Ep. 16 | From Mysterious Sounds to Unbelievable Surprises: A Property Manager’s Wildest Discovery

Welcome to Multi-Family Grit, where we bring in the experts to share the pros and cons and celebrations and struggles of one of the most important industries in the US. Multi-family property management. I am joined today by Kristen Diamond, Vice President of Multi-Family Management at Heyman Company, one of the nation's leading privately owned commercial real estate firms with an incredible lineage of experience and success. Kristen's experience spans more than two decades leading diverse nationwide portfolios comprised of conventional market and student, senior, affordable, urban, high rise, mixed use and even some military housing. Essentially, you name it, she's done it, and she's extremely passionate about creating success through a lot of methods, but when I'm most interested in democratic processes, one of the many topics we are actually going to dig into today. And before we get started, we are sponsored today by Fortress, the only core property management operating system built with an emphasis for affordable owners and operators. Fortress revolutionizes affordable management by reducing applicant processing time to help save you money, generate cash and drive your teams and properties to success. And don't forget, if you like what you hear today, please like, subscribe and share with someone you think would enjoy this episode. So Kristen, thank you so much for being here with me today. Well, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here today. Yeah, same. And your experience in this industry is just incredible. You know, I speak with so many operators who have experience in affordable and in conventional, but rarely, I know I really do mean this rarely. Have I encountered someone who has such diverse experience as you do? So I'm excited to tap into that. Well, thank you. I actually consider that diversification, one of the greatest gifts that multi family has given me is that exposure to all the different types of of housing. So thank you. Thank you very much. I love that you look at that as a gift. I think that's, that's just so beautiful. And my last guest actually David and I discussed how important it is to choose how you interpret situations. So, you know, whether or not you, you choose to see opportunities like that, but it could be obstacles and you see them as gifts or opportunities. And so anyway, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Kristen, before we get started, before we dig in, I'd love for you to share with our listeners how you got your start. And then multi family industry. So like most are all of us. It was inadvertent, although truthfully, my parents did this back in the 70s and you know, 80s. I grew up putting notices on doors. Yeah, we. Oh, yes. The first time I've heard this, this is good. And you know, it was a long time ago where, you know, husband, wife or, you know, partner teams were just very popular and property management at the time. And my mom was the manager and my dad was the maintenance supervisor. It was how our family thrived, right? And so while I didn't recall while I was navigating childhood that that was particularly fun or not fun. I intended to go to school and be an elementary school teacher. I was going to teach third grade and that was my major with a minor in English. But when I was in college, multi family creeped up on me again. And that was my where I was living, the apartment community, the manager. This was so long ago, Carrie, I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but she smoked in her office. And I went into pay my, you know, $300 rent. And that's honestly what I think it was. It was not the best place. But to pay my $300 rent. And she said, you know, Kristin, you have a cute personality. How would you like to have half off your rent if you work, you know, work the weekends or work one day during the week and work the weekends. And I'll give you like half off your rent. I was like, find me up. Absolutely. So that's really, that was my start. And, you know, people say, well, what was your position? It's like, at least like part time final person. Like I didn't even trust me to lease apartments at that point. Right. So, but through that, I grew into, I really enjoyed how every day was different. And it wasn't like working at the grocery store or working at blockbuster. Yeah, blockbuster was open back there. I remember that day. And I just really enjoyed, enjoyed that every day was different. And so I moved into leasing and into full time and became an assistant manager. So, at the same time, I'm, you know, juggling my, my, you know, elementary education, education, and it kind of dawned on me. About that point that, well, actually, I joined the military came back, jumped right back into multi family. And it dawned on me that I really wasn't, I didn't feel as passionate about working with children. And so, I was enjoying the diversification of what multi family was providing me and all of those challenges. And so it ended up, you know, like Godfather sucking me in. And I have never done anything else since. Oh my gosh, that's such an awesome story. And think of finding your path and what you really enjoy and something that you didn't even realize when you were going to school. You know that that might be something that you would be so interested in. I feel like that happens to a lot of us, right? That end up in this industry. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, I love it. And just following your heart. And I do think that the multi family industry is so interesting. You said it so well. Use the word diverse over and over again. And it's so true. I mean, each little property, I mean, I say little, it could be 50 units. It could be 500 units. But each property property is its own business. I mean, it's absolutely managing legal issues and contracts and HR and IT and facilities and sales and collections and customer service. I mean, the list goes on and on. It's really incredible. And so you get to touch so many different facets versus if you were to go work in a big company, like a massive company, you don't even do one of those silos and you wouldn't have that exposure. So it's exactly exactly. Yeah. I think it definitely attracts those who are able to multi that naturally are natural multi taskers. That's such a good way. And who enjoy a speed of just urgency, right? Because there's there's while there's seasonality and Evan flow to what we do on a whole. There's just this kind of consistent, you know, wayward motion forward that every day. And so it's