EP #143: The Art of Adult Friendships & Navigating Boundaries with Ava Nouri, MS, RD, Founder & Host of The Loving Wellness Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness and daily living. I'm your host Stella Stephanopolis, and it only feels fitting to start the new year 2025 with bringing one of my favorite people onto the podcast. And that person is Ava Norrie, who is a multi-hyphenate. She is the founder and host of the Loving Wellness Podcast, where she brings on holistic health practitioners in the wellness space to talk about all topics related to diet lifestyle, spirituality, approaching or well-being from a loving perspective. It's all in the name. She's an excellent podcaster. She is also a registered dietician. She is very entrepreneurial, and I know that Ava has deeply impacted the way that I view entrepreneurship, spirituality, how to live a good life, how to be a good friend, all the things. And what's crazy is that Ava and I met in New York City very spontaneously. I think we talk a little bit about it later in the podcast, but we basically met when she was living in New York at the time, getting her masters at NYU, became super good friends, and then she, you know, a few months into our budding friendship decided to move back to LA. And what's crazy is that even though we're on opposite coasts of the states, I feel incredibly connected to her and so close, and I feel like that is such a special bond to have with a friend. And so through our own relationship and experiences, and the ways that we've seen each other grow in the past year and a half, two years, we decided that we wanted to record an episode together, exploring a dialogue on the art of adult friendships, because it is something that a lot of people struggle with, honestly throughout our lifetime, you know, how to navigate changes in friendships, changes in dynamics, all the things. And that's exactly what we get into today. A wide variety of topics and advice and anecdotes that we share in our own personal lives and our journeys. And this interview was actually initially recorded and put on office podcasts, so it's kind of more of an interview with me, but there is a lot of wisdom to gain from what Ava shares and the way that she guides this amazing conversation. So without further ado, I'm gonna turn the mic over to Ava, but before we get into this episode, reminder to like, rate, and subscribe to this podcast on whichever listening platform that you prefer. Happy listening and happy, happy new year. Hello Stella. Hi Ava. So we're to see your face and your, like, lips move at the same time. I know it's very rare that we do talk in real time. And for everyone listening, this is Stella. She has been on the podcast before. Actually, this was like two years ago when the podcast was called Thoughts on Driving, which is crazy. Lots has changed, but welcome back to the podcast Stella. And to kind of describe what we were talking about earlier, Stella has become one of my best friends in the most serendipitous of ways. And we have the sort of friendship where we send each other 10 minute long podcast link voice messages to update each other on each other's life. 20 minute. 20 minute. 20 minute is a better yeah, 10 to 20 minute. It's kind of crazy, but so maybe like 10 minutes here and there that adds up to like 20 or 30 minutes. It's kind of crazy, but I love it. And I love you. And I'm so excited to talk to you on the podcast again today, even though we talk all the time. But I had some requests to talk about friendship and adult friendship in particular navigating friendships in your 20s and beyond how friendships start to change and how to kind of navigate that transition. So when I had someone reach out to me asking me to talk about that, I was like, I should have this conversation with Stella because we talk about this topic in our own private conversation. So I'm basically going to pretend that we're just voice noting back and forth to each other. And hopefully everyone else can get some value from the conversation. Yeah, I'm so excited for this. You know, for those who are listening, I don't know if everyone has the stamina to sit and listen to like 30 minute voice notes from their friends and respond like that. And I don't think I did before either, but what I found actually to be really interesting about like the dynamic of our friendship is that you're based in LA. I'm based in New York, although we met in New York two years ago. And I don't see you every day, but I feel way more connected to you, even though we're like across the country, than I do with some of my friends that I even see really consistently in New York. And so now it's like I actually really look forward to carving out that time to listen, to take notes with what you're saying and then to actually respond and give you my weekend recap or what I'm thinking about. And I think we're both people that like really value deep conversations and getting below the surface of like, oh, what did I do this weekend? It's more like how did that make me feel or what's going on in my life or what are these things I've been thinking about. And so that's helped me to stay really connected to you in particular. And I think I'm also going to treat this interview like a voice note back and forth because it's more fun that way. A hundred percent. And I totally agree with what you were saying. And that's not to say that everyone needs a friend that they voice note for 30 minutes every day. Like, and it's not every day. It's like once a week. Just so everyone knows we do not send each other 30 minute points notes every day. But I do think it's such a special like you said dynamic and connection that is very much something that I didn't expect to happen when we first met, right? And I think that's a really good place to start. One of the things that people struggle with a lot these days is like making new friends. And I think we can maybe start the conversation there because it's so hard when we're in our 20s. We're going through so many changes. We're becoming people that maybe we weren't before in high school, college. And there was a lot of structure back in the day when we had these things like school or even summer camp or all the things that we do when we're younger that kind of give us a path to make friends. So I think that our friendship is kind of a great example of finding friends in places that maybe you didn't expect to make friends and just being open to making friendships in ways that aren't as conventional. So do you have any tips on that for people or do you kind of want to share what your thoughts are? Because I feel like you're really good at making new friends better than me for sure. So maybe we can start there and talk about new friendships and bringing in fresh energy into our social circles as 20-somethings and beyond. It's hard. It's really difficult. I even struggle with it. I've reflected on this recently because I have gotten to be really close with a specific group of people in New York. And I love that I have this feeling of being accepted and welcomed by this group of people and that I've been able to forge these really close relationships. But I've also hit a point where I'm like, okay, we're seeing each other every weekend. We're doing the same things. You lose that excitement to try new things, to be around the same people. You're just kind