanding how our mental health as creators can be really sacrificed. You know, something I think a lot about is this need to constantly be on my phone and to live my life, but for these experiences that I have to be really like inspiration for content creation. And I personally don't want to live life through the perspective of like, well, you know, I have this experience happen and so I'm going to make a video about it. But it feels like it's hard to draw that boundary because I don't I would never want my friends or my family or in relationships like I would never want people around me to think that I am solely engaging with others just for the sake of creating content out of it. And it's a hard, it's a hard balance. And I'd love to hear from you. Has that thought ever crossed your mind? Like when you're making a TikTok video, I mean, I see the creator's basis like being an artist, think about the famous musicians and movie writers out there, like they're drawing on inspiration from their own life and what they know to be true. So the creative person, you know, has to take from their lived experience, but the boundaries can get really blurred. And I would just love to hear your reflections on that. And like, are there any boundaries that you have created in your in your life where you have that separation between personal and professional, but you're also allowing the personal to serve as inspiration for what you write and blog about and share through videos on social media. Oh yeah, there's a few things I want to respond to the first was about brands taking advantage. I don't think it's that hard this day and age to figure out what a rate is depending on the person in the platform. And I also don't think it's that hard to understand that maybe there might be individuals that have a bit more of a premium rate based on experience how long they've been been around their their name, their likeness, their alignments. And that all needs to be normalized. I would say what sucks is to, you know, 50% of brand conversations. And it's not just they lead to a result or even I would say less like there's a few brand conversations I had this year that, you know, led to something that was decent where I felt like probably out of like 50, only three or four or five maybe led to something where I felt like I was being taken care of and actually paid in a reasonable way. Some of them paid exactly what I wanted. Some of them was a bit under, but then they did some repeat business. And one, they totally, it was an amazing opportunity. Although when you look at all the deliverables, you're like, well, that makes sense. You add all that up, plus exclusivity plus this and that at any rate. It's sad that it's surprising to get a decent deal. And I'm only speaking for myself, there's some people that are in a bit of a flow. They're new. The past two years and they're in that kind of first cycle and wave. What's great about having been around. And this is like real talk is like, I've been around, I have, I had the ability to grow and be around. But then I also had people fall in different chapters and all of them are active right now. And so you kind of like, it's not like you're in a new flow and momentum of engagement. My newer platforms I am possibly like my newsletter and my LinkedIn, which is fun to grow something new and to know that is a very highly engaged niche community. At the same time, I get celebrated or I get rewarded for the numbers. So it's this balance between what I see as really, I think really valuable community that could be smaller numbers, but they're real and they care. And then like, these bloated numbers that brands and people want to say the number and then the reach and the impressions, even though they say, well, it doesn't matter. In the end, it does, right? And so I think that dichotomy is challenging and can be confusing. And that could also impact, you know, your your mental health, right? Yeah, there's that. I mean, I had a brand reach out to me recently. And they're a pretty big brand. And they're like, we want these two videos this that. And then my agent gave them a pretty typical rate. Cause I and also find out about your rate like you ask around, let's talk to each other creators talk to each other. And then you realize either your rate is too high. And if it's too high, and you want to own it own it, your premium rate, you know, or you might realize you're too low or you might realize you're right there. Or if you have an agent, I would say the agent isn't just there to like get you, it is there to get you as much money as possible. But they're also there for me, because they've a sense of the market they deal with agreements and contracts every single day. And the size of the creators and they know if you're being fucked over. So I had a brand, you know, recently today, and I was like, Oh, good, this is like a normal brand. So it's not going to be like they have a budget, they have a campaign. And so we set a number and they're like, that's too high. And it's like, okay, well, what is your budget? Like, you're asking for what my typical is. So tell us what your budget is. Like, why are you making us negotiate against ourselves and negotiate in the dark? If you have a specific budget in mind, and you know that it might not be my budget, just say