EP 140: Navigating Dual Enrollment: The HB 8 Texas Rollout

[MUSIC] Dual enrollment. The term isn't new to the higher education sphere, but it has been making weights over the last few years. This just isn't 13th grade. They're actually taking college courses and their college students. We've talked about pathways at the community college level for a long time to make sure that fair is efficient and effective pathways for our students. But this now connects to that high school pathway conversation as well. Dual and enrolled students are becoming one of the fastest growing populations at community colleges. Earlier this year, ACCT launched a new project exploring innovative state strategies for community college funding and dual enrollment in the states of Texas and California. We're actually putting together a task force and that task force is going to examine credential of value in its definition to level one and level two certificates. We're going to play an active part in making recommendations to the legislature. Consultant Amy Ellen Duke-Benfield sits down with leaders from two Texas community colleges who were influential in the rollout of House Bill 8, which aims to increase the number of Texans with credentials of value. This is In the Know with ACCT, the voice of community college leaders. I'm your guest host, Amy Ellen Duke-Benfield, an independent consultant working in the area of post-secondary access and success. And today we're diving into one of the most transformative pieces of legislation in Texas Community College history, House Bill 8, and its impact on what Texas calls dual credit and others call dual enrollment. In the fall of 2024, the Association of Community College Trustees launched a new project exploring innovative strategies for funding community colleges and building dual enrollment pathways. States across the country are in various phases of considering or not similar policy shifts in their states. The project is focusing primarily on Texas' new community college funding formula, HB8, which includes incentives for dual enrollment pathways, which is the topic of this podcast. And also California's dual enrollment pathway initiatives, which we'll talk about in a feature podcast. So we're delighted today to have the opportunity to dig into HB8, which introduced a new dynamic outcomes based funding formula for Texas community colleges, with major implications for dual credit tuition, affordability, and access. I'm joined today by Carol Scott, trustee of Delmar College, and Dr. Brenda Kays, president of Kilgore College. Carol A. Scott was elected to the Delmar College Board of Regents in 2014 and is in her seventh year as chair of the board. She serves on the board of directors for the Association of Community College Trustees as the Western Region Chair. Carol is a past chair of the Community College Association of Texas Trustees. She served two terms on the Corpus Christi Independent School District Board of Trustees, which is especially relevant when we're talking about dual credit. And she's also an accredited public relations professional. Carol works as a public affairs consultant in Texas and a variety of business sectors, including energy, manufacturing, refining, petrochemical, retail, and government. All incredibly relevant areas to community colleges today. We're also joined by Dr. Brenda Kays, who has had a lengthy career as a community college educator in Texas and the North Carolina system. What experience includes as a faculty member, chief student services officer, chief instructional officer, and college president. Before being named president of Kilgore College in 2016, Dr. Kays served as the president of Stanley Community College in North Carolina. She was the first female president of both colleges. She earned her doctorate in applied technology, training, and development from the University of North Texas. She served on the Texas Commission on Community College Finance, which developed the recommendations that led to Texas's HB legislation. That legislation transformed the way community colleges are funded in Texas. Before we jump into a discussion about HB dynamic funding formula and the changes it made to dual credit coursework incentives, I'd love to hear more from our guests about the institutions they're affiliated with. Carol, could you kick it off by talking a little bit about Delmar? Sure. Delmar College is located in South Texas in the city of Corpus Christi. We cover about a four and a half county service area in South Texas. And in Texas, the service area and the taxing districts do not always equate. So our service area is much larger than our taxing district. We have about 22,000 or so unduplicated headcount students. We talk about that because almost 80% of our students go to school part time and have either family or work or both things that they can to contend with. So we are predominantly a part time community college district. And in current numbers, we probably have about a third of our credit students who are dual credit students right now are dual enrollment students. That's amazing to hear that one third of the student body is comprised of dual credit students. Dr. Kays, tell us a little bit about Kilgore. Thank you, Emil. And yes, Kilgore College is located in Kilgore, Texas. Our service area does cover four different counties, 20 ISDs. We're in East Texas and I often say we're about as far east as you can get without being in the state of Louisiana. We serve approximately 7,000 credit students each year and double that with continuing education students. It was interesting to hear how Carol Scott talked about their growth in dual credit because we've seen that now as well. In fact, right now, 60% of our total student population is made up of dual credit students. Outside of that, we have the normal distribution, about 60% of our students, our female, 40% male, the vast majority of our students are outside of our taxing district, but inside our service area. And we enjoy, of course, the same level of