Ep. 122 | Interview With Twice Kidnapped Survivor | Jan Broberg

Verustin pyöräilyvää teitä valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Mielestäni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista, voimme hallinnoida yrityksen taustajaristeelle mien ja frontendia sekä myydä verkossa, vaivatta, jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoiminta me hoituu Shopify'ssa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu, Shopify piste.com sivustolla. In 1974, in the small town of Pokotello Idaho, 12-year-old Jan Broberg, was kidnapped by a man her family knew and trusted a close family friend, a fellow church member, a man her parents considered family. And two years later, he took her again. And many people know the outline of this story from the Netflix documentary "Abducted in Plain Site", which left millions of viewers asking the same question, "How could this possibly happen?" And the answer is grooming. Robert Birchtold, nicknamed "B" by the family, didn't just target Jan. He spent years methodically earning the trust, affection, and loyalty of her entire family, positioning himself so deeply inside their lives that by the time the abuse began, the people who loved Jan most couldn't see what was right in front of them. And that's what makes her story so incredibly important. And also incredibly uncomfortable, because it wasn't a failure of love. It was a masterclass in manipulation. One, that could happen to almost any family. And the documentary told her story in 90 minutes, shaped by strategic editing and framed for shock. But this interview is different and this is really why I wanted to sit down with her. Jan is so incredibly lovely and well-spoken. And I just wanted her to be able to tell her story in her way. And she does it beautifully. She walks through how the grooming unfolded step by step and how each member of her family was targeted differently and how she was abducted twice and how she survived and how she has spent her life since making sure other families can recognize what hers couldn't at the time. And today, Jan is an actor, an author, a speaker, and an advocate. And she produced the Peacock series "A Friend of the Family" based on her family story and she founded the Jan Broberg Foundation, which supports survivors of childhood abuse on their healing journey and works to educate families and communities on preventing abuse before it happens. And you can learn more and find more resources at thejanbrobergfoundation.org. But without further ado, it is my absolute pleasure to introduce Jan Broberg in her own words. Jan Broberg in her own words Jan Broberg in her own words It is time for Jan Broberg in her own words. Jan Broberg in her own words. So when they moved in, I mean, they bring us, "Oh, gosh, Bacchlava." And all these cool things, yeah, that we'd never eaten before. And I don't know, we were friends with everybody. - That's wonderful, yeah. - And you did feel like you could trust everyone. My parents certainly had an open door policy, you know? And especially when, you know, we met people and they're in your same congregation. You really feel a sense of trust because it's already meant to be a place of trust. Of course, and this was in the late '60s and early '70s at this point. - Right, so also, yeah, just that kind of time, that's the time period. - Yeah, it was just trusting everybody. - And really our home was warm, it was comfortable. But yeah, you felt like you could have people come over. And I mean, some of my greatest memories were in that tiny kitchen, which I had no idea it was so small. - You never do as a kid. - Oh my gosh, I got back there. - I went back there to face all my fears on another documentary that's out there on Peacock, called The Friend of the Family True Evil. And I was with Andrea Canning. And we went all over to all the places where I had fear. And when I walked into the kitchen, I'm like, how did we fit a table in here? I mean, literally, it was so small. Anyway, yeah, and my dad, he was a florist. He owned a flower shop. And my dad is an identical twin and kitty corner from the flower shop, was Keybank and Trust, which my uncle, his twin brother, worked at. And so they were famous in Pocotello. They had grown up there. - My mother came from a different part of Idaho, American Falls, Manhattan, different smaller, even smaller towns. But my dad and my uncle would get together for lunch every day when they leave work. They'd go to my grandma's house, down the hall. - You know, right, I mean, it was like a tradition and they'd spend 30 minutes with their mom and have a little, I don't know, cookies and milk, I don't know what I did. And then dad would be home. And we'd have dinner together. I mean, it was a very traditional life that everybody knew my dad and my uncle. They would walk on their hands to school. And then they played the piano together. So they would do duets. So in Rotary Club, for example, you know, they're playing duets on the piano and the men are singing from the Rotary Club, you know, songbook and everybody knew my parents. Being a florist, you meet people on their best days, you know. Somebody's getting married and on their sad days when somebody passes. - Yeah. - And my dad knew how to care for people in a really genuine way. - Yeah. - And people loved him. We had to have two funeral services for him. - There were so many people. - Yeah, that's wonderful. - And we stood there as girls and my mother. At the second funeral that was in Pogotello, the other one was in the city where he died. And he made an impact there too, you know, even though he was retired. But that was kind of the, I had a wonderful parents. - Oh. - And Al, they're both gone. It's weird. - Yeah. - The first interview I've had like this since my mother passed just a few months ago. - I'm so sorry for the loss. - I'm so sorry. - And she had Alzheimer's. - She had Alzheimer's severely. And especially the last couple of years, my dad had passed away in 2018. November of 2018 and he had already started telling me, your mom is, you know, and my grandmother, her mother had had it and got to the point where she had to be in a home and would just kind of mumble. She'd see you and I didn't say words anymore. And so, you know, we were all afraid of that. So she got her degree in social work. And this was after you were already an adult. - Yeah. - We're already, she's already got all of her girls in school and then she decides, I think I should do more with my life, you know? - Yeah. - And that's what she ended up doing and she placed. We have, I mean, through all the boxes, I've been going through hundreds of letters and cards and pictures of all the children that either had to be taken out of an abusive home and were put in foster care, but she knew every foster family. She was, they, and many ended up adopting. So about, I didn't know it was this many, but it was like 275 children. - Wow. - That were, that she helped that process and do the adoptions and all of that and kept in touch. And people would send her gifts and cards. And, you know, she was very quiet about her success. She was never out front. That wasn't her personality or my dad. And the flower business, he was a creative like me and it's passion and isn't that beautiful? Isn't that beautiful? You know, whatever, he just very much that kind of personality and I'm very much like him, or I have a pretty good mix of it. - It's a grace and elegance and you're extroverted. And that's a beautiful combination. - It's pretty loud and passionate. - That's okay. That's good. - And that's her two sisters. - I have two younger sisters. - Yeah, and you're the oldest. - I know, the oldest, two years apart. - Yeah. - Then comes Karen, then comes Susan. - Okay. - And we all feel the same way about our parents. They were special. - She's wonderful. - And did your mom, do you think, did she go into social work because of? - I don't know. - Just maybe. She never said that, but I know. - I always felt like my mother carried this kind of, you know, I'm a woman of faith, I'm this person and how could I have let somebody, you know? And what we talk about, all these things, my parents obviously were open books by the time everybody was ready to tell the story. They all told the truth. And I think that's why it went viral in the first place because you don't see that all the time. - No. - And my parents were so honest. In fact, I have relatives that are like, why did you cut that out? You're not such a good person or your mom's so wonderful. And we feel bad like it. I'm like, I asked them, and they both said, look, if something that we, whether it was a mistake we made, or something that we did right, or how you don't see the predator because they're your best friend, whatever. If people can learn something from our story and see themselves in our story, and that helps them, that's what we want. We want more children to be protected. We want people to see the groomers, the predators, before they do the worst. And they were both really willing to tell the truth. - Yeah, no. I think the honesty is so much service. All this context matters so much. - Yeah, so I feel like she had that little bit to answer that question completely. That little bit of guilt, like I could have, I should have, you know, those things that we do to ourselves in hindsight, and I think that was part of it that she wanted to make sure she made it impact, and that she made a difference in the lives of children. - So you have a beautiful childhood happening, and then you're around, what, it was at 11 or 12 when you meet this other family. - Yeah, we actually met him. We actually met him and his wife and five children at church, and I was nine almost 10. I was nine and a half. It was the, I don't know, my birthdays in the summer, and we had met them, you know, earlier, like maybe six months earlier, but we didn't do our first activity with them until I was right around my 10th birthday. - Okay, yeah. - Yeah, and when you met them, I'm assuming it was like meeting any other family that just came in. It was warm, yeah, it was warm. It was really just so much fun, and I have a little diary. I should have brought it because it's falling apart, and I didn't fill it in all the way, but I did start, my dad gave it to me. It was just a little diary, and I have the date. He gave it to me in 1971 or something running that time period, and there are so many entries about what we did with the virtual family. We were all friends, you know, that was the thing that was so remarkable about having them move in, 'cause they had their oldest four were boys, but their oldest three boys were almost exactly the same ages as me and my two sisters. So yeah, I was nine, Karen would have been seven, Susan was only five, and he, I think immediately, saw the opportunity because we just lived within a block and a half of our two families, and I believe that they identify their next victim, or their next subject, pretty early on, at least the slow burn of this particular criminal, criminal pedophile, but it took almost what, three years, I mean, and we had done hundreds, hundreds of activities. - How soon after you met them, did the friendship start? - So really within that, like I said, about six months we had met them and seen them at church, and you know, there was definitely a connection already, and you know, 'cause we're all in the same Sunday school classes with their boys, you know, we're all kind of doing our own little Bible studies and whatever, you know, and I think probably about six months is really right around the time that we had our first major, what I remember, activity, and they had invited us, there's a thing we do in the LDS church, encouraged his families to have a family night. Like once a week, do something with your family at home, together, you know, sing a song, do an activity, have a lesson, have treats, you know? That was sort of the first thing we did with that family. We had a special, and what they did, they invited us to their house, and we sat on the living room. floor with a big picnic blanket and that we did dinner on the floor. We sat around. I can't remember if we found dude and then she was a really good cook and I remember that the activity was to actually, I think was to make the cookies and I still use her recipe to this day and I have it in her handwriting. You know and there's the chocolate chip cookie recipe. We were very close and that was sort of the first memory I have. I'm not sure that was the first activity we did. So was most of those first times together was it all with the family? It was just a family gathering. Yes and that went on for you know two years and sometimes it would be just me and his oldest son because we were the same age in school and whatever we'd sometimes do homework together or whatever and then eventually as school started again in the fall by that fall you know after that experience I swear it was in maybe late spring early summer right before my birthday but by fall we had done enough things that my dad would go to work early like he ran, you know he owned and ran a flower shop and so he had to be there early whereas this guy we called him B by this time okay so so Bob they were both named Bob and B and he had a furniture store in town and it was on the front page of the newspaper just black and white but his picture was in it was a customer sitting on one of the couches he was the new furniture store owner in town. So there were so many reasons not to be alarmed but that's generally how it really is in the real world and especially today. You just don't know that you're sitting and spending time with and growing to love and trust this person who's eventually going to kidnap your daughter and you don't you don't they look normal it's really that's my message more than anything in telling my story is it looked so normal you assume the values are the same you know you both go to the same church whatever I really look back at that whole grooming really it was a grooming process because he was busy getting close to my dad you know they both worked in businesses that were basically his business was a little farther from my dad and my uncle you know his twin brother my uncle Dick they were real close together but his was a little farther away you know blocks away but he'd often just stop in the store and say let's go to you know come on Bob let's go lunch you know and and dad had opened the till and take out an $10 bill and I'll say go to lunch and and he was he had a plan yeah but none of us knew that we just thought we were becoming best friends and so I did things with all of his children and then eventually and my mom really liked his wife they would do things and being the same circle of some service thing that they were doing from church or whatever she was very shy his wife was very quiet and kind of shy my mother was reserved but she wasn't shy so they they got along really well as well and so you know by the time you know two years have gone by I mean we all consider these guys really our best friends now my best friend who is still my best friend to this day had moved in to the neighborhood around the same time we were nine we were both in fifth grade and that she Caroline all these years many many years you know over 50 years as she'd been my best friend and and it's interesting because I did a lot with her and sometimes I can remember her saying are you done the the first holds come wait we're doing blah blah blah you know or something there was always and there were several other people some of our our friends as kids that were like you're always doing stuff with them and I actually found a letter from Elaine Hoffman who was they were one block through the block and then the birchchildren were one more block up the side and they we played with their kids I didn't really have anybody my age but my sister Karen and Susan they both had really close friends in the Hoffman