the freaking number. Why is it that hard? This is the stuff that gets me so annoyed. Because it doesn't feel collaborative, it doesn't feel reasonable. And then it starts making you feel like this isn't really a community that wants to support one another and like have reasonable collaboration. That feels extractive, right? And when you're making me feel, I guess in this, I'll own it myself. We're going to talk about self reflection, like the discomfort around that. I just, it doesn't need to be that way. It could be like, what's your rate? Oh, we were thinking, were this really want to work with you? Would you make that work? Or but I totally understand and respect if you can't, but like let me let me decide what I want to and not want to do when it feels like, you know, that feels like a toxic, a bit of a toxic dynamic. So that's my word of advice for creators and brands. On the other side, you got me fresh, like I am fresh off these experiences. So it's a bit, I mean, well, that's the perfect time to get you because it's like fresh off the top of your mind. And like before you do answer the second part of my question, just a quick reflection that I had around this dichotomy that you brought up, people always ask me if they meet me for the first time, oh, you have a podcast like is it successful? And I get so annoyed over that question because it's like, okay, yeah, you can look on, you can look on Spotify and I have over 170 plus episodes. And I've been doing this for five years. Are the metrics, like let's say from like an optics perspective, do I have the 10k, the 100k, the 1 million followers? No. But to me, the ability to produce this type of content that I feel is incredibly valuable, like that's successful. The fact that I've worked with brands like Juice Press Allo, that's successful. And I don't have to have a bajillion followers for those opportunities to happen. And so I think even just like optically the way we see creators and the way that we prescribe value to certain things or not, or what we deem is successful, like I've had to do some work on that. And it's something I've really struggled with too. But now I feel like I'm like, okay, you know, what I'm doing is valuable. And there's so much success to be celebrated. And I do think that the people in the space that really create a strong brand for themselves, it really comes back to like consistency over time. Like it is not a quick win. It is not an immediate like spark of virality. Because what happens if you go viral and you don't have a community that they're going to come back to, like you really need to put the work over like I honestly think decades, like a very, very long time. So that's that's my own little museum and reflection on your first point. So real, I want to go to the second point, but I also want to just touch on that is this idea of like shifting and reframing what we look at as success. Like success. Could and should be the fact that you had an idea of something and you actually made it happen. That is huge. That is successful. That is living a life of success of not not letting your dreams pass you by and not just sitting on them. Right. I think that we have this idea, but that's not enough. And then if we always were in that mindset of that's not enough constantly in our life, we're then we're not enough. Like what kind of life? Yeah. And listen, I fall into that trap too. And then I have to remind myself like, did I come into this life to constantly make myself feel like shit? Like I don't think I came out of my mom's room. We like, hey, I don't know if you like shit here. I was like, you have to remind yourself of like the beauty and the possibility and like, and of course there's shitty things that happen in your life and and there's real shit. Okay. Yes. I'm let's just be clear about that. The nuance of that. Okay. But overall, I'm talking about our negative self-talk and the expectations you put on ourselves. And even, you know, I would say I'm even less hard on other people. Like when I see someone just do something and be excited about it enthusiastic without the care in the world, I'm like, wow, I want to, I want what they're having. Right. So, but then I'm the first one to be in a bit of a spiral. If I'm not hitting some of those goals or those numbers that I want to hit too. So that's a constant process of doing that work. Right. And then also understanding that you're in a business and playing it like a business game. And it's that's okay too. Right. While also, you know, doing things that feel authentic while also being a business. The more I started focusing on myself as a business, the also the more the world around me started taking it seriously versus like I'm just going to post-sensing videos and myself. Like there are a lot of people that have built organically and because it was like, oh, they're just posting and then before they knew it, they built community and all that. It was a bit different because I came into this wanting to be a broadcaster. So I was using these platforms to get jobs. It wasn't like, oh, looks like be random about it. You know, my reflection on that, 'cause that's really interesting too. You know, for me, I think it's been about like swallowing the ego a little, like swallowing the pride. For so long, I was like, well, if I