students with part time students that Carol Scott actually talked about. Well, I'm just really impressed by those numbers. If I could whistle, I'd whistle. To clarify for our listeners who might not be as familiar with some of the terminology we're using a dual credit or enrollment course is a college course taken by a high school student for which the student earns both college and high school credit simultaneously. Dual credit courses are taught by full time or adjunct college faculty members either online at college campuses or at area high schools. Some courses taught at high school campuses may be taught by high school teachers who have comparable credentials and academic preparation as college faculty members. Some may be taught by college faculty members as well. There are three components to HB8 that I want to highlight for our listeners before we dig in. First, HB8's dynamic outcomes face funding formula. Second, the creation of a new funding stream to support free dual credit for economically disadvantaged students. And third, the component of the funding formula that rewards colleges for each student who achieves 15 credit hours through dual credit. HB8, which was passed in 2023 and implemented shortly after that, primarily established a new set of funding formulas, changing how Texas provides community colleges with state dollars. The old formulas prioritized enrollment, awarding state funds based on the number of hours and types of courses students take that tends to be the norm across the country, though things are changing. Through the work of the Texas Commission on Community College financing, the state decided to overhaul this enrollment based system to more directly align community college funding to student completion of a post secondary credential of value that has proven payoff in the workforce. The formula and HB8 provides extra funding for providing credentials of value and high demand fields. It also includes weights to reflect the challenge of getting particular student types, including economically and academically disadvantaged students and adults to the finish line. It's the kind of folks that it sounds like are being served at Delmar and at Kilgore. Fast or financial aid for Swift Transfer put dual credit pathways within reach for tens of thousands of more students by banking dual credit courses free for low income students and capping the costs for all other students. Previously dual credit cost varied widely across the state, which some larger school districts with strong tax bases charging nothing while others charged up to $99. Now fast ensures that students who received free and reduced price lunch in any of the previous four years or the current year have access to free dual credit classes, including books, materials, fees, and access to a laptop and hotspot. We know those are essential. The state reimburses colleges at $58.52 per semester credit hour for low-income students and dual credit. Dual credit costs for other students are capital to reasonable, again, $58.52 per credit hour, bringing the price down considerably for other students. As I understand it, and maybe our guests can talk a little bit about this, I know some districts and colleges are even offering all students free dual credit as well. The financial aid program fast is optional, but only a handful of colleges aren't participating. When the state legislature passed HB8, it also provided $78.6 million in new money in the first by-and-am to cover the cost for fast while making an entitlement and ensuring the per credit hour rate rises with inflation. The third component that we're going to talk about, and it's really not this complicated, but I want to get all this complicated stuff out of the way first, so we can dig into a good conversation about this, is that the state didn't only provide a no-to-low cost avenue for students to earn dual credit, but also rewards colleges for each student who achieves 15 dual credit hours by graduation. We don't know of any other policy like this in the country. The new formula provides $1,700 per student for the number of students who earn at least 15 credit hours through academic and workforce dual credit programs. The hours must be in a coherent sequence, meaning they must align with the requirements of either an academic program, leading to a degree, or workforce program, leading to another type of credential. It also allows colleges to earn even more funding if students achieve credentials of value. So let's take a step back to the development of the Community College Finance Commission. I know you're both on the commission, and I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the commission and what you felt like were the most important components of the commission's work and recommendations. So prior to the 2021 legislative session, the Community College funding formula for in Texas, the state portion of that funding had been stagnant for several years. There were some minor adjustments here and there, but our contact hour funding we constantly fought for full funding based on the formula. And there was no recognition of the work that it took to educate different profiles of students based on economic disadvantage or educational disadvantage or even potentially adult learners. So the state had been very volatile up and down into whether they would fully fund the contact hour funding or not. At the same time, there was a growing conversation amongst some of the conservative leadership in Texas about outcomes based funding. And a portion, a very small portion, about 10% of our funding was based on what was then called student success points. So we had dipped our toe in the performance based funding. And there was a desire amongst leadership to move more fully in that direction. And we felt like as a Community College sector that we had to wrap our arms around this and had to go in with it wholeheartedly and as active partners in this conversation. And so the combined trustee and CEO president's organization went to the