EP #124: Exploring The Future of Mental Health Campaigns & The 2023 Creators Summit with Amanda Yarnell, Senior Director of Center for Health Communication at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

(gentle music) Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorfins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness and daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stephanopoulos, and this week I am so excited to have a very special guest on the show, Amanda Yarnal, who's the Senior Director of the Center for Health Communication at Harvard, TH Chan School of Public Health. She's also an instructor in the Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Harvard, and I actually got to meet Amanda about six months ago in New York City where she was speaking on a panel for an event on World Mental Health Day, organized by Project Healthy Mines, which is an incredible mental health nonprofit. And the panel that she was speaking on explored the findings from a summit she launched called the Creator Summit on Mental Health, where participating creators, social media creators, TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, engaged with experts and clinicians at Harvard to talk about cutting edge research, emerging policy prescriptions, and critical new resources in mental health. In other words, the panel was really focused on exploring and understanding the importance of mental health literacy and providing that to creators on social media who are in a way becoming public health leaders through the platforms that they have. Amanda has such a fascinating background as a science journalist prior to joining Harvard, Chan. She was a newsroom leader at the Chemical and Engineering News, a award-winning nonprofit science news outlet published by the American Chemical Society. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Chemistry from Johns Hopkins, and a Master's of Science in Chemistry from MIT. So if it's not obvious already, Amanda is incredibly well-versed in the field of science and also in the field of journalism. And with all of her expertise, I was personally really fascinated to have Amanda come onto the podcast to share her own career path story, how she sees science and journalism are left in right brain intersect. I also wanted to learn more about the inspiration for the creator summit, how they developed the program, how they developed the research and the insights that came out of the summit program. And we also talked about the importance of building trust around health and science topics in social media. And how Amanda envisions the future of content creation to develop as it pertains to our mental health and our well-being and communicating messages around health and wellness. I'm confident that everyone out there listening can gain something valuable from this episode because we all engage on social media, whether or not we want to. And if you don't have Instagram and if you don't have TikTok, kudos to you because you are probably shielding yourself from a lot of the negative effects that come from being on social media. However, if you are an avid scroller, like myself, unfortunately, or you follow certain content creators and you stay up to date with the types of media you're consuming online, I think this messaging is so important because there is opportunity to really provide knowledge in the right skill sets and tools to people who are creating content in the media space to better communicate messages, share resources on mental health. So in other words, allowing these creators to use technology and their tools for good. I hope you all enjoy this episode, but before we dive into the interview, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. You can follow us on Instagram at Everyday Endorphins for updates on episodes, live podcast events, wellness activations in New York City with the Everyday Endorphins community. And you can also follow on TikTok for some more of my stream of consciousness. (upbeat music) - Hi Amanda, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It's so nice to see you today. - Same style, it's great to see you. - For those who are listening, Amanda and I actually first met about almost, yeah, a little over two months ago, I'm during the World Mental Health Day Summit and Hudson Yards with Project Healthy Minds, shout out to that organization, incredible work that they're doing. And I got to hear you speak on a panel about all the really fantastic work that's being done at the Center for Health Communication and the panel initially drew my eye 'cause it was about social media and the ways in which creators communicate about topics related to mental health and wellbeing. So, you know, as one can imagine, my ears perked up and I was like, I need to go listen and it was just fantastic. So really, really thrilled to have you here today on the show and I wanna start off by talking a little bit more about your own background and I know that you have a career in news and journalism and now public health at Harvard. So, I would love for you to share a little bit more about your own career path and how you eventually became involved with the Center for Health Communication. - Yeah, so I'm a scientist by training. And then as you mentioned, I spent two decades working in journalism as a science reporter, as an editor and eventually as a newsroom leader. In that role, I used to run editorial teams, product teams, but also an audience team. So, you know, really thinking carefully about who is reading us and all the other folks that are talking about the same things we are and how to interact with them. - It's so fascinating coming also from a news background as well but also a science background too. When I was younger, I thought I wanted to be a doctor first and foremost. I was so interested in medicine. And then I also had this passion for journalism and writing and that more like creative rights brain side. And so I thought, you know, maybe science journalism is the way forward and that never really actualized in my career, maybe the podcast is a form of that 'cause it blends all of these topics together. But I think it's actually really fascinating and really important, more so, to have that science background