going to be a full robust day of all the many things that happen right all the things you named in so many more. Some people really thrive in that environment and enjoy that diversification again. And some, you know, some don't, but I was definitely one who took to it. Now, you and I have chatted so we're not strangers, but I did not know that you were in the military. I was in the United States Coast Guard. Thank you for your service. What caused you to do that? I think it was at a point where I was about 19 years old when I ended up joining and I was a little frustrated that I had not yet finished. Back up a little bit. I had graduated high school early. And so I had already been out of high school for almost three years at that point. And I was frustrated that I wasn't finished or a little bit closer to being finished. And so I think I just thought well by joining, then I'm not going to need to work plus, you know, go to school. Focus on the military, come back and then be able to focus full time on school. But multi family had a different idea. Oh, I love that. I don't think you knew this about me either, but I was actually in the army for a period of time. Yeah, well, thank you. So I joined the ROTC Jag and I actually fully contracted in while I was in law school and spent a summer at Fort Knox in the summer at Fort Sill. But I broke both of my feet while I was training at Fort Knox. So I wasn't able to fulfill my commitment. I had to be released for my contract. I did, however, get to spend a year working in Iraq for a department of state contractor, which was a really, really unique experience. And I'm very grateful for pumbling, eye opening, unique experience. And I'm super grateful for that. I don't know. I think there is really something to be said for contributing to your country in some form or fashion. I don't care how long it is. I don't care if it's like two years or 20 years. years, but I think. taking a part of your life and giving back in that way and in a public service fashion, I think, and it doesn't have to be with the military. There are lots of other ways to do it. But anyway, I just think it's not only really good for the energy in the world, for everyone to take time to do that, but I think it's just it's so rewarding and it really opens your eyes to a very different area of life that you wouldn't have ever otherwise had that experience. Do you know what I mean? I 1,000% agree with you. I think it's a completely different perspective. Yes. That I gained from that. I'm so so grateful for my experience. I walked away for sure a better human and a more developed adult. And not that I feel I was undeveloped, you know, or immature walking into it. But I think there's just that sense of selflessness that the only thing I can compare it to now at this point in my life would be, you know, I'm a mother of four and adult children. And my experience in the Coast Guard was just it was country first, right? That organization first, the mission first, everything else was second. And you know, short of becoming a mother and then it's children first and family first. I really, you know, had had nothing else like that in my life, you know, to to that point. And to be surrounded by men and women that share that same vision and that same sense of sacrifice and commitment, you use the word humbling. It's extremely humble, right? To be surrounded by hundreds and thousands of people that all share in that. It's it's really incredible. I've had people say to me, oh, I could never do it. I could never do it because I just don't I just don't take orders, right? I'm just not someone who takes orders and just blindly obeys, obeys orders. And you know, it's like, well, you know, you're right. You're probably not a good fit. But you know, it's it's it's that's that's really where the beauty is, right? Is is in loving our country, loving our country and loving loving our I love the Coast Guard. I love my fellow coasties and, you know, so much that regardless if I was 100% sure of what I was doing, was right or not right or or even what to do, I was waiting for that direction and trusting that direction that I was doing the right thing or the greater whole. So it's, you know, it's it's an amazing experience. Also help me learn how to better defend myself and articulate. Not even to defend myself, but articulate position myself into you. We have to be able to actively listen and take information in before we can share information out, right? With with anyone. So I think I think the military prepares us for all of that. I couldn't agree more. You know, he said something about putting the mission first and having learned that there in a way that you wouldn't otherwise learn until you had kids or if you had kids because not everybody has kids, but you right? Learn to put something before yourself and it's so funny because anytime anything difficult happens in my professional life now where it's like, you know, we've had crazy stuff happen where we show up at a hotel and we had, you know, three rooms booked for three women, myself and two other women on my sales team and they only have two rooms for us. And so like we have to bunk up, like someone has to share a room and it's so funny when I, because, you know, my two team members are like, oh, we don't experience this. You know, it's not like they're mad or anything, but it wasn't their expectation. And so it's like, cool, we don't know each other that well or whatever it is. And I'm just like, it's so funny, because when I lived in a barracks with 40 other women, no, I'm like, hey, I'm always down to share a room. It doesn't bother me at all. It's not 40 other women. It's fine. Oh, true. So true. We have to choose between two queen beds. We're not arguing who's on the top and bottom bunk. Exactly. Exactly. So I love the perspective that it, that it kind of just completely shifted in my life. So absolutely. And it's so funny. You were speaking about the person who said that they don't take, I can't take orders and blah, blah. It reminds me of a quote that's near and dear to my heart because I'm a huge meditator. But there's a quote that says, if you don't have time to meditate for 30 minutes a day, then you should meditate for an hour. If you're the type of person who is saying, no, no, I don't have time. I don't have time. I don't know if I like that you're actually the person who needs to do it more. So I would say that the people, I'm assuming, men. But the people that you've been talking to are like, I can't take orders. And you're the ones who need it the most. Right. Exactly. Exactly. That's true. I will say it taught