Ep 131 - Maurice Mullins 50k Winner and on his way to the Euros - Luke Weldon

My name is Owen Flee and I welcome two episode 131 of the Trail Running Ireland podcast. In this week's show we chat with Luke Weldon, the youngest athlete to ever represent Ireland, that senior level and he has just got his hands in the green jersey again, qualifying in style for the European Championships this summer with a big win and one of the most iconic races on the Irish calendar, the Morris Mullen's 50KR and we are René Bourne from Running Coach Ireland back in the coaching slot to chat about the Norwegian method and trail running. Everyone get your running gear on, let's go! Hey guys, how are you? It's great to be back, which is all again and let's get straight into it today as we have a bumper show lined up with Luke and René and just before we call in René for our coaching segment, thank you to Paulo Callahan who became a patron of the show since our last episode and I think that could very well be the same Paulo Callahan and Apologising's Paul of it's another but I think that could very well be the same Paulo Callahan who is the first ever double Wichlo round finisher de legend that is Paulo Callahan that we had back in episode 8 so if anybody is planning a Wichlo round attempt in the near future do check out episode 8 guys and Paul gave us some great tips and some great insight into the Wichlo round so thanks a minute to Paul for becoming a patron and thanks a minute to all of our patrons who support the show every month and if you do listen in if you would like to make a small contribution it's never too late to pop over the Patreon and for the small contribution of the price of a gel per month it can help keep us on the airways but let's keep the show moving guys and let's call in our super coach René to talk all about the Norwegian method and how we can apply that to trail. René vork from running coach Jarlyn and René vork from Denmark René I'm sure your heart is just as broken as mine still is from those disastrous playoff results for the two of us how are you doing are you over it yet? No I don't think so I still am still in mourning here but I think the if my kids were playing soccer which they don't know and I think yours too I would have them practicing penalties at this point. Yes indeed yes indeed I think all I have got to look forward to this summer René is a Manchester United against Leeds in a friendly game in crowd pack of half raises so I'll see kind of get tickets for that note this week but listen let's get back to the trail running and we've got another cracker today René we're going to get back on talking about the Norwegian method it's a topic that we've covered before but before anybody switches off we're not going to do the same episode the same chat again Mario Spackens book is out now so he's been everywhere giving lots of interviews and there's a lot more detail out there about the Norwegian method rather than just the Instagram Reels and one-liners and headlines that we've seen over the last couple of years so today René it's not what is the Norwegian method it's what are we still missing and most importantly for our listeners what does it mean for trail runners? Yeah exactly so it was great to see him obviously put out the book and just as a quick intro for people who don't know who Mario Spackens is he was an elite athlete who along with probably Craig Martren who was an Australian run with the only two you could say you know white runners are runners from Europe and Australia America who could compete with the East African runners probably about 15 years ago you know before we kind of caught up on all the distances except the marathon where we're still catching up you know maybe we never will he actually talks about that in one of the interviews but he was a man who thought very deeply about training and he looked he said it was at a 10,000 meter world championship final where he looked around the room and there was just him and Craig and everybody else was from East Africa and he thought we have to do something differently because otherwise you know we can't match these guys for volume and for their upbringing so we have to find a smarter way to train and 5,500 lactate tests he claims later which is something he could do very easily is he's a doctor as well he he came up you know and he trained with this method that then was passed down to the Ingebricks and Brothers that probably everybody who was interested in running nose today and many others as well in Norwegian skiing in a Norwegian triathlon so this method got a lot of attention because it does seem to have really supercharged western running especially again but a lot of the attention and you know as some of the talk on our last podcast went into the whole you know the superficial format which is all about you know a lot of sub threshold running maybe double threshold format and so on and when you actually read his book and you hear him talk that's just the surface what's actually much more important is the underlying principles you know because it's not really just a training method you copy like a few weeks are sorry a few weeks you just take out of the book it's more about understanding the thinking that goes behind it and I think we on this we don't want to repeat everything he's just said on YouTube so I do invite readers or listeners if you're really interested there's topic do go search Mario's back on YouTube and listen from the horses mouth but we want to just take you through the principles and then talk about how specifically do we think it could help involve the training for trail running okay and right what is it that people are getting wrong because as you said lots of people have picked up on this in the last couple of years and I know a couple of very very good Irish athletes ready who have tried these double threshold sessions but while they got good results very quickly they got injured very very quickly as well and ruined a season or two as a result of getting this wrong so what is it you think that athletes are getting wrong yes so the main principle that he states very early on in the book is you ask yourself the question what's the highest intensity I can repeat at the highest possible volume week after week for the lowest possible cost and especially muscular cost which will come back to in a little bit that's actually the principle not the double thresholds you know so you can see if double thresholds is the big shining light that you see oh and you also if you don't know how to execute them because he goes into a lot of detail about how accurate you need to be with that to get it to work