EP 148: Making Movement Meaningful with Kelly and Juliet Starrett

Listen up minimal footwear lovers. It's that time of year again. The barefoot shoe Expo is happening May 16th and 17th of the Schomburg Convention Center in the Chicago area. This is my third year presenting a workshop there, but who am I fooling? Everyone goes there for the shoes, I know. If you hate ordering shoes online and having to return so many because things just don't fit, this event is a game changer. You can actually try on and compare a huge range of options in person from super minimal styles to more cushion designs in widths from average to extra wide. There are shoes for everything. Athletic every day, dressy, even kids options and specialty footwear like cycling shoes and sports cleats. That are minimal. There's also a full lineup of free workshops running throughout the event. You'll get to hear from podiatrist, biomechanist like me and other health professionals about foot health and movement mechanics. I'm going to be there signing books and teaching your free workshop myself. So please come by and say hi. If you're planning to go, I've got a little bonus for you. Use the code "nutricious movement" one word at checkout to get a multi-day ticket for the price of a single day ticket because there are a lot of shoes. And there's also lots of very happy excited people to connect with. And this isn't actually my favorite thing about the event. It's a massive dose of vitamin community. So, you know how you're like walking around and how excited you get when you happen to see someone else in minimal shoes? Imagine an entire room full of your people. An entire weekend full of just recognizing that we're all in this minimal shoe thing together. It's a very exciting event. Grab your tickets at barefootshoexpo.com and if you're coming both days use code "nutricious movement" to save on one of those days. I'm so looking forward to the barefoot shoe expo and I hope to see you there. Let's get to the show. This is the "Movie Your DNA Podcast" a show where movement science meets your everyday life. I'm Katie Bowman, Biomechanist, author and movement teacher. All bodies are welcome here. Let's get moving. Friends, as you probably know I have a new book out called "We Think Your Position." It's available anywhere. You get well thought out movement books. To support new books I do what all authors do, which is lots of interviews for the media, which includes going on to a lot of other podcasts. Kelly and Juliette Starrett of the Ready State, they also just released a book about movement called "Built to Move." They too have been appearing on so many podcasts other than their own. So when we realized that we had each other's podcast on our like to do media list we decided that instead of two interviews, one on each podcast that had the same old questions about like, "So, where are you inspired to write this book and what can people expect in this book?" We thought we would get together for a deeper conversation which is so refreshing. Not only between movement teachers but between people who've dedicated themselves to working publicly in the space of getting people moving better. So what you're about to hear is the three of us talking about why we think that the move more message isn't working the way we had hoped and how we're trying to shift the conversation to something that we hope works better. In short, it's about making movement meaningful. So before we roll the tape, which is not even a thing, I have no idea where this audio lives, probably in a cloud. Here's a little bit about my co-guests. Dr. Kelly Starritt, he's a DPT. That's a doctorate in physical therapy. He's a co-author of the New York Times bestsellers becoming a supple leopard ready to run and the Wall Street Journal bestseller desk bound. He is also the co-founder of the Ready State and the co-founder of San Francisco Crossfit. He consults with athletes and coaches from the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB, the US Olympic team, elite Army, Navy Air Force Marines and Coast Guard forces and he consults with corporations on employee health and well-being. Juliette Starritt is a doctor of jurisprudence or a JD if you're ever seen those initials. She is an entrepreneur attorney, author and podcaster. She is a co-founder and CEO of the Ready State, the former co-founder and CEO of San Francisco Crossfit. She is a co-author of the Wall Street Journal bestseller desk bound and was a professional white water peddler winning three world championships and five national titles. So let's roll the tape. All three of us have just launched books from different angles. I feel like aimed at the same thing. Totally. I've said many times that I really appreciate your brain and I think you've done it again with your book and I very, very pleased that it's out in the world. Do you feel like every chance you do? I know you've written hyper specialization and certain topics like we did. We kind of go down a rabbit hole. Deep niche. This book is special because it's so universal and so timely and topical. It's like we're all into the zeitgeist of what's happening. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's not working. And the things we've been saying haven't gotten out there. But as you have progressed in your writing thinking, do you feel like this book is unique or it benefited from 10 prequels or 10 other efforts? Because really I can tell them like, oh, here's a writer who's done a lot of writing and has thought more deeply in refined your own thinking. We are in a time. It seems like where simple steps give me the the pare down version, like the most simple thing that I can do in a very short format. This book goes essays, for example. I like didn't even want someone to feel like they had to read the whole book. We're sort of in a short form, Instagram sound by situation. So I thought, well, I'll try it this way. We'll see if I throw this spaghetti at the wall and it sticks like this. So yeah, it's a reflection of the times. It's a reflection of writing for a long time. And then it is also just knowing my own material better. Just seeing my material land with more people and not land with other people and figure out how what is the key? I think of every single person is having a key that's unique to them and you can't say it too many times, but you can't say it the same way again and again and again. You got to change a word or two, you got to change a metaphor, you got to raise your voice, you have to whisper because everything is different. Yeah, I really, you know, I relate to that a lot. In fact, you know, sometimes Kelly gets a little frustrated because he often feels like he's been saying the same thing over and over again a thousand times or even, you know, sometimes we'll suggest a video and he's like, I've made that video, I've made that video 10 times and like well, and maybe you need to make it 12 different ways. And, you know, and maybe whispering is the key for you going forward is whisper voice. We've never tried that one. But I mean, I really appreciate what you're saying is, you know, is that you might need to say it differently to different people so they can hear it. And then also you never know who is landing on your page or your content for the first time for whatever reason have never heard it before. So I do think there's something to say for, you know, continuing to say the same thing over and over and over and over again. And let me just say that I also, it's important, I feel like we're in a cabal with some writers things, you Jill Miller, right, where it's important that we all have very unique voices. Because, you know, like you say, people hear this very differently and I don't know if you noticed that, but I'm a 240 pound white guy without hair and tattoos, I'm just not going to reach all the people. Yeah. So, you know, one of the things I was thinking about as I was reading your book is that again, speaking of this cabal concept, it seems like there's a bunch of us in this space who have, or at least I can speak for Kelly and I, we've evolved, we're I turned 50 this year, Kelly is turning 50 in four months. You know, we've been able to take some time to reflect on what we've done, what we haven't done and what's been working. And I think we, one of the reasons we wrote this book is that we sort of looked upon our industry of health, wellness, fitness, people. The industrial complex. The industrial complex actually with like a measure of criticism because, you know, as you know, and have talked about on many podcasts and you're in your book, like things aren't going well from a health standpoint in our country, right? Like we're spending billions of dollars, you know, everybody's getting more sick, more fat, has more pain, you know, we're just really struggling from an overall health standpoint. And so I'm wondering if you sort of landed in that same place and are trying to sort of self reflect the way we are and say, okay, how can we keep trying to like cast a wider net and bring more people into this conversation of what it means to be healthy and make it more accessible? Was that kind of a driving force like it was for us? A little bit. I mean, I'm 47, so I'm, you know, around the same age. And I think that when I, you know, I come out of graduate school and I have all of this information and understanding and it's such a simple tool, it's so easy and inexpensive to pick it up that I, my earlier ways of speaking about it really come from that place, that place of that stage of life as well. Like that