EP #139: Beyond Translation - How Language is a Tool for Building Deep Connection with Ximena Pineda

Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness in daily living. I'm your host, Stella Staphanopolis, and this week is an interview unlike no other that I've done on the podcast. I had the pleasure of getting to bring on a new friend of mine, Hymena Pineda, to talk about the phenomena around how speaking different languages is just another really beautiful way to connect with other people in deeper meaningful fashions. And what's interesting, you'll start to realize as you tune into this episode, Hymena and I could not be more opposite around our proficiency with different languages. I am only proficient in English. She's proficient in like five to seven essentially, which is insane to me. So it was just so much fun to get to sit down with her to hear her perspective on how language helps to deepen our relationships, to talk about how speaking languages helps build more authentic connections with people. Also, how language can be so integral to shaping our own identity and sense of self, which is directly tied to our sense of our well-being and our happiness. So it was just such a pleasure getting to sit down with her. I can't wait for you all to tune into this episode. It really expanded my own thinking around language identity and connection, so I am sure there will be something that will resonate with you as you tune in. Before we dive right into it, I also wanted to shout out Hymena's sub-stack that she just launched. It's called the Leap Club and it's about her life, words of wisdom around moving into freelancing full-time, what it's like, being a creative in that space, and it's also just an opportunity to get to stay plugged into her and her life and her community. So I couldn't be more proud of this new initiative. I love the newsletter and I'm excited to see how she grows it and builds it, so definitely make sure to subscribe to her newest sub-stack. I'll link all of this also in the show notes so you can directly access it, but without further ado, let's dive into this episode. Hi, Hymena. Thank you so much for coming on to Everyday Indoor Fins. It is so great to have you here. Hi Stella, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and knowing that you're all away in New York for this lovely conversation. I know that's honestly the one great thing about technology is being able to connect people across the country, across the world, and you're an Amsterdam right now, right? And you leave for Croatia in a few days, so you're embarking on a lot of travels, but it's so nice to get to sit here virtually with you. New York all the way to Amsterdam. Yeah, what you're saying is so true because I have been traveling the past months a little bit, but I've been able to stay connected with my family and my boyfriend and my friends, and of course working remote has also allowed me to travel. So yeah, that's super nice that I'm able to through the internet, connect with you and so many people at the same time. You know, today's theme is really about connection and exploring the art of connection through travel and languages, and you have really a really interesting story. Even when we got to connect, like before this interview a few weeks ago, and I got to learn more about who you are, and the perspective that you hold on the value of studying languages, I think it just is so fascinating. So I'm really excited to have you share your story with my listeners, and I want to start there. So can you talk a little bit about yourself where you grew up, how you got to Amsterdam now, kind of the journey that you've taken from the start all the way to what made you come to Amsterdam? Well, I was born and raised in Guatemala. When to school there, I had my whole childhood there, and when I turned 17, my parents sent me and my twin brother to study German at our German family's house. And that was the first time where I really understood what it meant to leave outside of your comfort zone, and I was just really fascinated by the fact of, you know, learning a new language and being exposed to so many different people and views, etc. So when I came back, I decided to move to Europe to study my bachelor's, and living in the Netherlands, I decided to learn Dutch. So I had already learned German, I learned Dutch there, I studied my high school in all my whole school in English, so that was already something I could speak before moving to Europe. And of course, my native language is Spanish, so when I moved to the Netherlands, I thought, okay, how can I learn more languages? So I studied European studies at university, and I learned Italian when I moved to Italy for my studies for six months. I also learned Portuguese, also French in university, and I moved to Shanghai to learn Mandarin, so it's been like a whole journey of learning languages well. I'm studying my bachelor's. That's insane, especially the move to Shanghai, which I want to talk about as well, but that's how many languages, four or five that you speak now? Well, I've learned seven. I would say I can speak five. I mean, I can have conversations. Like, fluent, I would say five. My French is very bad, but when I'm in Paris, I can communicate in French, because the people are a bit more friendly if I speak French. So yeah, I mean, I can use them at different levels, but I've learned seven in total. Wow, that's seven more than I know. Six more than I know. So growing up in Guatemala, I think, can you talk a little bit more about that experience? Would you say that the culture being in Guatemala as a kid, like the energy is very much centered around exploration? Or do you feel like it was more so just a part of who you've always been, someone who's naturally