EP #172: How to Change the Stories We Tell Ourselves with Elles Ottens, International Model & Clinical Hypnotherapist

(upbeat music) Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Door Fence. I'm your host, Stella Stuffinopolis, and this week I had the pleasure of getting to sit down with Ella's Odens on the show. Ella is an international fashion model. She's been in the industry for over 11 years and has worked with so many amazing brands like Dolce & Gabbana, Vogue, Marie Claire, Elle Magazine and more, and not only is she a model, but she has a whole other career and passion outside of the modeling and fashion industry. Ella's has given a TED talk about how modeling has negatively influenced her self-image, and she is also a rapid transformational therapist and clinical hypnotherapist. So in this episode, Ella's and I got to talk about her career path as a model, some of the challenges she's faced, how modeling has influenced the way that she sees herself and the way that she sees her career. But we also talk a lot about the pivot into hypnotherapy. What even hypnotherapy is, how can we a really powerful tool to unlock your subconscious and why your subconscious is where a lot of your belief systems are stored? And we also talk a lot about the power of changing the narrative and life, changing the script, and taking control over the way that you want to live your life, which I think is a very empowering idea to really grasp onto. So often we feel powerless over things happening to us, but how might we regain the strength and control to recognize that we are really the ones at the end of the day that can dictate the narratives that we hold over our lives? So there's a lot of wisdom in this conversation. I think you're all gonna find something very valuable with what Ella's has to share. But before we get into it, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast on which ever listening platform you prefer. Hi, Ella's. Thank you so much for coming on to everyday endorphins. It is so wonderful having you here. - Hey Stella, thank you so much for having me today. The beauty of podcasting is that we can sit across the world and get to come together and get to have a conversation. And although I wish you were back in New York and we could do this at the coffee shop that we initially met at, it is really just such a pleasure to have you here. And when we were connected through a mutual friend a few months ago, and I got to learn more about you and all the amazing work that you do to showcase all sides of modeling, I just felt like you'd be such a great person to come onto the podcast, to talk about path and where your interest in the wellness space really came from. So I'd love to start there. Can you share with my audience a little bit more about yourself and how you got into modeling? - Yes, I started working as a model when I was 18 and I actually got scouted. I always wanted to model, but I never really thought that I could do it full time. And then when I got scouted at 18, I really fully went for it. So I broke up with my boyfriend at the time. I canceled my summer holiday with my friends. I stopped my studies. I fully went for it. And then I just started to model full time. So I always felt like a bit curious about it. So then when I got scouted, I immediately felt that I really wanted to explore this industry. Yeah, like over time, I also really felt like I was missing something and that I really wanted to also touch more into the, how can I say this? Into something that really fulfills my soul more, let's say. - And you were so young, you were 18 when you got scouted. So did you? - Yeah. - Did you ever end up going to university? Like you must have just graduated from high school at that point and went straight into modeling? - So I was studying at the time. Actually, I was studying applied psychology and I was studying for one year and then I got scouted and I wanted to take Mongepier but Mongepier became a lot more, as you can see. And yeah, so I was still studying at the time. - Wow, so I can understand wanting to find something maybe like a bit higher purpose because you just dove into this industry so young. And when you're 18 years old, I mean, you're still a teenager and modeling is so focused on how you look and how you're visually perceived. So tell me a little bit more about that journey for you. How did modeling impact your self-confidence, your self-esteem? I also feel like the industry's probably changed a bit since when you first got into it. So what's your perspective on that as well? - Definitely really hard for me in the beginning, like especially the first few years. Like it was so tough for me for myself with steam because before I started modeling, I was feeling quite stable and quite grounded but when I started and when I was like really giving it my all, like taking care of my skin, taking care of my body, going to all the castings that I was invited to, I'm really doing my best for it, but still not seeing the results, right? That really was very tough because it took me like, I think like almost like two years to really make a living from it. So that's a really long time, right? So I was going home in between, to have like side jobs to be able to continue the journey, but it was really tough for me because I felt like the uncertainty for me was really difficult because I saw my friends like either like working or studying and I didn't really feel like I had a clear path but I still really wanted to see what was in it for me and I felt like I could get more out of it but I didn't really know like when would that happen, would it actually