EP #122: The Psychology of Game Design and Building a Fitness Entertainment Brand with Andy Hoang and Inessa Karlinsky, Founder and CEO & CMO of Aviron Interactive

(gentle music) Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Dorfins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness and daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stuffinopolis, and this week I am really excited to explore the psychology behind game design and how that relates to the ways in which we find motivation and drive in our fitness routines. So I'm really thrilled to have the founder and CEO of Averon Interactive Andy Huang, and the CMO NSA Carlinski on the podcast this week. Averon Interactive is a rowing machine that utilizes gaming psychology to drive motivation and consistency and is designed to make workouts fun for their users. So I was initially drawn to Averon and this idea of making a rowing machine fun because I spent all four years in high school glued to a rowing machine on a crew team. And I grew to really not love being on a rowing machine. Rowing is one of the hardest sports out there, in my opinion, and it is an incredibly difficult workout. So for four straight years, I was conditioned to actually not really love the rowing machine. And when I found out about Averon and I got to meet Andy and NSA and even try out the product, I started to get really excited because I was like, oh, maybe it's possible to reconnect with the joy in this sport, something that I dedicated so much of my life to at a particular time. And during that time, I grew to really feel anxious on the rowing machine, but getting to try out Averon, I realized how it can actually be really fun to do that kind of workout again. And so in this episode, Andy and NSA talk about their personal backgrounds and fitness, sports, entrepreneurship, why they wanted to build Averon. They also talked a little bit about gamification, how it's becoming a trend in sports and fitness, the future of fitness entertainment, and how they've built this product and specific features of the rowing machine to really have that gamified experience to get people into the sport and to get people to feel a sense of joy from being on the rowing machine. We also talked about how game design more broadly can help us reconnect to the joy and exercise, how to make working out fun again. And Andy and NSA talk about some lessons that they've learned from entrepreneurship, specifically on gaining trust in life and learning how to pivot when things don't go as planned. And of course, Andy and NSA share how they define happiness and what brings them in orphans every day. So excited for you all to listen to this episode. Let's get right into it. But before we dive into this episode, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast where every listen to your shows. Shoot me a message if this interview resonated with you if anything in particular caught your interest. I love to hear from everyone who tunes into the show. So reach out if something really calls to you. Let's get into it. Hi, Andy. Hi, NSA. Thank you so much for coming on to Everyday Endorphins. It's so nice to have you both here. Thanks for having us. We're very excited. Shout out with you. Very excited. And for people who are tuning in right now, Andy and NSA, I met the both of you at the Jack Taylor Wellness Summit, which was such a cool experience to get to engage with all these different wellness brands and companies. And my eye was immediately caught by Avaron because it's this really cool rowing machine. And I'll let the both of you talk a bit more about it. But I started my fitness journey really through the sport of rowing 11 years ago. And I definitely built a love-hate relationship to the sport and actually Everyday Endorphins kind of originated from my love for crew. So initially I was so drawn to Avaron and got to talk to the two of you more about it. And so just excited to have the both of you here. And I know when we got to chat in person, neither of you have a background in crew, which I think is so interesting. So how did Avaron come to fruition without being a former rower? 'Cause it's such a niche sport to build a product around. - Yeah, I think the first thing we'll say is that rowing is an amazing sport or exercise that we both believe more people should do. It's low impact, it's full body, it's a much more efficient workout. But I think that it's just maybe a bit too challenging or too boring for a lot of people. But we still believe that it's something that everyone should do. So I think we've created a product that is meant for everybody and everybody. And that's kind of where I start with that. But to give you the story behind Avaron, I've always been super active, super competitive, play a lot of sports. And when I learned about Peloton back then, I thought it was such an amazing idea. You can work out anytime you want on your own schedule from the comfort of your home. I bought a Peloton, but the experience didn't really resonate with me personally. It wasn't exciting enough for me. I didn't have that high intensity that I was looking for. And that's where the idea of Avaron came from, which is kind of marrying my passions for fitness, my hatred for cardio at the time, and my love for games and bringing it together. 