you could very easily end up doing the exact opposite of what's actually the underlying principle you know this extreme level of control so all this stuff the double threshold days you know the lactate testing the specific interval formats you know the three by six four by ten and so on that's just how the Norwegians expressed this constraint you know that he put into that line into that for one of the first sentences in their books and so we have to take the step back so we are not just copying the surface because then we will end up quite often you know like those athletes you talk about yeah so people are just saying that double threshold trying to copy that trying to do that but maybe they don't understand what's underneath it all yeah so when you understand it really the method is a constraint is so it's it's the thing telling you what you can't do so you can't consistently train above threshold that's one of his rules because the moment you do you the way he phrases it's a very interesting phrase is you lose control of the recovery curve that's the phrase he uses but that also means your recovery becomes unpredictable essentially so the moment you go over this kind of soft real threshold intensity that you very specifically identify for yourself you don't know that your legs are totally bounced back after one day of easy running it could be two days could be three days four days five days and then you get into these vicious cycles all the time so you lose control of what he calls the repeating mechanism and it's the repeating that is the whole point of the system yeah so to use a phrase running that we've used for many many years train don't strain but this actually turns that train don't strain into a proper very functional very successful actual system yeah I actually when I look back at how we used to train Lidiax we keep because it was Lidiax was a trained don't strain if you look at his exact basic conditioning week it actually had a lot of similarities with how you do it properly Norwegian modern week the only difference is that more of the sub threshold work is split into repeats whereas in the 50s and 60s they still thought continuous training was better but other than that it was actually very similar so the problem with train don't strain is it's a great phrase but it leads a lot of room for interpretation you know most of these phrases do so what back in the saying in the book is always a bit more precise you know say he says manage the cost of your workout so precisely that you know exactly what the week will cost you and you can do it again the next week you know so it's and he was apparently he was I think he was an engineer or something before I became a doctor you know so that's the way they think about everything right this yeah try to solve it right he sets out six principles I think and he's very clear that those six principles they all have to be there Yeah, if you take any one of them away, he thinks the whole model is compromised basically. So, you know, that's like thinking, okay, sub threshold intervals two or three times a week, ideally as dobles, that's the method. But no, one of the biggest of the six principles is that the muscular system is the primary limiter, not the heart and not the lungs. So we go back into that limit more. The second is accuracy over variety. So you repeat the same sessions, more or less, until you can measure improvement rather than constantly rotating the stimulus. Because whenever you change the stimulus, you give yourself in any noticeable way, you know, and that's something that happened a lot in later years because there was a focus from many influential coaches and also fitness systems, you know, like CrossFit and so on. That's all about variety. That's all about new stimulus and also we can get bored. So we just do something new. But actually, whenever you do that, you lose again to use that phrase, you lose control of the recovery curve. So that's a key one, you know, and then the interval format as your cost control tool. So it's you split the work because not because you need the rest, but because the short abouts at the same intensity, they cost less than if you do it without the break. That means you can do more of it, you'll recover faster and quite often the average pace will actually be slightly higher. Yeah, and the muscular limiter point, Rene, that's the one that doesn't get enough attention. We hear it all the time. Ashley said, "Oh, you know, the lungs were good. The fitness was there, but the legs were just sore. The legs just couldn't reduce the speed or the distance that I wanted. The muscular limiter, that's the point that doesn't get enough attention, Rene." Yeah, I'd love to dig into all six principles, but it's a bit much for one podcast. So we'll dig really into this one because I think that's where most of the potential innovation is for trail running. But you know, back in the uses, an example of cyclists, you know, that the average elite cyclist trains 25 to 30 hours a week. You know, and an elite runner trains maybe 12 to 15. And that means that gap is not because the cyclists are metabolically superior. It's because the muscular cost of running is much higher. So cycling is low cost for the muscle and running isn't. So that stops you doing. So that means that is the constraint because if the muscle weren't the constraint, you could do 25, 30 hours a week if you had to time, obviously. Yeah. So the ceiling isn't how much you can train, except what your legs can handle, not what your lungs can handle. Not even what the head can handle. Rene, we'd all love to be able to do double days a couple of times a week and do massive big mileage and volume, but it's not to do that our lungs, it's not to do what our head. It's what the muscles in the legs can handle. Yeah. So that means that question of how hard should I train in some ways, it's the wrong question. And what's the right one so many? Yeah. So it is, what is this training session doing to my muscles? And how can I absorb it? Yeah. And this is where Scott Johnson comes in, isn't it because he's been making a very similar argument from the mountain running the trail running side of the teens for years now. Yeah. When I was listening to Bach and then I thought of Scott Johnson, you know, he wrote training for the uphill athlete. As we know, he trains with craft and his Tom Evans. So he's seen as one of the biggest innovators in recent years and speaks a lot of muscular endurance as the primary limiter for mountain and trail runners, you know, not your view to not threshold in the classical sense that we would think about it in road running, but rather