family and I found a letter from Elaine Hoffman and she said I have to write out my feelings and my thoughts because I'm afraid you'll take it wrong we feel like we've been replaced by the birch stalls you don't spend enough time with us and we miss you and it was a really sweet letter but it was pretty direct and she said we just want you to know that we're here we love you and we don't know how to kind of get into this inner circle with you and the birch stalls because it really what he he was very methodical looking back you don't see it as it's happening but as we look back on the story he was creating a special relationship with every with all the family members who really mattered which was my mother my father and me and also with Karen and Susan but looking back you can see how he would sometimes especially Karen he would just leave her kind of out oh interesting because Karen at age now 10 or 10-ish was developing she was becoming a young lady I was years away from puberty and Susan was very much like me she was very tiny and that was his thing and he used that in the brainwashing looking back you can see it so clearly but you don't see it when you're in the middle of it you're thinking gosh these guys have a boat yeah they have a snow they have snowmobiles that they have a trampoline right you know my dad was a florist we never went without but we didn't have extra there wasn't a lot of that you know we weren't poor we were medium and he utilized all of those things so we went on boating trips you know our families together we went on the snowmobiles and up to a cabin you know out in the mountains and and we did a lot of activities with them and we slept over and slept on the trampoline you know with all the kids and we we knock ourselves out playing night games with all the kids in the neighborhood but then we'd have the sleepover you know so nothing about any of it felt false felt scary it's like you have to imagine you know your sister or brother or somebody in your own family that you trust so much you could never see them doing anything nefarious to your child you know never yeah and then he also planted in their conversations just you know between him and my dad you know and he told my dad that he'd had an aunt that he said oh yeah I was just a little kid when I had sex with my aunt you know and my dad's like what you know but we don't have the words yet we don't I mean we've heard of my parents and we had heard of a child molester but we had no idea what a pedophile was we'd never heard the word and even the FBI agent our dear friend who you know got involved with this case right from the beginning and stayed friends with us all through our lives he said well I think it's having a fixation on a child but I have to go look it up right in the in the manual you know I mean and he was a young new FBI agent he was also about my dad's age you know it's really interesting because you look back and you can see it so clearly yeah but when you're in the middle of it it looks like somebody you already trust yeah they look like they showed up like family they were we were as close to that family as we were to my uncle dick and and who my uncle dick and aunt Carolyn also the twin brother had four boys and then a little girl just like the birch told four boys and then a little girl that came later and in that both of those families we were so close to our cousins you know we almost matched them in age the first oldest three boys and then you know our cousin Kathy came along later and we were taking taking care of her yeah she's just a little girl and so it felt very it felt natural yeah just routine it was just routine yeah it felt like oh this fits they want to go on another outing for on this Saturday up to the American Falls reservoir and take the boat and of course we want to go yeah you know we have pictures and we're all together yeah I mean my parents were there we're all there my father to his credit and didn't know what he was feeling or thinking but about six months before the first kidnapping they had planned a trip to go to Seattle the birch sold and they had invited me to go they said we have room for one more person in the car that's station wagon I think in the car and we're going to go see a play I think it was like no no now that or something like that a musical but it's a professional company and we and I was already a little actress I had started at age seven oh wow yeah I did my first audition when I was seven and I turned eight over by the birthday and I played Gretel in the sound of music and guess who was Maria you know Maria Von Trapp was Elaine Hoffman okay so she played Maria and she came to to the house, I remember it very clearly. and said, "I'm gonna take Jan." And she said, "She has a really good voice. She's sung in church. I think I was singing a song in church. The first time the birch told's came to church." - Oh wow. - I believe that that would have been about the right Sunday. And that he just, that was it. He just looked at me singing that song that little tiny girl. And I think he decided that's the one. But I know there was another girl before me. - So it wasn't well known by anybody in the church or anybody in the neighborhood that he had history. - Yeah, no, oh no. Nobody knew anything. No, nothing like that. All I know is looking back. There was a girl that was about three years older than me went to the same church and that she was the babysitter. And that's kind of the next piece of this story. She would be the babysitter for the birch told's when they would go out like, you know, with my parents or whoever, you know. And at some point, she stopped being their babysitter and now me and Jerry, his oldest son, now we were in charge. A baby seen all the kids and, you know, and there was a time to do when it was mostly fun. I think we were pretty nice, but maybe not. (laughing) - I'll just wait. - You can't get a little power and, you know. - No, you can't do that. - You can't. - Yeah, I'm in charge. - I'm in charge. And I was always an in charge person anyway. Asked my sisters. (laughing) - That's like all the sister. - Yes, exactly. But they would go out and then we were the babysitters. And then this woman, or, you know, girl at the time who would have, when I was nine, she would have been 12, you know. So, and then all of a sudden around age 14, she's done and then we start being the babysitters. Is that her father, who was in leadership in the church, ended up calling my mother. I think my dad maybe had passed, maybe not, 'cause he was older than my dad. But anyway, I just know my mother told me the story of him calling her on his deathbed. And just saying, I want you to know that, you know, I knew a little bit more because he had been disciplined so they would call it disciplined by the church. But it was for something that had happened in a whole different state, like in Star Valley, Utah. You know, we were in Idaho. He said, I knew because there was a little notation, you know, on his church record. You know, there was something there. And my mom never asked him outright, but she said, I believe that you might know because of what happened to your daughter. And he said, something did happen, but then we cut everything off. Because back in that day, nobody, there was, there wasn't really, if something inappropriate happened to his 12 or 13 or 14 year old daughter, mostly if she probably, I doubt she said anything, but if he sent something and then asked her a question and she shut down and, well, she would have felt like it was her fault, right, for one thing. But also that I believe would have been kind of the extent of it, but he said, I knew a little more. I wish I had said more because I watched, 'cause he was right there in our same congregation. I kind of watched this friendship and, but I didn't know, no, I didn't know for sure. But everybody loved him. I mean, for sure, nobody thought, including my parents, no one thought that he would hurt me, you know. He was setting them up to, you know, trust him, like telling him, telling them the darkest things about his life and talked about this aunt. She was only a few years old with me. I was probably six or seven. I don't know, we had sex. And my dad's like, you know, and she was 10 or 11 or whatever. And that was definitely a thing, but my dad felt sorry for him. You know, it wasn't a thing like, he could be this, you know, something's wrong with his victim. And that's the same thing. He's the victim, yeah. Exactly. So that was one of the stories. And then another story that I know he told my dad and I think my mom talked about how he had depression. You know, and really we didn't have a lot of other words. Depression was sort of a catch-all phrase. Yeah, you know, nobody was talking about any of the nuanced, you know, mental health of mental health. Mental health wasn't even a word. We've never put those words together. Yes, that happened when I was like in my 30s, literally. And so, but he talked about having these blues, you know, the blue moods and they call it depression. And I have to go see a specialist in California, Beverly Hills, and he would disappear. And again, everybody, his wife included, I thought he was going there to, and maybe he was. I don't know, right? Maybe he wasn't. I don't need to know. We have no idea if that was true or not true. But he talked about that and that was, you know, some sympathy and, you know, his wife sometimes would say, well, you know, he has these highs and these lows and he's like, 'cause he was so garious, you know? Another thing that he set up. But in the fall, by that first fall of knowing them, he had said to my mom and dad, look, I'm a block and a half up the street. Let me pick up the girls for school. It's on my way. I'll drop all the kids off at school. And then I'll be almost to my furniture store. So you don't have to make that trip and me make the trip too. I'll just do, is that, and we're like, oh, yeah, sure. And so he would come to our back door, literally open the back door, it was never locked. And yell into the house, it's gonna be a great day, bro. And that's girls would be coming running up from the basement where me and Karen had a bedroom and Susan from the back, you know, on the main floor, she had a bedroom was there. And we'd all jump in the car and he'd take us down to school. You know, was that one of the first instances where the main ones where he could get you just alone with your sisters, but away from your parents. - Yeah. - So that's the first little, I'll just drive them. Yeah, he's an uncle at this point. - Yeah, yeah, he is, he's like an uncle in the school. It's no big deal. Your parents are really helpful. He's being helpful. - Yeah, it doesn't seem like a big deal. - Exactly. - That's the first stepping stone. 'Cause I know we get up there and it gets to points where we're having sleepovers and all that, which we'll get to. - Right, but that is, that was like the first little stepping stone. And because then, you know, maybe the, he'd make all of his boys sit in the back and maybe one of us girls and then we, and you know, then I was always, I was always allowed to sit in the front. - Right, you're the oldest girl. - I was the oldest girl. - So I got to sit up there. And so if not, you know, me, scooting to the middle, 'cause we had that. Our cars didn't have a console in the thing. You know, it was just more in the seat. You know, I'd scoot you in and I'm sitting right by him and maybe Karen's right here, you know, maybe Susan, the backseat, 'cause she's the youngest in the grade school. And we're the oldest, you know, I'm getting ready to go into sixth grade and then I go into seventh grade and that's the year that he kidnapped me the first time. And so, you know, fifth and sixth grade off we go, would often turn and say something to me and all the kids have gotten out of the car and he'd say something and you know, tell me how that, you know, try to get a little personal thing. - Yeah. - You know, and looking back, it was just, how is your homework going? Do you need any help with that? - Yeah. - You know, I had allergies. All of us girls had allergies. That was another thing that he did. Oh, how are your allergies today? You know, and just these kinds of things and then he was the one that said, "Oh, I have this allergy specialist in Salt Lake. Let me take the girls. You can come with me, Maryam, but let's get the girls up to this and get the scratch test and get them their allergy medicine." And sure enough, we did that. And sure enough, we had an allergy capsule. Mine was green and yellow. And that's the exact capsule that I took as an allergy pill and the exact one that he emptied and put the sleeping medication in when he was picking me up to go horseback riding. Here's your allergy pill. - And switched it so that I fell into a very deep sleep. - There was a period of time where he was able to sleep in your bed. So that was probably about the year before, about a year before the first kid napping. - Okay. He had told my parents he had all this depression and that he was seen a professional in Beverly Hills 'cause that's the only place that had a therapist for depression or whatever. And definitely we had nobody like that in Pokatello, maybe in Salt Lake, but nothing in our town. And so he told his wife and my parents, all part of the story, I'm going there, I'm speaking with a therapist about this depression thing. So how he framed that was, I now have been told by this therapist, I have to listen to these tapes, you know, you have the big earphones and these tapes and what I have to do is I'm supposed to lay by a person that was the same age and the same sex as the person who I have now told them, this is when my depression started. So he framed it all inside of depression. But now that I think back, it sounds like the ant. If he was five or six, the ant was 10 or 11 and female. And so these times supposed to just, you know, because that's when my depression started. It started because of these experiences that happened with my ant who was only a few years older than me. And I have to listen to the tapes while I'm laying by somebody that's re-framing my, apparently my brain or something. And so the door was open, it wasn't closed. He was not under the covers, he was on top of the bed. So some of those things, that my mom would sometimes walk in with water. She was ironing downstairs and she put things away in my bedroom while he's laying there listening to his tapes You know, and they really did think that he was He was trying and sort of whether that is true that a therapist told him that the only thing that I know is that one of the Talk shows that I was on yeah with a doctor Behind the scenes before the cameras rolled and we were on the stage He told me I said you know these are the parts. This is during 19 after the documentary came out and I was going on all the talk shows and Interviewing constantly and that doctor. He said what are the things that you're what's the feedback been like since this documentary came out and I told him I said they go crazy about my parents like my parents are so stupid because of those tapes and And I've said something else. I can't remember I gave him a couple of examples And I said it's so hard on me because I had such wonderful parents and they weren't stupid They but we didn't have a therapist. I mean, we didn't even call them that we call them counselors Yeah, you know, I said there was no such thing as mental health That weren't just appeared those two words together just appeared like 25 years ago I'm like there was none of that and he said well, you know He said and he was a doctor a cycle therapist kind of doctor and he said That was a therapy There was something whether he made it up and knew that there was a therapy or if he really did see somebody in California that told him to do that But he told me that it was a therapy that they that they thought would Program somebody's brain the the Association something by association and he said It only lasted for maybe two or three years and then it was debunked that it didn't work Oh, it didn't have it. It wasn't effective. Yeah, but he said whether it was for that for depression or whether he knew he had a problem with Little girls young girls and maybe he was talking about that. Maybe it was that maybe he was trying He goes, I don't know, but there was there was a therapy early on in psychotherapy as that was coming into its Getting its legs, you know, yeah in the early 70s because it had only started I mean Late 60s is when any of that started to even you know, be a thing So anyway, so he would multiple nights a week just or night or days Yeah, it was usually you know, it was usually after he'd come down to the house after we were all Girls have been tucked into best you know kind of thing and he would just lay out talking about I never remember him being there I don't even remember I was asleep and so nothing I Don't think anything actually happened to me during that time But it was just one more thing of him trying to get into those just good graces of my parents and being you know Whether he thought it was going to help him yeah with something that nobody really knew about But maybe that therapist did and maybe that was it or if he really was trying to Fix his depression or if it was all just a big scam You know, but that was interesting when that one doctor told me that I never Mm-hmm. I didn't know that that was a thing. He said so a lot of people may not realize that there were lots of experimental things that were done in the early Years of psychotherapy and we continue to make breakthroughs and changes to therapies as we learn more and more and I was so happy He said that and I was like, oh, I never would have known. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah He was never under the cover as the door was never shot and my parents really weren't dumb Yeah, but they also would not have been thinking that Anybody was doing that to a child that was like out of the there was just no possibility There's no realm of stuff. Yeah, there's just not a and I know that it would just happen of course, but yes People never talked about sexual abuse. They talked about physical abuse So what happens in this this year? I'm turning 14 is he gets in touch and says I've got this I bought a fun center. I moved to Jackson, Hawaii. I mean, I want you to come and work for me this summer. Jerry's gonna be there too so I go I call a yellow cab, you know, and Run up the stairs from the basement. Mom's gone to the grocery store. I call the cab right as soon as she's left the house Karen and Susan are like, what are you doing? I'm like I'm going to go work for me I'm going to Jackson Hole where he has the fun center and I'm leaving and tell mom and dad not to come and find me Well, of course that didn't work out so well. Yeah, but anyway, I did leave and I did go to the pokesllo airport On my own on the cuz he had sent me a whole lot of cash and my mother got back from the grocery store and Karen and Susan said Jan laughs she's going to go work for me in the fun center and mom is like totally like completely Karen said she was like she was catatonic like she went into this state got us all in the car and drove like a Maniac to the airport left us sitting in the car while she rushed into the airport. It's a very tiny airport I mean, there's only one gate one thing and yet go outside to get on the little tiny plane and I was standing already had The ticket already was in that doorway when she came in and she goes and she's telling the person. That's my daughter She's not allowed to get on the plane and they're like, what are we supposed to do? She had the money She got a ticket off she goes. I'm already through the security thing that little bit of security I had that back then and I'm already going out the door and I just held up my hand with this big water cash I'm like see ya and I literally walked down and got on the tarmac and got up on the plane and flew to Jackson Hole and then he picked me up there and I was there for maybe, maybe a week, maybe to 10 days. Well, my parents called the police. Okay. Okay. What are we going to do? How are we going to get her back and eventually Basically what the police did is they went and you have got to get that girl home or we're gonna throw you in jail And I don't know if that was true. I don't know if they would have had the Whatever to do so, but he was still awaiting the trial for the I mean the first kid now Yeah, like you said that that I don't know. I'm sure maybe it had been like here's your 15 days because that's gonna happen right after Anyway, I'm not I can't tell you sure about how it went, but anyway, so he he He brought me home and it had been my birthday. I had my 14th birthday and he had given me a sewing machine and My dad was so furious and my dad was sitting there and apparently there was there was a police officer that was kind of out of sight and They were watching Like if he pulls a gun or if anything happens that we could arrest him. We will But he didn't do any of that. He just he just basically Stopped the car got all my birthday presents out. I'd already been to his house with all the kids They'd all wish me happy birthday, and well now Jan's got to go home or to wherever he stopped along that went route I had seen the family in Ogden. I got out my dad's in our car He's in his car and he puts all the stuff out and I leave the car and my dad gets out of the car and He's looking at the pile of stuff and he's looking at me and I'm so mad, you know Ridiculous. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to work make my own money You know, I'm playing the part really really well and My dad it as birch told tore out of the parking lot My dad didn't even get to say two words to him. He was just he was so mad. He's like, where did you get this? I'm like this is my birthday present, you know, no, you just I can't read everything at the back and oh my gosh, and then just drove me, you know, just a Block walk walk away two walks away, you know home and Just didn't know what to do how to and then by the 10th of August I was gone. Yeah again. So that was how that That ended. Yeah with the relationship he had with your mother and your father. Yeah, did that happen first where he Crossed that line with them was that before or was that so it's in two different It's in two different time periods and my dad of course kept it all a secret He didn't say anything the masturbation thing that happened between him and birch told and it was before and I believe it was Probably about six months before because looking back now and knowing the timeline I think that one of those I don't know if there were several I my dad said it was only that was it, you know That happened before the first kidnapping and my dad started to pull away I think he felt, you know, of course he did he felt guilty about that and it was just it was in a car and they'd been out to lunch or dinner or something And you know, he could make you feel like you were 16 17 years old and my dad grew up with a bunch of cousins and a twin brother And always not a big deal just I get nothing for my wife just relieve me It's basically how my dad Robert said that to your dad. Yeah how be said it to my dad and his my mom And and any of us girls we really didn't know exactly what had happened He just said oh, it was just something stupid and I feel terrible about it And I'm going to go talk to the bishop and you know repent and you know That's how he later not at that moment but later in time when we're now young adults and and mom is trying to write the story And I'm talking to her from my college dorm room about what was happening and she's writing everything down and putting it into our book Come first stolen innocence book. So none of us really knew the details of that And my dad, I think carried that guilt and shame and that experience or the maybe it happened two or three times I'd not sure to be honest, but that guilt to the day he died. I think he tried to make up for it. He was always very, you know, faithful and trying to serve and do all the things and he was such a wonderful father, you know, but I think he felt like I should have seen the monster and why would I cover, you know, that just, you know, it really haunted my father. I know that it did. And I talked to him about it and he said, look, he said if people, whatever their opinion is of that mistake that I made, if it makes one person understand that maybe this person that's getting close to you and is trying to, you know, lure you into some sort of sexual behavior, maybe they're really after your kid, he said, I would never have thought that. I felt terrible not what I did. I went and I did my repentance process and I really, you know, but he said, I told, I told her the whole story because I feel like at this point in my life, you know, I don't know, you get older, you know, you're going to die. I should leave all the truth on the table so somebody else might save their child and might see something that I did not see. So that was hard on me. And then with my mom, that short lived affair with him happened in between the two kidnappings. Okay. And people just go out of their minds. They're like, but he kidnapped the daughter. I was like, look, if you understand how much was already set up, yeah, including the alien story and all that that we're going to talk about. All of that was set up long before this kidnapping happened. I mean, the stories and everything. I said, he had stood by my mom in the kitchen waiting for the girls to come running and get in the car for school every day for years, you know, and whispering in her ear, talking to her about, you know, her hopes and dreams and plans and what's wrong and what's right with your marriage. And, you know, how people do getting his claws and getting his claws trying to find out what can I do spots any which were a human, you know, that's exactly right. And she's the person that she is. She's caring. She's and yeah, 100% yeah. And so that all happened previous to anything else happening. So when I was brought back, you know, it takes me. I'm strapped to a bed that alien voice is playing in my ear. I've already seen the papers that he would bring to the house and put on the table while I'm doing my homework, you know, and oh, look, another, another UFO sighting and sure enough, there's a little disc black and white. You know, that's kind of scary, but he would tie it all back into the gathering of Israel. And we know that things are going to be really bad before the second coming of Christ and all these things. Things that maybe you had heard in church, but wasn't really concentrated on. I didn't go to a church that was fire in Brimstone. Fire in Brimstone. No, it wasn't like that. It was pretty much love your neighbor and do a lot of service. And, you know, Heavenly Father loves all of his children. That was pretty much how I grew up. Yeah. But there were those things that, you know, talked about, you know, the coming of days and the end of the world and the second coming in revelations. And, you know, there were parts that that would get talked about by somebody, but it wasn't like I knew anything much about it, except that he would always tie anything that he wanted to plant in my little brain in a way that didn't look like he was trying to do anything. Just so blessed. It was so blessed. And he talked to my mom about it. Yeah. And I'm seeing their listening to what they're saying and looking at the picture and the paper and and thinking, well, it does make sense that there would be life on other planets somewhere out there in the universe to me. You know, he's in and he would tell stories like some of the stories when we were all there, all the kids and mom dad, all of us were there. And one in particular that he talked about was, um, Gail, his wife had grown up on a farm in a really tiny town. And that one day her father saw this big circle kind of cut out of the ground like they used to talk about flying saucers when the crop circles, the crop circles. Yes. And he talked about that. And he said, and you can ask Gail, I mean, her dad said the car never worked the same. That his car went funky and out of control. And there's like light. And then this, this, but there was the next day when it wasn't dark outside. He went back and there was this big circle in the in the crop in the field. And how many told that to all of us? And I remember my dad kind of saying, okay, yeah, don't scare my children. Stop with the nonsense. You know, something like that. But he had already done all those things. And what are we watching on television? I dream of Genie. Be witch. Let's see. What else had that kind of thing lost in space? You know, there were a lot the Jetsons. Yeah. We were watching. That's what we were watching. And it was the race to space. And there was a lot of talk about possibly finding life on other planets and trying to get to the moon. And all, I mean, he just knew how to use whatever was there to twist it in the mind of a 9, 10, 11 year old. Yeah. So when I woke up in the back of this moving motorhome, you know, that's going down the road. It's night. It's dark. And my wrists and my ankles are constrained leather straps. I can't get up. I can't move. I'm I'm all of, I don't know, 70 pounds, 65, 70 pounds at this point. Maybe soaking wet. I mean, I'm tiny. And I can't move except I can kind of pull my upper body up. And there's a curtain in the motorhome. There's a partition. Can't see beyond the, you know, where they're in the back. There's usually a bed. And then there's a little bathroom. I could see that there was something like a bathroom, but I didn't know for sure. But I could lift up my head and move the curtain enough to see that it looked like, look like desert, like a big tall, you know, that it was moving at this. Yeah. And it was moving. It was moving when I woke up. I don't know how long I had been knocked out. And there was a, what looked like kind of like an intercom or something like that. It was, it's a swipe box. I want to find the exact model someday so that I can put that to rest. But but it was there. And it was on the on the little edge of the curtains and the, I don't know, there was a little lip, a little window or maybe it was a little shelf. I don't know, but it was sitting right there. Maybe it was on the back of the pillow. But it was back behind me, but I could kind of see where the sound was coming from. And what I woke up to was this high pitched staccato kind of a female voice. And it kept repeating basically the same script. It would come, it would go over and over the same script. It was like a loop. But it felt like when I first woke up, I didn't even realize that it was a loop. I don't think because it was so terrifying. It was this and they called me female companion, female companion. It was like this high pitched monotone voice. Like anytime there been an alien represented in some television way, kind of that same thing. So you would know. Yeah. That's the only, that's the only reference you would have. That's it. You know, and I immediately, everybody said, well, how long was it before you were brainwashed? I'm like, I don't know 10 seconds. That wall, it was, I mean, it wasn't 10 seconds in my years. Right. It really was. Yeah. And then that was it. I thought I've been kidnapped by a UFO. They've come here to Earth and they've taken me in that, that messaging that went through that loop of calling me female companion. You have a very special mission. We've been watching you since you were born. We have your favorite foods. They're in the cooler. I'd wake up. I'd go back into a deep sleep. Then I'd wake up and the restraints were off. Go get some food. Use the bathroom. I would, you know, and sure enough, there's the tuna fish sandwich