'Cause I just felt that there's so much from gaming that we could take from a motivational standpoint, from an enjoyment standpoint, and apply it to fitness. And we decided to focus on rowing because rowing is such an amazing full body exercise that's globally recognized, but not enough people do. Yeah, and that's kind of where it started. - I think it was interesting because for me, the Peloton at the time was literally too big. I'm only five-one, and it's not actually a comfortable bike for someone who's smaller, and I'm not a gamer, but it was super intriguing to think, okay, lots of people like this class-based modality and way to work out, but there must be people who, if this doesn't resonate with us, it doesn't resonate with other people. Maybe there's a different way to engage at home with fitness. So that was kind of part of that story. - Yeah, it's interesting with Peloton, I think so much of their edge is really the community and the instructors, less so maybe the way that Peloton's gamified besides having badges or completing a certain number of workouts, but the only thing I can really think of is when the feature that they have or you can just bike in a certain scenery, but there's not really games that you're playing, there's not really that gamified feature or functionality, and I love how you applied that with the sport of rowing because from my own personal experience, probably one of the hardest parts about sitting down to Urg was getting bored really easily. You're focused on one number, well, two numbers, like your stroke rate and your split, like how fast you're going. And you normally have to meet certain targets and metrics depending on the workouts that you're doing, but it got to be so agonizing, staring at the same screen the entire time, but I think it builds kind of like a mental toughness. And for that, I'm very grateful, but something that I had challenged with after I stopped rowing at the end of high school was learning to re-engage with the sport from a place of joy because I was so traumatized by having to just stare at the same screen for four years straight. So can you guys talk a little bit more about really like the gamified functionality of Averon? When we were at the wellness summit, you were kind of showing me different games and different ways that you can make the sport of rowing playful and fun. So can you just dive a little bit more into the different types of games and really like where this desire for gamification came into play? It's interesting. You said you have to stare at those two metrics, and they're not really taking you anywhere. You're just honing in on those things. I think the best comparison for someone who's never used Averon is imagine using those metrics to actually get a point or run away from a zombie or something else where there is an extrinsic reward and a visual that goes along with those metrics that is actually entertaining and fun. So you're not paying attention to that specific number, but more so where that number gets you for lack of a better like explanation. To add up to what Anessa is saying, I think traditionally a lot of workouts have always been about the end result, which is how do you feel at the end of your workout? Because that's really what people are going for. Like how many calories did you feel at the end of your workout? Like how do you feel at the end of your workout? But at Averon, we really focus on the journey itself. And we focus on the journey itself by rewarding you with like micro-awards and progression during your workout and along that workout. And that's where it's really different than looking at two numbers. It's like you're visually being stimulated, your mind is being stimulated. There's audio cues coming at you. That's where we're very different than like the old school just looking at two numbers. But to answer your question around the gaming piece, what I want to clarify is that Averon is, we like to call ourselves as a fitness entertainment platform. So we're not just gaming. And the reason why I say this, because we do have streaming services, we do have coach classes, we do have virtual rowing, we have gaming. But where we pull it all together and we tie it together is we use gaming psychology and design to make that experience fun and somebody even say addictive. So gaming is at the core of the company and the business and the product. But at the service level, we don't just use pure gaming. So I'll give you two examples of how we use gaming psychology. One example is we have our own currency, in-game currency called our Averon Experience Coins. So you can be rowing on Netflix for an hour and for every minute that you row, you earn one experience coin. You use those coins to unlock new avatars, new backgrounds, new levels, and new workouts across the entire platform, which is like a core principle from gaming. Another example of gaming is, you know, when I used to play games, one of the best things about playing games was that I could jump online at any time of the day and there would be thousands of people I could play with. And so with Avaron, at any time of the day, you can jump on and do multi-player workouts with other people in virtual rowing or in gaming. And what that means is like someone could be in a game 10 minutes into the game and you could jump in and just join them for five minutes during their workout and you could hop out versus like your traditional connect fitness experience where you have to start every day at like 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. like there's a specific time you need to start at. Yeah, I think to define some of the ways that we've made the games really intuitive without using just specific rowing references is, you know, jumping on and rowing and using your intensity and your output to throw snowballs with other people. So there's like themes that are more winter and you're looking at Santa Claus and there's gifts and there's snowballs. So you're all working as a team to ward off the little evil characters in that game. There's also games where you're running away from zombies. There's ones where you're shooting bugs. So different ways where you're really just rowing, but you're