Ep 14 - Marnie Seinor | How carefully crafted price conversations get properties sold

[Music] You're listening to the elephant in the room property podcast, with the big things that never get talked about, actually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent, buyers agent and co-host of Foxill's Location Location Location Australia. And I'm Chris Bates, financial planner, Morgan's broker and wealth coach. And together we're going to uncover who's really making the decisions when you buy a property. In a moment Veronica will introduce our guests. And I can tell you, you want to listen on to find out what she has to say about the conversation she has with vendors about products. Every agent works differently and every agent doesn't, you know, do what they're supposed to do and don't quote what's on the agency agreement and don't have the, so that's where the frustration lies with the buyers. Then stick around for this week's elephant writer bouquet. And we have a cracking, dumber of the week coming up. [Music] Before we get started, everything we talk about on this podcast is generally nature and should never be considered to be personal financial advice. If you're looking to get advice, please seek the help of a licensed financial advisor or buyer's agent. They will tailor and document their advice to your personal circumstances. Now let's get cracking. This week we're picking the brains of Marnie Senior, sales agent at McGraw-Cougey. Now Marnie's real estate career has spanned over 20 years and she specialises in the less glamorous end of the eastern suburbs property market. And I mean that with all due respect. We're talking the south eastern suburbs, Maruba, Matriville, mascot, botany and little bay. Marnie's a high performer and she's won a few awards in a time and was recently awarded the 10th top female sales agent in Australia. So well done on that. Thank you. We figure that she's going to have a lot of experience better share with us as a consequence. Now Marnie's been with McGraw now for over seven years and it must be an interesting time there with the well publicised board changes and management changes. I'm not sure how much she can say about that, but we'd love to get some insights if possible through our conversation. No pressure for the moment. However, welcome Marnie. Thank you. Thank you for having me here today. Welcome Marnie. Thanks for giving us your time. I really appreciate you being here. We talk about the whole elephant in the room is all around understanding that our emotions is really what drives us. And we think we're the right in the elephant. We think we're in control. But it's really our emotions. You talk about just some of the experience through all your years about buyers and their emotions and how they affect their decisions. Absolutely. And as agents, it's something that we have to read in a buyer. So a buyer will come to the property to the open home inspection and they try and refrain from giving us too much information about themselves at first. Second inspection when they start bringing family members through and start showing us that they are interested. That's something as an agent we need to read and we need to read the buyer's emotions. I find once we get the buyer in that emotional state, whether that be at on auction day or prior to auction, is when we can get the best result out of the buyer. So at the moment in a changing market, I'm finding that I am closing probably 80% of deals prior to auction. Because I find that as soon as I have that buyer in the emotional state and they are focused on my listing and that property, I need to get an offer from them at that stage. Oh, I love that you've said that, Marnie, because as a buyer's agent, we see that happening and we call it manufacturing offers. Yes. Because at the end of the day, when it's a hot market, you know it's going to sell it auction, you've got loads of people lining up, they're all fighting for it. It's much easier for an agent to go to auction, right? Absolutely. Whereas when it's a market, a transitional market, or more of a normal market where every property's got at least one buyer but usually one stronger buyer than anyone else. So what you're saying is that as an agent, you identify when you identify that buyer, then you kick into a strategy for getting an offer. Would that be right? Absolutely. How do you do that? Absolutely. Because if we don't get that buyer in that emotional time and they're focused on that property, we find that we're in today's market. We're missing that opportunity and we are then not selling the property. Because they're going to another property. That's right. For some reason. Yeah. I mean, so if I'm the emotional buyer, I'm thinking, I like this place. I've come with my family. How do you get me to, I guess, encourage me to put my hand in my pocket and make an offer? Yeah, of course. And I find the buyers that are emotional state like that and they knowing they want that property. They're highly likely missed out on something recently. Yeah. So in that situation, I find that it is easier to get an offer out of them if they've just missed out on another property. So she's having a strong communication with the buyer. So I'm finding when we identify the buyer and they've been through the property, sometimes it might be just a one-off inspection. But we can read when they're emotional. They've missed out by their dialogue and conversation we're having with them. So when I'm speaking to that buyer and they've missed out on something, I do ask what address that property is. And at that time, the buyer doesn't realize why we're asking that. But then I can identify the price range where they've actually missed out, see if the property was renovated, un-renovated, how it compares to my property, and work out where they're in the right price range at that time as well. And also, obviously it gives you anchor points to have conversation with them. Absolutely. And the terms of framing up where yours is hopefully better. Yeah, and I do, we do. We're spending our eye of all the way spent time with my buyers anyway. So even though it's a changing market. So I do have strong relationships with my buyers. So when I do identify that and we have comparable sales around, we've already had conversation around price. I say, well, why don't you give me an offer above or around a figure? And it's generally because we've spoken around a figure anyway. It's within that price range, I know by that stage where my vendors add as well. So I know we're not time-wasting. I know I'm not quoting one five in the vendor, once one seven. So it's all quite direct conversation around price. So when they do make that offer, we're not mucking around with them. One of the things you spoke about there is, the Hay-R-Buy is called Opportunity Cost and Neglect. So it kind of plays into another one called Losser Version. So when someone has gone to a property, got so close, their hearts, they're already maybe the furniture they're going to go into that property and they've lost it. It's quite a painful experience. Absolutely. What they would be feeling at that point is, I need to get something else because otherwise I've missed the opportunity and the market could move. And so it is a very emotional time. Yes. Is that kind of one of the reasons why you asked that question of sometimes what they've missed out on and to actually kind of help them to solve that pain? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And then try and talk them through how they'll see themselves in this property and this property is a better property and it's got X, Y and Z and just see the time, talk them into that property, seeing themselves living in that property forever. And don't miss that opportunity. No, and look, this is interesting too. Okay, so I think there's a fine line between influencing a manipulation. Absolutely. And we will talk about that. We'll ask you a bit about that. But in this instance, we're talking about a buyer that actually wants to be sold to. That's what it sounds like, doesn't it? Yes. So they actually want to be influenced. And so they're like, you know, they're open, open. They're open. Yes. Yeah. And so this is how you work that buyer. What do you think about the difference between influencing manipulation? Yeah, interesting. Because I feel I don't manipulate. I think it's, yeah, it is manipulation. I find the buyers I'm dealing with, they are hard to manipulate. But what I feel is, if I know the product I'm selling and I know what is else on the market in comparison to that product, then I will push my property around where the value of price in comparison to all those products that are in comparison to the one I'm selling. So it's trying to manipulate them as such as in that my property is better value, position in your position, my property better than the others. So as you're manipulating them personally, it's, yeah, it's not, you know, I don't find that. I'm just trying to do the best thing by the property I'm selling for my vendor. And it's interesting that you also mention that you're the buyers, you're dealing with aren't easily manipulated as well. Because, you know, there is sophisticated, we're talking the essence of Sydney. In fact, any, any, yes, area within sort of 10, 15 K radius of Sydney, typically got you sort of, you're very educated, you know, sophisticated buyer. So it would be difficult to manipulate. I imagine that you're coming across other agents that still go down that path of China manipulate. Yeah, and they do try, yeah, they do. And they try and talk our properties down. Yeah. And try and, you know, persuade them to that property. I wouldn't say talking down with actually facts or maybe facts or things that are only there. Marnie's quoting X, but she wants Y or, you know, you know, for me, I think because I'm really fortunate, I have been in the industry for a long time. I do have quite a good reputation around pricing my properties. And I know the product and I know my comparable sales and I've got the facts and figures. So it's there in black and white. It's a very direct conversation with the buyer. And I give them at all of that as well. So it's not that I'm hiding anything. If there's anything wrong with the property, we would tell the buyers. We're very direct around that. Any special levy coming up, I will tell the buyers. I find that if you're honest and direct with the buyer and they're not finding anything out after the conversation that we haven't given them, then they're very honest and direct with making offers around where they feel comfortable with their with the value. Yeah. Are you spoke about there is the first buyer was around someone who's a bit emotionally charged. Yes. the other option is the one that sits back across the nation. I'm not going to give anything. I'm going to let this drag out and not tell you anything. I mean, how do you wake up that elephant that's just sitting there not willing to do anything? What sort of thing do you do? They're definitely frustrating buyers at some time and dealing with them and sometimes buyers like that. It takes for them to miss out on an opportunity from being secret and cagey that then they'll realise, "Well, this is not the way to do business." I am always saying to buyers, even if they're not buying one of my properties, be honest to the agent. Because if you're not honest and they don't know you're interested and they're selling a property prior, then you're not going to get a phone call. You're going to miss an opportunity. So when I'm doing my callbacks, I'm spending a lot of time on callbacks. We're not rushing callbacks. If I have left a message, I will read all of them that evening. Just to step in for listeners, a callback is Monday morning basically. It starts. That's when the agents and their assistants get on the phone, start calling everybody that came through the open houses on the weekends. You will see in a slower market as we're experiencing now many more callbacks are made. Yes, we're chasing. Absolutely. I've always spent a lot of time and input importance in the callbacks and my buyers. In my team, I'm structured that I will do first round callbacks. Obviously, we're adding notes to the database around the buyers. If they're odd buyers, they're tagged as a hop buy. They're a hop buy with a property at a cell. They're tagged as that. We find I've also then got Liz who works with me as more of a so shit agent as well. I will make sure I do first round callbacks. If I've left a message, I will do them again. From there, Liz will do 10 day callbacks, or 10 days from inspection. Buyers that are hot and ready to buy, we will be calling them on a weekly basis about new listings and it may not be a McGraw listing and maybe a listing with another agent. It's potentially talked that one down and so look at the entity and buy some one time. No, not at all. Just to build the relationship with the buyer as well because then they'll be a future client for us. Not to talk the other property down, but just to help the buyer as much as we can. We're often bidding for clients. We're helping them buy other properties because for me, that's the future of my business and they'll come back to me in 10 years time when they're ready to sell that property. That is something that certainly is a long term focus isn't it? You can't be just worried about this transaction, this listing, this sale, if you are thinking about helping a buyer who doesn't actually have something to sell. That's right. To into a property with another agent, that's a very, very long term focus. Absolutely. You mentioned around hot buyers and do you guys have a list of who your hot buyers are and then do you have maybe a coal buyer or just an average partner on the street or a waste of time or a dream? Absolutely. They're tagging the databases all of that. Because we're using the new system home pass that most of the McGraw agents are using. If a buyer comes through the property and they've come through my property in the South East, but they've also been through another property in Bronte or Bondi, I can see their history. So yeah, beware. Because then we like, okay, well, is this buyer an investor? They could be an investor. That's fine. We will also assist them and help in buying, but this, some buyers just go around looking at properties on Saturday. Oh, which one loves real estate. There's a lot to happen who do that on a Saturday. People do that on a Saturday. So we know who those buyers are. Yeah. So you've got the GPS tracker on their might. Absolutely. And you can see them popping around the serial offenders. Yes. It happens in financial advice. It happens in mortgage breaking. It happens in lots of industries. Yes. If you walk into a mortgage broker and say, look, I'm thinking about buying a property, most mortgage broker would say that's a great idea. And you should go and do it because it's always a good time to buy. I think in real estate, it's also similar. If you go into a vendor and they say, look, is it a good time to sell? You're going to potentially always say, yes, it's a great time to sell. And then on the other side of the coin, when the buyer's walking and they say, is it a good time to buy, you know, you've got to say it's a good time to buy. How do you think that really plays out in the real estate world? Because that's a bit of a myth that happens, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Yeah. It does happen like all of that happens. Obviously, we're trying to get a listing. So we want it now and we want to get it on the market now. With