of used to what's in front of you. And I actually don't feel like that's always the healthiest thing in friendships. And it's like this weird line to draw where we crave intimacy and closeness with people and feeling like we're belonging to a community, we're part of a tribe. But once you're deeply ingrained in that tribe, how do you keep it fresh? How do you keep it exciting? And so I've been trying to hold myself accountable, to continuing to put myself in different spaces and out of my comfort zone to just meet new people. And so I think like one great example or strategy people can do to put themselves out of their comfort zone is to like go try a class by yourself, whether it's a workout class or an art class or you know, it's actually funny. I was on a date the other week and this guy took me to some country bar that just opened in New York, like in Brooklyn. And he like went to the bathroom and I started talking to this girl and she literally came to the bar by herself. She just moved to New York and they did like line dancing Wednesday nights. And so she was like, yeah, I just came here to like meet people. And I got her number and I was like, we should definitely hang out. You seem cool. And you just moved to New York. Like I'm from here. I'd love to help you feel acclimated. You know, just very small interactions. So I mean, we haven't like hung out since then. But I honestly would love to. Like I think it's just about keeping an open mind and putting yourself in different places and immersing yourself in different experiences where you can be open to meeting new people and like seeing everything as a learning opportunity. Like you can always learn from someone else, whether they're older or younger or the same age as you. And so just staying open I think is super important. But it is it is really hard to do because we often kind of hold ourselves back and we think that we're going to be judged if we put ourselves out there or it looks weird to go somewhere by yourself. But if you can concretely that fear or not let those thoughts get to you. I think you'll come to realize that it's actually really a sign of courage to be able to just show up as yourself and go somewhere by yourself and be like, "Hey, I'm just looking to meet new people." Luckily, New York is a city that I think that's pretty well received and it's easier to do because you can walk places, you can take the subway, there's more opportunity to just be mobile. But if you're like in LA, for example, you're getting in your car, you can talk more about that than I can. But I do think the environment plays a role in shaping how we build our friendships. Luckily, New York is a city where I think it's really welcome to forge those relationships. Totally. I lived in New York for a few years and I felt like it was a lot easier to make new friends in New York than it is in LA. I will say, though, I still have been able to make new connections here and I think that a big part of what you said, like doing things alone, but going to kind of structured events I've found to be super helpful. So whether you're into wellness, like I am, or maybe it's an art thing, I don't know, like a pottery class, going to these sorts of classes, like you said, or even events for that thing or events in your industry, depending on what you do for work, it's like a low stakes opportunity to meet people who are probably yearning for the same types of connections that you work as they're going to an event about something that they're passionate about, hoping to meet people who have something in common with them. So I think that that is a really good way in terms of like in LA and in cities, there's so many different like clubs in LA. These days, there's like blocks and there's, you know, pickleball clubs and tennis and beach tennis and all these things, you just have to kind of like pick one and go to it and see if you find people you vibe with and I think that can be really helpful too. I also think you and I are both really like we both love to reach out to people in our industry and have coffee chats. I did this a ton in New York a lot more than I do it here, but still I've been able to do that here as well and it's a really nice way to make connections and you know open your network up in your city, but it's also kind of like one of those things where if you don't expect it, maybe it can have the start of a new friendship from that kind of networking opportunity too. Yeah and I like how you shared this term around networking because in a way when you're meeting new people, you are kind of networking and I think that there's this huge misconception around networking is this very transactional thing or it has to happen in the corporate setting, but like we low-key networked. Yeah, we did. We did, but it wasn't this like stuffy. It was such like to give your listeners my listeners some context really to how we met. At the time you had thoughts on thriving your podcast, now loving wellness and you reached out to me somehow you found my platform and you were like, "Hey Stella, I'd love to interview you." Sounds like we have a lot of things in common and we do and we did that. Seeing age, you went to Berkeley, I went to WashU, LA, New York, similar vibe. You were in New York for your your master's degree in nutritional science and becoming a registered dietitian and so we just had a lot to connect on and I was like, yeah for sure, like let's do it and what I actually really loved that you did at that time was not only did you ask to like do an interview together, but you took the initiative to be like, "Hey, I also signed up for your event with Aloe and I'm excited to meet you in person." Like that small action was so monumental for me because it showed like this girl who doesn't know me actually is going out of her way to get to know me and to want us to check out what I'm doing for herself and you came and we met, we did the interview and then from that moment forward I was so impressed where I was like, I want to express my gratitude for this person finding me and like wanting to forge a relationship with me. I'd love to go and like get a coffee, get a dinner, learn more about this person and I can't really pinpoint the moment that like was the catalyst for all of this but something happened from that point onwards where like I was seeing you maybe on a monthly basis in New York and I remember yeah maybe honestly even less because our schedules get you know so busy and then I remember you left, you graduated, you moved back to LA and May of that year so I guess 2023 until now like you've become one of my closest friends and so I think it's just really special when people take the initiative to to connect with others that they really feel like there's there's synergy and there's similarities and it requires being fearless and you have that quality and it's something that I think natural extroverts have but even people who are more introverted can cultivate this skill set and it doesn't have to be like I called email this person I did like it's just natural it's just being like a conversationalist it doesn't have to be that deep you know totally and I think also you coming to visit me in LA was a huge catalyst too because I'm trying to think of like what was the thing that like brought us so much more close together we were close in New York but I think when you