Ep. 126 | Interview With Cult Survivor India Oxenberg

Verustin pyöräilyvää teitä valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Mielestäni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Voimme hallinnoida yrityksen taustajaristeelle mien ja front-endia sekä myydä verkossa, vaivatta. Jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu Shopify-ssä. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify-piste-com-sivustolla. Olen Shannon Maldonado, käsintehtyjä artesaanitua teitä myyvän jaujiin lahjakaupan perustaja. Valitsin Shopify-koska alustoja testatessani totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista. Minulla oli tärkeää pohtia kehittymistämme tulevaisuudessa. Kaikki myyntiin tarvittavat työkalut, kuten varaston suunnittelu ovat kätävästi dashboardissä. Nobody joins occult. People join a business opportunity, a yoga retreat, a leadership seminar, a small church group that seemed warmer than the last one. Friends dinner party, a group chat, a guy online who seemed to understand something about the world nobody else was saying out loud. The door is never the thing you'd refuse. The door is always something you actually wanted, to be healthier, to be less lonely, to make more money, to be better than you were last year. The manipulation starts later, once you're already inside, and it moves slowly enough that you'd never get a single moment where you could look around and say, "This is where it went wrong." And for India, Oxford, the door was a class, and the cult, Nexium, sold itself as a self-help organization with personal development seminars, professional growth, and a community of ambitious people who seemed to have it all figured out. In India, was only 19 when she walked into her first class, alongside her mother, the actress Katherine Oxenberg. And her mother would walk away, but India would stay for several more years, recruited deeper by actress Alison Mack, and brought into does a secret inner circle group within the Nexium organization. And it functioned as a master slave pyramid scheme, used blackmail, punishments, and practice even branding. And India would also be abused by the man at the center of it all, the cult leader, the pathetic waste of oxygen, Keith Renier. But luckily, she would eventually get out with her mother's help, and now she's spent the years since turning that experience into something useful. She's executive produced the Docky series seduced inside the Nexium cult, which I highly recommend watching after this. And she wrote the memoir, Still Learning, and narrated the audiobook herself, which I also highly recommend listening to. And her poetry collection, which is so incredibly beautiful, from numb to normal, sits with the slow part. But the return to feeling after years of being controlled. And she speaks publicly about coercion and psychological manipulation, and how it actually works, and how ordinary it looks from the inside. And that's why I wanted to talk to her, because a story is a warning about seeing patterns, the isolation from people who knew you before, the information you handed over that becomes leverage later. The way the ask gets bigger by increments so small, you'd feel pretty dramatic refusing. And once you can see that, you start seeing it everywhere, in a relationship, in a job, in a friendship that slowly rearranged your life around someone else. I really feel like this interview can apply to anyone listening, so without further ado, here is India Oxenberg. It's Shannon Maldonado, the director of Artesean Institute of Technology, Jauhi Lahja Kaupan-Perusta. Valitsin Shopify, koska alustoja testa tessani totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista. Kaikki myyntiin tarvittava työkalut, kuten varaston suunnittelu, ovat kätevästi dashboardissa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste komsi vustolla. Verustin pyöräilyvaatteita valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Voimme hallinnoida yrityksen taustajaristelemien ja frontendia sekä myydän verkossa, vaivatta. Jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polku pyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu Shopify'sssä. Täällä on suurossa. Täällä on suurossa. Täällä on suurossa. Want it to be with so. far away because I was 19 years old and I think that I had such a high expectation that I was going to be like able to figure it out and know everything right away when just that's just really not how it works and now I just turned 35 and I'm like what an enormous amount of pressure like no wonder I was vulnerable I was also placing like an unrealistic expectation that this should be the thing that was going to help me granted that's how they position themselves so I wasn't entirely at fault like they literally were selling false self-knowledge. Yeah of course and there was there was intelligent what influential people in the group but I'm sure that your mom knew about what would go into it and you knew about her. She did it and my mom is like not a star-struck person at all like she forget like I have a story where she was in her 20s and she was playing tennis at the White House I guess against Johnny Depp and then she forgot who Johnny Depp was later he was like hey yeah we played tennis with the White House and she's like I don't remember. She's like my mom is like a really interesting and dynamic and charismatic person who isn't really like influenced by status so that wasn't really what we were going for when we were introduced by this trusted trusted friend it was kind of like sold to us as a personal development course that would also help us bond as a mother and daughter you know your 19 you feel like you should be able to relate to your children in a more adult way and I think like my mom was kind of open to us exploring that together she had no idea what Nexham was in the inner circles of it like we were so far removed at that point it wasn't until years later that you know the the grooming and the indoctrination really set in on me because I was also so young and so susceptible not that elder people were also not as influenced but there's something about like a young mind that just you just don't have a lot of life experience. And that's just normal exactly you're trying to find yourself you don't know who you are most people at least you know to get to some people who are like I'm going to be a doctor I'm going to I know I knew I was I look back at her and I'm like what's that like trying new things yeah sort of exploring getting to know yourself like especially if you're passionate about like creative endeavors I was open to all sorts of work even just like working for free until people would you know value what I was bringing but really I was in a like I said I was in a position where I was looking for mentorship and I I actually thought that I had found it in Nexham and slowly but surely I started to change and that was because of the influence that they had on me and like at the time you don't really see it like that because it's not it's not like the typical true crime issues where you're like that was the moment or that's the major red flag or he's the murderer it's like it's none of those obvious things it's the little things that add up to identity erosion it's not it's not just one thing and I think like if it was maybe I would have seen the red flag but I I just absolutely didn't yeah and the funny part with me is I'm a little bit stubborn so when I got out instead of just like you know focusing on the bad parts of Nexham it's like I I kind of started to question everything in my life like even good things so that was probably the hardest part to just reintegrate is that no you will rebuild trust like you will actually have healthy relationships again but it does take time like you can't just it's not just a switch that you flip and then all of a sudden you feel like the effects of coercive control completely dissolve it's literally just like the same way it was the little things to get you in it's also the little things that get you out so you can't really throw the baby out with the best water even though at times I really wanted to it I was just like fuck everything with self-help like this is all bullshit all you suck communities organize religions this that and then I was like all right hump the breaks like yeah you need to relax this isn't all bad like yeah but I really did like have to kind of like wrestle with that for a long time and I'm kind of like at this stage in my life where I'm starting to appreciate like the the ordinary things of life that are actually like quite wonderful and not dull but like coming out of a high control group is definitely a letdown because you're so used to this raw raw raw high and I think that's part of like the recruiting tools I'm an excited person I'm easily excited like I love new ideas I love good conversation all those things speak to me and I think that was partly what drew me in initially was like like what you said there I was meeting interesting older influential people who seemed to have their life together but then the eerie part was the closer that I got to the inner circle or the folks who are really running the show I was like you know this some things do seem off but then the idea of questioning or just pushing back on people who are in positions of authority isn't really something that you do in a high control group like you're actually discouraged from asking questions so like even if you were like myself kind of having moments of like this seems kind of inconsistent all of a sudden you start to rationalize and kind of push away your own instincts to the point where like weird shit gets normalized and that to me was when things started to get really really bad and it wasn't just my experience in ESP or nexium has it's more known in the public it was really when I got into like the cult within the cult which I was recruited by Allison Mack into what is called DOS when my life like got just way worse but I feel like at this stage kind of talking about the observations and like the learnings are really more important for people like I don't like talking about nexium per se but I will and I want to if it actually helps people I get calls and DMs from people leaving cults all the time and they're constantly saying to me I wish that I would have been able to see the red flags and I'm like you and me both like that's the hardest part is like you can't see these things until you see them but the more that we talk about them kind of normalize the things that are the smaller more subtle things that kind of take away your autonomy that to me is more important because then maybe in your real life you'll catch it before it gets too late or before it becomes something that's way out of your control which is definitely what my experience was so I'm hopeful that telling my story and just sharing these things will get people just being able to see them