if you're going into the field of journalism and communication because of now sitting in this climate of just mental health issues rising, especially among the younger generations. So just curious to hear a bit more about, you know, how your background in science informed the way in which you worked as a journalist and now through the work that you're doing at Harvard. - Yeah, it absolutely did. I mean, I think I sometimes teach around science and health scientists can interact with journalists here at Harvard. And one of the things I talk about is, yeah, there's actually a tremendous amount of similarities between how we think, I think, right? Like both scientists and journalists, they're really interested in finding the truth. They are really interested in understanding problems and communities and looking for solutions. You know, and they have, you know, I think the best scientists and the best journalists, they really care about their audience and doing something that's going to benefit the community around them. So for me, it was really important and it really has shaped not only my scientific training shape, not only my career as a journalist, but absolutely my career here at Harvard. So I landed here a little more than a year and a half ago and I was recruited to reboot the Center for Health Communication here at Harvard Chan. I had been around for a 35 years and had a really storied history doing mass media campaigns that really changed the health of our nation here in the United States in particular. But it had been 35 years and they were looking for new leadership. Our former director had was moving on and they wanted someone to come in and think about what that center would look like in 2022, I think at the time, 2023. And so, yeah, so I came on and had thought carefully about, in the past, those mass media campaigns that the center had done, they really thought about all the channels we were watching, the things we were watching together, the TV that we were watching together, the news programs that we were watching together, all the things that we were consuming collectively and thinking about how to inject public health messaging into that and content into that programming. Thinking about what that would look like in 2023, it was obvious to me that it had to look beyond TV shows and even Hollywood and really thinking about, or even the news and really thinking about creators. You know, they're watched and trusted by millions. We're looking to them for information, all kinds of information, right? Including health information and increasingly, mental health information. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like the rise of creators, influencers, micro-influencers, whatever terminology you want to use, it kind of happened overnight. Maybe it was actually the onset of COVID where this really blew up. And I think honestly, even TikTok was that platform, that transformed the way in which we think about creators. I actually started every day in Dorfens 10 years ago in 2013. I guess by the time this episode's released, it'll be almost 11 years ago. And at the time, it was like this food and fitness blog. And there were a few health accounts that existed, but I don't think anyone at the time would have called themselves a creator. It was more just like a blogger. So it's been interesting to see the evolution of that. But why do you think influencers, creators, have been given so much attention in the media? Like how, in your eyes and your perspective, how did that just happen seemingly overnight? Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. I mean, I think COVID is a big issue in the sense that I think we were all looking for connection and to see our experiences reflected. And I think that allowed another thing that's really changed is I think this idea, you know, I grew up in that sort of blogging culture too, right? I certainly think a lot of creators now, if they were around then, they would've been blogging and the ones who were around then were blogging, right? So I do think that that has been a natural evolution, but platforms like TikTok, for example, have really helped discoverability, right? I think it's not so much like you have to know a person has to find you the platform, you know, I think the discoverability, the algorithm that they have created is sort of a delight in, well, it can be a delight in discoverability. It has made things easier to find. So I think that's one thing has changed. I think COVID, you know, people were looking for something. And then I think the third thing that I would say has changed is a sort of understanding of like, a rawness and I think what creators today are really understanding is that that authenticity is how we're going to connect. And I think that is really connected to our COVID experience, for example. - Yeah, like that desire to also see yourself reflected in a creator helps foster a sense of closeness and connectedness. And you're right, COVID really shook things up. And I think also sparked this understanding of just immense loneliness that a lot of people were feeling as well. And then having a platform like social media where you could actually talk about it. And I don't wanna say destigmatize, but yeah. - Well, you can share that, right? You understand that other people are experiencing it too, right? I think that really, like, I don't know whether any of those three things would have cut through all by itself, but I think together it's really important. I mean, when you think about it in the past, so much of our media gatekeepers have looked like, you know, only a certain segment of the population. And I think what's really sort of amazing and beautiful about the creator economy is that there are now so many voices available, right? And so many voices surfaced. And I think that is exactly what we needed in a time like COVID, and I think it's exactly what we need in the future. - Even just seeing the evolution of how we consume our news and information, coupled with the rise of creators and social media, this honestly, probably will not surprise you, but I mostly consume my information through Instagram and through TikTok. - You're not alone, right? I think for a lot of young people, TikTok and Instagram are