Ep 160. Engaging Diverse Learners w/ Dr. Joanna Alcruz & Dr. Maggie Blair

Welcome to episode 160. Today, we look at redefining classroom management for multi-lingual learners. Welcome to the Teaching Multi-lingual Learners Podcast. This podcast celebrates teachers who answer the calling to serve multi-lingual students and their families. Think back to your first years of teaching. What classroom management systems did you use? I shamefully use raffle tickets and table points and team points. As you guessed, these were not effective at all. They basically were temporary bribes for students. I had to bribe them because my lessons were unengaging and unscathoded. Instead of thinking about managing the behaviors, maybe I should think about structuring my lessons more appropriately. In this podcast, it's all about classroom management and rethinking it. We'll do that with Dr. Joanna Alcruz and Dr. Maggie Blair. They'll talk about ideas shared in the book called Engaging Diverse Learners. Enhanced a purchase to classroom management. Now on to today's podcast. I'm so excited today to have Dr. Maggie Blair from Lawy University and the podcast. Dr. Blair and Dr. Alcruz, welcome. Thank you so much for the invitation and for the opportunity to talk about our book that was just recently published on engaging diverse learners. This is an enhanced approach to classroom management. I saw that book on Twitter and I was shared by Dr. Andrew Hugginsfeld, the person who wrote your forward and a person who's quite loved in the field. And I said, "If Andrew is sharing it, then we must have you on the podcast." Thank you so much. She was our mentor throughout the project. This is our first publication. So this was really an exciting journey. We wrote the book mostly through COVID. It started prior to COVID, but we really collaborated a lot with many authors in order to get this publication out. So we'll be happy to discuss it with you. Well, this is your first of many, many books. I'm sure. Let's start with the first question. Can you please describe how you spend your days and where you spend your days? I guess I'll start, Maggie. I am a mom of three kids. I have been a small baby and I know you're in Cambodia right now so that we haven't made a trip yet, but hopefully we will. But I'm an associate professor at Malloy Community College and I work in the EDD program which is the educational leadership for diverse learning communities program. So I'm lucky to really teach what I got trained for. So the courses I teach are really aligned with all my journey through education since I came here to United States. I teach statistics and quantitative research. My doctorate was in cognition and learning in the educational psychology program. And I also have background in assessment and measurement. So I am lucky to weave all of those different aspects into my teaching. So I'm grateful for that. I'm also a co-director of cognition and learning lab here at Malloy. So we collaborate with other faculty members and students to do research projects related to how students learn how they're motivated. So it ties very much to also the content of the book. And we also recently developed a new SEL certificate here at Malloy. So we're co-directoring that as well. So that's what I do on a daily basis. Well, I am retired for the third or fourth time in my career. I actually began teaching in 1970. I know I don't look that old, but I tell long I've been doing this. I started teaching in the South Bronx. I'm going to take you through that because it evolved into special education. I learned that I really needed to know more about children. So I was probably one of the first teachers in New York City in classes for special education. As special education grew, I was tapped to become a staff developer for it in New York City. And then eventually as an administrator. The problem as I saw it back then was, while it was a staff special education was established to support young students or any student. What ended up happening was we marginalized an entire population of people. There was an overarching feeling that these kids can't do. And the barriers shouldn't be set for them. And so they were separated into separate classes. And I really struggled with that. I eventually moved to Long Island to districts here on Long Island where I served as a director of special education. And one of the primary reasons why I came out here was because I had more control over the kinds of programs we were offering in districts. And so my mission was always to become back, move back to the more inclusive settings for our students. Inclusive settings with high expectations and support for faculty and staff to meet the needs of the kids. At one point, someone along the way said, hey, we have a new program at that point, Malloy College. And it was the graduate level program for special education. And I was asked to join the faculty. So for a number of years, I worked in the districts and I worked as an adjunct here because I couldn't come full time. I made my first retirement from the districts and then came to Malloy. I worked at Malloy for 17 years. I was the master's level teaching the students and the graduate students in special education. And I retired in the spring of 2020. However, I didn't end my retirement was short lived. I had written with a couple of colleagues of mine a program for a college based program for young developmentally disabled adults to experience college. And have a curriculum written specifically for them that would teach them critical thinking skills, decision making and plan full preparation for an adult life. So I spend two days a week, two stays and third stays here on campus with my most program, which the acronym is the is for most opportunities for successful transition. It's a program like no other. And we have we have taken the campus by storm. They belong on campus. They actively participate in events on campus. At this point, our second year students are also doing internships on campus. So this long history of job retirement job retirement job goes on. Well, when you have so much energy and I can tell that you both have such passions for your work that you don't need to retire because it's not a