came to visit even that fearlessness like you're talking about it's like I'm coming at LA can I stay with you a lot of people wouldn't ask that but of course I was like of course come and stay with me and it'll be so fun and we had such a good weekend that weekend and I think moving on from there is when like all the voices that just started because we were like we want to stay connected with each other so I think that A it's really important not to have expectations with any type of relationship with romantic relationships that's really important when you go on dates to not build things up in your head but with friendships it's the exact same thing so I think that's the first thing I wanted to touch on and then the second thing is that like you said you don't have to be an extroverted person if anything I would consider myself more of an introvert than I do an extrovert so if I can do it anyone else can just don't take it so seriously like I reached out to you on Instagram I think Instagram is a great I mean of course I have my qualms with Instagram as you know but I think one of the positive things about Instagram is that you can reach out to people and DM them and send them a message about whether it's you admire their work you admire what they're doing on Instagram or it's like hey I think we'd be friends because it seems like we have a lot in common from what you share on Instagram want to get a coffee if we're in the same city or whatever else and people are actually really craving that like I said before and people are gonna be a lot more open to that than you think and if anyone ever did that in my DMs and they lived in my city and they seemed like someone I'd get along with I'd be so honored and so excited and kind of like get those little butterflies and be like oh my god a new friend a new potential friend right so that fearlessness is really important too and I kind of wanted to touch on this idea that we've been talking about recently of everyone in their 20s kind of feeling regardless of how how many friends they have how deep their connections are I feel like a lot of people just feel like they don't have a lot of friends right now they're feeling lonely and we were both listening we both listened to this podcast recently talking about this loneliness epidemic that we're all facing and that podcast was interesting it was talking about more like how our relationships are centered around our romantic relationships and how those are kind of at the center of our lives making it so that there's not that much room for friendship especially once we're in a more serious committed relationship with a significant other however I think that there's a lot more to it I the pandemic had a lot to do with it I also think that it's really hard to navigate being in different life stages speaking of romantic relationships some people who are in partnerships maybe feel like they can't relate as much to their single friends and vice versa I think that once we get older and people start to have kids it's going to be the same thing of like okay my friends all have kids I don't I feel kind of left behind and then you know so on and so forth with all the different transitions we face as adults so what are your thoughts on this idea that like everyone is kind of lonely deep down but we're not talking about it and we're not doing anything about it either I think it's so true I think we all are suffering from this like loneliness epidemic right now and it's also very ironic and we've talked about this as someone who's very social there are so many times where I'm like wait who are my friends yeah which doesn't add up it really doesn't make sense and I know that I have a community in New York and people that I love and that care for me and that I care for and that support me and yet sometimes I still feel like who are my friends like why can I find anyone to hang out with me and this is actually like on a more personal note something I've been trying to work through and get better at is being by myself and just being alone so I I'm the type of person to like stack a thousand social plans yeah tending to overcommit myself as oh my god when I look at Stella's when she tells me about her week ahead I'm like oh my god if I have one of those things I'd be so anxious for the week literally like I don't Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday this this and this there's always something going on and yeah I love it I'm energized by it but I also think I'm really drained by it too And so I think it's a mindset shift, like for me, - Totally. - Thinking if a plan is canceled, for example, instead of seeing that as an open slot in my calendar now that needs to be filled by other experiences and interactions, why can I allow that time to now be brought back to me, pretending like Stella another, like is a friend of mine. How would I do, what would activity would I do with that person? And like, what can I do as a solo activity? So I'm working on this mindset shift now of like learning to enjoy time spent alone and like seeing that as nourishing and rejuvenating and energizing, like treating rest as something that is productive rather than, oh, I'm just gonna like watch TV by myself and do nothing and like zone out, like, oh, I wish I was doing something else. I'm really trying to work on that mindset shift. And so what's interesting actually, you asked like, why aren't we talking about this loneliness challenge we're facing? It's because I think there's embarrassment even to be able to admit, oh, I have trouble sitting by myself because we feel like we need to be out and doing things and yeah, okay, I said it, I have no shame, I can't, like I said it. And I would hope that other people also are honest with themselves too, if that's an experience that they're having because when we can start to be more open and vulnerable about like, hey, yeah, sometimes I feel really lonely, I feel pressured and maybe go out and do things or I don't feel okay, just giving myself time to rest. Like if we can normalize that conversation, I think in a way it makes us feel closer and more connected to people when you recognize like, oh, you're not the only one that's struggling with this right now. And to your point, yeah, like it's probably a product of things with COVID, social media, feeling fomo, all of that good stuff. - Totally. - And I don't really have an answer as to how to combat it completely, but something that I know I'm trying to work on is like, being okay with time outed back to myself, enjoying that time alone. And I think it's hard to do in a place like New York where there's a lot going on around you. It's easier to do maybe in an environment where it's a bit quieter and there's less energy, you know. I totally agree with that because going from that end of the spectrum to an environment where it is more quiet and there is less energy, I do feel a lot less guilty when I'm not doing something all the time. And in New York, I feel like there's this energy of like, I have to always have a plan, I have to always be doing something and it took more intention to be like, no, you have to have some alone time too, which I love and I actually think that one of the things that I am very good at, almost to a fault is spending time with myself. I fall on the other side of like, I need to push myself to go out more and to do things