stage of being in your 20s gives you a particular perspective of how easy it is to start moving or do a lot of sports and then right and then the work responsibilities creep up and then the children creep up and then you just get a sense of oh there's more, there are more obstacles here than I could have fully appreciated. And so that's part of the feedback that you get where people are like there's no way I can do this because this is my life. And to a certain extent some of it is the narrative that we have that there's no time. It's like how much time are you on YouTube? Right. You know like there's a lot of time but I also could recognize that I was missing the key to this audience that was myself ultimately as I moved through the stages of life. And while I can also appreciate the stages of life we are also in a stage of life as a country, as a culture around the globe where there is these bigger trends that simply didn't exist before. We are operating and I think it's not said enough it's not fully appreciated. We are operating in a completely novel environment, completely novel. If we just add the digital tech aspect, nobody knows how parent in this, nobody knows how to age in this, no one knows how to get their needs met because this environment seems to have come with these unintended consequences of affecting sleep and movement and nutrition and community and relationships. And when you look at it in that way it's like there's no, there's no blueprint here. So I try to give a little bit of grace to be like we're just going I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. But I have an idea and I'm willing to put it out there and these are all like I feel like these books that everyone is writing and these programs that people are creating, they're labors of love. You know they're not career decisions as much as they are like I really feel that I would love my fellow humans to have this as a tool and I love that space. But yeah, I mean I'm definitely coming from it in somewhat of the same way. We're I think all three of us in the larger community of us who you know in the crass working towards these things or trying to solve these or improve the ball are recognizing as you say a gigantic mismatch between humans and our two and a half million years of being on this planet. And I'm not talking about like painting for the old days. What I mean was mess stupid. I can't even say fermented wasp mess soup. I don't need to eat all of those gross things. But what do you like your teeth? I do also like my teeth. Do you want to have discovered recently that one of my fears is in the zombie apocalypse. I'm going to have like a toothache and that's what takes me out. That's like my thing. You have dreams either falling out like is that no that doesn't happen just that it's a like a waking I'm like yeah you know because I have all these broken teeth that I'm dealing with all time. I'm like this is what takes me out not the lion not the not the crowd with pitch for it's yes this tooth infections the absence. There is this gigantic human mismatch speed mismatch. You have just come back from taking your family and leaving abroad which is so cool. I think always always feel like a little bit of an outsider grew up in Europe didn't come back to the United States until it was 15 I dropped right into a like a big high school in East Coast and it was culture shock. I mean big time I'm like what do you mean you don't ride your bike and like what is this you can actually have a pizza delivered to your house. I mean all those things just blew my mind right. I know some of the people are the kids are going to listen to something like what. He's so old. He's so old. So the question I have for you is what stood out most as you moved back from Central America with your family and in the shock the speed you mentioned a little bit but what in terms of wow I can really see the differences between what we might be doing better and what we're not doing as well as we could. You know like I'm really about the distinction between movement and exercise that's been my thought process for a long time really teasing not more for scientific purposes and public health purposes because I think there's a reason physical activity and exercise and movement have different definitions. But there's another element to movement that often gets overlooked and I've tried to course correct it in my own writing in the last four or five years and my own offerings is while we have this huge problem with said in tourism simultaneously there are many people who aren't sedentary in our culture they are the laborers. So it's when you're when we're writing these books you know oftentimes really geared towards people who sit a lot but there is still a large number of people who don't. So labor coming being it's been in time in Central America is just I really recognized how much labor we've gotten rid of my eyesight. It's still happening but it's not you're not really spending not everyone is spending a lot of time seeing the labor go down and the reason I mean back when I wrote with your DNA it was like a couple sentences you know almost like a footnote to say you know in these discussions about like move more for your health don't move not great for your health is this other group who are laboring who are also not healthy and if you put an activity tracker and a pedometer on them they would be active but their issue which you probably already understand is just it's repetitive motions their movement diet is also not broad. What do you mean when you say movement diet explain that for everyone. Movement diet is is I'm trying to really help people to capitalize I'm capitalizing on this framework that we understand of nutrition that it's like hey calories great make sure you get enough calories and it's like awesome okay well you know and if you eat enough calories everything will be great and it's like well well there's these macronutrients here all right we're going to dial it in a little bit more and then you get that dialed and you're like oh no I'm still having this issue it's like well there's a thing called micronutrients so you got a dial all of that into and what nutrients are is just with something as identified as a nutrient in hindsight when you have the absence of the thing the compound there's predictable symptoms that arise that's what's curvy yeah right it's curvy that's the that's like the the kindergarten model like gut nailed it nutrition done so so yes so these these micronutrients we sort of have a just eat some movement just at the we're like at the calorie phase or so like just move and and many people are in a movement drought and can absolutely benefit from that and we also need expanded messaging when we're talking about who identifies with our work and who doesn't is the person who's like I'm on my feet 10 hours a day yeah when you say I need to move more that doesn't make sense to me I've got this thing in my hip it's not because I'm not moving enough you're like right okay macronutrients what are these made like what's your walking what's your floor sitting ability what's your ability to hang or move from your arms I mean like some general what how can you carry something heavy and then micronutrients is really in the realm of corrective exercise physiotherapy it's like okay you're hanging but you know what your elbows 15 degrees in this position and that's going to keep this part of your body sedentary you are active with sedentary tissues and sedentary cells within an otherwise active body so this is all to answer your question 17 minutes ago which is what I learned in Costa Rica and in Nicaragua is labor is much more intact in these places and it's not to celebrate labor done without choice or in more oppressive situations but it's to recognize that when we talk about where the movement has gone we really no longer labor for things and and so like that's that's what I'm really interested in my 17th book will be looking labor and and also like with grow wild I book I wrote for families it's like we really need to be introducing our children to labor movement and that could be as simple as having a garden walk active transportation walking or moving for the things that you need versus only where movement currently sits for many people on the are you familiar with the sloth like the sloth time economy model which is all humans spend their time into five life domains SLOTH sleeping leisure occupation transportation and home those are the domains transportation most of us do said we pick sedentary forms of transportation so it's this idea of you could get back a little bit more movement in that domain and so just even walking to the store not necessarily for your health but just to move for the things that you need and so the nice thing was my family got to see that contrast of people who go out in labor very hard all day long certainly comes with its own issues but also that there was still joy right that there could still be lots of joy and and gratitude about physical capability and things like that. - So I just want to go back to something you mentioned before. which I think is based on a diagram I have seen of years and I don't remember if it was in move your DNA or one of your other works, but this differentiation between physical activity, movement and exercise. And so if you could tell our listeners a little bit about that because I mean, I think Kelly and I often, you know, I think we've really come to believe that like exercise is sort of an extra curricular and that the movement piece ultimately