Ep. 135 - PDA Teen Can't Stop Wrestling Dad

[MUSIC] >> Hi and welcome to the @PeaceParents podcast. I'm Casey and I'm here to empower you in your decision making as a parent of a demand-avoidant child. My goal is to share insights that will generate aha moments and support your connection with your child. I'm a mom of two amazing little boys, one of whom is PDA. And I've worked with hundreds of parents just like you to teach them how to lead their child out of burnout and find the clarity, peace, and sense of community they need. [MUSIC] >> Hi, everyone. I'm Casey and welcome to Parenting PDA Your Way. I'm a mom of two PDA kids and the founder of @PeaceParents. And once a week on Fridays, I coach a parent of a pathologically demand-avoidant child or teen to help that parent make progress towards stability and peace in their home. In doing so, my goal is to support them and you to practice new skills and bring non-judgment compassion and maybe a little humor to the trickiest of situations that we all face with our PDA children. Welcome to the mom that is joining us today and let's get started. >> Hello. >> Hello. >> Hi Jennifer, how are you? >> I'm nervous, but it's okay. >> Well, you're going to do great and there's no pressure, so it's just us. >> Yeah, I even like I've heard you enough that it's not too awkward, so. >> Awesome. Where are you tuning in from if you don't mind me asking? >> We're in Franklin, Tennessee. >> Okay, awesome. >> The weather is amazing. >> It is unseasonably warm. It is 70 degrees in the middle of November. It's very weird. >> Yeah. >> You're going to have a nice Thanksgiving. >> I love it. >> Yeah, sorry. >> Okay, I have your question here and I'm happy to read it or if you want to state your question, we can do it that way too. >> Okay. >> I met to first congratulate you on the publication of the research in the academic journal. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> I'm so excited for all of us. >> Yeah. >> I'm very excited to share that with the doctors and we are in school right now, so not the teachers, but yeah. I'm so proud of you and so thankful. >> You're welcome. >> Just wanted to say it real fast. >> Thank you so much. >> You can read the question. >> Okay, awesome. I'd be happy to. All right, I have it here and the question is we are having difficulty distinguishing between possible equalizing behaviors versus puberty and testosterone. When our 14 year old son insists on wrestling or whopping daddy after work every day. My husband has a health condition which causes him a lot of joint pain, but our son cannot understand this and wants this daily. We'd love to know what is going on and whether it's just hormones or equalizing. Okay, is there anything you'd like to add or provide more context on? >> I've sort of answered my question already, I think, but because I'm beginning to think that it's not an either or that it's just a maybe of both. But I'd love to hear any input because it's still very tricky and it's a matter of physiological, you know, and physical pain that my husband is going through every day. Or at least, you know, one to two hours as soon as right when he gets home from work. No break, no shower, he's a chef, he's working in the kitchen and so he likes to, you know, I'm lying to take a shower, but we're not able to do that currently. He's just having to go through this and I have been, I feel like the referee, you know, in a way I'm trying to be a buffer and trying to kind of mitigate the red or, you know, the activation by setting it. But even though I realize boundaries are not really happening, but we're just, we're struggling to figure out, you know, because you're always accommodating or activating the two shitty choices. >> Yeah. >> But I feel like there has to be a way we can sort of gently, you know, comment this without, you know, tipping the scale, you know, into meltdown. And so we're just, my husband is a big teddy bear. He's a big guy, he's not like frail or anything, but like I said, he does have a psoriasis arthritis. And it's really bad. So this is really, you know, he's, he's willing to do it, you know, he's a great dad and he's willing to go through it for, you know, for our stunt. But at the same time, I am just like, you know, don't hurt daddy, don't hurt daddy. You know, and he's, our son is like, I'm not hurting daddy, daddy's, daddy's bones do not hurt. Daddy will not go to the hospital. Or no, daddy does not need a shower, you know. And so I just kind of relinquish myself to the living room. This is all taking place in the bedroom where he mostly stays. So it's just hard. It's not the hardest thing that we do. It's just one of the things that's become a daily, you know, kind of sticky time where we're, you know, just trying to navigate, not upsetting him and giving him. He needs some input, you know, he needs socializing and dad is his best friend right now. And so it's just so hard to figure out how can we do this without hurting just dad and without upsetting, you know, dealing is our sense name. I'm finally saying that. Just how to get through this or maybe how to make it not last as long. We keep trying different things and I keep, you know, I'm the one messing it up because I'm in or