really a job. It's a wonderful way to spend one's life. It actually is and I thank you for that. Most people say why didn't you retire? Why would I? The question would be why would I? And when we were thinking about this book that I was looking for a collaborator and just knowing my expertise and her footwork into the field was really what what I was hoping she could contribute to the book and we have learned from each other since and we continue our weekly conversations even though the book projects are already done. But I was thinking of the in your question. We're also talking about a story about teaching that has influenced my practice. I remember I I originally came from Poland. So that's that's my accent. And I was I went through community college. I went through. I ended up doing my bachelor's and master's at NYU and then I went to for them to finish my doctorate. But as my first year experience of teaching statistics at the community college, I think was the most profound that really put me in a trajectory where I am today. And while in the teacher prep programs, you get a lot of methods courses to get you ready for school and for teaching when you jump into college teaching. It's your expertise in the content. You don't have any methods. So I stepped into the classroom and it was eye opening. But I really wanted to help my students as much as I can. So I ended up reaching to the third person. I said, you know, you know, what would you recommend? What are the best strategies to help students. And I could not believe what I heard. He started questioning my expertise in the topic that I shouldn't mean the classroom maybe what I was doing. I was so depressed after that conversation that I said, no, I'm going to look at the doctoral programs. I'm going to find out a better way to learn how to teach and how to help others teach. And that's how I ended up in the educational psychology program. And it's been my life ever since. Now you can go back and find that person say, look at my. Look at the title. He often comes to mind and it's just a reminder that this is what I don't want to do. So so that that makes a lot of sense. And it's a drive behind everything I do right now. I'm sure you can send the book to him. Great idea. I'm going to go back to my very first special education class and that was the 1975 and yeah, and I had eight students. Now we have things called individual education plans, which are built for each student in special education and reviewed annually. And so we have them now in 1975, the educational and the kept children's act hadn't kicked in yet. So I had a children and I really didn't know much about any of them. But this one young man was in the class and he struggled with learning to read that for sure. And he was so had attentional problems at times. He was extraordinarily bright and he was insightful about so many things concepts. He could generalize things. And after a year in my class, I realized this is not the place for him. But when you're in a system, that is the place because that's where they put him and it took me the good part of one academic year to finally get this youngster sent back to his homeschool in his regular grade level because he was capable of doing that. And he required a challenge to learn. He was bored. And so we had all kinds of attentional issues because he was bored. So back then was when I began to realize the only way to meet the needs of diverse population of students is to truly know who they are. And I'll probably talk a little bit more about knowing who they are in terms of the chapter that I wrote because it is important. But that young man and I still remember his name. He was the person who influenced me to move forward to become an advocate for these kids, but not just an advocate to be someone who could bring them through a learning process successfully. And that's when you know teaching here at Mlau, it was one of the things I tried to pass on to my students. No, don't tell me a student can't tell me how you're going to do it and tell me why you're doing what you're doing because if you understand the student, you'll understand what they need and then you'll be able to build the why. We all have those students that really change our trajectory of teaching. They change the way we see instruction and particularly like there are students who help me change the way to talk about students. I used to say can't can't can't until I had one student who realized that you can. It's the thing is like I just can't see what you're capable of and when I was capable of seeing what they can do. My practice change and so I were indebted to our students. I have been a lifelong learner and not necessarily from books and research. I've been a lifelong learner from being a good observer of students, whether they were in classrooms in school districts or sitting in my graduate level classes here at Boy. Well, let's talk about your book now every see every book has a seed what it was the seed for this book. So we were actually lucky to our friend Andrea Honex filed with also our mentor. We did receive an invitation to edit a book. So the book was written in like 1970s and the publisher wanted to get a new version of it. And as we started looking at it and we were looking for people who could collaborate with us and contribute their knowledge and expertise. We realized the book at times the language was almost offensive by current standards. So it could not be just updated with quick edits. It really needed to be rewritten. So we went back to the publisher and said listen, you know, we would like to really look at the concepts that were discussed there. It just has to be done from scratch. So that's how it took us almost three years to finish this book project. But that's because we were redefining everything that was in that original book. So we were grateful for that opportunity. But as we were looking at the classroom management, the topic is so vast that it ended up being two books instead of one. So what we're talking about today is this volume. So this is the engaging diverse learners. And this is a perfect volume for incoming teachers brand new to the field. Someone like myself when I was teaching that statistical course. But