EP #130: From CIA Case Officer to Community Leader: A Conversation with Emily McCarthy, Co-Founder of GORUCK

(gentle music) Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness in daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stafnopoulos, and this week I have a very interesting guest on the podcast, Emily McCarthy, who is one of the co-founders and chief community officer at GoRuck, which is an apparel company that supports Rucking, which is a form of physical exercise that involves walking or hiking with a loaded backpack. And what's cool about Rucking is that it's actually based off of military training workouts and the two co-founders that started GoRuck actually come from a military background being the special forces and Emily in the CIA. So I'm really excited to have her as a guest on the podcast this week. And in this interview, we talk about her unconventional career path in the CIA, some key lessons she learned through being in the CIA on navigating high pressure environments, cultivating positive self-belief and confidence. We talk about the founding story of GoRuck, the health benefits of Rucking as a form of physical activity, and her role as the chief community officer, and really what she's done to build a community, and how that's really played a significant role in the success of the brand. We also talk about why it's important to build strong interpersonal relationships and having a support system for our wellbeing. And lastly, of course, we end on how Emily defines happiness, health, and wellbeing, and what brings her a bit of endorphins every day. I'm so excited for you all to listen to this interview, but before we dive in, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Follow along on Instagram, TikTok, at Everyday Endorphins, stay up to date with events, episodes, and more, and you can also follow my sub-stack, which is the Everyday Endorphins newsletter. Once a month, I release a newsletter that talks about the interviews, release that month, any podcast events, community events, five things that have brought me personally endorphins, enjoy, and a little bit of a op-ed excerpt on a topic that I've been thinking about, that I wanna share with my community. So lots of ways to stay plugged into Everyday Endorphins. Hope you all enjoy listening to this episode, and we'll get right into it. - Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It's so great to have you here. - Thanks for having me, Stella. It's nice to meet you. - You have such an interesting story from the research that I've done, from what I've gone to learn about you even prior to this recording. So let's start, actually, with you sharing a little bit more about yourself for my listeners, and describing at a high level the trajectory of your career, 'cause you've had so many interesting pivots into what you're currently doing now as the co-founder and head of community at GoRuck. - Thanks, I always left at that, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, I never set out to do anything, "you know, that interesting, but something's funny, "one of my college teammates from the track team, "where I ran." They were describing, they were like, "Emily always went left when people went right. "I didn't even realize I was doing that until, you know, "you look back and you're like, "Oh, I guess, "I guess that was a little bit off the wall." But yeah, I'm just a Florida girl. My mom was a teacher, my dad was a mortgage banker before the housing crash. And I just kind of grew up a normal kind of middle class life and played sports growing up. I was really into sports, probably sometimes a little too into it, but I ended up running in college and I walked onto the team at Georgetown, not really realizing at the time that they were a Division I top five team in the country. And so I was a little bit out of my league, but it was one of those situations where I was a little fish and a really big pond and kind of learned a lot about myself and what it means to be on a team and not be like one of the best, you know, to be like bringing up the rear and how they're still like an important role to play with that. And then, you know, I majored in French, minored in Spanish, went pre-med 'cause I thought I wanted to go to medical school and then go to doctors without borders, the MSF and work abroad. And right, just shortly after I graduated, my dad passed away suddenly and sort of just up, big up heaval in my life, my family's life. So I ended up delaying this year of service that I had planned post-college. So through Catholic Relief Services had signed up to be a volunteer and Ecuador for a year and then ended up doing that after the dust settled, the following year. And that was a real left turn for people, you know, like out of college, I think that's a different, at the time there wasn't a lot of people doing that. It was 2001. So this is before 9/11 and there was a recession and I had a lot of student loans. Looking back, I was like, oh my gosh, what was I thinking? But those kind of experience, I kind of feel like, well, I can pay this off later and ended up being the case, thankfully, because I got recruited to work for the agency, the CIA, after that. I'm sure being in the DC area for college had little something to do with that in my language background, but it was also a large, in large part because of the 9/11. They were just on a hiring spree. So the CIA has to actively recruit people to come and work for them. Like, how does that work? It feels very secretive. I'm not sure how much you can disclose. There's a lot of different points of entry. So, you know, there are career fairs, there's referrals. In this case, I had applied to be a language teacher 'cause that's my mom's the teacher, my brother's the teacher. I came back from Ecuador and I taught Spanish in middle school for a while and I just thought, I thought I was gonna be a high school teacher and a