a little faster. One was the first time where you really felt like you wanted to continue this and your mom was your mom was maybe seeing the red flags. My mom is so funny because like when we I mean it's not that funny it's actually awful but when we first took the this course which was presented to us as ESP executive success performance. It literally makes me just like on a bar when I say it I'm just like sorry I've got an attitude but it's like I have resting pissed face but it was funny to me looking back because we kind of switched roles in the first five days I all of a sudden was like this very obedient real follower and my mom was acting like a disobedient kind of like back-of-the-class troublemaker with someone that she had made friends with and they were making fun of the course and I was watching her be reprimanded. It was literally embarrassing but now I'm looking back thinking like holy shit wish I would have been more like my mother literally like oh fucking mancy with the sass like I wish that would have been me but really like for some The reason the way that it was presented to me and the fact that I wanted to be accepted and liked so badly, like, talk about my kryptonite, I just wanted to be in the group. And then that I had no idea what that was going to inevitably entail, but at the time they looked cool. They were, like, professionals. They were people from Vancouver that were, like, professional actors. Yeah, I love Vancouver. It's just cool people. For a 19-year-old who is trying to, you know, find their way out of Los Angeles bubble, which can feel kind of, like, maybe restrictive if you're from there. Maybe expansive if you're going there and you've never experienced it. It's just, like, wherever you're from, sometimes you have, like, a little. The grass is always greener. Yeah. It literally always is. For me, it was, like, everything was new. It was exciting. I was looking at it as an opportunity. I didn't. I wasn't thinking, "Oh, these people are going to groom me." And then isolate me from my loved ones and then inevitably brand me, like, "No fucking way was I seeing that on day one or day five or day 16 for that matter." It took years of indoctrination and grooming for me to begin to normalize things that were absolutely toxic. I love Gen Z because they, like, call out all the things that are fucked up about, like, millennial work culture. And this was that on steroids because they're, like, you know, encouraging us to be sleep deprived, be food deprived, be, you know, constantly working. Never actually having any idle time to think or process on your own. It was just sort of, like, regurgitate these things that we tell you and then go out there and sell. And we were just, like, "All right." Yeah, exactly. And I was just, like, I'm really bad at this because I felt, like, such a faker at times. I'm trying to sell executive success programs. I don't know. Fucking successful. I'm not successful at this, but we were supposed to pretend like we were. And that was, like, "Con artistry." It was fake. In the worst way possible. Exactly. And then they're on top of it in these sort of groups which, you know, are focused on sales and recruitment. They're telling you that anyone who isn't interested in it is, like, stupid, the devil, you know, should be rejected from your life, doesn't understand you. And then all of that starts to make you believe that everyone in the group actually is replacing that. And so those things start to shift and my priorities just, like, completely changed. I was not the same person when I was under the influence of that group as I am now. And that is a little bit scary, like, that's the sci-fi brainwashing, like, that stuff's real. And I know that we are talking about cults and conspiracies and murders and all of the things. But, you know, Naxia really checked off a lot of those boxes. I was like, my younger self would have been like, "Why?" And you're like, "Why?" Yeah, hindsight's released. Couldn't you have done something more conventional? Go on. You're like, join the Peace Corps. Yeah. Like, do something else. Like, what is it called? Like, whoa, fun a farm or something. It's just, it's literally just time. It's a wrong place. Wrong time. Wrong place. Wrong time. In the realest sense, like, you just got plopped here and you could have gotten plopped anywhere. And that was probably the route you were going to go. Because I just remember being 19 so well and just being like, so confident with every decision. And I don't know how. Confident, but also like, not. No, no, no. That's how you make it. Yeah. Confidence. And then, I don't know if you were similar for you, but I know for me and my mom or my parents, I was like, I know. I got it. Yeah. And there was just so much of that. And you're, you want to be, and maybe it's as women, you just, you want to be independent. You want to be successful in your own way, not having somebody. Granted to you. Exactly. So it silver plopped. Whatever it is. Wherever it is. Wherever it is. Absolutely. It's just like, no, I'll find myself. Yeah. And I think it just, it just makes sense to me. And I think it's come from a lot of looking at these types of. People and the cases and. And it's just, I have so much. Just empathy and sympathy and just understanding. And yeah, I mean, and it's the process of it too. It's like, so you went from this one five day program and then you're like, let's, let's take you over to this. We're like a next step. To the next step and then is that, the next step is not with your family, is that, or was it with your family? Some of it was. Some of it wasn't. Okay. And I think when I, and I, I do talk about this in my book a lot because that period of time, I wasn't really like in, in. Like I was later and I think that's sometimes a common misconception is that, like, I was deeply involved. I was deeply involved from the beginning. It really wasn't, it actually took like a couple years for me to, for my mindset to really shift to the point where I was considering, like, making this my entire life. And a lot of that had to do with like guilt and pressure and kind of the influences around me. It's not just, like, I don't even think that I cared about Keith or Nancy at that point. Like, they were not really the reason that I was there. The reason I was there was because I thought that this was going to give me the life skills that I needed to then, you know, be an entrepreneur. Or like, whatever it is that they were selling, they were selling like, that this was the equivalent to a practical MBA with literally no, like, no credentials. So, like, hello red box. But also, like, like what you said, hindsight is 2020. Yeah. I just, like, I don't know, I just feel like my younger self, like, I wish that I could have swooped in there and gave her some good advice. But I also know myself enough to know that sometimes even when something good stops you in the face, if you don't, if you can't see it, or you don't have a reference point for it, it's like, you know, you could also reject that too. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, like you said, they weren't giving you a moment. They're just figuring yourself out for you. Yeah. And just another 101. Yeah. And the thing that I think would be a red flag now that's kind of like a nuanced red flag is what you just said is that when you're deferring to someone else as the authority of who you are, it's, it's like it can go both ways. Sometimes you need to defer a little bit because people are giving you good information about yourself. Maybe they're actually trying to help you. But if you're deferring to somebody who actually has bad intentions, then you're vulnerable. Like, that's when things get bad. Yeah. It's just because your heart might be pure. And you might be saying like, oh, this person genuinely wants to be my friend. They're looking out for me. They care about me. You might be thinking all of that and they are not. Yeah. And that's the part that my 19 years health just like, I don't know, I'm like super trusting. And I also just take what people say at face value a lot. Like I sometimes have to have my husband like answer like, was that supposed to be a joke or is that actually like literally what you mean? Yeah. Because I'll just say as that. Yeah. And he's like, no, and you're like, that was sarcasm. That was a joke. I'm like, okay, God. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes that's just how I like, I'm like delayed in my processing. And I'm more like of a feeling person who I'll just like, well, it makes me feel weird. Yes. But those environments really pressure you to move quickly and not to evaluate. And I confused the intensity with like purpose and meaning, not a fucking con sales tactic. That literally puts you in a pressure vacuum that makes you really like alters your decision making because you're not able to really just like sit back and think like, is this really what I want? You're just sort of like, oh, yeah, shoot. Got to choose. Yeah. So I'd say like, if you're finding yourself in relationships where you feel like you constantly need to respond or react or make a choice that's quick. That's something to look at. Absolutely. Because it can, I mean, you know, cults aside or groups aside, it can just happen in a relationship with totally absolutely toxic relationship where you feel like you have to be subservient to this person. Otherwise, something's going to happen. Maybe you don't know what maybe you do know what. And there's just that constant. nagging, feeling like, oh, I'm letting somebody down first just they keep you here and they need to be here. And yeah, just and yeah, that isolation I feel like is it seems like that's one of the first red flags is like you're getting pulled into something where they're like, well, that doesn't matter. Don't listen to that and they want to bring you down. I'm the person that you should be focusing on and I know better. So yeah, 100%. It is really important and it's I know for me when I was younger that watching something like what you went through, it is eye-opening and I mean I did watch watch your series when it first came out and at a time where I was in something that wasn't great and I was like, oh my gosh, like it you really do make a difference and I want you to know that. Oh, thank you. Yeah, you really do. Thank you. I just like honestly felt so, so scared to to put my story out there and to just like pretty much like reclaim and public narrative that felt really dismal. Like I just didn't at a certain point in my recovery especially like when I was first out and for the first couple of years I just didn't know how I was going to recover from this. Like I had so much struggle with my mental health and like with suicidal ideation and things that I just did not understand were the aftershocks of course of control. Like I hate using these words sometimes because