[Music] We are the Excellency. [Music] Four existential psychotherapists invite you to join us in a dialogue about what it means to live an Excellency-tuned life. [Music] Your hosts are Xavier Williams, therapist in Vancouver Canada. Janelle Dresner, therapist in Edmonton Canada. Chelsea Stanner, therapist in South Surrey Canada. El mi hai la luna no te repiste el Vancouver Canada. Hello and welcome to the 14th episode of our Existentialist Podcast. And today we're going to be talking about a concept called "In a Consent" which I think is as far as I'm aware, unique to existential psychology, psychotherapy, certainly a big feature of "extential analysis" and really something that I personally think is central, probably the core idea really of what it is to be an existential therapist. And we will explore about what it is and really it's about when we can say yes or when we choose to say no, it can be fully consent and looking at it from a very much a felt inner sense. We'll take you through it in a bit more detail and then offer some examples both personal and clinical. And hopefully everybody is going to be able to at the end of it, maybe ask themselves one or two questions and really say, do I say yes to this or do I say no to this? Yeah, and maybe we can start by offering more of a description or how do we understand inner consent? What is inner consent? Probably most people understand consent. That is especially saying yes to something. But what about the inner part and is consent always about saying yes to something? I'm thinking maybe starting with how to understand inner consent, especially in existential analysis? Absolutely. I remember we're learning about it and having that switch in my mind from just as you say Mahala, normal consent. Yeah, I say yes to something. But basically answering the question, do I really and can I really feel it within me? Can I say I think we've been used to phrase sometimes a full yes, can I really put myself into this, whether that's saying yes and or no? And in fact regular listeners will notice that I've used an example a few times of going to a party when you don't want to. And in other words, not having inner consent to go. And then the repercussions of that how you feel afterwards. But it is very much a felt sense I think is best way to describe it. Yeah, I think that's essential and it's a yes, a felt yes. And since we are in the same room, I saw you like pointing towards your core, like to the gut feeling, where we feel our gut feeling. So it's the inner part is tuning into our self, felt sense of how it feels to say yes to something or to say no to something. And consent is when they say yes to something, we also say no to something else. So guess the yes and no are related in consent. And I mean, so I know that you said something before you started recording about it. Maybe you want to elaborate about the saying yes to saying no, which is a bit of paradox. But I maybe let you elaborate since you brought up that. Yeah, what I'd been thinking about in anticipation of the episode was how could I communicate the how what are the examples of which in which I have actually granted my consent, my inner consent to a given situation. And it most often comes up actually in saying no in can I consent to saying no. And as somebody who's a in the end year, the nine's the peacemaker or maybe let's call me more generally a people pleaser. I used to and probably still do have a tendency to just say yes to go along with things without really asking myself if I really do. And so often they've been times we really wanted to say is no, but not. And so in a consent would be really about can I say yes to me saying no, which is a bit paradoxical, but that's really where I feel it the most. Am I allowed to say no, can I allow myself to say no. And also in saying no, it's for some of us at least the first step to also discovering our inner consent, like sometimes it's easier to say no for some of us, but without knowing exactly what we are saying yes to. So I think we can look at this both ways, right, like if we have a tendency to say yes very quickly also to ask ourselves can I say yes to saying no on the other hand if we were our clients are saying no too quickly that something and rejecting something also to invite our sense or the clients to reflect. Okay, when you say no to this, this is great, that's a very step, but what are you saying yes to so the yes and the no are really forming a dynamic duo in consent. And I think to deepen that a little bit just practically to kind of ask yourself and reflect as well to what things do I say yes when I feel no and what things are easy for me to say yes when I feel like I'm not. Yes, when I feel it's a no inside or what things am I more compelled to give my yes or my no to when I actually feel something different because that could be a difference to I know for me if somebody's with me and asking for help. Then I feel even if I lack capacity and internally it might be a no not because I don't want to help that I may not be able to or it would stretch me to thin but in those types of situations I'm more inclined to render my consent void and and give my yes when I don't really mean it. So then is that really giving a yes I'm wondering maybe we can break it down when we talked about when you guys talked about earlier the felt sense like the felt