curious, someone who's naturally energized by traveling and exploring and experiencing different things? Yeah, so this is an interesting point, because when I was 11, and my parents sent me and my twin brother to a summer camp program called CIISV, and that is basically a camp where you go with 24 delegations, I think, around the world, and you live in a space with all these kids from all over the world for a whole month, and in that month, you learn about different perspectives, about different cultures, about their different traditions. And I did this camps, I think, for like seven times. Like, I was so fascinated by connecting with people from all over the world. I remember I always had like a super nice connection with Swedish girls, which were like completely different to my background, right? So I don't know, I feel like when I was exposed to different cultures, my curiosity for learning more about the stories, about how they grew up, about their parents and their cultures, I was just very driven by that. And I think that in Guatemala, you can have like a super nice international experience, but just if you look for it, like back there, you know, we have Latin America around us. It's not like Europe that you can learn a lot of languages within two hours, you're in a different culture and food and etc. So I think, yeah, for me moving to Europe was the main reason was to explore all these different cultures in one region, let's say. You make an interesting point about how you connected the most with Swedish girls, which maybe like you wouldn't expect. How has your travels and just the experience as a kid getting to live abroad and even as you have grown older, work abroad, travel everywhere? Like how has that kind of shaped your perspective on the way other cultures connect with one another? You know, I grew up in New York, I basically lived here my whole life except for college. And New York is a pretty diverse city. It's like a cultural melting pot. You get people from everywhere and from all walks of life. And so I feel like growing up, I was exposed to a lot of different types of people, but I haven't had the same kind of travel experience as you. And so I'd love to hear kind of how these different places that you've lived and the way that you've kind of put yourself outside of your comfort zone has shaped the way you think about connecting with different cultures and with different types of people. Because I think as humans, we're not really resistant to not bond with people outside of our quote unquote group, like from an evolution perspective and standpoint. But you know, how have you learned to connect with others who maybe aren't like you culturally or were enraged in the same way that you were like through all these experiences that you've had? Because your point about becoming friends with the Swedish girls that you didn't think maybe would be the group that you would gravitate towards having friends. Like I thought that was a really interesting comment. Yeah. So for example, I feel that learning languages has allowed me to connect with people at a deeper level. So for example, if I speak to someone in Dutch or in Italian, I get the feeling that I'm really talking to the person in their most authentic version. And since I've lived in Italy and the Netherlands and Spain and etc. I feel like I I've had the opportunity to really meet a lot of people from all different cultures and languages. And I realized that the moment they know I speak Italian or Dutch or whatever, they open up themselves to me in a very different way than they would do with someone that doesn't speak the language. And I feel like, you know, the words they use, the way they express themselves, the connection we're starting to feel is way deeper than if I would address them in English. And I feel like if anyone in this podcast is listening and they are learning a new language, I feel that everyone can resonate with the fact that when you learn different languages who adopt different personalities. So for example, when I'm with Latin girls or with Latin people, I'm a very different person than when I'm with, for example, Dutch people or German people or with Italians. And you know, it's the way I speak, the way I laugh, the way I move my hands automatically. I just adopt that mannerism, let's say. So I think that's very interesting, you know, like the connection between me and my friends when I address them in their language is way deeper than in English. So it has allowed me to really get to know people in a very different way. Like I have an example that is a very beautiful story, but I met this girl from Italy. She's now one of my best friends. And she invited me to her family home in Tuscany. And I remember arriving there and having dinner with her parents and we were talking all in Italian. She then asked me if I wanted to join like this party from a friend. So we went and it was quite a fancy party. And I was sitting at a table with like 20 Italian people having like, I don't know, a lot of food and wine. And I was just literally having conversations in Italian the whole time. And I just thought like, wow, this girl opened her private space to me because I am able to fit in in her environment, you know, like people don't have to switch to English for me. So I think that's a beautiful example on how you can actually connect with someone deeper and get to know someone's environment way more if you speak their language. Absolutely. That's such a beautiful story. And I can resonate in some respects just having family that live in Greece and growing up, visiting Greece. Usually every summer going to see my family on my mom's side, they still live there and my grandparents and my aunt. And one of my biggest regrets is actually not learning the