they're so clinical and like definition heavy and I'm like sorry but that doesn't help me. Like I rather have somebody who tells me what something felt like or what they started to give up. Like I keep coming back to the little things because I've been thinking about this constantly of like the identity erosion and then also choosing to be liked in the moment but then abandoning yourself whether it's the music you like to listen to the way that you like to dress how you like to do your makeup how you speak in a at the table what you share what you don't share like all of those things to me are pointing out like who's in charge because if you're in a dynamic where the power is inverted but you can't see it it's usually like you sense it but then if you're told that the things that you're feeling are not real then the very thing that you could use to actually help yourself snap out of you know a toxic case or what feels like a drug-induced you know relationship because you're partly like addicted to the poison but you're also being heavily influenced by it so it's like you can't blame yourself entirely and that's really hard not to because you're just like why am I just a stupid fool like I should have been able to see this no you cannot sometimes like the things that are like the things that I wish that I could have seen it's like I've spent so much time crying about it that I'm like tired of crying about it you just kind of have to realize like wow I just like really was wrong yeah it's just okay yeah I don't think you want to that was not love no absolutely I was not a friend no yeah no and I think it's so human to just not want to think that of yourself not want to think that you you could be pulled into that or you could let someone it's embarrassing manipulate you like that it shouldn't be but it is it like sure it is but it shouldn't be but it's hard to not feel like damaged goods for sure and I think that's like where the healing actually starts and like sometimes people ask me like what did you do and I'm like it's not just one thing like like let me tell you that if it was one thing I'd be addicted to it yeah but like it's literally not that I'm just going to say from experience it's like it's a slew of things that start to help you kind of like get your head on straight and also see things for what they are not what you want them to be because sometimes the things that you want so badly to be something else just get blinded by that's like being loved drunk and like not being able to decipher is this actually filling me or is this just like the thing that I'm obsessed with yeah you know what I mean and it's it's becoming unhealthy so it's like the I'm talking in circles I feel like but it's just kind of like it's been harder to process than I thought writing really helps me because sometimes like feeling things in the moment or like talk therapy is still kind of triggering so I take that more like sporadically yes I use a lot of other things that kind of like give me the healing that I need to feel good inside and like just not always one thing and I think that's what Nexin was trying to promise was that they were the savior to all of our problems In the past, when Shopify had been in the market, it was the first time that it was in the market. In the past, it was in the market. minute. My personal belief is that we have a lot more flexibility in our minds and in our emotional capacity that can actually like, you know, work with ourselves a little bit more than being so black and white and rigid. But that's not what they like. They want you to think that the only thing that's going to cure you is them. Yeah, and then they use whatever vulnerability you have against yourself. Yeah, like, forever, I thought I was stupid. So like, I would tell them that constantly, like, oh, I'm, you know, I don't think I'm not educated enough. I don't have enough, you know, intelligence or capacity or, you know, critical thinking skills. And so, like, they would tell me like, oh, you're ornamental, you're, you know, not, you don't have a lot of substance, you don't really have anything to offer. Like all these things that then you start to believe like, am I actually a piece of shit? And then you forget completely that maybe you aren't a piece of shit. I'm just being told to you. Yeah, like, I didn't realize how far from myself, I could actually get to the point where even just looking at myself in the mirror, I just didn't recognize my own face. Like, I didn't have a spark in my eyes. I just, I wasn't taking care of myself. All these things looking back are red flags, but like I said, in the moment, I'm very hard to see. Absolutely. Not absolutely. And those were kind of the first steps then with, with first the isolation. Then, then you're, you're letting your whole self out on a plate and they're picking you apart and building you up, building you up where you need to be built up and where they're like, oh yeah, we can manipulate that. And then, and then what, what, what do you think is what's the next step for you in that whole process of growing? Probably just total erosion of loyalty. Like, I just had no loyalty to my family, my friend, my, the relationships that I had had before. I had lost it and had replaced it with them thinking that that was going to be the thing that was going to fill me up. But they were also selling me that. And it's like I was in a total bubble and thinking that what we were doing was amazing. And like what I told you at the beginning of the interview of how much real estate is occupied in my mind. I couldn't even realize that until like, I left. And it took a long time because even after I left, I was still in, you know, active law issues. I was working with the FBI for nine months. Then he was sentenced. Then I put the documentary out in 2020. I put my book out my entire life was revolving around next-sem adjacent things that I just sort of had to pump the brakes and say like, wait, like, what is my life? Not just in reaction to the next-sem saga and chaos. And that's when it kind of felt like a weird letdown of like normal ordinary life didn't have the same kind of like intensity in charge. So I had to kind of find like what brought me well-being and peace and didn't just make me super sad. Yeah. He's living it over and over again. We even have time to open a window and just scream. Yeah, we're just into the abyss. We'll just like go for a walk. Yeah. It's like a meaningless walk that doesn't have to do with like past drama or trauma. So that's kind of like where I've been trying to get to. And I feel like I really like becoming a mom has really helped me see my mom in a totally different way. I just didn't have the empathy for her and what it would take her and the amount of guilt that she must have felt even for being a part of introducing me like my god. Because she was she was checked out after pretty quickly. Yeah, pretty quick. She had a whole life. Yeah. She knew her self. She knew herself. She knew she didn't need this. Yes. I was in a very different stage of life. Yes. So it's like, you know, different tie. I think different groups or different people. Who are predatory look for people who have vulnerabilities because they know how to exploit them. And that's creepy. Yes. But unfortunately there are people out there that think like that. And they're looking for, you know, the lonely person on a chat room who doesn't have any friends that you know, might be retired or they're looking for the young girl who just joined, you know, a new job and is feeling like lot like there's times in your life that do make you more vulnerable but also on some level like everyone's kind of susceptible to manipulation. Just bearing degrees, I guess. Yeah, so when you were joined it a little bit more and your your mom just kind of let you go and just said, you know what, try it, do it. I mean, I was 19, 20. I was also like, I had been living on my own. I don't think she was like, keeping tabs on me. We didn't have air tags. Right. Like, back then, my also like, my mom trusts me and I've always been really independent. So I think she was just assuming that I was off doing my own life and trying to find a balance. She didn't see the group as nefarious in the beginning. It wasn't until years later that she got information of the group within the group DOS and then that's really what ignited her to take it down. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, that was by design, but we don't want anybody on the outside to know what's going on. No, you're trained to lie too. So like, even if somebody asks you how you're doing, you're supposed to be like, I'm fine. Everything's great. I love it here. But there's a part of you that's like, and that's the weird part is even though I was so far from myself and I lost myself, there were moments where I would even say to other coaches never to like hire up because you weren't supposed to show any doubt. I'd be like, I've got one foot in and one foot out. There was even, there was many moments where I felt like, why am I saying that I want to be a proctor? I don't want to be a proctor. I don't want to do this for my life. I'm just trying to like get the tools so that I can apply them to my own life. And that was just like such a lie to think that the thing that I was missing was more of them, you know, not actual like living my own life and like learning like you normally do. In a relationship at this point? Yeah, getting what? I wasn't a relationship. I'm like, does everybody have to talk about all their bad access because I've got to slay. And so one of them would be in there. We don't have to name him, but yeah, that sucked. He was older than me. He was like my superior. There was no love in that relationship. It was sort of like, I think, a flirtation that then turned into a relationship of convenience that then turned into disgruntled roommates. So I was really confused about like how to get out of that. I was struggling. And then that was the moment when I was recruited. When that relationship was falling apart, which it was also pressured to fall apart because the higher ranking members were really involved in our relationship. So red flag, love you Gen Z. If someone in your workplace is meddling with your relationship, it's a red flag. Unfortunately, I was in a bubble that they were meddling with this relationship so that I would be vulnerable to the relationship with Keith and Allison. And that I didn't realize that that was what was happening. Yes. Yes. And Allison, were you were you told to end the relationship that person by Allison? Yeah, which I think was also directed by Keith. I mean, everything comes from him. So it's like to me, I mean, I found a lot of forgiveness for myself and other people in the group, but not for Keith. The things that he did are in my experience, unforgivable. So I don't give him that. But other people in there, I