legislature and asked for this commission to be formed to study it so that it wouldn't just be in the realm of a legislative interim committee, for example, but would be include include the private sector include lay folks, include faculty, trustees, college CEOs, and most importantly, legislatures. So we asked for the commission to be formed and included in that bill and that formation were two senators and two house members who were it was very instrumental in their their learning, their feedback on what the legislature might might have an appetite for. And then most importantly for them to have the background and the understanding of how ideas were developed and some of these concepts were developed and the senator and House member who were most active on the commission ended up carrying the House and Senate pieces of legislation that enacted the commission's recommendations. I Carol, I think you covered it very well in terms of the impetus. We knew that we could not continue to be sustained by the old formula, basically each biennium. There was a pot of money that was dedicated by the legislature and then it was divvied up based on the number of contact hours that an institution had. The interesting thing about the old formula was that one college could have grown, but if another college grew more, there was a good possibility that that first college that had experienced growth would actually receive less money. And so that didn't make a lot of sense. The new funding formula is much more tuned in terms of each of the colleges being able to have their own destiny determined by the work that they do among the pillars of the funding formula itself. In terms of context, Amy Ellen, some of our friends across the nation might have different funding models. So I think it's important that we recognize in the state of Texas the three primary legs of the stool. Edvilarum taxes locally, obviously tuition and student charges and then the state funding formulas. We do receive grants and obviously Pell grants that feed into the tuition side of that formula. But for the primary purposes, the three legs of stool are Edvilarum taxes, state funding and tuition and student charges. But across the 50 community college districts in Texas, they're dependent upon any one of those three levels of funding is drastically different. We have one college in the state that has the lowest Edvilarum tax rates, almost negligible. But they are a huge feeder school into one of our flagship universities. And so their tuition leg of the stool is a much more robust part of their funding formula. And they receive state funding as well. We have other smaller colleges, especially the rural colleges, who might not have a tax base. So they feel like they're taxing their local taxpayers, both business and residential as much as they can and are much more heavily reliant from a percentage standpoint on state funding than on other legs of the stool. So there really were again amongst the 50 colleges, just great discrepancy and across the spectrum of those three funding buckets. I appreciate that clarification because I do think an important part of what Texas had to wrestle with was the wide variety of taxing bases, different geographic areas, we're experiencing across the state. And I've also heard you know the challenge for some of the rural districts. And I can imagine Dr. Kays that that is something that Kilgore had also had to face, given your location out in East Texas. And then I would and then I'm also curious then given that disparity, did that also then have an influence on how colleges were deciding to charge for dual credit at that time, whether or not they were charging if they were charging a lot. And that sort of thing. Absolutely. I think you saw differences all across the state. Some of the colleges were able to provide free dual credit for all students. Some colleges actually charged full tuition rate for dual credit students. And other colleges like Kilgore College, we gave a percentage discount. So our dual credit students received a 40% discount on tuition and fees. And then they transferred to Kilgore College after being a dual credit student that 40% discount carried over into their enrollment that further their experience with the college itself. But I think that one of the things I would like to go back and visit is what Carol was talking about just the wide disparity across the state. And I think that that's an important part of the new funding model. There are two tiers associated with it. There's a base tier and there is a performance tier. And the performance tier that actually has to do with outcomes based how successful our students being. But the base tier was put in place to, for lack of a bit of words, level the playing field across the state and actually to make up for those colleges that have a small tax base or in a rural area. And I think that that's another reason why this funding formula has really changed the shape of community College education across the state because of the fact that it's given everybody the opportunity to do everything that they possibly can for all of their missions, but specifically for the dual credit mission. That's an important point. And I think as we talk about the desire of Texas to let's say open the doors wider for more students to pursue dual credit or dual enrollment, that that's an interesting policy choice because I think when most people think of dual credit or dual enrollment, they think of what some call programs of privilege, where the most academically prepared and well-resourced kids who are already college bound take that second year of calculus or for concurrent high school and college credit. Other approaches include what folks call. I know that the Community College Research Center at Columbia University has sent a lot of research on this around random acts of dual enrollment. I think they call it where students take a couple of college level courses and then end up with excess credits unrelated to their college or pre-rolls