and I'll enjoy bar and the fresca. No, not fresca. Squirt. Squirt or the quenches, something like that. And it was all there in the little cooler, in like this little cooling. And I'd eat and then, you know, the instructions were always going to eat and go to the bathroom and lay back down. And sure enough, I would pass out again. Obviously, the food was drugged as well, but I was eating and grateful for that, I guess. And then I'd wake up and I'd be restrained again. And this went on for about I, I think it was about two, maybe two and a half days before they instructed me. This is a point when we, when the motorhome was parked and I have no idea where we are, but I know that I would wake up in the motorhome's moving usually at night. The instructions where we want you to go to the front of the motorhome and there you will meet the male companion. And of course, I'm terrified. I have no idea what that means, but okay. And so get up and the partition is gone. It's been removed. And so I go to the front. the motorhome and there on the little couch is B. You know, like my uncle, my favorite person, you know, made so much fun. It's B. And he's covered in blood and cuts and the whole bit and all over his arm and even on his face and his neck. And he looks dead. I think he's dead. And I'm shaking him and I'm like, you know, B, you have to wake up, you know. And then just all these things come spilling out of my mouth. You're the male companion. I don't know what it means, you know, but you have to, you're, I'm the female companion. I'm telling all of this and we're sitting finally and I'm, you know, bandaging up his wounds and I'll get a towel. And I mean, oh my gosh, he's the best or the worst actor I've ever worked with. I've done a lot with theater and film in my life. And I'm telling you, he had everything down to the detail. You know, and I don't think it's really all that hard to brainwash a person. To be honest, if you isolate someone, you control all their information, their basic necessities, you know, they, they depend on you for food, for water, for all the basic things. And you can take their religious dogma that they've grown up with. You can take that and just bend it a little bit. A person, especially a child, yes, they, they're going to do whatever you tell them to do for not going on, which is exactly what happened. That's exactly how everything else unfolded. Yeah. He acted naive in this moment. Oh, yeah. He acted as if he didn't know what was going on. Oh, yeah. He had a whole story as I woke him up and he wasn't dead and all of that. And oh, my word, Jenny Dolly, he called me Dolly, which he had given all of us a nickname. And we were going out to the ranch, you know, to go horseback riding. Because this was the lead up, that's the lead up to this story. So he had invited me to go horseback riding. And of course, you know, mom and dad knew and everything seemed copacetic, except that it was a school night. Okay. And he had to go out and measure a wall or do something because he had furniture for this, you know, and they have a ranch. And I'd been there before. I believe, I think it was the same place that he was talking about, not that he was, that was his plan. But I have to go out there and measure some stuff. And so Jan's getting really good on the horse. And I know Bob can't go because he's so definitely allergic to horses. And I can just pick her up after her piano lesson. And I'll just take her out there and I'll have her home before dinner. Bob doesn't even have to know because my mom was like, no, she can't go with the school night. And my dad, about six months earlier, because that's when I believe that that sexual encounter, that masturbation encounter thing had happened. And I think my dad started to just pull away probably because he felt guilty and felt bad about all of that. And also, I think he was seeing more clearly, like maybe this guy isn't quite so good for us to spend all this time. You know, we've hardly seen the Hoffman's. We barely spent any time with my, you know, our cousins, my dad's twin brother and his family. And we're close. You know, these are people we're close to already before they ever come. And I think my dad just had that feeling, like, this is too much. He had had that feeling. I know in that summer that because the trip that they had asked me to go on, my, my dad was so against it. And then while we're not, more, we're not just not going to go, we've already bought the tickets for the play. And I know Jan would do that. You mean she's a marvelous actress. We've seen her now as Oliver. Then next big play I did was I played Oliver in Oliver. And you know, she made everybody cry when she sang "Where is love?" We all cried in the audience, you know. And you're just denying her this wonderful experience. And now my, on none of my kids, I'm not going to take any of them. We're not going to go. Just guilted my dad. And he was like, I really don't want her to go. But if you're not going to take the family because you have to have Jan see this play along with, okay, you know, my, my mom really is the one that convinced dad to just let me go let her go. So in on that trip, which was a really, it really was a fun trip. I'd never been to Seattle before, saw the play. It was so amazing. I knew that's what I wanted to do. You know, it was all that. But at one of the restaurants early on, well in the car on the trip, first of all, I don't know if he on purpose had poked a hole where the carbon monoxide that from your engine, there's a, anyway, I loved to be by a heater. Like I would spend hours by my, my, my mom and dad's bedroom. There was a heater on the wall. And, and it was, and then the dresser was right there. So I could create this like fort. I put the, I put the blanket, this poofy pink blanket that we had that was, you know, lightweight. And I put it in the drawer and shut the drawer. And then I could get it over behind the pillow where I was laying there with all my stack of books from the library. Any time we went anywhere with him, even on school days sometimes, I would shrink down from the seat and sit by the heater in the car. So I believe what happened is that it probably, I was probably in the front, front seat between his wife and him. And I probably scrunched down and got really close to the heater. And I, I don't know, maybe he drugged the food that I ate at the restaurant. I don't know. But we had stopped to eat and had a place to stay because the drive is a long way. We, you know, took a couple days to get to Seattle. And, and I just passed out on the table. Basically, I just, you know, so however it happened, because also, now, now I know this is that one of the other boys, one of the littler boys also kind of passed out. And was like head on the table at the restaurant and totally asleep. And he said, well, let me, let me take, well, I'll take, I think it was Joey. I'll take Joey and Jan back to the room. You guys finish eating and then, you know, blah, blah, blah, because obviously they're exhausted. You know, I'm not sure how we were so exhausted, but so exhausted that we were out. And we went back and he took us to the hotel. What I remember is this, this, this image of a naked, a naked person. And man, it was definitely a man, I remember an image. And that's, that's all I could remember for years and years. And then later, when I was doing some, you know, some work on my healing and going through various experiences, then I remembered for sure the face was birched old. And for sure it was him having put me in a bed at the hotel room and him had been laying by me and had gotten up and stood up because somebody had knocked on the door. He took all the keys. So they had to knock when the rest of the family got there. They didn't have a key. And, and, and him, you know, putting close on. And then going to the door. And then Joey, I don't know, or whoever the other, there was another kid in a different, in a different bed that was totally passed out also. And I remembered more, you know, but it took me getting to that point when I could take that implicit memory and, and make it more explicit that for sure it was him. So anyway, that was one of the experiences. And then up in Seattle, going to the show and how, and how he let, I think he let Jerry like he let us drive like in a parking lot. And then he let me drive, but I, but I was too short. And I know that was had to have been within that six, that six months before he took me that my dad had kind of put his foot down like we're spending too much time. Yeah. We need to, you know, pull back. This is too much, you know, because it was two and three times a week that we did stuff with them. You know, it was a lot. Yeah, hundreds of activities. Yeah. That event happened. So that's the first time you went away with them alone without your family. Well, without anybody in my family or where I was just with his family, or just the only trip. We could isolate you in that circumstance. But there was another time that I ended up going up to Salt Lake with him to pick up some furniture. He had hired me. You know, my first little job was dusting the furniture at the furniture store. And so my mom would drop me off to do my little dusting job. And he'd pay me my dollar an hour. It was 50 cents. I don't know. And then she'd go run errands or whatever. And then she'd come back and get me in, you know, take me home. And I remember, I remember him always want, when nobody was kind of in the store, him wanting to play games like he you know, tore me around like on an office chair that had wheels, you know, and he'd, you know, almost like play hide and seek. And just, you know, like he was a kid like me. Yeah. And not thinking anything of it at the time. He was just super fun. But you'd look back on it and you're like, oh, these are all the classic signs of somebody grooming your child, you know, but nobody was there. You know, it's just me and him. And he had an employee that I remember the reading in one of the police reports. And one of the employees at that furniture store that he owned had said, you know, there were times where I thought he's acting like he's 10 years old, you know, and playing games with this, you know, 10-year-old or 11-year-old, you know, that's around dusting and it always made me feel uncomfortable. You know, but nobody, who do you tell? What do you, what do you say? You don't even know, you don't even know what a petafile is or never heard that we're grooming, you know, whenever everybody's like, in fact, I meet people all the time. They're like, grooming. What do you mean? Like dog grooming or grooming yourself? I'm like, you know, grooming people, brainwashing people in a six stages of grooming, you know, and we teach that. Now we go and teach those things to people. Yeah. There's, it's interesting when you look back and you see the number of people that had, you know, that funny feeling or like, yeah, I never really wanted him around my kids or even around me. He was just too much all the time, you know. All the pieces, unfortunately, fit together and make sense looking back at it. But when you're sitting here and explaining, well, this happened and then this happened and then this happened because this happened. And it's just such an unfortunate, just amount of events that led up to something that could really happen to anybody. Yes. And it's a lot of people failing you, but not knowing that they're failing you. Right. A lot of people that should have spoken up. Yeah. And hopefully people that watch this can be like, Oh, okay. Well, it's better to say something not to say something. Yeah. He's acting a little weird or she's acting. Yeah. If you see something or you feel something, yeah, burst told specifically has so many of the same hallmarks as a cult leader. Yes. It does. Everybody loved him. He was so service oriented. He was always helping somebody, you know, given them a great deal on their furniture, you know, handyman. I mean, he was, he set himself up so that people would defend him in the long run and people are doing that still to this day. And he's dead. And I'm not the only little girl. Yeah. I've met one other who was after me. And I know the names of, I've actually met two that were after me. And I have three other names of girls in police reports that I know after me. And I have two before me at their names. Plus the one that I think I know who it was in Polka Tello. So, you know, this is a serial you know, serial predator, whatever the right terminology is serial pedophile. But he's a criminal. Yeah. And anybody that does things like this to a child is a criminal. And so as hard as it is to say that about grandpa or about your own father or mother or grandmother, those are the four most, those four people are responsible for 74 or 75% of all abuse of children. Then after that, uncles, aunts, siblings, cousins, step-parent parents, when you had abducted the first time. Yes. And you were supposed to go horseback riding with Robert. Yeah. And then your dad was feeling a certain way about it. And then he was so Robert was saying, don't tell dad about it. Yeah. And your mom was saying, it's fine. Just go. Yeah. Basically, he talked her into it. And she said, okay, Bob's going to be mad. But okay, just go just make sure you're back before dinner before dad gets home from the flower shop. You know, he had pretty long days. That's a it's a hard that's a pretty hard business. It seems all smells and roses. He worked. He worked hard. It was a good 10-hour day, mostly. You know, he was there before eight. And usually home maybe it around six. So it was a good we all love to be in at the flower shop though. And it makes me sad that my dad had so much just pain. And he just didn't deserve it. I just can't imagine having a child co-missing and not knowing where they are. And those first about 72 hours when we didn't get back from horseback riding immediately, what are they thinking? That he kidnapped me and haven't always our best friend. They're thinking, do they get the car accident? Right. Did he go on one of his tangents and just take Jan? Maybe he just took her down to Salt Lake or maybe he went up to Brickham City to get some thing. You know, he had relatives and people and he would do sort of those things. He'd do little disappearing acts. You know, maybe he's, you know, but but they certainly didn't think this man has kidnapped our daughter. So this was on, I think it was Thursday. I think this was on a Thursday. I think my piano lessons were on Thursdays. If not, it was Wednesday. It was one of those. It wasn't Friday yet. And so when we didn't get back, you know, they're calling Gale, you know, from your phone on the wall. Have you heard from Bob, you know, what they're not back? You know, now it's seven. Now it's eight. Now it's 10. No, I'll come down. So then Gale comes to the house and of course, I don't know anything except that I've been kidnapped by aliens. That's all I know is that that's where I'm at, you know, and I'm and I'm barely 12. I just had my 12th birthday. This is in the fall. So I'm about 12 and two or three months old. And very, I'm a, I'm a, I'm innocent. And I'm pretty naive, but I'm not stupid. I've done lots of plays by this time. I'm very much a people pleaser, which is also something to watch out for if your child is that I wanted to be with the adult. I wanted to converse with them. I wanted to be in the next show. And, you know, I, I, yeah, it's interesting because people think it's only vulnerable children like it's a single mom and now she has to work a lot and the child's a turnkey kid. And they think that that's that and it's just not like that, especially with abuse. Now, maybe with kidnapping, I don't know, but I'm just saying in the world of abuse, it has no, no box. There's no box. There's no box. It fits in. Yeah. They'll fit you into that box. Yeah. They know how to make it all work in their favor. And then you're