happen? Did I really have it inside of me, right? So that uncertainty really was very difficult for me. - And was it more so the uncertainty of not knowing when you're next like casting or job was or was it the uncertainty of how you were perceived by people? Like it doesn't sound like modeling really is as glamorous as it seems online because someone can go to your Instagram page for example and look at all these beautiful photos of you and all these amazing shoots you were in and runways but no one's really seeing actually what's gone on behind the scenes. - It was mostly like really casting so you're actually going to castings every day and a casting is kind of like an interview. So it's literally just like showing your book, your portfolio to the client to see if you're a match for them or like walking in their clothes for them to see if it's like if you're the right match. So it's a lot of waiting, a lot of castings and in the beginning especially you're doing a lot of test shoots as well. So these test shoots are just like three shoots that you shoot to build up your portfolio and then the clients have an image of you so they can see like what kind of shoots you can do and like how you can look like in different kind of makeups different kind of settings. So it's a lot of like let's say we're going to beginning that doesn't really give you money yet, right? Like the test shoots and the castings. So it's a lot of that and then if you're lucky when you're in the right market that is right fit for you as a model then you can work a lot. But in the beginning you also really explore like what is your market? So you striped to different countries to really see like what fits for you and where can you work well? But you never really know before you go to a place. Yeah. So it sounds like the beginning of the career is really where there's the most uncertainty because you're trying to figure out what is the right fit for me. Also how do you deal with rejection? Like you're doing a casting and the casting director is like, nope, we don't want her. Do they give an explanation? What is that process like for you? And you're so young too. Like I could imagine there's so many knows before there's a yes. How does it how did you handle that? I think the most important thing is to really know that it's not really a rejection of you but it's more like a rejection of not being the right match for for the brand, right? But for me like especially like the rejection part itself wasn't as hard as the uncertainty so for me like really the lack of clarity like, where am I going with my life? Is it working out or not? That was like a lot tougher for me than feeling like I'm rejected by the brand, let's say. But I think that's also because I didn't really tie my value so much to my appearance. Which is so important too because I think if you are tying your value and your self-worth to the way you look, a brand saying nope, we don't want you is going to like tear you down and it's going to make you think oh, like what had I'm not pretty enough it there. I mean, I think modeling is an industry that heightens the comparison trap because it's so easy to compare yourself against how you look to your peers, right? Yeah, definitely. And when you think about navigating that time of uncertainty or self-doubt, what were certain strategies that you had adopted to get through those periods of just not knowing like when the next paycheck was going to come, when the next shoot was going to happen, where you had to be flown out to at a moment's notice, how did you try to stay grounded when so much around you was just incredibly uncertain? I mean, like after a while, it became a lot easier because then I really understood like everything has its own seasons and sometimes you're very high. Let's say in a good season and you get a lot of jobs and lives going very well, but sometimes the seasons are not that easy and you don't get as many jobs or even let's say I'm outside of the modeling industry, just some seasons in life are better than other seasons, right? So after a while, I really learned that even if some period is really tough, like a better period will come when you'll wait long enough, when you just keep going. So I think as I grew older and got more experience, that really helped me as well to not like identify as much with the season that I'm in. But that really took also a lot of experience and really like understanding of that like learning to not identify with those high-end nose, right? Because it's very easy to feel very good about yourself when things are going really well and to feel very low about yourself when you're not seeing the results that you want to see. But yeah, there's a time of like planning the cities and also like reaping the benefits, I believe. And sometimes you don't immediately reap the benefits and it's really important to learn how to trust, but to also maybe also not only focus on that one part of your life. Because I think it's so easy to like get so frustrated when something in your life is not happening the way you want it to be like maybe in your career or relationships or anything else in life, right? And then we put so much pressure on it to like flourish, then it also just feels not happier, right? Whereas if you can accept that maybe that period is more difficult, it's a bit more rough, but that you'll move through it and you feel the trust within yourself that you can move through it, then you also know that you don't need to be pulled down by it as much. Yeah. It's just a part of life, let's say, like the the ups and the downs. Yes. That's really beautifully articulated and