when they get to college. But by making dual credit courses free and embedding them in college and career pathways, which I know we're going to talk a little bit more about, it seems like colleges and school districts in Texas are really opening access to who receives dual credit coursework. They're changing how it's delivered, stacking courses into pathways, leading to credentials and careers, contributing to the state's economic competitiveness. So exactly those clients that Carol has in petrochemical and refining and those areas of the labor market, where folks are looking for more folks to fill those middle-skill jobs. And so I really think it's so important to think about dual credit as an access policy, but also economic development. And we know that students who earn, students who take dual credit earn better grades and are more likely to graduate from high school and enrolling college. And so it gets students used to success in their lives. So I'd love to hear from both of you, you know, from both your perspectives, why you feel like dual credit is an important strategy. Dual credit is essential because it is an on-ramp into the college. Our dual credit, for example, we saw a 34% increase from where we were before with enrollment prior to HBA to after HBA. Of that 34% increase, 47% actually was around career and technical education or our workforce students. And 25% was academic students. So what that's telling me is that students now because of the either free or the reduced level of tuition, more students are participating. And so that means that we're getting more students into the pipeline and whether they take an academic transfer pathway to go on to the four-year institution or whether they're taking a career in technical education pathway to go straight into the workforce. It's all about workforce development. And truthfully, that was one of the motivators behind HBA because of the fact that we saw a shortage of qualified workers for our incumbent business and industry. And then we've had quite an influx of new business and industry joining the state. So it was critical that we have a workforce. And that's what dual credit is doing. It is really serving as an on-ramp to that workforce development. Emil and I'm going to tack onto that and kind of plug in the ISD perspective. There was work that was done in Texas a couple of sessions prior around the alignment of the Texas Public Education System into pathways. And there's now a college career and military preparedness assessment and documentation that has to occur at the high school level. So we've talked about pathways at the community college level for a long time to make sure that there is efficient and effective pathways for our students. So that's another reason why I think dual credit is so important because those students are hearing this similar kind of language at their high schools and have counselors who can help route them into good dual credit or dual enrollment programs that will either they'll either complete while they're in high school or be well on their way. And then again have a more cost effective and efficient route to a degree or certificate when they do come to our colleges. So this conversation around a college career and military readiness and preparedness has been has been around Texas for probably a good a good decade now. Yeah it's great it's always great to hear about that alignment between school districts and community colleges that's music to my ears. How do you all feel like the changes to dual credit tuition or no tuition and the incentives in HB8 that have affected students' ability to access to a credit? I really believe that it has provided so much more access than what existed before with the old funding model. And we keep on hearing from superintendents who want to take full advantage of this new funding model in order to help their students receive as much college credit as they possibly can while they're still in high school. We've talked a lot about the idea of the 15 semester credit hours and that's because it's tied to a pillar of the funding model. But truthfully many of the superintendents that I work with they want to go beyond that 15 semester credit hours. In fact we have students who are now graduating with their associates degree before they graduate from high school. And I think that if you talk to superintendents across our service area they would say ultimately that was the goal. Now can all students achieve that? Maybe not. But at least that option is available to them and if they're not able to do that they would be able to finish up whatever credits that they still had left by transferring then over to our community colleges and completing certificates degrees whatever their in goal was. I think it's important to note that the fast funding is a separate pot of money from the House Bill 8 performance measures. And so so when we talk about those two it really is two separate pots of money and in the school districts are indeed taking advantage of it. We had discussions at the commission level about the access to dual credit and how how that was concentrated geographically around community college campuses. The great desire to move that to opportunities to other school districts. And so this provides that funding mechanism outside of our taxing districts because you don't have to be in a community college taxing district to receive this fast funding. So that's one of the biggest pieces of this expansion is truly around the fast funding. And then community colleges also then get some outcomes based funding after those 15 credit hours. We also then have a direct connection with those students and can help them matriculate to our colleges to either finish an associate's degree or whatever career or technical program they might have and then help and of course help counsel them on to further higher education if that's their goals. What we've seen at Delmar College in the in the biennium or excuse me the calendar year in which the fast all those commission