gone. And then everybody's like, they're in an accident. Something's happened. And then Gail is wife is like, Oh, please don't call the police. You know, you know, how Bob is, you know, how he can do, how he just, you know, he just, that's his wife. Yeah, that's not okay. Yeah. So she's down at the house, you know, kind of in her pajamas and robe and, you know, like, we're so close to these families. He would never, you know, I mean, something had to have happened. You know, or he went off his little depression thing and maybe he went to a relatives. So anyway, okay, well, you know, okay, I guess we'll all go to bed and we'll wait till morning. And then here comes the morning. And dad hasn't slept all night. Mom's not slept all night either. And they're worried. And so they call Gail and they're like, we have to call. We have to call somebody. We need something's wrong. Please don't. But they said, well, I'm sorry, Gail. We're going to call. So my mom's sister in her husband, my uncle in law, uncle in law's family had somebody that worked for the police department in that American Falls area. And so they called, they called Uncle Leonard. And they, he called that person that they he knew in the police department and gave them the story. And has there been any reports? No, no reports. No car wrecks, no nothing. And he was like, well, did they check going like off the side of the road? Because there's a lot of, you know, Idaho's hilly and there's ditches and there's, you know, well, no, we haven't done that. But I'll tell them, you know, that maybe we need to do a wider search now that we've heard this, that they're missing. Okay. And give us a few hours, you know, whatever. So they go through part of that day and waiting and still, you know, no news and no nothing. And pretty soon, mom and dad, by that evening, which I believe late late afternoon, it was I think a Friday. And they're like, okay, now they've called back from the police that they've done a wider search, but they don't think they haven't seen anything. They can't find any broken down cars or anything like that at that point. Okay, we got to call the FBI and how they thought to do that. I have no idea because that's not like a part of our lives, either, really, truly. And I mean, my parents had never stepped foot into a court room, right? They don't know anything except maybe, maybe they had a speeding ticket once. I don't know. Yeah, but when you're totally naive to the ways of the law and however, so my mom looks up in though yellow pages and it says that the hotel has this regional office of the FBI and she calls nobody answers. It's the weekend. If there's a real emergency call, this number and I think it was Montana, you know, or something, Wyoming or Montana, it was somewhere else, some other state. And that's your closest, you know. So they, okay, well, let's just wait and see if there's more news. So now that night goes by and they're like, we'll be back in the office on Monday. It's basically what they're recording or it's had some kind of a recording. Okay, well, they'll be back on Monday. Oh my gosh. What are we going to do for two days? You know, surely they'll get back and we'll find them. Anyway, what ends up happening is they call the other office by the next day and they're like, okay, now tell us all the details of everything you know about this person. And they're like, well, he's one of our closest friends and he has a wife and five children and and he owns a furniture store and he was going out to measure some, some, you know, for some furniture replacement at a home and they have horses and he was taking our daughter horseback riding. He was taking your daughter horseback riding. Tell us about that. Well, Jan loves horses, but I'm allergic. That's my dad. And you know, my, my wife, I didn't want her to go, but you know, we've caved in. Let her go because she loves it. She was begging. And so we're just worried that maybe they've been in a car accident, but we can't find any evidence of a car accident. Okay. Okay, we're going to assign somebody to this and you'll, you'll hear from them shortly. So then another day goes by and then the next morning, whether that was Sunday or Monday morning, here comes our FBI agent who was the dear friend and they come in the house and they get all the reports of everything and then they, I don't know what kind of a search they did, but that was the very first thing that happened is they found his car down, not just in a little ditch, but down like a, almost like a place where you can drive down to see a reservoir because everyone's assuming he took the car to take you. Yeah. In reality, he took an RV in reality. He took an RV. Right. And so by the time that they found the car with the broken window and, you know, shattered glass and some blood on that window, wasn't my blood, but it was his, then they all got really concerned. So he took you in the car at first, yeah, horseback riding, right, drugged you with the allergy pill. Yeah. And you black out and then he switches, he destroys his own car, meets up where the RV is. Yeah. And then takes you in the RV. Right. Okay. Yeah. So he's put me in the RV and we're gone. So as they do a further investigation, they're like, we see these tire tracks that are not a car size or thinking maybe there was a motorhome of some sort, some kind of RV. That's sort of one of the first pieces of evidence that they are like, okay, you could have switched cars, there's more than one set of tire tracks. Yeah. And anyway, so there was that. And then I can't remember if it was after mom and dad told Gail that that's what they had seen that she said to mom and dad, well, I wasn't supposed to see this and you know, didn't want to tell them, but you know, of course, because now she's worried. But she said, I drove past, you know, where there's those storage units, those great big storage units kind of close to the, to the store. I was looking for him. He was gone. He had gone. He said he was working late. So I went down because I was going to take him something to eat. And I think she said something like this. I remember my mom telling me and I was taking him something to the store, but he wasn't at the store. And so she said, so I got thinking, well, where could he be? And we have a storage unit. And so I went over there and it was close. And I went over to the storage unit and I saw him inside of a different unit and there was an RV. So he, he acquired the RV and she did. No, she said, I thought he was, I thought he was, maybe he was going to be a present, a surprise for Christmas that he was working on it because he was down underneath it. He was probably wiring the thing with the, anyway, she said, I saw him down and he didn't see me. And I left, you know, thinking, oh, it was, you know, just down from where we have a storage unit. I wasn't in the RV before. She had seen this like before all of this happened, but she, whether she was hoping it wasn't related or whether she really just didn't think of it until that tire tracks, I don't know. I have never been able to get her to talk to me. I wish she would. It would help so many other women. Yeah, just, I mean, I was going to ask if she was aware at all. I think she, I think she could have been. I, I never wanted to say that or admit that until later. Yeah. I mean, much later, like literally like in the last like four years that happened before all of this. We were having to sleep over on the trampoline and I remembered one piece of this, but I didn't remember the whole thing until much later. Again, in my own healing journey and my own narrative therapy and my own, you know, I want to feel better, I want to do better, I want to have better. That's what I tell people. Do you want to have better? Do you want to do better? Do you want to, do you want to be free of what, how this is running your life and you don't even know? Come, come, come survivor. Come over here. Be loved and be, and be better and get, get this healing journey on its way. And I was doing some work like that. And what I remembered about this night where all of us kids were sleeping on the trampoline. What I had, the only thing that I had remembered was that I had gone in the house crying. And this is before the first kid, nothing. I had gone in the house crying. And Gail woke up from the bedroom and came, came out, heard me crying. And she said, "Oh, Jenny, what's wrong?" You know? And I said, "Well, I don't know. I'm all twisted up, you know, my, and because my panties were not where they were supposed to be." And my had some kind of pajamas, nightgown, something on. And this summer day, it's hot hot. We sleep, you know, I mean, not it's hot and warm, but we're all in sleeping bags. The only part of that experience that I have remembered up until that time was her coming and getting me and telling and saying, "Well, you come on in and you sleep with me in here in, in my bed, in the master bedroom." And that's all I remembered at that experience until I had another something that I was working on and all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, I do remember that birch told was on the trampoline. I don't remember him being inside my sleeping bag. I remember him being out there because he had told all the kids, I'm going to tell you some scary stories and then you go to sleep and then I'll go inside. But I remember when I woke up, I saw him there. And then I just, I just went inside, you know, I just went in. And after I was in and she had told me to come sleep with her, we're standing out kind of in the living room, right off the little hallway to the bedroom. I had a step down. And so I remembered at this point, I remembered him coming to the door and coming in, he said, "I got up to go to the bathroom and I'm looking out the window because, you know, their master bedroom could see the backyard and the trampoline." And he said, "I could see Jan was down there just twisting and turning and kind of kicked her sleeping bag off, so I went down there to pull the sleeping bag over her." And the part that really got me that I remembered is I looked at him and then I looked at her and the look on her face. There was a look on her face that when I saw it as an adult, when it came to me that explicit, implicit memory became explicit, I could see her face and I recognized that look as an adult woman, like she was looking at him like potentially again. Yeah, because again? Already. Yes, because they don't move several times. She knew about it and I'm assuming I'm at least a part of something. And I had never, I had never given her one ounce of that she might have known something. She may not have ever seen anything, but for sure, they had moved several times before they ended up in Pocatello. And of course, she's a stay-at-home mom. No training to have a career. What do people do? I mean, they literally don't, they don't know what to do. What will I do? Yeah, I mean, it's not common today. And I'm not saying, I mean, obviously we can't say anything because we don't know for sure, but it is not uncommon for a wife specifically to stay in a relationship like that, which is extraordinarily sad. It is for the child. Yeah. And I have had several on my podcast who have talked about that. Yeah. So there might have been something there when you first got abducted where she maybe, maybe, like there was just a, well, I don't want him to get caught in something. Yeah. be happening right that could be something that was happening yeah because it's because it again it's just from looking from the outside in it's like that's so odd why she wouldn't want to know where her husband is with a little kid or yeah or you know and I mean obviously steps were taken within the 24 hours yeah and nobody knows about the you know kids need to be found hopefully in the first 48 all that kind of stuff amber alerts aren't a thing no so that experience happened before sure the kidnapping so now back to the motorhome so so now everybody goes down apparently they get them they get the door open and there's no motor home that was the beginning of the real search and the beginning of you know and he was by that time that would have been three about three days about 72 hours has gone by and he has just barely crossed me as his son he had clothing for me to put on I found him cried we have to do this thing you're the male companion I don't know what this even means I have no idea that he's gonna now you know me repeatedly for years but but you know that's what it is and we have to do what they say you know because if we don't then you know the story was that um I think this is interesting too so I know I keep going off on stand so because I get all the time in the world with you it's okay yeah this story is so interesting because how he took the the religious background of me you know my Christian religious background and took parts and pieces of that to make this all make sense to this little brain because we fill in the gaps that's what we do of course our brains do that and so you know when he says well what did they say like what why would they call you a female companion I said well they said that my mother is my real mother my biological mother we would say today instead of real mother but I said my real mother and you know my mother's name is Mary okay mother Mary yeah because my mother's name is church yep grew up in the church Mary but my father isn't my father my father is like Joseph he's a caretaker he's supposed to take care of me and he's taking good care of me because my mother was overshadowed by a being from that this other planet like the god being the you know that being and that's how my mother had me and now I'm supposed to I'm half alien and half human and I am supposed to save this alien planet they're dying they can't have children they're they're having all these issues I mean I think of all the different science fiction stories I've heard you know throughout my life and I'm like this was a good one you know especially for me and a guilt that's on you this is like I'm in I have to save a planet yeah like all these lives it's this huge way and I and I take my and I take my world seriously and my responsibility I was a very responsible child and I'm like so we have to do whatever they say so that we can save the planet I'm gonna have the child's gonna save their planet like Jesus yeah okay so I'm in the middle of a Mary Joseph and Jesus sorry and apparently you're the male companion I don't know that that those next pieces are going to be as they were but that's what I would tell him he didn't have to tell me the story I mean it's just amazing what yeah what your mind will make up so you can survive or so you can make sense of something which is why we need critical thinking really bad yeah right now yeah in 2026 when there's evidence you've got to believe it you don't just shy away from the truth because it's too ugly or it's too hard or we died just well I can't deal with it so I just won't believe it yeah absolutely absolutely yes he didn't even need to put the pieces together because they were all there already because it's been years even before he came around yeah you grew up in the church that's the main story yep basically it is you know that's the story story yeah for a little girl this all these alien little seeds that he put and then that's you so you wake up with him yep you're in the RV together and then you're traveling to Mexico Mexico and so the first thing that he did when we got to that before we got to the border there is he dressed me up and he had clothes and he had a birth certificate of his son and I he said do you just sit right there and just with the ball cap on and the the what he had me in he goes you know I'll just this is my son here's the you know blah blah blah and that's how we that's how we got across the border into Mexico and the FBI hasn't even shown up yet right so out of the country we're out of the country