sense of yes perhaps we could provide our listeners a bit more of a description of like what is that felt sense because there is a yes that is like that said people pleasing or it's just purely a verbal agreement and then there is a deeper rooted yes. That's really arising from us that to me seems like it would be very obvious to tell the difference but I actually think that is a capacity we have to develop or an attunement to ourselves to actually be able to tell is this something that I'm truly saying yes to. So I'm just curious about and you if you want to share like what is your experience of that felt yes when you know you're giving your inner consent. No I'm glad you brought that up because I was thinking along the same lines to when Mojala mentioned that felt sense around distinguishing okay what is that and how do I know when I actually have consent and when I don't for me when I think back on experiences of having that consent and giving my yes it feels like a gathering or a mustering of myself inside not in the sense of yes. I'm not a side not in a forceful way but there's a vitality to it there's something a little bit more energetic to it that there's a rising of some sort that I can feel and sense and it also feels like there's almost a little bit of relief in it as well at the same time. So that mustering or that rising like when you said that it made me think about it created a movement in which you would want to go toward or there was maybe attraction toward whatever you were saying yes that that movement would then propel you toward. Yeah it feels like a mobilizing type of experience or energy. And also thank you to see that my also my felt experience and then when we express it I mean I find myself when I express that yes after mastering my energy like my voice so to speak it's more clear and the words are coming easily so we can notice it also in how we communicate that I can much more sure I confident not. And then I think it's just kind of overbearing confidence but like really sure grounded way to to affirm it it's like affirmation and then after arriving at that decision that this is my position this is what I say used to there's also a sense of lightness sense of light. And then I think it's right this is good. Yeah lightness is very much that that feeling that I know when I feel light I've consented to it I'm good with that decision and then I like the words they Chelsea kind of a musteringer because that kind of leads into the kind of the second part in my mind is when I can when I do really give in a consent to something then I can throw myself into it. And then I can really show up for example that example that sticks with me in that really kind of reinforced it for me I remember once we're supposed to go to a watch a soccer match with some friends and but that night there was some family dinner that my mother that somebody was going to come and cook and show us how to cook curry and everything.
you enjoy curry but previous experience that taught me that having curry with my enlauze was a bland affair in the literal sense as in no spices which to me is futile for curry and I went along because I felt obliged. Well, initially and I remember walking, getting onto the sky train and not wanting to go I really wanted to go watch a soccer match with my friends and I really and they were texting me and everything having fun and and about halfway down I asked myself is going I do I really want to go here why am I going and why am I not doing what I wanted to do and I came to a position where I I was able to grant myself consent to go to this thing that I didn't really want to go to in the first place and then was able to throw myself into it so I went I stood with this chef like right at the stove and I did everything with her and I so I was really there I didn't just kind of sit in way to be fed I really kind of go through myself injured and I was only able to do that because I had sat and asked myself can I consent to this yeah and and I think sometimes that's a beautiful example and in that example it sounds to me that you are really fully there like you consent it but there are also situations when you cannot consent fully so also like managing our expectations sometimes like that and realizing there are degrees of consent so the important thing is not to go for absolute like I'm completely fully in and if I don't get that full feeling of mastering my strengths and clarity and lightness that means that there is no consent and there is no point I just go with the flow but even asking myself to what to how much of this action or activity can I give consent how much consent can I give that's still very important so that's especially for people who are more on the perfectionistic side and they like to set high standards the key part will be to ask myself to go to that core to myself to my god feeling and ask myself is do I want to say yes to that am I with myself in this I think that is huge both in Zav's example which you said my highlight because I think Zav when I heard is that you you had this feeling that you didn't want to go and I think that's an important distinction is when we talk about inner consent we're not just talking about like what do I want versus what I not want or just because I I don't have all the positive feelings toward this dinner that means I don't consent so case closed