I'm going in there and saying, okay now daddy has to take a shower. You got, you know, you're being too rough because it's, it's very physical and very kind of aggressive. But there's a white-hearted nature to it, but at the same time there's kicking. He wants to get on his shoulders and jump off onto the bed, squeezes his hands and I can hear, you know, and I hear sounds and so I think that sets me and so I feel like I have to go and, you know, help, you know, have to do something. So it's just, yeah, you know, I don't know, you know, I think it's a little bit of both, but at the same time, we're just trying to figure out what can we do to make this to lessen the impact on both of them. And me. Of course. Okay, so I, in to it, that there's a tiny bit of beating yourself up going on because you said, like, I'm the one messing it up, I'm doing something wrong. Okay, so a huge part for all of us, myself included, is experimentation and decision making, right, which are two things that most of us aren't trained to do as parents. Right. It's like, we're presented with like, this is the way you should do it for parenting or teaching or your child learning to read. And if they're not doing it that way, there must be something wrong with the parent or the child, right. And then we also have this idea about boundaries or rules where it's just we tell the child what to do and then they comply. And if they don't or a bad parent, right, but part of what we're all learning to do as parents is to first of all see this as a process of trial and error and experimentation that we're really figuring it out with our kids as we make a paradigm shift. Okay, so right now you've collected the data that once happening in your home isn't working for the family system on this particular front. Okay, so we have some data doesn't mean you did anything wrong. It just means you're experimenting and you reach the sicken point. Right. And then the second part of that is one of the hardest and I think probably the hardest actually things to do as a parent of a PDA child or teen is to make decisions around boundaries, which also relates to acceptance. Right, because you know Jennifer this early and experiment and it's experientially that when you have set boundaries with your son, he has activated and sometimes it probably hasn't been worth the cost to your family to set boundaries. Right. So what can happen is we get scared to set any boundaries because we are so afraid of activating their nervous system. And I went through a period like that too. So one thing we want to remember. I think there's like two skills we can bring to bear but before we do. want to pause and just hear if that what I said is landing with you. Oh yes, that's definitely. Yeah. Okay, so the two skills I want us to talk about if it feels aligned to you is the pdf, a little bit about the pdf lens and the accumulation of the nervous system. And then if you're up for it, we can go through a cost benefit together about this particular scenario and we can get creative and brainstorm boundaries. Okay. Sounds good. Okay, cool. Okay, so the first part with the pdf lens, I think a big part of the logic that especially people and professionals who don't live with a pdf child or teen don't understand is how cumulative everything is, right? So like every time his brain perceives threats to autonomy or equality, he has that nervous system activation and builds in his system, right? Like the water bottle. And so depending on where you are in your journey with him, it sounds like he's kind of close to his threshold. Yes. He is, we are toggling the line of almost, almost emerging from burnout. Okay. He's made very, very spread down. He's almost there and then puberty added, you know, popped in at the worst time, you know, of this journey because we have been, we've made such progress. And then this kind of started amping up, the hormones started amping up and it became hard to figure out, uh-oh, you know, you see, a part of it, I think, it was him coming out of a shutdown was, he was very internalized. Then he started to be kind of showing ex and more externalized presentation and it was weird to us because we hadn't seen that in almost two years, just, you know, quiet, not eating, not talking, not leaving the house. And now then he started to be curious and walking around and then he started to get aggressive and he would just kind of look like a wild animal. And so we figured this is puberty and we had to get some medicine because there was attacking going on. We can't have that. We just, you know, if you had pushed him to the floor a couple of times and we just can't have that and we don't want those memories of everybody, you know, having a big fight carrying up the house. So we had to get some medicine and that helped a little bit but still, you know, so I think that it was him coming out and being showing this externalized was part of the process that was a good thing. Like now he's coming out of, you know, inside, he's starting to be his, the way he used to be. But then it started to get to, it was, there was too much, you know, it was too dangerous. So we're kind of puggling the line of almost out of burnout but all this behavior is either puberty or