see them sort of more like puppets. Yeah. And with Allison, how did that dynamic work going into DOS? Was she, was she like a friend to you? Yeah, I thought she was. It was like that getting into it. It was just like, I had to scroll so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Like that easy. She's adventurous. And I thought she was cool and charismatic and very outgoing and friendly and talented. I didn't really know much of her work outside of the group. But within the group, there were a lot of performances and a lot of people with many skills, like whether I was singing or dancing or acting. And so when I saw her performing, I was like, damn, I want that kind of confidence. And then when she approached me, it kind of felt like I was getting an opportunity to learn from somebody who I admired in the group. I didn't see it as creepy or like that maybe she was attracted to me. I didn't see any of those things. That didn't get revealed to me until later. And then I also thought she was kind of like joking. And then I realized, oh, she's not joking. But then it was too late. Like I couldn't say no. At that point, I was already collateralized. - Yes. - So it was kind of like a weird realization that this person that I had been devoting all my energy and time to was not my friend. That really hurt because I think I had just assumed that we were, but no, friends don't treat you like that. Friends don't build you up, them break you down. Obviously you have disagreements like with friends the same way that you do with a husband or partner or whomever. It's just normal, but it doesn't mean catastrophe or total rejection or any of those things. Like that's kind of how our relationship was. Like I was always scared of disappointing her or making her angry. And it's not a way to live. - And friends don't have, I mean she was, there was a, there was a stools. She was up here and you were down here. And she's made to feel you and make you feel like you were always below her. - Yes, with the belief that the reason that you have that hierarchy is so that you can grow and evolve. And so it's like you already have to have the belief system that you need to be subservient or, you know, in a position of like, I don't know it's so weird. It's like the way that it was spun was sort of like, like a weird spiritual lesson that if we, I was gonna use the word, like if, I could not say this word before. So now I can actually say it, but like if we mastered this dynamic of being subservient that that was gonna result in some kind of like major growth for us. So that belief got twisted into the fact that if we could experience pain, that meant we were gonna grow. And like all of that just became a slippery slope to really like destructive behavior that hurt me and hurt other people. And it's just like, yeah, hard to see that. - Yeah, absolutely. And not to mention the, like you mentioned, the collateral that they had over you, they would take advantage of you and make you give some information or imagery that you would otherwise not do unless you hadn't already gone through it at this point for years in. And that's just what you feel like you do. And then that's just blackmail. - They just have blackmail on you. - I had no idea. - So that's what was going on. - No, of course. But I'm sure, I mean, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, I'm sure that's something that's in the back of your head when you do have those thoughts of like, maybe I should, maybe this isn't right, but oh wait, no, they have that. Like did that, was that ever a thing that happened? I think that I was so compartmentalized when it came to the collateral because I was actually really afraid, but I wasn't allowed to feel the fear or express that I was feeling afraid. - Yeah. - So I turned it into kind of like, I don't wanna think about this. So when they would demand collateral, I just started to like make things that were more oriented towards me because I was so afraid that like if I made any mistakes, that it could be detrimental to the people that I loved and that's really what kept me there. I kind of didn't care about humiliating myself anymore because I was sort of like used to constantly humiliating myself that I thought, well, better be me than somebody else. But like, leaving and knowing that all that information is out there definitely bothers me and it still bothers me. But I feel like I'm finding my way out of that kind of traps that they tried to place on us forever, which is just like an enormous amount of shame and realize that like whatever, if there's a photo out there, if there's a video or if there's a this, sure, I can explain myself or I can just be like, yeah. That's me, that's what I said when I was under the influence and I feel like foolish or ashamed or sad that I was in that situation. Not like I'm permanently damaged and I'm gonna be rejected forever, which is kind of like what they want us to believe. - But you're in a place now you're married and you have a beautiful little girl. And yeah, I mean, but looking back again, it's just. - Yeah, and I have like real love in my life and I actually like really value it and it's taking me a long time to recognize like how valuable and precious real love and real relationships are. And I just, I won't make that same mistake again. I mean, I make plenty of other mistakes. Pretty regular. - Yeah, you're human. (laughing) - But I'm pretty damn sure that I will not be putting myself in a situation like that. - Yeah, yeah, you've taken that control back. That's gotta feel so good. - Yeah, it does. It makes me feel like I've got a sixth sense. I've got something that I know can see that I was pretty blind to before. - Yeah, at the point that you joined DOS, what were the years that you just joined and then DOS happened? - 2015 to 2017. - Okay. - Don't quote me, but I hope I see for read the book. - Yeah, it's accurate. - Yeah, so years. - Years have gone by, DOS is happening and you are basically just under, under Alison at this point and whatever she says goes in terms of, so are you working at this point? Are you just pet? - I'm like a house pet. - Okay, so you're just living with her at this point with other women as well? - Yes, but I was kind of like the primary one in her home. And other women were involved in the group that we were in. Some of them have been able to maintain their anonymity. God bless them, some have not. But I was kind of like a favorite, which was really kind of like my way of making sure that I was less of a target. And so I think that's kind of like the role that I chose because it made me feel safer if she liked me a little bit. And I'd clean her house, I'd do her laundry, I'd cook for her, but I was in a constant state of just panic because any moment she could get upset or like demand something or I didn't do something right and that kind of like just jacked up my nervous system so much that I really forgot my own needs completely. Like I was just, I had replaced her voice for mine and really ultimately all of that was coming from Keith, but the influence of her was heavy on me. - Just walking on eggshells constantly. - Yeah, yeah. You know, I like to think that I wouldn't be in a situation like that. But yeah, really like did a number on me. - Yeah. - Yeah, I just like don't know what to say about her. Just like, and you don't have to say anything if you. - She just is like a person that I have such mixed feelings about. And I know people usually want like a definitive answer about things or they want to know that you've like, come to terms and you're like fully resolved and I think I rather just say like I forgive her because I do, 'cause what am I gonna do? Walk around feeling like fuck a bitch. Like for the rest of my life, no. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not that kind of person like, I don't want that kind of energy in my body and my mind. So I think I just kind of like, you know what? You do you, you go live your life, you did your time, like you have a harder life to rebuild. I feel very lucky because I have been able to rebuild my life and have love and have support and have like been rebuilding my career and my networking and like all these things that I love and cherish. I just see like my life going in the direction that I could never have imagined. So it's like I'm not gonna just let myself get dragged back by that painful time of my life. - Yes. - But yeah, I just like lived in her house and I was doing like tasks for people in the community kind of like a Uber taskrabbit kind of person. She's everybody's consolidated into one place, right? - Yeah, and they all did like gofers and things like that. So I was, yeah like people that run errands. - Oh, that's right. - Yeah, I thought that was an actual gofers. - Yeah, no gofers were harmed in this cult. But it was more like I acted as a, - Yes. - Shhh, shhh, shhh, you know. - You're the errand girl. - Errant girl, yes. Which in some way gave me like this large sense of purpose because I was now in service to the leadership and doing things that they needed. But I also had no, I was on the hamster we all, like I wasn't going anywhere in my life. But I was made to believe that this was a great honor. - Mm-hmm, right. And then if you were to do anything bad, there was repercussions for that. - Yeah, consequences is how they framed it. - Yeah, those sorts of words. - Yeah, they're just lots of word bullshit. - Right, right. And that's what kept you on your toes and on those eggshells as up. It wasn't just you're doing these things at any, at any moment somebody could be upset with what you're doing. Most likely, what's his face? - Yeah, but Voldemort. - Yeah, yeah. - Voldemort. - But really, he was like supposed to be good cop in like our dynamic. He played like good cop and Allison played bad cop. - Yes. - So then I would come to him and he would be like the savior. - Yes. - But at some point that relationship becomes more than just him being over here and you being over here. - Yeah. - And he's just. - Then you don't have to go until. - Like, he, I mean, that, the way that that happened was also by design. And so like well orchestrated that I didn't even notice, like I just remember thinking like, wait. That's what I have to do. Like kind of just like scared and uncomfortable. Like I didn't want to have that kind of relationship with Keith, although I knew other women did. Like they, people, and I, when I say this, like don't take what I'm saying as an exact like, when I say people wanted to be in a relationship with him, people wanted to have babies with him. I think all of those wants and desires came from being brainwashed and manipulated into believing that this guy was the second comment. - Absolutely. - And it's like when all of that got stripped away, I think the people who saw him for what he was, you know, they came out from underneath it. But those who couldn't