EP #144: Having a Healthy Dose of Delusion & Other Tips for Creativity & Success with Caro Claire Burke, Author & Former Editor at Katie Couric Media

Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness in daily living. I'm your host Stella Stephanopolis, and this week I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Caroline Clair Burke, who is the former editor at Katie Kirk Media, now turned full-time author to talk about her upcoming book called "Yesteryear," which is going to be produced and starred by Anne Halfway. And when I found out about this, I had a fan girl moment because Anne Halfway has been one of my favorite actresses since I was a kid, but more so, just really interested to learn more about Caroline's pivot out of the journalism world into becoming an author full-time, and so really what we focus this interview on is the creative process and how Caroline taps into her own creativity, how our mindset can really impact the way that we view success and reach our goals, and the importance of also really just staying open-minded and continuing to advocate for the things that you believe in and the things that you believe are going to make an impact in the world someday. I personally admire how Caroline was able to straddle both worlds, working as a journalist, and also writing part-time on the side and how she eventually made her own pivot to becoming an author full-time, so there's a lot that you all can gain from listening to this interview, just learning from her path, and how Caroline has navigated kind of her own internal landscape of what lights her up, what gives her that sense of creativity, joy, and purpose in the world, and of course what brings her a bit of endorphins. So I hope you all enjoy listening to this episode, but before we dive in, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform that you prefer. Hi, Cara. Thanks so much for coming on to Everyday Endorphins. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a long time coming. I know, and I really just love the full circle moments in life, and I do believe that things happen in like the exact right timing that they're meant to, and I know years back we connected about journalism, and your path has taken a whole different turn in the past, I don't know, six months, so I remember like seeing all your updates on Instagram and just being blown away by all these exciting things that are happening for you. So I'm just really excited to have you here, and it's funny, because I think at the time that we had initially met our conversation, if you'd come on the podcast, then probably would have been entirely different from what we're here to chat about today. Yeah, it is really interesting to think about. I actually think that if we had like gone out to coffee or on the time that we met, my thoughts would have been exactly the same, but I probably would have hidden a lot of it, because I would have been like, I need my employer to think that I'm invest in the long run. And now it can be honest about wanting to be a novelist because I'm going to be one, which is awesome. Yeah, well, you manifested it, I guess, is that appropriate? Just say you were working towards this goal alongside of what you were doing at Katie Kirk Media. So you were kind of from what it looked like on the outside effortlessly balancing both worlds, and it's something I really admire, I'm very public about my full-time job in business consulting and the fact that I run this wellness brand and podcast and that I teach yoga, but I do think it's a really delicate balance to draw when you walk that line trying to give it your all in a corporate setting, but also build something outside of that. So I really admire how you were able to balance both. And now eventually pivoting to being a full-time novelist, which I really wanted to talk about because so many cool updates, but it's just something that I saw on your path that I really admired and felt like I resonated with. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I definitely saw that in you as well. And I think I should also just note, it's such a luxury to have an employer who supports that kind of multifaceted approach. I have friends who have not had that experience. And so I would just say like kudos to your employer for supporting you, you know, within the company that you're working at. And also for letting you do work outside of your job and finding that fulfillment because I think that that is not always a given. So that is rad. I totally agree. And I feel so grateful that that's been my experience so far. I think this could be a completely separate topic in an app, you know, a podcast for a later date, but something I'm really interested in is workplace culture and organizational behavior. And I do think it's important for companies to allow their employees to feel a sense of autonomy over the work that they do. It also signals trusts like trusting that they'll deliver, they'll get the work done. But seeing their other interests as an investment in themselves, which will in turn be an investment in the business at large. So I'm lucky that I've had teams that have been supportive over me doing a million different things at the same time because I've seen it help myself and also help the business at large. But that's a complete tangent, complete aside. What we're here to talk about today is your life and all the cool things that you've been up to. So let's start with the journalism perspective. So we initially met, I was interested in what you were doing at Katie Curric Media, but let's backtrack a little. Why don't you start off by sharing with my listeners a little bit about your journey, how you developed interest in writing and in journalism? I tend to be very hesitant about retrospective because I think it's easy for me to say I always wanted to be a writer, but I don't really think that that's true. I think that throughout high school and college, I really didn't see a world in which my skills were going to be monetizable. Like I always was very opinionated. I always like to share my opinions, but like I mean social media was just like a glimmer in our eye at that point. And I don't know like I grew up in an area where there weren't any working artists that I knew. So I don't think that I like thought of myself as wanting to be a novelist. I always wrote fiction, but it was very much something on the side. So I like did the pre-med thing and then I got straight seas in every science class. And then I did pre-law. And after I graduated from college, I took the LSAT, like the week after I graduated from college. And I never looked at my score. I remember walking out of the auditorium and being like, yeah, I just, I don't know. I was like, yeah, that's not going to work. But then something happened that was like kind of fortuitous, which is that I had had a