is more important. And I think we have a lot of data. Not just walking, not just walking, but yeah, overall movement. And you know, obviously we can all agree that the data is bearing out to be true that, you know, people are spending billions of dollars going to Peloton and that doesn't seem to be moving the needle at all. Right. But yeah, could you just, I love. Whatever we are, the best nation in the world of Peloton. That's true. We're really good at Peloton. So yeah, tell us about those, you know, sort of that framework that you've developed because I think it's really informative and instructive. Well, okay. So simple diagrams who love simple diagrams, just a big giant circle and the word movement is written on top of it. Like that's the biggest category because it encompasses any change in position of your body or change in the shape of your tissues. Right. Because pressure is going to also be in that category, but not everyone. People are sort of missing the vitamin pressure. So, so giant category, everything fits inside this category. But inside of this circle is a second circle, which is physical activity, physical activity. And these are just clinical definitions, physical activity is movements that use your musculoskeletal system to an extent that they utilize calories. So we definitely have a calorie centric scientific perspective on movement. And that's, that's sort of locking us to where I think we're not actually able to, I think that that right there is a big part of why why movement people will have, you know, 400,000 followers, but not 7 million. Right. Like it's just like it's so it's so linked to calorie expenditure. So that's physical activity. And that could be again, a lot of things that go in the movement category, but it wouldn't like be pressure related movement. So you rolling out your body or or getting on the floor and learning how to tenderize doing pressure types therapy that wouldn't necessarily fit inside the physical activity category. And then exercise is a smaller circle still that sits inside physical activity. So it's like three rings movement, smaller circle physical physical activity, smaller circle exercise and exercise is move its movements that meet the same conditions of physical activity, but are done so that they have to use a musculoskeletal system in a way that utilizes some k-kells. But they're done with free determined, you've got predetermined specs on them. You've picked the mode, you've picked the duration, you've picked how far, how many, how long, and you're doing it for the intention of health. So it's very isolated. So to show you just a comparison, if you get on your bicycle and you're like, I'm going to go ride for one hour today and I'm doing this for my well-being, that will fit into exercise. You pick the mode. It's sort of scripted. If you take that exact same bike ride to get to work, same equipment, same you body, same rate, same listings, but distance, but use it for transportation, that's what moves it out of exercise into the physical activity category. So the movements aren't really different. The benefits to you physically are different, but it's about your ability to see where movement can fit inside your life, outside of purposefully done exercise, which goes into that sloth model, that's in the leisure category. So exercise is a leisure-based activity by definition. We're trying to expand, all of us here are trying to expand it, but that's where it sits right now as far as, you know, language goes in common. I would say common usage in the upper echelons of medicine and public health is still on that exercise model. You think that's why when we work with industrial athletes, people use their bodies. They're like, are you telling me, I really need to go lift weights? You know, they kind of push back and like to get healthier, I need to go do formal exercise. I mean, I think that that's some of the sort of the white, when we view exercises, leisure activity, then we suddenly have a filter of looking at the gym and really gym culture and physical culture as, wow, that's a hobby. That's right. I mean, I think that's what I think, you know, Juliet and I talk about is, hey, I want you to view your Peloton and Yoga class as a sport. And that means it makes it leisure activity. I think that's cool. But comma, we're missing a lot, potentially. And we won't capture everyone with that. Well, and I like when I was talking with my neighbor in Costa Rica, who labored extensively and was trying to talk about movement for your health, it was like, are you kidding me? Like, come listen to what she's saying right now. That movement is like, you know, and doing exercise for your health. Like, you can just again, that cultural perspective. It's like, yes, of course, I can completely understand because many people move a lot and aren't feeling well or robust. But yes, it's just sort of a, it's a solution. You know, and it's not a, it's not a dumb solution. It's a smart solution. It's just that when we're trying to figure out how something works, and I'm trying to figure out how set-interism works. It's been at the first 20 years figuring out how movement works. And then I switched to how does set-interism work? Because I think that that's the next question to permeate a little bit more. I feel like, yeah, the perception of movement, the fact that it, for many people, is sort of a leisure time. I mean, you need an outfit for it. You need a costume for it. You know what I mean? We literally call it our exercise. We love that. Let's put on our exercise costume. There's active, there's active, I mean, if there are active clothes, what are all the other clothes? Like, you know what I mean? So it's just, it's just the perception of couch clothes. Exactly. Somehow we've created a life Katie where we can wear those exercise costumes 24 hours a day. I'm right there with you. I'm killing it. You know, just a couple comments I was also going to say, it's, I think this whole movement piece is not only, or the exercise piece is not only cultural, but it's also generational. You know, if I look at my grandma, Georgia, who literally never exercised a moment in her life and lived to be 90, and probably actually would have lived to be 100 if she wasn't a smoker. But, you know, I look at that generation and I think we, I think these days, we all assume this like thing where you exercise and put on your costume and go do a thing has been around forever, but it really hasn't been. I mean, you know, that that that costumed, yeah, people, leisure takes place in a one hour chunk. That's one nice people played sports, of course. And there's this, of course, you know, hundreds of years of sporting tradition, but, but the notion that, you know, if you're not playing a sport and that you would kind of go do these like fake movements in, in controlled environments, like that's, I feel like that really blew up in the 80s. It's not that long ago. And the other thing I was going to say that when you were talking about sort of having this like broad movement, diet made me think of, you know, one of my personal heroes, Kate Chanahan and her book Deep Nutrition. And, you know, she says that her one of the pillars of nutrition in every culture for a millennial is eating a broad array of millennium has been eating a broad array of fruits and vegetables. Mm-hmm. And it seems to me that, you know, it's the same thing with movement. Yeah, I think they want to think about it as like, I shouldn't just eat carrots, right, which is what most Americans do. Most Americans eat four vegetables, right? We shouldn't just eat four vegetables. I should eat a broad array and it should ideally be seasonal. And, you know, that's how I get all the benefits of it. And I think, you know, you're sort of peeing the picture that that's how we should think about our movement life in that same way. I love that. Well, we're confused about what a new train is. Like, I think we're just like a new train is, it's something that's good for me. As much as I want the end, right? And like, we just have this way of categorizing things, but like, you cannot live on kale. You will be very sick. You will become malnourished if you live on a, do you say sick or sad because I think sad being first, right? Well, we don't really jacked, um, jaw muscles though. Really jacked jaw muscles from all that chewing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's just all all nutrients work with all other nutrients, right? There is a nutritious diet. There is not. And that's why I went people like, just what one exercise, what's the best exercise? You're like, I mean, I just, I can see from your face right away. Like, that and the other question is like, what about rebounding? Like, those are the two most questions that I get. And I think if people are trying to nail down, they're trying to find the simplicity of it. So my solution is, let me offer a movement diet. Still really simple concept. And you can get the sense of how you, how you sort that out. You know, we can take more steps. But what's your movement diet? Is it one food, one mode of exercise? Are you using one range emotion only? And in your time and your office counts towards your movement diet, it's not your exercise diet is how is your body physically positioned and changing that position throughout your day, throughout your life. And that's what you have control over. I love it. We, I have been using this lane, the, the verbiage of movement lexicon, trying to expand your vocabulary. I'm like, you're writing three word poems and your capable