engaging with games in a different way and engaging different metrics and different ways that you're using the rower and not always fast, not always for intensity, but sometimes strategically in order to gain points or win, work with your team or compete against someone else. So different ways, but all very intuitive with just like the rowing motion itself. I want to go back to what Andy had mentioned earlier around focusing more on the journey rather than the outcome. And I think that's a really important distinction to make because so often life in general, but specifically if we're just looking at fitness, a lot of people tend to be very outcome oriented. Like how many calories they're burning, like you mentioned, how long they're working out for how they physically look and physical changes to their appearance. And it's oftentimes I believe that the most effective workouts are really when you're able to cultivate that joy within you and do movement that's fun. And I think that this is something that a lot of former athletes struggle with as well, like transitioning from doing a sport competitively to working out recreationally or like playing a sport recreationally and just trying to redefine and re-engage with fitness in a different way. And I would love to hear your personal backgrounds on fitness and exercise, whether or not you come from, you know, an athletic background or really how your own personal experiences with fitness shaped the way in which you've engaged with building Averon. And even as we dove into kind of game psychology, just keeping ourselves motivated while we're working out in a non competitive or traditionally competitive way. It's interesting you say that because the culture at Averon is very different than what I think people expect. So for one, we on purpose do not hire rowers and we do not hire people who are like super active and athletes, even though we have a ton of people that are like, I love rowing and I want to work for you or I used to be playing competitive, whatever, and I'd love to work for your company because at Averon, we're trying to build an experience or product for everybody. And so that means that we purposefully try to hire regular people because they understand the pain of regular people go through. Yeah, more specifically people who don't work out consistently or have trouble working out consistently and just enjoying it versus someone who's really athletic or has been a rower or a competitive rower. They have different motivations and different ways they've come to motivate themselves. Yeah. And I think that's why like everything from the product itself to the customer service, like we can resonate better with our customers. And this is an interesting fact. 90% of our customers have never rode more than twice in their life and 50% of our customers have never even been on a rower in their lives. But they want to improve their lives. They know that rowing is an amazing exercise and coupled with the experience that we're building, that's what really resonates with them. I think it's fascinating that most people who use the rower actually haven't rode before or don't come from a rowing background. But more specifically, you know, for the two of you, your own personal experiences with exercise and fitness, you know, have either of you grow up playing any sports or being a competitive athlete, like did your own experiences perhaps shape the way in which you're engaging with Avra now or really like the whole concept behind the product? Yeah. For myself, I've always been super active. So I, I did martial arts for over 20 years, like quite competitively. I have like black belts and cruddy and tech one dough and it comes through and jujitsu. So I was like super super active when I was younger and I was like traveling around and competing. So I definitely played a part in the actual product and the experience that we're building, which is very different than let's say the class-based experience. That's why being competitive and I gaming side really comes through in the actual experience itself. I think for people who enjoyed any type of team sports, camaraderie, even like martial arts isn't necessarily a team sport, but just the crudery of like seeing people doing things together. As you get older, there's less and less opportunities to do that as an adult outside of like beer leagues, which can be difficult to squeeze into your schedule. So this is, I think something we've heard a lot from people and we didn't necessarily think of initially as this is a way to engage and be competitive in a fun, positive way with other people while working out because people don't talk about very often as competition as that motivator. Some people love to be competitive as they work out. It motivates them. It's more fun for them in that way. So we see that quite a bit, people who were really active or especially through the pandemic to begin to discover or look for ways to have that without the in person. So I think that really comes from Andy's experience as well. On my end, I did a lot of gymnastics growing up, but I wouldn't say that I was like super athletic, but my family has always been really health conscious. Like my father's a personal trainer, and my parents are very, very healthy, healthier than I feel like I am. Eat perfect whole organic food, and they've really instilled the importance of just being active and taking your own personal health seriously from a young age. So I think that's what influences me is just that deep intrinsic knowledge that we have to be active and we have to take care of our health in whatever way works for us because it is really different for everybody. Exactly what you said in this last point that health looks different for everyone or