language at a young age because it's so much harder to adopt when you're older. Like it's so much harder to learn a language from scratch, especially when like Greek, when you're 24, 25 versus like a child. But what I've noticed too is that in more recent times, like in the past year or two, I've actually gotten way more immersed in the Greek American community in New York and have made a lot of friends in that community. A lot of whom who actually speak Greek. And I, like I said, I wish I could speak, but just being in that environment with a Greek community and hearing the language and even listening to Greek music, I actually took dance classes for like six, seven months like Greek dance classes. Just being immersed more culturally allowed me to connect with that group of people in a very different way than the way that I connect with, let's say my high school friends or other just American friends. And I've also noticed that there's this like authenticity that you're able to kind of tap into when you're with people of a similar culture, when you hear the language being spoken, the traditions, et cetera. And it's harder to kind of blend those two worlds because I've noticed some of my American friends, they can't necessarily relate because they're not Greek or they don't have that kind of affinity to the culture and to those people. And so I've noticed like to your point, you get to kind of peel back the layers and tap into a more authenticity when you're connecting through a shared language or a shared culture. And although I can't speak Greek, I have felt that through being more immersed culturally. And it's a very special experience. Yeah. And you know that I think the reason why they connect better with you is because they feel this feeling, the sense of belonging and identity and intimacy. When you're speaking to someone in their language, they immediately feel safe and comfortable. They have to release the tension and they're like, oh, I can be myself. It's funny that you say that because I have a Dutch boyfriend and I speak Dutch. And every time we speak in Dutch, I feel like I'm really talking to my boyfriend. But when we speak in English, sometimes I feel like certain feelings or emotions are getting lost in translation. And now he's learning Spanish. So I'm really like, OK, now you're going to get to know the real me, you know, and we speak in Spanish. And when I speak with my family and my friends, he really understands why I feel so different in Spanish versus Dutch. So it's nice to also have your partner know you in that sense and get the whole picture of who you are and, you know, the way you express yourself because also in different languages, there are words that you cannot really translate to other languages. So for example, in Dutch, you have the word to select that has no other meaning or it has several meanings in Dutch, but it doesn't really have a word you can translate into Spanish or English, for example. So I think that's the beauty of speaking other people's language that you can, when they say an expression or a word, you know exactly what they mean and you don't have to sacrifice getting lost in translation when they turn it into English, for example. I'm so happy you bring up that point because I remember we talked about that too. And it is really interesting like how in a romantic relationship, you're able to maybe be more vulnerable if you can communicate with the other person's language and actually understand them in that way. And you bring up this really interesting point around like things being lost in translation between languages. Can you talk a little bit more about kind of how even body language is a big factor in all of this because when we think about different cultures, not only do they have the spoken language, but expressions and mannerisms kind of what you alluded to earlier. So how has that maybe shaped your understanding of just how humans behave? Like when you can better understand different cultures, through learning the language, but also understanding the way that people act and present themselves? Like how has that made you reflect on your own identity and self in relation to others? I love this question because honestly, I think living in six different countries in three different continents has made me understand so much in between the lines, you know, like for example in the Netherlands, people tend to be super direct. So if they feel or think something, they will say it. And in Latin American cultures, that would be super offensive. Like you cannot just pick your mind, you know, like we are a little bit more polite, a little bit more indirect. And in China, for example, I remember I would ask my colleagues a question and they would say yes the whole time. And then at the end they would not do it or they would not show up, but they were afraid to say no because they didn't want to disappoint me. And I was always a bit like what? But they said yes and at the end of my stage, a guy I realized that that was the way Chinese people communicated, you know, like it's more on the context than not on the verbal communication. Whereas in, for example, in the Netherlands, it's all in the verbal communication. So I've learned to really, you know, communicate with different cultures in different ways. So when I'm with Dutch people, I tend to be pretty direct and I know they're not going to take it as an offense. And when I'm with Latin Americans or with Asians, for example, I tend to be a little bit more polite, a little bit more indirect. If I have something to say, I go around the bush and I maybe give like positive feedback at the beginning, you know, I warm up the conversation a little bit. Whereas in the Netherlands, it's very, yeah, I also really like it, you know, what