might still be under the influence of something. So it's like, I was under that influence. I was believing that what he was giving to me was some like spiritual exchange or that I was gonna grow or that it was supposed to be healing or helpful. And it was like literally the opposite. Like so far from it. I talk a lot about that experience in my book and in the documentary and it's yucky. But also, that was pretty hard to snap out of. Like it took a lot of, I'm gonna say it took a lot of courage on my part to admit what had actually happened versus what I was being told was going on. - Right, 'cause it was supposed to be some sort of honor or the next step in this cog. - Yeah, it's just like bullshit. - Basically rape, like, and that's the part that I think was so startling for me coming out is that I believed that what was happening to me was somehow helpful when I was literally just like terrified. And like frozen, I mean, that kind of stuff doesn't change over an idea either. I mean, unfortunately it takes a while. Like your body just remembers stuff more than your brain sometimes. So even just like being touched or being intimate with someone who loves you, you still kind of have like the aftershocks that feel like you're like one of those operation dolls and like somebody touched you around a wrong place and you're just like, whoa, like what does happen? Oh my God, and then he needs to catch up. - Exactly and all of a sudden you're not in your body anymore and you're just sort of like responding and that kind of shit can really like throw a relationship into like a state of fear. Even if the person like loves you, sometimes it's still really hard to connect and like have that kind of intimacy. It takes a lot of like building trust and communication and like thank God for my husband because and other people who have really helped me like rebuild that kind of sense of peace and friendship and like intimacy because I don't wanna live a whole life feeling completely like tarnished. - No. - No, I really like like my goal is to like really, really let myself enjoy my sexuality. - Yeah. - And not be, not have it be like permanently damaged because it just feels like then he just wins. - Exactly. - You know, and he wins forever because if he can take that from me forever, then I never get like the joy or like the little pleasure of you know, having my own autonomy, being able to say having the ability to say no and yes, like, how do you? - Yeah, you know, you're at that stage with Keith and then moving forward. I mean, was was there anything else before your mom stepped in or? - Oh, just a lot of chaos. - Yeah. - Just like fear, chaos kind of like my whole world crumbling around me. - Yeah. - Good laugh about it now, but honestly, I was just like, what the fuck is happening? Like I wasn't sure what the state of my life was gonna be. I was so in it, I was not processing things at that point. Yeah, I was really scared. Like I was just trying to at one point have a normal job and like, you know, put distance between myself and Nexium, but unfortunately I wasn't quite there yet. Like I still had a lot to clean up 'cause just because you're under the influence or your brainwash doesn't mean that unfortunately, like, you're still there making choices that have repercussions. Obviously I, as an advocate, really believe an understanding course of control for this very reason because especially for those who have been born into groups or who are indoctrinated late early or young like myself, you, yeah, your decision-making just gets changed and you're not really acting on your own free will because you're so heavily influenced. You don't have the same choice that somebody who feels the ability to say no has. So I really like fight for that kind of understanding 'cause I have a lot of, like you, I have a lot of sympathy for people who'd made choices while they were under the influence of trying to just survive. - Yeah. - Like when you're trying to survive, you do weird shit and like, you're not always thinking about the future or the consequences that that might have on you. You're thinking about how do I survive this moment? And so I hope that, like, if there's someone who's listening to this, who has guilt or shame over the choices that they made while they were under the influence of the toxic group or individual that they realize, like, that's not your permanent character. That's literally an adapted version of yourself who is really, like, just trying to make it. So that version of me that was just trying to make it made a lot of mistakes that I also have great, like, regret and guilt for how I treated people, how I treated myself, how I dealt with my finances, things that I would just, like, avoid altogether that were, like, dangerous. - Yeah. - Like, all of that, adaptive. How I function with things now, a lot more honesty and a lot more communication, but not perfect. - Yeah. - Like, no, no. I mean, so it's like, it's a process of kind of getting the sludge off and then sort of like feeling that like, you know, flexibility in yourself again, that isn't just like trauma response, response. Yes, spiral. Yeah, self-destruct. Oh, the worst corner. It's just like one, two, three, four, and I was like, oh, fuck. I'm here again. Why, why? And then I was just like, oh my god, how long is this gonna take? Yeah. And it really does take time. Yeah, naturally. So as it should and be honest, we more concerning if you were just like, eh, I'm all right. Honestly, the reason why I wrote the poetry was just to understand the messiness of what leaving feels like. Yeah. Because sure, I can give you this very analytical answer of what I believe happened and how Nexium affected me, but that's so removed from what it actually felt like. Like for me, writing the poetry was just trying to make sense of like my own internal chaos that I thought that leaving would just kind of like, relieve me of. Yeah, but it doesn't. Or it didn't for me at least. Yeah. Oh, and that makes, I mean, you're human beings with feelings. It's not as easy as like, oh, she was here and that's probably because of this. And she's probably gonna, it's so, yeah, it's not, it's, it's not clinical. And also with the grooming, it's you like, I carry a lot of guilt because I recruited other people into this after you joined us. Well, we were, yeah, we were instructed to recruit other people. And I also talk about this in the documentary because it was not like, I didn't want to do that. I was already compromised and collateralized and then required to recruit other people. And like that to talk about another layer of identity crisis because I really considered myself someone who was trusting and caring. And I would like other people to think of me as a trusting, caring person. But that person was, you know, just trying to survive the chaos. And I like, don't want to make excuses for myself in that sense because I also have gone to some of those people that I've recruited and apologized. And it's just like, it's still bothers. Yeah. Even though I know that they're out there living their life. And I think overall everyone wants each other to do well. And like, we're not best friends. We're not like calling each other. It wasn't like he had that long of relationships. But it's still like, still bothers me. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it still actually motivates me to do the work that I want to do, which is telling more of these stories and like, giving people a platform to talk about these things that are not just black and white and that have nuance to them. And, you know, I really, I don't want people to feel like they're stupid or foolish for making these types of you know, choices in their lives that might not have had the greatest outcomes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And at that point, with the recruiting and your, that's kind of around the time when your mom was finding out that information that you were speaking about before. Yeah. Kind of a saving grace almost. Especially the timing it seemed like. I mean, kind of like, like, literally fully a saving grace, although from my perspective, because we were so estranged by the group, we, our communication was non-existent. Like, we couldn't communicate. I was speaking such a different language because I was speaking cult. Yes. And she was speaking reality. Yes. And we could not bridge that gap until after I got out. I was just too influenced by them. I had not had, you know, I just, I was so far from myself like I said that I literally felt like we were speaking different languages. Like, she would tell me one thing and I'd be like, that's not what I was rehearsed to say. Yes. And she would be like, oh my god, like, this is not my child. Now, as a mom, I'm like, man, like, that would be so hard to not just grab your daughter and be like, do not see what's going on. Because I literally just like, yes. I mean, like, her, the franticness that she must have been feeling the fear, the guilt, the all of these things that, at the time, I was just like, oh, she's overreacting because that's what they were also wanting me to believe that, oh, she doesn't understand what you're actually doing. She doesn't get it. Like, actually, she does. Yeah. She's the only one that seems like. Yeah. Yeah. And she, and I mean, she found out about all this because of someone that left. Yeah. Someone that left and then did they report what was happening? Yeah. And I think it was a group of people who had left before I had left. And unfortunately, I didn't see the writing on the wall as quickly as I'd like to admit. I told you I was a little slow. You were the deepest. I mean, I'd like to think that I wasn't the deepest. Or not the deepest. But I could say I was really on the, like, if there was a top circle, yes. Fortunately, I was probably one circle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was close. But I wasn't, I was not a top dog. Yeah. No, no, no. No, no. But it's too close to see the light. And too obedient in their dynamic to question properly. So I think I was still just in the soup. And it took me a longer time. But required distance because the more distance that I got, the more my brain allowed me to relax enough to start to question. But that didn't come with, like, relaxation in a peaceful way. That came with, like, constantly moving, constantly thinking, constantly walking. Like, I just didn't know what to do with my anxiety because I was so scared. But I also knew that I had to just, like, keep going. And that's kind of how I did it. Yeah. Yeah. I also used to think about like, what would I see now, since I saw her on the street? And honestly, I feel like I'd still be kind of paralyzed. Yeah. Because I remember when I first got out and I would be like, walking the brick and bridge, and I would see people with, like, her kind of bun. And I would just be like, "Oh my god, maybe