what comes up for me is that it's not necessarily about when you're in a good period, just waiting for the other shoe to drop, like, oh, this is inevitably going to get worse. It's about appreciating the moment that you're in and to your point not identifying with it. Because when you identify with it, the minute things go quote unquote wrong, yeah, you're like, it's like, it's like an identity crisis or you don't feel equipped to handle it. But it's, I think to your point, it's recognizing if you're in a good place, wow, I'm grateful for this. This is amazing. And I know that tomorrow something could happen. That could shake this up, but I'm going to be okay. Because to your point, it's like life is seasonal. That's actually been a mindset that's really helped me move through periods of even uncertainty in my job and my relationships and my life. I think we place a lot of pressure on ourselves to like know the answer to life's questions and challenges. And I like, that's this whole concept of like clarity. Like, oh, I just want clarity over a situation. What is clarity even? Like, literally, like what even is clarity? Because you get to that answer, but it's only answering the question in that particular moment in time. Anything can change. It changes all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think can you allow yourself to know the answer, but to follow what like, give you energy and like what feels right in a moment. And also, I think it's like very Western to feel as if there's like a right and wrong, you know, but it's just like different. So one pet is different than another pet. And there's no, I don't know, right or wrong way, I think too. Yeah. Yeah. Because when you prescribe, right versus wrong or a sense of morality, if you're doing something that is wrong, you can guilt yourself. Like you can put shame, put pressure, but I love that reframe. It's just different. And I think, you know, a lot of my listeners are in their mid to late 20s, early 30s. That's such like a critical period of time where every year is different. Like I was, I was joking with a friend on Friday out at drinks about how every year I do a word of the year to really set an intention. And it's like a, for me, it's helpful to think about my choices through a filter of like, how is it contributing to this word? And I only started doing it as of this year 2025. But I already know what I want next year's word to be when we were talking about how I just started this practice, because he had asked me, Oh, what were like the previous years? And I was like, well, I actually just started it in 2025, but I can tell you, I have a theme for what happened in 2024 or 2023 and etc. Yeah. And the reason I ring this up is because like the 20s, the 30s, it's just so formative every year is a whole new learning, a whole new lesson. I do believe that we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to make like the right choice. Do I change my job? Do I move to a different city? Do I break up with my partner? Do I this? Do I? That? And the more that we outsource opinions from other people, we just get further away from like our inner knowing. Yeah, for sure. I know that you mentioned that you were studying applied psychology in school. And then this path, not a right or wrong, just a completely different path, opened up for you in the world of modeling. Were there certain moments in your life and in your modeling career that started to kind of ring a bell in your brain? Like, I really want to dive back into the psychology world. What was going on and coming up for you as you were pursuing modeling that started to spark this interest in, I actually want to like become a practitioner in this field of psychology. Yeah. I feel like I was always still interested in it because I was always reading self-help books at every shoot, you know? So it's like, it was still like part of my, almost like daily ritual. But I feel like at some point I felt like it wasn't really cool enough. So the feeling of like moving from the modeling industry to like the self-help industry is something that my ego didn't really like. So then I thought like, maybe I can start acting afterwards if modeling doesn't work anymore, you know? Like it just didn't appeal to me at some point in time. But then I know that there was always a side of me. So it's something that even though let's say my ego didn't want to do it, like I couldn't suppress it because it was always my natural interest, right? And then at some point also I really understood that by working on my own beliefs and working on my own, I mean the way how I saw myself really helped me in my career as well. And then I understood, okay, this is actually something that I can also help other people with. So then I naturally just like moved slowly towards that industry. And now it's beautiful because now I can still combine it and I always thought that I have to choose to go for either one or another. But I can just, I don't know, you can always create your own schedule, right? And you can be as creative as you want to be. So now I feel like there's this beautiful mixture of like modeling workshops one-on-one sessions. So yeah, it's really fun. That's so amazing. And to have that sort of autonomy now in your career where you can create your own schedule, your own routine and blend all areas of passion, I think is the dream. I love what you said around how your ego didn't want you to do it, but you knew deep inside like you wanted to do it. Yeah. Where what was what was going on there with when you think about like your ego, like what was holding you back from wanting to pursue this