coach. That's how I thought I was gonna be my life. And that's a good life. I still think about it sometimes 'cause I'm like, "Man, that's what I planned." And so what happened was I applied to be a language teacher, not knowing at the time that they only hire native speakers for these sort of positions, which makes sense in retrospect. But my resume got repurposed for a different role, which was in the clandestine service, which has a bunch of different roles, but I ended up, you go through a lot of testing, you go through a lot of training and they basically tell you, like, well, we want you for this position and that position was an operations officer, also known as a case officer. So those are the folks that are out in the field, abroad, meeting with sources and collecting raw intelligence. So that was exciting. I didn't, a long haul all along the way. I kept being like, I don't know if this is for me. Maybe I should just go back to be a teacher. And I just kept saying, I'll go to the next step. I'll just see what happens. And I was curious enough and I wanted to live abroad enough that I pursued that and it ended up being a really cool thing to do in your 20s. - Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure it took you really all over the world and brought you so much opportunity. And I can imagine being in that type of role, especially at the CIA, is a pretty high intensity, like highly stressful job. So can you share a little bit more if possible, like a day in your life at that point in time and how you managed to take care of your own well-being and mental health under probably like a highly, or being in a highly stressful environment? - It was stressful. I think, you know, as a young officer, you have a lot to prove. And I think there's sort of two examples of that. First of all, there's the probationary period. When you've passed all the background checks and you're a polygraph and you've received your conditional offer and you've been a, you're basically invited to go to training. And those trainings have different parts, different stages. Obviously, people know very well what the farm is and that was an intense period of time where you're basically pick up and move and go live for the better part of a year. It's pretty intense. But when I say intense, what I was expecting was from sort of the Hollywood standpoint where it was gonna be super physical and I was gonna, you know, be woken up at 4 a.m. and have to run up a mountain and it wasn't that at all. It was a lot of sitting in a car driving for surveillance detection routes. And a lot of sitting in a seat typing when you're writing up reports because if you didn't write it, it didn't happen sort of thing. So that being said, there were some really dynamic parts about the training that I enjoyed thoroughly that I look back on and I think about it. Like that was the best summer camp I ever had, you know, doing basically despise school. The kind of stuff that you would think it was. But the intensity of it was that I worked like all the time. I felt like I slept just a little bit. You were also under this scrutiny all the time. You were constantly being evaluated. You thought everyone was against you, you know, it's competitive and it wasn't a very relaxing sort of position. Now I'll tell you a little bit more about when I actually did graduate and what that looked like. But for that part, that time at the farm, there's a couple of things that kind of kept me sane. One, I was in a position where I didn't have children at the time, and I just stayed on site the whole time. A lot of people would go back and forth on the weekends back to their families, or, I mean, if I did this again and I had kids, that's what I would do. And these people were so amazing. They were so efficient. They got all their stuff done and they made it work. And, you know, as a parent now, I understand what, when you think you didn't have a lot of time when you were young and single, and then how that is even less, you know, when you've got little, little ones. But I definitely made a lot of time to be outdoors and to move, whether it be swimming, running. I didn't know it was rucking at the time because Jason was also ongoing through his special forces training. He was just discovering rucking at the time. But I had a backpack and I would basically go hiking in the woods. And then the second part that was really important is that I made friends. It's a solitary sort of role, and especially so when you're in that sort of evaluation time. And, you know, a year is a long time to be in that kind of probationary period, I think. So I made some good friends, people that I could trust that I could actually let my guard down with and share with them like, oh, I'm really anxious about this. You know, can we help each other out? And so there was a lot of good people that I came across in my training. - Yeah, I think having a strong support system is incredibly important. It helps boost our wellbeing. It helps keep us feeling mentally sane. So I'm so glad that you mentioned that because there is research that does show that, you know, the strength of our interpersonal relationships really help to improve our wellbeing and our life satisfaction. And at the time when you were in the CIA, were you allowed to tell people that you were working as an operations officer? - Or. - Or. - I mean, like yes and no, right? Like, it depends on the situation. So I was in a position where I did not tell my family. My mom had just lost, you know, her husband and she was going through a lot. The last thing I wanted to say was during war time that I'm, I've just signed up and I'm joining the hunt for Ben Laden, you know? Like, I couldn't put that kind of stress on her. My brother was 16. So, well, I can't tell him either. So there was probably two people that knew, like what I was actually doing, that were my support system and one of them was constantly