minor in English and an essay that I wrote for my minor in English ended up getting published in the Atlantic, maybe a few weeks after my college graduation. And so that was kind of a moment where I realized that like maybe I could do something in writing. And then of course I did very little freelance work after that. I did a lot of bouncing around. I worked in tech. And then I slowly started to cobble together a career in media, but it was really never very intentional. And then I think by the time I was 23 or 24, I realized that like pretty much the only thing that I cared about was writing fiction. And when I say that, I mean like it's the only thing that I work hard at. Like I am very unafraid of not trying hard at things. Like I would do freelance work and I would frequently get fired because I wasn't like doing my freelance work well. And it was like always fiction that I was doing work on even what like it was just I enjoyed doing it. And I put so many hours into it. And I think I started to realize like, well, this is the only thing that you actually are willing to put all of your muscle into. And so I think when I realized that, I was saying to my husband the other day that I think that I kind of started to like self sabotage the rest of my career and just like intentionally take a series of kind of dead end freelance jobs because I think trying to be a novelist is so daunting that I think that if you have an option out or this was in my head, like if I had an option out, I was like worried that I would take it and that I would never really sell a book. And so I did like a lot of freelance jobs. And then I finally just landed just, you know, fortuitously my role at KCM, which was like the first legitimate full-time position I had ever had. You know, previously I had just been writing freelance or you know, doing shift work for media companies. And so I worked for two and a half years at KCM and it was a wonderful experience. And during that time I was probably working on my I was working on the second manuscript. And that's didn't work out. And then finally I wrote yesterday year. And we sold it. And it's kind of weird. It's weird to think about because I think for so long it was this thing that was kind of just like something I was working towards that I wasn't really confident would actually happen. Like I kind of just it was just something I was doing. And now it's very weird to look back on and realize like it's weird to realize and retrospect how long I've been moving towards this point. When you look back on it, it's interesting because you have always it seems like been very energized by writing fiction. And I feel like when we lean into the things that energize us and we stay consistent with that, it doesn't have to be our full-time job. But if we consider it a passion or a hobby or a side thing that we do, like if we stay consistent and we build that skill set and we flex that muscle, I only see success coming from that. So it doesn't even surprise me that you were able to sell the manuscript. And now it's being adapted into a film. Yeah. And just kind of to add to what you're saying, I think so often when you go through high school and college, there are so many like structures that you kind of have to exist with and that make you categorize yourself. And I think there's this idea of being type A or type B. Like are you the person who's organized and productive and are you not? And I was not like I was very much type B. And I think I kind of viewed myself as lazy because I just like didn't really want to work. I didn't want to work at a company. I didn't enjoy it. And I think it's been a huge flip for me to be like, oh, kind of what you're saying, like finding joy and energy and something. And I can work in it forever. And that has been a huge change and kind of how I view myself. That's such a good point because I think a lot of us are bred to do the traditional school system and college and go to the best colleges and then get a corporate job. And there's all these ways that we can put ourselves and boxes and someone actually told me my senior year of college I was taking a positive psychology class and the professor at the time told me that when you graduate you're no longer living life in like one dimension you're now in like the 3D realm so you can really go any which way you choose and that's kind of how I tried to approach even decision making now not labeling something as good versus bad. it's a series of choices that you make. And depending on the choice that you make, there will be a series of events and outcomes and consequences that come with that. And it's neither good nor bad. It's just what unfolds naturally. And I think adopting that mindset has actually made it easier for me to make decisions that feel more aligned with what I actually want. And that are respecting my own intuition, being really intelligent around the decisions that I make and not doing something from a place of needing to please someone else, or feel like I'm checking a box, but rather having more confidence over what I actually want to do and feeling good around the decision that I made. And I think that this can really trip us up, especially in careers, especially for people who are in their 20s or 30s and living in an urban area, like New York City, for example, where it's really fast paced. So what I just admire about your story is that even though you were freelancing and eventually you had more of a full-time job, you still kept that passion for storytelling and writing fiction in particular alive. And I can imagine it was really difficult to balance both worlds. So tell me a little bit more about that experience. Yeah, it was really hard. I think harder than the time management, because that's a thing. You know that whenever you're doing something outside of work, it's hard to manage your time. It's hard to manage your social life. When you have a 9 to 5 and then you're adding on work, of course, that takes up the rest of your day. I think harder than that is when you have a goal that is totally separate from the career that you're working in, I think the really hard thing for me was maintaining any level of optimism. I think that I had tried, once I decided at like 23 or 24 that I wanted to be a novelist, like I really put my shoulder into it. And I say that because I'm 31 now, but it's pretty young for a debut novelist, and I know that. And so I don't want to discourage anyone who's older than me. I think it's just that my time frame of like eight years of really trying to do something and not really seeing like movement. Like I had, you know, I moved literary agents and I submitted a whole novel before yesterday. That took five years to write so many revisions. And it was met with like virtual radio silence, you know? And I just kind of had to deal with that failure. And