increasingly a search engine. You know, a first step for news and information, but it's not just young people. There's a, I saw some Pew data out this year suggesting that more than half of US adults get news at least sometimes from sites like those. There's this irony and paradox even that exists because we're glued to our phones. That's we're receiving a lot of our information. Yet being on social media deeply impacts our mental wellbeing. I see it myself, honestly. You know, I have this urge to reach for my phone to look at something just to hold it. It's like this compulsive behavior that I have because I've become so addicted to this device and to social media, but at the same time, it's what I use to also inform and educate myself to a certain extent. And then even having the podcast, sure the content here exists over just having conversation and building community in this way. But in a way, I also need this Instagram profile for the show to promote the conversations that are being had and make sure it's even more widespread. So there's this paradox that exists where, you know, we're so deeply tied to our phones and it benefits us in so many ways. And there's that sense of, you know, when you're falling creators, maybe you feel closer to them or you feel a sense of connectedness, but there's also this deep isolation, loneliness and detriment to our wellbeing. Can you talk a little bit more about this paradox and how you see media impact our wellbeing? Yeah, I mean, I think media has always impacted our wellbeing, right? Like all kinds of media, whether it was like the beginning of radio, the beginning of television, right? Technology has never been this like, oh, it's wonderful or oh, it's absolutely terrible, right? Like these kinds of technology advancements and how we consume media have always been really, you know, fraught, right? Full of a lot of good and also coming with some bad as well, right? I personally experienced this after working in journalism for a really long time, just like you are a stellar, like it, it really mattered you had to have, you had to have a presence on social media as part of your business. But I haven't had, for example, Instagram installed in my phone for five or six years. (laughs) I purposely make it less enjoyable for myself by using it only in browser, you know, in part because I think what is almost required of us as individuals these days is that we all have to sort of like build our own amount of self-awareness and our own amount of self-control in the absence of other things. And I think that there are lots of, that's not a solution, that's a long term, I think we need as a society to think about, you know, those are smart individual moves to like set some boundaries and create some friction of our own that lets you get some of the good, right? The connectedness, the ideas, the inspiration, right? The information that you want that's easy to get, right? All of those things, but also send up some friction that helps you with some of the other things, which, you know, I think can be really hard to tolerate, right? And I mean, there's small choices you can make also. Absolutely, you have some control over it, but you know, I also think like that shouldn't stop, recognize that we all have choices that we could make to do that I think shouldn't stop us from also asking ourselves collectively what we want, right? Yeah, so I hopefully, you know, in my mind, we need to do both of those things, right? How would you envision that to look like actually, like in addition to having maybe your own personal boundaries or creating that awareness for yourself on re-engaging with social media in a more healthy way? You know, how would you envision like collectively, we all hold each other accountable or on a larger scale? Like maybe this brings in policies that are helping to shape the way that we engage with our social media. You know, how do you see it on a broader scale? Policy changes are gonna have to come. I think it's just a question of do we have the right people in the rooms to make the decisions, right? And one of the things that we've really hoped for through this program at Harvard was to do a better job bringing creators, mental health creators, in particular who I think have this sort of very interesting, you know, they're not just creators, but they are also working in the mental health space where so many of these questions that we're talking about sit and thinking about how do we bring creators, mental health creators into those conversations with, you know, mental health experts, technology experts, regulatory experts, legal experts who are already talking about what kinds of policy changes might work. I think that's an important and exciting area in my mind, like, you know, by helping creators in the ways that we have here at Harvard, we would also connect those creators both with each other to help their audiences. And, you know, with the wider community, they're gonna be making decisions about policies and how we want these environments to be for each other. This is a great segue into speaking more about the creator summit. So this was a big topic of conversation during the panel for World Mental Health Day. And it's really fascinating summit that you all put together because it seems like this very symbiotic relationship between the researchers at Harvard and the resources at Harvard and then also the creators coming into this program where there's this like symbiotic learning experience between the two. So I would love for you to talk a little bit more about, I think you touched on this earlier, really kind of like the inspiration behind the summit, but diving a bit deeper into how these, how Harvard and the creators were able to come together to help people better engage with social media or receive information about mental wellness through these platforms in a more conducive way. - Yeah, and I think we have lots of work to do, but I'm happy to talk about where we started and what was the inspiration. So as we talked about before, right? So so many people are looking for information on these kinds of platforms. It's totally true of health information, maybe particularly about mental health information since so many of these platforms became, as we