that, it's all relevant to each other. So if you're buying and selling the same market, it's all relevant. It's about the change over cost and, you know, if you're holding it for longer periods of time, it's only relevant to the where the market is sitting if it's for an investment or mainly really for an investment, to be honest. So if a buyer's thinking of buying and selling in the same market, do it now. Do it when you're ready. Sometimes we meet vendors that are thinking about doing in the next six months, well, my conversation dialogue around that is, do it now, whether market is still okay. We don't know where the market's heading in the next six months. We don't know where interest rates are going to be in the next six, 12 months. So do it now and do it when you're actually ready to move. Yeah. And then again, even investor or a really good client of mine, I mean, I'm forever getting calls. I'm looking to invest. I'm looking to buy property in my super fund or I'm looking to do this when is a good time to do that. And I am having conversations around that. I think you should wait. I think you should actually wait and see what unfolds in the next six, 12 months. It is actually some seasonality in the Sydney market though. And certainly you're in the beaches. So in particular, someone comes to and says, right, you know, they're coming to you in August for arguments. They're saying that they want to sell and buy and they're wanting advice in terms of the order in which they do that. What are you going to tell them? Yeah, definitely. So if they're coming to me now saying they're going to sell in spring, I, my advice would be sell on the shoulder periods when there's less stock on the market. Always in spring, there is an oversupply a stock. So which is a good time for them to really buy a property. So we will time it. So we're on the shoulder periods. We go before that spring rush. And then they will be cashed up to buy in the spring market. So that would be my advice to somebody like that. I would always sell before you buy, especially in today's market. It's the market is changing. Buies are, you know, finding it really difficult to get finance. And there is less of them that are cashed up ready to go. So. And a few years ago, did you think the opposite? Yeah, absolutely. A few years ago, that people could take that risk because we were always being able to sell property within 30 days. And our average day on market was like 20. And now, you know, it's starting to nearly double that. So it was, you're always knowing that you could always sell a property. And there was always comparable sales around the value of that. And it would then be maybe five to 10% above the most recent comparable sale. And that's what was happening. It was quite scary. So, but you always say for the bottom figure, whereas at the moment that bottom figure is changing. And our comparable sales, the last year to today, you can't use them. It's entirely different. And there is a flood of properties in some particular area. So in Maru, the moment there is a lot of one bedroom apartments. So to sell a one bedroom apartment, I'm not sure to be honest, it's just just how it is at the moment. And same with the Mayery, Matt Treville, there's a lot of free standing houses. So when there's choice buyers have more to look at, they're getting more fussy, then we're getting more picky. And they're far and few in between. It's getting a bit. How do you then, if there's a lot on the marketing in particular segment? Because I do know that what happens is that you might find, like you said, there's one bedroom apartments on the market and there might be a scarcity of twos and threes. And so a buyer on that segment might find it really competitive. And so buyers don't really understand. They see this sort of inconsistency across the market. They don't know how to read it. Or likewise with your free standing house versus maybe a townhouse or something like that, or renovated house versus unrenovated. And it moves. So it might be that this month, you've got a lot of three bedroom houses. And then next month, there's none. And so there's enormous amount of luck and riding that way. Absolutely. So how do you then influence a buyer or get action out of the buyer in a situation where you're trying to sell something of which there is a lot of other stock? Yeah, that's most of my stock right now. It's really, really tough. So but what we're doing is we're acting quicker on everything. So if a buyer's interested, we'll have them a contract within five minutes. We're communicating. We're communicating with them. We're giving them comparable sales. We're doing a lot of private inspections. Buyers are timepots. So we need to make the process as smooth and as easy for them as possible. So and lots of communication. So when we are doing that and we're getting back to buyers, answering their questions, giving them contracts, making the process smooth. And as simple as we can, we're find we're getting offers out of them. A lot of agents don't return calls. A lot of agents will not do a private inspection. A lot of agents will get a wrong contract or something to them. So it actually puts the buyer off. Yes. And it makes it tricky for them. Yeah, you mentioned there around a lot of your stock was that. Yes. You know, one of the things I know Veronica would have to do with as a as a conflict of interest, I guess is you know, if she's got two buyers trying to buy the same brief, it's very difficult for her to say, well, I'm going to give it to Mary or I'm going to give it to you know, Amy because Amy is my first customer. So there's always you've got to give it to Mary first and then she's going to have to offer it to Amy after that's right. Yeah. How does it work from a real estate agent's point of view? If you've got your selling five one-beard and my apartment's in Maruba, do you try to sell the best one first? Or do you sell the worst one first? How do you do it? - I just saw whatever I can get a buyer on whatever property at the moment. - Right. - So whatever they're showing more interest in, is that part? - Yeah, and I will sell that for the, yeah. Whatever they're showing more interest in, I can't think I've had ends up parading on the market for longer than I've had voice wrote on the market. Or I just think whatever I can get them on, I need to sell that property at that time. So it's, yeah, I'd love to be able to manipulate what one I sell them. - Yeah. - But, you know, recently I did have a situation of similar to that that I had a property on the market for a long time. It did pass in. The vendor did have bridging finance and he had to sell the property. I had a property in another suburb, different home. But for whatever reason, I had, which I also couldn't sell. By the way, I had a buyer come through, two buyers come through the Saturday and this buyer, in particular, had been through both of these homes. So he made an offer on the one that wasn't as urgent. But I had somebody else on that as well. So I had to just take out that thinking, "If I don't sell him this property in East Lakes, then I can sell him the property in Matt Treville." It did actually work out that way, but it wasn't through any manipulation or any. I just had to go, "Okay, well, they both want this property in East Lakes, whoever makes me the highest offer with the best terms for my vendor, bear and transparency on that to both all parties, then take the other buyer to the other property." And it did work out. I sold both of them last week. And well done. That's, obviously, you're doing a good job there in tough circumstances. How much of that second sale, so how much of taking that other buyer to the house where the vendor was under pressure? How much of that is because you have actually developed a