so I think that the harder thing beyond managing my time was managing my own belief in myself. And like trying to figure out like, should I just give up on writing and double down on this job? Should I try to get a promotion? Like where are you managing your investment? Like where are you trying to grow? Because I really had never tried to grow professionally. Like it had always been like growing as a novelist, growing as a writer. And so I think right before I began to write yesterday, I was really at this point, like I was like looking up UX writing courses and doing all of that because I think I was, I had just reached a point of like, God, it's really tiring to be hoping for something else and to be moving town a totally separate road, like to have like totally separate trajectories and to be like, why do I think I'm not getting closer to this thing? Like when you're doing something creative, it's so hard to see if you're close to it or not. If you're making any progress. And so that was a big challenge for me, a big mental exercise all the time, trying to manage that feeling. You bring up such a great point. And it's funny because I was talking about basically the same thing with a friend this morning, who is also in the creative space. Similar to me, works a corporate job, has a podcast, wants to grow at the whole thing. And we were talking about how really the number one challenge is harnessing that belief in yourself and being really, you know, your biggest advocate when things don't necessarily always feel promising or in your case, for example, took you five years to write that manuscript and reflecting on myself, it takes a lot to organically grow a podcast. It's difficult. And there are times when you're not getting that like immediate feedback that you're on the right track or you're doing the right thing, it can feel really discouraging, but you have to be your biggest advocate at the end of the day. And something that I realized was actually really integral to helping me feel more confident over what I was even doing with this project was just developing stronger self-worth. And feeling like I was doing something that was providing value and value did not need to be equated with metrics. Value can exist in other realms. Value can look different. Value can hit five years down the line. It doesn't have to be immediate. And so in order to get to that place, I had to do a lot of reflecting and work on my own belief system, which maybe is like a whole other conversation, but I think creative people in particular really struggle with this because when you're doing something that is not necessarily a linear path, you have to you've to believe in yourself and you have to communicate that with other people. And it's funny because I think that when we initially connected two years ago now, that was a time that I felt so uncertain over what I was doing. And when I look back now, I see the lack of confidence that I had within myself. And I kind of appreciate it now because I can see where I'm at present day. Then I think about, okay, in two years down the line, how much more I'm going to progress and how I'll look back in this moment and say, wow, maybe I really wasn't confident in certain areas I thought I was. So I think there's opportunity to even reframe it with like a really positive spin rather than, oh, it took me this long to do this. And I really struggled building up my own belief system in self-worth. It's actually, I think, a blessing in disguise once you have the awareness and you can get through that. Yeah, I completely agree. It's so interesting that you bring up that point about value and about like assigning, I mean, a signing monetary value, assigning a lot of like capitalistic words to things that are not always aligned within our economy. I think that a big moment for me was that, so just the timeline is that like, I'd spent five years working on this manuscript, this novel, I sent it out on submission, which means you send it out to a bunch of editors, my agent sent it out and no one wanted it. And so after that, I had this like huge creative depression. I guess this is what I would call it. Maybe it was five or six months. And I thought that I wasn't going to write for a while. And I need to kind of like just clear my head, just like work at my job and just take a breath and stop trying to do this thing I'd been doing for so long. And when I started writing "Guest Your Year," before I knew that it was going to sell, I had this kind of funny moment where I was like, "Oh, well, that answers it. Like I'm going to write for the rest of my life whether I sell something or not." Because I'm writing right now and I have never felt farther from selling something. And it was kind of a relief to just be like, "Oh, this is something that I will always do. This is always going to be an urge for me." And I think that when I separated that from the idea of having value to anyone but me, it was a huge light bulb moment of like, maybe I sell something someday, maybe I become known for this or maybe this is something that I just always do alone in my room. And having that I had been working for so long for the idea of like a professional milestone of being a novelist. But I think I realized like, "Oh, I'm always just going to write." And like that's going to happen whether or not I ever sell a book. And so I'm sure the same is true of you where it's like you have an urge to communicate. That would happen no matter what. And it's just happening in the form of a podcast. But I think that it's really meaningful to get to those core truths about why you're doing something. 'Cause the monetization or the commodification of something, it'll happen or it won't, but at the end of the day, that's why you're doing it. That is why you derive meaning in it and that's why it gives you so much pleasure. And so it's nice to kind of have those moments of clarity. - Yeah, no, I love how you articulated that. And something that came out for me, for example, when you were talking about writing always just being something you're gonna do and you're gonna love. And at the time you were thinking, well, the desire was to hit that milestone of being an all-ist and selling a book. When you reflect on that moment, what about selling a book in your mind that was representative of having success? What did that look like to you? - I think there are a few levels to it. I think at the base is like, you write or you speak to communicate. I think there was like a desire to communicate in a feeling like I could do it best through a novel. I think there was also this kind of like really vague unsubstantiated idea that if I could sell a book for enough money to quit my job, I will have reached like some version of myself that it was the goal. And honestly, that was kind of vague and it's really interesting being on