discussed, a place that we were looking for support around mental health during COVID, right? And I think that just hasn't changed. On TikTok alone, I looked at these numbers recently, they're already well over a billion, a hundred billion views of videos tagged with the mental health hashtag alone, right? So there's a huge amount of information, but that ecosystem is unfortunately, I think a wash with both deliberate misinformation and anecdotal posts that are not grounded in science, as well as some really great content that we found in like looking for creators for this program. So there's everything there. And unfortunately, I think it's really hard for many of us to distinguish between sound and spurious science, right? So we were thinking, you know, how could we make sure that people can find the health information that they need where they're looking for it, right? Like I think sometimes I hear people say, "Oh, you shouldn't look for this information on social media." Unfortunately, like we're all looking for, increasingly we're getting information there. It's where we're at. And so I think we have a responsibility, particularly in public health, right? We have a responsibility to recognize that all of our spaces, you know, we should be thinking about, making sure that people have access to great health information. And so that's going to require partnerships and new kinds of collaborative that haven't existed before. So we, creators, they're watched, trusted by millions, and so we wondered whether could they help play a role in making sure that all people everywhere have that kind of health information that they want and need. Trust in institutions has been in decline, including some that public health is relied on to circulate health information in the past, especially since COVID. And so I think public health institutions Harvard included that are hoping to change views and habits in today's world. They're going to need new kinds of approaches and new coalitions that, like I said, don't exist right now, including those with creators. So that is why that's sort of where we were thinking when we came up with this program. We wanted to build a system that would help support creators who want to spread evidence-based information about mental health. I was a journalist for many years, and I benefited many times as did my teams from all of the effort that science organizations, health organizations, institutions of all kinds, the access that they provide to journalists as being trusted media gatekeepers. And I think it's time we think about how we build those kinds of systems for creators, who are today's media gatekeepers. Yeah, I think there's two parts this as well. When first, it's just hard to figure out where you can access certain mental health resources. Even if you're tapped into the mental health field, it's like, well, where do I even begin? How do I find a therapist? What exists out there? So just having someone or a creator that you can go to, and you know they're able to provide you, at least, point you in the right direction to the right resources, I think is huge because it's easy to feel lost as to where to even begin, right? And then secondly, a lot of from my own experience, what I've seen on social media with a lot of creators is them sharing their own advice and like their own lived experience. And I think that those pieces of content are actually really helpful because it feels really relatable. It feels like you're just listening to your best friend on the phone or an older sister telling you, this is what I learned in my 20s, for example, right? But a lot of this is very subjective. And so sometimes it feels like, how do I know that this is the right advice to follow? And so what's been really helpful for me is following content where it's lived experience coupled with neuroscience and like science-backed research and findings that help to explain maybe this is why you think the way that you do or this is why you're behaving in this way. And so what I try to do is follow the people online that have that blend of the personal but also the science and academic findings to support it. Because I know also with a science background in my undergraduate studies, I feel more in control of my own well-being when I can actually understand from a neuroscience perspective and from like the most fundamental building blocks, why it is the way that these things are for me in particular. And so I think there's definitely a need for that as well. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think those are the kinds of creators that we were hoping to engage and empower and connect with each other so that they can also lift each other up in these kinds of crowded noisy spaces as well. Yeah, I saw on the website, there was just like an immense list of creators and I'm just would love to hear more how you were able to kind of select who to involve in the summit and what that looked like. Yeah, so I mean, we didn't pick a random group of people to engage but we also I think really importantly, since we're scientists, myself included, we really approached this as an experiment, right? Really wanted to think, to roll out a program that we thought would help creators, right? And help us in the process and we can talk a little bit more about that I think later in the call, but really know whether we're doing good, right? Know whether it's having the effect that we want it. So that's really I think an integral part of what we did. So our students and faculty here, mental health students and faculty here, identified a total of 105 or so creators who are talking about mental health on TikTok in particular. We were looking for people who were producing across platforms but because TikTok is such a great discovery engine and because it's such a huge source of mental health information for so many people right now and just because of the popularity, the topic on the platform, we were looking for creators who were certainly that was one of the channels that they were working on. We took a group of those 105 folks and put them aside and never contacted them again and used that as a control group. And then we invited the remaining 70 or so to apply for a slot in the summit to spend some time virtually with us in April and our faculty in a series of virtual conversations around mental health and mental health policy. 