of Shakespeare. And I think it's a little bit of why we've seen some thinkers in the space. really, I think of someone like Ido Pertal and his idea of movement and application and exploration of self and why some of those thinkers in that category, not pulling out Ido on any other reason, but he's done been a good example of saying, hey, the things that we're passing off as making me a more skilled mover and being able to write this poetry in the classical gym setting isn't really purporting to do what we think it's prepared to do. We're still seeing the same sets of hip disease, lump heart disease, poor anxious, but we're seeing big jack people who are tan and look good on Instagram. There's nothing wrong with that, comma, it may not be the best long term play. And also, we have to keep remembering that the people coming, me as myself included, the people writing the guidelines, thinking through the solutions, preparing it, live in a gym, live lives where they're in their exercise costumes. And so it's just really challenging to think outside your own culture when you're coming up with a solution because it's like, you're getting paid to do that. So your movement is fitting inside your, the all of sloth. It's in your occupation. What about everyone else for whom it's not? And that's what you've written a book for, right? You're trying to say you do not have to do this professionally or even, even abundantly, just like these tiny steps that we can start taking that fit into, I mean, that really fit into all of these domains, which is, you know, what I appreciate about the book. I mean, I just feel like we have tried to take this view. Because I think something you touched on is that it has felt for a long time like those of us who are in this industry, occupationally, or are, you know, at least like weekend warriors where we want to like talk about fitness on the weekend. You know, we sort of have like taken over and have like a, you know, like we're kings and queens of health, but we want to expand it so that other people can own health as well, but not in the way that we do, you know, not in this totally all-encompassing way where we think, talk, breathe, you know, health wellness fitness 24 hours a day, right? The goal is to try to open up the door so that people feel like they can have a seat at the, I'm healthy table without having to put so much of their attention and focus on it. And take all 100% of their leisure time and try to like invent a sport that they need to go do for their health. I think that's where we see this, this real dissonance. We were just listening to Ezra Klein on their drive back up from the South and they were, he was talking about interviewing a person who was really looking at the public health crisis and psychological crisis in teens, in particularly teen girls. And you know, one of the things that they, the research is pulled out is they really think there is this inflect, this sort of inflection point at the advent of social media where suddenly we're not engaging and teens aren't engaging with other people and all the other unintended, unintended consequences, as you said, where suddenly we're seeing the erosion of sleep. What I think of what that brings up for me is sometimes the missing components, Julia has started saying recently, there's two things that people do together, they eat together and they move together. Right? And you could expand that way. We work together potentially if that's our movement piece. But you know, we sometimes, as we've come from high performance, really high performance environments, we forget that there are these huge psychowemotional, cultural components to sitting down together and eating together, moving together and we're not honoring that sufficiently. Did you feel that a little bit differently when you were out of the United States? Well, that's actually a big part of the work that I try to do even here in the United States was in it was in the kids book or that you know, the kid to preteen book is we've got to start like re layering movement, food and community together and celebration. Like I think that celebration has always been a conduit for those things, even if it was just mundane celebration, like, oh look, the tree has given the thing that we all need and if we don't get it, we'll die. Party, but the party is also you picking up everything and then pounding it and you get to hang out. So I feel like this is like the key place for layering movement and yes, abroad, there is just a lot more social labor together. The fish have come in, we are all getting together and making the big giant pot of something, it's labor, but we're having a party while we do it. This is also our social time. It's not that different than like let's get coffee and take a walk, right? It's trying to stack multiple needs at the same time and you would just see that over and over again and like, oh, I need someone to come with me to do this project, but it'll also be what we do all day and there's just lots of chatting and enjoyment. And so yeah, it's much more, what do I want to say? I feel like it has to be more forced here. You have to be creative, you have to plan it, you have to think about it. There, it's the intact natural way. We do everything in series. Like I say everything is fast really in North America. Everything is fast, but at the same time we're meeting fewer needs and the needs that we're not meeting were the actual needs. We're meeting a lot of our wants, not meeting a lot of our needs because we're trying to do them in series. This is my time for my movement. This is my time for my family. This is my time for my partner. This is my time for my friends. Oh, and this is the, oh, we got to have the party for the thing. It's like all separate. So it is, I'm just like, no wonder everyone feels so time crunch, right? When you say it like that, you're like, wow, all these things have to happen is separate events and you're like, and somewhere I have to like work a whole day in there. Yeah, and we're talking about multitasking and I'm like, we don't need multitasking. We need stacking, which is you rethink the task. Pick one that meets more needs. We need to increase the nutrient density of our periods of time. We do not have nutrient dense periods of time. A single thing is happening in a period of time. So when you're, you know, the things that you're talking about is like, you're going to walk to the store and you're going to carry your bag home so that you don't have to go to a separate place for movement and carry like nothing to know where, carry something to know, you know, it's just because because we figured it out that we need it. We have figured out that we need it. What we haven't figured out is how to get it more often. Well, and I think that's one of the reasons why we're obsessed with and I mean, it's not very sexy and I think you, you know, reference why we have like all of us have not that many followers on Instagram and, you know, the people with abs do. But, you know, we're obsessed and talk constantly about walking. But to me, that's like the, again, the greatest activity to stack. You can drink your coffee, you get some sunlight, you can practice breathing through your nose, you can do it with friends so you connect with community. You could actually carry a thing, right? You can drop your kids off of school. Drop off your kids off school. You could write, there's like, there's so many ways to make just the simple act of walking, the sort of stacked behavior you're talking about where you can check so many of our knee, our human needs boxes, like all in a little thing and it can be 20 minutes, right? And, you know, we, I developed a walking school bus at our kids elementary school when they were there and we would, you know, walk to school every day. And it turned out that the walking was, I mean, it was cool and that was great. We got some steps in and whatever. It turns out that was the least awesome thing about the walking school bus, right? We had these days where we got this really intensive, like 20 minutes of quality time with our kids or we could talk and connect. The transition handoff to school was no longer. The transition to school, we, we like made friends with new parents and got to know them and learn about their lives. Like, there were just all these side benefits of it. And something we really miss actually, we talk about now that our kids are older and we don't have the walking school bus. It was just this really like tight connected part of our day that we miss a lot because it was, it had so much, it was so rich and it was for 20 minutes literally, but so rich. Yeah. Time doesn't say anything. It's all about the density of what's happening. I love one of our friends is a coach at embolder who she owns CrossFit Roots, Nicole Christensen. And when it's, you know, she's a professional strength in the Michigan coach and she works with elite athletes, credible cyclists. She's really an amazing woman thinker. When she and her husband go ride their mountain bikes together, people like, "Do you get a good workout?" She's like, "We don't, we don't nature for time." No. And I'm just hearing the language that you're using about making sure, you know, we're nature for time. I thought it was a really nice idea. We really have tried to say, well, everything has to fit into this leisure exercise bucket. Otherwise, it's not worth doing. Right. One of the things that we took a swing at in this book was to try to create some vital signs where we could at least come up with some benchmarks