the other side of that now and being like, oh, I'm still a person and I need to figure out a schedule and all these things. But I think that I had this vision once I like latched onto this vision of selling a book. It was really the only future I could imagine for myself where I didn't feel disappointed and all of the details around it changed over time. Like, you know, the amount of money I wanted to make would oscillate or like the idea of what type of life I could have. There would be moments where I would think like, oh, just keep a full-time job and I'll just self-publish novels. Like, I had so many different versions of what it looked like but I just like couldn't imagine a world in which I wouldn't be like deeply disappointed at 80 if I hadn't been a novelist. And I think that like the root of that is some form of communication like wanting to write the kind of ideas that resonate with other people or maybe just narcissism. I made it to this whichever way you want to view it. Healthy delusion too. I actually saw like Pharrell Williams. This was a while ago. I don't know, he was speaking at some event. I think it was during the Tribeca Film Festival and someone asked me, him like, what does it take to be successful? And he was like a healthy dose of delusion. And I think it's true. And it goes back to this point of believing in yourself. You have to be a little delusional, not like crazy, but now you're totally right. This might sound cheesy, but like I love Nike's motto. Just do it because that's really the only way to make a change in life or to reach a goal that you're setting for yourself is to just take action behind it. But we get in the way, you know, in ourselves, we self sabotage, we make excuses. But I want to come back to a point that you mentioned around just reflecting on what that looked like for you being a novelist, selling a book. And even earlier, you made a point around how you hit this creative depression, which I think is a really interesting term to use because when someone tells you, no, we don't want to pick this up, that can, I can imagine be such a massive hit to one's ego. Writing is like a very intimate thing. And the same way that podcasting is any form of communication or storytelling, even if it's fiction, I'm sure there's elements in fiction writing that maybe you draw inspiration from your personal life or wherever it comes from. So something that's so close to us as creative, but we also have to separate the self from the output. So when someone criticizes your work or says, oh, I don't want to pick it up, how do you navigate that and not let it impact you in a personal line? First of all, I didn't, I didn't do it all. I went through a whole tail spin. But yeah, you know, it was really hard because I think that you're, I think you're completely correct. You have to believe in yourself to an almost delusional degree to do anything, whether you want to be an athlete or you want to own your own yoga studio or you want to like anything you want to do that is not working in a company for someone else. If you mention it out loud, someone at some point will tell you like, wow, I don't know what, like basically something that says in so many words, I don't know why you think that you have the right to do something like that. And so I think you're completely right that you have to believe in yourself. And so I think that I had been like sustaining myself on this engine of like almost neurotic self belief for a very long time. And so I would like send out short stories to literary reviews and get rejected and be like, pff, they're lost. I'm going to be famous one day. Like I would just like have this in my head that I just really, really believed that I was going to sell whatever novel I was working on because keep in mind, there were multiple before yesterday. And every single one I believed in the same amount that I believed in yesterday, which I think is why yesterday has been a little bit of like a mind scramble for me because it didn't feel different. I thought it was special, but I thought those projects were special. And so when you work on a novel for years, like a relationship with the page and with these characters. And I had been working on this novel forever. I had a literary agent that I had signed with at a very young age. And I was realizing basically simultaneously that both this book was probably not going to sell. And I was not going to be able to keep this professional relationship. So I think I had this whole implosion of my sense of self belief, like the thing that had been kind of moving me forward was this like, of course, you can do it. And then I was like, why did I think I could do it? There's no one telling me I can do it. Like I have no affirmation. I haven't gotten a short story placed. I haven't, you know, we haven't had like a bite from an editor. And so I left my agent. I found a new agent. I went in submission with this novel. And it was just like roundly rejected by a bunch of like really impressive editors. I lost the self belief. Like I didn't maintain it. I didn't find I didn't have separation. And I think for about six months or so, I really just didn't believe I would ever do it. And so I don't ever want to pretend that I like was like really chipper because when you look at it from the outside, it all happened really fast, right? Like I went in submission with this book. It failed six months later. I wrote yesterday really quickly within a year. I had sold yesterday. And so it all seems really quick. But the majority of that year was spent feeling like completely lost, completely like I was like grieving. I was like grieving the version of myself that I thought I would become. And so then when yesterday happened, and I found myself just like writing really quickly one morning. And all of a sudden, I had like this really healthy relationship with an agent who was like cheering me on. And who was like, like while I was working on this novel, she was like assembling this team. And it was a type of it was like I had gone from having so little belief in me, both from myself and others to having everyone around me believe in me. And I think that that kind of like jump started my belief in myself again to have someone be like, no, no, no, this is it. This is going to work. And that was shock. I like I still don't really believe it because it was such a quick turnaround. I try to think about this as having board of directors, like informal board of directors in your life. And so I've noticed there's periods of time where I feel really confident and excited for where my podcast could grow or where my career could grow. And that's amplified when I'm constantly talking to my mentors, meeting new people in the wellness space, having that open receptive energy to new opportunity. And then the flip side is like when I'm not in those