it's that ability of your muscles to absorb the repeated climbing and descending over hours on technical ground. Yeah. And then that maps right on the work, bacon insane. Yeah. So he says that what he kind of adds to what Scott Johnson is saying, and I think where we can probably refine, I think it's been arrogant to say, you know, and you're trying to refine someone who's who's trade these people, but you know, you can always evolve. So I just want to speculate here and everyone hopefully listening can you can go and test it, you know, is that I think he adds that the constraint of your muscles, the key is how you develop that constraint. So Johnson says, you need to build this muscular endurance, but Bach and adds to that, yeah, but you only in a way that is predictably repeatable because heavy muscular work can be very, it can create these very unpredictable recovery windows as well, you know, where your legs might be super heavy for three, four, five days after. And that's something actually Scott Johnson said I listen to a talk with him that he recorded this week with someone I forget who it was. He actually said that, you know, he said he now only recommends you do these early in training the first time, because your legs can be really tanked afterwards. So if you do them very close to your races, it can mess up, you know, your final training for the race and imbalance that. So unpredictable recovery is an enemy, right, because it breaks the ability to repeat consistent performances. Yeah, it's a great phrase when an unpredictable recovery breaks the repeatability. I mean, you just can't hammer the heels and call it specific preparation. It just won't work. No, because you can't recover from it in time to do it again as often as if you just could, if you could apply the same level of kind of anal control that they do in the properly executed Norwegian method. So you could say a potential synthesis that we will dig into more is that target your muscular endurance as a limit if you're trail and mountain runner. Yes, but develop it through a lower cost method that still is enough to create a positive adaptation. So for most trail runners, that means sub threshold work on the terrain where you're already paying a muscular cost, which is mainly any hill or trail run you go on, you know, where you can feel. Yeah, there's a bit of work involved in being on this course, regardless of the pace, not as a separate strength block on top of an already hard week where you're doing lots of hill runs. Yeah, so one dose is set of two. Yeah, because that's actually, you know, so one, you could say purposeful, slightly uncomfortable, but highly repeatable dose. But a good example is we've given some advice on this podcast that, you know, to add strides, you know, on various days because to keep a bit of, you know, good running form, running economy elasticity. And also we've talked a bit about strength training, the best way to implement it. When it comes to strength training, back in agrees with what we have always said, which is try and put it on the same day where you're already having a heavy workout because then you can properly recover the day after. Because what happens is when you put strength training on your recovery days, it becomes half baked. So and he's very against that. So he says, if you do strength training on the days where you're trying, just to take a step back. So whenever you do an easy run, you're you're lowering what he calls the muscle tone. Whenever you do high intensity work, you're increasing the muscle tone. And the key of having bouncy springy legs that feel great whenever you train and not get injured because your muscle tone builds too high is that you stress it lightly with these kind of very controlled sessions. And then you have a proper easy day in between, you know, about 70% max heart rate. So kind of more so than so on too, really. That takes your muscle tone down again so that you feel great, let's say, on the Thursday. And then you do the same thing again and you keep repeating that where's a lot of runners, what they do, obviously, they either overcook the easy run. So that means the tone stays up. And then on Thursday, they are already in a vicious cycle. The next session is compromised, but you can make two other mistakes. So he considers it a mistake to put strides on those days because he says it increases the muscle tone. There's nearly no proven benefit of doing it. That's worth that. So if you have to do strides, do them as part of your existing session. And the same with the strength, do not put it on that recovery day, put it on the day you're working. And then the easy day is real easy. But for good runners that have a lot of kind of volume already, it could be 60 or 80, 90 minutes, but it has to be proper easy. And then the tone will come right down. Yeah, yeah. And let's talk about Jim Wumsley, Rene, because Jim Wumsley has been saying that there hasn't been enough innovation in trail running. So we can probably have this conversation, this great in in cypher conversation about training based off what back in the saying, without bringing Jim Wumsley into the equation. Yeah, it was something that I heard somewhere as well that he had mentioned this comment. And I think it was worth putting into this because he's saying that in trail amount running, we haven't been as innovative as road running and cycling. So he was pointing out specifically to road running, then a region method has really helped, you know, from a training site. And we know there are things outside training that are also helping. And in cycling, as we see now with, you know, the way Pogachar and Vingegorn, all these are racing. There's a lot of innovations, not just in training, but in training as well. And cyclists always really at the forefront, you know, always trying to find something new. And his part was he felt we are still on the upward curve in trail running. And he thinks times are still going to go down, although we've seen a lot of course records go because okay, faster runners are coming into the sport. That's part of it. But also Jim Worms, the answer got Johnston feel we haven't been smart enough about trail running. We're just out there day after day, often, you know, we hammering the muscles on the trails. And it's not targeted enough. It's not it's not smart enough. And but it's understandable. He says it's because trail running, the identity of most trail runners is about freedom and natural movement and free expressions just being out on the mountains. But they feel it can be an excuse not to think carefully about the training you do, you know, and try and control