with people to nourish myself in that way. So, you know, we're all different in that way of like, where we're at. And I think it's also, 'cause looking back, I used to be more similar to you and like I used to always have plans, I used to always wanna be surrounded by people. And it was great in that stage of my life and I really enjoyed that and it really served me. And I think there's different stages and different seasons for different things and different levels of prioritizing friendships too. Something else that we've been talking about that I wanted to touch on today is 'cause you're talking about this idea of like being okay with being alone and kind of accepting that but also using it to your benefit instead of just kind of sitting and zoning out, hoping that you're doing other things with other people. In our 20s and like as we navigate getting older, people are working now, it's not as easy or convenient to see people. It's also a time where we're all changing a lot. I think I've said that a couple times at this point. And I think we can both speak to that ourselves of like the inner growth that we've both experienced recently and we talk about this a lot with each other. And I think it's really hard to feel like you're changing but maybe your friends aren't changing along with you or maybe they're changing too but in different ways and you're kind of growing apart in a way. And A, I think that's so okay and it's something that's just a part of life that we all need to accept. But personally for me, I think I've learned also that I would rather have higher quality relationships than quantity and I think that when I was younger, quantity was really important to me. And now I feel like I've been a lot more, or at least I've been trying to be a lot more intentional about who I spend my time with. One of my mentors said to me, like I'd rather be alone than hang out with people I don't like or don't wanna hang out with. And I was like, honestly, yeah, like it's so simple. It's not that crazy of an idea. Yet we all do it. We all hang out with people that we don't feel good after hanging out with and we all hang out with people who maybe we leave feeling not so energized and it's not that that's not okay or a failure on our part if we continue to spend time with them. But using that as feedback of like, okay, how do I feel when I'm around that person? Does that person energize me? Am I feeling uplifted? That's another thing I always ask myself when I leave interactions. Do I feel drained? Because that's not something I wanna be doing with my time and energy that's so precious to me right now and that I don't have a ton of. And I think that's something that you've been trying to work on as well, just throughout our conversation. So do you have anything else you wanna add on this kind of quality over quantity idea? It's such a profound insight to share, checking in with yourself like energetically. How do you feel after being around someone? Something I've also had to work on is not giving into like people pleasing mechanism. So 100%. It's been difficult because I think I've had certain friendships where I've been really close to a person but been afraid to be honest with them about how I've actually felt, like noticing path-stiverging, noticing that I actually don't wanna spend as much time with them as I used to and feeling really uncomfortable and guilty around a, even having that realization, but then be like not knowing how to be honest about that because of the fear of hurting that other person. But in reality, I was actually doing a disservice by not being honest from the get-go. And that's a people pleasing mechanism. And I've also noticed in other relationships trying to impress others by surrounding myself with a different group of people, even though I didn't really enjoy spending time with that group of people, but doing it to kind of stay relevant in that friend group or to stay relevant to that person that I wanted to impress. Again, it's like at the end of the day that's not in service of me, that's in service of someone else. And it kind of lowers your magnetism when you're making yourself small for someone else or you're not following your own authenticity or like being around the people that actually uplift you. Like why spend your time with people that, you don't feel like you're really getting anything out of that interaction. And I don't mean that in like a transactional way. I mean it in like wanting to surround yourself with people that expand you and uplift you and broaden your horizons. And there are just some people that may be wonderful humans, but like aren't contributing something to your life. And as we age, we're past the point of friendships from convenience. Our brains are developing more, we're maturing, and we're starting to tap into like friendships of utility, friendships that actually add something to our lives. And as we grow, sometimes we're not even cognizant of what we need to be added. It's kind of like trial and error until you have that direct experience, you just don't know. And it can be difficult like in that process of directly experiencing your needs that you start to realize, oh, this person's not really in alignment anymore with what I need from others and in my life and how I want to grow and progress. And coming to that realization is difficult, but it's necessary, I think, to grow and to continue to attract people that are more in alignment with what you're looking for. It creates space for those connections to deepen with the people that are or fitting at that time. Totally. And I think you mentioned something really important, which is that guilt that comes with that realization, which I don't think needs to be, it's not necessary, right? Because it's kind of a crazy idea to expect that we'd be best friends at the exact same people we were best friends with from middle school moving forward in our lives when we are ever evolving humans, right? So the idea that, and those are really special friendships, don't get me wrong where you can stay friends for that many years and continue to learn together and grow together and evolve together. However, I think that's the exception, not the rule. And in society, I think it's kind of the other way around. It's like that's the rule. You have to keep your friends forever. And that's not to say that we all need to break up with all of our old friends because we don't have that much in common anymore. But I think there's value in switching the dynamics, switching of like being okay with your friendships changing and knowing that maybe someone who was once your everything friend is now the friend that you catch up with once every few months and having that be okay. 