path? I think honestly like my ego loved to title model maybe or like maybe like it made me feel more special, right? Like be that industry and I think I was was afraid of like losing that specialness about me like I didn't really fully understand like that that doesn't make you special, right? But it's like so let's say appreciated in the in the world or like I feel like modeling is kind of like okay appreciated. It's not it's not the right word, but a job that I think that many women think that they want to have. Let's say when you're a model it automatically gives you this like label of when you identify as a model you feel prettier maybe. I think that's how I felt and like being in that same kind of industry felt more interesting to my ego because I wasn't like sharing up within myself of who am I right and what is my value. So I think it felt safer to like stay in that industry to still feel like validated from the outside. I think that's the whole process yeah. But I feel like when there's something inside of you, did you really feel like the urge that you want to follow you can suppress it, but at some point it just comes back to your life. Yeah. Like yeah. It's like when you suppress any sort of emotion. You can bury it for some time, but it's going to come back to the surface eventually. Yeah. It's interesting too because I think like when we place so much of our identity on what we do for a living, it runs the risk of well what happens when you no longer do that thing for a living what's left. Yeah. And to be able to hold space for multiple identities, I think is the healthiest way to engage with the world around us and yeah, recognize that you are a model and you're a hypnotherapist like you it's not one or the other and you can feel the byproduct of what it means to be a model and also this practice of hypnotherapy. It's not one or the other. Yeah. Exactly. I often feel like these days like I describe it more as something that I do rather than as something that I am because I feel like all of these things like they can change so quickly right and I just want to follow like what my god says that I want to do and to not be like tied to a certain job. for too long because I am, I have been a therapist or I am a model, right? Like because we can do so many things in life. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think I need to, I need to tell my friends this because everyone in corporate America, it's like, oh, I'm a consultant. I'm a banker. I'm an investment banker. I'm a, I, like I work in private equity. It's the same thing over and over again. But are we really that? Like, no, yes, you spend most of your time doing these things. But when you strip all that away, who are you at your core? What are the, what are the things you love to do? Yeah. I wanted it switch gears and, and have you share a little bit more about what even is hypnotherapy? Maybe not everyone on, on the line listening knows what this is. And how does it differ from just traditional therapy? So hypnotherapy is a tool that really helps you to step into the subconscious mind because you might have heard that almost everything that we think doing feel is coming from the subconscious mind, right? So oftentimes we have certain patterns that we try to break, but we try to break it by analyzing the pattern, like thinking about it, talking with friends, right? Like, but that doesn't really go to the root cause and the reason for why you have that pattern in your life. So in our childhood, mostly like we form a lot of beliefs about ourselves, I mean, through a whole life, right? But especially in our childhood, for so suggestible, and then it's so easily to form a lot of beliefs about life, about relationships, about our self. And we take those beliefs with us for so many decades often, because we're not even aware of it. So with hypnotherapy, you can really find out what are actually those beliefs underneath the surface level that are driving your behavior. So you can actually change it because when you fully understand yourself in a deeper level, and then also go back to those moments that have caused you to believe certain things, it's also a lot easier to change the belief because maybe it's a long explanation, but like nothing really, nothing in life really has a meaning, right? But the meaning that we attach to the event makes us behave a certain way. So when we can go back in hypnosis to like certain times in our lives, where we have been through painful events, and then we can change the meaning there, then we can also behave in a different way right now in the in the future, that's it. Yeah. I love that. I think that everything in life is kind of just a neutral event. You know, like if you look at something objectively, it's, it's just a fact. Like it's just, it is what it is. But the way we feel about certain things is the byproduct of whether or not we deem that event to be good or bad. Yeah. And I think when I reflect on certain times in my life, I've caused myself a lot of suffering and inner pain with over analyzing or like prescribing negative meaning to an event that's just neutral. And it takes a lot of time and work to be able to see things for as they are and to not feel a sense of like, I don't know. I think a lot of it has to do with when you take things personally, it's easier to prescribe that like negative meaning to something. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. When you think about the process of hypnotherapy, getting to those living beliefs that are formed subconsciously when you're like in your childhood, how do you as a practitioner take people along through that? Are there specific questions that you ask? Like how are you able to get people to access the subconscious? Because I think a lot of times we subconsciously push away any invitation into the subconscious. Yeah. I think first of all, it's always really important that the person feels safe because it's safe for you to feel the easier. It also is to surrender to the process and to allow those things to come up. So when you feel really safe, it's easier. It's also really reprocessed the trauma, right? And to see it in a different way. I'm just using the word trauma now, but it can be something smaller as well, right? Like a painful memory. And what I do is that I guide them through. You can kind of call it like a guided visualization. It's really relaxed, the body and the same deeper into your body and to not be so much in your head because what we do eventually is that I'm still talking to the person, but in a different way, because as we're talking now, we're talking the state to the conscious mind, right? In a litical mind. That's the time when you're more of the beta brain wave state. But in hypnosis, you sing deeper into a different brain wave state, which is called the tetsa brain wave state. And then that state of being, when I then ask you certain questions, you're not analyzing it. You're not like overthinking it, but you're actually answering it from a deeper knowing, like the subconscious, the subconscious level, actually. So that's actually being done through the guided visualization. You can kind of see it like that. So when you're sleeping, you're in a delta brain wave state, but you can kind of like compare to when you almost fall asleep, when you're in a dreamy kind of state, but also for example, when you're really, when you're watching a movie, you're really feeling like you're so immersed in the movie, right? Like you don't really hear anything around you. That's the same kind of state. So it's really focused attention. So you're like, you're very relaxed. You're still conscious, but you're not in your thinking brain. You're not in the monkey mind. Exactly. Wow. And I would imagine that yoga need draw gets people into a similar. Yeah. state. But I think yoga need tries more about like really relaxing the body, right? So that could be used in the beginning of hypnosis session to really relax the body and to guide somebody like deeper into that state of relaxation. And then after if you go to the regression part, then you can also use like certain statements to like really help somebody like go deeper into that state and to go back to childhood memories, childhood times that are not even childhood, which is like times in general that have to do with the cause of a certain pattern that you have in your life. What would you say the like ideal outcome is of a hypnosis session? So you're guiding your clients through this hypnosis. You're asking these questions. And then how do you guide them out? Do you do you talk about what was set? Do they remember what was said? Like how does that post session discourse take place? Yeah. So they remember everything because they're always consciously there. But basically in that process, like first we go back to those painful memories, right? And the goal of that is to really change the, um, change the meaning of the event, basically because in those events, they have started to believe something about themselves. And in the nose, you can really see your younger self. You can tell yourself like everything that you wanted to hear in that time. Maybe something that your mother didn't tell you, your father didn't tell you that we didn't make you feel not seeing that really not heard, right? And then it's said of being it can be very emotional as well because it can feel so real, right? So it can be really an emotional release. Sometimes people cry a lot during a session, but sometimes just giving yourself the, the acknowledgement of like what happened and just giving yourself space can be enough to just like really give space to that memory. And therefore also change the, the meaning of it. So the bigger goals really change the meaning of the event that happened so that you can feel safe again in life right now. And then after that, I usually let them imagine to see their lives right now. So to take the younger version of them through their life right now to see how everything has changed. They're safe now. Everything is okay right now. It's really feel that really from a deeper level and then slowly you can, you can have like certain processes to bring somebody back to to full awareness. For example, just becoming aware of like the temperature in the room, becoming aware of how the clothing is touching this kid in like really slowly bringing them back into the moment. Yeah. So it's that kind of process. No, I, what keeps coming up for me is like this theme around changing the meaning of how we prescribe certain memories to be or certain events in our lives. What are some consistent challenges you've seen people experience you just mentioned this, this feeling of not being seen is like pretty, pretty common or something that comes up frequently. Is there anything else that comes to mind when you think about some of those like deepest traumas or painful moments that people experience in life that caused the most inner damage. If you think about it more like, you know, not specifics, but just like thematic. Like for me, what I would imagine is this, this feeling of not being seen. But also even like feeling neglected in life, like there's, I feel like there are like categories of certain wounds that people hold on to. Yeah, definitely. It's