me there's one human from my experience at Fort Knox that I will never forget Drill Sarge and Bryant. And man, I don't know if you read or have read any of David Goggins books. There's some good and there's some bad to him. But anyway, he talks about how, and this is a general philosophy, I think, in the military, where it's like we are our brains tend to shut down at 40%. So like we generally think that 40% is like our maximum output. It's actually only 40% of what we really could do and that there's a whole nother 60% beyond what we thought we could do. But it's because our brains kind of shut down. But physically we could go past it. And Drill Sarge and Bryant got me past 40% many, many, many times. And I hated him for it. I was miserable. I'm sure you can recall some of those times in training or miserable. But it like taught me that there's this whole other side of me that I'm capable of so much more than I ever thought, which I think that that that is an experience that military gives that is very rare. I think that a lot of people don't ever experience. I agree with you. I've said before I I'm not an advocate nor would I push everyone to be in the military. But I do think that bootcamping of itself even just just bootcamp if every American could experience what we learn and how we develop through bootcamp. It's I think just an incredible, amazing experience for everyone. So I you know day one I just felt like this like helpless little bird that, geez, I didn't know left from right up from down, you know, it was it was there. I was terrified. And on graduation day, you know, three months later, I felt like the strongest human being on the planet. I mean, there was no one, right? Like I was it was just as if, you know, the sea parted and Kristen Diamond came walking through and was like, wow, look at this incredible thing I did and that I was a part of and that's that's what they do is, you know, they they that saying they they I don't know break you down. Yes, so much, you know, but they definitely rebuild you up, right? Into what is expected. Yeah. It's it's an incredible incredible, I think, opportunity for everyone if they could offer that right? Like get out of high school, go to bootcamp and then decide what you want to do. You know, oh my god, I've never heard someone say it that way and I'm on the bandwagon. I love that so much because you're right. They do break you down. But what they break down is that feeling of being a helpless bird, which we all felt right when we went, right? But that's what they break down. They break down like the mental blocks that we have that we think we're not capable of doing it. Are we can only do 10 pushups when really you could do 50? Like, you know, but it's that it's breaking down that block. It's breaking down this sense of of individuality that's negative where it's like I have to do everything and I'm the only one and it's me, me, me, which this world tends to, especially Western culture really tends to push, but becoming a part of a team and saying like you don't have to do it by yourself. Like you have a team that's going to help carry you there. And in fact, without the team, you couldn't accomplish the mission. So like you need people and so I think it breaks down like that inherently implies something native. But I think it's really a positive experience. It just breaks down that all the blockages that we have in our mind to then allow us to like rebuild in this incredible way. So I love that. I love that idea. I have so many ideas of what high school students should be doing instead of what they're actually doing in my school right now. And now I've added that to my list. I'm the next podcast. Curriculum in the United States. That's going to be a big one. I'll have to have you back that one for that one since you actually have education in it. And I do not. So, oh, too bad. Well, my goodness. I had no idea we were going to spend so much time talking about something that is so unique, I think, for us to have both have had that experience. I love that. Thank you for chatting about that with me. But probably going back to what you thought we were going to talk about. So life at the Heyman. What are you guys working on right now? What sort of initiative are you excited about and looking forward to in the new year? - Well, you know, it's changed a little bit with fluctuating interest rates over the last several years. - Yeah. - Our acquisitions have slowed down a bit. We're still growing, but more so on the like third party side and so forth. So we're really focused on like our systems and our processes and policies and how we improve those in a meaningful, impactful, and efficient manner. And while those things, efficiencies, policies, procedures are always evolving. I think what's different now is that there's just so much technology. There's so much, there's a eye now in the impact of the client influence. And there are just so many different opportunities on how to approach all of those things that there's, I think, a little bit of disconnect between all of them. And it becomes how do you are for us now? What we're focused on is how do we communicate, collaborate together as an entire company to be on the same page and ensure that we're not just looking at the right things, but we're going about it the right way, right? And in a manner that people are buying into, they're engaged and have ownership. So our initiative for this year, we actually started it in 2024 and we're building on this in 2025 is a committee approach to all of the different components of property management. So, you know, we've talked about sales and marketing, financial analytics, policies and procedures, training and development, maintenance and facilities, and we've talked about the kind of things that we've talked about, that we really are collaborating, we're doing it together. It's not another damn corporate initiative that gets ignored. Maybe the email gets flagged if we're lucky it gets flagged. And there's just higher, there's a higher level of adoption and buy-in because it's peers rolling this out, not that Charlie Brown adult voice, right? You know, it's like, "Oh, okay." Well, Andrew did this. That must mean that if Andrew can do this, then I can do this. Then I can do this. Right? And so there's just a little bit more, I think authenticity in what we're doing from the beginning, by adopting this method. Yeah, oh, I think that's so smart. I mean, I can't tell you how many times we have seen on-site team members through my past 13 years of experience in multi-family, we've seen on-site members immediately rebel. It's like