it's her. I'm terrified." And so I realized, like, that's weird. Like, you shouldn't, like, it's sometimes awkward to see like a teacher outside of school or like an ex-boyfriend. But like, you shouldn't be in a state of terror for your friends. Yeah. Like, that's problematic. That's not a threat at all. Oh, that happens. Yeah. Keith fucks off. Yeah. Until Mexico. Because things are getting bad because people are coming out of next year. Right. He's still in like that crib. You'll like this because of all of your studies. But like, he's still in that criminal, like, delusion, where they are both extremely paranoid because they kind of know that what they're doing is wrong. But they're also so delulu that they still don't think that they're going to be caught and they're like shocked that the authorities are coming, although they're paranoid about that. Yeah. So you're like, what? Yeah, the level of like, grander, blatant, narcissistic grander is crazy. It's like, I'm untouchable. Look at all these people that love me and kiss me whenever I want and do, let me do whatever I want to them. It's just disgusting. Yeah. And it's so sweet that when he was arrested, he was cowering in a closet. Yeah. I know. I do think so. Just like, honestly, I feel like that part kind of like brings a laughter that I really would like that is really healing. I like a little comedic relief, even if it means making fun of myself. I enjoy it. Making fun of Keith. I also really enjoy because like, what else am I going to do? He's sitting in prison. I'm here free and like, enjoying barbecue, having barbecue and like, taking a 20-minute shower at the hotel. Oh, yeah. That was great. It was great. So good. My husband's a chef and he also makes barbecue. So like, I told him when I was going to come here that I'm like eating barbecue and that's the end of the story. But like, what am I going to do? Like, the same thing with Allison. Am I going to spend every day of my free life with him occupying real estate? Hell no. Yeah. Like, I already have intrusive thoughts. I don't need to add to it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't need that. I just like, it's self-awareness. It makes it worse for me. Yeah. Sometimes I can't even like watch cult documentaries. I can't watch true cut. I can barely listen to it sometimes because it really like activates me. Like, last night I was watching PBS antique roadshow for like four hours just to decompress after I was looking at my notes. Outshow. Thinking like, this is the kind of programming that I meet right now. That's good. Yes, absolutely. Cooking shells are like, Emily and Paris is like surface level. Not a big deal. Maybe I'm stunned. Bluey is really doing it for me recently. My daughter doesn't even watch it. am I putting this honor for myself? - Yeah. - It was lost really in dogs. (laughing) - But that's the kind of self-awareness that I've had to build, is it? - Sometimes I'm, I can be really serious and heavy, but that's also not really my nature. Like sometimes I'm inappropriate and I have like moments of levity that make people uncomfortable. And I can be okay with that too. I'm also like sympathetic and I can be serious to people's traumas, but like the thing that keeps me going is I look at other people's lives who are far more traumatic than me. People that I have mentored or have worked with or have come to me and shared their stories. And I'm like, damn, I'm so lucky. Like they put it in perspective for me because the kinds of trauma that they've had to overcome and they still show up, it's like that's the human spirit that really gets me through some of my own slush. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that relatability. And you never know what's going on in somebody else's life or what they're going through. Or when they go home, what's going on at home? And it's just. - But I do look for it more than I used to. Like sometimes even when I'm going through the airport or something, I'll look at mostly women or children. I'll look at their faces, I'll look at how they like carry, how they're carrying themselves, how they interact with the husband or the parents. And like sometimes I feel things that I'm like, no, it's going on there and it's not like, I haven't lost my instinct or my desire to help people. Like I just still have it even though I've been burned. I still have it. But I also know that like not everyone's fight is my fight. - Mm-hmm. - So I try to use my powers more. - Carefully. - You're responsible. - I try to be responsible with my ex-mem hours because I just like, it's like, I can easily just over-give. And sometimes I need to just like feel like, all right, shut up. Which is really hard for me because I love to talk. - Yeah. - Well, I'm glad. - No, I mean, I'm sorry. - You're fight with hell for so long. And now you're just free to do that. And I think it's better to do it than to not. - I do too. - And you know, even if it's just dropping a little seed, like I think that's a little weird. - Yeah. - It's just like, oh, okay. Because sometimes those seeds really bloom in people. And they're like, oh, okay, that's actually what I needed to know that this is bad. - Yeah. - It sometimes-- - You need someone to tell you, yeah. - You do. You do. And maybe nothing comes of it. And they'll have to figure it out themselves, which happens a lot as well. - But sometimes you do have to say something and that's a hard line, but. - It is true. - It is. It's better. I think it really is better than to not. As I'm getting older, I'm 30, 30 this year. - I'm just like, yeah. - What's your birthday? - July 1st. - It's coming up real quick. - Yep. - So I'm sticking. - Yeah, but. - 30's cool. - Sorry? - 30's cool. - 30's cool. - I just got like five years into it and I feel like I'm still a glorified teenager. - Yeah. - But. - You are. - No, I have to be in a position where like someone's calling me mom and I'm like, wait. - Yeah. - Who? - Me. - But I'm like, oh, yes. I'm the grown-ups. I am the grown-ups. - I know. - If I ever get pregnant, I'm like that. I will be a teenage pregnancy. - Yeah. - I'm 40. That's not me. Yeah, I'm a millennial too. So I'm kind of in that costume. But yeah, I think as I've gotten older and I feel like as you just get older, you just start to care more, but also care less. - Mm-hmm. - It's just like, you know what? No, I'm going to say something. - Yeah. - Because who's going to hurt her? I'm going to start over. - Like, why wait till we're 80? - Yeah. - Or why wait till my, you know, my grandma's 90. I don't want to wait that long to be direct. Like I would rather, you're right. Like, rather take the risk of maybe being misunderstood or not liked, but at least I know that I said my piece. - Yes. - And you can always be wrong. - Yeah, of course. Yeah, and it's the big people pleasing thing. And I think it really is something that women specifically, it's just like indoctrinated in us. - Yeah, for, I know. There's some women that are like bad ass bitches and they don't care what anybody thinks. But I know for me, I'm just like, I've been such a pushover. - Yeah, I'm more like, I'm lean more towards wanting to be liked and pleased. - Yeah. - I'm pleasing other people. But I also am kind of like getting into that era where I want to channel my inner Anthony Bourdain and give less fucks. - Yes. - Caramora, but give less fucks. - Yeah, exactly. - There can be a balance. - Absolutely. - Yeah, but I'm often like, well, I'm trying to figure something out, go into the extremes. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You're like a black and white in the gray areas. - Yeah. - But I'm like, oh, that's where I could live. - Yeah. - Exactly. - Yeah, I guess you're caught with your pants down. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, they are. - And people were with him too, right? People from within. - Yeah, people from the inner circle. - They're all there, kind of like protecting him. Probably still, you know, obviously believing the bullshit. - Mm-hmm. - Mm-hmm. - And then when he got arrested, where were you at that point? - I was in New York City. - I was in with Allison. - No, she was on. - That was gone. - Yeah, she, I was there alone. - Yeah. - That's when I was trying to just like maintain a regular job in the same restaurant group where I met my then boyfriend, no husband. - Oh, really? - Yeah. - He was literally making pizzas. - Really? - Yeah. - Nice. - So I remember the day when he was, arrested, and then there was some convictions soon after it's a little bit of a blur because it was all kind of just like, phonetic or frantic energy. I just kind of remember like not being able to fully process it because I think if I did, I'd have to sort of reassess a lot of the things that I had also normalized. And I just wasn't there yet. Like, I just was in a state of shock and kind of survival mode as everything crumbled around. So I was just trying to just like keep it together. Honestly, I just wanted to like show up to work and put a good face on and pretend that it wasn't happening. - Yeah. - That was a little bit difficult because at the time like Paparazzi's were chasing me in the East Village where I was working. And I was just like, wow, this is just so far from what I thought in my life would be. Just was, yeah, just trying to make sense of things. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And at that point as well, were you talking to your mom again? - I was, but the communication was still quite limited. Like we were still having a hard time. She was really trying to reach me and I was still just sort of like had my distance up because I just wasn't ready to let her love in. I was still just so confused. - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So you got your job and I know that must've been so difficult. How did you, was it difficult to find work from to get back into? - I don't even get enough apartment. - Yeah, 'cause people would Google me and they'd be like, oh, brand of sex, I have pass. - Yeah, 'cause there's all these articles popping up now. - It was like, oh my god, how would we need to do this? Yeah, it was a real mess. - Yeah, and the branded sex, like that but that's because it did happen, that was a whole other part. - Yeah, and then I was like, wait, let me explain. And then I was like, wait, yeah, I don't think I can explain. Like I just wasn't at that stage. I was just feeling so defeated thinking like, is this gonna be my hurdle for the rest of my life? Like I'm always gonna be seen this way or rejected like this and that's when I met Patrick and at that time of my life and I remember telling him, I talk about this in my book too, that he literally met me. I got the worst, like this is literally the worst. - Yeah. - Time of my life and this is when we're meeting and I was with caution telling him like, are you sure you want like this? - Yeah. - Are you sure you want this? Do you see what's going on here? You want this? - Yeah. - And I just couldn't believe him. I was like, there's gotta be something wrong with this guy. - Right. - That he thinks that I'm worth it. And he just kept showing up and like, being the friend that I needed. And I was so, I had like human repellent on me, like thinking everyone was out to, you know, pull one on me, get, you know, get some information out of me or hurt me or, I just was so on guard. But he slowly started to break my walls down. He's quite persistent. And good. - Yeah, a good, good Philly boy. And just kind of like show me that he didn't judge me in the way that I just was expecting to be judged. And he'd say things like, you know, a lot of people make mistakes. Like a lot of people do stupid things when they're young, when they're being influenced. And he would make light of it in a way that wasn't quite ready to make light of it yet. But I think it was the entry to the possibility that this could be just one chapter of my life and not my entire life. - Yeah, that's good. He was projecting your trauma back onto you. - No, he was just like, let's look over here. - Or like, yeah, let's enjoy it. Let's go have an adventure. And I was just so riddled with like, [BLANK_AUDIO] and shame and confusion and paranoia and worry that I just couldn't relax and I remember one of our first little trips that we did out of the city together like when we had some time off from work he took me to Connecticut and I just remember weighing on the couch of his parents house having a full-on panic attack and he was like are you okay and I was like no like I'm literally having a panic attack he's like but we're just relaxing I was like yeah that's it I was like I just couldn't I just didn't know how yet like my body and my mind and just everything that I was dealing with was not allowing me to rest yet I was still in like I got to survive I got to make it got to make sure that they understand me I got to make sure that I say every truth to the FBI like all this just pressure yeah that I wasn't wasn't quite there yet and he said if there's one thing that is my mission with you it's gonna be teaching you how to chill I was just like I was like good luck yeah yeah like being yourself yeah me bitch he was like he's just poking the bricks out of your wall yeah that's good so he like he really he he saw a future and like a potential before I could that's so wonderful in this all happened or a lot of it happened because your mom couldn't reach you and she was like all right I'm talking to the press I'm talking to the I'm doing a full press tour to get to you and how how do I I'm assuming at the time you were probably not loving it no but in hindsight now that your mom and everything how did how do you look back at that I would have probably done the same yeah like if I had the resources that my mom has and the platform that she has and like the ability to get a message out which she did no yeah I would have done the same if I I would have done anything honestly like I think that's the real truth is at the time I thought she was destroying my life when really she was actually trying to save it and trying to make sure that I saw what was going on enough to be able to make the right choices like to become cooperative with the FBI to do all the things that I needed to do because I was a victim and I couldn't see it and I literally just like thought that these people were you know my new family yeah I think that's like red flag if there's I understand having chosen family and that there's many people who do not have immediate family that they feel like safe or comfortable or even have access to which many people that don't and you do need to have a support system around you but when there's people or group or a situation that's trying to create distance like we've talked about this whole interview that that distance can yeah be a major vulnerability yeah absolutely yeah no it's and then when your mom goes on a press tour and then obviously you have some animosity towards her you get a job in your husband when did you really reconcile with her or come together with her around the same time actually and it you know we we love each other so much that like we wanted to reconcile we were just struggling so hard to communicate and like since then I've had many people reach out to share their stories from the mom's perspective to of people losing their children to institutions or individuals who literally just want to possess you and take your life blood and it's so sad to see the pain that these moms go through and to see the pain that my my own mother went through and to know that sometimes you can't reach somebody until they're willing and open enough to hear it and sometimes I have to say that to people and I think I know that that's might not be what you want to hear because you want to like oh tell me the the cheat sheet or give me the tip and I can say oh well remind them of their old life or you know try a different way to communicate to them that you know initiates some kind of critical thinking but but sometimes people are so under the influence like myself they're unreachable until there's some space and it's like it's honestly just like one of the saddest parts you're like watching that happen but then on the flip side we've got that tragedy and then the redemption piece of there's times where people actually do come out of it and do see the writing on the wall and it is because of the love that they have for that person or their or their family or that form our life or the passions that they had before it's like it happens too so like you get both but like yeah it's really hard yeah yeah yeah. Strangement is really hard yeah it takes time it doesn't all it it feels awkward honestly and I think like that's where your question is going is like what was it like to reconcile very awkward yes because on one on one side my mom's looking at me like this is my baby daughter but then on the other side she didn't know who I was really for the past couple of years because I had been changed yeah and I didn't know who I was so we were kind of like meeting as. Reintroducing yourself. Yeah to somebody who has known me like conception yeah it's like why does this feel so far like why do I feel like honestly this isn't like the saddest part for me and where I'm not triggered exactly but where I just still feel like so much emotion is just like how far my heart like got from my mom like sucks and I didn't feel the same love anymore and like I felt uncomfortable and unsafe around my mom because people were telling me that she was against me that she was trying to hurt me that you're trying to ruin their lives and I believed that yeah and I didn't believe my own mother like wow I mean that to me I'm still I'm not over it not over it because I now have my own daughter and I'm thinking like I just would never just can't let that tether get severed by anybody like you fuck you got to fight for it if if somebody has come in and tried to put a wedge between you and your primary relationships that can happen so yeah it takes a lot of work yeah absolutely rebuilding like we're in a plate we're in a great place now but it's taken a lot of rebuilding because I hurt her and like she she's she loves me and I love her yeah but it's not like you know we just jumped into each other's arms and everything was back to normal again it was sort of like oh my god I've been in another planet and I just came back into your orbit and I feel very off kilter yeah so it was sort of like we had to re-orient ourselves to each other mm-hmm which took a lot of like me telling her things that was very uncomfortable yeah absolutely and sometimes I'm like even with my my poetry book I was like mom like you don't have to read it like I promise I still feel your love in support like yeah it's very raw and she's like actually I can't there it's like it's too hard for me to read like you're suffering in your process and I was like I get it like please don't trigger yourself no it's not that's not my intention so it's sort of like she lets me be me she's I see her as living her best life she's got love in her life like I'm so happy for her mm-hmm I don't worry about her being alone good it's just like it's been the relationship that I've fought the most for and yeah obviously for good reason yes yes she clearly cares about you yeah more than anything yeah so wonderful to see and it's just so that's why I feel lucky yeah yeah absolutely even though at the time I felt like oh my god are you trying to really yeah but you're everything that they told me you were yeah yeah yeah that's obviously not the case and yeah she was on the outside looking in and I mean obviously she heard these horrific things on a surface level but didn't really know all the nitty gritty that actually took to get you there so I can't even imagine being like okay well here's step one mom yeah here's what happened here and here so that's and she was very understanding but it's still like, obviously it's gonna gutter. - Yes. - You're a baby girl. - Yeah, I'm a baby girl. - Yeah. - So it's like certain things you're like, ugh, I don't really wanna share that with you. Maybe I'll keep that one for myself. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's so similar to, almost like addiction where you see someone in your family that's just so lost in the sauce in whatever it is. - I have seen myself get lost in certain substances, but mostly people on this sweet like, that's kind of where my addiction is. And so it will be like, you know, you're dealing with some sort of stress and you think, oh, that's the thing that I need. And then you go to it and it sort of gives you a temporary relief, but then you're sort of back to square one because you haven't really dealt with the feeling that's driving you there. - Yeah. - So that to me is like the confusing part of addiction is just like getting stuck in that loop. And not just not having enough like emotional fortitude to just sort of sit with it for a little bit and be like, is there something else that I could choose here? - Yeah. - Instead of just going back to my loop. And that's hard. - It is. - It's hard, especially when you're in pain. - Yes, you really need to get to a place where you wanna help yourself. - Yeah. - And that's basically the only way you can get out of it. You can have a support system that definitely helps. - Whether it's like punching something, painting it. - Uh-huh. Writing it. - Yeah, poetry. - Eating it, like comfort food helps. Watching a cartoon, listening to music from me, I have to listen to music like every day. - Yeah. - So it's good. - Yeah. So like you gotta find your own cocktail. - Yeah, yeah. For you, I mean, from what I've heard about your story, so many things were taken away from you, were restricted from you. So how was that, like just being comfortable with all of that? - Oh, awkward, that's yeah. Yeah, that's awkward. I think, yeah, I say it was like a cult-induced eating disorder. - Yeah. - I think I had probably the hardest time, like getting back to enjoying food. Like obviously, hard time was sex. But like getting back to food and just how I felt in my body, because all of that was so confusing and so wrapped up was control. So like the flip side of it would be like no control. Like totally, you know, eating everything that you want all the time, and that can be really fun, but also can kind of like be harmful too. So I've been trying to find that balance, and I really feel like I have a good sense of like, my hunger cues are back, like after you're in starvation mode for a long time, whether you're dealing with anorexia or any other kind of eating disorders, you don't really have the same hunger cues anymore 'cause you should just shut them down. So then it's remembering, oh, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty. You know, I, maybe I should take a break and see if I do feel full. Like all those things are just something that you have to deal with on your own. You actually can't outsource them. - Yes. - If you do, you're sort of falling into a similar kind of control setup, and that can be really tricky. 