already and in 1974 that was pretty complicated yeah absolutely and on a lot of levels so anyway that's how that all unfolded I think the the interesting part now as we get into Mexico he has this amazing way of you know charming whoever was in the you know the RV park you know we park in different cities and be there for days or you know it must have long we were there for a long time it seems like I remember just thinking oh this just feels normal you know it was like just those few things that they had no idea what was going on I thought he was my father that was the story he made sure that you know in the tapes the alien tapes and all the stuff that they were saying just this is we tell people this is the father even though he's your male companion he had things in the motor home like oh like they told me to get these books that they they put they the aliens put these books here in the motor home and he'd get out the books and it'd be like you know something about sex and 101 positions or something like that literally some some of those early books I think I heard this in another interview but to acquire that RV did he sell his business okay so yeah he was planning on just running away with you forever yeah and not only did he sell his business nobody knew he had sold his business so here's his poor wife and part of the deal in that business which I learned about all this much later like didn't the last I don't know 10 years probably and he had made a deal with the guy that was buying his business the guy had the motor home and that became part of the deal and that's how he acquired the motor home and his wife had no idea that he'd sold the business wow but was she gonna do what a monster yeah just build up the family and to take away your childhood and so many other girls childhood and just to be a little shut off like that it's just not really is it's really something it's a it's a it's a it's a very interesting thing you wonder because he talked about being he had to sleep outside in the barn and it was cold with his one brother because whether it was a step father or something like that but there were all these things that he talked about about his own childhood to my parents never to me but I've read about all those things in the various things and you're like well maybe something really bad did happen to him you know with that the aunt and you know not that that gives a person licensed to harm another child but it gives you understanding and it makes you want to heal all the layers you know all the generations all the things that intergenerational trauma does you want to be the one that's gonna that's gonna break the chain absolutely in your story or your life in your children and grandchildren and yet it's very hard most a lot of my trauma showed up through those early years of getting married and divorced and and it traumatized my son yeah he's had his own story you know that he's gonna tell someday and and his addiction was was the symptom of trauma losing a father losing a father figure losing a step sisters one who literally died and then that that was a good marriage and those were our best years and he had four step sisters and then and then we ended up divorced again and it wasn't it was very traumatic when she died he was 16 she was 18 and she was his best friend too had all the cute friends and and his life is just now going so well and he's helped me with so many things you know that I wouldn't be doing a podcast another book you know a foundation a program within that you know within the foundation is really based on his experience in recovery that was kind of a that pressure of having the entire world of another planet on my shoulders was also very motivating for me to do whatever I had to do because I took it seriously and by the time I was found that first time and all the variety of experiences from you know trying to get through the sexual assault part that had to happen if I'm gonna have the child but I would just look up at the the little leaves you know through the little vent fan thing and try to count the leaves and just try to go somewhere else. And it's interesting how much you can survive, I guess, how we're built to survive, for sure, absolutely. But if you're stuck in survival mode, it's going to make you sick and eventually, in some way or another. So, yeah, that was something, those days and moving around and having kind of a, you know, a smattering of fun and going to the, you know, the cantina and having the Shirley Temple. And yet probably it was spiked because pretty soon the square black and white squares on the ground looked like they were coming up. And I was trying to dance. And I'm like, oh, I think I'm on the floor, you know, and I'm this 12-year-old, this little shrimpie tiny, 12-year-old was her dad. And I just look back on all those experiences now. And I think I don't know, I don't know that every, you know, sexual predator is as calculating or as sophisticated or it plans it, like he did. But he was, you know, I hate to call him smart, but he was, you know, actually, I mean, it sounds like it was in immense years of planning, which is terrifying. It was. Absolutely terrifying. I mean, he literally, so that when I got found, when I was found, and that was a scary experience, we're in the motorhome. All of a sudden, the door. The length of time is this now. This was the first one. The first one was about, I think it was about 45 days. 45 days? And it's just kind of repeat this. Yeah, maybe 45 or somewhere, 47, maybe, for a couple days as well. I can't remember. But it's right in that time period. Because now that was in October. It was my mother's birthday is October 16th. And I believe that he had said to her because it was written on a calendar that we found going out for milkshakes this weekend for mom's birthday. And that was with the mershals. We were all going to go for milkshakes for mom's birthday. And it was on a Tuesday or Wednesday. And that was coming up on the weekend. And he caught kidnap me right there, 17th, 18th right there after her birthday. So we're asleep. It's the middle of the night, and all of a sudden pounding on the little motorhome, you know, door. And pretty soon before, really, either of us got to the door. They had kicked the door open. And here came in the federalis. And basically grabbed him and called him by name, you know, with an accent. And, and of course, I was terrified and put him in the back seat of this kind of little, almost like a little mini bus kind of thing. It was like a, anyway, I was police car vehicle. But he was in the back seat in the middle. I could see him because I was put in the front seat in between two other officers. And I could see his eyes in the rear view mirror. I could see him looking at me and, you know, kind of like going over the rules, you know, in his eyes. I could see him, you know, and the rules were, don't tell anybody about what's happened and about them. And then to make matters even more interesting in the story, they take us all to this, you know, to one of those very typical, what you see in the movies, like a courtyard type of prison. So it's got a big courtyard in the middle and then there's, you know, prison cells around and there's an office. And they put me in this little room, very small little room with one chair. That was always in there. And at the time, I didn't speak Spanish. I do now. But at the time, I was just totally in the dark and not knowing that word was getting back to my parents that we think we found her. We found him, you know, in Mexico, not knowing any of that was happening. And about, I don't know how long, maybe maybe 12 hours had gone by because now it's like late afternoon, like the next day. So maybe more like 16 hours had gone by because this was definitely after midnight. So anyways, getting 4 or 5 o'clock, I think in the afternoon because I remember I was really, really hungry and I hadn't eaten anything. And all of a sudden they come in and they're like, come with us, you know, they're trying to be nice. I'm sure, but I'm so scared where are they taking me and they take me down into where he was in a cell. And this one guard, I guess, is the guard, let him talk to me for just a couple of minutes. And I was outside the cell, but I was, you know, standing there and it was, you know, it was dark and it was mushy and there was a water kind of trickling down the walls. It was really scary for me. And he basically went over the rules. The rules are, you don't talk about the relaxing, sleeping medication. You don't talk about trying to have a baby. You don't talk about them. And fourth rule was, there were four rules. We'll talk about them. Oh, and you can't have any relationships with any other male companions, including your dad or boys at school. You have to cut all those off because I'm the only one that you can have any relationship with. So just isolating you further. Yeah. Just isolating me further making sure I remembered the rules. Because if we don't follow the rules, then we'll be vaporized. Okay. That was, there was, yeah. And there were other, there were other things that kind of went along with that, like throughout this 45 days, like, well, if you can't complete the mission, then Susan, my little sister, then she'll be taken. Oh, wow. Or if you break one of the rules, Karen, my middle sister, she'll go blind, you know, and for whatever reason her eyes were always a really important thing for her, you know, and he just, he just knew what things I guess to put in there. And it wasn't coming from him. Of course, it was coming from the aliens. And that if I had a relationship with my dad, he would be removed, which I knew meant he would be killed. And so, you know, all of a sudden you're, you're trying to save a whole planet and you're trying to protect all the people you love most in your family, you know. So I get back into the room. I'm still hungry. Now it's getting, you know, into the early evening. And I still haven't anything to drink or eat. And then one of those really sweet experiences, which is again, why I can say no matter what your religious beliefs are or are not, I don't care. It's fine. It's all good kind of thing. But this was a really cool experience because the network inside of the LDS church is so, is so well connected that about eight o'clock at night, maybe it was still light outside. But it was probably about that time. And all of a sudden there were two Mormon missionaries that came to the jail with a bag from McDonald's. Oh, because they're already in Mexico because they're already, yeah, they're right. But they've been their area. Yeah, where they were doing missionary work. And somehow they got to know the right people and they were like, take the girl something to eat. I don't even know how they knew I was hungry. But I guess they probably knew that there's not much of food in a person. And so they brought that in a milkshake, a strawberry milkshake. And I just remember being so happy. I'm so hungry. And it was a few little things like that that would happen that I do think the impact of just something small that happens along your way. It saves you in some way. There's something about it that somehow you could keep going. And then by the next, the next morning, midday of the next day. And again, I just sat in that same little room on a chair all night. And I just put my feet up on the chair because there were some little tiny holes in the baseboards. And the little mice would come out and run around the perimeter of the room. And then go back and just, you know, I just was, I couldn't, I didn't know what they were saying. I knew I had had something to eat. And I hoped that they would come back. And I told them to please come back. And they said, they were the ones that told me they said, your parents know where you are. And they're trying to, they're telling me to get you. Oh, so they came to Mexico to come get in. And my parents thought on a plane and flew to Mexico. Okay. So you are rescue. Yes. Yes. Your parents see you and you go back home. What, what happened after? Well, the reunion with my parents was, you know, kind of like a movie, you know, the excitement of seeing them. I was, I was so excited to see them and hugging my mom, but kind of avoiding hugging my dad. But he put his arms around both of us. And then my whole thing was, well, what about me? We have to get out of here. Yes, to come home. I mean, that's how that all went. But eventually, they said, well, we can't do that. We can't do it right now. We've got to take you home. And then we'll, we'll see if we can get him back home. And, and of course, any question of, did he hurt you? No, you know, did he touch you? No, gross. I, you know, I was the perfect, I was the perfect cover for him. But because I really I did believe I was being watched again, like the aliens could see me all the time. And so by the time I got home, and of course it was again, my, I think my uncle Dick, dad's twin brother had picked up Karen and Susan and had taken them to the airport in Salt Lake, where the plane from Mexico was coming. And it was, it was even more dramatic that our little movie on our nine parts surface on peacock. It was like literally screaming from two ends of a pretty large airport even at that time. In Salt Lake and just them seeing me. Johnny, I'm screaming. And that was, I could cry about that. That was a really sweet reunion with my two little sisters. Things that I didn't know about then that I know now, the school had a huge assembly. It was the junior high school. I was supposed to be the drill team leader and my good friend. She had to take over the drill team 'cause I was missing and I didn't go back to school until until January. But they had a big assembly. Don't bother the brober girl. And, you know, so I felt even more like an alien at school. 