immediate. It's like as soon as you say anything's new, and they're just immediately like, "Mm-mm." And it's not because they're terrible humans, but any means. It's because they've been burned before, and they know how easy their job is. And they're like, "I can't take another hour's worth of energy." Like, "I'm not fulfilling my day-to-day commitments in a way that I'm proud of, as is." Especially, like, as a leasing consultant, I'm not fulfilling my commitments to the level I would like to be filling them to today, and you're gonna give me something else to do and deal with? And so, it's like this immediate drawback. But I think to your point, if Andrew says it's a good idea, and Andrew's done all the research, and he's been in the meetings, and not just Andrew, but Andrew and James and Sarah and Melissa. That's right. And all the 70% of this committee was my peers, and they said it was a good idea, and it's like, "Okay, maybe I don't have to walk away from it immediately. Maybe I'll give it a chance." Well, and even I can tell you, I'm in a couple of the committees myself, and the committees I'm most passionate about, and there's a, we call it our code of conduct, that we all signed before we jump on one of these committees, and it's basically covenants or commitments that. We go into this number one, the 70% rule, right? So it has to be a committee is not considered a quorum. If it's not comprised by a majority of on-site team members. So that's the first thing we always create in agenda. We have minutes. But things like confidentiality, leaving our ego at the door. We take a democratic approach and we vote. And so we'll vote on what our own thoughts are. So for me personally, I could tell you there have been initiatives that perhaps my initial thought was something a little different. But when I see that goodness 80% of everyone on this committee is leaning this way. It's a it's a nudge and a reminder for me that, wait, I'm not looking at this. I there's another way for me to look at this. And so it's a remind and I think. Again, it's not intentional on any of our perhaps, but I think just as professionals were very busy. Very, very busy in this industry. And sometimes that's maybe one of the greatest challenges and mistakes that we make is because we're movies so quickly we don't take that minute to say, oh, is there another way. Is there something something more I can do is there is a different way to look at this. You know, or am I just that need your kind of reaction that you described in my in my condition to just respond the way I think I should respond. It's just so important we keep we keep learning like I say this to people and I feel like it sounds self deprecating, but I actually mean it that I feel like I know less today. Then I knew 30 years ago when I started this, you know, and it's just because things are changing so quickly and there are so many different ways to get to a finish line. And mine isn't the best one. And I've learned that. I have so much respect for that. In fact, I would agree with you that I know less today than I did 30 years ago. And it's because I am aware of the fact that I know less now. That's right. And I think there's something so incredible about getting to that place of humility where it's like, I don't really know anything like everything I think I know is my perception of reality based on my experience of life. And where I'm sitting today and going into that room and being open to hearing what everybody else has to say, especially those who are it like boots on the ground in the day to day in the muck dealing with the reality of multi family management and their perception is very, very, very different and very important. And so I have so much respect for that for saying that I don't I don't really know anything anymore. Let's just take a step back and listen to the people who are dealing with it day to day and what they have to say. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that you and I'm so glad you brought it up the code of conduct and the covenants that you abide by in these meetings. But I do have to ask still. And I think it's brilliant. And it's still hard to get, especially the committees you're on. Is it still hard to get people to speak up? Initially, I would say when we first started, definitely more so than than now. And so I will tell you, and so by limiting to corporate team members on this was out of the gate, how we feel we we've been successful both during confidence because let's face it. And so I think that society of norms and a society of the majority. Right. And so kind of back to my well, if 80% of the committee is thinking acts and I'm thinking why the comfort comes in. And so we've tried to, yeah, we've tried to layer it that way intentionally. It's by design so that there is comfort out of the gate being able to speak up. And so the other thing is we've all gone through like the regionals and I some some level of like facilitation training how to properly facilitate how to properly properly facilitate these types of committees, right, because there is a propensity. And so I have involved in something I have no problem jumping in and let's take the, you know, let's, let's grab grab everything by the bootstraps and pull up and get started and so forth. But, you know, it's, it's really important that we, and we learned approach these things differently that the facilitator isn't always a corporate team member. In fact, we rotate, we even rotate who takes minutes. Sometimes I'm the minute taker in the group or, you know, for the committee. And or I am the agenda, you know, topic collector for the for the following month. And I think that by everybody by rotating that way. And structuring structuring the committee meetings in such a manner, we've, we're just continuing to kind of build off of that synergy of creating more free flow in communication. Oh my gosh, that's so smart. You know, the biggest part of all this, I think is from a psychological standpoint is creating that psychological safety so that they can speak their mind and so they can be open and honest and those sorts of things. And you doing that in two really specific ways that creating the safety and numbers is so smart. So strategic and so intelligent. And then, but the fact that you've taken that a step further and actually implemented this facilitation training for some of the leaders is really incredible. So you took that training. I did. Could you share anything from that training that you learned specifically or maybe something that stood out to you as a skill that you hadn't thought about before or that you've been