42 of them said yes and we randomly selected 25 to join us in April to discuss mental health research and policy prescriptions and also how to actually share evidence based information on mental health, some research from health communication research. Those 25 folks received toolkits that summarize some of the themes and evidence that we discussed and then the other 17 creators who applied, we sent them only those toolkits and then compared the content those groups of creators made before and after the summit. So that's how we went about it. But the group of people that we were really interested in interacting with, we wanted to talk to people who were creators who were doing this in very different ways, not all the same, right? So we had around half of the creators on our list of 105 that we started with were mental health providers who had come to TikTok to have a bigger impact than they could merely by seeing patients. And then around half of the folks came purely from lived experience to share the experience that they had had with other people in an effort to really help reduce stigma about seeking care and things like that. And I think importantly and interestingly and perhaps not surprisingly, there's a lot of overlap between those two groups, right? A lot of the providers do have lived experience as well, the ones who are who have been quite successful in this platform. So we were interested in engaging both kinds. We weren't sure who might find this kind of program most valuable, who would be most interested or get the most out of it. We were looking for folks and I think this has a lot to do with what TikTok is and some of the benefits and not just TikTok, I think this is true in YouTube and Instagram too, where there are voices that often in sort of general society get marginalized and there's a way to cut through there, right? To find audiences, folks that you can see their experience in yours, right? And so really reaching some audiences that public health has failed to reach in the past, creators of color, who identified as creators of color, folks who identified as LGBTQ, for example, and other marginalized populations. We were really interested in overpopulating this group of 105 with folks like that in an effort because we also wanted to learn from them, right? How they were really doing such a great job, connecting and building community and trust with folks. And we purposely pushed aside folks who are deliberately, we saw sharing misinformation, right? So true, intentionally, sort of what I would say, maybe a bad actor, that's perhaps a strong word, but we're looking for folks who really, I think, trying to do great work in this space, but doing it in very different ways that we would, for example, and that each other were doing it. And I think, sort of, we took a big tent approach while I think not trying to engage folks who are, you know, perhaps signaling that, signaling overtly or less so that like TikTok is therapy, for example, right? So we're looking for folks who understood what sort of the limits were really trying to do the best work possible. - Yeah, how did you see if you saw at all the content differ between the people that were actually participating in the summit and it involved in the virtual conversations and dialogue with that toolkit versus those who just received the toolkit and weren't actually present during the experience? - Well, very interestingly, we saw that the toolkit, getting the toolkit was the real value, right? Like, which says to me that there's a hunger for good information that a creator, you know, packaged in a way that's helpful to a creator, which a lot of good scientific information is not. (laughs) It's written for scientists and not for others who are perhaps outside that expert circle, right? And so, yeah, that was a surprise to us. I mean, I had obviously like built this experiment to sort of test that, but I was thinking it would be an additive thing. And I think for us, it was really like fascinating and kind of exciting thing because it suggests that something like this could scale, right? That you could, you know, these are really simple toolkit, relatively simple toolkits to put together and that we could reach a lot more creators and have a much bigger impact than I think we thought originally could be possible. So yeah, it's really with toolkits. Now that's not to say, I think we've built There are lots of other things that come in. and contact with each other has brought. So I think event, I've run a media operation before as you do. And so I'm sure you're aware, right? You have to feed the beast, right? Like there's always this need for content if you're going to be a successful creator, right? It is what's required, which are audience expects of you, what the platform requires of you, all of those things. And so particularly with creators who are well-intentioned, really are mission driven to provide a service to those seeking mental health information. That's a lot. That's a lot. And so if we could do something that's helpful to ease their research, to make it easier for them to share information, even on a subject that they maybe that's sort of next door to their expertise, if you will, I think that's where I see that program being potentially really useful to creators and where we could be helpful. Yeah, absolutely. There's a really great point that you mentioned around making science terminology, research, actually digestible. And it's interesting because you kind of walk in the middle of those two worlds as a scientist and a journalist. You can see both perspectives. But I think it more so really clarifies the importance of translating that language into something that most people can understand. It's kind of like asking the so what? Sure, you can just throw a bunch of research and findings and papers to people, how meditation impacts maybe like the gray matter in your brain or other neurological conditions or just your general health and well-being at large. But to actually digest that and understand the so what, how does that show up in my life? What steps can I take? If there's not that connection, I