equalizing. And the reason I think that it might be equalizing is because he will, every after we get him to stop and let dad have a rest, he says, can I sit on mommy's hutch? I have a hutch with vintage glass, you know, lots of decorative things that I collect and he wants to sit on top of it. He wants to get a pie anywhere up on top of the refrigerator, on top of the hutch. And so he's obviously wanting to get, you know, higher than us and we're aware of that. So that's always like the last, his last, you know, kind of grabbing it, sure I was like, wouldn't, I can't beat up on daddy. Can I now get up on the hutch? And he knows the answer to that might know that it will break or too big, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so that's what feels like equalizing, I think. Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, they're laughing and playing, but it's just, it's real rough, you know. And he doesn't try to do that with me. You wait for dad and then it's just like, you know, it's okay. So let's, yeah, let's talk about a couple quick sort of tips for you to think about like remaining in the pda lens. So hormones are real. And when we're using the pda lens, it sort of doesn't matter because we're suspending disbelief while we're experimenting that certain things are caused by hormones or manipulative behavior or goal oriented behavior. And we're just seeing everything through the pda lens because we try and distinguish of like, oh, this is hormone driven and this is pda driven and respond differently. Regardless, he's going to still have his pda response to the way we respond. So it's sort of like a disciplinary where we just, at least where we're in this period of working through the pda lens, we just sort of allow ourselves to just, regardless of what is causing the behavior, we're going to act as if it's always the pda driving it because that's all support you to stay sane, not trying to discern and to allow you to be consistent in the way that you approach it. Okay. And that makes sense. Trying to tease it apart is just mind blowing, you know, just it's the constant thing we've been doing. Okay. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So just rest you allow yourself to rest your own nervous system in brain. The second part is, again, hormones are real. Puberty is real and that's going to make everything more intense, right? But from a, and you talked about this already, I'm just going to put labels that are more academic on what you're saying, which is like, if he was internalized for most of his life or years, right? His nervous system pathway was more freeze or what's called dorsal vagal, which is like playing dead like his body's shutting down, right? And that has a physiology to it of like, slower heart rate, slower breathing rate, blood rushing away from extremities. Like it's a different physiological state than mobilization, which is more of that fight flight, right? Right. According to polyvagal theory, our nervous systems are hierarchical, meaning that when the brain is deciding on a subconscious level, which pathway to go down, if the child has been in dorsal vagal or shut down for a long time, and they need to, they're trying to get them back to safe and social, they will have to move up through mobilization. Right. So a lot of times families with internalizers go through a period where things feel worse, because there's more verbalization, there's more calling you names, there's more criticizing, you're parenting, there's more aggression. And so I heard you say like this is actually good sign because we're seeing parts of him come back, right? But we're seeing a state that's like hybrid, right? It's like mobilized, which, you know, we can be safe in mobilization and play, but we can also easily tip into the fight flight, which is why it's kind of precarious when he's ruffia with your husband. So here's what I'd love to do. I'd love to just pop over into our cost benefit framework and think about just totally out of the box together, all the things that are under your or your husband's control with respect to when your husband comes home from work. That sounds good. That's okay. Let me just make sure that, okay. All right. So the first thing we do is we talk about when we're working with a family about their specific decisions, which will be yours alone, Jennifer, and they might look different than what I would do with my family or any other family with a PDA child because you have a unique family and a unique life and a unique son. So that's where the place where we address it and our skill is in the constraints. So constraints are things that you can't change in the moment you're making decisions. So like, for example, he's not in school. That's a constraint for you right now, correct? Correct. Okay. Your husband works a physical, fixed physically taxing job, right? He's a chef. Okay. So he's already got stress on his body. So that's a constraint, right? Do you have other children in the home or is it just the three of you? We have adult children who have moved away. So it's just us. Okay. Is there, do you have any constraints? So that might be, you know, you're trying to do a part-time job or you have your own chronic health issues