spaces, it definitely doesn't help to keep up that self belief, right? And I really resonate with your point on grieving because when you're reaching, reaching reaching towards something and it doesn't pan out on the way that you expect it to, it is really hard to grapple with that. And I think grief is a huge part of just going through like difficult times in life. Like I used to equate grief with the loss of a human in this world and death. But there's this concept of the ego death. And when you're grieving versions of yourself, yeah. And I came face to face with that in the past year. And now being completely on the other side, it feels great. And also it gives me more perspective around how I attribute difficult times in my life to be in the broader scheme of things. And it's actually necessary to go through those periods of difficulty where you're kind of questioning things or you maybe lose your sense of self because that's a signal that you're just on your way to come back to your sense of self and even stronger in a more elevated version. So whoever's listening out there, if you feel like you're going through a difficult time or you've lost that belief or spark within you, it actually doesn't have to be a bad thing because if you fast forward down the line, you'll likely find a way to get out of it. So I see it as kind of like a positive and encouraging moment in life. Yeah. You know, something that I have been thinking about a lot, I can't remember who said this, but there's this concept that like intense hatred or criticism comes from the same place as intense love. And you see that a lot with fans for pop stars, like there is really a fine line between intense a pair of social obsession with a superstar and intense hatred. Like they're all, they're very similar. They kind of like live in your stomach. And I think it's been something that I've been trying to remind myself of because yesterday has received like such a warm reception. And I think that I have had moments of like, how am I ever going to top this? How? Like this is my first novel. This is a really weird way to start your career. What if I get, you know, what if I lose my agent right after this? What if all the same things happen? And I think I'm trying to remember that like the adoration is as real as the absence of that, which is to say like none of it is very real. If you don't need it to be like if it's useful to pay attention to criticism, then I think sometimes it can be if it's useful to receive praise. I know that it can be. But like at the end of the day, they're all kind of like, I don't want to say irrelevant because they do matter in terms of like trying to build something or but like at least for me, I will say I think a lot of it is not relevant to what I am trying to do, which is like trying to write something that is meaningful to me. And if it's meaningful to me, then I can send it out to people. But it's not my job to worry about their response because I think that like worrying too much about that response doesn't get you anywhere good. It doesn't make you better at what you do. So I think that's really important. That's been something I've been trying to work through this year. That's such a good point. It's keeping your gas tank full basically. These things may be in pursuit of something or it can help you get to the next step. But if we like over index on that or focus too heavily on the external validation or the praise or the hatred or whatever is going on around us, that can cloud the initial motivation. It reminds me of just like celebrities in general, right? We think of these really famous actors and actresses and directors and writers and the shared human experiences being on the hedonic treadmill. So let's say you make your first big blockbuster film. And yeah, maybe you make a ton of money from it and you have a lot of fame and recognition. But then what happens when that dies out and you want to make your next creative project, but where's that motivation coming from? Is it coming from the desire to produce and to create and be creative and build something or is it I need to just top what I just did? And I need to keep that relationship to my fans or my fan base and not to say one is wrong and the other is right. But I do think that the former path or way is more sustainable rather than the latter. We're relying on things outside of you. And I would just add like I think that both are so short term. And so I think if you're focusing on something that's happening like a really, really good moment or a really, really bad moment, I think you should experience it. But when you start to spend too much time ruminating on it, like when you're thinking back about the one moment that things turned out amazingly or the one moment where like everyone hated you, you're looking at too small of a data point. And so I think that it also just kind of obscures the work that you're doing and keeps you from being in like a more productive conversation with yourself about like what is my long term goal and what am I working towards and what is my daily routine. And everything around that is like yeah, experience it, enjoy it or don't enjoy it, cry, laugh, whatever. And then kind of remember that it's like all of those were very small moments in time on a much longer trajectory. Yeah, that's very wise. Can you see how much self-talk I'm giving myself this year? Well, that's also why I love hosting a podcast because every interview was an opportunity for me to learn from people who have gained this kind of wisdom in their life. And it's a good reminder for me as well. And I'm sure those out there who are tuning in, and it doesn't even have to, you know, the great thing about what we're speaking on right now is it doesn't even have to apply to someone who's in a directly creative field. It really is around how we choose to live our lives, how we choose to structure our days, and believing that you can do whatever you set your mind to, whether that is pursuing an entrepreneurial path or climbing the corporate ladder, or pivoting into a completely different industry. Life is just a series of choices, and I think we can cause ourselves so much anxiety over like, how do we best inform ourselves of making the right decision? It's really like such a beautiful dance we get to experience where we move alongside the choices that we make and continuously adapt. But I want to hear more about Yesteryear. Let's talk about the inspiration for this novel. And I also want to hear about Anne Hathaway. Like, that's cool. [laughter] Like, I don't know how else to phrase that question or comment, because that's just really cool. And we'll get there. But let's first start with Yesteryear and the premise of the book. Yeah, sure. So I guess the background story is that last winter, kind of as a means to like fill the vacuum because