recommendations were adopted. We had right at 6,000 dual credit students and our estimate for for this next coming academic year we're running around 7,300 so we've seen some big jumps in just two years. So I'm curious about this incentive for high school students to earn 15 college credits and how that might have changed the way the institution delivers dual credit. Fast funding really has more to do with how we deliver than the 15 credit hour performance base. Don't you think Brenda? I think in some ways but basically I believe that with many colleges they've taken a real close look at what value that they can add to students credential wise through a 15 hour pathway and I can definitely tell you that has happened at Kilgar College. I'll use one of our pathways that's my favorite and that's the patient. care technician program. So that is basically a 15 semester credit hours, but within that study of hours, students can actually sit for different certifications. Within patient care technology, they could sit for that certification. There's a philbotomy certification they can sit for as well as EKG and then they also have what they need to sit for a CNA exam. And so you think about the different things that are wrapped up in that and giving students a head start. Now, I sincerely want each and every one of those students to eventually show up here at one of our instructional locations to further their education and training. Hopefully we're producing associate degree nurses from that PCT certificate patient care technician. But it also is going to provide them the wherewithal to go out and to get a job because of the credentials that they earned while they were still in high school. And we're seeing great success in terms of the students who are taking the certification exams for those different types of credentials that will help them as they move forward. That's great. I always loved here about students being able to earn certifications while they're in high school. That's such an important strategy for making sure that folks are college and career ready. Have there been any operational changes in the college, such as hiring more instructors and academic advisors or support staff to meet this increased demand or align with the new requirements. Yes, yes, and yes, and there's there's no basically way that we could be doing what we're doing with dual credit without a little bit of restructuring as well as some major investments. So we now see dual credit as being its own pillar at the organization prior to this. It had actually been umbrella under instructional services. But we have because of the demand made that almost a stand alone type of division and we have hired the staff that we need in order to be out with the ISDs that we serve and taking care of their dual credit needs. In addition to that, we have hired more full-time faculty, more adjunct faculty. We are looking very closely at the credentials that the high school faculty have. And sometimes we are able to, based on their credentials, actually hire them to serve as adjuncts for us. But we also need to make sure that our services in place. Yes, the students are still in high school, but they're also college students. And that means that they have access to all of the services that we offer at the college. So that means that we have additional advisors that we've hired. We're trying to make sure that any of the services that we offer that the students are aware of those services and can participate in those programs. I think that one of the interesting things has been with this transition, more and more students are recognizing the fact that this just isn't 13th grade that they're actually taking college courses and their college students. So those have been some of our changes, but I know Carol, you've probably seen quite a few yourself. So I think one thing that's important for trustees to think about in listening to this conversation across the nation is that the resources are going to change. But we have now a dedicated contract individual who works directly with superintendents in the outlying areas, folks that weren't traditionally part of our dual enrollment program in the past and has been working with those superintendents and executive staff and different ISDs to help bring them on board for what we call our off campus programs. So there's been a lot of work in that area to establish those relationships. And because we're not having to having to articulate individual agreements with different school districts. And this one might want to negotiate this and this one might want to negotiate that there's kind of a standard now level set amongst the service areas because the state is paying for this. And the piece of work has gone away, but this cultivation work with districts that we haven't, haven't ever communicated with before at this level has changed. We upgrade to some of our staff. We now have a vice president and division that's over dual enrollment continuing education and off campus programs. And there has been a shifting as Brenda said in that concentration as well because trying to hire credential, make sure that you have the instructors with the right credentials for dual for college level coursework is going to change from district to district. And whether or not that's an as you mentioned earlier in the podcast, whether that's a hybrid program and on campus program or something that's happening at the high school. And there's variations of that of those three instructional models as well. So there has been a lot of change that that our staff has gone through. And the resource standpoint and if you look at the organizational chart, you might think, well, why do I need another vice president? This has become an almost an enterprise in and of itself. And you really do need to treat it as such. It is the faculty are going to be managed differently in a dual enrollment kind of setting than they are with on campus instruction or even online instruction. And I really do need to think about