put, if I post a podcast episode every week, five years later, of course, I will have blown up. And what I'm realizing, which is so interesting, is that people on social media are more interested in me filming a video, talking to the camera about something going on in my personal life, versus putting a clip of a podcast that let's say, I think the guest is brilliant, and I know we had a great conversation. And it's, so I've kind of had to be like, okay, I do know that the content I'm sharing is like amazing, because I know that these interviews are valuable, at least for me at the end of the day, but treating it like a business to what you're saying, I've had to kind of like, you know, bite my tongue and be like, okay, what's doing really well on TikTok is me talking about that men are not approaching women, and like men are lacking self-confidence. So I'm gonna lean into that. This is not a dating podcast, but if we're gonna look at the metrics and what people are biting onto, I have to tailor my content strategy for the growth of the business that I'm building. And it's not like I wanna be known for this necessarily, but if you're thinking about it from a business perspective rather than like, oh, I'm so creative, I just love the act of creating, I'm gonna throw whatever sticks at the wall. You kind of need to like bounce a little bit of both as what I'm starting to realize, and I'm also starting to change in my approach towards building this platform. - Yeah, and then if you're not gonna do that, at least just know like, okay, not everything's gonna hit, and you need to be okay with this. And that's hard. I do that too. People love my first person perspective. I have certain content or like fun, life staff, more raw, but then I'm also like, there's value in some of this other stuff. So I'm still trying to figure that out. And listen, I'm not the best at it or the perfect person to even know these solutions around this, because you know, there are people that do it so well and I look at at them like, how? Like, you do it well. Sometimes I also have too much of a tight grip on the things that I've imagined. And like really, I have an idea of what would work versus what's actually working and have a hard time shifting. It's like that stubbornness. I'm like, no, but it can't work. Like, we all do it more times and it's gonna work. And that's also where sometimes, you know, whether we chat to you or having someone else work with you, even a assist or, you know, be a social media support assistant, giving you that perspective and be like, this is boring. Or like, sorry, yeah, you know, this is how I think you can do it better. We all need that. And I really, I give folks their flowers who can do that alone and just know how to do it. But if you're not that person, if you notice that, get support. It doesn't hurt to get support, including you talk about it being a business. Well, if you're doing a business and recognizing like maybe you had some weaknesses, would you just try to hunker down on your weaknesses and do it alone? No, you'd get some support. So it's like also this stubbornness, I think also comes from a fear of failure. Like, oh, I don't want a pivot because if I pivot, that means I failed. And that's something I've struggled with. But I'm also learning pivoting is actually, I saw a LinkedIn post about this. And I love the language that was shared. And the idea was that pivoting actually brings you back to your purpose. So it's not like you're deviating or you failed or whatever. It's actually bringing you back in alignment. And maybe you didn't realize that this next step was what you needed to become more aligned to like what you're meant to be doing. So that's something I've been thinking a lot about recently. Letting go of like that discomfort. And again, everything's just information. If you look at everything in neutral as a remission and look at the things that it's not just about attention, but are you know, people are responding to. It's just shifting the mindset of, oh, people are responding. Awesome. Oh, I love this. Yeah. Like let's do more of this, right? Versus being stuck in why I'm going to focus on the few things that are not paying attention to. And why is it that working? Like it's so easy to focus on the why isn't that working versus the things that are working and double down on that. I think this is also why people, I mean, this is a topic for a completely different conversation. But I think this is why people stay in the wrong relationships for them. Because it's the desire to fix and to make it work, to make it work. But it's like, okay, maybe you're just like being too strict on yourself. Or you're more attached to the idea of something than what's right in front of you. And you would probably be in a more aligned relationship if you followed the qualities that actually are like the energy that like let you up. You know what I mean? But that's like a, that's a whole tangent that I can maybe say for TikTok. Yes, for real. You tapped into something. But I think that right now this week, I've noticed, even though I haven't even posted so much, I'm a bit feeling mentally depleted for my phone. And anytime I go on it, it's like that feeling of, I don't know, there's a bit of a mind, brain situation happening right now where I just feel