I wasn't writing. You know, I was in my creative funk. I downloaded TikTok. And so I didn't have any friends who were on TikTok, like none of my family. Like, no one I knew was on it. And I think because of that, I felt very free to just like shoot the shit on whatever I wanted to talk about. And so I started doing, I did a few videos on this Instagram account called Ballerina Farm, where I was basically just like, it's this account of this really bucolic family living out in the mountains out west. And everything just looks so perfect and so easy. And I kind of just started saying like, why am I so obsessed with this? Like, I don't really yearn for this specific lifestyle. And yet here I am on Zillow, like looking up these old homes. And so all of a sudden I found myself involved in this kind of like rapidly changing conversation, where TikTok has this like amazing and terrifying and savage and wonderful algorithm where people can find your work very quickly. It's like unlike anything I've experienced on other social channels. And so I had no followers. Like when I downloaded my account, I had like no followers. None of my friends had TikTok. And somehow the algorithm got my video into the right eyes. And people started just talking about it and asking questions. And you know, having these comments on this type of person who we now know to be a trot wife, which is like a person who espouses this idea of like a traditional lifestyle, like a woman who cooks at home. And then there were trot wife influencers. And you know, the woman in Ballerina Farm is a trot wife influencer. They have this image of this like aesthetic lifestyle, but they're also selling you things. And so as this idea started to grow in culture, I just found myself gaining footing in these areas that I just felt comfortable talking about. Like I've spent a lot of time reading and learning in like feminist discourse. I've spent a lot of I mean, I've worked in media for forever. So I had a lens on media literacy and like how so many people don't understand that these accounts are trying to monetize something. Like people think they're just having fun. And it's like no, they're they want you to buy something. So I started sharing these videos and they quickly went viral. And so all of a sudden I found myself in the center of this discussion. And I was thinking about it all the time. And then one day I had the idea for what would become the elevator pitch for Yesteryear, which is a trot wife influencer who wakes up one morning to find herself living in what feels like the 1800s. And basically has to live in the world that she has been cosplaying. And it just felt like this really exciting idea. And so I'd never done this before. I'd never emailed my agent with an idea. I'd always like written pages. I'd never written anything like this. And so I emailed her and just said she knew that my TikTok following was growing. And I just said like I have this idea. It feels like it could be like a really cool little thriller. And I wonder if we could try to sell it on spec. And she was like no, you can't sell anything on spec. This is fiction. This isn't non-fiction. So you have to write it. So she was like write the first 50 pages as quickly as you can. I'll let you know I wrote the first 50 pages in like four days, send it to her. And she was like this is your debut, 100% my agent rocks. And so I mean, I just like gave up everything in my life for the next six or seven weeks. So we just like knew that we had to kind of hit this moment. And so it's like we're to even think back of that time. Like it was just writing like probably four or five thousand words a day. I was like meeting my I mean, also this only happened because my agent was so available. So helpful with me like working on the plot with me as we went. And yeah, we wrote this like I would call it a psychological thriller with like a dose of social commentary. And from the moment I wrote it until the moment we met on submission, I think it was like eight and a half weeks. It's like a crazy experience. But that's kind of just the general idea. It's such an interesting intersection between something that's trending on TikTok, which is also a platform that like might not exist anymore. TVD, right? And then also with your background, it's just it's a really unique angle and just random thought that you had one day. And you want to write something that outlasts a TikTok trend. So that was something I was thinking of the whole time. It's like I want to write a really good knob. You know what I mean? Like a novel is by definition something that takes time. Like I think we haven't nailed the published date yet. But it's either next winter or next spring. So it's like, you know, it's a long time. And so I was very much trying to think of that all the way through. It was like write something that is not beholden to a moment in time online. Yeah, which is hard to do. Really difficult to do. And as you were sharing your response, I was thinking this reminds me of Black Mirror. And a lot of the Black Mirror episodes maybe are I wouldn't say inspired by TikTok trends, but there are nods to cultural things happening right now in our society. But the messaging behind a lot of those episodes will extend the test of time. And it makes you think. And those are the kinds of media that I like to consume. Books, TV, podcasts, etc. So I'm really excited to see when, yes, three years debuted. And I can't even imagine just knocking out the manuscript in such a short period of time. What did that feel like for you? Just being so dedicated to getting it done and working on it? After so many years of just like writing in quiet and never really, like it was just like, I don't know, like I would like, I wrote like quiet novels. Like my first manuscript was like about a family. And then my second one was about like women in college. And I mean, I had some support. Like I had found a literary agent. But like I never had this feeling of like, oh, this has to happen. And I have such a clear, I mean, there are a number of like moments that I think I'll remember for the rest of my life. But I think I had a really clear moment when I sent the first 50 pages to my agent. And she called me and she was just like, this is it. So like, this is what is like, and she just believed in it so much. And so I think like there was such a sense of momentum of like so quickly, this thing becoming bigger than me. And I very quickly had this feeling that it like wasn't even my project. And I mean, that in a really good way. It was like, I was responsible for writing it. But there was a yesterday year group like like my US agent found our UK agent. And she was working with us. And then we had like the foreign team all prepping. And then we were like talking to television. And it was all happening in this way that I had never