in their own lockdown cut off, you know, in Communicado as well. So the people within, finding and forging those new, trusting relationships within, especially, and like I said in this environment where you're competing, it's different. Like, you don't know at the time, which you don't know. You think almost like every, they don't tell you much. So you're wondering like, well, is that person trying to help me or hurt me? You know, so there's a little bit of that going on, at least initially, but it's like with anything, you can sort it out, you know, pretty soon, you can figure out, okay, well, who are the people that actually are gonna be my friends and then we can have a training relationship? And that, I want to just underline that that is more often than not. It's just the unknown factor when you're going in. - Exactly. - And reflecting back now, being out of that role for quite some time, what would you say are some of the biggest lessons or life skills even that you've taken away from that experience that have transferred and been applicable to other areas of your life and other parts of your career? - Gosh, there's a lot of them. I think it's funny 'cause some people will say, oh, you must have learned that when you were in the agency and I'm like, I think I already knew that. But it's just like you hone those skills when you're there, you know, 'cause I think a lot of about being a case officer is a lot of common sense or street smarts. And then there's this element of writing, it learning to write an intelligent report, something that you wouldn't know until they give you the template. - But in terms of lessons, I think one thing that I learned a lot from some of the leaders, some of the chiefs of station that I worked with, and I think about sort of their lessons a lot, I some of them were better than others, but the one that was really impactful to me, he taught me a lot about just how do you present yourself? Like, you know, if you like, imagine this, I'm 25 years old, I'm the acting chief of station, I'm given, I'm basically the DNI, the Directive National Intelligent Representative for this part of the world. And that's a lot of responsibility when you're thinking about like what's happening, you know, we're talking about national priorities, initiatives. And I just remember him saying like, you know, we are the United States, like this is something that we're good, he was just like a good confidence booster. And also just questioning things. Not in a way that you go to like a new place and just wanna just start everything new, right? That's I think that happens in business and everywhere. It's like, you just wanna fresh start, right? Let me just fix everything, do it my way. And I think a good lesson I learned was, there's a lot of work that sometimes other people have done that it's actually, if you take the time to go back through the files and read the history, that you can actually start a conversation that maybe someone left off. And, you know, those kind of leads are sometimes warmer than just trying to forge a new path on your own. So I think that's sort of this building block. I did a lot of things in preparation for going out to my first post and when I was on the ground where I would reach out to former officers that were there and say, hey, what was your experience like? Tell me, I was just as curious. I would go, this is shortly after 9/11, as I mentioned, where what the 9/11 commission found was that the federal government had all this information, but no one was sharing it or connecting the dots, right? And I went in with this mentality of like, well, I got to connect dots. And how do you do that? And there's no sort of magic formula, you don't have to be, you know, a astrophysicist to do these things. You just have to actually be curious. And I'd made sure to do that. I would go to the eye, the directed, where the analyst sit, the director of intelligence. And I'd ask the analyst, which, like, just so you know, I mean, it's, there's like parts of any sort of bureaucracy where it's like, we don't talk to them, you know? Those people aren't smarter. Those people are the nerds, you know? Kind of typical mentalities like walls up. And I remember going to the analyst and just saying, like, give me the brain, Duff, you know? Like, you guys have been working this issue for a decade. Tell me everything you know about it. And, you know, most of them are just very happy to someone wants to hear what they know. So that was the kind of things that I learned. Yeah, I'm glad you bring up this point around curiosity. I think having a curious mindset is so important, especially because a lot of people, early on in their careers, especially, face, tends to be imposter syndrome. And I do believe that having a curious mindset and a mentality that is open-minded and is interested in learning from others helps you get out of that feeling as if you're an imposter, or feeling stuck, and rather just kind of seeking out opportunities where you can constantly learn from other people. And going back to what you mentioned earlier, you know, picture this, I'm 25, and I'm in this role and I have so much responsibility, how did you cultivate a belief in yourself that you were capable of doing the work that was handed, you know, and put on your plate? I asked this because cultivating a belief in oneself really has nothing to do with the external environment. It has to deal with within, starting within. So I'd love to hear some of your strategies that you used at the time, or even things that you currently practice around building that greater sense of self-worth and self-esteem, you know, having that self-concept where you see the capabilities that you have and fully trust that you are either A, making the right decision or B, know what you're doing. Stella, I go into most situations in life, realizing that I do not know most things, right? And I think that sort of