don't think people feel empowered to actually make those changes. Yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, I think there's two issues here, right? Like I think it's a scientific literature where we store information expertise, right? It was built to share it with other scientists, right? It's made for that. That is how the product is designed. It's not made for somebody outside of science to walk in and say, oh, this is what this means. And this is how it fits into the larger context, right? Because so much of science builds on other things. It's not a single paper. Reading a single paper is the key. It's reading a series of papers and analyzing how they fit together. And so I think that's one part of it, right? That that part of science is locked up. I actually think creators do in a mate-- like there are so many creators who understand how to make complexity interesting, right? I mean, they're really good at-- we don't need to teach-- we actually need to learn from them how to do that. I actually think-- oh, and I think of some of the creators that we've worked with. And I think about how they're using skits and role playing and music and all kinds of other things that science does not-- science and scientific organizations-- they do not use that humor, right? All these things. And I think they do an amazing job. But of course, there's some middle stuff there, right? Where you need to get some information out of this very complex, like not built for you system to help-- what is it? What messages are important? What information is important that people need to know. And I think that's the part where we need better systems, that sort of brokering system. To empower folks like in our program to do a better job as being the public health leaders that they already are, I would argue. Yeah. I think creators do a really fantastic job of making these topics actually entertaining. That's a job that scientists don't-- they're not trained to do, and we often don't do it well. Right, exactly. And a lot of the creators perhaps that are also mental health professionals or doctors, physicians, like actually, their career sits in science. But they also have this really creative side of them where they're creating content. That's really like a special blend of the two, because they have that knowledge. And then they're able to express it and share it in a way that will hit most people. And so maybe the goal moving forward is, well, how do you get other creators who maybe don't necessarily have that training or background with that same level of research and information? But you leave it to them to repackage it and repurpose it and share it out in a way that is widely applicable to others. I mean, I definitely think one of the things that I see in the future of public health communication is needing to understand that we're going to have to hand over some agency to gatekeepers to be able to share information, right? Empower them, educate them, support them, right? But not control that, right? Like, we're sort of past the point where people are going to listen to a central authority for their information. We're just going to push it out via that one channel, right? The future is distributed and creators are going to be part of that. It's interesting, Stella, one of the things we looked at in the study was whether the toolkits that we provided people were more creators, were more valuable to or more useful, used by creators who had lived experience only versus they were coming to it with a provider background, perhaps also coloring in their lived experiences while in many cases. But we were interested. Would one of those groups find that more valuable? We found that they were both equally. We saw no difference, right? And so anecdotally, I think what you described is exactly true. Some of our folks are coming from lived experience. They want to give good information and the toolkits and supports that we've been offering help them reduce the amount of effort that they have to put into their fact checking and research and allows them to create, which is what they do best, instead of spending hours and hours trying to figure out what they should create about. And so I think in that sense, we're helping them. But what we also heard from some of our trained creators, or a trained mental health provider creators, is that they specialize in something. And there are all kinds of other areas that they don't specialize in. And sometimes, there's lived experience that they don't have. But if they want to talk about something broader than what their core area is, this is also helping them in that area. So I think there are ways in which the supports that we're offering are helping both kinds of creators, which is, again, we didn't know what to expect there, but it's been heartening to see. We're now in the future, in 2024, about to embark on some research about how to really sharpen the toolkits that we're providing, like, how should we present them on what topics, how do people expect them to be delivered? Is a toolkit really the right delivery method, or should we be really building some sort of AI-driven assistant of some kind that provides it? I think so thinking through, to me, what we've learned here is that helping summarize research in an area in a way that speaks to what creators need is a thing that public health institutions, health institutions, science institutions can do to improve the information ecosystem on these channels, right? And that is something we should all care about and therefore invest in. And I think in the future, the questions become, you know, how best to do that. Yeah, these are very lofty questions. And, you know, when you say toolkit, what exactly does that mean? Like, what would consist, yeah, of that toolkit? In this, like, pilot version, what the toolkit looked like, what it was inspired by looking at what brands offer creators, right? I mean, in that situation, a brand is asking the creator to make content on their behalf, like, in their voice, but on their behalf. And we weren't interested in that kind of control. But we were thinking that, oh, well, this is a well-oiled machine. Right? And we looked at this and built it in ways that helps creators make content. So we