what works for one person might not work for another and growing up, whether or not you did sports competitively, you know, it's very much like you're kind of in this structure or routine. At least I know for myself when I was on a rowing team, I just let my coach decide what the workout was going to be. Like I just kind of followed the rules and I put trust into that, knowing that that was going to impact my health. But then once you are no longer in a sport or as you grow up essentially and become an adult, like you were mentioning earlier in ESSA, like it's harder to find those communities where you're able to kind of be competitive again or come together through a shared interest in a certain sport or activity. And something that I actually found to be really helpful was about six months ago over the summer I joined a run club and I wouldn't consider myself to be like a hardcore runner whatsoever. But I joined this running community in the city and for the first time, like the first time I went to the run club, it felt like I was back on a crew team, but all of the benefits from like what I'd experienced on my high school rowing team. And what I mean by that was I was with this group of people that were helping like push me to be a better version of myself through cheering me on during this five mile run. I'd never run five miles before in my life. And so there's something really special about being in community with people when you're trying to push yourself physically, which then also trickles into like our mental well-being, that sense of like self-efficacy. But I think is really cool about Averon as well as that, you know, it's this one product like you're doing the rowing workout. And it's very individualized because it's just you on the machine. But then you're kind of immersed in this community. And I know you were both talking about this earlier as far as like those specific gamification features and ways you can kind of hop in and hop out of different experiences and meet other people. But I would love for you both to talk a little bit more about like the nature of the product how it's very individual where you're just kind of working out on your own. But then you can also choose your own adventure and connect with other users as well and build that sort of community. You don't necessarily have to be outside at a run club to get that same sort of like motivation and reward. You can kind of do it from the comfort of your own machine, which I think is really fascinating. We started to see members refer to the accountability of working out with other people and so one of our very early features. was the ability to add friends. And so you have a friend's list. You can see if people are online and you can see what their stats are and there's a way to connect to the community. But as we saw the feedback from customers at that accountability and having been able to work out with others with something that was really driving them, we developed a lot more features to help them with that ecosystem. So yeah, to add to that, like your example of a run club is a great example with most of our customers. They're not in like metropolitan areas. They're in suburban areas and their families typically. So it's like very busy hectic schedules. And so it makes it even harder to do something like a run club because it's just too far away or they just don't have enough time. And so we've definitely doubled down and continued to build a community aspect into the product. So today we have over eight different categories of ways you can work out with other people simultaneously in real time. So we have games. We have live competition where you're racing. You can even do a virtual role as an example with someone from around the world. So we're taking things that are traditionally not multiplayer and bringing it into a multiplayer type of experience. So virtual rolling guided programs is just so many examples. And today we have over a thousand different workout options. So it's a very, very wide variety, but they all center around that community and bringing people together to work out together. Yes, specifically you mentioned, you ran five miles, which you didn't think you could do. So we noticed that type of behavior happening with our customers. So we created options where if you're rolling or you're doing something, you get notifications on your screen if somebody inviting you to a workout. So I might just be finishing up and then I have a group invite me to another workout. And I'm like, I already did 20 minutes. Like I was going to hop off, but people when they receive those notifications and invitations from other people that they know or have met on the row or they're much more likely to hop into another workout. And then in that workout, one of our most popular types of games are cooperative. So they're all working together towards a common goal. And what happens is you don't want to let your team down. So once you're in it, you're like, you know what? I'm only going to do five minutes, but you end up doing 20 because you're all going after one goal. And it's exciting to see the points go up. You're hitting the next level. You're seeing new characters and things that you haven't seen before. So we're seeing a lot of that feedback from customers and creating features specifically to encourage that behavior. Our data, specifically, but our data shows that those that engage with the multiplayer aspect are just much more likely to stick with the product, which really means stick with workouts. Consistently. So we want to do everything we can with a product itself to encourage that behavior because we know that I'm sure you stick with it. And that's good for everyone. Yeah, that's so fascinating because it