also for those who are ready to revisit some of their practices just to see what's out there currently in terms of practices to help work in the classroom and help students get engaged. So we're going to be able to see what's in the learning process in the learning process. And on the second book. So we tried to keep the theme similar and if you can see it well, but this one is student centered classrooms research, driven and inclusive strategies for classroom management. It's a little deeper. It's a little thicker and it looks at the issues of equity, diversity, social justice and inclusion and provides a lot of strategies. We look at a behavior analysis. We look at emotions. We look at gender equity in the classroom. So things that for the traditional teachers who enter the field 10, 15 years ago, those are new concepts. So they're not always ready to embrace them. So this is a very good, intertax think to that, that aspect of thinking about classroom and the classroom setting. And I've agreed with I agree with what everything that the Joanna mentioned. However, I'd like to go back for a minute and talk about the term classroom management. And that term, we needed to get a grip for ourselves on what that actually meant. How would we define classroom management? The way it was defined in the original volume from 1970 is totally different from anything that we would have used as a definition. And so we realized that in order for us to even get started with the book, we needed to have a mutually meaningful definition of classroom management. So conversations went on between Joanna and I. But then we extended those conversations to our potential authors. Because each of them had specific specific specific specific areas of expertise and experience. So we went to them and through their insight and our initial decision to expand the definition of classroom management. We, I would say probably about two months into the project, we were ready to go. We had the seed. We knew what classroom management meant to us. That's how we were able to reach out to our additional authors because we knew it's not just, it's not literal, it's not lateral. It's multi-tiered and so we were able to select members of our faculty and here at Malloy because they have the expertise. And so that's why one book grew into two books. It was just too much to meet what we really wanted to say in one book. So we made, we decided to do two books. It was too good. Just to have one book. And the beauty of it is that all the people that worked with us are somehow connected with Malloy. So besides the faculty members, we also had practitioners. Yes. Like field work supervisors that also teach with us, but they're pretty much in the field teachers. Also some of my EDD students who are in the program also contributed because they are professionals in their field. And they had a lot to say in particular. So we really tapped into a lot of various resources with expertise and mastery of knowledge on the topic, but also with more new fresh perspectives as well. Now let's hear about from their perspective. Let's talk about how do we motivate students for classroom management. Now as the chapter I co-wrote with my partner in crime with the movie next rotor. We both have interesting cognition and learning word code directing that cognition and learning lap that I was talking about. So this was just an actual outflow of what we practice in the classroom. But we started our chapter with an example of students who would like to get a black belt in martial arts. And use that as an example of how you can think about motivating students and there are two different approaches. You can start with, you know, I want a black belt. So that drives my motivation leads me to action and then the outcomes. The only issue with that is it's a long pathway to get to the black belt. So if my action leads not necessary to a success, my motivation can plan it. And I might quit by my yellow belt before I even reach the black belt. So it's important to think about how do we introduce opportunities for students to practice and go into action and have that action continue motivating them. So then that black belt is an outgrowth of the yellow belt, all aren't belt and so forth. There's a progression, but they have the bigger picture and then tools to work on those smaller tasks and goals. So that was our introduction. And in this book, we talked about the terms of determination theory. We talked about goal setting theory. We talked about growth mindset, just to introduce ideas of how you can show the students that they can rather they can't. And that was a very important aspect for us. One of the things I just want to mention from the book was we talked about constructive feedback. So in assessment that I teach and and also for the classroom management. If you have a student who gets stuck and they cannot do the project, they sometimes don't even know where to start. So by telling them you do do this, this and that might not be enough because you have to find out where the gaps are in their understanding in order for them to. Progress so that productive struggles sometimes is important, but the scaffolding element is important. So it's important for students to step back, find out where the student is in that educational journey, help them meet the next goal and in that way, continue promoting their motivation and engagement in the classroom. And one of the things we talked about in terms of classroom management is that engagement component that if you have a student who's engaged with learning, they don't have time to think about misbehaving in the classroom because they they are focused on things that are of importance. But we have to bring them to that point where they agree with you that what they're learning is something that that they should be doing and looking at that. So we talked about how to build student teacher relationships, build supportive learning environments, but most of all empower teachers to be in power in charge of their own learning. So being agents of their own learning. And I think that's the most important message from that chapter. Dr. Bird, do you want to add anything? Well, yes, that the term engagement that you just