you get, you know. So also, someone thing I want to add to this is the body language. I think Latin Americans are very, how do you say that, affectionate with their body, you know? Like we hug each other. Physical touches their love language. Like we have zero boundaries there, you know? Like we hug each other, we say we love each other a lot. And you know, we try to show that a lot. Whereas in the Netherlands, I remember my first year, I would hug everyone and like, you know, be super like that. And I realized that I was the only one doing that. So yeah, it has made me also aware of the beautiful things the Latin culture has and the beautiful things that northern Europeans have, for example. So I'm fascinated by all the differences because I think every culture has something you can learn from. It's beautiful that you're able to kind of like shape shift, depending on who you're communicating with to better kind of meet the person where they're at, just based off of how they were raised and culturally what's the norm in what they're used to. And when I say shape shift, I don't mean it in a kind of like a shady way. It's actually a really, really important skill set because communicating is it goes so far beyond actually like what you say. It's really more so how you say it and what I like about what you mentioned earlier is talking about like the context in which the way people communicate and understanding the backstory and the background and the cultural backdrop. I think this is something we can even apply into. Just stay with us. a day life, even if you're not communicating cross-cultureally, just communicating within your culture or just communicating with other people, learning to not take things personally, that's something I've been working on and I'll give you an example. A close friend of mine is half Greek and half Norwegian. He grew up in Norway, primarily, and then came to the States after college and was working and eventually moved to New York. I've noticed some tendencies that he has that I think are really the Norwegian side of him, where Norwegians tend to be a bit colder and a bit more direct and a bit more non-chalant about those things. There have been instances where I've witnessed that communication style and have felt like I've taken offense to some things or I've taken something personally or I've misinterpreted the way he's felt about certain things or experienced certain situations because I've internalized it like, "Oh, he's not having a good time or oh, he's not enjoying this." Really that type of behavior has nothing to do with how he's actually feeling. It's just the way that Norwegians are. It took me a minute to kind of recognize, "Oh, it's a cultural difference." For me, learning to not take things so personally, but also recognize that the way that people express themselves far beyond just their life experiences, but more so understanding that backdrop, I think, is so important. As you've been sharing, I've just been reflecting too. It's also made me think about, "Well, how have I been raised?" What are my parents like and how have they adopted the behaviors that they have that have influenced the way that I communicate and the way that I express myself? It's just a really interesting parallel to draw. For me, I think languages have shaped my behavior and who I am as a person. I think the number one skill I've learned is to match the room. The reason why some people cannot connect with other people is because exactly what you said, maybe you're not getting it, how to say things, how to communicate, how to address a problem. I've learned to match the room because I know that if I'm with a Latin American person, I need to address this problem like this. I know that if I'm with a, for example, a Dutch or a German person, I know I need to address it completely different. I think that has allowed me also to build stronger connections with people, not only in business but also as friends. It has really allowed me to compare my friendship with Dutch girls versus Latina. It's a completely different friendship. What we talk about, what we do together, the feeling that we have together, both are amazing, but if I put two of them together in a room, I'm different. I'm like, "Okay, who am I now?" Of course, I can be here and here and here, but I think my dynamics with my friendships are different just because I adapt to each culture, let's say. I actually just recorded a podcast interview for my friends podcast on navigating adult friendships in life. What you said kind of peaked my interest because I think as we get older, we move away from friendships of convenience. Let's say someone you grow up with or someone you went to school with and you move more towards the model of like, "I get to choose my friends." When you have different friends and different cultures and you get to connect on different things, I think that's really beautiful and also really healthy too because it doesn't put these unrealistic expectations on those types of friendships, like the way you bond with your Latina friends versus your Dutch friends, for example. You can explore different parts of your personality, connect on different shared interests, and I think that's actually a really healthy way to adopt friendships too. Earlier you talked about when you're able to speak someone's language, they feel excited because they feel like their walls can kind of be broken down and there's this immediate connection and there's a sense of belonging, I think is the word that you used. That really resonated with me because something that I've learned in the past year through leaning more into this Greek identity is feeling a tremendous sense of belonging by this group of people and by this community. That has greatly, greatly improved my health and my wellbeing. More so really feeling like a sense of purpose. I think at the end of the day people want to feel a sense of belonging. That is a universal human need and human experience. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you around how you found that sense of belonging across all these different cultures, across all these different identities that you have. At the end of the day how you're able to integrate that into your single sense of self too. Actually I've been through a whole journey with myself because I feel like I've been through an identity crisis not that long ago. I used to work at a Dutch company and I found myself after living in Madrid for a year. I came back to the Netherlands and my whole life in the Netherlands has been super Dutch. All my friends are Dutch, I speak Dutch. I think 90% of the time and the other 10% is English. I barely speak Spanish here. But when I came back from Madrid I realized that I was rejecting speaking Dutch at work. I remember everyone asked me, "Why don't you speak Dutch because your Dutch is super good?" I was like, "I don't know." I preferred English or Spanish because there was someone who spoke Spanish and I reflected on it for a little bit. I thought maybe I'm staying more into my latina side or my expats side and not that much into my Dutch side. So yeah, living here and speaking through a Dutch, a lot of people think that I'm half Dutch because my mom is Dutch or my dad is Dutch. They think I went to a Dutch high school or a school. At that point I was like, "Hmm, I am becoming a bit Dutch because people think I'm Dutch." I don't look Dutch but I sound Dutch and I think that when I went to Madrid it happened the other way around. I started connecting with my latina friends that were, you know, I met a lot of latinas and I was speaking my language in Spain. I was going to like Latin parties and all of the sudden the Latin version I had abandoned. I wouldn't say abandoned but maybe like I had sleeping for a little bit was all of the sudden awake again and enjoying being me and the one like the person I have been my whole life, you know. But I think nowadays I love that I've learned that I don't feel that a language identifies yourself or your nationality, you know. Like I feel a lot of people think, "Oh, because I speak Spanish or because I speak Italian I'm Italian." I feel like the reason that I feel I'm so open-minded is because learning so many languages has shown me that my language and my identity doesn't define me. So I don't need to stick to one group to belong, you know. I can belong to a group of Italians. I can also belong to a group of Dutch. I can also belong to a group of Germans and I think for me the feeling of belonging is really the genuine connection you can build with someone. If you, for me at least when someone has the ability to have deep conversations, vulnerable topics, you know, reflect about life, talk about our journeys and we find common points. For me that's a sense of belonging. It means someone shares my view on certain things and if they don't share the view they're open to understand my view, you know. So for me that is what belonging means. It's building our connection with someone that has nothing to do with your background but you can connect in that very moment. It's so beautiful and it's so true because I think we run the risk of being too connected. Humans tend to gravitate towards things that are like others which is great but I think sometimes in your two centered in a group that is just like you, you're not getting that like perspective and it's so important I think to step outside of your comfort zone, meet other people, be open to new experiences, be open to learning from where someone's coming from and learning from their perspective and how that's shaped because I think like one of the most beautiful types of connection and probably the deepest form is two completely different people being able to see eye to eye on certain things or to be able to have a shared understanding of a certain thing or connect over a shared passion. You know and when I actually reflect on some of my most meaningful friendships it's people that have completely different walks of life for me but we met through a love for yoga or through a love of the wellness space or through podcasting and in a way, you know, I feel like I've been able to kind of broaden my own identity too and see how much richer the experience of life can be when you are able to build relationships and connections with people in different pockets of life and in different areas. One way you can get that is through travel and through learning languages and another is through exploring different passions and meeting people through that and so I love kind of your definition on finding that sense of belonging because I think it's actually not just through being in a same group, it's actually through like dispersing yourself and being open to exploring and trying new things. I think for me the main, like the main takeaway of sense of belonging in my journey is that I've moved from a place of judgment to a place of acceptance. You know, people tend to judge when they don't even know what's behind it. And I think when you know people's stories, when you know what they've been through, when you know how they were raised, instead of judging, you say, "Okay, but this has a reason, you know." Why do they believe this? Or why do they act like this? You cannot judge them because they come from a whole different place than you come from. So I think at the end of the day, it's a very beautiful experience to see like, "Okay, I have the whole picture, so I have like an educated opinion on the subject. But if you never leave your group or your bubble, then you're