really kind of comes down to like the science of habit formation and motivation and psychology. And really when we're thinking about building healthier lives for ourselves and doing practices that make us feel good and that take care of ourselves, oftentimes the hardest part is starting, you know, just showing up is half the battle. Just out of curiosity, did either of you work with psychologist or a sports psychologist when developing the actual like features and designs to basically create this product that would translate to these psychological principles so that people will feel that reward and motivation because what I hear a lot is the power of community and the power of having other people hold you accountable to helping you reach your goals. And I think that really is true across all other areas of life beyond even just fitness and exercise. Like you're more likely to stick with something if someone is kind of nudging you and then cheering you along and helping you stay accountable to falling through with what you say you're going to do. Yeah, I think the reason why we've been able to build such kind of like an addictive experience is because 100% of our development team, which is over 50% of employees at our company, come from the gaming world. So they have taken best practices from working at some of the best gaming companies around the world. And that's how we're able to apply those game psychology principles to our platform is by hiring like great talent that has been doing that in another industry, which is not related to fitness. We really started with game design. So people who knew how to design a game to make you immersed, excited, even addicted. So you want to stay on, come back, which are all positive things to apply to exercise, especially to rowing, which is challenging. Then I think community is interesting because it happened completely naturally. So we started a Facebook community. It was a way for us to engage in a really casual open format with our customers. And it grew from there. And from there, we've got a lot of feedback from that community that, oh, great, this is really working. This is really a big part of why the product works. So we've then invested in not only the product itself, but the community itself to ensure that it continues to grow in the right direction with lots of positivity and transparency and all of those good things. And then game psychology is another layer on top of that, which we've realized in our journey through community and game design that we are inadvertently using a lot of these principles. And it's interesting that you say that because we're only now going down the path of working with people in those fields to define what we're doing and to take us to the next level. So we can do even better, make things even more habit forming to your point. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting how one piece of impact or one way that Averon has made impact on the users also kind of trickles into another area as well. So focusing first on game design, but then community kind of organically forming, it also kind of like feeds into each other, which is exciting as well as you continue on this journey. And I think this is a great point in the interview to switch gears more into your entrepreneurial journeys as well. And how the two of you met and came together and ultimately are building Averon. So I would love to hear more about, aside from the founding story, really both Andy and Enanessa, you know, how the both of you have kind of stepped into this entrepreneurial career path and then found each other and started building and working on Averon together. Averon is actually interesting because we're not your traditional. We are venture back. We're fortunate to be venture back with things we have great investors that believe in us, but we weren't always a venture back business. And I think this is how most businesses start, which is people have an idea and then they take their own money from savings, from a line of credit, from whatever it is friends and family. And that's how the business was started. So I started in 2016 as a part time thing that I did in the evenings in the weekends and built the product higher to a couple of people to help me build it. And then we launched it into the market at the end of 2018, really. So that's really when we went to the market. And for the first couple of years, it was really, it was truly a really savage grind, not having any funding and then trying to build a hardware business is very, very tough. I think the key to why we made it is a lot of being naive essentially and just not knowing how challenging it was going to be. But we persevered. And then in 2020, our business was primarily between the launch until 2020. It was a B2B business. So we were selling to gyms and hotels just because it was like easier going direct consumers, not easy, need money, need people. But then with COVID, all the gym shut down, all the hotel shut down. So we had to pivot and we pivoted to direct to consumer in that year. And I think that's when a NASA really saw the opportunity. Yeah. So I'm a late co-founder. So it was really Andy's baby for the first couple of years. I was around at the sidelines. But 2020 was when everything changed and kind of threw us together. So we had already met. We were already in a relationship. Andy was doing Avron on the side. We both had full-time jobs. And before the pandemic, he had gone like full-time. We had launched Avron. To his point, it was very B2B where brand and marketing was not as important. And that's where really my passions lie. In 2020, though, when we pivoted to the consumer market and got thrown together in the pandemic, you know, couldn't leave the house and actually got