able to put to use. I think one of the most profound and for myself, what I put myself through was an a a a a a I T training. So like national faculty training. And that is a multi day over the course of a week process and it really required a lot of vulnerability. I will be honest. I remember one of the first thing one of the facilitators said it kind of struck this like bootcamp course in me a little bit of not everyone who is here today will be here on Thursday or Friday. When we finish and I was like hmm. Not what you're expecting to hear in a class like that. Exactly. Exactly. But as I as I navigated the classes, I quickly figured out why because they were not this was not just to participate and at the end of this. You you get your certification was actual real in the moment coaching and feedback as to how I would deliver information. From little things that I learned about myself like even even in this podcast you're seeing I talk a lot with my hands and you know how for someone else that could be perceived in an aggressive manner, right, not my intent at all, but it could be perceived that way. So I learned things like you know how to talk about those things try to identify how others receive information best. If I'm sensing any discomfort from someone in the cues that people give us as we're talking and sharing information. If I'm sensing like hmm, I don't know if Carrie is enjoying all of my hand movements. Maybe I should talk about it. Maybe I should you know, I love that. And it required a tremendous amount of vulnerability to to to go through that process. And this was just really it's perception and you said this right perception is reality not my intent right and so making sure that the first focus isn't even necessarily the content. It's not what we're working on. It's not even what I have to deliver. It's how it's being perceived. It's not because that's what matters. And from that moment, that's also where the magic happens. Yeah, right is is how is it perceived and then how does that person take it and and share that with their orbit and just keep spreading that. Yeah, oh, I love that so much. And I really like thinking about it in a business setting. And in all honesty, I'm, I think I think about it a lot less from a business perspective. Personally, and you said it, you know, having children, I have two boys and having children teaches you so much about life and yourself and who you are as human and how you engage with others. And the thing that I learned so early on with my oldest son is that there is a big difference between intent and impact. And my intent with him is always so good and so pure and so righteous and so wanting him to have all the experiences in life that he can possibly have and understanding of life and all these things. But my impact to him a lot of times when I'm going on and on is like, oh my God, it's another freaking life lesson from mom. (laughing) - Right. - You learn really quickly that your intention versus your impact or two very, very different things and you have to figure out a different way, like if you're going to have the impact you want, then you have to figure out a different way to accomplish it with different groups of people to your point. Like understanding those that don't like, I'm a mover too, but I'm sure that don't like the movement or where that could feel aggressive and it's like, I'm not aggressive, but then it's like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. - That's right, right. - All about the impact. So I love that. - Yeah, absolutely. - And thinking about it in terms of those committees is brilliant. And I obviously, I am a fan of all the different committees that you've mentioned. I'm with you and then I'm a huge multi-tasker and I love to kind of have my hands in a lot of different pots and get to stir up a lot of different things. But I'd love to know, do you have an example of a success from one of these committees that you're super proud of or something that you guys have accomplished through these committees that, oh, I guess it doesn't mean that you have to be a success. So if you do, or a failure and a failure, I think either are, they're both incredible learning opportunities. - Well, I think one of the, and this really is an industry wide related challenge for all of us right now on the staffing side. And I actually believe not to digress, but I believe we have staffing challenges both on the front of the house and the back of the house. Office and maintenance, and we talk a lot about maintenance, but I do think it's both sides, but specifically maintenance, we had an initiative last year for our maintenance teams to reduce turnover. Turnover is extraordinarily high on the site level for maintenance, particularly it's extremely competitive right now, as far as hourly rates have increased 30, 40% even in just the last 24 months. So our initiative was really, and this hails from the WeCare Committee really trying to focus on, how do we show our maintenance team members, how much we value them really, and what the impact that they have, not just as a team member of ours, but also for the communities in which they serve and just show them love and appreciation because really they are just, boy they're dealing with just the thick of everything, right? Everything that's gross and dirty and nasty and hot and cold and you know, three o'clock in the morning and you know, they just do, they do so much. So the initiative was how do we do that? How do we reduce turnover and how do we show appreciation, right? And so we started to go through kind of the normal gamut of what we could do a maintenance appreciation week and we could do you know, a maintenance, a maintenance technician or a groundskeeper of the month or you know, all of these different ideas by lunch, you know, all of this stuff. And we ended up, through this committee coming up with, no, we're gonna do something different, we're gonna do a summer celebration, like the busiest season of all, the heart that, you know, they're working hard all year round. But summer, it's just doubly complicated by all of the turns and so forth. So exactly, exactly. Summer is brutal. Lots of emergency calls and so forth. So we decided we were gonna make this a summer celebration of our maintenance team at Hayman Company. And so we did this in a variety of different ways. We put together a kit, a summer kit for each maintenance professional that included neck fans, cooling towels, spray misters. We purchased, we identified, located and stocked a fridge. Every, twice a month with nothing but their favorite food, drink, snacks, jerky, you