'Cause nobody talked to me. You know, and I was trying to be the drill team leader again. And I just, I looked back on how well I played the part. Like everything was okay. And that's what kids do. - Yeah. - You know, they figure out how to, they wanna fit in with Robert, what happened to him? - No, he's now been detained in Mexico for a number of weeks. Then they finally get him back. And he's now in jail at the Impocatala, down at the jail, which is right across the street from where the library was that we go riding our bikes to get the books. And how long was he in prison? And what was sentencing? - People, I think, often get the idea that, oh, well, good, he's in your Pocatala jail. That's it. - Oh, they posted bail. He got out. But before he got out, I remember taking on my bike 'cause I don't drive, I'm just, well, years old, taking my bike to go to the library, but going to the jail and dropping off a basket of little goodies for him, you know, and a little note for me. And so many of these notes and the little things that he somehow got to me, like these little, almost like those little precious moments, characters, but they were from the '70s. I don't think it was that, but they were like that. And these little books that they would have, and he would find a way to sign it, and somehow get it to somebody that was getting out of jail or something, and then somebody would hand it to me on the school grounds. - Oh, that I didn't even know, but they knew who I was. But it was very interesting how much he kept in touch with me, and the contact was pretty consistent. Even after he was out, and then where did I see him next? He was really in church with his family, of course. - Wow, and your parents were all still in Pocotello. My mom and dad, especially my dad, was like, we're not doing anything. Even though he said I had a depressive event, and I just kept driving, we'd stop to see the horses. I did my thing in measuring, and I don't remember any of that. I don't think that's true, but he had done those things, and then I just started going the wrong way, and I was in this deep depression, and I just kept driving, and now all of a sudden I'm at the border of Mexico, and I just thought, oh, who cares? I'm just going in here, and then you guys called the FBI. Now I can't come home. I had to keep running because you know what they would have done. They would have thrown me in jail for the rest of my life. - So they blamed them? - Yeah, so he had all the story to blame that my parents had a big story about him and his depression, and that he would have come back, but then they called the FBI. Now what am I supposed to do? Anyway, and then all the while, playing the part of the male companion with me, and getting letters to me and little books, all these things that I would get from, mostly at school. - Right. - So that's all how he's in contact, plus him and his wife, and his family are sitting in church. However many Sundays later, after he's processed through the jail, and there's bail, and he gets out. And so I'm seeing him, and so I'm making sure I'm not sitting or touching my dad, and you know, I'm just not talking to any of the boys, even his own boys, I'm friendly, but you know, I'm trying to follow all the rules, right? And everybody's kind of like, what's wrong with Jan, you know, but she's just, but in reality, the way things go, he comes back, I've already been interviewed and said, no, he didn't do anything, we just went on vacation. He said that it was okay with you guys that we could go on a vacation, and I was fun, and I said nothing, because I didn't want anything bad to happen to my family or to myself or to him, you know, and I truly believed this, that I am now in this, you know, very important mission, you know, it's like being a missionary, like I have a mission to save a dying planet. I'm in it with him, that's the way it is, and I know that he loves me and cares about me, and you know, kind of like, this is how it has to be. - Yeah. - And so I'm living that reality silently, 'cause nobody, I told no one, not my best friend, not my sisters, not my parents. Nobody has any idea that he has, you know, even going to the doctor, and today court ordered it, I had to be checked out, the whole thing, you know, of course, I've never had any kind of a, you know, female exam before, and I'm still a very, very small, child body, but I basically just got through that, and the doctor said, "Well, we can't find any damage," and it looks like the hyphen is still intact. I mean, I hope I can be graphic. - Yeah, no, you're not, it's fine. - And I was like, of course not, you know, I was very, I was very good at playing the part, because I really was afraid that they would take Susan, that if I messed up, and that was a big motivator, and also because I felt a very strong sense of purpose, like, you know, that was just who I was as even a kid, you know, I was the little girl defending the little girl on the playground. I just really played this part really well, and like everything was fine. And other than the relationship with my dad being like, "No, no, no, no, push me, you know, don't, you know," and he, I think he sensed maybe something had happened, but he also didn't know who to tell what to tell. I wasn't talking, and mostly he just, he just didn't do it, but I had had a very affectionate childhood with my parents and with him. I think it was incredibly hard on him. And so that's when all that started, that distancing, and not talking to boys, and not having any friends, and not bike riding with the boys, and nobody could like me, and I still did the plays, and that's where I did a lot of my therapy, I think at the time was getting on stage, and playing a part, and being able to cry, or scream, or laugh, or whatever it was, I do believe that saved my life in a lot of ways. And I'm a big advocate for the arts, and how important it is for kids to be involved in aim. - Yeah. - So I was very successful in school. I got all the, you know, I went that direction. - Even after that, yeah, even after that. It was like, you're gonna get the straight A's, and I'm gonna nose to the grindstone, and when the notes would come from somebody at the new junior high school, which I'd barely been in before I was kidnapped, you know, seventh grade was junior high, and I am now back, and I've missed the whole, basically the whole first semester, and I'm trying to be the drill team leader, and I don't know anybody, it's January, and I would get notes from somebody that I didn't know, and they would tell me that take your bike, go to such and such, phone booth, and sit on the floor, and at this time, the phone will ring, answer the phone. I mean, it would give me specific instructions, and I would do exactly what it said, I'd get home from school, I'd do my homework, I'd be like, oh, my mom, I'm gonna go on a bike ride, I'll be back in a little bit, and I would ride my bike over to the phone booth here, or the phone booth there, there were a couple of them that weren't too far, and I'd sit on the floor and tell the phone would ring, and on the other end of the line, it was either female companion, it was either the alien voice, or it was first told. - So when he gets out of jail, obviously, your parents, at least your father has backed off of him a little bit, along to my dad never let him in the house. - Right, but it is during this time period between the first and the second where he gets closer to your mom. - Yes, and he incessantly called the house. During the hours of the day, when he knew my dad would be at work, he would call 15 times, and my mother would be like, okay, I don't wanna answer the phone if it's him, because now this is the pattern. And the one time she'd pick up the phone, she goes, you've got to stop calling. Well, just let me tell you, just let me tell you what happened. - Yeah, and once in a while, there she would, she'd listen, I had this depression, all that I could think about was you. You know, here I am with Jan, and she's in the kitchen. you know, making some food for us and, you know, I just could see you standing. in there. I just really, really, I'm so in love with you. I wish I had met you first. I mean, he had all the things to say. And my mom's like, well, you didn't. And, and, and, you know, I'm glad that you're okay. And I'm glad that you're back. And, you know, my mother is still this person like everybody else. Well, he didn't hurt her. I mean, you're not going to press charges, you know, like as if people actually press charges. We don't press charges. You know, they, they decide if they're going to press charges, you know, the FBI and all of that. And they did go forward. They were like, no, he did take a child across a country's border in to Mexico. We are, we are going to, you know, we're going to do this kidnapping charge. And we're going to do it. Even if you guys do all the wrong things, which my parents had no idea what was right or wrong. They don't know anything about the court system. So it's during that period of time, I would say within about four to five months of me being home, like by that next summer, that they have moved. They've moved out of Pocotello and they've moved to Ogden, Utah, which is about, I'd say, two hours or so from Pocotello. And they've moved. Well, now they don't just have me trying to see our friends. Now they've got Karen, who is so close to his second son, Jimmy. I mean, I've found letters from her in these boxes of things that I've been unpacking that, Jimmy, I'm so mad at my dad. I don't know why he won't let us. We're going to come and see you. Our mom is going to bring us down and we're going to see you, you know, and you and I, we're going to, some day, we'll probably get married. And I mean, literally, these sweets in so many times, I mean, so many things. And somebody intercepted it before she ever sent it because it was in my mom's boxes of things. So pressure on my mom, pressure from him on the phone calls every day, expressing his feelings and love. And of course, Jam was driving me crazy. I'm practically glad that the FBI finally found us and got it, got us home. She was going to make me nuts, you know. And, but Marianne, I could just see you and we should be together. I know you have feelings for me. And of course, my mom did, you know, he had made sure of all of that before it ever happened. He'd, he had done that. That was compromising things and put those things in place like you said, so that there would be something that he could blackmail my parents with. Well, now he's working on my mom. She's already got something on my dad. Yeah. And basically, my mom took us to Ogden, maybe three or four times over the course of the next, that summer and whatever. I might, against my dad's will. I mean, he was mad. She, he did not want us going. But she said, well, well, you know, Robert and Gale are now separated. I think they're getting divorced. Okay. So that had happened. And so we're just going to Gale's and the kids and the kids to see their friend, you know, the girls are so homesick. I didn't know that. So they separated. They did. And they eventually divorced. So during that time, those first six months or so, tons of pressure going to to see the our friends, but always birch told knowing when we were coming and coming over to the house, you know, even if they're separated, he's there. But the first summer, he was working on some new, I think it was like pinball machine business. I mean, like he had, you guys have to come and see what I've been doing. Oh, no, and it was jewelry. Anyway, so I remember one time me and mom, both of us went with him to go see what he was selling. Oh, you just come with me. You know, the kids are playing. Just come with me. I want to show you. And so we went with him. And this is another one of those experiences that I look back on. And I, I'm like, well, I know exactly what was happening because my mother talks about this experience and we went, whatever to see, whatever, and they go, so I need to stop by my apartment. He was now living in an apartment. I need to stop by there and grab some stuff. Oh, I have some bracelets. I have some bracelets. So I want to get to Jan Karen and Susan, all of us have some bracelets. Oh, and one for you too, Mary Ann. So we go to his apartment. He gets us both, I don't know, something to drink, some sort of soda. I don't know what what it was. But obviously there was something in it because my mother tells this story of sitting in that, and it was kind of one of those spinny kind of chairs. Yes, so we're popular. And she said, I just remember putting my head back. And, and at one point, I, I opened my eyes, but I didn't really lift my head up. And I remember just seeing him and he was shirtless. Yeah, pants on. But I think she said he was shirtless and he was walking across the living room where I was sitting. And I remember trying to trying to turn my head to see if you were sitting in the other one, the other little chair like twisty chair. And she says, and I don't remember seeing you. I just remember putting my head back and going back and just I couldn't keep my eyes open. And she said, so whatever that 20, 30 minutes was, the other thing that she said was that he, when we got up to leave, you know, and apparently I was awake as far as she could tell, but she was loopy and she was kind of stumbling. And of course, I would have willingly done whatever he told me I had to do. So if he was doing something sexual with me, I don't remember it. Like cognitively, it still is just an implied thing, but he made fun of her. He goes, oh man, for a lady, for a woman who doesn't drink, you're sure stumbling around. What's matter with you? Right? You know, like a mom's like, I don't know. It's like I got a headache. And anyway, she said not until, you know, years later, did I look back on that and go, he drugged me in that hour and a half or whatever that we were gone. And then back over and played with our friends. And then mom took us home. And so about, I would say probably towards the end of that six-month period of time is when my dad, he just put his foot down. He said, if you keep taking the girls, if you keep going to see that family, that man, you know, I'm working to get divorced. I'm going to, you're in danger in our kids. I don't know what's wrong with them. I don't know what's happened, but something's wrong. My dad just knew it. He was very firm. My mom was like, you're being ridiculous. So anyway, at one point, he burst-told, gotten her on the phone, said, please come down. I want to, I want to lay everything out for you so that you can see, you know, exactly what had happened. You know, he'd already said a bunch of things. He said, but I want you to see for like, for how long, you know, that I have been in love with you and why? And what I'm going to tell you all the things, you know, and my mom was like, okay, so she goes and she said, and that was the time when I met him in a parking lot of a cafe, but then he said, just follow me to where I live. And he was in another motorhome by this point, I think. But she said, and I stayed too long and it got too late and there was too much, there was just too much of all the feelings and the tension and that whole thing, you know, when you're fighting something for this many years and you know you love your husband and your kids, but you're fighting this attraction to somebody and many women were attracted to him. And she said, and then, you know, he just leaned over, he kissed me, but his hand on my left and my knee and then moved it up my thigh and she said, and the rest is what happened. And she said, and I, and it happened, she told me there were about six interludes, you know, she said, but a couple of the times we did not ever go as far as sex, but there were about three or four times that we did. And she said it was after about the sixth time that I got home and, and your dad, he just, without me ever saying anything, he knew, he knew something was very, very wrong. And he said, you've been, you've been down there, you've seen him. And she said, within 48 hours, there were papers on our table that they were divorced, like I said, I'm divorcing you and I'm taking the girls. And it about killed him. I mean, he cried every day and my mother too. And so when that happened, she went to see her mom. It was also in another little city close to Ogden, but about maybe, you know, three-quarters of the way to Ogden from Pocatello, so an hour and a half away, maybe from our home. So she, she went to spend some time with her mom. And while she was there, her little sister, Eileen, my mom has, there's three girls in the family of nine, six brothers and three girls. And my mom's the middle. And her younger sister, who had been through a really rough marriage, by that point, she came and just to grandma's house. And she just said, I told you, mom, she was an idiot. There was nobody nicer than Bob Proper that she could ever be married to. And my grandma said to her, before she hadn't dementia at all. So she was, she was like, Marianne, if you don't fix this and go home, she goes, I like Bob better than I like you. You better figure it out and get it fixed. You better fix this. And she said there was something about my little sister who've been through hell in her first marriage and my mother that started to shake something out of me. Reality check. Yeah, something. And she said, and a couple other things that my grandmother said to her, she said she's using you. She said, "He's not a good man. "I've known it since the minute that I met him." - Robert, yeah. - Robert's not a good man. He's a snake. She said something like that. And my mom kind of was taken aback and finally started really thinking about the whole thing by the time she came back. It was maybe two weeks. And in that two-week period that she was gone, dad told us, "I don't remember this the way Karen, "my sister who has a really good memory." And when dad sat us down, I don't really even remember this and told us that he and mom