baked in humility of like, I don't know what I'm doing is kind of how I approach things. I mean, granted, I was in stations in West Africa, I had been speaking French for many years. I had read every book I could find on that area of the world. You know, I listened to a podcast, you know, I don't, you know, that the time there weren't really podcasts. It was more like NPR and, you know, read the economist and I had done some research, but even the people that are experts, that we consider experts in their fields. Like, I think most of them would say they never stop learning, right? I remember one of my bosses one time, he was like, you're basically an expert on Evorian politics. And I looked at him and I was like, what? And then I was like, well, I guess when you, you know, how many people focus on, you know, he said from the, you know, the US, I mean, I'm not anymore. I mean, though I keep, you know, kind of tabs on it, but it's like, I thought like that's a funny thing to say. Like I never would have thought that because I'm not Evorian or I'm not a politician, you know, so how could I be an expert on these things? So I think the strategy is to go in there and realize that I probably know less than I think I do. And yet, decisions still need to be made, you know? I'm never, you can't wait to have perfect information. You can't wait until you're like completely satisfied that you have this all figured out. You're still gonna have to put the work out there. And I think I'm a big believer in incremental progress, right? Like, and this is what I love about language. I'm always telling people like, well, you can just change the way you say it, you know? Like language is flexible and you can go back and say, "We know when I said that, I actually didn't know what I know now, and now I've changed my mind about it." Yeah, that's such a good point. Just thinking about how language also impacts or the way in which you say something can express an idea completely different versus saying it in a totally different way, like being really meticulous with the, an intentional with the words that you choose can make it a huge difference, right? And you have the language background through your studies and college at Georgetown. So I'm sure there's so much more, you know, that you've learned in that area as well. I want to go back to when you were talking about your time at the CIA, hiking, which with the backpack, which at the time you didn't really realize, was rucking. So I think this is a great segue into talking about what rucking is, sharing a little bit about the creation of the company that you co-founded. Go rock. Again, picture this, 225-year-olds, they decide to get married, like all of a sudden we knew each other from high school, so it wasn't like we had just met. But, you know, he's enlisted in the Army in a program that takes you from like street to Green Beret, which is a little unusual. It happens every once in a while, that they offer this program and then here I am, you know, going through the farm to become a case officer with the CIA. And we were together, but we didn't get to see each other very much. There was a lot of just, you know, text and like wait till after, you know, 9 p.m. for phone calls at the time when they were free. But he was telling me, oh, I've been, I've been rucking a lot. I've been getting, that's like the one thing he really enjoyed, you know, of his military training. So he was also telling me about CrossFit at the time because that was just popping up and getting popular within the military community. And he tried to get me into the CrossFit stuff and I was like, you know, the weight stuff isn't me. I was a runner. I still ran a lot. So what I did instead was, you know, I was on my own. I had a little, I had a North Face Pack that was a zip-off part of my hiking pack that I had taken the Europe and when I went backpacking in college. And so I had this great little backpack. It was so tiny. Everyone always like asked me about it. And I just put some snacks in there and some, you know, my wallet or whatever and maybe a bottle of water. I could squeeze in there. And I would just, like I said during, you know, I would be one of the only ones left at the farm when people went away for the weekend. And I would use that time, one to decompress to go explore this beautiful wooded area in Virginia. And then the other parts of the time is that I would really work on my area of fam. So your familiarization with the area, you know, this is something that as a case officer, it's key to your success for having good surveillance detection routes and also knowing when and where you can meet an asset, a source. So I just, I just, like, worked it all the time. I was just driving around, getting on my car, like exploring places, you know, there's things I didn't do as well as I wanted to in some of the training, but something that I really, I think I had the best of was the area of fam of a thing. This is come the time that I spent, you know, exploring that region. So yeah, so rucking again, it was more Jason talking about it to me, me not really understanding what it was, but it's something that people do, even if they don't realize they're doing it, you right? If you're walking around New York with a backpack, you're technically rucking. Jason likes to say that hiking is just rucking in the mountains. That's what he says. So basically, we had this crazy relationship where he's in Iraq, I'm in West Africa, he gets an R&R, a rest and relaxation time he comes to visit me on his time off. He's, you know, imagine this, he's coming from like Basra, zone and he gets to Cote d'Ivoire where I was living and he's like, "This place is freaking me out." Because it's it's it's its own at the time. It was just tense. It wasn't a war zone but it had been a war zone in the past but it's also just Africa where it's like kind of anything can happen. And I you know instead