it a little bit more the way the Norwegians would do to actually. actually get better results in your races. - Yeah, and of course, I suppose Roadrunners have been ivy on about different training methods for decades and trail running, it's still a relatively new sport for the masses as well. So it's only maybe getting these deep conversations on training methods over the last couple of years. - Yeah, and you can see Scott Johnson took the ideas from mountaineering. We've probably, there's ideas coming in from cycling. Now we have ideas coming in, obviously through Norwegian method from road running. And it's kind of giving us a framework to say, the muscular cost framework is gonna be the starting point for the next generation of hill running training. The repeatability constraints so that you feel good and springy and you can repeat your efforts every second day or so, being super precise about what easy actually means. So none of that is complicated on paper. But it requires that you really think about your training and not just log miles and log vertical. - Yeah, and let's bring it back to the listener, any as you like to do in the final segment of our chat. What does this actually look like from a practical point of view? What changes can a trail runner look to try and make who wants to take this conversation seriously, apply what back in is talking about and ultimately get more consistency with their training and therefore better results in their races. - Yeah, so you reclassify your sessions basically by the muscular cost, not heart rate. So that means you decide what's hard and what's easy. And then you ask, well, this run I'm gonna do, the terrain I'm gonna do, what's it gonna do to my legs, how costly is it gonna be? And that means if you are, you can then consolidate that load when terrain is already gonna be a stressor. So that means if you have a hill run planned or you're running on hilly ground, that's actually a session. Even if it's an easy run. Because if you were to measure the impact, the muscular cost, your heart rate might say so and one or two, but the muscular stress is actually a harder session. So that means don't add another threshold block on top of that or treat that as, oh, this is my easy recovery run tomorrow. I do my heart session. So that means if you do have to fit in quality work, like zone three intervals or whatever, fit it into that hilly run. The same way you would put strides together, let's say with the threshold session, the same way you would put your strength work on the same day as your sub-threshold session. You don't, so then the day after you protect your body with something that's really flat and low cost. Because that means you, all of the stress is on the one day muscle tone goes up. Next day you normalize it, first day you're ready to go again. Your leg feels really nice and springy. So you're basically trying to stray away from making your easy days like moderately hilly and conversational. They have to be kind of flat short, really restorative. And if you try that for a period of time, I think you'll see it. You're going to get out of that loop that a lot of us are stuck in. There's something back in talks against a lot. He says that we all think being an endurance run is about having tired and heavy legs all the time. And he says, it's not the case. It was never the case for me once I got into this. Your legs should feel good and springy most of the time. And the test to see if the training method is working for you, the test is simple. Yeah, so let's say you do a Tuesday, right? You do your hill work out whatever it is. So if you arrive at Thursday, you did plead it, you know, and it feels really like survival. Then the model isn't working. That means whatever you did on the Tuesday was not controlled properly. You need to dose it right back or dial it back. Or your easy run, let's say if you did it on the Wednesday, was you run too fast because you didn't lower the tone successfully. So it's not a method about training harder. It's really that thing we speak about all the time consistency. It's about being so accurate with your application of load that consistency becomes really simple. Yeah. And it just kind of makes us think of a new question, isn't it? The question that we normally ask is, how hard should I be training over at the course of the week? But that isn't the question that we need to ask anymore, I don't think. No, like we mentioned earlier in the podcast, right? So it's more about what, you know, don't think so much about, oh, yeah, give this big stress or anything. It's got to really give me a kick forward. Think about, is this actually something I can repeat week after week without going into a negative cycle? Because of it, you know, I mean, and that's the reason why in this method, you're not allowed to have a lot of work above the threshold because you lose that control. If you can find the right sub threshold zone, then, and you stay there, even for hill runs, your body generally will allow that. I think there's two things we should cover, and the next one on is, let's dig into the other five principles, apart from the muscle tone. Let's talk a bit, this thing he calls the golden zone, the sub threshold. What is that actually? What should that feel like? And what field test does he suppose? Now, if you want the answer tomorrow, you can order the book, you'll probably get it within three days, but if not, you have to wait a few weeks. I think that'll help a little bit. And then talk about heart training. How is that actually implemented? Because he doesn't say in the Norwegian method that you should never, ever do it. But he has a very specific advice for how you drip feed it in at just the right time. So it doesn't, you know, create all these problems and that we have. And he also has a bit of advice for how far can you take this whole, you know, focus decisions on an interval format? If you're going all the way up to marathon and all trust and stuff like that, he has some very specific things to say there as well. So that's probably enough for a whole second podcast. I hope at least this gets people started and gets people thinking. Yeah, and the big one there, Rene, for me, there's just that last point at the end. It's not how hard should I train. It's what do I do at my training that it can be repeated every week? And I was only talking to a very successful trail when I there a couple of days ago, Rene, and I said to him, well, I had his train and going, said, oh, not really much happening. I'm just kind of, you know, running at the same pace every day. And that's what I'll be doing from now until a chameleon in