experienced before. I mean, I might never experience again. And it just felt like, oh, I'm just the writer for this. Like this is like so much bigger than me. And it was really lovely in that way because I didn't feel like, well, what if it isn't good? It was like, where does working on behalf of this project? And it was cool. It was just like a really special creative. Like even if the book comes out and it's like totally pan, which I shouldn't even like share as an option. Other podcasts. I just like, I feel like the experience was such an electric creative experience that it has already borne out its value to me. Like it's already just been so valuable to me. You're like the vehicle that basically communicates this concept in the form of a book. But now it's going to be even more expansive as it's going to become a film. So tell me about the process of pitching a book. I really don't know. Excuse my ignorance. But I have no idea what that process looks like. And you mentioned that the book's going to come out either in the winter or spring. Yes. Winter or spring of 2020. There's been a lot of movement with that. So don't take my word for it. But we are thinking I think winter 2026. And then after that is when the film would go into production. Yes. So I don't know how much I can say about timeline with film stuff. So I'll be kind of vague about that. But what I will say is it's like there are a lot of moving parts. We've nailed down some of the moving parts. And everyone seems to be moving with a lot of motivation. And there is definitely a desire to have the film come out in conversation with the novel. And I mean, I don't know. It's like I don't have to dance around this. It's like it is a relatively timely idea. So of course all these people, you know, you want to make sure that it comes out at a time when it's still part of the conversation. Although my job is making it matter no matter what. But yeah, that's the general idea. I mean, I'm excited. I will keep my eyes peeled. It's not the right saying. I'm not sure. But let's go back to just the process of like pitching a book. Pitching the book or pitching the film. Pitching the book to become a film. Because those were two separate processes. Yes. So basically what happened is I was working with my UK and US agent. And we went out on submission simultaneously in the US and the UK. And so that all started happening quickly. And so while I was having, we had a ton of meetings in the UK and the US. And during that time period, I was also meeting with my film agents, who were basically who are colleagues of my literary agents. They all work at United Talent Agency. And basically the reason why we went out then. I mean, Hollywood is like a very weird industry, and I don't think that anything is like, like there's no standard as far as I understand. But the reason why this happened is because there are these people called Scouts, who I guess like float between the book and the film industry. And so when there is a manuscript that is generating a lot of excitement in the book industry, Scouts will basically grab the manuscript from someone and share it with a bunch of people. So essentially what happened is that people in the film industry knew about Yesteryear and were reading it and sharing it with or without our intrep-- with or without my consent. They were just passing it back and forth to each other. And so my film and literary agents basically said, like, this is kind of directing the decision to sell it now, is like, you want to sell it when there's a lot of interest. And so we sold Yesteryear's book rights, and then the following week we started film conversations. And so it was just like a crazy-- I mean, it was probably three and a half weeks of four or five Zoom calls a day, which was crazy for me. Like, I have never experienced anything like that. So in terms of how those film calls went, it's a range. Look again, film is really weird. With the book deals, you would meet with an editor. You meet with the editor at an imprint, and they say, I'm going to work with you to make this kind of book. And this is how I envision marketing it. And you're looking at the person that you're going to work with. But that's not how it always goes with film. Like, there were, I met with small production teams. I met with talent. I met with a few hopeful directors. So you're meeting with different people who all would have a different route to making it. And that was really interesting and confusing. Just being like, it's like 4D chess. It's like, OK, well, they're really interested. But they don't necessarily have the backing. And this team does have the support because they just did this collaboration. And this actress loves it. But are we sure? So that was really confusing. But we ended up selling it to just the coolest team of Anne Hathaway's production team and this amazing team of women who run film at Amazon. And that was just like genuinely the coolest. They're all just shockingly, not shockingly. They're all brilliant. Just so cool and creative and artistic. And yeah, it was really, really fun. I was a little nervous throughout the process because it was just all happening so fast. And I remember speaking with Anne and the rest of her team. And I was just like, game over, like 100%. Yeah, especially how empowering is it to be working with a lot of women too who are going to bring this to life? I feel like that completely changes the dynamic. And I will say, I think I might have mentioned this prior to recording. I did me Anne Hathaway once many, many years ago. I was like a child, a little kid. And if a celebrity treats a kid well, you can tell they're a good person. And she was just so kind to me. So I have a fond memory of my brief run-in within Hathaway in New York City at a hotel. But I am happy to hear that she's been an amazing partner on this. And she's such a talented actor and creative. So I'm really excited to see how the concept that you initially had then develops into written word through the book, but then is completely transformed into this other medium through film and media. So I'm really, really looking forward to seeing everything unfold and just blown away by how much is transpired for you, really in the course of like a year. Yeah, it's really weird. It's like really, really, I mean, I guess it's just like so much can change in a year, so much can change. And I think that there are so many things that I did for a really long time without ever knowing if they were going to come to fruition and to see them come to fruition all at once. It's like not really something I ever fathomed. But yeah, it's been really cool. I mean, I feel really lucky and I'm just trying to do everything I can to make sure that like, yes, your year has a beautiful debut. That's, I mean, like you said, it's something that I feel like it