or childhood trauma. You don't have to share that with me, but just like things that might make your experience constrained in the way that you respond to him. Well, I'm very nervous. I'm very nervous, FISE as they say, 80 HD. I think probably on the spectrum also. So it's just very sensitive myself. Okay, anything else that might be relevant to this conversation, something that might influence or constrain your decision in the moment when your husband comes home and your son wants to rough house. I mean, I've just began to realize because I just started doing some, I heard that you are doing EMDR. So I started looking into that because I thought, hmm, I have a whole lot of stuff that I have never really dealt with and that's probably a good idea. I'd heard a little bit about it but never entertained the idea. So I'm doing something called brain spotting. So I'm starting to realize it's like a cousin of EMDR. So I've just started that a few weeks ago. So I'm realizing I think that I'm having maybe a trauma response to hearing, you know, listening and hearing pain or not being able to do anything about it. Feeling helpless if I can't stop the situation and I don't want to stop it. I just want it to be less. But it just kind of triggers me. It makes me nervous. And I'm the one that tries to control all the stuff. So I think that it's just making me nervous. So that maybe trauma, past trauma is being, you know, kind of uncovered a little bit here. Okay. Maybe. I mean, not awesome that you have trauma, but awesome that you're doing is working in gating self-awareness. So what we see is going to be influencing or constraining your decisions are things that are just are right now. Right? New scroll. It's not in school. Your husband works a physically taxing job. He has chronic pain in arthritis. We don't have other children in the home. You already in terms of your nervous system and brainwiring have a sensitive nervous system. Your nervous spicy, ADHD and potentially on the spectrum. And you're going to be even more sensitive to sensory input or sort of evocative cues of the past because you're in the process of doing trauma processing, which both sensitizes you and makes you aware of triggers you didn't even know you had. Right. Right. Right. Right. Really many parts. Really many parts. And many parts. Don't forget many parts. Let's put it in there. Absolutely. So, you know, as we're thinking about boundaries, which is going to activate him because that's the nature of the PDA neuroception. You just want to have this front and center that like objectively, it's going to be harder for you. And that doesn't mean it's the wrong decision or that you're doing something wrong. And we can also talk about like how it feels for you and what we might do about that. Okay. So now we're going to get creative. And what we're going to do is we're going to talk about just everything that's under you and your husband's control. Okay. We're going to focus on your son at all in terms of trying to change his behavior because we already know that that often makes the behavior more likely to occur. Right. Yes. Let's talk about the status quo, which is just what you guys are doing now. So it sounds like when your husband comes home, he goes right to rough housing in his room with the 14 year old. Is that? Yep. And how long do they usually rough house? About 45 minutes to an hour. And he's trying to make it, he's trying to stretch it out now because we had, it would be that amount of time. And then he would finally let up and let has been take a shower and let us get dinner and you know, kind of the our nighttime routine. But now it's kind of he's trying to prevent that's from doing that. So we might not get to dinner until 11 o'clock at night. So he's just is increasingly not wanting it to to end, you know, but he goes right in there and it's luckily and hopefully it'll be 45 minutes or at the most an hour, but it's starting to increase. So what do you do? What is your behavior or what is it that you're doing during this time period? I'm watching TV in the living room trying to not let it, not trying not to interfere because that's his daddy time and they, you know, my husband doesn't love that he's getting the crap out of him. But he loves to be with him and he gladly goes. It's a sacrifice to watch him make and it's just, you know, I'm amazed and I'm so thankful that he is not grumpy about it and he's just real happy to see him and I'm just waiting and kind of listening. I guess I'm being hyper vigilant, making sure that nobody is making sure that he's not getting too hurt and if I hear sounds like it, like he's something really happened, then I go back there and I'm like, hey, you know, we got to be careful. Daddy's bones hurt and you know, we got to let you know, let daddy take a break for just a minute and you know, that's usually met with no, just just play with me. Just get me, get me daddy, just get me, don't, no daddy, don't take a break. Don't take a shower. And so we just kind of, you know, very light, you know, calmly try to coax him, you know, away from the rough housing for a minute and that'll last a couple of minutes and then they'll start, they'll start again and then I go and sit back down and