I'm not gonna do it and so I have what you're saying is that we don't always give a full consent there's not always this full body yes and I want to it can be yes because it's rooted in a value that is important or there are values here that are layered and some you know I need to weed through the ones that are taking precedent and the ones that I'm gonna choose to lean into in this moment even if that means that another value that I cherish I don't get to realize in this situation because I'm saying yes to these values over here that may have been in conflict so it's not always the inner consent isn't always I feel amazing in making this decision sometimes but like you said there is a no and that no can be disappointing too yeah and maybe this is a good time to kind of flesh out what that no feels like not you know saying yes to the no but before that when you sense a no before you give your answer yeah I think for me it definitely also felt like still and might in my core like there is a resistance like a wall coming up like it's a hardening of some sort instead of opening myself to the possibility of whatever it is I find myself closing in and becoming hardened so not open not kind of not soften and opening up to the possibility but actually there is a clear kind of defense a clear wall coming up but I if it is a yes to the no to that know that I still feel what it describes you see that mastering of strengths in order to say no so that remains and the clarity if it is a yes to the no if it's just an opposition and I guess that's nothing that consent yeah I can tell when I'm not feeling consent similarly to you that that hardening or some kind of bracing as well as a feeling like I can feel it in my body of wanting to move away lean back to to pull away to find another direction and so I also consent that to as well as tension more tension to like it feels like there's a a pressure yeah for me I sometimes I I don't know that it's a no I don't always am not cognitively aware that how much I maybe don't want something or don't like something especially with activities that I'm engaging in that are more obligatory or they may be started out to be in alignment with my values and so there was a yes there but over time through actually engaging with the activity realized oh this doesn't line up either what I thought it was gonna be or it's just not really meeting what I was hoping for and so what I find is my no will usually manifest physically first I get anxiety I feel emotionally resistant or just feel like a feeling of blocked or things are foggy or I just can't act like I can't get into that sense of flow with what I'm doing whether it's a work project or what have you so I find it takes a while for me like it takes a good amount of time of sitting with something especially if there's obligation backing when I'm doing for me to say okay is this something that I am not consenting to that I thought that I had but I lost it along the way somewhere you know I really like that you you reminded us about how that kind of consent isn't say permanent right it might change throughout an event or an experience and I remember starkly kind of in a very very early training going to a lecture by Dr. Alfred Langler who's the kind of the president of the society and the one who basically created our version of existential analysis and there was this talk and there were like I don't know let's say 200 people in the auditorium and yeah welcome them and he said I'm glad you all decided to come here today and then his very next sentence was but if at some point you find me a bit more and you don't want to be here then leave which to my mind stunned me you know this idea that you would be in the middle I think he was talking to people in the middle that he would say if you really don't want to be here in the middle of my leave like don't stay which is it was effectively kind of in a very simple way him kind of encouraging in a consent is do you want to be there and just because you wanted to be in the beginning doesn't mean you will halfway through and oh thank you so I remember that too I think the beauty of that it's not only like to open the possibility for changing the consent and inviting us to check maybe ongoingly if we still consent to what we consented initially but I think also to meet highlights the importance of inner consent like the profound importance for our existence because it brings to the fore our essential freedom at this human beings we are free nobody is or nobody should force us to be in a certain place and do a certain activity or participate in something and it's taking that freedom upon us upon ourselves and making decisions I guess that's what I find so over and over again so attractive about inner consent and dialoguing about this topic is how is fundamentally related to who we are as human beings and to our existence the fact that we are free and we can make decisions we can say our yes even to our know I really like to what you said about taking upon ourselves our freedom and I think that's true because I think especially with like the routines and daily habits and obligations our responsibilities we can kind of forget that we're free and forget to stop and pause and ask and be in dialogue with ourselves around to really go huh just because I eat oatmeal for breakfast every morning and am I giving like my consent to this actually or am like am I taking the time to really not use but to take upon myself that freedom like you said and we can also ask for inner consent even in routines like even eating oatmeal like to check with ourselves do I still want to do this every morning maybe yes maybe this is an important ritual which is fine if you find yourself free in that but also to ask for our inner consent in other kind of routine perhaps menial every day task like taking the garbage all doing the dishes the things that perhaps not everyone enjoys and trying to do those with an inner consent mindset I can I say yes to this just to pick up again on something that Janelle said about how some things particularly if they're kind of obligation related that they take Thank you.