depleted, right? And so for me, like after I record this, I do need to record some stuff, which is fine. And I do want to do an edit of a video, but I'm having some anxiety around it. It's not even like there's no reason to have anxiety around it at the same time. I need to let myself feel whatever I'm feeling, right? And so for me, it's though I'm going to approach it like it's work. I'm going to do it and get it over with because I know that if I don't, if I'm never going to put this thing up and I did put in the effort, I want to get it up there. So sometimes it is just about pushing through, understanding that you will sometimes feel uninspired and feel like shit. That is life. And sometimes you need to just, you know, if it is a business push through that as long as there's an ending, you're not doing it over a week or a month today is feeling a bit like that day. And sometimes it is just saying, fuck it. I don't want to do this and I'm not going to do it. It's not worth it, right? So only you can figure out what that is for yourself. Sometimes it's worthwhile to push through and there's great self worth on the other side of that. Sometimes when I get done with something that I was really annoyed of doing and I didn't feel like doing. I'm really proud of myself. That feels really good. And that momentum creates more momentum. And then sometimes I'm just like, no, I think I've done enough and I'm not feeling this and that's okay. And I also notice for me, sleep like I have not gotten a lot like probably decent sleep over the past few nights. That impacts me. I'm a very basic girl with my basic needs, right? Making sure I'm taking care of myself and I'm doing those things that I know put me in the right mindset is important. And then also not being so hard on myself that if I'm not feeling something and it's not feeling good to like put it down, put the phone down, you know, look out versus look down. Yeah. All those things are helpful. But you know, I today I'm going to try to work out. I'm not worked down a bit. So like also there's realities to that like the TikTok video. I feel like crap. I'll have you. Yeah. Have you drank water? How do you go outside when you're so overwhelmed to those fundamentals like you're describing or they're the first to go. So you're right. It's like you have to ask yourself those just check in. Have you had enough water today? Like that could probably solve a lot of your problems. Have you gotten restful sleep and like the night the right amount of hours? I couldn't agree more on those points. I wish I could say this like fancy response, but sometimes it's coming back to the basics. And then having moments like I really love kind of in the morning getting some like my social posting done with. So I'm kind of not thinking about it throughout the day. And then of course the day continues and there's some inspiration. Sometimes I'll just pick up my phone and shoot something, not thinking about what I look like my hair and all that. And sometimes I look back saying I could look better, but that's when it came out and sometimes those videos do better because it just felt it does feel so raw in the moment. They know you didn't think. And there's something kind of fun and special with that. It's like the anti-host by some of the best videos that I put on TikTok or when I have my like blue light blocker glasses in bed with like my red light on and I'm literally about to go to sleep. I recorded a video like that and then I put my phone down. I went to bed and I woke up and it got like 20,000 views and I was like, wow, that's great. There's such a minimal effort. It was amazing. And yesterday I recorded a video in a towel because I just got out of the shower which I'm like, okay, maybe I hope it doesn't get like kicked off TikTok for being inappropriate, but like I was, you know, covered obviously. But I'd like no makeup. I'd literally just finished showering and this video almost has 10,000 views, which for me is like a lot. But you know, that's great. No, I'm not rage baiting the really insecure man on social media. So something's working. Hey, find your niche. Find your niche girl. But you know, I agree. So I, yeah, I think it's all about testing and experimenting and throwing as much against the walls possible and then get then figuring out what works. Like, I would say that, you know, recently the best moment of my saw on TikTok with engagement. I'm not just talking about you. Like engagement is ultimately was when I did the 30 day 80 video experiment experiment. I didn't actually do 80 videos in 30 days. I tried and in the attempt, I started to find my audience again or like, it's like almost people started hearing me. I was like, oh, that's where everyone was. And I feel like I need to do that again. But then also like, there's a girl Erica Wenger. Do you know Erica? She was on my podcast. She yes. So I'm like really impressed by her. I think she's awesome. And she'll just shoot a bunch of videos in the office. And for me, I, I have to be like a certain mental state to do that. that because a lot of times, I don't know, it is the way my brain works. If I'm going from a Zoom, a call, follow up email, then to put up my, do a video quickly, it's just, and then I'm over thinking about it. I don't want to over edit it. Yes, it's