picked up on it and you want to elaborate a little bit more, you'll hear it again in the next chapter for stirring relationships because engagement actively being proactive and engaging students in the learning process with a classroom community is what brings them in when they're motivated when they're engaged. Management flows much more smoothly, first of all, and second of all, because you've planned for it, there's two things, engagement and being providing proactive planning in each segment. So we'll see these themes reiterated from one chapter to the next and not because of Joanna and I, because each member of the faculty, of each member of our of our author's desk will talk about it because they will value it. So I think that's something that's a takeaway for anyone looking at this book, the importance of being proactive in planning and understanding how to engage all kinds of kids, all kinds of diverse kids. So let's talk about that, like how what are the strategies to foster relationships and to engage students? Well, you know, it's very interesting because we all know how important relationships are to the growth of an individual or the success of a team or the success of a new initiative or a program, we all know that. We were very fortunate because the authors of this particular chapter were very pragmatic in their approach. They were very creative and insightful, but they were very pragmatic and they actually broke it down by their areas of experience. So one of the authors, Kathleen Skolunowski was is an elementary school teacher. So she takes part of the chapter as a classroom teacher and talks about how important relationships are in the classroom room for building a sense of safety. For being a sense of belonging and being a recognized contributing member of a community. The other author, another author is Mike Ferretti. Mike is actually a school district administrator here on Long Island. And he looks at engagement through the lens of restorative practices. How do we engage students in problem solving within the classroom? And so he points out a number of strategies that can actually be used successfully with again a diverse population of students who come from diverse backgrounds and get come together in one community, which would be a school or a building. The other thing that he pointed out and I thought this was their student on his part, the importance of continuity across a district. So he looked at the district administrator's role as building that continuity. You can have one building using one set of practices and another building using another set of practices. So he talks about all of that. So now what he does is he opens the door to open, he opens the door to communication across buildings and across administrators in the district. So that was very, very insightful. The last member of the of the author staff on that is Dr. Eve Daringer, who is actually here in the school of education and was she is the director of field placement. She's formerly a principal in the school district, Teran Long Island. And she talks about. She talks about fostering relationships by actually looking at candidates. You know, are we recruiting candidates that look like that sound like that share common cultural points with students. And so she works very hard at doing that kind of recruitment at the level of the college for the program. So I think it was so well laid out because it was very personal. And yet when it came together as a chapter, it was very cohesive in terms of how we can build and foster relationships engagement and community from a classroom to a district to a university. And hiring is so important. The administrators have so much impact in the in students experiences by simply the way they hire and who they hire. There's a message. There is a message there. That's right. That's right. Let's talk about how to personalize learning for classroom management. Okay, well, that's the chapter I wrote with my colleague from the college here. And I'd like to just take a minute and reflect back on things that I talked earlier about earlier that the fact that most of my life long lessons came from the students I worked with. My passion for education and my long my long lasting stand in this community with be the same without having met each and every one of those students who influenced my life. And I said, don't say this to store points. This is what I believe this is what I believe in. It's why I do what I do. I came because of my students. I came to realize early on that everybody can learn. And that the bar needs to be raised for everyone. No excuses. It's not the student. It's the it's the faculty and the classroom that bring the student to the goals. And so I started to think about well, I'm going to backtrack with the story. So I worked for a number of years here at the college in a we called it a pilot program about 12 years ago, but it went on as a program for 12 years. So I don't think it was a pilot program anymore. I worked with one of my colleagues who was a district administrator for social studies. And he's a bit and he'll he'll celebrated this. He's a bit of a social studies geek. Okay. He has very high expectations in the content area. And he came to me and said, Maggie, listen, I really think we should, if we're going, we should teach code teaching by actually code teaching. So we laid that plan out for the associate dean at the graduate school and she said fine. So our program had a code for code teaching class. And he represented the content. And I represented the supports. So we actually modeled different methods of code teaching, but more importantly, he could come every September with a new thing, whatever it was, he was reading something was a new thing. So one September, he comes in and he starts talking about officer, really, and his military strategies. So I sat back and I listened very carefully because I knew it had a point. I just had to wait for it. You have to wait for it. And he got to the point when you're developing military strategies, you're developing them because there are obstacles in your way to success. And so you have to figure out how to get around those obstacles. And so the obstacle becomes the new way. And that's