of being restricted as you are in the military is to you know where you can go inside and outside the wire at what time I didn't have any of that. I was just could go anywhere I wanted all the time pretty much and I did. And you know there was rebel territory in the north that their you know their UN had a presence there. So he caught there and he was like, "This place is crazy. This is and you're living by yourself here with our dog." And you know he he was just a little bit taken aback by sort of the situation I was living and and you know again I was like, "Well this is this is what I know. This is how it is." So he made me a go bag which he called a go-ruck. And it had extra pair shoes, bottles of water, you know copies of my passport, snacks, extra cash, a compass, you know all sorts of things. And he he'd gotten all this you know gear issued to him from the military. And so he just had an extra military pack. And we were combating on how amazing these packs work because they they're like these clamshell ones. They open completely flat. It's like a medical kit. So it's like almost like you have a table and you have all these pockets and all these ways to attach things so you know where all your stuff is. And he was just kind of walking me through it. So this was basically you know his world and filtering into mine. And this is something that I was saying earlier like the agency didn't really give us that kind of training. There was a little bit of that. And the actual training wasn't as physical as I had hoped it would have been you know from watching movies. But he was basically giving me a crash course on like hey this is what they taught me in the military. This is what you need to do if things go upside down. And it was possible. I mean I lived across the street from a former prime minister and one day I drove home and there was a 300 people a riot around house. And I just turned around and left and didn't go back until it settled down sort of thing. So he made me this go ruck and I used it and people had solid and people were asking me oh can you make can you have a make me one or can you make me one. So the two of us were like wow we could do this go ruck thing where we just make people survival bags. And that was kind of the initial thought of it because at the time he was looking to maybe transition out and join me where I was and we were just going to continue to serve and be a tandem couple doing that. But Jason doesn't ever do anything halfway. So he decided he was going to redesign the backpack to be exactly you know no extras you know the parts that we didn't like about the military issued ones that they looked too tactical things like that. So fast forward he designed two years later designed a what we thought was this beautiful bag you know meets the intent of its purpose. And yet it's like sleek and no external branding that was like a big thing which is unusual right. He did not even put it. I remember there was actually a really cool anecdote. He was talking to like these older businessmen and lawyers and they were like what are you thinking you've got to put your brand on the outside of the ruck you're deciding or no one's going to know what it is. And he was like well where's the brand on your nice suit you're wearing right you're you know our monies suit doesn't have an external brand and it just looks nice right. So they kind of stopped them in their tracks and we went forward with you know the design of this but again the rucking piece the fitness part of that in the community weren't even part of the picture until no one wanted to buy those bags. So let's talk a little bit about that. The design is so sleek. That's exactly the word I was going to use to describe it and it's funny because I went for a very long walk in Central Park the other week carrying like two laptops two books and it was so heavy and it was a very long walk that I was not expecting to do and I felt like I was kind of rucking in Central Park because I have this you know I was carrying this heavy load with me on this long walk right but I want to hear more about the community aspect because you know as we both know being former athletes there's something so powerful about being involved in a sport with a team and having people around you and I know in your role as head of community your primary you know responsibilities and the things that you really do in your day to day is to help bring this community to life and so would love to hear more about what that looks like and how the community aspect has really served to create a stronger you know identity within Go Rock. I'll start off by saying that the community is already living right and I'm just here to sort of service the community I think to you know channel talk to them keep the lines of communication open to make sure that the stories that need to be told or being told to make sure that you know when there's misunderstandings that we work through those but I've really sort of started to reframe I think this idea like Go Rock built this community or Jason and I built this community and I the thing is is that I can tell you that it was something that was tapped into it was a time and place it was a kind of fluky thing right where the world was thirsty for this, right? Like people were hungry to do hard things to put weight on. They didn't know it, but to put weight in the backpack and go out and take this thing that had been done from humans since the beginning of our existence of carrying heavy things. Something so primal and something that the military and militaries of ancient times till today have been doing, right? Where you're just, you're putting a load on your back because that's how humans carry things best when we don't have vehicles or animals at our disposal. And we didn't realize that that could actually transfer into something that people could do together and have not only fun from it, but growth and