because sort of what one of the things that we in our sort of fitness, fit care community, you know, everyone is like, "I'm killing it. I know I'm killing it." And I'm like, "Okay, great. Let's do some third party testing validation because that's what we've done with public health measures." That's our third party validation of our community, of our health, of our nation, right, of our state health. We're seeing it and it all doesn't seem to be going very well. But when we ask people to go play and explore new sports, they often find they have these horrific blind spots. Well, I'm really strong. I'm not very fit. Man, standing on one leg and yoga was really hard, you know, and what we're always saying is, "Hey, let's go ahead and try to help you reimagine a movement life, a fitness life, that you can go drop into any novel task. I don't know, for 15 years, we've said, the best athlete is the person who can pick up the new skill, the fastest. That means they can transfer skills more effectively. They have access to movement solutions because of what their practices look like allows them to create new novel movement solutions to a new task, right? That's the highlight of it. And by creating these vital signs, we're like, look, we don't really, we've become totally agnostic about how you want to move. But we're like, show us the proof of your work. And what we're seeing is that I'm like, your keto diet is super cool until we cut you in half and look at your blood panel and we were horrified to find out that you really weren't doing great. You know, I think we need those third party validations. We've thought about in vital signs, how are you helping people to kind of come up with minimums? Because I think that's where we are as a culture. Hey, what's the minimum vitamin C? So I don't get scurvy. What's the minimum hip flexion exposure so that I can maintain my range of motion? - Right. Really let people set those themselves, but they have to set them and then hold them constant on the outside of them. Because one of the things that I have, I guess, realized in this journey is, you know, for like an athlete, you're talking about the athletes, people who really value physical fitness and physical performance and they take a test and like, wow, my performance is on point here, but not on these other arcs. And that's disturbing because they value physical fitness. What I have figured out through lots of conversation is many people just don't value performance or physical fitness in the way they think about it. It's not in their value system. And we can't, and I have just like, oh, I have been assuming that everyone has the same value system as me. But, so I'll just tell you the side, 'cause this is what I do. And then come back to the original question. I just did a big launch for my book, but I didn't wanna go into the same, you know, you do the same, you're talking to the same groups of people, people who are already sort of interested in fitness or not there yet, they're watching you, they're trying to get that step. And I'm like, where are the people who are not? That's who I need to be talking to. And I was like, same, we're trying to find those people too. So for me, I am in just like spoiler alert, I'm a nerd and I'm a book nerd. I don't only write books, I read books, like books are really my portal to the world, not just movement books, but just all books. And I was like, oh, right. And my personal story is I came from a non-moving, very sedentary background. And was able to transition into someone who was a mover. And that's kind of who I tend to write for because I know that journey really well, but I was like, I'm gonna hold an event for book people who have been sort of who feel that there are movers and there are brainiacs and there's no overlap. The people who would never pick up a book about movement, do a movement class, that's for people. And not to say that everyone thinks that movement people don't think, but there is definitely a trope, right? That there are like bookish people and there are jocks, and those are your options. And, right, I mean, I don't think that's true, but that idea permeates and people tend to self-sort themselves in that way. I was never picked for a sports team. I was always picked last. I have no coordination. I was discouraged from movement at such a young age because athletics was my only portal offered at that time of development that I just figured athletics equals movement, movement's not for me, book's are for me. So we had over 1,000 people show up to be like, I'm a book person and I felt like my body's neglected and now readings hurting my body. I'm like, right, you're like any other athlete. Reading is your sport, but you are not cross-training. And reading's a primarily upper body sport. You grip, I mean, people are like, I can't read big books anymore 'cause my wrists can't hold them. Like, right, they're saying the same thing that people are saying in a gym about their preferred sports. I can't do what I love and how I identify it. That's right, whatever that is. My value system is, and I can't do it because there's a structural problem. And I can't do it because they don't have muscular endurance. And I was like, right, because we all need a movement diet. Your sport is reading, this is your program readers who wanna keep on reading and like, boom, give it to me because now I see how movement relates. It's so great. And so the way for me, those benchmarks are more like, what is it that you value most in life? How are you doing on that? Where do you feel like your physicality is getting in the way of it? That's how you can tell if you're doing it or not. This is how you figure out where to play with movement meals, movement supplements, however you wanna think about it. This is yours. - Right, I mean, we are, the big thing we've been saying is that we're trying to help people be able to do what they wanna do physically with their body. Whatever that is. - We've even sort of expanded our definition of mobility to say. - Mobility to include that, but. - What does it you need to do or wanna do or maybe think you might do? - You might do. So, I have to tell you a quick story here that I thought of as you were talking about this, I think what you're really talking about is like people's identity, right? Like, they become, they create a weak Kelly and I always have this move identity as like athletic movers and you know, you at least at one point have this identity as a bookish person. And then there's many others, but the one story I'll tell you is we have a dear friend Chris who was working for years in sort of more like creative pursuits and Kelly was talking to him about something related to mobilizing or taking care of your body or being physical. And he said in complete honesty, like, well, are these things for creatives too? Or what you're talking about for creatives. And so we've always thought that was so interesting, right? Because he felt like, oh, okay, well, you're talking about something that relates to moving the body and he actually wasn't sure right away whether that would be appropriate for creatives who don't have an interest in, or at least sort of hobby in moving their bodies. I thought that was so interesting. So what I want to know is how did you go from being a non-mover into being a mover? Like, what was that transition? And the reason that I'll ask that is that, you know, I have noticed in my own friends in life that it seems like there's a trend. Like if people have learned to move as kids or whatever reason, or have fallen in love with a sport or a physical activity, it tends to be easier for them to continue to do that in their life versus my friends who didn't grow up with a movement tradition or a sport or whatever. And then, you know, they get to 40 and realize, oh, crap, I need to move. Like, I've realized like, now, okay, now. And it's much harder for them to sort of incorporate that into their life. So I think your story is so interesting to be able to share with people that like you can start later and develop a love of movement. Like, what changed for you? Where did you make that sort of mental emotional transition? Saying, okay, I'm not just a, I can still be a bookish person in a mover or I can still be a creative in a mover. - I mean, I think I'm still making that transition, frankly, right? Like, it's just a very long journey. We come with what our passions are. And my passions are just consuming, you know, consuming information to a hyper detail and integrating it. Probably what was my exit out early on is I just happened like, McCamma Bio-Mechanist, like I just really love, like physics and math, sitting down and doing it, but just I just started to feel like, my, I think my body didn't feel good and I had one parent who was very sedentary and one parent who wasn't, but the parent who wasn't, I didn't live with that, my, you know, my dad all of the time. So I had like these little touchstones of movement, but I was just more supported in my not moving endeavors. And then I think it was going through a hard time as a teenager. I started walking, I started walking out of necessity, right? Because you didn't get a car when you're a teenager and like you were angsty. And so I was like, fine, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go where I wanna go and you're not gonna get me, I'm gonna walk, you know, I'll show you and then, (laughing) and then you walk and you blow off steam and you're just like, and I'm a hyper observer. So again, that's like maybe a personal trait and I was like, I