often coming back to not feeling like people belong, right, or not feeling good enough, feeling different. And then like when you feel different, you try to fit in, right? So there's like a big fear of rejection that is often a really big topic that is underneath a lot of problems. and it can show up in the different kind of ways, right? Oftentimes the issues that people come with can look very different, but when you go to a deeper level, we all just want to be loved, we just want to be seen, we just want to be valued, right? And really fit in because like years ago, like if we would not fit in, it would literally be dangerous, right? Like we could like die if we would not be fitting in the group if it would not be long. So that's still like kind of like wired into the brain. So that's why rejection is so scary. You make such a good point because when we look at it from like the evolutionary perspective, survive with the finished, we are meant to be tribal and to fit in with a group because if you didn't fit into the group, you're risk of getting killed in those days. Yeah, exactly. But we're not in the modern times and we have to remind ourselves that even if we don't fit in, we're not at risk of dying. We can test your thighs so much. Yeah, which is I think to your point, why why people are so afraid to be open and honest and vulnerable with other people. We see this most commonly in dating. I made a video on TikTok. No wonder it kind of got a lot of traction because I was talking about how men don't approach well, maybe this is a cultural thing, but in America, like men are not approaching women and there's this tension because men perceive that women don't want to be approached for fear of being seen as creepy and all of that. But then it's like the women have had so many negative experiences with men who come on in a very creepy demeanor that they're resistant to a man approaching. So they're perpetuating the problem, but then men are also creating that issue too. And it all I really believe comes back to that route of the fear of rejection. Yeah, definitely. I can also imagine right? It's definitely scary for men to like, it's more of the men than women right? Good themselves out there to pursue somebody, I think. So of course, like it's a big risk of being rejected. And I mean, of course, both men and women experience it, but like the fear of rejection. But I wonder if perhaps it's harder for men to be open about that because the way we see masculinity is to not engage with our emotions. It's to be very logical, to be very rational. Yeah. So how do you have like, I know your your Dutch, you're based in the Netherlands. Do you see this at play, even in Dutch culture? Or is this like a universal thing that you've seen an experience or do you feel like maybe it's more prominent in certain cultures than others? It's probably more prominent in certain cultures than others, I think, but definitely it's a universal thing I would say because sometimes also when I have a client like mostly like women like they talk with their friends, right? Also about certain topics like they talk, they open up with friends more easily, but men like I've had more times with men, Meredith, say like you're the first person I tell about this, right? And they must make it so heavy and so difficult because if you cannot talk with anybody about it, because you're afraid that somebody will judge you or will shame you that makes it even more heavy, right? I think it's a universal thing. Yeah. Yeah. Something I've been really thinking a lot about too is the loneliness epidemic that is so present right now. And why we're all struggling to really connect and through the work that you're doing and the work that you've done for yourself, how do you see practices like hypnotherapy and the byproducts of hypnotherapy actually be a conduit to people connecting more deeply with others? How do you see that relationship? I think in order to connect with other people, you need to be really comfortable with yourself, right? And if you feel very ashamed of certain things, if you feel like you're not enough, then of course it's very scary to share those things with other people. But how can you really connect with people if you cannot share parts about yourself, right? I'm not saying that you should share with everybody because of course I get difficult to talk about vulnerable topics with everyone, right? But I really believe that through the inner work that people do, they feel more comfortable with themselves, more safe within themselves. And therefore it's also more safe to talk with somebody else. I mean, with their friends, and they're really connected people because if you don't feel so rejected by yourself, if you can like accept all of those parts of yourself more, right? By doing the inner work, also the parts that maybe are not that beautiful. When you can see them more, when you can accept them more, then it's also easier to accept another person, but to also connect with another person and to be okay with it if that person doesn't fully see you because you see yourself. Yeah. I think it makes it a lot easier to connect. Yeah, that's that's a really good point. And it's like also if you accept yourself and you really like know who you are, you can own it. And yeah, the idea of someone rejecting you for who you are doesn't really phase you because you you like who you are. So it doesn't exactly. We don't place as much value and weight on other people's words and opinions when we have this strong opinion of ourselves. You keep coming back to this concept of safety, like inner safety. And it's very