August. And what that is for that particular runner is it's because he's preparing for a 100 mileer. It's nothing, Rene. And he worked close to even an aerobic threshold. It's all kind of just above that aerobic threshold where he's going to be racing out. So he's not going to take any risks when I'm into the work or a temple work just under trails, under maintenance, and lots and lots of work around that aerobic threshold. And it's worked very, very well for him in the past. He's won one of those big races in Chameleon. So yeah, he'll be just looking for that consistency between now and August Rene. And he won't be training. He'll be training a lot of miles and a lot of volume, but he won't be training hard. Yeah, no brilliance, you know, it's a very old principle. Really, but now we just hopefully we have a little bit more of a template for people to work with because I think that the difficulty is doing it. You know, you can hear this over and over again. And then you get out and you do your session and you don't control it. You know, you really have to buy in at a deep level or you need to bring some really strict coach, you know, who stands there tapping on the stopwatch. It's hard to remember. It's actually sessions, isn't it? It's very, very hard. And especially if you get a little bit bored, but yeah, look, I hope people can start thinking about this. And then we'll dig in and a little bit more detail in the next one. And maybe to talk about what the weeks could look of because I think when you talk through it, you can see it doesn't have to be that boring. And it's certainly more interesting than if all you do is just easy running all the time, you know, no sessions, nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, OK, Rene, thanks so many, Rene, look forward to our chat in the next two weeks. Time may take care until then. All right, talk to you. Bye, bye. Our special guest this week is somebody that is full of talent and positive energy. He is the youngest athlete to ever represent Ireland at senior level. And he has just got his hands on the green jersey once again, qualifying in style for the European Championships this summer with a big win at one of the most iconic races on the Irish calendar, the Morris Mullens 50k. Luke, you're very, very welcome to the trail running on and podcast mate. It's a real pleasure to have you on, especially after such a big, big win, the last week in the Morris Mullens Ultra, one of the highlights of the Irish trail running calendar. Luke, you're a great man for the one, Liner's, and I might just quote one back to you that I picked up from your social media. It was a good day to have a good day last week, very late. It wasn't a good one, but thanks so much for having me on. The podcast, I've been a long time listener now. So yeah, it's a real honor to sit down and have a chat with you today. I've listened to many, many of the episodes on Weekly, Easy Runs, Weekly Long Runs. Just listen to what the people in the trail on and see in Ireland have to say. So yeah, thank you. No, I'm brilliant, Luke. What a way there last week to have your first IMMRA win. You've won races before. You've done the double in equal trail, for example, in 2023 and '24, I think, Luke. This was your first IMMRA race win. And what a way to do it in the trial race for the senior European Championship team going off to Slovenia now in June. Talk to us about the big win. build up to the Maris Lone's Luke, I presume that this was the big target for the first half of the year before before your championships. Yeah, I think when a trial race come along and the calendar, it's any athletes' main priority. It's the main goal. It's the race that you want to peak for your first initial peak in the year. I started basically after, I can't Frank at the World Champs last year, I didn't have the race I wanted there. I knew that this could potentially be the trial for next year's, this year's now Europeans. It happens the block started in mid-December in those dark, dreary winter months. I'm on my race, the archivetrician, Marathon there, at the end of January. So that was okay, it was a good race to start the year with, but again, racing in January is hard, finding out fitness for especially that length of race. It's challenging and I didn't feel like I raced the best of my ability there, so I again had a bit more fire under me to push on a bit harder in the next part of the block towards the Maris Lone's. From there I had another month and a bit of solid training, or went well, I went away to Spain for two weeks in the middle of February. I just basically get away from the rain here. It was a place called CalPaces, I had a cyclist there, I went there with friends, he was doing a lot of cycling, I was running. It just worked out really well, came back here. Even though the training I was doing in CalPaces was the exact same I would do here, I just felt like I had really pushed on in those two weeks, carried that fitness forward. Then, yeah, Saturday, two weeks going out, just hit all the slick on the day, and it was one of those really, really nice days. In the case people don't realise, Luke, you're still very young, what age are you now? Twenty-one now, yeah, twenty-two this year in October, so. Yeah, I did. Twenty-one, twenty-two, and within the trial race, not for the uphill only, not for the classic up and down. This is within the trial race for the big distance events, for four hours, water running, forty plus kilometres. So, what is it that is attracting you to the longer distances, to make the Irish senior teams for the longer distances, at such an early age, and we can get back to the specific training for the Marsmulls now. But, yeah, it's unusual, Luke, isn't it? Normally you would see maybe the younger men's and the trial winners on the shorter races first, but no, you're happy to knock it out with the lads with ten, fifteen years worth of experience. And you've been picking up the results and on the way, as I mentioned, you know, you've won Eco-trayer twice. Again, not the shorter distances, you won the 30-1km race twice, and now you've just won the four-hour Marsmulls. Yeah, it's definitely not the typical way of getting into the sport. I think it was, I found out in 2023 I did a Sky-Runner World Series race out in Italy, and I found out from that race it was 23km long, that this is really while I'm better at. I had done trials previous under 20 trials for British Irish teams for Eurochamps and I was always at the back. I was never able to keep up with the really fast guys that would come from the like to the track at under 20 age. They would always get that head start