felt good. And then I just started making that choice. Like it was sort of an accident at first and then I started making that choice and then I would come home from school and wanna go on another walk. I'd wanna go walk for two or three hours. Like walking for me, even now I'm a long distance walker, like 20 to 30 miles with regularity as just a, it's just like a spiritual practice. It's a detoxing practice. It's a self-organizing practice for me. So I started walking and then I joined a gym. So I actually came through the gym piece and I was like, what is this? Like, what? (laughing) - Why do these people have headphones and not talk to each other? - It's weird, look at these costumes. - Well, this was before. I mean, this was before there was even TVs and I, what I used to watch when I was on stairmaster for torquettes, 'cause like stairmaster, yeah. - Yeah, me too. - Was I looked down on the group exercise group. So that was the entertainment. Was you watched everyone who was in the group exercise room. This was in the early 90s. So there was a lot of people in there doing a lot of things on a step. And I just, I saw it and I just knew, I'm like, I wanna do that. I wanna lead that. Like I wanna teach that, 'cause I like to be entertaining. I thought I could make people enjoy doing this while they're doing it and I just set myself up. on that path still being very bookish in the last essay in "Retank Your Position" is all about, "I hated running the mile. I hated it in school. Like, because I was slow and you didn't get a lot of pure support back then, peers are maybe more kinder now. But then one girl ran with me one time. And she was a cross country star. I was in seventh grade. She was like in sixth grade. She ran with me the entire mile and I was distracted from hating it. And then I was like, I didn't even really, I didn't even, so much of my struggle was in my mind. I hate this, I hate this. Why are you making me do this? Same thing sort of like, that's in my kids' heads when I make them do anything, right? Like you pick the attitude you're gonna have to at first. And so once I realize, wow, if I have a different vibe, this doesn't feel so bad. And then I just got fast. And then I just. I'm sorry, but to interrupt you, but I mean, did you become a step aerobics instructor? Oh yeah. Oh, that is like, that's amazing. And I would still, if someone would want, like I would still teach a wicked class today. If you all want to come, I would just like lead. I want to come. Class some class. You know what's cool? Crossfit is step aerobics with weights. All the movements are there. You learn all the choreography. And then people put music on. And then for 20 minutes or whatever time domain there is, it's just heavier step aerobics. Yeah, I did so much step aerobics. I'm just like, you know, fist bumping you through the zoom right now. Well, I used to do like, I would put plyometrics in there because I also started studying movement in college. So then I was like, we don't need to just keep doing this. I started making sports step aerobics where, you know, for skiers, you know, like where you start protecting, like I just started to get. I love creating like little programs like that. Don't blow your knee on the slopes. Come to my sports step aerobics. And yeah, it was awesome. I quote you a lot. And one of my, I don't know if you know, you may have run into this, but I call it Bowman's Orca is a phenomenon. I never heard of that. Not okay. So I have a ton. I've used, I've made 50 slides where I'm like, let me introduce you to a concept called Bowman's Orca. And people were like, where's this come from? Like, well, Katie Bowman, you need to understand. But I think it's a movie DNA. Yep. And it you explain sort of this notion of loading college in disuse, mechanical transduction is the fancy term for it, where we, if you want your cells to work at a cellular level, you have to load them mechanically. That's everyone. That's mechanical transduction. And if you don't load a tendon, it's not going to be a tendon. It can't do its tendon job at a cellular little genetic level. Can you just explain everyone in your own words? What that Bowman's Orca concept is because it's so great. And I really, it has helped so many people be like, oh, I understand. Well, the Orca comes from just Orcas in captivity have folded fin, folded fin syndrome. You know, it's certainly in the wild. They can get bonked and it'll bend over a little bit. But, but male Orcas in captivity, they have a very tall dorsal fin. That's the one on the back. And these a lot of structure to hold it up. We all have growth spurts. Like one of the reasons it's so important for movement for kid, for juveniles is that you're setting your adult shape. And like, there's not a lot of going back. Great. This is my shape. Well, great. Thanks a lot. Well, you're quite malleable. But like in your bone, you have peak bone density. But so for Orcas, it's again, nature has got that beautiful, those beautiful systems in play. The growth spirit of the dorsal fin during, we'll call it Orca Teenage Hood also comes with them swimming very strongly. You know, they're showing off. They're diving and jumping and racing and they're going very fast. And so the water creates a lot of supportive pressure on the fin as it's growing, right? Those relationships are thousands, hundreds of thousands of years old. The way in Orca swims, it's anatomy and its environment. Well, then you put that Orca in an environment as it's growing and it's swimming in a circle every single day, all day long. That's the only way it can swim. The fin is shaped like the environment. It is so much of our shape is mechanically transduced. We all have genetic genetics that we come with that create a lot of shape to our body. But we're like trees, trees branch based on the loads that they experience in the wind. They also experience nutrient availability. But the way that they branch, the amount that they branch, the shape that they end up having that's outside of like the way they're bark and their leaves always look because of their genes is because of their mechanical environment. And so the fins, is it a parable? I don't know. It's just an example. It's like we work in this same way. Like the shape that we have of our body of all of our tissues is about the loads that these tissues are experiencing. And the nice thing is we can still toggle them like right up until the day we die, we can toggle them. But during the youth, the juvenile period, they're much more plastic and pliable. But you've got to place the load on the body parts where you want them to adapt. There's systemic adaptations to movement on those local ones. And just learning that phenomenally. So if you're a human orca and I change your environment where you're not loading and you are spending more time doing something that you typically not do, we should expect to see a folded fin in our bodies. Is that like? Yeah. Like you're adapting to movement all of the time, not just to the exercise. You're adapting to your shape and your position and your movement habits 100% of the time. So if you spent a lot of time in a chair or in whatever other environment you can imagine, that's your anatomy. Like you're adapting to that. Your anatomy is getting good at doing that. And what makes it difficult to go do something else is you got your chair anatomy. Like you have to then you have to gradually put your loads back to get your folded fin out so that you can then deal with the physical forces of being outside of that chair. But so one of the things I think we jointly talk about but in different ways, but I love the way that you talk about thinking about all the types of movement we're doing almost as sports specialization. And I think as parents, you know, the term sports specialization is tossed around to us all the time because everybody knows like the worst thing you can do for your kids is having your kids. I'm a cookie specialist. You are a cookie specialist. But I mean, I think that everybody knows the worst thing you can do for your kids athletically is to have them specialize too young in sport. And it's having teenage kids. It's really hard to not do that. I will say. Even though we know better, but I think the same is true for all of our movement throughout the day. And I think most people don't think about the fact that if they spend the vast, you know, 15 hours of their day sitting, they're actually sitting specialists or her. That's their sport. Yeah. Yeah. That's your sport. Or, you know, if you're if all you do as in that little exercise bubble is peloton, then you're a peloton specialist. Cross train. That's a great use. Yeah. And so I don't know. Talk a little bit more about that. And then then I guess maybe, you know, how do we as a group continue to help people rethink that as a form of movement that they're practicing. We always say you're practicing, you know, you're getting good at sitting in your practicing and all the time. And you say specializing, but, you know, how do we continue to help people evolve their thinking around this, you know, having this diverse amount of movement and not specializing, you know, how do we get people to sort of think differently about it other than saying, Hey, you're specializing and sitting because that's what you do. Everyone, especially if you're not really movement oriented or identifying as someone who's a mover or sporty, I think the issue is people don't actually know that the their physical experience that they're having is influenced by a lot of other parts of