'Cause I don't think it always requires like an end to the friendship, But I do think that if one person, feels like there is an expectation that the friendship is going to continue in that way that it used to be. And then maybe the other person isn't on the same page. That's when maybe a conversation is required. That's when some tension can start to form. And I feel like maybe you can relate to that in terms of recent experiences you've had. And I've had similar ones in the past two of maybe we're not on the same page anymore, right? And like that can be really hard. And that's I think where the guilt comes in too. I am of the team. There is no point in burning bridges because like it's only going to hurt you at the end of the day. And you don't want to put negative energy into the world because that comes back to you. Like bad karma. Keep the good karma, good vibes. And I think there's a difference like if someone wronged you or if someone treated you like a bad friend intentionally, then that's a that's a whole different conversation. That's placing boundaries. That's removing toxicity from your life. And if it's a friendship that was, you know, a good and healthy friendship, but you've just gone your separate ways, there's no need to put out the bad energy. You know, it's these things happen in life. And what I will say is I think really important to keep in mind is that to this point of not burning bridges, it's really important. And it's an important skill, I think, to learn how to sustain relationships like to keep in mind the longevity of certain relationships. And naturally, if you want a friend for life, quote unquote, you were going to ebb and flow in and out of like closeness because life happens. And in order to keep a friendship alive long term, like I think of my, you know, my dad, for example, who has college friends that obviously he doesn't see every day and keep in touch with every day, but it's still someone he would consider a friend. Like 30 plus years, you learn to have boundaries. You learn to levels that expectations. And I think boundaries in particular are so important to put in place and to communicate that because it allows for creating a healthy long term dynamic. And I've really had to work on getting comfortable with expressing my own boundaries and the ins because I've had trouble in the past like being okay with saying, yeah, like I need to put up this boundary. Like I, it's, I viewed it in the past as something that was, you know, self centered or aggressive, but I think a, it's in the delivery and be like the type of boundary that you set. They're not the same thing. And then it's a similar analogy, like putting on the oxygen mask on yourself first before someone else. You need to do those things in service of you first so that you can help create and maintain a healthy dynamic in a friendship. And that I think is like a hard learning. But once you learn how to do that and just practice it, it gets easier over time, I think. Totally. And I think it's not really normalized right now to have these hard conversations and friendships. We have no problem having these serious hard conversations in relationships in, you know, in our romantic relationships with partners or even in our families, you know, but in friendships, it's kind of something you push under the rug and you don't talk about it and all this resentment builds up and then people wonder why you've grown apart and it's because you're not communicating. We're not taught how to communicate. So it's, you know, we have to give ourselves grace too. I don't think there's ever been a class in school on how to communicate with your friends or how to set boundaries or how to level set expectations. All the things we're talking about, but it is such an important skill to have not just in friendships, but really in all relationships, even at work. It's like we have hard conversations with our bosses of like how I'm doing at work. What are my goals for the next quarter? So kind of starting to change the dynamics and energies around conversations with friends can be really important as well. And I think you've done a really good job recently, just in your own personal life as someone who's been hearing about it and watching in the background of having those conversations that maybe you wouldn't have been comfortable with bringing certain things up before and now you've been a lot better at like actually standing up for yourself, which is definitely something that is so hard to do. And going back to that fearlessness and courage, I think those are two traits you have that are very important for these conversations. But with the point of like having these friends change or these friendships change rather, we can only have a certain amount of close friends at once. So once again, it's kind of crazy to expect that we're going to have like 10 best friends that are the same people and be able to also add on to that. And there's this, I was listening to this other podcast, which I think you listened to part of it as well on this friendship expert she was talking about Dunbar's number. I'm pretty sure it was called where we only have the capacity for five really close relationships. And apparently a significant other takes up two of those relationships, two of those slots. So in theory, we only have the space and time and capacity for three best friends on top of if we are in a relationship and if we're not five people who are just really close to and I feel like family relationships even count towards that. So if you're really close with a few members of your family, it's like we can't expect ourselves to have maybe the time and space and capacity for these really close relationships as before. And that's not to say it's not possible, but it's also once again talking about expectations. And maybe these are friendships that now are just really close friends instead of your right or die people and kind of being okay with that. I think we have a lot of expectations as we grow older to have our friendships stay the same or to get the same value out of our social circles as we did before. But I think that we have to also prioritize those things. So if you don't have time and space for more friends or if you're not making the space for deeper connections and relationships and conversations, which is what keeps those relationships alive, then I would also be really mindful of that and maybe try to carve out more time and space for those things. If that's something that you want to start to prioritize. And if you're feeling like you're really resonating with that loneliness and not having deep connections and wanting to cultivate more of that in your life. Yeah, I completely agree. And something that I thought of too as you were speaking was that, you know, I think about some really close friends in my life. And I've leaned on them for support during different circumstances and events that have happened in my life. And one Frenchman particular comes to mind. You know, a few years ago, I was really like stressed over this one situation. And I remember vividly just like leaning on one particular friend for support. And he made me feel so much better over the whole situation. And now we don't text every day, but that's like that's totally fine. It doesn't make me feel any less close to him than I also can appreciate the role that he served at that time in my life, helping me to move through something difficult. And knowing that right now, like the nature of our friendship has shifted a little, but it doesn't mean that I don't consider him a close friend or someone that I want in my inner circle to things just naturally shift and change. And also at that time, like I think about two years ago, I barely really knew you, right? And now like fast forward to present day, you are like very central to my inner circle. And it's exciting, I think, to see how as we continue to age and go through different milestones in our lives and experiences, the different connections that will kind of come to the