name it. I mean, they're like maintenance wow fridges, right? - Oh my gosh, that's amazing. - Along with, you know, little Tylenol packs and Advil, all of that too. And so that was our focus, right? Like in all summer long, this was just like, there's no budget excuse. There's, we're not saving money on this. We're not like, this is, we are doing this for every single one of our maintenance team members. And we actually saw, you know, average maintenance turnover is, you know, about 55%. I would say, which is just ridiculously high. Nationally, it can be as high as 70%. So we're doing better than the nationwide, but it's still very, very high. And summer, where we would expect it to be high, that's typically where it's higher than ever, right? Because we have the most burnout. We actually reduced that by just a few percent, but it was still a reduction when typically, like we will see it, creep as high as, you know, 60% or more. So to me, that was a huge win. And really, based on the feedback from the maintenance teams, we learned even more, right? Like, hey, it's great that you provide uniforms, but they're kind of the wrong uniforms. Like, we hear some more uniform ideas that we would like to share with you. This would make us more comfortable. Hey, the ID badges you provide, we like them. We think they're important. We agree with you, right? But we really want, you know, something that's more breakaway or that we can Velcro onto instead of having a, a land nerd or something that's like, you know, and it's like, wow, like if we had not opened, it's not for that initiative, and we had not opened up the committee to work on that and then be open to that feedback. There are multiple examples, right? There are things that we would have never learned that were important to our maintenance team members. - Yeah, oh, that's such a great story. And it's so impressive, honestly, that you guys were able to put that issue together. I've never seen a maintenance wild fridge. So I've heard a lot of things, so that's incredible. And I agree, anything that you can do to reduce that turnover, it's so tough on the main inside. And I do, I think 55% is not bad, honestly. It's just rough out there right now. So any initiatives that you guys have done where you maybe weren't so successful? - Oh, I mean, we're gonna need to book like 400 more sessions together, Karen. (laughing) We don't have enough time together. I love that, that response in and of itself is perfect, actually, because I will say, one of my mantras with my team is that if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough, like peer, and if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. And something that I read from Elon Musk's book, which I don't know if you've read it, but it's Isaacson's biography of him. I don't know if you've read it. It's an incredible look, a phenomenal story. But, and whether you like Elon Musk or not, it doesn't matter. But he has this philosophy, right? It doesn't matter. He's been successful, that's all you can say. And so he has this philosophy that you should, that everything should be simplified so much. In other words, let's say you have this component that goes into Tesla, right? This is this component that's been created. He, his philosophy is you should tear apart, like take as much off of it as possible. To the point where you took too much, and you have to put 10% back on. So it's the same as like you should be pushing so hard that like if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. If you didn't take too much off, that you had to put more back on, you didn't try hard enough. You didn't try to take enough off of it, right? And so I love that response, because it means that you're trying really hard, and that you're not afraid of failure, because you know that that's inevitable, if you push, and you try really hard. Absolutely, absolutely. Our project list for 2025 is essentially 154, I think, different areas of, for the committees, that are areas of improvement failure, we need to do better, we have to improve, right? And so they're not just wants, you know, we want to. They are, you know, areas that we've identified are shortcomings today for us, and that, you know, we can do better if we focus as a team, you know, on those items. Yeah, I love it, that's such a great answer. And I think that sets us up well for the last few questions that I have for you, which, as you know, on my podcast, I, because we talked about it, not because I assume you've listened on my podcast, but we've talked about that. I have listened, I have listened to, I actually very much enjoy your bike. I've listened to like multiple, probably four or five. at this point. So thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And I have to say this is going to be a great addition. I had no idea we were going to spend the first 20 minutes talking about what we talked about, but I loved every second of that conversation. So I'm excited for this podcast. That's something that honestly people who have known me for a long period of time, like they've never heard me say those things. And I wouldn't have if not for your experience and such a great conversation. So yeah, I'm really excited about this one. But and I'm very excited for your answer to this question because you've been in the industry. And you I'm assured how to a lot of experiences. And like I said at the beginning, I don't know that I've ever met anyone who has the diverse experience you do. So I'm very excited to hear your story about multi family. Well, you know, I will profess with something we all say when asked that question is, OK, the person who compiles everything and publishes, they're going to be on the national bestseller. I forever. Yes. I've said I'm going to do it, but you know, I have it. That's such good story. I'm going to go back. I'm going to jump in my Bill and Ted's excellent time machine. And I'm going to go back to when I started as a manager. And so 25 years ago or so. And I had a probably manager at a year at this point. So still very, very, very new. But I had a resident call me and say, hey, I, and for context, these are three story buildings, common, common area entry. So, you know, for apartments on each floor and shared, they all shared an interior like common hallway space. OK. So she calls and she says, you know, I'm my upstairs neighbor. They have like at least 500 birds. I mean, I am hearing birds and chirps and whistles and bird song all night long. I cannot sleep. It's like hundreds of birds. I'm telling you hundreds of birds. Really like hundreds of birds. I'm it's for sure. I'm like, OK, well, thanks