their life or I mean, we say lifestyle, but like even to be more specific that it's influenced by your sleep, that it's influenced by your relationships, that it's influenced by your diet, that's influenced by movement. I know a lot of people out in a variety of communities. And that's the thing that I've learned. It's like, it's it's the same. I went to the dentist the other day. And I've always taken really good care of my teeth because dental hygiene was something that my that my family started off really young. And so it was just in my in my awareness zone. And the dentist said, most people don't brush their teeth. And I was like, what are you talking about? And they're like, right, I mean, if you grew up in a really if you grew up in a home that knew about it, talked about it, but that's not the case. And it's generational like we are you're saying before with movement. It's slowly becoming known. But like I would say that people have known teeth for quite a while. And the fact that there's still large groups of people who get almost the only go to the dentist and emergency, the dentist is like an ER. Right. Like that's their under easy is that. Yeah. That's where the other story I'll share is that we used to have our in house physical therapy clinic and obviously Kelley's of physical therapist. And I can't tell you how many weekend warrior type athletes we would have come in and say, oh my god, I blew my Achilles out this morning or I twirled. this or hurt this. And I was doing the exact same thing I do every single day, which is run for an hour. And I'm so shocked that I tore my Achilles because I was doing the same thing I did. And first of all, there would probably be a conversation about the running mechanics. But in almost every case, once an assessment was done, we'd learn that they were going for that one hour run every day, but then they were sitting for 15 hours a day. But no- - And not sleeping in running. - And not needing to do all these other things. But I think what we're all trying to do here, which I appreciate so much is try to help people make these connections between these behaviors. I think that's one of the things we're proud of with this particular book of ours is that you can read great books on breathing and great books on sleeping and great books on nutrition. But we have never read a book where it says, "Okay, these are how all these behaviors are connected and influence one another." And I think that was what we're trying to do and have so much aligned in what you're doing as well. - Yeah, I think something else I learned being in Central America. And I've been in other parts of Africa as well. There's often like this patterned exchange like, "How are you? I am fine. How's your mother? How's your kid?" Like it just goes back and forth. You're just walking by each other and it's still going on, but that's protocol. And we also have a protocol in this culture, which is how are you doing? Great, great. I'm not sure how often people actually sit down and write out their answer. I have sort of a madlib that I've created, you know, I don't know if we need to give a shout out to madlibs, but like fill in the blanks here. Like even because sometimes it's hard to muster the story. So it's like prompts. It's like, "If my body felt better, I would boom." This part, you know what I mean? Like let them fill in the words because that's another way of listening to your body. And it's really hard to get into movement if you're not listening. If you're not communicating, like this is a relationship. This is something else I put in the book. You are in a relationship with your body. You're in a relationship with people outward, and then you're in a relationship with your mind and that dialogue. And then you're in a relationship with your physical body. That's not so great of a relationship. Like in the same way if you were to look at like a marriage or any other partnership and be like, "How you doing?" You know, like you're regularly asking, you know how to watch, you know, like you could probably watch each other and know when something's bothering the other person just by the way their body languages or their face or their words. Like we're fluent in many things, but we are not fluent in our physicality. And so we need prompts. Like I want to write a book where the cover of the book is those questions. Where someone walking by would be like, "Well, I never thought to ask that." I would say like we need some objective markers here because the mental part of you is really good at keeping from yourself, how things are actually going because we. - Yes, psychology is hidden. - We're generalizing. Like as much as we talk about specialists like spoiler alert, we are generalists. And so we have to put our heads down and get the day done. We have to deal with what's going on in life and it's a lot. Like I even think again back to this novel environment that a lot of us are just sort of like, there's a lot of trauma going on, you know. And again, if you are particularly hearty or resistant or well-resourced, you can sort of push through it. But I think so many people are on their white nutkling it. The idea of asking how they're doing physically isn't even on the realm of questions right now. Well, and if I ask that question, the thin veneer on which I'm standing is going to crack, right? Well, plus I think human beings are so amazing in their both ability to adapt but also trick ourselves. - Just learn. - We're like, "Dreamy." - Third party. That's what the third party is. - Third party. - Yeah. - Third. - Right, right, right. That's just fun. - Right. And that's why we have these assessments in this book. We're like, take these tests. Let's see. - One of the things that I love about this conversation is maybe we're all car-roger disciples, you know, unconditional positive regard. And that we feel like if we can get people to expand their movement lexicon, increase their movement diet, then they'll actually feel better and be able to do the things they want to do. And one of the things I think I struggle with in physical therapy as a profession is that they are only orientated towards pain and disability. And I can understand that. That's all they see. And yet, the research is sometimes muddied on, or physical therapists will take offense to, or like, sitting causes pain. And what I'm always saying is like, "Hey, I'm not making that statement. I'm saying that if you do a certain thing or fail to do a lot of other things, you won't have access to the whole movement library. You won't be able to do." We have kind of settled on a conversation or a phrase that comes out of that sports performance side called session cost. Like, if you do a big effort, we can sort of measure that session cost the next day, resting heart rate, heart variability, central nervous system rouse, or whatever, right? I mean, like, run a marathon, jump on a red eye, and we'll measure a hamstring range of motion the next day. That's session cost. So we're always talking to people like, "How can we reduce session cost?" And there is a, I don't want to say cost, right? But there is aspects of what you're doing every day that will limit other things. As you're saying, sitting, I'm specialized in sitting, it's going to be really difficult to put my arms over my head or extend my hip effect. Right. Straight off. Straight off. Straight off. Straight off. Straight off. Sorry, word. So one of the things I've tried to do is shift this idea of, "Hey, it's not do this, rolls your thigh and get cancer of movement, you know, gonerie of your knees, you should do these things because you will feel that's my favorite go to." I know. I had that. I had that. I was terrible. I had like, knee gonerie is real everyone. So what, you know, people always ask me, like, "What's wrong with your shoulder?" I'm like, "It's probably rabies. I don't know you." So it's rabies. But the idea here is we think people are living smaller, feeling lives. They can feel better. They can have richer relationships. They can do the things they want to do and interact in their communities. If we can start to think differently about the problem, we've sold this as do these things otherwise you die or your knees will get arthritis. And I feel like that message clearly hasn't worked. And it's something I just wanted to sort of give a shout out to you about that you just always do such a good job pointing positive. Well, I mean, here, this is this is the philosophical question that I grapple with a lot. I have this, I have this book about wild foods, you know, not the, not the fermented wasp nest that you were talking about before, but other sort of wild foods from a wild food enthusiast rode in the 40s and he opens it with this like little introduction about camping. It's like, we don't need to let we don't need to build our own shelters. We don't need to sleep outside anymore. It's not a it's not a pressure of society any longer. But when you go out and like make your own house for the day or the week in some natural spot and you sleep outside, you're under the stars, like that feels good is the fact that society no longer needs us to do that. Like what does that actually say about sleeping outside, the spending time outside in nature and his argument then goes on to like, what about wild food? We don't eat wild food anymore. I can go to the grocery store and this is in the 40s. You know, I can go to the grocery store and make a meal. I don't have to know like no the plans. I don't have to spend any time out in the woods moving things around, but