exactly what I had been doing. Only I didn't use Marcus Aurelius. That's my example. So we actually he drew a model of what it was like if when you when you the obstacle becomes the way and every couple of weeks, like students would walk into the graduate course and we would pop that up on the screen and be talking about all the obstacles that they faced, you know, getting this course together. So what we did in this particular class and I'll explain the class and then I'll explain the chapter because once tied to the other in this class, we did co teaching. He his requirement for the course was that our students design a unit of study based on the based on the inquiry design model for classes. And we we assigned it based on if they were high school teachers, it was a high school curriculum, school, elementary school. And then I supported them to write and design and write individual sequential lessons that would get the students from the beginning to the end result to the learning outcome. What we did after that when they had their unit planned on and they had their lesson plans done. I then gave them three, then three students, a profile of three different students will be in their class, who were a little bit more challenging. And the first thing the students said to me was, why did you wait so long to give us these students. And I said, because it doesn't make any difference who's in your class, if that's the learning outcome, everybody has to meet it now do it. So then we went back to the individual lesson plans because they had been so good at using differentiation of instruction using universal design the country, the universal design, the universal design for learning framework and having had experience with co teaching, they were able to include all of that in their finished product. And for the most part, they were very successful at what they did. It wasn't easy. What is this chapter? This chapter is a bird's-eye view of that entire semester with all of the plans of how to be how to proactively plan for students, all kinds of students, because no matter what, every student has a right to learn and be challenged in the classroom. Oh, meanwhile, by the way, my friend Dr. Shan, I got him to join the most program and he's just completed writing the literacy based curriculum for all three years here. And so based on growth mindset, analyzing social media, the first question is, how do you know what you know is true? Okay, then it's who am I growth mindset? And the last one is answering the three questions. What's the most important? Who's the most important person? What's the most important thing to do? And when is it done? And that's developing, moving them into their role as members of a community. So thanks to Dr. Shan and his, the obstacle is the way we've really we've gotten past that obstacle is and we found the way. I think that you are going to help him stay away from retirement as well as he just was a person and his wife also. Let's move to talking about classroom management for culturally and linguistically diverse learners. Yes, so the others of this chapter, we had Dr. McDermott who's teaching with us and we had one of my DD students Lisa Pouloso. She's now a doctor as well. And she's actually joined, she has joined the faculty here at Malloy as well. So they collaborated on really coining the switch discussion on the historical and cultural perspectives of education in the United States. So they looked at the policies, the impact of populations shifts over the years in a classroom management type of settings. So their historical walkthrough of key policy changes over the years shown how first slave, then non-white children were deprived of the education opportunities. So it's really a historical concept, but it gives you a perspective on how far we went from when we were still defining what education is the where we are today. So there were ways of immigrants, that's how I can say immigrants from Poland, from Europe were coming and they were discriminated against then the next wet Asian population from Korea, China. So all of that those ways were challenging the educational system. So they're discussing how that has impacted where we are today. But then they shifted to talk about what does it mean for teaching. So what can we do to now meet the needs of our culturally and diverse students in the classroom and then put it they put it back on the teachers. So we have to start with ourselves as educators, who are we going back to the questions from Dr. She and right and what are our perspectives, what are our teacher expectations, what are our biases, stereotypes that we bring into the classroom, and how can we challenge ourselves to get to know the students who look differently, who come from different countries. So without getting to know them and communication that is so important, those needs cannot be met. So that's really the essence of where they're coming from. And I just have an observation after listening to Joanna speaking to you and for me and sharing that particular chapter. And I think that's really what they look at what they've written. You're looking at three individuals who are all not. I'm only first generation in this country. My parents are both immigrants as well. So you know, it really says a lot that we can talk about this. But we can use it to improve to stretch to demand and equitable education for a multitude of diverse populations of people. Absolutely. Thank you for that. Let's talk about, I feel like actually we should go back and talk about let's do fine classroom management because you talked about in your earlier research where the book should initially were the definitions of classroom management. Or not the definitions you would use now. So let's talk about that before we go into the next question. Well, classroom management, I think back in the 70s, only because I also lived it. No, I did was, you know, everyone does the same thing at the same time, but not always the same results. It was a top-down management approach. Students, they followed the old axiom students should be seen not heard unless gold on. It was very rigid. And that does not allow for young people to grow and grow into themselves. And it's certainly very