hard for me. And so for me, I do the most of that without overthinking when I, again, I've got enough sleep. I've been in my own environment. I feel, you know, not so stressed out. I don't know, I get into this creative mode of shooting videos constantly. Sometimes when I'm traveling, but it's very, it's not consistent. I think that sometimes it is just working on that muscle, knowing and creating space for what time and effort you need to put in to do something. So long story short, each of us needs to know what that is for us, our baseline, right? What works, what our basic needs are that make us feel good, that make us show up for ourselves and others, make sure those are taken care of before we get into some fancy things, right? And then, of course, I would say, it's a basic level for me, at least blocking off time, knowing what in your day, you're going to do something. So at least it's there you can get it done with. And of course, that, and then that leaves room for moments of inspiration. And then I would say picking up your phone and just shooting without thinking about, is this going to be the perfect edit or hook, etc. The act and the muscle of just picking up your phone and sharing and communicating and then being able to edit it after, right? I think that is the best way to approach these types of things. And as a creator, how you nurture your creativity, we're also creating a framework for your business. I've noticed for me, I've tried to record videos at the office and I'm like, oh god, I'm being watched like, this is just not, this is not good. I need to do it when I'm like alone at home or I'm on a walk. And if I have the impulse to FaceTime a friend, nope, I'm going to record on my camera and then I'm going to post it online later after I like, I'm saying, sitting on the couch and I can edit it myself, you need to have the environment around you conducive to set you up to tap into your creativity, but also have the discipline to be consistent like as often as you can every day with these types of yeah, it's a it's discipline. Don't act like it just naturally happens. Yeah, some people are naturally more that type of person to do it well, maybe, but it takes work. It's a muscle. So start working that muscle if that's something you want to do. And then I also wanted to talk about the boundaries also of you as not just a creator, but a consumer, right, of this and just being aware of where inspiration moves into the doom scrolling zombie mode, right. And it's okay to tap in and to see what people are doing and get inspired. But then it, you know, only you know that moment. And I put this probably some data to back this where you go from, oh, I'm learning curious, open-minded to, oh, I'm now in doom scroll. 100% like I'm inspired. Oh, I feel like shit. Like what is that? What is that point when you transition or you're numbed? You're not even noticing what you're doing. It's like when you're driving without being present before you know it, you're like, wait, I did all this and I didn't even know I'm not conscious. I'm not present. You know, just be aware of that moment. When you realize, again, mindfulness, you're scrolling, oh, I realize I'm scrolling. It's probably the moment you've disconnected and you reconnected. Take that moment of reconnect and awareness to put it down because nothing good is going to happen probably at that point. You're just feeding yourself. It's sugar, you know, it's not good for your brain. So I think screen time is the key in our relationship with it and then being able to have moments without it and a lot of inspiration comes when you're doing other things and you're being tactical and you're letting your brain learn and experience life in different ways outside of that loop. Yeah, it's like life is meant to be lived. Sometimes you need to take a step away from the act of creating content and being on all the time to just simply live your life, to just have that experience. Arthur Brooks talks a lot about how we need to be bored. He's always talking about the importance of boredom and I think that ties directly into what we're talking about with just stepping away from our phones and giving ourselves the space to be bored and not even like be bored and oh, I'm being so unproductive, but it's like let's reframe what boredom and productivity actually mean because we are living in a society where we feel like we're constantly not doing enough and that comes back to your earlier point. So yeah, I wholeheartedly stand by Arthur Brooks's work on like we need to be bored in life and I think that going back to what you asked which that's I just remember about when I should capture things versus living in the life, you know, it reminds me of that picture. It was somewhere near Zeeve and there was it was a beautiful, you know, it could have been in Europe and France, I feel tower somewhere where it was all these people like seeing the fireworks and everything and all these phones, right? We're like living through our phones, right? Recognize those moments you're trading in the experience for the content and the capture and what I do typically is I quickly capture something and then I try to put it down and experience it for myself with my own eyes, right? And sometimes there are moments you're like, I wish I captured that. Okay. And