laid off from my current role during the pandemic. So it was perfect timing, more or less, for us to kind of try to work this out together. And that's when it got really exciting because for a consumer brand and for e-commerce, you're really building the story and the foundation of this brand and explaining it to consumers. And that's when I got really excited. So that's kind of how it started. Well, two follow-up questions here. First, I did not know that you both were in a relationship. So I would love to hear how it is working together, but also being in a relationship because I'm sure there are difficulties that come with that. So whatever you want to share in the podcast, would love to hear your perspective on navigating that balance. But then secondly, you had mentioned the need to pivot due to COVID and hotels, gym, shutting down, needing to kind of think differently, be more innovative, more expansive. Pivoting is just a hard thing to do in life. I think humans are naturally resistant to change. So how did you navigate the decision to have to pivot and gain the the confidence to do it to actually make it out change and to do it. something different because of external circumstances that were kind of guiding you to have to make that change in how you were gonna operate. Yeah, I think as a founder, like founders just eat shit all the time. It's like how much shit can you eat and still keep going? That's what it's like to be a founder. And during the first couple of years it was really, really tough. I think I took out a total of nearly half a million dollars in loans. And I didn't even know how much money I was losing because I was just naive. I was like, "Okay, this trade show is gonna cost me $20,000. Oh, I need to build mold for the price and cost me $100,000." Yeah, so in the beginning it was just really, really, really, really tough. And perseverance is the reason why we pivoted. It's like, "Okay, let's try this. Let's try that." And at a certain point, you make that switch because you're not really gonna give up. And I think that's the key. The answer is, in hindsight, it all just kind of happens. It's not like you sit down and you think about it for three months and you create a big business plan. At a certain point, given that the business is so small and there's like two founders and essentially like maybe three employees at the time, you just make the call to either go down that path or not go down that path. And to Andy's point, all of that is really just the decision to keep going or not keep going in the face of challenges, which it feels like that was, in hindsight, maybe a very major challenge, but really the whole journey is just different types of challenges and making the decision at each point to keep going, even though you don't know the outcome. And I think it's hard to like create trust within yourself to know that you're making the right decision. So how have you tried to find that sense of trust within yourselves? Because you mentioned it's like you either decide to keep going or not keep going. But how do you know, maybe it's with practice, that the decision that you're making will actually drive towards this outcome of, what's going to help us keep going is going to help us keep innovating. How do you find that trust within yourself? That's a great question. It's very tough to answer. It's just something that, and that's just what differentiates like some founders to other ones. I think for me, if I think back, there's been very few times where I thought it was going to fail. Even though if you look at it from an outside perspective, I think most people would be like, your company's dead. You have no money left and you're so much dead and you're not selling anything like you should just give up. But from my lens, I can only think of maybe one time in the entire history of the business where I was like, I might have to give up. But even in that point, like that moment, I definitely still wouldn't give up. For me, there's always been a possibility of recovering or an opportunity to find a solution, find the answer. You just have to believe in yourself, really. It's tough as it is. When everybody's telling you you're not going to make it, you have to believe in yourself. It's a really tough answer. I think the way I've always described Andy because he is good at making tough decisions and moving forward is that he's a very linear thinker. He moves in one straight direction forward. And I think a part of that is that he's very heavily biased to execution. So the only advice I can think of is in order to believe in yourself, you really only want to back up your thinking with action. I want to think less or as little as and really make a plan execute, make a plan execute. Even personally, I think before Avron, and I've had like small little failed startups along the way, it's the overthinking and the over planning and the lack of executing against things that will lead you in that direction of not having trust for yourself. Because there is no right answer and you'll never know if it works. So I think a bias for action and execution is a way to build confidence. That's a really interesting point. It kind of reminds me of Nike, honestly. Just do it. Instead of overthinking, just act. Just do it because the more you actually do something, you're like you mentioned in us, that you're building that evidence that then supports the belief or the desire to do something. If you actually are doing these small actions, it does add up. And then it kind of proves to yourself, oh, like I did do that or oh, I did accomplish this. Although the time I could have spent overthinking about which road do I go down? I eliminate it all of that and I just started simply executing and through that