stressful because with new populations coming in cultural norms are different. And you know, you've got to understand that we've got different kids today. We've got different family structures. We've got different cultural standards. We've got kids who learn differently. We've got all kinds of things that are different. And so where it would be a linear piece back in the 70s, now it's taking into consideration diversity. And when I say diversity, it can be cultural, but it can also be based on their ability based on their, I don't like to say disabilities. I don't like the term disability. I refer to my students as they have, they're different. They learn differently. They're diverse. They challenge you to do more things differently for them. But yes, you know, I think we need to do that. That needed to be done. And that was one of the problems that we had initially with the class with the book was the fact that it was just top down. And that's we're not living a top down world anymore. We're very much flipped in and what you have in the book are not necessarily interventions for when students get into trouble, but really a more proactive approach of how to prevent it. So how what can we do as teachers starting from the first day on in terms of setting the culture in the classroom expectations and then holding everybody accountable to that. So that is really how we view it and the title of the book says is all that that engagement piece is so crucial to how we view classroom management right now that this is our definition. So it's like you're responding to students needs instead of reacting to their behavior. Correct. And you create a class we do it proactively. Yes. And by doing that, you create a culture and you create learning engagements that make them love learning instead of reacting to them when they're not behaving. Yeah, it doesn't mean that they will not must behave, but they will have already tools and the teachers and hopefully students will have tools in place that will allow them to mitigate it and diminish it and resolve it if and when. And it's one of the reasons why I put that piece in on restorative practices because now that engages the students in the problem solving. And this is what was the problem and how do we solve it instead of the teacher solving it. It should be the community that solves it and the community really is the students. That's a beautiful community is really the students. Yeah, they create the community. Yes, they buy into it. You know, it's interesting because I would often start the graduate level classes first night of class and ask a simple question, who is the most important person in the district or who is the most important person, you know, in terms of the education. And then often I got the principal and I'd say no, and then they say, oh, I know the superintendent. No, and then they say, the parents and I'd say no, the most important people and my friends never lose sight of this fact are the students. Why? With no students, there are no parents. There's no jobs for principals and there's no jobs for superintendents. So start and we always remember this. It's the kids that we look at first. And that's your book student centered learning. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Let's move to our next question. Can you describe the communication strategies that support students for grade level transitions? So, so this chapter in communication, the biggest problem we had with it was not having this chapter, but was where are we going to put it in which book and in deciding on the book, then where in the book. So when you really look at this chapter or you look at all the preceding chapters, this particular chapter actually at this point serves as a linchpin connected all of the other chapters in this particular volume communication is the single most common theme identified and discussed throughout the book and engaging diverse learners. Effective communication is central is a central strategy to almost central to almost every strategy that's presented in the various chapters. So after Joanna and I reread the final reread of the chapters and we finalized all the chapters and where they were going. We decided to place this chapter on communication after discussions on student motivation, relationship building, personal learning, cultural and linguistic diversity, because each of those preceding chapters emphasized the importance of effective communication with the success of specific strategies. So in this way, a reader would come to this chapter having had experience with strategies that involved communication and so we decided to put it where it was because then it served as a closure to the strategies presented, but it also opened the door for the next section which eventually will be social emotional learning and again the importance of communication and that. So I think I think I think Dr. Park, who was the author of this particular chapter was very student when she pointed out that communication strategies provide a bridge between the chasm of information and the lack of contextual experiences that most pre K through 12 students have. Her chapter brings the opening of the open opens the chapters up for communication or reiterates the importance of communication and then for for strategies, but then also opens the door to the to the next section of the book eventually flows into the second book. It's like you plan this intentionally, we did it was very meaningful right very many know what it really was it was hard no no and and the importance of that chapters also talking about the points of transition where students struggle. Switching from middle school to high school high school to college and the shift in expectations is really overwhelming to students that key element of communicating to students helping them transition is so important so that's what she's also talking about. Your last chapter is on fostering social emotional learning for classroom management, can we talk about that. Absolutely and I recently was in a classroom with my students and one of them just asked me and also what is what is s CL and why do teachers struggle with with really embracing this type of approach and some of the things that