surface and how those people can play a role in shaping the trajectory of our lives as we continue to grow. And it's really just growing pains too, because when you lose something, it can be hard to feel that, but you also have to realize like you're gaining something at the same time, a different connection, a different relationship. Right, it's kind of that cliche saying of like one one door closes, another one opens, and I find that that's always true in my life, at least. And even if it's a really hard process of having that door closed, it usually creates space for something better and even more exciting and even more aligned with who I am in that next phase than that previous thing, that previous door that closed. So that's a really good point too. And I think it's also like you said, like different friends are there for you in different circumstances, but also it's important to talk about this point. And I know you agree with this as well of like having different friends for different things and not putting all your eggs in one or two baskets. So I think it's really important as we get older because we don't really structure in our minds, friendships in this way when we're younger, but because we get older, it's like, okay, we have different friends for different interests in our lives or for different things that we're responsible for. So if people listening are moms, like you probably have mom friends, but maybe those aren't your right or the besties. And then maybe your people who that you, you know, you go to yoga with are not your friends outside of that, but your friends in yoga and like all these different kind of connections. I know I can think of so many different circumstantial friendships and that's not a bad thing either. It doesn't have to be bad that like your only friends with this person when you go to this workout class and you guys chat before and after the class, but maybe you don't hang out after. And maybe you want to hang out after and you can reach out and you can make that happen, but also being okay and not having, you know, putting pressure on yourself to make it more than it is is really helpful to like I can think of people that I'm friends with through my boyfriend where it's like there are a couple friends. but I'd probably never hang out with that, like, you know, the girl in that couple alone. And that's okay. There's no pressure that I'm placing on myself to, like, become best friends with this girl if I don't feel like she would be someone who's my best friend. - Yeah, totally. Also recognizing, I mean, it goes back to, like, Aristotle's theory on friendships of utility. Like, it's okay to have different friends or different things. And not every person that you develop a friendship with has to, like, hold space for all of the things that you're dealing with. - Yeah. - Like you said, you can really only have, like, what, three to five people at a time that are really in that immediate, immediate circle. And, frankly, it would be a little bit of a red flag to have a million best friends because how close are you really, right? And, like, that's also not respecting the other person's energy and time and ability to even know if they're able to hold space for you in that way. That's why I think it's also okay that you can have friends for different things and you can be okay with, like, okay, I like doing yoga with this one person and that's all it needs to be. Like, we can enjoy our company doing this shared activity and having a shared passion. And that can fill up this part of my cup. And then I can have friends to do, like, cultural experiences with in my cultural community. Like, you know, I'm Greek. There's lots of Greek events. You're Persian. I'm sure there's Persian events too. Like, you can have your Persian friends. I can have my Greek friends that may or may not also want to do yoga and vice versa. I'm sorry. I think it contributes to a very robust, like, fulfilling life when you can really stay present and different experiences with different people. And being okay with that and realizing, like, yeah, you're not gonna have an everything friend, mostly clean. And you might have one, but it's like also being okay with that everything friend. If that is someone who you have so much in common with and you do so many things together, there's probably a few boxes they don't check off either. And I think it's really important to also have friends who have different interests and different boxes and different kind of passions in life than you. Although it's really fun to also have friends who are really similar and have similar goals and similar values to you. But I think it's also nice to diversify as well. There's a couple other things I wanted to touch on before we wrap up, because I can't believe it's almost been an hour. The first thing is this idea of friends triggering us. I feel like this is a really tough thing that we kind of need to start taking responsibility for. And I wanted to talk about this with you because I know we've both had experiences where we do get triggered by friendships. And I think that idea of, like, learning to not respond from the pain that you're in, but rather using that as feedback and as a mirror, because I believe, honestly, that all relationships are just mirrors for our own personal growth. And once again, that doesn't mean that we're only using relationships to make ourselves better. But it does mean that when we enter into a relationship with someone else, there is probably something that that person needs to teach us. And it might be for that saying of like, they're in your life for a season, a reason, or a lifetime. It might be for a specific reason, a specific lesson, you need to learn. It might be for a specific season of your life because you do have something that you're both going through at the same time. I think of, you know, friends I had in grad school that I'm not really friends with anymore because we're not in grad school together anymore. And that could be applied to so many different seasons for other people, but getting triggered by friends and having these harder conversations, going back to what you were saying about that, can be a really good gateway to our own personal growth and evolution. So what are your thoughts on that? - Yeah, I mean, that's so well said. I forget where I read this or maybe heard about it in a podcast, but oftentimes when something bothers us, it's less the person that delivered it or like the actual thing that it was said that bothered us. And it's more like diving deeper and realizing, okay, well, like what about that is upsetting me? Like why is it that this particular thing is setting me off? And it usually hits some sort of like wound or like unprocessed issue that we just haven't really brought conscious awareness towards. So I've noticed in certain friendships, if I'm feeling triggered by something, I try to not like lash out in a response or be passive aggressive. Like I don't think that really gets anyone anywhere, honestly, it makes things way worse. It's important to like take a beat, pause, and think about like, why is it that that thing that was said, like really upset me? Like what is it about that thing that really annoyed me? Like I'll give you an example. I was having lunch with a friend and I was actually talking about relationship issues, like friendship issues