relationship with that buyer versus that buyer that really is suited to that property, or that property is really suited to that buyer? I think it does have a lot with the communication. And for us, people have that war lot between agents. Obviously, a lot of people don't like agents and they don't communicate to us as much as they should. But some of them have got reasons for that too. So I found that with that buyer in particular, the minute I took him back to the other property, and I said, "Give me an offer of X, it's gonna buy the property." He did that. And it's because we had a great relationship. He trusted what I was telling him. It all, it was just all came together really easy and quickly. There's a few things that would have helped the buyer that relatively, it's a hard word to say. Yes. They're comparing two different properties. And they're two different of your properties. So you've given them a really easy decision as well. People respond better when there's an easy decision. Yes. And so we're gonna say, yes, if you can see why they're adding offer there. What am I taking the conversation at different directions? Yes. And around kind of personal brand and business brand, obviously you work for Magra, which is a very big brand and you're also working on your own personal brand. What do you think matters more for agents? For me, I work on my personal brand in my area and in my marketplace. I'm fortunate to work alongside with Magra brand, who I feel is strong in my area, but it's more your personal brand, I feel, out there in the marketplace, 'cause it's me that's doing the business and me that's communicating to the buyers. So my personal brand is really important out there in the marketplace. And that's something that I have been working on for the last few years in my area is my personal brand. What do you want your personal brand to kind of be within that market? Like what are you working on, I guess? What do you want to be known at? Yeah, an honest trustworthy agent that, yeah, 'cause I live in the area I work as well. So that's all really important. I've got children, so I want to be an honest agent that is known to do the best thing by their clients. And that's something that I really push that, I mean, even on my social media pages, I've got money senior people, passion property. And that's what it's about. It's about the people and communicating to the people and doing the best I can to my vendors. And to my purchases as well. And inside McGraw at the moment, you know, it's all very public and just in tall poppies syndrome, a lot of it, my personal belief is we want to cut down people who have been successful. And John McGraw from an industry point of view has been the eyes of society has been very successful. Yes. And you know, Shark Tank, et cetera. And as soon as they, you know, Australian seed blood, they'll go for it. Yeah. Which I think's happened. So I'd love to know that society, right? Yes. Behind the scenes at McGraw. Yeah, absolutely. So I've been at McGraw since 2011. I have had John McGraw's one of my mentors throughout that period. And I, I think John is absolutely amazing. He's incredible. He's 10 steps of everyone else in the industry. And I have a lot of respect for him. In my era is really fortunate that when they did float the company, it did not affect me at all. Nothing has affected me in my marketplace, to my vendors, to my future clients. So it has affected a little bit more recent with more different articles heading the news, which is, you know, what John does in his personal life is personal. You know, I feel that they've attacked him and they've put, you know, information out there about him, but it's personal stuff. So, but behind the scenes at McGraw's right now, we have our CEO back, Jeff Lucas. He's amazing. So he's come back on board. We have Adrian Bow, who is also mentoring and training and coaching agents. And John McGraw is around his back. He's very, very hands on at the moment. He's communicating with us. He's talking to us. He's there. So I feel like he's back. At one stage then, there was a board of directors and he was taking a step back and he lost a little bit of, you know, his control and his way. And John has his way on everything. He's very particular. He's very pedantic with his marketing. He's very attention to detail and he's very innovative. He's very innovative and he's incredible. And that's why he is successful. Now, interestingly enough, so he's floated the company. Yes. You've got to lose control when you do that. Yes. So I guess that's something that was inevitable. And now, if I read the subjects here, what you're saying is it needed him to come back and take control again in order to be steering in the right direction. Back to the personal branding, you know, from the outside looking in, well, I'm not really on the outside. I'm well and truly in the industry, but as a buyer, as a buyer looking into, not just McGraw, but the industry as a whole. And we look at this personal branding thing and it's good and bad. Yes. I think you've put forward the good idea of it, being that it's about relationships, about people. It's about you and what you stand for on your personal values. On the flip side of that, the personal brand is very much about that facade, the facade of success. Yes. And I've been, you know, I love listening to these podcasts. I'm watching the videos and blah, blah, blah. And some of it rings true and some of it doesn't. The stuff that does not connect with me, a lot of Rara. And there's a hell of a lot of Rara in real estate land. And what I see in terms of the breakaway and some of the devastation, I guess, that McGraw as an organization, as an company is experienced, is that you've got some very, very strong personal brands that have gone off, pived off, and done their own thing. Mm. Now, that might be good or bad. Yes. But that's obviously a consequence of this personal brand. But what I'm seeing is there's more and more of it out there at the moment. How do you, I mean, what are your thoughts on that as a practitioner in this market? Yeah, it's a lot, a lot of people, as you said, and a lot of people are branding themselves under another brand, basically, that's what they're doing. And a lot of business owners are encouraging that now because they need to keep their stuff and they need to keep everybody happy and, you know, at McGraw's, we have not cut any of this. Yes. And what I'm saying is that it's actually driven by the agents themselves and in an effort for the organization, say, for the agency to maintain or keep these people on board. Are you saying that that's what's driving that? Yeah, look, I think that people like myself that you, I mean, I, with my personal branding, it is aligned with McGraw's branding as well. So we do have guidelines. I can't just go out there and do what I want and when I want. So we have guidelines. And I do align myself with McGraw's because of their brand as well. But I know other agencies allow personal branding as well under their brand. And it's encouraging because they're encouraging it and allowing it to happen is because they don't want to lose me or they don't want to lose a staff member to go and open up money senior real estate. And, you know, for me to go and open up money senior real estate, there's fit out costs, there's systems cost, there's structure, there's so much to it than what people actually realize. And, you know, so they're allowing us a little bit of flexibility around branding ourselves. Because some years ago you were like, I wouldn't have been able to get you in here. No, because that's right. That's right. That's right. There was, we would have had very strict controls over what we couldn't do. So obviously that don't want to lose staff. They want to retain and keep people happy. And