she mentioned is that there's a lot of push back because the teachers are they don't feel their counselors. They're not the role they're here to teach and they have a heart and transitioning to thinking about s CL as one of the strategies that they can have in a toolbox to help students and especially also in relation to the classroom management so my answer to that for her was that. This is all very true we have to know where our roles and what is really what expertise we bring to the classroom and when it's beyond that we should shift to others who can help us with it. But the advantage of the teachers over any mental health practitioners is that they seek it's daily for several hours and they can spot when there is stamping off with the student and they might not know the definition of that they might not know why or how to deal with it at the moment. But they can jumpster that conversation and get other people involved with the students so it goes back to communication so in this chapter we have three mental health practitioners social worker counselor to social workers and a counselor who are talking about how teachers can now think about those strategies in the classroom so again they're not going to treat heavy to the trauma that happened to students. But they can teach them how to come down how to relax how to bring yourself to that point where there's fertile ground for learning to happen so students are not in that position where they can think about learning then learning is not going to happen no matter what you do as a teacher. So recognizing that element that's almost a precursor to everything that happens in the classroom can help teachers as well so so the strategies that are presented in the in the chapter really talk about what the teachers can do with that. I'd like to also go back for a minute because in your initial story we talked about the fact that teachers said that's not my role is not my responsibility I teach and I didn't just mention it earlier but one of the things that I talked about frequently in my classes and is also when the chapter of the cabinet I wrote is the fact that I never refer to my students as teachers. I refer to them as facilitators of learning and here's the reason why to teach brings a passive response from the student it's active for a teacher or the person but it's not necessarily active for the student if you facilitate learning you move the students into an active mode and we all know that when you learn things by practicing by doing by exploring you learn it. So teachers need to be able to facilitate learning and you can't facilitate learning if you know that a child in your class is struggling simply by observing him. All right, you've got to handle that first that's proactive in order to be successful with the academic piece. So one of the mantra is that most of my students left my class with was if you want to be if you truly want to be an effective facilitator of learning you need to be a keen observer of your children that's exactly what you want to do and was just talking about. So that's why it's pretty much all together active it's all about active proactive and knowing who your students are and where they are in a given moment. We hope that this book will well enter a new perspective for the teachers in terms of how they approach the classroom and equip them with strategies that could help them execute that so. Well, I hope that they see that the obstacle is the way through this book. Yeah, let's end the podcast this way. I have an activity called well a metaphor called traffic light teaching it's what would you ask teachers to do in terms of the classroom management in terms of red light stopping something they can stop doing yellow lights up in the kid keep doing. And green lights on me that they can start doing why not stop but not just stop stop and reflect what are your values what are your beliefs what's your mindset. If you don't start in a reflective way we don't know who we are so how do we help students so I think stop and we and then I then stop and reflect for the red light. Definitely the yellow light the continuing aspect of it is remember what you were talking about remembering the students are at the heart of everything though we do so how do we support them how do we build their skills how do we empower them and make them agents of their own learning that's that something that we should definitely continue doing and the green light the green light. Keep engaging keep talking keep sharing keep respecting keep pulling information from them you know let's let's become facilitators not just teach us. Well thank you for facilitating our learning in this in this podcast today I know teachers will appreciate all the authors on all the expertise that you brought together to help us see classroom management not as a response but as a proactive endeavor of learning. Thank you thank you thank you thank you everyone. Before we recap this episode I have a favor and an invitation my favorite is to ask you to please review this podcast my invitation is to check out my three courses on English learner portal one is on creating the conditions for amounts to thrive one on teacher collaboration and one based on my co author bug with Beth skeleton called long term success for experience multilinguals. Now on to our recap. As an ELD specialist I get to see lots of different teaching styles and classroom approaches when I co teach the elements of the most effective classroom management systems aren't actual systems the teachers that I respect the most aren't actually managing students behavior because they don't need to be managed. That's because students are engaged in the lessons because they're so active and hands on and also well scaffolded so there's less misbehavior because students have clear instructions so they know what to do and they're not frustrated but they're also not bored because it's quite engaging. This is what it means to redefine classroom management in particular for multilingual students hope you enjoy their book. Thank you for listening be safe and be rooted in peace. It's your turn to play traffic light teaching tweeted me either your red yellow or green light from this particular episode.