process, then you're actually able to achieve what you're hoping for or maybe it's not that desired outcome. But through the process of doing those small actions, it takes you down in a whole other path you couldn't have ever imagined. And I think that's just really great life advice in general. It's interesting how entrepreneurship, I feel like, can be kind of a metaphor in a way for building your own life and leading the best version of a life that you can for yourself. But I want to shift gears a little bit into the concept of happiness and endorphins, which is what this podcast is all about finding this daily endorphin boosts in life. And obviously what really drew my eye to Avaron is it being a fitness based product and having a background and rowing. Obviously you get your endorphins from exercise. So that's one way to boost a little bit of joy every day. But in the context of entrepreneurship and dealing with difficulties, how have the both of you defined what it means to be happy and to find joy in life. I think for me, and it's important to understand that obviously this is answers very, like it's it's very me because I'm an entrepreneur and I think it resonates more of entrepreneurs, but progress is extremely important. I told the NASA, you know, would I rather would we rather have a business that's $100 million in sales a year, but then the next year is like $101 million, so making very little progress, or we rather have a business that's like much smaller at $5 million over growing exponentially, like 100% a year. Like that smaller business brings me much more enjoyment because I'm learning a lot. I'm progressing. I'm winning. I'm finding new customers and changing people. Like that's really, really exciting for me. And I think that's what makes me happy is like, yeah progress. We both subscribe to this idea of twos and tens. We heard it on a podcast once most people live their life day to day somewhere in like a four to six. You're feeling like, okay, pretty good, better, worse, like some days a little worse, some days are a little bit better. When you go down a founder path, you have very low days. So you're going down to two sometimes like things get really bad. Like we talked about the challenges where you don't know the way out. You're not sure if the business is going to make it. But that's balanced by seven, eight, nine, even tens. So the feeling of accomplishment, getting around those challenges. So similar to what Andy said in that progress is understanding that up and down cycle and knowing that when things are really bad, there's a good chance they're going to get really good. And it's something that really drives us and it helps us find joy even in the twos. That's such a good point. Yeah, because we're like, okay, well, if it's a two now, we must be at the bottom, but that means the next step is eventually getting back to the 10. I'll give an example, like when we were fundraising. So we're very fortunate we've raised from amazing investors. Imagine going through and pitching over 120 times. Remember we did our seed right over 120 pitches. And the majority of people were like, we're not interested. You know, your business is not strong enough or you know, peloton's the first, whatever it is. And sometimes they even get text messages from other people saying, hey, I talked to this investor. This is what they said about you. It was super hurtful. Man, I worked so hard on this. I can't they see like progress that we're making, whatever it is. And so you're you're down in the twos. You're working really long hours on the business and you're trying to fundraise and everyone's telling you that, you know, you're not going to be successful. But then you find that investor that's like, I believe in you. And here's 18 and a half million dollars. Let's go take it to the top together. Like you go from a two to a 10. And that feeling is unscribable. And that's what makes it so rewarding and why we continue to push. Totally agree. I love that response. I think it's so easy to lose sight of the fact that the tens exist when you're stuck in the twos. Regardless of if you're a founder or not, just if you're going even through a difficult time in life or something happens where it just it puts you in kind of a downward spiral. It's so easy to lose sight of the fact that like the 10 is inevitable. And it's important to also recognize that they are inevitable because without there's that cheesy quote, whatever it is like without dark. There's lightness or vice versa. Like there's always going to be the flip side. And I do fully believe that whenever you're going through a difficult time. Like you have the choice to get yourself out of it, but also learning to kind of sit in that and recognize that good is coming. Like we'll get you there quicker too. And I think this is just something that can be applied within entrepreneurs at entrepreneurship outside of entrepreneurship just in life in general. in general and I think the founder's story kind of magnifies the lessons that we're talking about here today. So really appreciate the both of you sharing that. It's really inspiring for me as well. And as we wrap the interview, I wanna ask you both a question that I ask every single guest that comes onto the show. So besides kind of the feeling, that indescribable feeling you were just describing, what is something that brings the both of you in dolphins like a sense of joy every day? They can really be anything. So anything is up for grabs. - You wanna go first? You wanna go first? - I can go. - I thought of something. - Okay. - 'Cause it's hard for Andy 'cause he really lives in breeds, not to say I don't, but he lives in breeds the business so much that it's almost like the answer for the business