hard to feel a sense of inner safety in a world that we live in that is just so unsafe. I saw a TikTok actually that said this woman was talking about how we don't experience reality. We experience events around us through like the state of our nervous system. Like we're not experiencing reality. We're experiencing our nervous system at all times. Yeah. How does that land for you? Can you elaborate on that or what comes up for you when you think about that? I partially agree. I partially disagree. To be honest, because yes, the beliefs that you have like the internal landscape really influence is how you see everything, right? So really influence your experience of everything. So maybe two people can have the exact same day, but one person loves it and the other person hates that day, right? Because of the beliefs that they have about that day. But at the same time, there's also I mean reality. There's also certain events that are really happening, right? You cannot deny that. I guess that's where duality is coming into place. Some things are are naturally really tough, right? Like that's real at the same time and at the same time our beliefs are influencing that as well. I'll have to find the video and send it to you because I think to with what you're saying, that is actually an element of what the video was talking about because when you take it a step further, our beliefs, I do think can influence our nervous system. Like if you have all these negative beliefs, you're not regulated, right? You're constantly in that fight or flight. And so to your point, like two people can have the exact same day, but feel differently about the day. So perhaps it's like one person has a more regulated nervous system or is able to handle stress with more grace, whereas the other person is a bit more on edge because of these beliefs that they hold. Yeah. And then just see Steve and said, I'm folding different. Right. And I think when we are able to really understand that, it actually is quite empowering with navigating uncertainty back to your earlier point. When we recognize that there's so much outside of us that we can't control, it's actually quite empowering to know that we can always come back to ourselves. Yeah, for sure. Because no matter what happens in life, you can be the one who decides what you want to believe or how you want to interpret it. And that's not easy at all. Of course, because it's easier said than done to just see things differently, but you can choose to do like deeper inner work to really sit with those feelings and to first accept them and to fully embrace it and then work through it. And therefore start to see the situation differently. And therefore to be able to be very resilient as well, no matter what live brain. Exactly. And I think resilience is that secret key to living a happy and fulfilling life, which is a fantastic segue into the few final questions I'd love to ask you. So as we know, everyday endorphins is about finding things that life that bring us joy and really exploring through these conversations, how do people find happiness in life? What does it even mean to be happy? So the first question I would love to ask you, Alice, is what is your definition of happiness? And how has that perhaps changed through the course of your life when you were 18, you're doing modeling and then becoming a hypnotherapist? How do you see happiness to be defined? I think happiness is really being brave to follow your own path. Like when you really do what gives you energy, right? And so really know yourself. To know what gives you energy, to know what trains you energy and to really be true to yourself. I feel like happiness might look different for everyone, but when you really follow what resonates for you and not try to fit in, not try to follow what is like popular or try to follow what is like valued in our society, then it's easy to be happy if you really follow your own path. And that's easier said than none of course, but I think also we all have this inner combat like we always know and something is draining and when something is actually making you feel more alive. So I feel like that way we can also simplify that search, right? So just listen to our body. So that is my definition of happiness right now. And how was before? I think it was definitely way more tied to feeling that I'm performing you know way. Like I definitely felt quite happy if I would like achieve a lot, you know, like I felt quite fulfilled, but it was not like real happiness, but more like yeah feeling validated in a way. That's right. Yeah. So relate to you and in your tattoo, you would said that like your self worth was contingent upon your achievements. And for so much of my life, it was the same exact story. And I wouldn't want to change anything about the way I was raised or the life that my parents were able to provide me. I'm so grateful for that. But when you're in a culture of succeed, succeed, succeed, you start to attribute your sense of worth with accomplishment. And we forget that you know we have all these goals and us sitting here today means we've hit all these goals that we've set in the past. And yeah, like we can be happy right now, but we've also probably navigated very difficult and unhappy moments in our lives. So achieving all these goals doesn't guarantee that you're going to be happy because we're on the other side of that now. And who's to say that we're actually even you know, happy in this present moment. So to think about all these other goals that we have for ourselves, our happiness doesn't lie on that on the other side of that second batch. No, through the process. I