I'm like, you know, I'm just kind of waiting and making sure we don't have to, you know, go to the hospital or, you know, anything, I mean, that sounds like an exaggeration, but you know, his dad has been in the hospital a lot for different things and I know I probably shouldn't say that, you know, but he doesn't like to go to the hospital, Dylan, our son does not like to have to go see daddy at the hospital. So I say, we don't like daddy to have to go to the hospital. So we got to be careful with daddy and you know, and I say that, let's pause right there. Okay, so that's what you're doing, right? This is just a choice. It's a choice. Okay. Right. It's one choice. It's not the wrong choice. It's not the right choice. It's just a choice. Okay. Okay. So now we're going to explore other possibilities and we're not going to worry too much at this point. When we choose which two options we're going to compare, then we're going to evaluate, like, is this even possible? But right now we're just going to write out all potential actions that you or your husband could take. Okay. Okay. So one possibility would be the exact same thing except you are going to leave the house or walk to a place where you can't hear. Mom goes out of ear shot or to the store. So walk outside, calls a friend. She has to stay in the house. She puts on earbuds. Hey, that's just one possibility. Okay. That would be changing more of your behavior rather than dads. Right. Now let's talk about dad goes right to shower. Then takes 20 minutes. Then goes to play for 45 minutes and mom leaves the house. Dad goes right to 14 year old room and only plays for 20 minutes and uses a pillow to deflect direct rough housing. Mom either stays in home, continues to be hyper-vigilant or leaves the house. So there's plenty of variations that we can do. Dad doesn't go to his room to rough house but rather stays out of his room. And if son comes out of room key, he either uses pillows to deflect or he leaves the house or locks himself in a bathroom. We're just exploring everything. Okay. So basically what we're doing here is what are the places that we get stuck as parents And I think it's because we've been conditioned to think that. good parents just tell their kids what to do and then their kids do it or we establish rules and through incentives and disincentives no matter how gentle, eventually our children will comply. But what's unique about our experience is that we actually can't do that with our kids. And so we're switching the logic to be where is my agency, right? Even if it's really small, even if it's like 45 minutes per night, and then we write out everything that's possibly under our decision making power, which you know sometimes when we write out all the possibilities, some of them seem extreme or crazy or like we never do it other times it's like we've never thought about that as an option, right? Because of judgment or conditioning or even thinking I'm not allowed to do that because I know my child will activate. Okay? So then we pick the two that intuitively the parent is like let's compare these two. I never thought about it or these are the best of bad options. I'm going to pick these two and then we head over to the cost benefit method and we compare the impact on the nervous system of everyone in the family. So that would be the child, the mom, the dad, if there are siblings in the household, they are involved too. And then we either make a decision or return to the constraints. And what this does is often we're confronting things that we've been avoiding by going through this process. And it facilitates acceptance of the trade-offs that are present in our lives as parents. And it actually encourages an energetic shift behind the tactics of what we're doing day to day, which signals safety to our kids. So if that feels like something you want to keep going with, we can absolutely do it. Now is it okay if I read these or is now not a good time? I'm going, let me just see if I can get something to drink and get him back to him. No problem. This is very, very common when we're coaching, when we're in programs, lives. This is the life that we all lead. So it's not a big deal. We're just walking through the cost-benefit decision-making, which facilitates acceptance. So can I read these? Do you feel? Okay, I think it would be okay. So I've written down seven possibilities. There's probably more and maybe going through this exercise has allowed you to think of more than I didn't talk about. So are any of these feeling appealing? Yes, going to the store because we usually always have to go get something from the store. We live like literally two minutes. So we're always going to the grocery store and grabbing stuff. So that's definitely something that I could do that would be helpful and practical purposes and for nervous system purposes. I can go to the store instead of waiting. So we would be holding constant dad's behavior. It would be you deciding to leave the house and go to the store during that time period. Is that correct? Yes. Okay, cool. So we've got one option. Are any of the other ones like dad goes to write to the shower? He takes 20 minutes to come down from work and then he goes to play for 45 minutes and