people we as agents want to be able to do our own little thing here and there and brand ourselves out there in the marketplace as well. So they have allowed us a little bit of flexibility around that, which is incredible. Because I don't want to lose us. And other big companies are the same. You know, I know a lot of real estate agent owners that allowed their staff to also brand themselves as well. And it's because they want to retain you and they don't want me to go on up in money senior real estate in the southeast. So I'm really running my business as I would under McGraw brand, but I'm also at McGraw because of their systems are incredible and their structure is incredible. And for me to go and create that, it's time, it's a lot of money. And then I'm surrounded by mentors that I do respect in the business. And they're there for us at any, you know, I can pick up the phone and ring John McGraw and say, what are your thoughts on this? I can pick up the phone and say, can we do a breakfast next month? I want to invite my clients to a John McGraw breakfast. So we've got all that at our, you know, fingertips as well, which is I find incredible. And that also helps my brand in my area. When you were talking about John McGraw before, kind of remind me of Steve Jobs coming kind of back into Apple, you know, reinvigorating a dying Apple, but reinvigorating and bringing back what Steve Jobs really represented was innovation and cure customer centric design. And let's focus about building amazing products. But he really just went back to what he was always doing. And is John McGraw kind of coming back into McGraw and looking at it going and look, I've been doing this long enough. Let's get back to the basic. Let's do what we've always done or as John McGraw coming in and say, look, things have changed. And the world of an agent going forward is different to what it's been. And we've got to change as an organization to do things differently, which Rudy is he taking. A bit of both to be honest, because we are doing everything he's going back to the basics, but he's also going in innovating, you know, changing our marketing and rebranding everything. So which is what he was good at before. And he would always rebrand McGraws, you know, when he was a whenever he feel needed. So he's back doing what he was doing, but also as a company to us agents in this changing market, we've got to change the way we do business. So we have John or, you know, Adrian Bow or agents that are coaching junior agents and even myself and my staff in how to do business in a changing market. What are some of the different ways that you've been coached now than you may have been coached when you first started, for instance. I'm really lucky that at McGraws, that we have a lot of in-house coaching. And it's probably one of the reasons that, you know, I'm there as well. And it's also my staff. So me as an agent, to me as running a team is a different mindset. And I do struggle with that to be honest, because I'm running now a team I've got two other full-time staff and one casual. So it's a team of four. So I'm an agent. I'm to see myself as a business manager and a manager to those staff. It's hard. So and a lot of agents at McGraws are growing teams and that's how we're doing business at the moment. So we are growing our teams. So McGraws have, you know, helping us implement systems around that. And we have people that are coming in and working with our staff in helping that. And that's amazing because that takes that away from me. So we are doing training sessions on prospecting. We're doing training sessions on marketing. We've got people that are, you know, changing our social media marketing and doing a lot of behind-scenes stuff to try and attract more buyers to McGraw properties. In terms of actually training, though, you know, a lot of this stuff is the backend or the side parts of what you do. I mean, in terms of actually how you deal with buyers and how you deal with vendors. Yes. And how you've done things in the past. Yes. And you're saying that things are changing in the future. What exactly are you doing differently today? And is it a mindset shift as in the way we approach it, the way we think about it is different or we're just trying different approaches? Both. So mind is a mindset shift to end dealing more with my vendors and my buyers and a lot more communication. So the days of just doing callbacks leaving, you know, 150 messages on a Monday and just forget abouting them. They went here from me for another week or two because I got 10 buyers. You can't do that. So I'm. Is that because the market is shifting or is that because you think longer term that'll get you a better result? Both. Both. I have had Lee's and two team members for that reason for both. So for future business and to be able to service my database and my clients and give me for me personally to spend more time in doing the things that I'm best at doing. So I've done it for both reasons. But in a changing market, we're communicating more with our vendors where meeting faced I am meeting face to face with my vendors pretty much every week. I'm speaking to them every day because we have to. So when we talk around price point, I'm going to my vendors face to face and going this sold. This is a square meterage. This is how it compares. This is the aspect was vendors get focused on their property and they feel that their property is better than every other property on the market. Well, that's something a huge bias. We all have. I mean, we all value things that we are and undervalue that other people own. And I mean, that's the one of big challenge. Big challenge is to make sure the vendor be released realistic. I mean, I'm very interested. Real estate agents get a bad rap. Their liars. They don't ever tell you the truth, etc. etc. Never trust a real estate agent. Absolutely. Well, bias. A liar. All those are liars. That's a common saying. In real estate agencies, you know, and they feel like they've got to play the game because, you know, they're rocking up to this party and this party is where everyone's doing anything they can and what they want. And they're just trying their best. They're an elephant. And, you know, what's your thoughts on all that? Absolutely. So in two years ago, or the last few years, we've had a great market. So buyers had reasons not to trust us agents because we might have been quoting a figure. And then it goes for 10, 15 to sometimes 20% above that figure. So obviously, they're feeling we're lying. And a lot of agents wouldn't communicate to the buyers and say, we've had 15 contracts out. Some agents would say, you've got a chance of buying this. We're only given two out and then they turn up to the auction and there's 10, 15 registered bidders. So the agents obviously look like they're lying. Then they are lying. And that's just to get to buy to the auction. So think that buyers do have reasons for not liking us. And that's something that I do try and focus on. And he's trying to be really transparent to my buyers because in times like now in a changing market, the buyers are now in the box seat and we are chasing them and we are calling them and we're communicating with them more than what we ever have. How do you play that from a vendor? So I'm the seller, right? I'm going, look, money, love you. Really want to sell my property through you. And then you're then saying, well, what's going to sell best is an auction in that market. And so really power in auctions momentum. And even helping you identify that one strong buyer. You know, that's really the power of an auction in this market. Definitely. And so I guess you're trying to rather than talk about it, you just really, I mean, at an auction, you just want to get as many buyers there, right? That's