never going to learn the real situation. And then you can easily judge and have an opinion. But for me, you know, it has taught me to be very empathetic. I can put myself in so many different shoes because I've lived in different countries. I know people who have had different situations as mine, who were raised different. And the moment that something happens or there's, you know, a situation where people have an opinion, I'm like, "No, but wait a second. There's more to it than maybe you don't know." So yeah, you know, I've been exposed to so many different cultures. I went with a friend from Jordan. I went to her house. She opened up the doors of her house to me and other friends. And it was one of the most amazing experiences. I got to see like the Arab culture from a very close distance. And honestly, I was in love with their traditions, the food, the sense of family, the hospitality, you know. And I came back to the Netherlands thinking like, "Wow, that culture has so many things that we can learn from, you know?" And so those Latin people and so the Dutch people, you know, there's so many things around the world that if you collect all these little pieces, you really have like a whole perspective you can have an opinion on. To your point around moving away from judgment to acceptance, it's cultivating more love, like within your heart for other people. And radiating that energy out, you know, not sure how interested you are in more of like the spirituality side of wellness. But there's this amazing researcher named Bruce Lipton. I don't know if you've heard of him or his work. There's also another thought leader in this face named Joe Dispenza. Yeah, I know him. I love him. Very similar line of thinking. He did a seminar in New York two weekends ago. And he talked a lot about the biology of belief and how we have the power to change our reality from all from, you know, changing the thoughts that are in our minds. And he was talking about love being like that highest frequency. And when you think loving thoughts and you live your life from a place of love, you attract that back into you. And it's just like this positive self-serving cycle. And so being in a place of judgment, it's like close-heartedness. There's fear, there's resistance. There's in unwilling to compromise and unwillingness to be open. But when you live from a place of acceptance, it's like a loving empathetic to your point, compassionate place. And I think that that actually, there's studies, there's research that shows that when you kind of are able to unlock the power of your heart, it has so many health benefits, not only to your mental well-being, but to your physical well-being. And this podcast is all about happiness and cultivating joy in life. And one of the strongest predictors to our well-being is the strength of our interpersonal relationships. Like this is a studied fact in positive psychology. So it's intuitive. Like if we come from a loving place, our health outcomes are better, actually. And we have more joy in our lives. And so I'd love to hear from you also how you've been able to cultivate joy in your life and has that been easier as you've been more culturally immersed with living in different places, connecting with different people. How have you found joy through these experiences? So for me, I think finding joy in daily life is like I said, connecting with different people. You know, I love learning where someone comes from, like what they did when they were a kid, what they do for work. And I would never, ever judge someone for their nationality or where they come from. In fact, I am fascinating by that. Like I can meet people from the Middle East, from Latin America, from Asia, from Europe. And no matter where they come from, I'm really like very interested, generally interested into knowing what they're into, like their beliefs, why they believe in that, why they believe in other stuff. And I love discussing topics like religion and equality. And you know, for example, I come from Latin America and I move to the Netherlands, which are so different in so many levels. And I think that a lot of my friends love hearing how my upbringing was. And all the differences that we have had in the past, you know. So I think for me, cultivating joy means learning languages. Of course, I'm not doing that anymore because I'm working full time and very busy. But I think I keep using them when I travel. And that makes me super happy. Like I was in Brazil and I could speak to everyone and I went to the favela with my boyfriend. And you know, there I realized that my experience was, I don't know, I was getting more of the conversation than him because I was translating into English. And a lot of things were getting lost in translation, whereas I was getting it directly from him. And the way he expressed himself and telling me about his background and stuff. So yeah, I think for me, the joy stands in conversations with people and not only a conversation of, hey, how are you? But really deep, meaningful conversations that lead to like deep topics, you know, deep topics that have a purpose in our lives. And why we do what we do. And yeah, I just love meeting these type of people wherever I go. If it's in a coffee place, the bartender or someone in the train or in the airport, like I really make friends everywhere because we start talking about the shoes. And then we end up talking about why his mom spoke Spanish at home, you know, I don't know. And then we end up connecting and I end up like they send me a message like, hey, I mean, I've served on this, grab a coffee and then we grab a coffee. So I think it's beautiful that you're open to like really connecting with someone, even if it's a really random interaction. Yeah, I could not agree more. And