it from that standpoint. Yeah, that's really helpful to think about it from the business perspective. In terms of, especially when you think about what a what a large proportion of students at the colleges are engaging in dual credit dual enrollment. And and what that means for colleges bottom bottom line going forward and that that funding stream and fast, the reimbursement that the states providing the colleges makes a big difference. And then it also sounds to me like that that incentive payment or of $1,700 can also go then to pay for some of the extra supports you all are talking about as well. And and would love to see this approach spread throughout the country. I think it's kind of like a both and there are some states that have gone, you know, full forward on free dual credit and that's amazing. But I do think some of the special sauce here is around incentivizing it and then tying it to credentials of value. So we do avoid those sort of, you know, lost credits that aren't relevant. to a student and have long-term implications on that student's affordability and ability to pay for college and excess credits and that kind of thing. If I mention Ben, we just one more point to what you were talking about. The Commission recommended in the legislature agreed and put this in the initial bill, that there are weights attached to the performance-based funding. You heard me reference them earlier for academically disadvantaged, economically disadvantaged or adult learners. And so on top of the base funding for performance, you add on those weights that helps recognize the additional work, tutoring and other student support services that may be needed for students who come in with some challenges. Or just need some extra help. So it was very heartening to see the legislature agree that at a community college level because of the breadth of the students that we're dealing with and the breadth of programs that we offer, that there are some understanding that there are students in special population groups that might need a little bit extra help. And so they gave us weighted funding to help accomplish that and to help pay for that extra help. Thanks for underscoring that. As someone who spent a lot of time thinking about what we call today students, we used to call non-traditional students, but they're actually the majority of community college students at this point. It's great to see a state decide that we're going to support that mission of community colleges and really invest in that and invest in those folks so that everyone can benefit from the positives of post-secondary education and training. And get good jobs and contribute to the economic development and well-being of the state. Carol, from a trustees perspective, how has your board been involved in navigating this transition under HBA and what kind of questions are you asking to ensure accountability and alignment with the with the institutions mission. So our board was unique in that we actually had our college CEO and myself both served on the commission. So we would regularly have the discussions at the board table about what the commission was talking about and as the legislation was being drafted and passed a couple of years ago. So our board is pretty well versed in the conversation. Probably the most difficult conversation has resulted in the last couple of weeks. The legislature had a cleanup bill in their most recent session that finished in early June. They funded our supplemental request because we outperformed the initial projections. So we were the as a sector, we were very happy that they funded the supplemental budget request as well as fully funded the formula for the next biennium. They did make some changes and tightened up the definition of credentials of value. And so that's probably where most of our conversation recently has been to talk about the credential of value calculations. They attached a five year ROI to the credentials of value. So there's some consternation about some associate's degrees don't meet that financial ROI and yet that it's an associate's degree. So there's some problems there and we can talk a little when digging to that more if you want to. So we've had a lot of conversation around that. The other change that occurred this legislative session, which is very positive, is the ability to include transfers to private or independent universities in Texas. Previously, it was only considered a general academic institution and in state law that was described as public universities. But we have some really fine private institutions in Texas and our transfer of our students to those private universities didn't count in the first biennium. They will now count in this going forward. So that was positive. But the credentials of value pieces where we're digging a little bit more and seeing if we can work with the coordinating board and the future legislative agenda around the definition of credentials of value. Yeah, that's an excellent point. I'd love to hear Dr. Kase take on that. I think it's also really interesting when we're talking about dual credit dual enrollment pathways and pathways to what and credentials for what and ensuring I know it's not all about money, right? But and for instance, some of our very essential occupations like teachers and human service professionals, social workers maybe aren't paid as much as their worth to society. And so that's you know, that's always a challenge when it's solely based on on economics. But it seems like over time with this new legislation, their real teeth now in the bill or in the law around what is going to pay off for students in the labor market. How do you see that, Dr. Kase? Definitely. As Carol mentioned, we did have some work that we did around credentials of value. Now, I think it's important that everybody understand that this is a dynamic model and it was meant to be a dynamic model. We knew that there would be changes as the model actually matured over time. We knew that based on the outcomes that were being achieved