on me, and I just wasn't able to make it up. So, I found that the longer distances you've got a bit more time in the race, and if you run them smartly, if you put in the training, they're also manageable. And I think while I was worked out really well with my coach, Julia Davis, now she always has me going into races, feeling really fresh, feeling really confident from a block just because the race is 50km. It does not mean that you have to run 100 miles in a week. I'm not running nowhere near that, but on that day I am able to run because I put in the specific training for those races. I think that's the thing. I think it's something that younger age people shouldn't be scared of, is the longer distances. I think if you just play them smartly, you can race them and you can race them really, really well. Yeah, it's great to hear it really is, because as you said, some people might be put off by not getting on the podium or winning the shorter races. Maybe go to the road or go to the track or leave the sport altogether, but listen to your body, find out what you're good at, and then just put in the hard work, and that's what you're doing. The body is handling the mileage, Luke, isn't it? It's been three, four years now that you've been consistently not going to have big race results and culminating in the 50k win there last week. It's actually handling the mileage very well. Maybe let's go back to that for a second. You mentioned that you're not doing massive, big volume and mileage over the course of the week. Talk to us about the lead up to Maris Mullins and what that looks like. Yeah, so it's a accumulation of running, and so all of it's on the trails. I do a few, like, one kind of speed session on the road a week, and then on the bike as well to bring up that overall hours of training. So I think it's an average or maybe the average is right to range 12, 13 hours a week training. So it's not a huge amount, but yeah, it seems to work well for me. And I definitely think because I am just that bit younger, my body is still developing, and I have to give it that time to be able to handle the miles. And I found that what actually we have to be fittest is the consistency in the work. There is no point of running 100 miles one week and then not even hitting 30 miles next week because you're just so knackered from that previous week. It's just about building every week week on week and trusting in your training at the end of the day because if you stand on that start line and you know that you have trained to your best ability. Put in the work that you know that you need to put in well, then anything cap on the day of the race. Yeah, and you mentioned that you do one speed session a week. What does the one speed session look like? Is that just you know cruising along on the flash them to break head or not break head on break from and had or are you doing one K reps and 400 meter reps. And that's just your speed session look like because you're absolutely right. It is important to have that speed session and to get your podium said to win your sprint finishes like you did a couple of weeks ago in fairness to get a podium. I think was it over in the UK and one of the races there. Last year we focused a lot on the shorter so more like 10 K specific track sessions and this year we've kind of gone towards more like the marathon specific sessions. So even on the Tuesday before Mara Smullens I ran six by five minutes at marathon pace but it was like a comfortable marathon pace that I wasn't pushing it but it just gives you that confidence for that longer race. So yeah, there's been a bit of a bit of testing seeing what works, seeing what my body responds to the best and again keeping that speed in the legs because you go to the world, you go to your pains. These guys that are winning these races, they are all running no matter if they're running 100 miles or if they're running the VK, they are running a 30 minute sub 30 minute 10 K in case. So these guys are quick so like just because the race gets longer does not mean that you can afford to get a bit of the story you have to keep that speed in the legs. Yeah, and apologies I'm just checking my notes here and it was a great sprint finish that you won in Austria not in the UK wasn't it? Back last September we got on to the podium, it was a great photograph. Literally on the line to beat your competitor that day, which looked like a great race and that was after 24 kilometers of racing, you still had that speed in the legs, congrats on that one. So look we've covered a speed maybe element of it. Talk to me about the long run in getting ready for it more as Mullens. It's a chat sometimes that I have with the athletes that I coach myself that you know is the long run over the weekend. Is it just one long run where you know you're you're working up towards two and a half three hours then onto four hours. You've got the potential then to go on to double days maybe tri hours on a Saturday, tri hours on a Sunday. At what stage are you at for your long runs because just like what you said which are weekly mileage. I'm sure you've had to maybe resist the temptation to maybe go too long on those long ones in the early years as well. Yeah, so for the Mara Smollens block my longest long run was three hours and it was all on the route of the Mara Smollens. So it is long, but it's it's again like that that session was purely just a time on feet. I'll have another long run that could be two hours, but 45 minutes to an hour of that long run is at a steady race pace effort. So it's getting used to again running at that little bit faster during the longer run. And I'm very, very lucky to train with two like the best athletes in the country at maintenance and running and the cloak and Martin McConnell. So I am definitely in the midst of two top top class performers. So I learned a lot from them over the years. It's actually only in 2024. I started running with them and it was just about keeping up with them. And I was definitely wasn't able to talk to them. They were chatting away to each other and as time has gone on, I've got a bit fitter. So now we're just able to have chats and go for a long run and discuss things for what two, three hours of the mountains. And I think I Sunday can't get much better than that really. Yeah, it's great to hear Luke, that you are controlling those long runs. And you know, you cover it to 50 kilometers and Mars, one and four hours. But yet your longest run was only three, I think you said there. So I think it's a great lesson for the listeners, isn't it? Just like maybe with the road marathon, we don't need to cover necessarily 26 miles