then mom goes to the store or reducing the time. And I know that he's going to try and keep doing it. But it's what you do in response. So removing yourself is potentially what needs to happen if that's the decision you want to go with. Definitely can try the do that go ahead and do the shower. Yeah, he tends to just go right in there because he knows that he's wanted in there and he really wants to give him as much attention as possible. But maybe going into the shower first will be a corruption. We can definitely try that see what happens. I'm not attached to any of these. I'm coming at it totally, neutrally and just trying to fulfill what feels like in your body is like, oh, that could be the idea. So, you know, we could compare number two with the status quo. We could compare number two and number three. We could compare something completely different. So I just want to check in with you to make sure that I'm not guiding you towards one that you think is right. Hello, no, no. I'm just surprised that we didn't, you know, try these before. Fall into like, I think what parents go through is like, they're steeped in the paradigm of traditional parenting. At least this is me. And then they learn about PDA and it's like, why can never activate their nervous system because it's nervous system disability. And then when we have to live, we have to make this sustainable for a family. And then it becomes, which is what you're doing now, working through the discomfort of sometimes activating the PDA child even while there's a baseline of accommodations. And that is like the next phase. It's like where you are right now, right? As he's coming in and burn out. So it sounds like intuitively two and three might be what you want to experiment with as a comparison. Does that sound right? Yes. Will you send me these? Absolutely. Okay, because I can't see too well and need some glasses or something. And I'm stubborn and I haven't gotten any glasses yet. So I can't really read it. So I'm just relying on my memory of what you said. But it'd be great if I could actually look at it. Yeah, I'm referring to refer to these. Absolutely. I'm going to do after this and it won't be part of replay. But yes, we will. And I'm going to read it out because also that we're listening on a podcast. So here are our options that we're comparing. Gen. First. First option is dad goes right. He continues to go directly to your child's room after work to rough house for approximately 45 minutes to an hour and you remove yourself by going to the store so that you're not getting the sensory input and hypervigilance of hearing going on. Is this thing? It's kept where delaying and going into the room by 20 minutes so he can shower and sort of ground or regulate himself before he jumps into rough housing. Right. Okay. So what we're going to do now is we're going to first talk about option one. Not the type of nervous system and benefit. The cost to you and the benefit to your nervous system and the cost of benefit to you. For 45 minutes to an hour and you go to the store. What do you believe will be the cost to your PDA's nervous system? And what are the internal no cost? Low cost, media or high cost. I think no cost for that. What about the benefit to his nervous system? It will be a great benefit because mom is no longer intruding because and I often get you know go away mom shut the door go away mom so he will love if I'm right there. It's re-rain. Now what about the cost to your nervous system of leaving for 45 minutes while this is happening? Is it no cost? Low cost medium cost high cost? I will be probably medium cost because I will be worried a little bit. Be worried about what is you know I'm not there to intervene and what is all the what is and but after all my husband take care of himself and so I don't know why and so intent on being the referee. It's just I'm just protective so I'll be a little bit nervous about what's happening what if you know but getting a break actually just leaving the house and going somewhere always makes me feel better. I usually like to go for a walk but I don't get it to do that a lot right now but if I do go for a little walk around the neighborhood or just go to the store and look at things then that's actually that's great for me because it's a break so although I'll be slightly worried I you know maybe I can just try to remember that he's a grown-up and he can you know take care of himself and I'm not you know I don't have to be the barrier. I don't know why and I didn't think of that. Yeah, I think it would be very helpful to me. And practical because I can get whatever we forgot for dinner and this made me look at holiday stuff and be you know. I feel like I'm nervous system. Look at how I love it. Okay, would you say then that it's a high benefit to your nervous system? I think so. I think so. Yeah. Awesome. Now what about your husband? What kind of cost is it to continue with this plan but with you leaving? He would probably love that idea because he doesn't want me to be upset and he also doesn't want him to feel threatened by my intrusions and it would probably work better if I left. So we're not quite yeah. So we're noticing but if we could just hone in on like the cost and benefit to your husband's nervous system of doing option one. So like there might still be a cost because he's still doing the rough housing but it might be there might be an even higher benefit or a equal benefit if he isn't also worried about you coming in. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm just giving an example. Oh, I know. No, no, you're right because I think that now I realize that me coming in there although I think I'm being helpful is you know adding to his you know anxiety because then he has to make sure he's not upsetting either you know that either one of us. So yeah. Wow. And I wasn't thinking you know about how what his nervous system was doing. So I definitely am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. This is why I mean I have to do this same method with myself. So it's not you know what we're doing it and our emotions are high and we're traumatized and like and I'm trying to control everything. Right. So it's hard to see clearly through that fog and that's why we're doing this together. Yeah. I think I'm saving him and really I might be just adding to his nervous system cost you know by by interrupting because I feel like you know he he's just gonna let him do whatever and he's not gonna stop him and but you know that's probably not true. So yeah. Okay. Wow. Just didn't occur to me until you said that. It's looking like a very good option for me. And for him. For actually. For your house. So that's good. But let's try and if you wouldn't mind just putting a little bit more formality to our thinking. And so is there still a cost to your husband's nervous system of option one of him going to the 14 year olds room right after work to rough house for 45 minutes to an hour. But with mom going to the store is there. There's. Call the cost. There's still. I know there's a you know well there definitely has to be a cost because you know he's a very you know he's a perfectionist and he's got work on his mind. So he's already been you know probably stressed out at work and putting out fires at work. So it's bound to be you know I know it's not easy for him. But he also but he also claims to enjoy you know being able to be the one to be to do the rough housing. Even though it's for his kind of. So and I know he loves that connection. So I'm sure there's a small cost because he's he probably wants to relax first and he's not able to but all in all that it that that seems it's looking like a good option. Then the less. So I've put low cost to dad is there a medium benefit to this for him or a high benefit medium. It leads medium maybe high medium to high. Okay so now we're going over to our second option and we're going to do the same thing with our second option and then I'm going to help us compare and see what our two possibilities are. Okay and then we'll pick one to experiment with. Okay. Okay. If you want or you can just be done and process on your own time there's no agenda. Okay. So option two is the same plan that does play for 45 minutes to an hour mom leads the house while that's happening to go to the store or a walk. However dad takes 20 minutes to himself to shower or regulate before he goes and does that. So that's the difference. So what would be the cost to your son's nervous system of that option? Medium to high cost. I guess he's literally been waiting all day because he doesn't have friends right now. So he's not getting you know and he's full of testosterone and I'm guessing and he's you know he doesn't have an outlet right now. We're not we haven't gotten to where we can meet up with friends again. So I know he's waiting. So it's kind of a high cost because that just makes him wait. I don't know how upset he would get waiting. He doesn't. He just waits kind of quietly. He's not like yelling or you know I will often tell him daddy's home. So I'm the one you know if maybe if I didn't say that and dad could just go shower for a few minutes if I didn't you know alert him. But I'm so excited for him to see his dad you know but and to let him know you're the way it is over but you know maybe we could push it back a little and I could not do that. Yeah so we could say dad goes right to the shower. It could even be 10 minutes. Yeah it's not and it's never really he doesn't take long showers you know but I bet you it would really he could feel a little bit better physically if he was able to do that. Maybe be a little more prepared you know just feeling clean and just you know a little bit of a pause. So great. I love it. So I adjusted our option to to include two differences which is maybe just we start with just 10 minutes and mom's behavioral change is not alerting your son to when he comes home. So what would be the cost to your son's nervous system of that? What do you think? I mean there may be a slight cost because he's very attuned to what's going on and he probably already knows when dad is home without me telling him. Yeah I can't believe I'm the one saying it when this is just so okay we're just we're just making it explicit and looking at there's going to be a slight cause because the way you know but then if I then leave and they have this time to themselves however rough it is without interruption you know maybe it would be