'Cause then you're like, oh, this other person, this nutritionist or this app or this, that is telling me what I need when I need it. That doesn't work for me. - No. - I have to know myself. - Yeah. - Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. - Like, wholeheartedly. - Even if you think that my eating habits are weird, they're mine, so like, go fuck yourself. - Exactly, exactly, and I'm coming up with that. - Yeah. - I mean, like, sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but I feel pretty healthy. - Yeah. - Yeah, when you're in that, that's a whole other thing with, I mean, obviously controlled your intake and food and all that kind of stuff. - Yeah, judging you all the time for like, what you're eating, I just don't do that. Like, I don't care what you eat, how you dress, who you sleep with, like, who you love. Like, I just don't care. I want that person to be happy and healthy and safe and it's their life. Like, it's why would I just sit around judging you unless I was super bored? - Yeah. - So, like, that's how I live my life. That's how I, like, what, I want other people to feel that free too. - Mm-hmm. - That's good. - Yeah. - I mean, it's so hard to come out of that. - Part of it was OCD, because in a way, that's kind of like how I can, that was my one area of perceived control. - Yes. - Even though it was still controlled. But, like, once I got out, there's no one controlling me anymore, but I'm still acting out the behaviors. - Yes. - So, that just takes slowing down, and I think it is kind of a lifelong thing for me at least because my eating disorder habits come out when I'm stressed. - Yes. - So, to me, that's kind of like PTSD, or complex PTSD, like, whatever you want to call it. So, I just recognize and I anticipate it with certain circumstances, like, when I'm traveling, or when I have to make myself eat, even if I'm not hungry. So, it's like, those are things that I just see as recovery and also just, like, self-care. - It is. - And sometimes, it gets exacerbated with hormones, like, I'll get, like, super, super hungry right before my period. I'll just be, like, ravenous, and then I see myself sort of going into that old, little, devilish voice, which is like the makeup. - Oh, you're just so, like, you can even pull your pants up or all this, and then I'm like, all right. Do you need to just, like, shut up respectfully? - Yes. - Because that's just true. - Yeah, this is, like, really, this isn't true. - Yeah. - And it's, like, that repeated on repeat, it's just a congenial stuff. - It changes, because it's something you have to do every day to live. - Yeah, exactly. - So it's not something, like-- - You're going to interface with it. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks. - Exactly. So, I'm like, holidays, slash weddings, slash things, just going out to dinner with friends. Just, just, yeah. - It used to be agony for me when I'd go out to dinner with friends because I'd have to look at the menu beforehand, take what I was allowed to eat, and then be, like, really sad that I wasn't allowed to eat any of those things. And then I thought, this is not how I want to live anymore. I have, first of all, a chef, husband, who is absolutely amazing at cooking, a foodie. Literally, we'll travel for food, like, to Europe. - Yeah. - To finally, you want to eat. So it's, like, it's a big part of my life. And I realize, like, it brings me a lot of joy. - Yeah. - So that is something also worth fighting for. And, oh, I really, like, when I see people, and I don't like to, like I said, I don't like to judge a book by its cover. But when I see somebody visibly struggling with an eating disorder, it, like, hurts me inside. - Me too. And I'm just like, oh, I just want to, like, let me hug you, but then I'm like, you won't really like that. - No, I know. It's like, yeah, just when you're in a, you're just like, everyone's trying to make me fail. It's like, this is my control. But I can't even imagine how amplified that was in that, in that circumstance, and then coming out of it and trying to relearn, to take control, and let go of that control, and all that. So it's, I'm glad that you're, you've reclaimed that, but I, it's not. - No, I painted on my wall in a moment, probably of, like, some kind of, like, manic, creative episode. I was like, I need to paint on my wall. (laughing) Over my bad, I put it in a text bubble, don't overthink it. And on the other side, I put the world as your oyster. And my husband was like, why did you do that? - To that love time. - To paint on the walls. And I was like, I just had to. - Yeah. - I had to. It was like, they're my walls. I can paint on them. He's like, all right, well, if we get a wrench in here, I'll just paint over that. - Yeah. (laughing) - I'll just let you be your crazy you. - That's good. - But those are my morning reminders, because it's just kind of like, I have a tendency to, (humming) and then forget that I don't have to do that all the time. - I can actually just like, live my life. - Yeah, like go to the rains a little bit. I know I gotta tattoo to my wrist. - Yeah, what do you do, guys? - It says let your hair hang down, let your mind roll on. Your lyrics to a song that my grandpa used to listen to, but that's what it means. It just seems like, just live a little. - It's not that serious. And of course, they're serious things in life. But it's just like, life is moving forward. I need to move forward. You have a daughter now, and I'm sure that has a big impact on all of the recovery and the reclamation and all of that. - So it puts a lot of things in perspective, and also this brings me into the moment. - Yeah. - 'Cause she's just in the moment. - Yeah, she took a little kit. - Yeah, I know it's cool. - She's like doing a somersault off the couch. I'm thinking, oh my God, I just had to keep you safe in the line with you all of you. - Yeah, absolutely. That's good. - It's good. It's a happy ending. - It is. - Yeah, no, I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad you have outlets and resources, and you are a resource for so many people, which is so wonderful. I'd love for you to share all the things that you have out and that you're working on, and. - This is my newest book, it's Poetry. It's very raw, like I said to my mother, she didn't have to read it. But if you enjoy Poetry, and you just kind of wanna poke around, let me know what you think. It's been one of my favorite creative outlets, and then this is still learning my first book, which is really more of like a chapter by chapter recount, starting at the trial and then going back. It's just really, this was more about me processing what happened, metabolizing it. I also read the audiobook, which was huge for me to hear the story back in my own voice because I was just trying to hear my own voice, which felt this big. And then this is really just more about processing the messy internal part of recovery that maybe we don't always talk about, which is once you leave, it's not all sunshine and roses, but it can get there. I really think that I have a great life now. And there are moments where I thought that I just wouldn't make it here. That's that, yeah, thank you, it's a flowerpot, I was like, can interpret that as you wish. But yeah, I'll sign them for you. I'm absolutely pleased to do. Yeah, and I'll make sure that people will be able to get it. I'm also on Instagram, so it's @IndiaOxenberg. I'm really quite good with responding to direct messages, not always so great at using social media, but I am still learning to do my best there. And, otherwise, yeah, those are probably the places that you can find me. You can watch seduced on stars or on Amazon Prime. And it's a four-part docky series, which kind of shows you the internal process of how indoctrination works and really goes through a lot of the red flags and how Nexium presented itself versus what it actually really ended up being. Yeah, I thought it was extremely informative. Thank you. That's what I wanted. I was like, I'm not doing this unless it's educational. No, and it was. I'm like a PBS girl. It was, yeah, no, it's me too. No, I was actually, because you watch so many of these things on Netflix or whatever, it's just like, drop my, drop my, drop my, drop my, and it's, but it was like, you got a little bit and then it was like, you have professionals talking about it and the mindset and the process and it was, it was wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really proud of it. I want to take it on the educational circuit at some point and like, share it at universities. I'm working on potentially like consolidating it to 190 minute so that it can be featured in schools and then I can do some Q and A's because I just think like that's such a vulnerable time in your life when you're a young adult trying to find yourself and maybe the first time you've been away from home, so I hope to be able to reach that demographic. But nowadays, I'm just, I'm a mother, I'm a wife and I'm doing my own production development and I work with different independent producers and I still working in the documentary sphere but also some podcast development and, yeah, do you have, do you have your own? I do, I do, that was like kind of a little test offshoot of this book, but I'm working on some other things. Okay, that's exciting. So people will be able to see it on your Instagram probably, yes, okay, we'll go and go follow her. Firebooks and all that stuff. Thank you. But thank you so much for coming on, I really appreciate it and you're just so wonderful. Yeah, of course. [Music] [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]