in our training. Nor do we need to cover the full amount of time that we're hoping to run on race day. It's about just building slowly. And as we said there, getting to that start line and fresh and ready to race, which it did so well. And talked to us about the race itself. Luke, he had a great battle with your training partner. Edna, he was just less than a minute behind you in the end. Was it a sprint finish over the final couple of kilometers with Edna? Or how did the race pan out? And we went off quite hard from the start. We knew that the race was really run over this year with them, with Jeyes and all and not being in it. And there was a group of four of us who went off and ended and kind of got a gap. Three, two or three minutes ahead of me, most of the first half of the race. And then coming back from Glencolin towards Cron, we caught up with each other then and ran with each other through Cron. And then just before the ride rock, I put in a little bit of a surge. I felt very strong with the climbs on that day. So I held that up until the small little single track around Jeyes, where I unfortunately got the worst cramps I have ever gotten in my calves, my keelies up to my glutes. So that was not fun. And I tried to run them out and then caught up from me there. He actually put 30 or 40 seconds into me then. And then I managed to kind of run them off because then it goes back down towards Balasad, down the downhill. So I managed to catch him and basically 800 meters out from the finish. There's a small little slime, which is 45 seconds to a minute effort. And I was like, you know what? Just put it in here. It's all downhill to the finish after this. And that's exactly what I did and it paid off. So yeah, I came over that line and I was looking back at photos. I didn't realize how ecstatic I was. But yeah, I think it's just about expressing the emotions that I've seen put into it. It's racing at the end of the day. So basically a lot of your time, a lot of your effort into the training that if on a race day comes together, it's about just enjoying it. And what a prize as well, Luke, that pretty much to know that you're guaranteed to be getting on the plane for the European Championships. And I agree in Jersey, you know, when I know there's, there's all these big fancy race series out there and all these big, big trail running races all around the world. But there's something very special, isn't there coming home for a second turn in a trial race, guaranteeing your spot on the Irish team for a major championship? Yeah, no, it's something that it will, it will never get old. And I think the day that for some people, if it starts to come a bit like they don't have that drive anymore to get that I have to pass. Maybe it's time to hang up the boots because again, representing your country, I think is the, the biggest honor you can have. So I'm extremely grateful and happy for the opportunity again to be given to run for a year. Yeah, and Luke, talk to me about how you manage that cramp in the race because that sounded potentially, you know, a game ender for you. But, but you managed it okay, did you, I don't know, did you just slow down the pace, did you get some salt tablets into here, did you get some fluids into here? How did you manage to get over that very significant cramp that you mentioned? Yeah, I am, it's still being a struggle for me. It's just the one bit to this 5GK racing I haven't yet nailed even in the trials for the World Tramps. I got the same thing 5Ks to go that, yeah, it was just more about I slowed down a bit. I hyped today and I luckily it wasn't as bad as I thought initially. My fueling throughout the day went pretty well. I think I had towardsgrown, I started to back it off, so it wasn't feeling the best. That might have been the cause of it. Yeah, like I just think it's my body still getting used to racing the 50K race. It is long at the end of the day. There are going to be those challenges. So I was just, yeah, I was lucky that it only happened 5K to go from the finish with when we had quite a big gush. Yeah, I think it worked out on the day. Yeah, no, great. I think the news come true Luke, yes, selection was confirmed and you'll be at the European Championships. I was able to do it over the last couple of days, was it? Yeah, it was last week, I was actually out. I kind of do part-time landscaping. So I was just cutting some graft and I saw an email on my phone and I realised that it just sort of lives with. And I read it and I ran over the guy I worked with and I was just like, yeah, I'm going to the Euro. I think even when you come first, you just never know you have to wait for that email to come through that. That's when you're like, all right, I'm going. So yeah, that was some good some buzz. What does the preparation look like now Luke, for the European Championships? Will you allow yourself to have some downtime or is it straight into the next race or are you looking to try and peak now for June? Because it is hard isn't it? The peak so well like you did there last week, but then there's to try and peak again. And not too far away, the bit what eight, nine weeks or so away for the European Championships themselves. What does the next two months look like? Yeah, just you saying that there. It's definitely going to come along quite quickly. I've got a race called Trail of the Grotto Line. It's another in our Irish development race over in France. So I've got that two weeks out from the Europeans. So the plan will be to basically treat that as I did for the wickle way half and Mara Smollens. So I'm going into that nearly full fitness using that race as a the last kind of key session key primer for the Euros. And then making sure I recover properly off that maybe one last key session and then the race. So it's from here yet is a few the next few weeks is it is pretty crucial in the sense of like nailing the nailing the recovery off the 50k and making sure I'm not too fatigued. And I can hit those key sessions well. Yeah, like I had a week off last week basically just completely off and to allow the body to recover. And it's also allowing you adaptations you've got from racing a 50k you might as well try and get as much out of that as possible and steady going straight back in. And then maybe not realizing that you have that little niggle the little tweak that you didn't really know that. Yeah, and you mentioned that that you weren't as happy as you would have liked to have been at the world championships last year and can't find can Spain where I think of I'm not mistaken you were the youngest athlete to represent Ireland that's seen her level, which is