worth the cost. Yeah we're going to address the comparison. The only thing I want you to think about right now is just with this option is it for this particular question is is it a benefit to your PDA or nervous system and if so is it no benefit, low benefit, medium benefit or high benefit of the second scenario that we live in. So the benefit with I guess maybe a low benefit maybe medium benefit medium benefit great. Okay now your nervous system like how is it going to impact your nervous system this difference okay so you're not going to say anything for the first 10 minutes you're going to perceive or neurosep that your son is waiting which can feel anxiety provoking and then you're going to leave for 45 minutes to go do something outside of the home. Now what is your the cost to your nervous system? It's a low cost but a medium benefit because I will be happy that he got to take a shower and have a small break so that will that will comfort me you know I think that will help me and that will definitely help him but for me it'll be a medium benefit. I'm getting confused. All good all good so my only question is so for the first option without the shower you said it was a medium cost to your nervous system so logically I thought there would be a slightly higher cost because she's also going to have to wait for 10 minutes. I'm fine with the waiting. So you think it's low and then you said benefit to your nervous system of the first option which is you just immediately leaving the house is high so would you say that the 10 minute wait and knowing that your husband got a shower is still a medium or would you say that? say something different. Now I think that that's a high benefit now. That's a high benefit from me I think. Cool. Now dad, it costs to dad's nervous system of option two. So he gets to shower on the floor and then he does the same amount of that. So we're looking at cost in our system of dad's no cost. Okay, now benefit. And that's a high benefit. Okay, we went through the cost benefit the first part of the method. Now what I'm going to do is just compare the cost benefit for each option and then read them back to you so we can hear and see clearly. Okay, so option one dad goes right to 14 year old room after work to rough house 45 minutes to an hour. Mom goes to the store. That is a net benefit to the PDA's nervous system, which means more benefit than cost. It is a net benefit to mom's nervous system and it is a net benefit to dad. Okay, so first options look at pretty good. Now second option is the 10 minute shower. We see a net benefit to the PDA or a net benefit to your nervous system and a net benefit to dad. So this is kind of unusual in this method. Instead of two shitty options is two pretty cool options that are a little bit better than what we're doing. So I think the next step here is just deciding if and when you would like to start experimenting with one of these alternative options for boundaries. And so your boundary is like sort of internal boundary. And then dad's like boundary of each option to his 10 minute shower. I think I think we should go with number two. We should try if that try that out. Awesome. Okay. Very kind. So it just sounds amazing to me right now that we haven't come up with that but that's what you're for. There you go. I mean the method we're just here walking. All right. So well, I'm excited. We know how it goes. So the next step is again experimentation. Right. You're going to try it out. Collect data on how it feels in your body for your husband. You know, see if what we outlined here and we'll send it to you is actually what plays out. Right. Right. Because sometimes we do something and we don't realize they're going to have, you know, a certain response. But giving ourselves permission to try something different with boundaries and see how it goes. So congratulations did awesome. Thank you so much, Casey. I'm very excited to try this and things have just been so cloudy and it's just been such anxiety. But now I feel like I, you know, there is some better options here and we'll see which one works. Yeah. Very cool. I'll let you know. Well, thank you for being vulnerable and being here with us. You're doing great work. You're son so lucky to have you both. Thank you so much. And congratulations again on your publication. And I can't wait to have it read it. But I'm going to go read it here in a little while. So I'm excited to read it. And thank you for all your work. And having gone through that for our benefit, you know, we reap the benefit of all your, the hell that you kind of had to go through. But so appreciate it. Oh, thanks. I appreciate you too. It was so nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Thanks. All right. Bye Jennifer. Okay. All right. Everybody. Thanks for being here. It was super fun to hang out with another mom and go through some decision making around boundaries. So I hope it was helpful to all of you and that you have a good weekend. Bye, everyone. Thanks, everyone, for being here with me at the At Peace Parents Podcast. This is your source for all things related to understanding, supporting, accommodating, and advocating for your PDH child. 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