great. And that bit of competition, if I'm the one who's always going to buy it, you know, I'm just going to get more excited because there's going to be all these other people bidding. And we're well, I'm not losing this in front of all these people. I mean, that's right. That's when the motion kicks in. Yeah. How did you, did you, were you being transparent through those years as well? Kind of all, just like, look, you know, there's lots of contracts out being quite hazy with it all. No, I've, I've always been transparent. And I think that's where you'll now find good agents or junior agents coming through that haven't been. So how I have done business is how I have always done business. So that's why we do have listings now. And we have been consistent. I have been consistent for the, for the last five years at McGraths with the figures that I have written. And I find that because of the transparency and the communication, the conversation I'm having with buyers. Whereas if I wasn't doing that, I wouldn't have listings today. And they're the agents that don't have listings. So it's more short term money, you know, it's not long term future goals and looking at their long term career and real estate. So, but yeah, it's an, an auction obviously for us in today's market is, you know, two years ago or even six months ago, we would have 10 emotional buyers. And the competition would kick in and you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry. It just happens. It just happens. So, but now auction is still working in my area. It does still create a deadline for the buyer to make a decision. And that's why we are auctioning properties. And also find that we are unsure around pricing as well because it is changing. So I'm doing now instead of four week campaigns or three and a half to four week campaigns. I'm doing a five week campaign. Because the first week or two is getting a feel around the price point. So it's important for buyers to ask the agent, what week of the campaign are they in? Because by week three or four or week three, your agent will know exactly where it's at. And that's the same with the vendor good or bad. I mean, that's a great question. What I love about that is that our listeners will be property buyers. Yes. And that's a little insight tip for them to go, what week is this, you know, absolutely. What's another really great question? So asking the agent what week they're in, asking the agent if they've had any had any office. And agent now is legally, you know, bounded to tell that to buyers. So this is still shady. It is shady because what's your definition of an offer? In writing on email. And I quite often, so in week one of my campaign, I will side this. is what I've guided to the owner. Week two of the campaign is depending on the feedback is, you know, I'm guiding this, however, the owners at X. So trying to plant pricing in that buyer's head and then from-- - That's cool, anchoring, by the way, this is-- (laughing) - And then I need to get feedback from the buyers for both my vendor as well is, okay, if I mention the X figure that my vendor wants and the buyer's showing resistance around that and more than one is, then I go to my vendor and go, we need to adjust. This is where the feedback is around price. So then by week two, I should actually know that as an agent and I should be communicating to my vendor throughout those two weeks to know where they're sitting at as well and if it's overpriced from their end as in if the vendor's wanting too much. So that's 'cause I'm working on my vendors in those first two weeks as well as the buyers. So then by week three, I should be confidently voting in a range where my vendor will sell that. - Now I love hearing you explain that so clearly because that is the way a good agent actually manages this whole process. - Yes. - And because there is this element of unnoting your vendor's head, vendor tells you what they want, but then sometimes they're not honest. - That's right. - Then they buy-- - I tell you what they think they might prepare to pay but often they're not honest. And as an agent, you're in this middle ground, we're trying to second guess everyone. So what you're using is specific and in fact using anchoring for both buyer and vendor in order to get everyone in the same head space 'cause the end of the day, I mean, the vendor wants to sell and the buyer wants to buy. So you've got to get everyone in that somehow swimming in the same pool. So I like the way you've explained that. Now one thing that really is a bug, Beavon, not just for me, but for a lot of buyers out there, is this idea of feedback. - Yes. - The thing that is used and banded around by agents, and it always makes me laugh when someone who's never asked me a question tells me about feedback. And I go, this is great. You're giving me feedback from all these other buyers. And I'm presuming you've asked them as few questions you've asked me. - So where the hell is this feedback come from? - Yeah. So what-- - It's a feedback that the agent wants to give the buyer. (laughing) - That's what it is. - It's absolutely. - Yeah, it is. - It's used in the English language. - It is, absolutely. - I mean, I think let's say that, you know, you're saying it's a changing market. - Yes. - And there might not be one buyer. - Yes. - How does that one buyer know whether they're one buyer or what sort of feedback would you give them to make? Because they need competition to put a good offer in. - They do. And throughout the campaign, if they're the only buyer, they probably won't know that they're the only buyer. And they say turn up on auction day and they're the only person registered. - No, in that situation, honesty, got one registration. This is the reserve. Let's just go behind closed door and see if we can close this deal. And that's what I'm doing with the one buyer auction. - How do they respond to that? - Oh, they love it because it's honesty. I'm not having a vendor bid. - It's why I have a vendor bid. - So in that situation that when I have done that, they do, they love it. They prefer that. You know, if there's two buyers at an auction and they're both registered, obviously got an auction, but one person may not bid. So it's planning the auction and where you have the vendor bid and you should buy them, know where your buyers are at so you can't have that too high. And then just again, honest conversation. And if you've been communicating with both the vendor and the buyer throughout the campaign, you can have that. And we are closing deals. And I think that's what's been my luck if you say that, you know, we sold four properties last week and it happened because of the communication. And if I weren't communicating with the vendor or the buyers, I wouldn't have closed any of those deals last week. - I think that's a really good point as well around the vendor. People want to be sold the dream. And the vendors would love for you just to keep telling and what they want to hear. But really, a good agent would be honest with the vendor and say, we've got no buyers. - Absolutely. We've got Johnny and Jill and Jack and all these people who are fake, I guess, people basically because it's a risky thing for a vendor to pick an agent. - Yes. - And then two or three weeks into a campaign, if that agent is saying, look, we've got nothing. We've got one buyer. Is that a real good agent would do that? - Oh, my God. This is where it's hard. So you're signing up the listing, it's selling them all your systems and you're selling them how good you are and what you can offer and then mid campaign you, you're going to them with no buyers. And so for me now, having a crucial conversation with the vendor is when I sign the property up. So I am signing properties up. I'm telling them when they're going to