and he said to me, well, you like to, you know, like to create a little bit of drama and that pissed me off. Like I didn't really react in the moment. I thought about it after the fact I was like, that's actually really hurtful. And I took a minute to think about it because knowing that person in our friendship relationship, I don't think he would ever do anything or say anything intentionally upset me and hurt me. So it wasn't an insult and it wasn't communicated in a way that made me look bad. Like I don't think that that was the intention. I know it wasn't. But then I thought to myself, why am I so worked up over this idea of being dramatic? Like why does that really bother me? And then it reminded me of when I was in elementary school and jokingly kids would be like, oh, you know, like Stella's like so dramatic. I as a kid, if you knew me as a child, like, I mean, I was very theatrical. Like I wanted to be an actress. There's some elements in my personality that yeah, maybe a little dramatic for sure, but there's a difference between attracting like drama into your life versus being animated and being expressive. Like that's very different. And I think as a kid, that's equated. And so I always saw being dramatic as something that was like shameful or I should like push that part of myself down and not really embrace it. And it was actually in that moment that it clicked for me that like I have this issue with being seen as dramatic 'cause it really like, I feel sensitive towards that. But it's on me to learn to not take that personally. And it's on me to not let that little comment that definitely was not malicious, get in the way and you know, stir the pot with my friendship towards that person. And so we really need to like commit to developing the self-awareness, to not feel like attacked by other people who may say something that we may take really personally 'cause oftentimes it's not meant to be that personal. So I think, you know, when we get triggered by certain friendships, it's an opportunity to dive deeper and to actually think critically like, why is this upsetting me? And that's probably where the answer lies. And again, all of this is to say this is very different than like a toxic relationship with the person's intention being to hurt you or cause an issue or cause tension. It's a whole different conversation than someone who has peer intentions and is being playful and joking and whatnot. I love that example you shared 'cause I think that everyone can probably think of a comment that was made to them by a friend, someone that they really love and care about that maybe stung a little. And I think it's a really good, once again, speaking of feedback from the people around us, like a really good piece of feedback to maybe look inward like you said. And I think that if everyone could approach their friendships and all these conversations with the exact kind of framework that you just presented, we'd all be better off and a lot of unnecessary tension, conflict would be resolved just naturally because we would be communicating more but we would also be working through things within ourselves before bringing it to that other person unnecessarily. Which I think is really important because we all come from different backgrounds too. We have to remember that our friends are not as much as they might feel like family. We, you know, in our families, or at least I'll speak for myself, I was, you know, my sister and I were raised by the same people. So yeah, we have similar ways of expressing ourselves and maybe it's easier for us to have these conversations because in our family, certain things were done in certain ways. But then when you go into the world and meet people who are not people who were raised by the same people as you and maybe had different backgrounds grew up in different places, there are so many factors that play into how someone communicates what they think is okay and not okay to say, what they feel comfortable with sharing, the level of self-awareness they have, all these different things. So if we could all take things a little less personally too, like you were saying, we'd all be better off as well. And maybe our friendships would be a little bit more smooth too. So to round everything out, 'cause I think we've talked about so many amazing topics. I've had so much fun chatting about all the things that friendship with you. The last thing I wanted to kind of ask you and get your thoughts on, 'cause you said that self-awareness piece and I was like, hmm, that's really good. Like that's one of the most important qualities I've realized that I want in a friend and that I really look for in a friend. So I wanted to pose the question to you, what do you think makes a good friend? Like what are the traits and qualities that maybe people not should be looking out for 'cause we're also different, right? But that maybe people wanna think about when they do go out in the world and reach out for coffee chats on Instagram, like we were talking about or go to events, when they want to make a new friend. And of course, there's a level of synergy and just chemistry that needs to be there. But in terms of personality and traits that people have, what do you look for in a new friend at this stage in your life? - That's such a good question. I think probably one of the number one things I look for in a friend is if I can depend on them, like if they are reliable, if they say that they're gonna do something and they do it, or if they say that they're gonna show up for me and they do it, they say that they're gonna make a plan, they stick to it, or if they have to cancel it, they propose another time where they make an effort to continue to see me. I think that's one of the most important qualities I look for because it's a standard I hold myself to. It builds trust with people. Like if you say you're gonna do something, do it, act on it. And I've had to get better at giving myself and others grace, life gets in the way, changes happen, plans change, that's okay. But generally speaking, to be able to trust someone, I think you need to, they need to prove to you that they're reliable and that they're consistent. So that's really important to me. And I also think that someone who's a good listener, I think is a good friend. Someone who hears you, engages with you. I mean, for me, it's important to feel seen in that way by my friends. And a lot of my values lie in the health and wellness space, building my podcast, building that brand. And to be able to connect with others who, maybe they don't have a podcast, maybe they're not into health and wellness, but who care to learn more about my passions and want to help me succeed and want to help support me in the things that I'm doing. That means the world to me. And you can show up in different ways, but to show up at all is so, so, so important for me. And I would say that those are probably the most important qualities that I look for in my relationships now. Yeah, it sounds like you're your love language with friendships, which I feel could be different from romantic partners. I don't know, I'm thinking of what my love language is with AJ. And I'm like, I don't know if that's the same for friends though. Like I have different ones for different relationships, but it sounds like yours is kind of that acts of service and just like that showing up and not that people need to do things for you, but that reliability kind of is in a way that act of service to you as a friend. So that's beautiful. I completely agree with those things. I also think that for me reciprocity is big too. So if I'm putting a ton of effort into a friendship and it's not really being given back to me and I'm not getting that same level of just presence from someone, I think that that is, I mean, not even a red flag. It's just good once again, feedback for me. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'm not going to put as much energy into this friendship. And maybe this isn't the kind of person who's going to be there for me in the good times and the bad times. So that's another really important one I think that also can be flexible, right? Life gets in the way, like you said. And I have no problem with people changing things and rescheduling plans because I'm like, I get it. We're all so busy. We're all doing so many things. But at the same time, showing up, it depends on where someone is coming from. But when someone shows up for me in a way that I know was a lot to have them do, it means the world. Whether it's showing up to an event or showing up to like even driving an hour or something to come see me with all the traffic in LA, those little things mean a lot to me. So I feel like that kind of level of loyalty and showing up for people in ways that you want to be supported is really important. I completely agree. And I think it's important to like know what you're looking for and to be okay with that too. I think that's really important as well. And the more self-awareness you can gain, the more selective you'll be with your friendships and you'll likely attract better relationships in your life too. Totally. Self-awareness is like number one in my opinion. Yeah. I think it's really, really important. Is there anything else that you wanted to kind of say, share with people any last parting words of wisdom before we end today? You know, I think just giving yourself grace is really important. And recognizing that you're likely not alone. I mean, we're both in our 20s and we're having a very candid conversation about this. I think it just goes to show that we're all kind of thinking these things and it's important to bring that to light. So whoever's listening, I hope you can resonate with what we're talking about. You see yourself a bit in these conversations. A few of thoughts like reach out to Ava, reach out to me. Would love to hear what the community thinks about. Some of our takes on friendships and navigating those changes in dynamics over the course of our lives. But I think giving yourself grace is important. You know, we're all kind of collectively experiencing this phenomena. And I think it's important to be kind to yourself too and to feel empowered to choose the friendships that you want around. You know, you're an active participant in your life. You are not just cruising in the back seat. Like you are in the driver's seat and how cool is it to get to have that agency and control? I was listening to this podcast yesterday and the lady was like, I'm allergic to victimhood. And I was like, honestly, same. Like we have a lot more and it sounds a little harsh, of course, but playing the victim when it comes to anything with, you know, I have no friends. I, you know, the friendship thing or with really anything in life, isn't going to get you to where you want to go. So instead kind of directing that energy toward things that are going to be more productive, whether it is working on yourself to become the person that you would want to be friends with or whether that's putting yourself out there more and reaching out more, I think your energy would be a lot better directed in those ways than to play the victim in anything in life. So that is what I will leave with. I do want to ask you my five rapid fire questions that I ask everyone. I know I asked you these two years ago. The first time you were on the podcast. And if you guys haven't listened to my first episode with Stella, definitely go listen. I mean, it's so old now. I feel like we were babies when we recorded it, even though it was not that long ago. I will link it below in the show notes for you all. I have changed a couple of the rapid fires. So the first one is what is your favorite fruit? Oh, banana, I guess. What is your son's sign? Virgo. Yes, it is. I'm a Virgo rising. Maybe that's why we get along so well. Yeah. And there are a lot of other reasons too. Yes, a lot of other reasons aside from astrology. What is one book that changed your life that you'd recommend to everyone? Well, you recommended it to me and the surrender experiment. And I got to find my little finger. So those two were great. You did so good. You did. They really helped me during a time where I needed a lot of guidance and to surrender. So yeah, fantastic book. So good. I love Michael Singer. That is one habit or ritual that you do every day. That's a non-negotiable for you. Drink water. Literally try to stay hydrated. That's a good one. Honestly, no one has said that yet. That's a really, I mean, we all need to stay hydrated. So thank you for saying that. I do it every day. Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. That's so funny. Well, this podcast is called Loving Wellness, which is a little different from the last time you came on. So what does loving wellness mean to you? I think it means having an open loving heart and leading your life from a place of love and an openness and kindness. And there's a lot to be said around staying energetically open and approaching things in life from a place of love. I think it's just, it's really important. And it contributes to our wellness and our well-being in like a very holistic way. So loving wellness to me means just staying open and staying connected to yourself and to others. Beautifully said. And I feel like this whole conversation was so beautiful and so fun. And I hope you all got something out of it. I am so excited to have had you back on the show Stella. And this was just so fun. I feel like just a fun excuse to just talk to you in real time. Which we don't get to do as often. It was like our real life podcast and it was a lot of pleasure. So thank you so much for having me again. This was so fun and excited to get back into our regular cadence of the 21st weeks every week. We haven't done that for a week or so because we knew we would be talking this week. So we'll get right back to it. I'm sure. But I love you. I love you all. Thank you for listening. Thank you so much for creating the space for this kind of conversation. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard and you want to continue to follow along, make sure to like, rate, review and subscribe to this podcast on which ever listening platform you prefer. If you want to stay plugged into Everyday Endorphins outside of the podcast, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok and you can also drop your email to subscribe to my newsletter. It's the Everyday Endorphins. orphaned sub-stack where I talk about the interviews that I've done that month, any events happening in New York that I've hosted, and just a stream of consciousness of my thoughts. Thanks again for tuning in and reminder to keep spreading in Dorfins and finding the things in life that bring you joy. Until next time.