for letting me know. Let me let me dig into this and I'll follow up with you before the end of the week. I call the resident above above her. And I said, hey, you know, how's everything in your apartment? He's like, oh, yeah, it's everything's great. It's cool. I can't, you know, a couple neighbors have mentioned that they've heard like some birds out. I mean, that's such a strange thing to even say. Right. I don't even ask that question. Do you have 100 birds in your apartment? Do you have 500 two birds in your apartment? But, you know, couple neighbors said that they're hearing like bird bird bird whistles, chirps. You know, and do you have birds? No, no, no birds. Like you could even come in my apartment. Like, I don't have any birds. And I was like, OK, I said, if you heard anything, like, if you heard any bird, he's like, no, I, well, I mean, maybe a couple days ago, I think I might have heard some like birds, but I those are like, those are birds outside the apartment. Like that, that was outside. OK, well, listen, thanks. I appreciate it. Let me know if you do hear anything. We hang up. I call the resident back who complained and I said, hey, I didn't say hey, but I said, I said, yeah, the culture neighbor and, you know, he is, you know, he's confident he doesn't have any birds doesn't have any animals. And I'm wondering because he did mention he thought he might have heard something that maybe there's something outside like a bird's nest. So I said, I'm going to send maintenance, you know, do perimeter walk around the building. And see if there's some nest or something like that. She's like, OK, fine. She's like, but I mean, I'm a 40 something year old woman. I think I know what birds sound sound like and where they're coming from. I'm like, I agree, I agree. We hang up maintenance does inspection. No bird nest found nothing. She calls back. Probably not even two weeks later. She's like, I told you, I told you that this person like this, this guy above me has birds. And again, all last night, I didn't get sleep. I can't go to work. Now I missed work. You're going to give me a right credit. You know, just the whole the whole gamut. And I said, OK, you know what I am so sorry. I'm so sorry that you're experiencing this. I understand this must be incredibly frustrating. Let me get into that apartment. I said, are you sure it's the upstairs. I'm 100% sure. So, OK, let me let me schedule an inspection of the apartment. And I'm going to follow up with you. But I hear you. I understand how serious this is. I'm dying. She's like, you know, it's about time. I'm like, OK, I got this, you know, I call fall the neighbor again upstairs. And I'm like, hey, I'm sorry to bother you again. But you know what we're thinking that maybe it's in his he's on the top floor, right? She's sandwiched between. We're thinking, you know, maybe there's something in the fence or maybe the balcony rafters like not we're not exactly sure. But, you know, we'd like to come in tomorrow and just take a look. Is that OK. He's like, OK, that's fine. He's like what time and we say a time and maintenance and I go the next day. The apartment is clean tidy. There's not a lot in it. Maintenance checks events checks the balcony rafters looks for good measure at the balcony floorboards like nothing we could find nothing. The only thing that I could know in no birds, obviously, no pets, no pictures of birds, no stuff animals like nothing. There is nothing in the apartment. The only thing was one is a two bedroom apartment is there was an imprint like a large rectangular imprint in one of the vacant, there was one vacant bedroom on the floor like in the carpeting that I could see and I was like, oh, he must be like, maybe he moved to bed or he's moving in. He's buying a new bed, whatever the case might be. OK, didn't we think about it. So I call her back. I say, hey, now I actually inspected there's no bird, no pictures of birds, no stuff, like there's nothing there. And she's like, well, clearly you don't, you don't want to help me. Clearly, this isn't serious for you. And I said, you know, it is like at this point now, even maintenance and they said it was the building had zone valve heat. They said that they were willing to come back up to your apartment and see if maybe sometimes zone valves whistle. She's like, I know what a bird chirp is like, well, we would just like to verify that your zone valve, because that's in your apartment. Because it can whistle, it can sound like that. And then we're going to hire a contractor to come in and go in the kind of the attic and just make sure there's nothing. She's like, why would an attic that I'm not even facing the attic. Like, why would the attic even know? And I'm like, I hear you, but, you know, I'm trying to like rule all things out here. So I do those things. It yields nothing. She calls the corporate office. She talks to my regional, my regional calls me says, Kristen, what's going on. I said, you know, Rhonda, I'm like, get a loss here. I don't know what to do. Here's all the things we've done. She's like, well, it sounds like you've really done like mostly everything you can. The only thing I would suggest at this point is I would expect all 12 people on that side of the building and inspect all of their apartments. And I was like, I'm not picking it first. I just seems like whatever. But it's like, okay, do it. What do you think that that showed nothing, no birds, no pictures of birds, no stuffed animals, nothing, no birds. The resident comes in about a month later and she gives her notice. Yeah, she just gives her notes. She's like, you know, I knew you weren't, I knew from the moment I called you, you weren't going to take this seriously. So she turns in her notice, she moves out. And in that moment, she turned in her notice, I will tell you, Carrie, I will admit that while it's always sad to lose a resident, right. This is a small part of me that was like, thank God, you know, like this woman in her santa bird thing. And you know, she had just made me feel in that in my team. And so, you know, I was kind of glad that she was leaving. So she moves out. I think it's all behind us. I never have to talk about it again until maintenance comes into my office and says, hey, we're working in her apartment. Because she's moved out, yeah, doing the turn in the ceiling, sleeping, the kitchen, ceiling is leaking. We need to go in the apartment above. And so, we thought his sink was or sink or dishwasher was leaking. I was like, okay, well, hold on for just a second. I need to call him and just tell him that we're going in, right. Because it's life