exists kind of outside of me. And I just want it to, I want to make everyone who has worked on this proud. Like there are so many people who are working on it at this point. And that's a really cool feeling, because I think writing can be very solitary. And it was very solitary for me for a very long time. And now I'm just like, oh, I'm just like, I'm a part of a team for this book. Yeah. And being a part of a team, there's like this electric energy. And there's so much joy that is, I think, cultivated through those shared experiences and building something together. And speaking of joy, tying this into the podcast, into the theme of Everyday Endorphins, which is all about finding things in life that bring you joy and happiness. I have two final questions that I'm going to leave you with. So the first one is, how do you define happiness? I feel like happiness is not thinking about yourself. I feel like that's when I'm happiest, is when like, I leave the picture. And I'm just like experiencing a moment or having a moment of like true presence with the world around me. I love that. I mean, it ties into directly what we were talking about earlier. When we can remove ourselves from something that we create and we so identify with, I've also experienced so much happiness from when I've been able to see myself as the vehicle that just allows creativity to kind of flow through me. This also reminds me of the book Big Magic, which I'm sure you've read. It's all about how ideas kind of flow in and out of you. And I think it's a really beautiful perspective to take on creativity and building things. So yeah, I'll have to response on that one. My final question is, what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? What brings me endorphins every day? I'm like very chronically online. And it's a huge problem for my mental health. And so I've tried to start this daily practice of taking my dog for a three mile walk and not listening to anything. And I actually don't know if it's pleasant. I tend to be very uncomfortable a lot of it, because I think I have such an impulse at this point, to listen to a podcast, listen to music, entertain myself, but I feel very calm after. And so that has been something that I'm trying to hold onto every day, because it is maybe the only 45 minutes of every day where I am genuinely-- I reach a point of just not thinking. And I tend to be overthinking. So that has been very precious to my schedule. I love that. I'm trying to also stimulate myself less. I always have my AirPods in. I'm always listening to the same rotation of music, because I'm crazy, and I don't make playlists on Spotify. So I just run through the same like songs that are the most recent ones that I have. It's ridiculous. But I was in an airport recently. And I was about to pin my AirPods, go to check my bag, go to get my boring pass, all the things. And then I thought to myself, what? I don't need to just listen to the same song. I'm going to probably do that on the airplane for 10 hours. So might as well just be present in the airport. And I think it's those micro moments where we can make a tiny change to be a little bit more present and in the moment that brings more sustained jokes. It is a little uncomfortable. You're like, what? Now I have to sit with my thoughts. But what did people do decades ago when we didn't have this kind of technology? That was just life. So maybe we need to go back to the foundation and the building blocks. Yeah. And I think it's kind of healthy. I listened to a recent episode of the Ezra Client Show where he interviewed Geotolentino. And they kind of talked about how we always value presents and being present, but being present is often very unpleasant. It's often very hard to be present. And it's not always-- it's not necessarily an ideal goal to be present all the time. That's not necessarily how the human brain works. So I think that accepting the fact that sometimes when I go for a walk and I don't listen to anything, I do get bored. Or I do get a little cranky. And just kind of moving through those emotions and just being like, OK, that's fine. That's OK. I can still just be here and just be in my thoughts. And then I can go back and then I can listen to a podcast and kind of allowing that kind of like you were talking about moral neutrality earlier, just being like, the goal is not for me to be like sitting in a Zen Buddhist pose all day long. The goal is to just like check in on myself and have those small goals. Yes. This could also be a completely other podcast, but the value of boredom, even just letting yourself be bored and how that actually can be in service of your creativity. Maybe we'll do another recording on that because I feel like we could talk for another hour on just letting ourselves be bored. But anyways, Kara, it was such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Where can my listeners connect with you? Where can they follow along your journey, Yesteryear's journey? And where can they tune into your new podcast? Thank you so much. That's very kind of you. I think to keep an eye on Yesteryear, just follow me on Instagram, Carol Claire Burke. I don't know when the book will be, when our exact published it is, but as soon as I do know, you better believe I'll be spamming it. So follow me there. And then I do have a podcast called Diabolical Lies, which is like a one and a half to two hour conversation every other week with my co-host, Katie Gotti Tossin about like contemporary feminism and pop culture. And you can find that on Apple podcasts or on Substack. And I hope you check it out. It's a fun time. Amazing. I will hyperlink all of that in the show notes as well. So people can go and take a look and be directed right to your links. So everyone who's listening, it'll all be here in the interview. But Carol, truly this was fantastic. I am inspired by what you're doing. And more so, the approach that you take in your mindset, I think is really admirable. And just really happy that we got to do this. So thanks again for coming on to the show. Thank you for having me. The pleasure was all mine. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard and you want to continue to follow along, make sure to like, rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast on which ever listening platform you prefer. If you want to stay plugged into Everyday Endorphins outside of the podcast, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, and you can also drop your email to subscribe to my newsletter. It's the Everyday Endorphins sub-stack where I talk about the interviews that I've done that month, any events happening in New York that I've hosted, and just a stream of consciousness of my thoughts. Thanks again for tuning in and Reminder to keep spreading endorphins and finding the things in life that bring you joy. Until next time.