expect to hear from me after opens on the expecting to hear from me Monday night with stats of how many people clicked, how many people have viewed their property on socialmediadomain.com, realistate.com. Now, if we've had so many hits and nobody turn up to the open, we need to reassess then your background price and maybe display a price immediately. So I'm telling my vendors what to expect from me throughout the campaign when I'm signing them up. So when I say to them week two, I'm coming to you and it's going to be great news, we're going to leave it at it is because we've got two or three buyers. That means we've gone out at a correct price or if I'm coming to you week two because we've got nobody turning up to the opens, we're having offers a lower than expected, then I'm coming to you to price adjust to lower the price and display extremely realistic price if you want to sell. And because I'm having the conversation when I'm signing the properties up, week two they're just waiting. (laughs) They're just waiting for what's happening in my campaign. So when I go to them week three, by week three, we should be okay. That's why I've extended to five week campaign. So I've got enough time to readjust their expectations and where the buyers are at to try and close that gap. - I love that it's all data driven there. - Oh definitely. - And at the vendor point of view, it's, you know, we're going to let the reality, the facts do the talking. I'm an, I imagine if you're overselling a property at a listing, it's very hard to use the data because, you know, you told me that number. So, you know, now you're telling me that the data's saying differently. But even then it's an awkward conversation. I remember that one. - It's awkward. - It's almost telling. There are times when, you know, you went in and you actually believed that it was worth it. - Absolutely. - Absolutely. And then you're just finding that for whatever reason that property's got no traction or happens to be in that segment of the market where all of a sudden there's a heap of new properties on the market that are pretty much the same as that one and you're stuck and you didn't anticipate that. Or they waited longer to list than you suggested and then they've gone into spring, for instance, when there's a lot of stock around. So you got all that stuff to deal with. And as an agent, it takes a fair amount of fortitude to be able to have that very uncomfortable conversation, doesn't it? - Absolutely. - So much of that is experienced. - And that's, yeah, that happens a lot. So we were starting out properties in November, December for auctions in February, March. And we're finding the price point around that was, for me, it was a huge gap. So that was really hard conversations going into the new campaigns in February on last year's pricing. It is really hard. And it's, you've also got to put your hand up and say, you know, I, not misguided you, but at that time I did believe it was worth that. Unfortunately, now this, it is what it's worth in today's market because it X, Y and Z. And you're giving them facts. - Yeah, but then you tap into what is a belief about agents. - That's right. So you're then going, I did believe it. You're on the back for you defending yourself. And the same time you got to go out there and deal with buyers and trying to find the buyer and actually get that buyer into the right position day. - Position. - Position. - So as an agent, you got an elephant, right? You know, you're writing an elephant at this point because there's a lot of emotion going on within agents. - Definitely. And for us, we need to stay ahead of our clients. And we need to know what is coming on the market that is identical or similar to the property we're selling. And we've got to be on the front foot, know what the agents are guiding. How does it compare to your property that you've got on the market? So then I pick up the phone and ring my vendor and go, did you see what this agent's just listed? They're quoting X. We're quoting Y. This is what we need to do. So if you're on the front foot communicating and the vendors aren't ringing you and chasing you, then it's a lot easier. It's a lot easier. But for us, we need to be on that front foot and we need to not be complacent thinking I've got this listing now. It's going to happen because it's not going to happen. It's got to make it happen. And it is a lot of hard work. Every week we hear incredible stories of the dumb things property buyers do. Dumb things that end up costing them a lot of money and/or creating a whole lot of stress. Mistakes that can be avoided. Now please, money, help our listeners out here. Give us an example of a property dumb-bo. We can all learn what not to do from these stories. So I've recently had a buyer that I was quoting 1.6 to 1.6.50 and they're making offers at 1.480 or 1.450. So there's no need to do that. Really in hindsight, she was a 1.650 buyer. So what's she trying to achieve, do you think? That's what I don't know why they would do that. And we've got comparable sales. It's like, oh, you don't need to do that. That's me, like, yeah. So I just find that really frustrating. I mean, if you're in a market, You're trying to buy a rug. Yes. And they're trying to sell it for $14.50. Yes. And you offer $1,000. It's not a bad idea. It's in a bizarre. But we're not living in here. It's in a bizarre. Not in a shop. Not in a shop. It's not helpful, is it? No, no. It's not helpful. And it doesn't do that by just to see that. Like, you get to give that awkwardness between each other. And I just think buyers should be honest and a little bit transparent, more transparent with the agent. If they believe that agent is honest and they, you know, they can work with that agent to help them buy a property. They've been there. And as the problem is, they don't necessarily believe the agent is honest. That's the agent is honest. Yeah. And every agent works differently. This is the problem for buyers. Every agent works differently. And every agent doesn't, you know, do what they're supposed to do and don't quote what's on the agency agreement and don't have the, so that's where the frustration lies with the buyers. Yes. Is that a big frustration for you that all agents aren't doing the same thing? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. If all agents, if we had our standard commission, which I'd love to come in into place because agents out there are dropping their commission just to get business now. But if it was all industry standard and we all had rules and regulations, the good agents obviously would be doing, you know, extremely well over the agents that aren't. It is interesting, isn't it? You know, there's the idea of the competitive, you know, market forces should dictate price. So that's more of a pricing effectively. Yes. In fact, you can go out there and some people can go in at 1% and you're trying to get to or whatever. And I have to say that that could be an entire other topic. Topic. Yeah. Topic. Good news. A how agents are remunerated. Back to that thing about how they quote and so certain standards in the industry that would help buyers and are really usbother me that the state government in New South Wales changed the laws as a bit of an election tactic and it sounded to me like it was rushed through and I know there's probably people who like it wasn't. But giving agents three alternatives and how they quote, I think, is not helpful to buy. So I think they should have said you put a figure on an agency agreement. That is what you legally have to put on all marketing. That's right. And if that is immovable, unless there's an offer that's in excess of that and that's the only two things that need to happen. That's right. That's right. That should happen. Does that eliminate all our