mean, even to your point on like learning to really honor what you need. This is so this is so relevant. Last night, I was at a sauna and it was like a very nice way to end the evening. And I you know, I ended this pretty late. It was like 11 11 30 by the time I left the sauna and I had some friends that were out on a Saturday night. And I texted them to see if what they were up to and I was considering going to meet them. And I I'm so glad that I didn't because clearly my voice is a mess and I'm still recovering from a bad cold. But I had texted my friend last night saying, you know, she asked her, are you going to go to meet them? And I was like, well, you know, I'm already in a taxi on my way home. I know if I show up, I'm just going to be annoyed and I don't want to like talk over myself in a crowded bar like I'm going to completely lose my voice. And I said, I have to honor my needs to go home and break the cycle of being out just to be seen. And that's what's giving me happiness, you know, and it's really, really hard. But to me, you know, that's what that's what comes up for me with what you said. It's also about knowing yourself, I think, right? And like accepting like what you need, being okay with that because that's not that easy, I think. No, it's not. It's not. And again, it's like something I'm working on too as well. If this is the choice that I need for myself and if this is what I need, I should put that first. I shouldn't have been over backwards to do other things just to be perceived in a certain way. Yeah, which is easier, something done. But yeah, it's sounds almost like funny and city, right? But it's like it's way more complicated and real life because I think it also comes back to the sense of like wanting to belong in a way, yeah, and a deep forever. Yeah. Which is also something I've definitely worked on throughout the course of my adult life is learning what does it even mean to belong? How do you find a sense of belonging in yourself? Well, this is also another great segue into really like the question that I want to land this interview with. And it's something that I ask every guest that comes on the show. A little separate from how do you define happiness, but of course related because we're on a show, a podcast talking about endorphins. So my final question to you, Alice, is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? Okay. I would say walking really makes me have be listening to music. Like I feel so alive and I'm just listening to music, walking on the street, you know, just like really feeling and experiencing life and saying that way because you're not so much in your head at those times, at least for me. And just a lot of like small things like drinking coffee, cuddling with my partner, reading, yes, reading books, having meaningful conversations, like having deep conversations, doing creative work, but also I really feel super fulfilled for like the one-on-one sessions that I guide in the workshops. Like I really put me into this kind of like higher state, you know. So it makes me feel very connected and yeah, I have a lot of good things to be grateful for. So yes, a nice question. Yes. Oh, well, I'm, you're the first person that has thanked me for asking this question. It's nice to reflect on it, you know, and actually be aware of like, oh yeah, actually there's so much to be grateful for. Like I try to practice it every day, but it's so easy to like forget it or it's not really feel it. Absolutely. You know what I mean? You know, I love your answer because there are so many things in life that bring us joy. And I don't think I actually realized this until literally just now, but the premise of what does it mean to find things in life that bring you endorphins or like why am I even asking this question in the first place? It's to remind people that despite hard times in life, there's still so much to be grateful for. Like that's what the endorphins are. It's these moments of glimmers, moments of joy that ground you in a sense of gratitude. And when you can anchor on moments of gratitude, you're happy. Like that's all you made really. So yeah, I think I don't think I even realized it until your response that like the reason I've been asking people who brings you endorphins is to help people remind themselves what are they grateful for. Yeah. So thank you for helping me understand why I've even been asking this question for the past five years. But I love it. And I resonate with like so many of those points. I would love to be on the other side of your hypnotherapy sessions one day because I feel like that would be so eye opening for me. But for my listeners who are also thinking the same thing and are like how do I get in touch with Alice and getting in contact with her? How can people connect with you follow along what you're doing and reach out to you? If I have an Instagram account called HypnoCraft, so you can send me a message there, but also I have a link in the bio there where you can like blend a free call. So either you can do that or you can send me a message. I'm always happy to connect. And who knows maybe one day in New York, we can organize a workshop together. That would be so really fun. Okay, we're going to put on the 2026. I love it. Well, I will link all of those resources and points of contact for people can touch with you in the episode show notes. So everyone you can go to find Alice there. And I just wanted to thank you again. This was really really wonderful and such a beautiful way to start my Sunday morning. So thank you. Thank you for having me for a beautiful heartfelt conversation. It was really nice.