but it still makes me feel good to do it. It's it's still extremely nutritionally dense. I enjoy the process. I enjoy being with my friends when I do it and I'm getting all these other things besides just the foods that I'm eating today. So when I read that I was thinking about, well, we're actually not very far from that argument for movement any longer. Society has made the decision, you know, if there is a CEO society, which there isn't, like we've made the decision that move to to set up the structure to not require movement any longer. So then as soon as I read that, I mean, it didn't take me like, but two seconds after reading his thing about camping, it's like, oh, and I think this is why people are where they are with walking. Walking is like a quaint pastime that people used to do on the prairie before like why like why are you celebrating this? It's like camping. Like not everyone can do it anymore. It's like that's like we are very much starting to look at things comparing them to what the machine of society requires. And so movement is on its way out literally, right? Listen, that's you can get everything now without movement. And we're like trying to argue for this past time, like eating wasps nest. We're like, no, really? If you just ate the wasp nest, it would be so amazing. Like, look, here's all the nutrient density of any like, that's great. It's sort of the same thing. We're just on this like longer trajectory. Right. It's very quaint. It feels quaint to be like, you need to walk more. It should sit on the ground. Yeah, right? It's very quaint. Yeah. So I think about that all the time, but at the same time, I'm like, well, if we go to those questions though, and I was asking about like, how is not having access to while the food, how does that relate to your experience in your life? I bet you if we asked about the movement, like, while we've gotten rid of the need for movement to execute daily tasks, we haven't figured out how to supplement movement in our body yet. Like we've created giants grocery stores to meet that need we don't have that for movement and and I think that this is again to go back to the earlier part that I was saying of why I think we're not making progress with movement has to again do with the definition of physical fitness itself in the definition the clinical definition of what physical fitness is and where all of those tests streamed down from is you have to be capable of doing everyday tasks with a little bit of energy left over and are everyday tasks don't require anything anymore so like on paper because of the shift of society it's the same thing with the shift of grip strength right where they're like everyone's grip straight is is decreasing it's like all right well then here's the new stats for it which reflect the lower numbers so OT you're going to shoot for this lower baseline because society doesn't need stronger grip than that you know until you pull out the other papers like on grip strength and all time mortality is like maybe we do so I think we're just we're at that we're at that place now where there's philosophical conversations that need to go into the I mean the science of movement you know and and does a society determine what fit is you know and and maybe so but I need to hear those arguments and those that hasn't happened yet but I think that's where we are right now like that's why people have a hard time getting attracted it's like I don't need to do anything with my body right I mean if it's all based on you know do you have the capability to do the demands of everyday life and your demand of everyday life is sitting in your chair and going and sitting in front of your computer every day that's that's certainly one kind of physical fitness right we don't really think of that as fitness but you know you can do that without having a really wide movement like until you're in a dust bones yeah until you end up a dust bone so I mean yeah and I think I think you know we're also having this you know conversation about longevity but what I was going to say when you were talking about this I think this is why you know if we want a value movement the way the environment has been constructed for us we do actually have to value like fake movement right like quaint fake movement right like people say okay well you know people in the blue zones like they didn't have to go for a walk and I was like yeah but they were moving their body and they had a wide movement language and they did it for decades they did it for decades they lived and carried moved and did all the things right we don't have that so we do have to intentionally add in this like fake or quaint movement into our lives and actually have that it's a supplement we have to right we have to think about it like that right we're not going to go back to paleolithic times and be able to move our bodies in all those ways so I like my teeth it's true me too can we can do this with you you're I love your writing I love your thinking I think rethink your position is fantastic I think it's such a wonderful way in to think differently about your place in the world and how you choose to express this physicality and the potential of your body in the world that's sort of one valence removed from exercise it really is you just say hey let's reframe the whole conversation and I can't if this book is this good I can't wait to read book number 12 sign me up I'm gonna just bring it right around to writing a lot of books exactly get in there well thanks and likewise your book as well it's um I mean 10 steps 10 glorious simple steps I hope people pick it up and utilize them what's I here's a question what's the step that's hardest for you you wrote the 10 steps but is there one step that's for you the hardest to to do with regularity well also we will both um you know error dirty laundry here the one that's hard hardest for me is the squat test because I have horrible ankle range of motion for a variety of reasons um mostly having crap genetic hips and then a really bad ankle sprain as a high schooler so I really have terrible ankle dorsiflexions so the squat test is for me don't have terrible you're actually a three-ton world champion well but you know what I'm saying like that that for me is the test where I struggle the most and you know the thing that in my view I really need to keep the most ion because I probably won't ever have kelly ankle dorsiflexion but I don't want to have any less than I already have so that's that that's for me a big focus and for kelly I'm an answer it's nutrition but he can say why I just have a hard time eating enough I think same thing I do you think it's because you're working so much like you're like hourly focus and hard to take the time I don't know I don't know I just I will say I'm doing a lot of eating with him he actually for such a large person he can't eat very much in a single sitting like I can easily eat as much as him or more actually in a single sitting and I think that's what kind of dogs him right he's someone who needs to eat more often so it's like you know he may be like a three-meal two-snacks kind of person you're like a hummingbird yeah he's like a hummingbird god help us if we ever see a hummingbird that looks like a thumb it's a jack yeah it's a prehistoric hummingbird but I think you're right I love that and of course I'm going to be using that one thousand times going forward tell us where people who are on our podcast can find you and learn more about you and buy your book rethink your position nutritious movement nutritious movement everything the website the socials yeah and then the book hopefully everywhere book your local bookstore online there's a quote on the book from some guy named Kelly started on the back and I do want everyone to say that if you just read the book you're changed thanks and I think that's really just one of the highest compliments I could give to something you don't have to believe in it it is like a virus a positive virus that just you know upgrades your DNA and makes you just potentially think about the way you interact with your family in the world it's really powerful like the like a earworm like like a like a song like muskrat love that you can't get out of there once you read it thanks a lot yeah thanks a lot for muskrat relive I'm just talking the rest of the rest of the day and same I oh can you tell my listeners where they can find you and your book sure built to move calm we also have a 21 day free built to move challenge that anyone can sign up for it it's sort of a companion course to the book and it's it's our way of trying to help people envision how they can actually fit these habits into their every day time crunch busy lives um even for those people who do do not identify as movers and where I'm at juliet star at on the socials and Kelly is at the ready state on the socials and my podcast is the move your DNA podcast and your podcast is the ready state podcast all right thanks for getting together thanks so much Katie that was so fun thanks hi my name is karlotte from creation this is the move your DNA with gay to goman a podcast about movement we hope you found the general information in this podcast informative and helpful but it does not intend to replace medical bias and should not be used as a subject our team music was performed by Dan McCormack this podcast is produced by Brock Armstrong and is transcribed by the net yet make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to audio and find out more about ksey for books and her movement programs at newfriciousformal.com