I would love to hear your advice for people who may be listening and are thinking to themselves, oh my goodness, this girl is fearless. She has no fear around approaching strangers or being open to talking to new people. Like I think that's a skill that people can call to me. And some people naturally have it easier than others. And I think you are naturally extroverted and open in that way. It'd be harder for others to approach strangers or be more open in that way or have that curiosity, that natural curiosity to explore and travel beyond just like, oh, I'm going to go to this pretty place and just take a little vacation, like to actually immerse themselves. So if someone's listening and they're like, you know, I want to be like her, but I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to get there. What advice would you offer for people who are maybe struggling to find those deeper connections with other people? Okay, so I have two advice because one is not enough. The first one is surround yourself with people that bring the best out in you. And why I'm saying this is because when you are surrounded by the right people, you are your most authentic self. And when you are surrounded by people that, you know, bring your joy, motivate you, inspire you, you radiate this energy and people feel that. So for example, we went to a terrace last Friday with my boyfriend and it was super sunny and absurd. And so finding a terrace is impossible. So we thought, okay, mission impossible, let's try it. We get to the terrace and we were just standing there and this girl walks up to me and she says, hey, you can take my terrace and there was a line of people waiting for it. And I was like, oh, that's so nice of you. So we took it and all of a sudden we started talking and then I asked her, like, are you from Scandinavia because I hear an accent. Yeah, I'm from Sweden, how did you know? And then we continued talking and at the end she left and then she ran back and she said, excuse me, what's your name? And I said, he meant, oh, nice to meet you. And it was such a genuine connection, but my boyfriend was like, it's crazy because I think people feel the energy and they want to also like, I don't know, interact with you. If you're on your phone, watching TikTok, you're not going to attract anyone to have a conversation. Like I read on a podcast, I listened on a podcast. A girl said, if you want to make friends, the best thing you can do is to go and sit at the bar and have nothing distracting you just sit there and start a conversation with the barman. So the people around you will feel like they can join because you are very open for it. So that's my advice. Like, be always open, smile, you know, be open to receive the energy and if someone asks you a question, answering a very genuine friendly way, you know, and you never know if the conversation will lead anywhere. But yeah, that's my advice. Just be yourself and surround yourself with people that make you feel like yourself. Very good advice, especially getting off your phone, because I think we use our phones as like these social crutches to not communicate with others. And it's funny because I actually made a TikTok a year ago. about why you should go to a bar by yourself and how that could actually lead to a very interesting night. And I was shared in anecdote. I was supposed to go to this bar to celebrate a friend's birthday and they were running late from their dinner. And so I had some time to kill and I didn't wanna go home to just come back downtown. So I figured, let me go and sit at this other bar by myself and just like, wait, see what happens and then eventually make my way to the birthday experience. And the bar that I went to was kind of like underground. So when I arrived, I lost cell signal. So I couldn't even be on my phone, even if I tried. And it was really uncomfortable for me 'cause I was just sitting there like, it's kinda empty-ish. Like it was 10, 10, 30 on a Thursday night. Like the bar, this place doesn't get busy until like 11, 11, 30, maybe even midnight. So I was kinda just sitting like, what do I do? And I ended up befriending these two girls that were visiting from Canada and they were just hilarious. They were here on vacation in the middle of their med school. Like, just so funny to get to talk to them and then they ended up like coming with me to the birthday part, like just crazy experience. So to your point, like get off your phone, actually talk to people around you. We kinda have to like work backwards. Like how the generations before us socialized, like tapping back into that because our phones as great as they are as great as technology is, like allowing for us to connect across the world. It is still such a barrier and like establishing those genuine, authentic in real-time connection. So I love all the advice that you shared. And as we wrap up today, it's been such a pleasure getting to have you here on the show. I wanna hear from you the answer to a question that I ask every guest that comes on the show. You may have answered it a little bit, but my final question to you is, what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins and joy every day? - I think in general, it's getting out of my comfort zone. I think the comfort zone is a muscle and you can train it to become stronger. So for me, when I moved to Europe all alone, when I was 17, I didn't speak the language. I had to do my whole life, my whole life, to get my whole life alone here in the Netherlands. I think the more you do it, the easier it becomes. And that's the same with languages, with making friends, with approaching someone. So I think my dose of endorphins every day is just getting outside of my comfort zone in any way. If that's with sports or with a language