friendship and feel like they've been through something special together and feel bonded over this. That's kind of how it happened where these rocks, he couldn't sell these rocks. To go on a road trip and try to get them in all the bougie, minstores around the country, no one cared. No one cares, right? There's just another bag at that point. And sure, you got a good story, dude, but who cares? But what happened is that he put a bunch of bricks and did the first ever tough mutter that was also happening at that obstacle course relay craze was just starting, right? And so it's a confluence of these fluky things that happened. And so from there, just running all these events, I did the third ever event with Jason, my help to plan the second one. And at the time, I was like, well, this is cool, but how are you going to do more of this? But it ended up just happening. People heard about this and it was exciting because it was new, meet on a street corner at 1 a.m. And no details forthcoming sort of mentality. And at the time, Jason would show up with all the rucksacks and the wait, and tell people to get it because he was trying to get pictures of how tough the gear was. And it was just so it's this bizarre thing where he was trying to showcase how cool and well built the actual rock was, but then what came out of it was that people actually liked caring heavy things on their back together around a city. I mean, the first one I did was in 2010, November, and New York City. It was like a tour of New York, except being push-ups in the Hudson River, and caring like a log through Central Park. And it just wild, right? And we still run events like this today. The element of surprise is not the same, but it's something that if you haven't gone through it, some people are like, I wonder if I could do that, do an overnight event, or something like that. And there's something sort of magical to going through that 2 a.m. 3 a.m. type 2 fun with someone else and then seeing the sunrise together. And now like you're just you always will have that memory. Absolutely. There is something so special about being in community where people are pushing you to test your limits, physical and mental, but also supporting you along the way. And last summer I got pretty involved with this run club in New York. And I don't consider myself a runner. I like to run, but I'm not obsessed with it. And when I joined this run club, the first time I came was supposed to be like a 5 mile run, which is the most amount of mileage I had done, like start to finish ever. And it was really difficult for me. But being with a group of people that were really supportive, actually I literally felt the effects of the in-dorf and high from running. For that first time, the first time I went to the run club and reflecting on that now, I'm realizing why it was so special to me. That was because it was the first time since I was on a sports team in high school that I was with a collective group of people where I was being pushed out of my comfort zone physically. And I reminded myself that I can do hard things and that I can test my physical limits in a way that I don't feel inclined to do when I'm working out by myself at the gym. So it's a really unique feeling and it's super special. When you are able to prove to yourself that you can do something that our minds naturally put these barriers and limits on. And a question that I want to ask you, kind of going back to your time at the CII and even talking about the military as well, such high stress environments for your life and your physical and safety as being threatened and on the line. So I can imagine that in those experiences you really need to develop some sort of resilience. And see an emotional resiliency. Can you speak more towards really the intersection between mental health and being in the military, being in the CII, what that looks like and any lessons that you've learned? Yes, I think that there are a lot of jobs out there that can be high stress, working in emergency room. But I think the military, what I've witnessed through Jason's experience and others and then my own as a civilian and kind of a bizarre environment, it is stressful and it's important to be able to manage the stress because it's one of those things that it's the same, right? Like every day I would wake up and be like, what's happening today? I don't know what's going to be, I mean, yes, there's projects I'm working on, you know, there's developmental assets that I'm working on and then there's existing sources. But like I don't know what's going on happen in the world. That's going to affect my job today. So we've talked a lot about this at Gauruk because whether we liked it or not, we ended up in the fitness and wellness space. And there's a couple of things that you really need to just, there's things you can't control. We can't control what happens in the world, but we can control sort of ourselves in our reaction to things, right? To a certain extent and, you know, the basics of making sure that you're sleeping enough, you know, it's something that I had to teach myself. I can't just, I mean, I would work crazy hours and then wonder why, you know, I'm falling, it could be, you can't be falling apart when you're meeting with someone who's, you know, safety and the safety of their family is based upon you not making a mistake, you know? So getting enough sleep, getting time, I think it's really important to move. And, you know, nutrition, I think it, I think it matters. I think it matters to a certain extent, but I'm like a real 80/20 kind of girl on that stuff. I really think, you know, we've got the physical part. It's really important that when everything else might be out of whack, you just hone a hone in on that. But like I keep going back to the social aspect of existing is something that's hardwired in humans. And some of my darkest times living abroad and sort of feeling like, or