safety at that point, right. But we haven't given notice. So I want to just notify. And so I call this guy. And I said, hey. It's me again. But this time it's there's something leaking in your kitchen that's leaking into the apartment below. So so we're going to we're pulling the keys. We're going to have to go in. It's like, oh, no, you won't. It's like you will not go into my apartment. It's like you and I said, well, I'm sorry. I said, you know, I understand that this is very inconvenient, but you know, you're actively leaking. You're something in your apartment is actively leaking into the apartment below you. He's like, I don't care. I'll be there. I'll be there like in an hour or two, but you're not going to my apartment. It is illegal for you to go in my he gets like, it's a completely different human being than this guy I adult with all these other times before. And I was like, well, I understand your frustration. I said, you know, for that reason, I'll company maintenance in your apartment. I said, but we have to go in. He's like, don't you dare go in. I'm on my way. Don't you dare go in. I'll call the police. I'm like, click and I made the decision. Well, we have to go in. It's actively leaking, right? Yeah. And if he calls the police, great, because we have every legal right to go into the apartment. We go into the apartment. Maintenance goes straight to the kitchen that something had, I don't know, become disconnected. I have no idea. I'm not sure what was going underneath that thing, but it's something was leaking. But I'm standing there as I promised the resident that I would do. And I hear like a letter playing like rumble chirp. Rattle, quank, rumble chirp. And I'm like, hmm, that chirp sounds suspiciously like a bird. Oh, no, no, that's so good. I'm like, she was right. This whole time she's right. I walked down the hallway in that bedroom that was vacant is a big metal cage with a mountain lion in it. A mountain lion. Carry my heart. It's like it was beating regularly. My heart came out of my mouth. Look at me said, hi, I need it was the most terrifying. It's like I truly think I left my body, right? I feel like I just floated above my body. I closed the bedroom door as if this hollow door is going to do anything. Now the lion was not he wasn't his cage or she was in her cage, but it was still a lion in an apartment. I go back out into the living room. I'm like, Dale, we have got to go. He's like, no, I'm not done. Like I don't turn the water off. Do whatever you got to do, but we have got to leave this apartment now. He's like, okay. I said, okay, we need to call police. There's a lion in the apartment. He's like, there is not said. I was just in the apartment with you. There's a lion in that apartment. No, I called the police police show up. They called like some wild refuge sanctuary group that came got the lion and that lady was interviewing me like, how did you not basically it felt like, how did you not know there was a lion living here for all this time. And I said, no, like she's like, you never saw him walk. Of course, I never saw him walking on the lion. You never heard like there was no resident, no other neighbors that complained about like any sounds or so forth. And I said, no, I mean, the only thing was, okay, the downstairs neighbor said that he had like birds. It was like birds. Like we were checking for nest and things like that. And she said, did you not realize that's what mountain lion sound like. Oh, yes. Yeah. I'm like, I'm sorry in my zoo. I'll a G background. But I will tell you I learned from that a very powerful lesson right. She was right that whole time she was right that well, she wasn't right. There was something chirping up there exactly exactly. So sometimes what I think I know the answer and it seems so right. And I just like, I'm 100% certain I always have this like little piece of me that goes back to that event. I'm like, oh, there's a possibility that I'm not a certain is I think I think I know and that's there's a lot of my oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Christian, that was such a good story. And you are such a good storyteller. Thank you. That was that was fantastic. I was like on the edge of my seat the whole time. Like I can't wait to find out what this is. I'm so excited. That was not what I was expecting, but you are right. The person who finally sits down and aggregates all these stories into a book New York Times bestseller all day. That's right. That's right. Well, speaking of books, my last question. I've mentioned to you. I'm an avid reader and I love it when people share book recommendations with me. So do you have a book recommendation that you would like to share with me and my guess. I have read many, many good ones, but I think most recently my favorite would be it's a collection of small journals from the Harvard Business Review about emotional intelligence. And so each little there's like mindfulness and focus and you know there's there's just influence how to influence, you know, conversations and others. But it's the equivalent of like who moved my cheese or fish, you know, it's a very short small read. And it's been a because it's all emotionally emotional intelligence focused. It's just filled with like real real life examples of the psychology of how all of our minds work and been very helpful in, you know, the last couple of years. And so that's changed as far as the dichotomy of. And so it's a skill I feel like I needed to improve on and it's been it's it's a great read. I'm not through the series completely yet, but I think I have four or four of the books down now under my belt. So I would very much recommend that one. And so I'm going to go to that recommendation. I'm absolutely going to grab those books. I've never read those. So I'm looking forward to it. And I mentioned to you at the beginning of the podcast. I am huge into the practice of mindfulness. I meditate for 20 minutes every morning. And it's just a big part of my life. And honestly, something that I just know I need. And so I think I'll start with that one. I'd love to read it. So. Oh, good. Well, Kristen, thank you so much for being here today. I have been thoroughly enjoyed our entire conversation. I seriously cannot believe it's been almost an hour and 15 minutes. We I know we chatted and it was it was amazing. It filled with some really great takeaways. Some awesome things that you are doing at the Heyman company and just and that you as a human have experienced. And so thank you so much for being here and thank you for sharing. - Well, again, thank you for having me. - Very much appreciate it.