just kind of recognize that and say I'm so just grateful that I got to enjoy it for myself. That was not meant to, again, you were not meant to capture that moment or else you would have. It would have happened or someone else would have. So that was meant to be between you, the universe and whatever and what a beautiful blessing. It makes me think about how sunsets are never as pretty on our iPhones as they are in real life. So do I need a billion photos on my phone of me on the West Side Highway taking a photo of the sunset? No. Three will suffice and I can actually just walk down the West Side Highway and like decompress for a second. I think that's a really great reflection on when should we capture versus when should we be present and presence is a beautiful segue into the last topic that I want to hit on Shira, which is around happiness. And obviously every day in Dorfins is all about finding those moments of joy in life. And really the premise of the show is like how do we create healthier and happier lives for ourselves and really understand what does it mean to be happy, right? And so my findings from the podcast, through lived experience, through my own reflections, a lot of happiness also boils down to presence and our ability to be present and to be connected with other people. So I have two final questions for you. And the first is when you think about happiness, what is your definition on that? And were there any pivotal moments in your life that kind of forced you to rethink what does it actually mean to be happy? Yeah, all the time. What does it mean to be happy? I do think it is enjoying the present moment and the magic of the moments. Whether that is quote, quote, quote, good or bad, kind of the life of the moment, whatever that life is is whatever is presenting in front of you without judgment and just experiencing it, right? Even in sadness, there could be in a way, happiness or an acknowledgement of life flowing through you and being in front of you in that process. I think that's, I don't have the plans or, but I think that gratitude and appreciation is so intertwined with happiness, I believe, because it is a bit of a mindset because again, things so many things will happen that will present itself in front of you that will suck. Life is, it can be shitty. There's a lot of bad things happening in the world and to so many people. And that can be really difficult, whether you're the one suffering or you're witnessing it and feeling there, it like it's out of your control to help or whatever you do, it's not enough. It's bad. Life can be very hard and it is hard, even making a difference. If you're someone, I say that wants to change the world, it's not going to help for you to stay in that suffering and unhappiness because you cannot create change from that. Those people you're trying to help need you and you to, you could be angered and passionate and all that, but they still need you to be healthy in order to make a change. In order to be mentally healthy and physically healthy, you need to allow yourself to experience joy. I do wholeheartedly believe that because that's the medicine. Anger creates hurt pain and disease. And so just even in a practical sense, I think that we need to, and I speak to myself, release our guilt around being happy and feeling joy, even in difficult times, that we are deserving of that and that change happens through happiness joy. And so well said, we need to give ourselves the permission to feel joy. A lot of people, I think, conflate happiness with toxic positivity and I will literally die on the hill that they are so different and we need to get that ingrained in everyone's brain because what I try to promote and I talk a lot about is like we need to actually face the realities of life and the hardship that exists and recognize that we can live through really hard things and yet we can still choose to show up with optimism, to show up with joy, to show up with resilience, to have a better attitude. And that's what this whole idea of like finding your endorphins is, it could be a cloudy, overcast, horrible day, the weather can be shitty, you can have a really horrible meeting with your boss, you can all, whatever, everything happens, that's just wrong. It's not good. It's not like giving you happiness, right? But what's in your control? Choosing to show up. up differently. And it comes back to like, oh my God, well, you know, today's not the day, but at least I made myself a really good cup of coffee and like that's bringing me incremental joy. Or like, I'm in at least just move my body for like 20 minutes. And at least I did that, right? That's why I love Dan Harris because his whole promise of like 10% happier is it's not being happy all the time. It's like, what can we do to just be incrementally better? And that's that's life. It's like, we don't need to do it all at once. We just need to do a little bit every day along the way. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think if I think about moments that I feel the warmth of the moment and sometimes it is from big moments, right? If I feel that like, oh, yummy joy, you know, that vibe. It is from big things, but a lot of times, there's so much happening in those big moments, even it's hard to slow down because you're having to show up and work and this and that. And it's hard to step back to just enjoy, to see kind of the blessing in front of you without the responsibility in that moment. But, you know, and I'm referencing things happening, whether it be, yeah, I'm hosting a moment on stage or I'm releasing my report. And I'm like, oh my god, and I am, I'm grateful to be able to put this out. I put so much effort into it. It's a lot of sweat and tears, right? There's joy in those moments, but there's also it's a, it's a different type of happiness, right? It's a purposeful action. And I felt joy sometimes in seeing the response and seeing how it resonates. That brings me joy in those moments of clarity in that. But for me, it is, you know, really, yeah, the cappuccino. I have so much joy in having a good cappuccino. It's like out of control. Yeah. Well, like a good caisson or like, yeah, when it's a cold day and you're like walking in the smell outdoors and, you know, rolling around and playing with my dog or, you know, I'm about to make pies later today. Like I find so much joy in that. And so, it's a different type of joy, though, right? And so I think it's about understanding what that is for you also. And being okay with all the different types of joy, right? I think we tend to put this bucket of like, this is one is not like that and all that. Like the, the joy I have with, you know, looking at my mom and recognizing there's a moment where she's not around, like, that's a different type of appreciation. Yeah. Mixed with some sadness. And that, and, and there's a different moment that happens when, yeah, I'm watching the sunset or the sunrise. So it all has its place and just I think recognizing that is important without overthinking it. Exactly. Without overthinking it is the key because I overthink everything. So you kind of just answered my last question, which was, what is something that brings you into our friends? Like, what are the things that light you up in life and make you happy? All of that, that does. Leaping it in the morning without an alarm. Oh, I'm, I love a good sleep and feeling like that, the pressure of the shower, the hot water and my shoulders. Like, those are those little things. But then I, I do feel happiness in connecting with you and being on the podcast, having conversations with people I don't know or exchanging ideas. Again, that's a different type of happiness. But I would say for me, I've, I've discovered some real, real appreciation for these moments that aren't necessarily big at all in some ways. And that's what keeps me grounded and going. And then also I would say on the other side, not undermining the things that you normalized, whether it be, oh, I'm on stage, I'm going to can for this, really sitting in those moments of, oh my God, there has been times that I was never invited and I'm here and I'm on a flight to this. Or I'm being invited to this. Like, I think that if you've, if you've felt loss or really deep down moments in your working career, and what feels purposeful for you, sometimes it takes that to make you appreciate when you have that busyness. So people ask me right now, you're so busy. Why are you doing? I was like, well, I know what it's like not to be busy. And I know what it's like to get calls. And I know what it's like to have people email me back. And so I take it as it comes. And I have such deep appreciation for all of it. I will be showing up. Thank you very much, because I asked for this. And so I will be showing up. So yeah, well, there you go. I couldn't agree more. I think this is like such an amazing reflection. And just one final point on can, this ties back to what you were mentioning earlier in your career path and like getting over this imposter syndrome and just having this like delusional self confidence. I wrote a whole set of stuff around what it feels like to show up in a space where you want to belong and act like you do belong. And then like, you know, you do because you're acting like the person you want to become. That was canned for me. I was not invited. I did not get invited by my my corporate job. I didn't did not get invited because I'm a famous TikTok influencer. No, I went because I wanted to learn and meet people. And amazing opportunities came out of that. So I think that when you take your life into your own hands, it requires a sense of like delusional self belief, you know, to a degree. So I'll land there to your point. We have to celebrate those wins. Like we have to celebrate the small and the big wins in life. And I really love how you kind of gave a perspective on that there's different types of happiness and different types of joy. And a lot of times some of the like the big joy we can experience also is tied to some of the most like more of the negative emotions like sadness or nostalgia or whatever. I love that Shira. And truthfully, like I in the spirit of Thanksgiving, because we're recording this the day before Thanksgiving. So in the spirit of that and gratitude, I am so thankful for having you on the show, for taking the time, for doing this. I'm really excited to to share this with my listeners and can't wait to continue our conversations. Oh, I appreciate you. Thank you for the great conversation. I'm grateful to be in this moment with you. That's exactly where we're supposed to be.