to sit with, to really develop your answer to your consent to this or not. And I think that it's wonderfully illustrative of, let's say, the span, the spectrum of inner consent in that inner consent can be something about something really big, like really, really big, really meaningful, really personal and as simple, and this is often where I try and get clients to start with, that is which direction I choose to go home or what restaurant I go to or what I eat for my meal at a restaurant. What am I? It's not quite on the same level, but it's everything in life you can ask yourself this question too. Yes, because our existence unfolds in every moment and we are asked to take upon us the freedom and to actualize our existence in every moment, not only in the major life decisions, but in every moment, like we can encounter ourselves as free and we can ask ourselves, do I want to be here? Do I want to do this? But also like Ejonal, you made a great point about the question that came to my mind, does it mean that we never do anything if we don't have inner consent and that feeling of our God, that is the lightness and the strength, mastering and the clarity, like we just forget it today, I don't feel like getting out of bed and go about my day and under my commitment. So what to do about that? I think for me, there is a lot that is relieved and recognizing that there isn't inner consent or there's a lack of consent and even making peace with that sometimes when I have to see things through or I need to get and need to get tourist done, although I will push this off for as long as possible sometimes. But when life things happen or I made a commitment and it is honoring to that person to follow through, I do try and connect with, is there a value in this that I can consent to? So for example, my poor sister, she's listening, but if my sister asked me to babysit one night and it's after a long day of work and I agreed to it weeks ago and I'm really tired, I'm not going to back out on her last minute, even though I don't have full consent or my body is like, "I'm so exhausted, I don't have consent for this, what I do consent to is following through all my commitments." And I do it and I like, Zahab, I think that's a great attitude of finding a way to throw yourself into it. And then of course, my niece is in nephi or fantastic, so it's always great. So sometimes if I can find a value, I'll look for it there, but sometimes it is just the building a relationship with my discomfort and being aware of opportunity to get to know myself, of my character and my decisions I make when there is a lack of consent. And I think that can be important. No fronkel talks about different types of values and one of those is attitude, no values. When we don't have a choice, when we really can't affect change in a situation, then we can at least change our attitude. So if I can do that, that's how I try and approach a situation. Although I don't want to make that glamorous, it doesn't feel great. I mean, it's a hard thing to do. So it's certainly a capacity that I've been trying to cultivate. Yeah, thank you, General. Very important, like, two things, really, like movements, two doubts for me, like what you talk about, when you talk about the relationship with the discomfort and the unpleasant and developing the capacity to tolerate that and be with that and not basing the, I mean, founding our inner consent on only on what's pleasant and attractive in the moment, but actually being able to tolerate that, if we truly say yes to another value that may be even more that we can detect in a maybe larger picture or it's a different kind of a value, like for you, in that example, with your sister and baby sitting, there are also some competing values there. Of course, the value of taking care of yourself and resting or sleeping versus the value of honoring the commitment that you made your sister and a pleasure, the joy of spending time during this season. If you so, there could be competing value. So the important part is inner consent. It's also to clarify to what are we saying yes to what value are we saying yes and to what values are we saying no because it's very rare that we say yes to all values involved in the situation. Sometimes there is no, but temporary no to a legitimate value, like in your case, the resting and taking care of yourself. And yet you could detect the values, the other important values and I assume that helped you tolerate that discomfort. Certainly, and I like what you just mentioned about the temporary no. I think that's important too. If we're saying