that there could be other outcomes added when we were actually sitting as part of the commission for community college finance. There were a lot of people from a lot of different organizations, both in Texas as well as across the United States that came forward with recommendations for the commission to consider. In terms of we believe, for example, there was a group that thought that placement should be actually a funding pillar or a funding outcome. Now, at this point in time, it is not, but that is something that could definitely occur as we move forward. So when the actual funding model was launched, it was launched with broader definitions of credentials of value. But what happened is the legislature as well as the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board saw that there was an adjustment that needed to be made around that to make sure that we had a meaningful definition of credentials of value. That happened during this session with regards to our associate degrees. And so the idea was, as Carol mentioned, five years for that return on investment, but there was also a wage threshold that was set at $30,000. And that was a state average wage for different positions across the state as a whole. And that was, I think, the start of what we're going to continue to look at. Now, just because there was a degree that was not deemed to be credential of value, that doesn't mean that it's always going to not be on the list. Because once again, as that measurement is taken, that will mean that degrees may fall off the list of credential of value degrees may come back on credentials of value. And so it really is dynamic. And the idea and Carol alluded to this, that we understand what that formula looks like. And we're able to actually do some predictive analytics is what will help each of the colleges to really do some planning around different things that they're doing at their individual colleges. We started credential of value work with degrees. And some of our community college sister community colleges, they did see some impact if they did not have students that were completing the deemed credential of value. Maybe they had students that were in programs that were not. That doesn't mean that they can't offer those courses to their students or those programs to their students. That is a college by college decision on whether or not that's something that we still want to offer. What I think is going to, well, I don't even have to say what I think what I know is going to happen. In preparation for the next legislative session, our Texas Association of Community Colleges, that's our CEO group, we're actually putting together a task force. And that task force is going to examine credential of value in its definition to level one and level two certificates, as well as occupational skills awards and some of those industry recognized credentials to see what that threshold needs to look like for those programs. And this way, we're going to play an active part in making then recommendations to the legislature the next time that they open for session, which will be approximately two years. So it'll be here before we know it. But that's important work, because truthfully, I don't think there's any community college educator out there. I'm just going to say any educator out there who doesn't want a student to be as successful as they possibly can be. But it always comes back to being key is helping students make informed decisions. And I think that that is such an important component. Carol was talking a little bit about what's happening in pre K through 12. And the idea that as students are entering into the eighth grade, that they select an endorsement. And that's also where Kilgar College is stepping in and working with those students to help them in understanding, okay, this is something that you're interested in. Let's talk a little bit about what kind of job does this lead to? How many job openings are available for that credential? What is the average wage for that credential? That doesn't mean that it's not of other value. It just may not be deemed as a credential of value. So there may not be any extra dollars coming to the college. But I think that we all recognize that there are things that are students are interested in that they want to pursue. We'd love for them all to be earning over $100,000. But that's not realistic. Nor is it basically a student getting to make a selection of what matters to them. And I still think that that is something that I really like about what our Commissioner of Higher Education has said. And that's helped them to make informed choices. And it's the same thing as they go through our programs, helping them to make informed choices about transfer, where they're going to go, what does that look like in terms of tuition assistance that's available to them. And so I think that you talked about impacts. That is definitely one of the impacts. Our advisors are now being much more intrusive than probably what they've ever been just to make sure that students are making good choices. Yeah, that's essential, especially when we're talking about eighth graders exposing middle schoolers to all the different career options out there that exist. That's a valuable or an essential component in so many ways to a desire to expand access to dual credit and ensure that those pathways are leading to meaningful profession with good family supporting wages. Well, it has been a pleasure talking to both of you today. I really appreciate you sharing your insights. And as we're hearing in the here and now, the implementation of HBA is still unfolding, but it's clear it's already making dramatic waves across the state and your leadership of both of you as trustees, president will be keen in ensuring that those waves move in direction of greater access and opportunity. For more conversations like this, please stay tuned for future episodes of In the Know. And we'll look forward to further conversations about dual credit and dual enrollment in the future.