looked at that. We interviewed some creators about how they would, you know, what they would want from something like this. We talked to some folks who were working like influencer marketing firms who worked with creators and were often the brokers of these kinds of brand deals. And that sort of thing. So we looked at sort of what was out there in the more like paid sponsorship area as a model of presentation. And then we thought about from a science journalist perspective, right? Like, what kind of information did we think that creators might be missing, right? Was it a topic that was not talked about enough or at all? And so we did some work around that. So for example, one example there I would give is a lot of mental health creators are not talking about climate. There's some stuff that's happening on the climate side. It largely comes out of climate creators. It doesn't often come out of mental health creators. And increasingly as, you know, the world is changing, you know, and more people are experiencing climate anxiety or the mental health impacts of a changing climate. We want more mental health creators to be able to talk about that. It's interesting. You're seeing that happening more in like, provide mental health provider training is happening more. But of course, you know, that's happening right now. We're hoping to sort of accelerate things. So that's an example of like maybe we were looking for, in some cases, we were looking for areas where we didn't see people talk. There's something that people could be talking about but they're generally not so much, right? And then in other cases, we looked for topics where maybe people are talking about a topic, but there's a dimension that we thought perhaps might be missed, for example. So in that sense, we thought about the mind-body connection, right? Which I think is talked about a lot on social media, for example, but rarely do you see folks getting into the not at all, but not as much do you see people really talking about what do we know about the molecular basis for that, right? It's what's the scientific underpinnings for that. And so that's an example where we thought, okay, there's something we could add to the conversation, right, to an existing conversation. So, right, so that's format we've talked about, and then topics, and then what about the content? We're really looking to think about what would a creator need, right? So certainly some references we provided, but really are focused on what are some key big numbers and statistics in these areas that are vetted, authoritative, right, that sort of scope out the problem or scope out the solution, research trends and emerging ideas, and then really thinking through what specific calls to action you could share. And we weren't interested in being really prescriptive there, but offering up some very specific, if you wanted to send somebody to something more, here's a place, here's another example, that sort of thing. - Yeah, I mean, this thought just popped into my mind. I feel like you can think of these creators in this program kind of as ambassadors of the research that's been conducted. There would be the right way to describe it, but that's kind of just what I thought of initially. - We are definitely thinking about how, and we had a conversation with a number of our creators who ended up joining us later in the year in person, some of the folks who joined us in April for this virtual summit that we hosted them in August. And one of the conversations that I thought was most striking, and I think you saw it at the Project Healthy Minds event as well is that so many of these creators, as a result of this program, are reframing, they're telling us that it's reframed how they think of themselves, right? Is that they actually are public health leaders in the sense that they are communicators, they are connecting much wider audiences with important mental health information. And I think many of them, that's not how they thought about themselves like walking into this, right? They thought of themselves as creators, maybe advocates, right? Mental health advocates, being passionate about reducing stigma and helping people connect to help that they need, right? They were thinking about themselves that way, but they didn't necessarily think about the larger role that they might play as a being a piece of public health. And to me, that's exactly how we would like them to think about themselves. And so I think sort of a side impact of this program, in addition to changing content through these simple supports that I think could be scaled to many creators, I think there's this additional piece whereby helping people in this way, you're helping them connect with this larger purpose and larger role that they might play in public health as a whole. Absolutely. I remember when we first met, I approached you after the panel and I was like such a great conversation. And I think I said, like, I guess I'm a creator, like I host this podcast on mental health. And you really, yeah, like you are. And I never had that self-perception at all. I actively tried to avoid the word influencer because I think there are some people out there that their platform, it's not promoting maybe the things that I find valuable, right? So I've tried to actively kind of avoid that, but as I've just thought more about my own platform and how I want it to grow and how I want it, the messaging to be communicated to other people in a way that is acting like a creator. It's creating things. And it's also, I love that terminology that you use, being like a public health communicator or ambassador because at the end of the day, it's like really bringing to light these messages that are hopefully hitting a larger widespread audience and really impacting their lives in a positive way. And I think there's an element of, when you're able to infuse the personal in it as well and those lived experiences, that builds this basis of trust for your audience to then want to listen to you and actually want to invest in their wellbeing if that's what you're promoting. So I'm not surprised that that was this maybe unintentional, but really impactful for the creators that were involved in the summit because even in the past year, the way I've