no to a value that wants to be realized in this case for me wanting to rest, that is important for me to hold that. If I can't meet that need in this moment, it is still important. And for me to be able to say yes to it in another time and I may have to intentionally carve out time to say yes to that, taking time to rest, but I think that that's important. Sometimes it's not all or nothing that if I say no to it, then I'm always going to, we get to rearrange our lives. We get to think critically that way about how we spend our time and how we can actually attribute time, transfer of our time to different values that are competing for attention. Thank you, Jonathan, for clarifying that. I was also wondering, given what we are all doing for a living, like, no being psychotherapies, I mean, I don't refer to our secret work life beyond the approaches simply what we declared as we are doing. Like, is it important for our clinical practice, for the in psychotherapy? And how exactly and maybe, of course, it will be even helpful to maybe provide some practical examples or suggestions how to cultivate inner consent. As clinicians, it's also for clients and for our listeners who may be interested in some practical strategies, but is it important in our practice, in our clinical practice? All right, I would say certainly. I'd suggest for anybody in any profession, certain degree of inner consent is preferable, I'd suggest, my previous professions, I didn't never really chose, they kind of happened when you need a job, you take what's offered and then maybe you can do a candidate and be get better at it. And so you keep going. And I think a lot of people actually fall into that bracket. So I certainly can say I never consented to any of my previous professions, even kind of on a day to day, a client to client basis. I think it's important, right? Because there would be, this is a secret that I think it's probably a bit of an open secret. Not every single client is a fantastic client, not every single client is an easy client, not every single client is somebody you don't want to be friends with, right? Which not getting into ethical questions here, but in order to really be present, to really care for your clients, to really want to help them, I think inner consent has to be present. And I think for a lot of us, it probably is there, maybe not quite automatically, but largely. We don't have to think really hard about it. But sometimes, maybe on a particular day, maybe if we're struggling with a particular set of issues, even over a whole period of time, I'd be hard pressed to do this without it, I think. And what I hear you saying is that inner consent provides this foundation for your work that when you're working with clients that you drive really well with, but then when you're also working with clients that are more challenging for you, that inner consent provides that capacity to continue to turn toward your clients and to put yourself into the work that you do and to say yes to it. Yeah, you said it will help a lot better than I did. Thank you. Try to help you. And from also like thank you so that's really important to realize that for us as therapists, and we also, it's so important to have consent to what we are doing. And indeed it is, I mean, I like what you said in another episode about our profession is that we are asked to wake up as human beings and we are continuing to be a fully human or try our best to be fully human throughout our day in any encounter with clients. And I think it will be incredibly difficult. I mean, it is because of open secrets, right? It's obviously it's not always like in my practice, I'm not always in every single moment is my very best. Of course there are moments when I like any human being, even being a human being means that I am maybe perhaps more tired or there are challenges, but I really appreciate it. You said so that I go back to that place asking myself, do I want to do this? Do I say yes to it? Do I find my freedom in choosing this? And so far it's very reassuring that I say yes to this, but it will be incredibly difficult. I don't think it will be possible to be a good therapist without having inner consent to this, to being human with other human beings. Yeah, I agree. At least I think there are certainly days that have been harder or that it's been harder for me to connect to the consent room. Just not I don't have, I'm not feeling it. However,
then having encounters with clients really does reignite that, like feeling how meaningful the work is. It is certainly, I think, a matter of a big yes to this work. So I am grateful that this job is so meaningful, but I also, I've heard from clients, I think that many therapists have had this experience of clients coming to them after not having a good experience with other therapists. And I think I get that sense, sometimes I listen to clients talk about what was unsatisfactory for them in their last relationship. And I would imagine that there probably wasn't a full consent of the therapist, so they just couldn't say yes to seeing that client into committing to understand where they're coming from to understand what's going on. And for me, on my lesser fantastic therapy days, I certainly become more explanatory, and even though that's a word, I explain more often or I, instead of, like, dipping into that phenomenological attitude