when I felt the most alone, right? When I felt like I didn't have anyone that I could talk to or share with or, and or feel seen by, you know? And I think that's really important that people find ways to stay connected. But I think it's really easy this day to think that you're kind of interacting socially without really letting people see who you are, which is why these type two activities or these run clubs where you're actually, you're not your best, right? You might actually be falling apart at this run. You might be losing your temper at 3 a.m. because you're exhausted and hungry. But I have letting people see that and still want to help you or be around you or, you know, forgive you for it. I was just that, and I went and did a triple tough is what we called it. So it was three back to back 12 hour events starting in New York City to commemorate 9/11. We did that event and then we drove to Schengsville, Pennsylvania where the flight 93 crashed. And we did a 12 hour event there. And then we, after that was done, we drove to Washington, NEC to do a 12 hour event around the Pentagon all from the 9/11 weekend. That was earlier, I was around September 11 last year. And at the tail end of that, I said something. And I mean, here I am. Look at my job as the head of community and, you know, I'm supposed to be like this smile and be happy and positive. And I said something to someone that was downright rude. Like a little bit later, I was like, I am so sorry. I didn't mean, and he looked at me and he goes, oh, we're all there. Don't worry, we're all there. And that was like, what a forgiving and loving way to say that, you know, like I just, my filter was not on. And like we could just be real with each other. So, so going back to what I was saying. So you got your physical, you got your social, and you got your mental. Those all things work together. For me personally, I can't work out whatever mental, dark places or struggles I'm going through without those other two being at least in a decent spot. They don't have to be perfect, but I need to have slept, you know, eaten, move my body, and then have, and I feel a lot better after I can find to someone or tell them a little bit about what I'm going through. It doesn't have to be everything. I know there's a lot of talk these days about selfishness and people who are vampires, energy vampires. And I get it. That is out there. And I think we should all be cognizant to not be that. But I'm saying is the opposite is worse. Not even trying or sharing. Yeah. That's such a good point. I was actually talking about that concept of energy vampires earlier today with a friend. And to your point around like going back to the social side of it, it is so important to be able to feel as if you can connect deeply with others and authentically with other people. But I truly believe that in order for you to create those types of relationships, you need to show up as your authentic self. And working backwards from that, how do you do that? Things are in alignment, the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual. And they all are interconnected because similar to you, if my mental head space is not so great, I have to ensure that at least the physical and emotional is kind of doing okay. Because if those parts of the foundation are not strong, like if I'm sacrificing my sleep, if I'm not eating well, if I'm like drinking too much on the weekend, not that I'm like, just, I'm not an alcohol. Like I say that as in like going out and not being social and whatnot. Like if I'm not taking care of myself in the foundational ways that you need to provide for your body, it is harder to show up for yourself and take care of your mental well being. So all of this goes to say that in order to really foster those deep relationships with other people, you need to really take care of yourself first. So there's so many ways in which you can do that. And I think happiness plays a huge role in this because we're all trying to find out what's that secret. How can we become happier and positive psychology really shows that it's not about becoming happy. It's not about reaching some desired instinct. It's about infusing joy into the present moment every single day. And life is distracting. There's so many things that are going to pull us apart and bring our attention to some of the different directions. So it's so, so important to be intentional about infusing joy in our day to day lives. So with that being said Emily, I would love to hear from you as we wrap up this interview. Two final questions. The first being, how do you define happiness? And the second, what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? Happiness for me is feeling seen. Even if it's like a little thing, like if it's like some little detail that someone notices, like, I noticed that you you made a Kalman Hobbs reference in your your post today. You know, like that's I like that are like, I like to make mixes on Spotify and you know, send them to people and just I like to share these kind of things and be like, do you know, did you like that song too? Like I'm feeling that that song is like, I'm having a moment with it or something like that. But so happiness for me is feeling seen, especially by people that are close to me. And endorphins, it's funny because you know, I'm I'm in the rucking business and I and I love rucking, but I recently started surfing. And I like every part of that. I like the awkward caring it, you know, out to the surf spot. I like paddling out. I like sitting on the board waiting for a wave. I even like the kind of like thrill of like, is that a shark, you know? Like I like that kind of game and then catching a wave is just so great. Like the other day I do a lot of different kind of workouts. I do yoga, I run, I rock, I do rock training workouts. We do them every weekend. And I enjoy those just I enjoy how I feel afterwards. I enjoy the people