problems? You know, for me as an agent, some agents were going, as we say, try and buy the business. So the problem might be worth two. They tell them it's worth two and a half. So if those agents had to quote two and a half, then the owners would be coming back to our second time round. But the agent would tell them two and a half and quote 1.9 and if the vendor has to sell, they're selling it to anyway. So he would actually stop the agents out there doing that as well. So in a grab one of those agencies that quote price? Yes. These on our agency agreement is what we have to quote out there into the market. And it's also the background price search on our guides on the internet. And it's the background price search, which is really, really important. That is a good point actually. Yeah. And if we have to change that mid campaign, I actually have to get an email from my vendor agreeing and knowing what we have to change. And when we sign up an agency agreement, there's a disclosure page of what we're quoting. So it's crucial conversations with the vendor upon signing the agency and that piece of paper. And that's also aligned with legislation. Absolutely. You have to do that. But there is, you know, and I went along to the industry, the road shows, the RBI, I think the plus road shows and all the rest of it when they were launching the new laws. And it was really interesting because the questions that were being asked quite obvious, so many agents just want to find a way to get around it. Yeah. Still. From a buyer's perspective, and maybe there's something we need to do for the elephant in the room. Maybe we need to get a little elephant, some sort of accreditation for agents that buyers can trust because the problem is, how do buyers work it out? How do buyers work out? Okay, I can trust money. What she says is true. It's a new buyer coming into the market just says, oh yeah, money, she sounds good. What she says is right. That's all fabulous. But you know, she'll probably be just as bad as all the rest of them. You know, it's a very difficult thing for a buyer to do to be able to work out who to trust. You've got any tips there? Yeah, absolutely. And I think if the buyer starts doing homework and they know an area they want to buy and start going to open homes, go to every open home and start to get the know the agents and ask the agents what are the comparable sales? How does it compare? Ask them a list of questions like that and you start getting to know your agents that know what they're doing. And also a buyer's agent. Buyer's agents are great. Oh, thank you. Take that out of the equation and they buy agents do know agents that are direct and transparency because they've dealt with them in the past. And I think buyers agents are, you know, for certain people, they are the right answer. I mean, the fundamentals, I mean, all my clients do use buyer's agents or they at least sit down with the buyer's agent to figure out the right thing for them. One of the things I do, which I think is a very, very good tip there for sellers, is before you go and actually try to speak to agents and figure out, you know, who you want to sell your property. Don't make the calls go out into the marketplace and actually figure out what agents are selling and pretend you're a buyer because that experience you're going to get on that property in the way they treat you is probably how they're going to treat your buyers. Absolutely. How they, you know, approach it and how they and that that experience, you're pretty quickly go, I don't want to work with Johnny or Jack. I'd much rather work with Jill because I just got an amazing experience. Absolutely. And that is how we treat everyone walking into open homes because everyone walking in that door would be a potential light in the future. And every own, you know, you do find a lot of owners do that and they come through and they pretend to be a buyer or, you know, just start coming to open homes and they'll say, how long it will take to get call back a contract. It's a very good test because you're very good test. When you let an agent know that you are a potential vendor, oh my god, they're over you like a rash. That's right. When you come up as a buyer, then you find out the truth of how they deal with buyers out there. Or a buyer that's got a property to sell. Yeah. Agents will adjust. Absolutely. And they will. And they will. Yeah. And they will be able to leverage off that, which is really, you know, for me, if I'm selling a property to a buyer that's got another property to sell, I don't ask them if I can sell their property before I've sold them a property. John, I mean, I don't do any of those deals and that the deals, it's awful. But if that happens, then if that agent's selling your property, they're doing a deal with the next person that comes along. And that's awful. That's awful. So it's funny how some people, you know, they're okay with one head on, not okay with another, you know, as a buyer. Yes. They're actually totally fine for you to deal with me because I've got something to give you. And it's a bit like the whole gizumping thing. Isn't it right? That's right. Well, I'm happy to gizump somebody else, but I'm not happy to be gizumped. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. I'm happy to be gizumped. You might be the only buyer or you might be the strongest buyer, in which case you'd be in a better position if you actually wait and go to auction. The best time if you are going to make a pre-oction offer is the middle week. We say the middle week because a campaign typically runs for four weeks and I say four weeks that you got first Saturday open house, second Saturday, third Saturday and the auctions on the fourth Saturday, which means only three weeks really in the campaign. So that middle week is the time when the vendors more likely to feel that they've had enough exposure to the market to be ready to accept an offer. And it's also before every other buyer gets themselves ready to compete with you. So it's the optimum time. to make an offer if you are planning on buying a property prior to auction. So Veronica, what have we got to add to our elephant memory bank this week? Well another thing that we talked about with money was this idea whether it's better to buy first or sell first and she did talk about the answer that she gives people is very much dependent on the market conditions of the time. Now I've written a couple of blogs on this so I'm going to put those links in the show notes at theelephantintheroom.com.au so that you can read through and understand the principles that you need to be aware of when deciding whether to buy before yourself or sell before you buy. Come back and join us next week when we interviewed Tyron Hyde from Washington Brown quantity surveyors. Now I know that sounds a bit boring but can I tell you we had such an interesting conversation we covered so many different topics when it came to investments and investment property decision making and how investors make crazy decisions for all the wrong reasons. The elephant in the room property podcast is recorded at the Sydney Soundbrook. This week's podcast was recorded and edited by Gordy Fletcher. Until next week, don't be a dumber. Me again, we're looking forward to spending more time with you and uncovering what's really going on in the world of real estate. Please subscribe, be sure to send us a message, leave an eye change review and tell your friends. Now remember everything we talked about on this podcast is generally nature and should never be considered to be personal financial advice. If you're looking to get advice, please seek the help of a licensed financial advisor or buyer's agent who will tailor and document their advice to your personal circumstances with a statement of advice.