and just slowing down and the attempt of looking and the attempt of listening and the really understanding, I explain or interpret or analyze. And I don't think that leaves this much room for encounter. And so I can tell I've noticed, at least for me and my pattern, is like, oh, on the days where I may be struggling to feel that consent, whether it's 'cause I'm tired or what have you is that I notice a difference in my therapeutic presence. - Janelle, I completely agree with you. I notice the same thing for myself as well. And I think sometimes when I have noticed that, that just taking that little break in between sessions to kind of reestablish my sense of consent, because I think the work that we do, especially and particularly phenomenologically, it requires so much openness and so much attunement where in order to do that, the consent is vital. Like if we even compare the embodied experiences we were talking about earlier, where Mahalas said, when she doesn't feel consent, there's this hardening that happens or this wall that comes up. And I felt that too. And that wall is detrimental to the openness and detrimental to the relationality. And so I think just to concur with everything that we've said, I think consent is vital in our profession. And I'd actually be curious to explore, discuss, maybe not necessarily even in the therapeutic setting, but just generally what the dangers are of not living with consent. - Yeah, I like it not leaving my life, like leaving life based on other rules or obligations, duties without ever finding myself in my life. And I think it's extremely dangerous in therapy in particular because of the reason that you mentioned and the vulnerability that exists there. But I think that's a great danger, like not knowing myself, not finding myself, not being present in my life with my life. And then we start the human beings, including clients. - Then we're at risk of disconnection, of feeling, maybe being disconnected from ourselves and not being able to give that consent, but then experiencing disconnection from others. And I say this, I was thinking about, what I was saying about people pleasing earlier and how if you're always saying yes or acquiescing is probably a better word without really having your consent, then you don't ever get to show up. People don't really get to see you. And then they don't get to interact with you and thus you don't really get to interact with them because you're not really there. And that has potential for disconnection and loneliness. I think I've had quite profound loneliness. I suspect a lot of clients and presumably a lot of listeners will maybe be able to have a memory or sense of what I mean there where you haven't. Yeah, you just felt like you've missed. - Really missing your life. Like missing yourself, missing your life and leading to feelings of loneliness and meaninglessness. - Yeah, and I think fear, like this, if I were to look at the ways that I'm not giving consent to my life, that may bring an impetus to change, that may actually force me to make a decision or a conscious decision of am I going to live my life and align it with my values or am I not? And do I like the fact that I'm not? Now I have to live with that understanding and that knowledge and that can be really an uncomfortable position for people. I think ultimately fear of change and we've talked about how scary it can be to live authentically which of course inner consent is such an important part of authenticity. So without that, it is difficult to live authentically without ever giving consent. - And I think too, like even looking at phenomenon like anxiety or depression, like you were saying, Janelle, that the anxiety that you can feel in your body is sometimes that no being expressed or that consent isn't there, or maybe a depression, like that loss of meaning, feeling lost in general, who am I? I don't know what I like anymore. What do I do even? I can really have such devastating effects on a person's life. - Absolutely, absolutely jealousy. And given these damaging effects and the importance of inner consent, I wonder if we want to spend a few minutes like discussing how can we cultivate, how can we nurture inner consent for ourselves but also in dialogue with the clients. Like we really use inner consent therapy, perhaps with some clients who are long-term clients and they know about inner consent, it's easy to ask them. So do you have inner consent for this? But what if someone comes like fresh, new and not knowing this way of talking? How may we encourage you like elicit that sense and make them reflect on that? - So one simple way, kind of somewhat indirect way that I do that is several clients who are prone to talking in the third person. And so they'll say, so I make a little bit of a joke of it to say who? And sometimes they click straight away and they say, "I," or sometimes they ask me, "What do you talk about?" And they say, "But it's not me, it's you, do you believe that?" Is this what you think? Is this what you want? And kind of getting them to use "I" a lot more. - That's a great example, so yeah, I can so immediate and so simple and yet so powerful, like even assuming that I position, that I am actually leaving my life and I am present in my existence, I'm not just a new another person, that's huge. And for myself, also, I think you refer to that to