that I get to talk with the other day I went out surfing for like three hours. And I came back and I was like, gosh, why am I so hungry? You know, it's because I didn't even register that I was working out. Like I think there's times when we kind of like create the situation where we're going to get that runners high or that endorphins and we know we're going to have to put in work for it. And I think those are great. And I think you need to have those in your life. Those are probably like, you know, the six days of the week, you know, that you got to work on those. But I feel like you've got to have something every now and then that you don't even feel it doesn't feel like you're working, you know, if you're just lost in nature on a on a like a great hike or you're on a bike ride, you just are enjoying that. And for me, it's been the surfing part. Like I doesn't even feel like a workout. And this is coming from someone that I, you know, I've never been a calorie counter. I don't like to obsess about those things. I like to just kind of feel like how it goes. But I think it's important to have both of those. So you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. The experiences you're describing, like hiking, being in nature, going on a long bike ride, just getting lost in the moment, it's you're in a state of presence, like true presence. You're tapping into flow. And that is like this euphoric feeling. And I was recently catching up with a friend of mine who recently got into surfing in Mexico. And she just, that is her endorphin high too. So I think there's something also very calming and meditative being out in the water. And that's something that I can really resonate with doing rowing in high school. It's a water sport. So I completely agree with that. And I love the way that you broke down that answer. Really, really interesting. I have one sort of final thought on that. It's like if you aren't able to have to do a workout with people, you know, like find something that just brings you that high. And it can be anything. I mean, some people say they love weightlifting, right? And that that like makes them feel powerful and strong and so good. And they like to do it by themselves. I mean, how many people, like my problem now with running is that I only really like to run with a group. Because I've, you know, I've been conditioned being on a team, coaching teams. And now it's like running by myself with my music and my ear. I'm just like, Oh, this doesn't do. It feels like drudgery to me. And then like good luck getting me on a treadmill, you know? But some people that is their meditative, that's where they do their thinking or that's how they distress. And I think there's lots of ways to do it. But I feel like if it's something that you know you need to do or that's good for you, but it's work like surround yourself. It's a good group of people, right? And then if it's like something else, it's like find out that thing you can do on your own that brings you that sort of that endorphin high with also some peace. Absolutely. It's important to find a balance of both. Because sometimes when you're in that solo time, it's very meditative and kind of spiritual in a way. There are moments where I like to run by myself as a way to decompress. And then there's other moments like with my run club where I really need to be around people to make me feel like I'm accomplishing something when I'm pushing through something. So it's, and to your point, there's no one right way. And different practices work for different people. So that's the beauty of health and wellbeing and the messaging that I hope to really advocate here on everyday endorphins. And so, you know, with all that being said, Emily, it really was such a pleasure having you as I got on the podcast, where can my community follow along with GoRoc and get involved with the community that you've built? Well, thank you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. You can find us probably most easily on our site at goroc.com and our Instagram handle. It's just goroc. And we have rug clubs that are kind of all over the place. And if there isn't one where near you, there's easy ways to start one. And there's also just things you can do kind of, you know, rucking, you can do it with, you can do it on your own, but we encourage you to do it at least another person. And sometimes, as are furry friends, that people take with them. But one last thing is that some advice that I'm just thinking of my old cheapest station, he said, you know, case officers are unpredictable. So it's like, I always take that into effect when it's like, it's okay to not always have a routine, you know, to just try new things to mix it up. And that's something that I really enjoy. Because I think it's easy to fall into a, okay, everything's, you know, it's easier if you just get into a good routine to kind of maintain and everyone's always telling you that, but I'm not like that at all. And I think it's actually kind of makes life a little more interesting. Yeah, that's something I'm actually working on as leaning into being more flexible. I think having a routine is so helpful. And I love that about myself, but I like to stick to things that I set out to do. But too much of one thing is ever actually that healthy for you, right? So learning to lean into changing things up and trying new things and giving yourself the permission to do that is super important. So that's even just a great reminder for me. And maybe next time we get to chat, it will be rocking together in New York. So at her one stage, you know, for that, but thank you again, Emily, it was such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you, Stella. It was great talking to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the everyday endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being, and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time.