or with a person or doing something that I would never think of doing, I think that's my way to find joy on the daily routine. - So I know I said that was my last question, but I think I lied, 'cause now I have a follow-up one. And I realized we didn't even talk about Shanghai and moving to China by yourself. And it takes a lot of courage to put yourself in these situations where you don't know anyone, you're moving somewhere by yourself. And the irony is that I think a lot of people, even when they're around people they know, can feel a deep sense of loneliness. I've experienced it even in New York, a place that I've grown up, that I've friends at. Sometimes I sit down and I'm like, who are my friends? That sounds kind of crazy, but sometimes I have these feelings, or I just think it's even in a place as vibrant and as energetic as New York. It is easy to feel a sense of loneliness. And it's a whole different level when you're pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone and moving to a place where, you know, at the beginning you may feel kind of lonely. And the biggest irony here is that when I've done things like that, like for example, I moved to Bali for a month and I did my yoga teacher training without knowing anyone oddly enough, like spending all that alone time and going to a place like Indonesia by myself, I actually felt less lonely than sometimes how I feel in New York. And so my actual now final question to you is, any advice you'd have for people who are just feeling a sense of loneliness in their lives or want to take a big risk, but are afraid of feeling lonely if they move to a place by themselves without knowing anyone. Like how did you integrate? How did you go through those challenges? - So I think your most amazing experience is behind your fear always. So you have to cross it. And for me, you know, moving to the Netherlands was super scary. I remember I was very homesick. I was just 17. And I remember it was not the first time, but one of the first times that I had this feeling of extreme loneliness being far away from my parents, my house, my culture. But I think that once you get to understand that feeling and recognize it, it's actually amazing because once you're settled and you get to know all these people and experience the culture and the food and the trips, it's always worth it. So it's only being patient with yourself and just, you know, it helps you grow. Like in Shanghai, I remember I landed in China. I didn't have money. I didn't have internet. I had to get to work the next day. And I remember I got to my apartment because a guy picked me up in the airport and I entered my apartment and I started crying. And I thought to myself, like, what did I just do? I have no idea how to navigate this country. I'm all by myself. I don't know anyone. So in those circumstances, you are forced to be strong and to figure out life by yourself. You know, so the next morning, you can either stay in bed and cry or you can get up and get things done. So I was like, okay, bank account, cell phone. I have to open this and you know, I was like asking everyone how to get things done and people didn't speak English. So they were just like mimicking with their hands. And after like a month, I was like, wow, I'm settled down in a country where I don't know anything. I don't know the language. I don't know anyone, but I did it all alone. And I think that those experiences really help you grow exponentially. As if, imagine if you stay at home and in your comfort zone, then it takes a bit longer to grow. But if you throw yourself into the deep like this, you grow so much and yeah, it makes you stronger and resilient. - You become more confident because you're like, oh, I can do it. Like I can figure it out on my own. I love that and I'm just amazed by the experiences that you've had and the courage that you hold and this fearlessness that you choose to lead your life with every day. And I think there's so much that people can learn from from tuning into this interview through learning from your story. There's just a lot of wisdom that you hold and a lot of lessons that you've shared. So thank you so much for being here today. It was such a pleasure. Where can my listeners connect with you, follow you and just stay kind of connected and follow along your own journey? - Yeah, so I have an Instagram account. Kim epine da 10. I don't know if you want to write that on the bio of the podcast or if I should spell it out because my name is super difficult. - I will, I'll link it in there. - Okay, perfect. And I'm gonna be starting a newsletter soon where I'm gonna write about all these experiences. So I think it's nice for my, yeah, for people who wanna experience life a little bit out of the comfort zone to keep posted, keep them posted with the newsletter when it's out. - I will link all of that into the episode. Thank you, Gannett, was so lovely having you here. - Thank you so much. It was super fun to talk with you today. (upbeat music) Thanks for tuning into this episode of Everyday Indoor Funds. If you liked what you heard and you wanna continue to follow along, make sure to like, rate, review and subscribe to this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. If you wanna stay plugged into Everyday Indoor Funds outside of the podcast, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, and you can also drop your email to subscribe to my newsletter. It's the Everyday Indoor Funds Upstack where I talk about the interviews that I've done that month, any events happening in New York that I've hosted, and just a stream of consciousness of my thoughts. Thanks again for tuning in and reminder to keep spreading endorphins and finding the things in life that bring you joy. Until next time. (upbeat music)