Savun and earlier episode about the small steps. I think we talk several times about starting small, but being persistent and then asking the clients like even in therapy, checking with them, do you want to do this now? Do you want to talk about this now? Do you would you like to receive some of my impression or some feedback? Or did they talk about something about going to a party to go to that example? Like did you really want to go or do you want to go? And helping them to come to that feeling of consent or not. - And for me, sometimes a way that I'll use to cultivating it with a client, especially if they're really unsure, is to reflect on the past. Like can you tell me about a time where you were all in, or you had to make a really difficult decision and you came to a decision. And then from there to unpack what that experience was like, kind of bringing that experience into the room or that memory into the room by asking, okay, so, how do you know you were all in? Or how do you know that this was the decision to be made for you or that this is what you wanted? What did that feel like? What did it feel like in your body? What did it feel like emotionally? And then carrying it out? What did it feel like? Because through that then they're able to start recognizing what that feeling is or how to know and how to get in touch with it. So that they can start to recognize it when it comes out going forward. - I think it's really important to anchor that experience in the body and the felt sense. As you said, you'll see and as we discussed at the beginning, because that's usually this is what we remember, like that procedural memory, that body memory. So it's important to have that resource there and to for our clients and ourselves to know how it feels like when we say a full yes. And then even if there are degrees of yes, it's still important to kind of assess them to feel them by referencing that felt sense of a full yes. So very important. So definitely not staying at the intellectual level. and at a cognitive level. But. What do you feel then trying to get to that God feeling that felt sense? Yeah, even funny you said not to stick at that intellectual level I was thinking for people who are who tend to more be more cognitive, more thought rather than feeling. One of the ways that I do it is I have a conversation with my God if you like. I almost kind of imagine like there's this little version of me who sits kind of somewhere around my solar plexus and I ask him am I consenting to this and then the response obviously won't be verbal but it will be some degree of feeling exists and so the continued dialogue with that helps and certainly I'm dead serious when I say I imagine this little guy I mean like that's how I have my dialogue. Well that's very easy to be like now I would try to look for the little spot. At that point about the impending dialogue like turning towards ourselves and really having this dialogue that could be imaginary it could be a real dialogue when you take turns. And also general what you said about values like I wanted to also emphasize like working with our clients to and ourselves to recognize the values involved in saying yes or no to a situation and you described really well. In your example is your sister and baby sitting right like that we are all caught in very complex situation it's not so easy sometimes so we need to dialogue a lot with a little guy or little girl that sits on our solar plexus that in dialogue but it's important to discern the values like what are the values are they competing to what am I going to give priority am I okay to say yes to prioritizing something and to endure my discomfort. So that's another strategy to help clients and ourselves to give inner consent by detecting the values to what am I saying yes to what value and of course teaching them to tolerate this comfort. Yes definitely tolerate discomfort. I think tolerate discomfort so that we can build a container to hold it that's the capacity to be able to hold these tensions is important to cultivate but also sometimes that discomfort needs time to just date before we're very clear on what the next right action is for us to take. I'm always an advocate for giving yourself time. It takes time to come to a place of inner consent particularly with big decisions. So I think also you know I'm working with clients because for some of us and depending on where in the world we're living and some of our cultures we're living very fast pace environments and people expect you to make really big decisions in a short amount of time and so we can actually give ourselves time to let things sit and to really chew on them and think about them and and wear values because even in my work with clients and also in my own work I've had this idea that a certain value is more important to me than it actually is and when I observe myself and I just watch myself in my actions or clients watch what they do in a day they realize oh I thought that one of my deepest values was being in nature but I never go outside. I never take time to connect so is that actually true and then should that decision should that value be such a way be part of my decision and where to live. So sometimes that is a process just to figure out what we think to be true about ourselves and what we value may not actually really be the case. You know I'm so glad