is the answer for him personally. Anyway, I thought of something that I never really thought of before, but I've been getting more into it lately, is taking the time to listen to music. And this is kind of cheesy, but classical music specifically. I find that when I need a little bit of calm or a little bit of something else, like when you're going for a walk instead of a podcast and something else to stimulate your mind, listening to classical music has really given me some type of endorphin boost that I didn't realize that it could and it's been something I've been kind of using as a little bit of a tool when I need a boost in the last little while. It's different, right? It's like not the quick boost of social media or being entertained with a podcast or something else that you potentially do in your free time, but I find that something is going on and it definitely like gets your endorphins going. - Mine's been more cheesy. - You're even more cheesy. - Yeah, because it's like, I've seen so many Instagram stories where people like they hate these type of people, but we started a cold plunging. - Oh, okay, that's a good one. And every single time we have the cold finds, I hate it. I'm like, oh my God, this is so stupid, it's so cold. And then when you get out of it, I was like, okay, I'm ready for the day. I feel good and that's one of the things that I do on a regular basis that really gets my endorphins. - Yeah, honestly, it's like a hack, I would say, if for anyone who's done it, because the feeling is indescribable, but unlike Averon, it is painful. It is so painful, you never wanna do it, but afterwards it does give you a feeling that you can conquer the world. So yes, that's a good one. I would highly recommend that as well. - I love both of your answers, 'cause I used to play the violin, so I grew up really immersed in classical music. I don't play anymore and I don't really listen to classical music now, but it is a genre that is very relaxing. And sometimes when you need that, it really hits the spot sometimes, just getting to zone out and listen to songs that don't have lyrics, it can be very meditative. And then cold plunging, I've also become obsessed with and I post about it a lot and I'm kind of like, whoever's following me, I don't need people to think this is my whole personality trait. I do love to cold plunge and I talk about it often time. But there are so many practices that can make you feel like you're on top of the world. However, cold exposure definitely is one practice that I think immediately you feel that benefit. And I've done it so often that I've grown to actually like stepping into the ice bath. Like I don't mind the pain, I'm just kind of weird, but I really do enjoy it. One of my friends is a Nike trainer and she does cold exposure workshops and waited the opportunity in October of 2023 to do like a three year podcast anniversary event and it was a cold plunge and breathwork and that was just really fun. And it was really fun for me to get like my friends together to do cold exposure when a lot of them hadn't done it before. So maybe my endorphin thrill is watching other people push themselves out of their comfort zone for the first time. So I loved both of your responses. Thank you so much, Andy and Esa, for coming on to the show. Where can my followers find you, connect with you, where can they check out Avron and stay plugged into the community? - Few different places. Our website is avronactive.com, it's ABI, RLN. Our Avron Instagram is Avron.active, but my personal Instagram is Avron Andy because I'm like really into the business. - The most interesting place to go, if you are at all interested in Avron, is actually the Facebook community. Even if you're not a big Facebook user, which I'm not outside of the community itself, but it's really kind of intriguing how positive and awesome the people are, no judgment, whatever you're there for. And I think it's a really great representation of the goodness of like Avron and what we've tried to build. Other than that, I'm not gonna like recommend any of my social media handles, but open to people connecting me on LinkedIn and having conversations. Andy and I are always, I don't think we talked about it, but always open to conversations, opportunities, connection. So we're very much people who are receptive to people reaching out and having conversations. It's a big part of what we do. - I'll add to that. I think one of an important traits that every founder, everyone should have is curiosity. Curiosity is extremely important. If you're not curious, you're not gonna improve. And if you're not gonna improve, then your business or your life is gonna be stagnant in my opinion. And that's why we were always open to meeting new people because being curious and learning about other people and their journeys has always been helpful in our own journeys. - Yeah, well, I felt that immediately at the wellness summit just walking around and then finding my way to Avron and I asked you a million questions and got to try out the product for myself so I could definitely sense both of your curiosity and just so fortunate that we got to meet and do this interview. So thank you both so much again for coming on to the show. Everything that you just mentioned will be linked in the show notes. So whoever out there is listening, please feel free to connect with Andy and Anessa. And I hope that you also feel empowered to make your fitness routine fun and enjoyable because I think that's really what it's all about. So yeah, thanks again. - Thank you. - Amazing. Thanks for having us, Ella. (upbeat music) - Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the Everyday Endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time. (upbeat music)