fantastic. And is there any way is there anything that you can take away from the world championships last September any learnings from it that you'll be able to apply do you think in the European championships in June. I think it's it's more just looking at the guys that are the best in the sport and they are they do everything they do the basics and they do the basics really basic there's nothing fancy. And it's it's now I think knowing that going into the the pen where you have to warm up before the start it's never really that big but knowing that before I go in I know no all right maybe kind of warm up a bit outside and then go in and does. There's that adrenaline at the start that you're obviously when you're on the line you're saying all right it's going to be okay I'm calm I'm here now but it always gets you so knowing that it might get you and kind of backing off maybe a little bit more just so you can race the race. Completely now in the in the world champs there was unfortunately a wasp nest on the ground on this like the first climb 4k and I got stung by 4 wasp which was was not enjoyable and that definitely had a cause to the race not going well and but I still think going in I I got really fit for the trials but then. And we basically just wanted to make sure that I got to the race, fit and healthy. But I think this time going to the Euros, I know I can't get there, fit and healthy, so we're going to go in with a lot more. I can make fitness now in the next few weeks. I can push on kind of. And I think being in June, it's a nice time, whereas the world's was in the end of September. So it is hard, it's the end of the year. This is a nice, really good time. Middle of the year, you will have gain, fitness. You can hold that fitness and it's not like it's drought dancing or not mentally, if it's even. Yeah, and then maybe back for the hat trick of winning the Neocotreon and some kind of technique. I don't think so this year actually. I was invited to the Skyrunning World Series under 23 series. So I've got a Skyrunning race on the weekend of the Eocotreon. Yeah, is that the world championships in La Gromera in the Canary Islands? Look, is it that one? No, so this is the actual like the world series. Skyrunning World Series. Yeah, and it's, I've got three races in two in Spain, one in France, and then the final is in October. So that's kind of take you up my September and October, but it's an amazing opportunity because I'll again get to race against really high level on the 23s in big European races. Yeah, yeah, and even maybe even one for the Dari, four that world championships finals in October. I'll be working out at Luke myself on the microphone that day and they've signed me up already. So my day would have been a little bit of luck to get to see it in an Irish jersey for that one maybe as well because I know some of the mental ads have that one under under calendar as well. It's been great to chat to you. It really has maybe just one last question that I have from my side that I just picked up from having a little look around your Instagram there earlier on that you've done very well and you've managed to get a couple of sponsorship deals over the last year or two. I think you're working with is a portfolio sport talent which is the first time that I saw an Irish athlete working with a Jerry McGuire type sports agency. I'm not sure. I don't know the guys at all. And again, for any young listeners that's that's coming true and that's looking to try and get maybe a I don't know some some some hydration deal, nutrition deal or a shoe deal. Have you been successful? I mean, you've got a couple of brands on board, Richard. If you have, how did you go about it? A part of course from your great results? Yeah. So Ryan and Lewis from Portfolio Sport have been just a massive help for making like a dream of hopefully going professional in the sport one day and making it a reality in a way. I've got yeah, I've got precision fuel hydration for my like fuel. I've got Kailas Fuga, a Chinese company for my shoes and then Sumto for like my watchwear and all our or a massive help and they all play their role. And yeah, like I think I think getting I think the elite side of mountain running and trail running in Ireland is definitely it's definitely progressing. It's coming up and I kind of I would love to show that young athletes that you can go from you can prioritize you can really focus on the mountains on the trails. You don't have to go to the traditional way of going to the track and going to the cross country because here in Ireland we have the facilities to create amazing athletes and the mountains because the mountains around us are here there and they've been here for years and years. So like I think it's just we've seen that there are more and more under 20 athletes going to under 20 trials. There's now the winner of the under the senior classic race and the senior. The women's classic and the men's classic race this year for the euros for both 20. So I think the age is coming down which is really cool to see and it's just about for trying to keep the under 20s in the sport to make that jump to senior because it is it is a bit of a set there's no one to 23 rankings and only two or three rankings in the world or the euros championships but I think if we can keep them in it we have massive potential because we've seen even from the likes of Zaccana who is now a professional athlete that it can be done in Ireland. Yeah yeah no great words listen Luke I wish it continued success and sure everybody else listening in does as well you've had some great results over the last couple of years as I said the youngest athlete to represent Ireland that senior level on the mountains which is fantastic and Luke yeah listen best look with their build up to the euros to quote you there for one another one of your posts form is forming and I hope form continues to form over the next couple of months for you and in the builds up to the euros made out all the best look with it thank you very much thanks Luke take care thank you well there we have it for this week show guys thanks a million to Renee and to Luke for a popping on and good luck to all of the Irish athletes all of their runners selected to run for Ireland at the European Championships in Slovenia in June this year good luck guys in your build up I hope the build up goes nice and smooth for you all just before we go a quick reminder the pop onto patreon trail running Ireland if you have a second and for the price of a gel pommel and you can help keep us on the airwaves all year long goodbye for now and everybody get your running gear on let's go