that you reinforced that kind of taking up time and I love that word just station and just to add a pop culture reference although I realize it's not kind of contemporary anymore. One of the most famous lines from the original Jurassic Park was in Jeff Goldman's character Dr Ian Malcolm that's him. He kind of condemns Richard Attenborough who's kind of created this dinosaur park and he said you were so worried about whether you could you didn't stop to ask whether you should. I have issues with the word should and clients who are listening might all know this but it's about waiting and asking yourself. And also since inner consent is a decision that potentially can lead to an action. I like a lot what you said. It's the fact that we can do something in only one part of consenting and making a decision. It's also we have to ask ourselves can I but do I want to do I like to do it? Does it do justice to myself? Is it in agreement with myself? It also should I for what greater purpose or how does this decision sit in the larger context? So absolutely these are prerequisite. Otherwise it's a pseudo inner consent. And on that note like maybe just to wrap it up since we give our listeners some you know invitations, suggestions about how to cultivate inner consent. Are there any risks in leaving within our consent? Oh certainly you might upset people. If you yeah. And there are risks and I remember having this experience when I was 23 and I decided this way before I knew what in consent was to not write a master's thesis in a previous degree knowing full well that I was going against familial ideals of education and actually being okay with that. But there's a risk there. There's a risk in at best maybe disappointment from your family at worst people might stop talking to you. They might not like they may not be able to handle I think is probably more accurate when you actually say you know what actually I don't agree with this. I don't want to do this. I'm not consenting to this anymore. Oh absolutely I can do that and we talk about the dangers of inner consent in relationship with authenticity. I also another risk is that some people may think that if I'm leaving so authentically with inner consent that makes that I'm sure that I won't make any mistakes and then I'm always going to walk the right path and there is risk to make mistakes with inner consent. Like even if I feel fully with myself and I have that feeling of lightness in that moment and I express it I may still regret it. I mean the consequence is not the inner consent. The consequences of the actions based on that inner consent may be still not the best you can hope for. So there is a risk of mistake. Absolutely. I'd say inner consent does make you bulletproof. But what it does do is something I tell my clients is that when you've made a decision within a consent you are better able to handle the consequences even if they are negative. I think that's really powerful. You just said, because for me I was just thinking about one of the risks of inner consent particularly if you haven't been living with it for a long time is that your life may change drastically and that can come with a lot of grief, a lot of change relationally with yourself, with others, maybe with work with really any facet of life. So that is a risk that the change could be huge. Definitely. And yeah, I agree. I mean there has been times, sometimes I'm making a really difficult decision where I have a deep felt yes to the decision that I made. But there are tears and it's a real loss. What inner consent did and does for me in those decisions is it gives me peace and it also forms the ground for me to be able to grieve those losses and to metabolize that pain. And to me it feels it's a beautiful process but there's certainly I think a loss and it's interesting because I think there's a loss not living with inner consent. It's just there's a numbness to it or we set up a lot of the defenses to convince ourselves that there is no loss. But we, that, a strangement from self, I think Miley you'd mentioned something about that. That's a price, that's a loss. Yeah, just to reiterate it to itself, it's the cost, the price of being estranged from ourselves and not finding ourselves in our own existence. It's far higher than the upset that we can encounter in others and even the changes that can come as a result of beginning to live more and more with inner consent. On this note I wonder are there any final thoughts or comments before we leave you with the existential question for the next episode? I think a final comment is that inner consent is a key component of not being a victim of one's life and actually standing in one's life and making decisions with one's self rather than life is just happening to me and I can't do anything about it. Inner consent even when we can't actively change our circumstances, we can still choose what we are saying yes to and that's powerful. I think that's a great place to end the genital if everybody else consents. Yes, I can.
That was great. Yes. And so all we have left for you is of course our existential question that leads into our next episode. Today's existential question is do you feel free when you take on responsibility? As ever, send us your answers at existentialistpodcast on Instagram and Facebook and
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