thought about everyday endorphins and the messaging that I'm promoting and the way that I want to live my life, like I see this very much as an extension of myself and it evolve and grow as my perspectives shape and form over time and throughout my life. So I think it also kind of empowers me which I'm starting to lean into more now, but I love that you share that 'cause it's something that I also kind of see in myself too. - Yeah, I think creators, right? It's like creating something I used to write short stories actually went to college as a double chemistry creative writing major. (laughing) - I was a creative writing minor and I studied like neuroscience and language and I began as a double major and I ended with a chemistry major and a creative writing minor. But I think that one of the things that writing is a form of creating, right? What we're doing right now, this conversation, your podcast is a form of creation, right? Creating is one way that we make sense of the world around us, right? And help other people do the same. It is an amazing service to all of us. And I think the more we can think, yeah, less about folks on social, there are certainly folks who are gonna be on social influencer is maybe the term that we, some people will use because it is they're advocating for, in trying to get you to do specific changes in your life. But I think that like, you know, there are a whole host of us who are interested in being advocates on those platforms, right? Advocating for things that we care about, advocating for the good of our community, of our world. And those I think are, you know, these are public health communication goals. And I really hope full that as we continue this work, that that's where we'll be able to help more creators think about themselves that way and then give them the support that they need to be powerful. More powerful than they already are. (laughing) You want to learn something from them along the way when our group of creators in the pilot were with us in August in person. Some of them taught a class to our students and our faculty about how to build, you know, advocacy platforms on social channels. And others built this really wonderful resource that's now being used around Harvard around how to build trust around health and science topics. So I think there's just so much that we have to learn internally also from them. So, you know, sort of to come back to something we talked to them very beginning in addition to sort of, you know, helping more creators see themselves as public health communicators in these spaces and supporting their work. And doing that, I'm really hoping that we continue to find ways to make it two way and make sure that we're learning what we need to learn from creators. I think, you know, one of the reasons I ended up at Harvard and I decided to take this job was having gone through COVID and felt like, oh, you know, public health, we could have done a better job communicating, you know, the value of what it is to take care of one another. And I felt like, you know, the skills that I had as a scientist, as a science journalist were ones that I could apply to that situation. And so I really, I see this as an extension, right? The creators and our cohort are so good at that too. And I'm really, I'm excited that Harvard has decided to, you know, invest in trying to make sure that they can help tomorrow's public health, you know, leaders in all corners are better communicators. And I think I'm really excited that they're, you know, enthusiastic and excited about making these sort of new kinds of coalitions that might not have happened, you know, prove it. Well, I'm very excited to see all the work that's going to continue to be done and progressed within the Center for Communication at Harvard. And, you know, hopefully there's a part two with this creator summit. - Want to come? (laughing) - And actually one of the creators that was involved with the summit was a guest on the show of Victoria Garrick Brown now, she got married. Yeah, and she has a really fantastic platform from everything that she's done and also through her own lived experience and vulnerability that she shares. So I loved getting to, you know, look on the website and see who you had involved. And even just in this interview, I feel like I learned so much so thank you, Amanda. It's really been such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Before I let you go, there's one question that I ask everyone that comes onto the show. And it's really tied into the theme of everyday endorphins, you know, seeking out those simple joys in life and returning to that, especially when times get a little bit difficult. But with that being said, what I'd love to hear from you. is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? - Dancing. (laughing) I, it's funny whenever I get nervous about something, right, like a, have to give a speech or I had to get in front of a board or something like that, the thing that I would always do is like put in my headphones and hide in my hotel room or in a little space and jam out. (laughing) It's always been dancing. These days I do it a lot with my kids too, yeah. I love that. I mean, dancing is a big endorphin thrill for me. There's this one studio I think they close down, unfortunately, 305 Fitness or anyone else that he's listening. It's a trip, it's really fun. It feels like you're in Miami and you're just having a time, but you're getting in a great workout. So I love to dance too and there's just something very like when you're just like moving to the beat of a rhythm. It's very calming and a great endorphin release as well. So, dance like nobody's watching, right? Exactly, exactly. Amanda, where can my listeners connect with you and stay updated with all the emerging research that's coming out of Harvard and the Center for Communication? Yeah, you can follow us on LinkedIn, Center for Health Communication at Harvard Chan. School of Public Health. All right, thank you so much. Yeah, it's lovely talking to you. (upbeat music) (soft music) Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the Everyday Endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being, and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time. (upbeat music)