might be getting divorced. And Karen said, "I just remember saying, dad, "nobody gets divorced. "We didn't have one friend. "We have one friend that had divorced parents "in that time period in our neighborhood, in our world." And Karen was like, "You can't do that. "You have to work it out, dad. "You have to, you know, and I don't remember anything "but just sitting there and just quiet. "Not knowing anything about my mom and virtual, "just knowing that I'm still the female companion "and I've got a mission and I'm feeling responsible "for everything but saying nothing, right?" And it was just, you know, all the tears and everything. Yeah, so by that, and he said, "She's gonna go, "your mom's thinking about it and what we need to do." And of course he made it very clear. You know, I don't think we should have a relationship with the virtual family, their dad did something very bad. They're taking Jan, it's really a bad thing. And I'm like, oh, well, dad, he didn't do anything. You know, I'm always playing the part. So your parents are separated? Yeah, separated, and then do they get back together? Yes, so what happens is we're all crushed and oh, this can't happen. By the time my mom comes back from that visit and being there with her mom, she's figured it out. She's like, something is wrong with him. Something is not right. I don't know what, I don't know what he's done. I don't still not really ever considering that maybe he would abuse me because that was just something nobody thought possible. And but knowing that something was wrong, that he was manipulating her. And she finally came back. And luckily for us girls, we all happen to be in the kitchen. And the kitchen looks, there's a big, arched doorway, and it looks down to the dining room and then beyond that is the front door, dining room, front door to the house, and then the living room and the fireplace is down to the room. And you can see it all from the kitchen. And we all happen to be in the kitchen. I don't know if we were working on homework around our tiny table. I have no idea how it fit in there. But we were there because we witnessed when my mom came home and she didn't come through the back door with the way that they always came in the house through the back door. And that was the beginning of the kitchen or go down the stairs to the basement right there at the back door. She came to the front door and she rang the doorbell like kind of thing, like she's visiting. We didn't know it was her sitting out, we're not looking out the kitchen window or anything. And so dad opens the door and there's mom. And we're all like, who is it? And he didn't say anything. And then he kind of stepped back into the dining room and we're all watching. And she came, she stepped in. She knew that was, that she could step into the door into, through the door. And she just, she just put her arms out to my dad and she said, oh, Bob, I've been such a fool. I'm so sorry. You know, I love you. I love my family. I love my daughters. This is where I want to be. And my dad just disintegrated into sobbing and my mother too and then they just tugged each other and held each other and we all, we all got to witness that. And that was really another one of those moments in my life where I learned everything I needed to know. - Yeah. - But their example, by how forgiveness was there and and contrition and love and humility. - Humility, yeah, it was all right there. It was demonstrated for me, you know? So those, those things that when I say I got everything that I ever could have needed or wanted from my parents, I really did. And that was a great example in a moment in my life that I'll never forget. From that point on, they were, they were united and then a whole other year almost goes by. And I'm still hearing from virtual, he shows up in my bedroom, my downstairs bedroom that he divided it used to be one great big room. - This is after now, so they're back together. - Right, and then Birch told us coming back into the home. - Yes, but without them knowing. - Without having to wait. - Without having to wait in the middle of the night. And I don't know he's coming. - Okay. - He's obviously got a key to our back door. - Yes. - Because they locked the doors I think after that. I do believe that was happening. - Yes. - Didn't change the locks. But anyway, at the two different times, very vivid memories for me. So now I'm going into my 14th birthday. But during that year, there were two times that I remember him coming and being standing in the doorway of my bedroom and the way the bed faced, I could see him or from my hanging chair. One way or the other, I can't remember. But I remember the first time and I woke up because the voice, the alien voice on the speaker, the speaker was in my room. - Oh wow. - I must have set it up. I must have been wired. I don't know if he had done that when he did the handyman work to divide our bedroom. So we would each have our own room and I was in the very back room. - That was before. We kind of skipped that part. - Before the first kidnapping. - Yep. During this, which, sorry, we're jumping around. - Yeah. - Before the first kidnapping, well, he was telling your parents he needed therapy and he was in a dark place. He said, and correct me if I'm wrong, that part of his therapy was hanging out with you. - Yes, yes. Okay, so all of that. Okay, so that's very interesting. Yes, this is how this all unfolded. That's another part of the first document that people build there. - Yeah. Okay, so as we were getting older, we got our allergy pills, you know, now we're getting older. He has a furniture store and he's like, you know, he's like, would you guys want to have your own bedroom? I mean, I do handyman stuff all the time for people and then I got the furniture wholesale. And of course, I wanted my own room. I was about that age. - And you're in a big room together. - Huge room. - Yeah, one big wall and huge room. I wanted it. I don't think Karen ever wanted it. - Yeah. - I'm not sure if she ever wanted it, but she was like, oh, that might be okay. Anyway, so then he handyman tool belt, whole thing. Put up the big wall. So I don't know if he wired it in advance. I don't know how much of all that was going to happen. He already knew about and had planned. They came on, it woke me up, scared me to death. It's now in my home home in my downstairs bedroom, which is in the back corner of the house with two small windows on the outside wall here and the outside wall here, the back yard and the side yard. And I'm just catatonic. I mean, truly the sound of that voice, I was so scared of that sound. So anyway, that happened and I'm just staring, you know, into the darkness and all of a sudden, in the doorway, there's a figure and there's no shoes on his feet. That's what I remember. That he didn't have any shoes on. Yeah, it's just socks. And he was standing there and he said, they told me that they would transport me here. - Oh, okay. Now he's living in Ogden, whatever, but now he's in my room. And then it happened one other time, those two times. And then one, the second time, when he left, I found, I found, I don't know if it was a notebook or if it was just a full, a piece of paper. And it said, hide this. And so I put it in the pillow case of my hanging chair, which he had also had built for me. And the blue velvet hanging chair with the big round pillow on the sides. And I hid it inside there. And I don't know if I've read it at the time or anything, I just hid it, like it said. I just always did whatever it said, whatever, you know, and I hid it away. And then within about, I don't know if it was another month or two, then I was to take this letter out, this thing out. And I was to copy it in my own handwriting. And that's how I wrote the letter. And I was supposed to copy it exactly. And so like he had words misspelled on that letter. I didn't misspell words. And it was like, you know, "Dear Bob and Mary Ann, I can no longer live in this house with your screwed up morals." And then the instructions, which I got through, a phone booth message, a phone booth message from him, and then on the actual paper itself told me to pack a backpack on what to put in it and write this letter on this paper and sign your name and then leave the letter on your bed. And then forget the backpack, and it'll be in your closet. Keep it in your closet. And I'll tell you when to do that, or you'll know that this is the night, you have to stage a fight with your parents. I want you. to get really, really mad at your mom and dad and just screaming y'all and go down to your bedroom and slam the door and don't answer the door until you don't want them to come in and you don't know when you're coming out of the whole thing. So that's what I did. I did it just like I was told to and left the letter on the bed and that night have the fight and they had come down and mom had brought me a tray of food. Just leave it by the door. I don't you know I remember all those things happened and I remember my dad coming down and knocking on the door when it's really late. I said I'm not answering the door and he's like well I just want to tell you that I'm sorry and then you know I he just had something to say that was real sweet you know not right never, never, never during this whole almost two years of me trading my dad 180. So different than I ever had had before. He never pressured me. He just came back with step in front of a moving train for you honey I don't know what's wrong but I love you you know even with just no affection nothing I did nothing and so anyway he just again you know I'm sorry that that something we did hurt you or hurt your feelings and we love you and and I'll have mush and toast ready in the morning you know for breakfast and I was like okay you know just kind of this way and that was the night that virtual came in his I think he had by then a black link and continental by then and he left the car running kind of pulled over a little bit but you know some middle of the night nobody's outside in my little town anyway and he came to the bedroom window and he said make sure both the windows are unlocked and I'll help you and he helped me leave get out through the bedroom window in that little isolated bedroom that he had created for me and helped me you know pull the you know pull the bed over you know do this do that so that you can get up high enough and you know so just little windows that's kind of the top of the room in those old basements so anyway that's how I that's how it happened the second time yeah and then I got into the the black Lincoln and we drove away and I remember partway he was taking me to California and he told me that and he goes you're gonna stay with a family there that they're gonna take they're gonna take care of you until school starts and then you I've got you ready to be enrolled into this it was a Catholic boarding school at all-girl school yeah all-girl school flintridge sacred hard academy and I've been back to visit that place too and look at it it seems so massively large and it's just not you know but I mean it was it still is there so I stayed with this family and part of the way I remember him letting me drive part of the way and and I somehow there was some it wasn't an accident didn't hit his car but we almost hit a car while I was sitting on his lap driving because he you know of course I'm a kid I think that's so cool you know and he's an idiot so anyway I'm seeing there and that was the time when I I hit the steering wheel and I still have a little scar from my little I have two scars on my nose one of them was from that and one of them was from a play that I did later and this the drop the bar from the drop the backdrop you got caught on something and I kind of went like this and it landed on me oh I made my nose bleed and I I think it broke my nose so I had you know how little scar on my nose from this thing and silly things that I do remember and then I went to this house and they had this little cute little attic bedroom and just like your brain does I looked at him and thought oh I think they're aliens I would have those experiences like one of the nurses in the doctor's office when they were checking me out and I looked at her and the way she looked at me to these huge blue eyes and darker hair and then somebody in a in an office one time jet black hair with these really really blue eyes and both of those times I thought oh maybe that say that maybe that's death run I'd look at different people and when I got to that house again it felt like maybe the the husband maybe he's one of the aliens because of how I don't know why but your brain just fills in the blanks clearly kept oh yeah you full of it whether it was the pay phone oh yeah it was the speaker in your room yep all of that so that makes complete sense so he drops off with this family which I'm assuming you have a new alias now because I'm sure now I'm Janice persons or missing children yeah what was your name Janice Tobler right and for all I know he told them the same story that he told the nuns right which is that I don't know because I just played along with I'm supposed to be here and he's my dad and then they're going to put me into the same boarding school where their daughter yes is from what we know now about at least the nuns I don't think they've ever been able to locate the family that I was with for about two and a half weeks because the first told would come back and forth you know he'd come on the weekends and so getting back to the whole idea of what happened to him after the first kidnapping that's just about to come up right he's now done a second kidnapping and now the first kidnapping he is sentenced for you know something with a minor or whatever kidnapping I mean he gets some sort of a charge because of all the time he served in Mexico jail and in Pogertel, Idaho jail he's only sentenced to 15 days in jail that's his whole thing oh and when does it happen about a week or two after I'm in the boarding school okay I'm now in the boarding school he's come each of the weekends and got me in the school and he had told the nuns that my mother had been killed and in Laos that was there was a big crisis over in Lebanon in Laos and whatever something was going on and he had told them that my mother had been killed and that he was in the CIA and that they needed to protect me and my identity that for sure they couldn't tell anybody that I was in that school so these sweet nuns that take me into this boarding school they are so kind and protective and all of these things you know her mother's been killed the whole thing and they were really sweet to me and at first I had a room all by myself for about a week and then a girl from Japan just sent a half her letters that's why I can remember her name but she was my roommate she spoke very little English but her name was Jacinta Lobo and she would sometimes when I would be crying or something in my bed you know and she didn't know why she would come over and she'd be oh Jen sweet tears oh oh now happy tears what do you do these sweet love business no idea what's going on in my life and so I think about things and people like that along the way that I'm like I wish somehow you could know that that was you that did that for me actually helped you help me you know yeah and so she was my roommate and didn't speak too much English and but very smart and and I was you know started school and again you know immersing myself in school making sure I was getting good grades and going to the little dining hall and all the things of that help so much give me some kind of normal in between the weekend visits where you then take me away you know for two or three days do the awful things and then I come back and go back into school and I I look back and I'm like it all feels like a like a story that I'm telling now but it was all real you know and and I'm like man just the little things that people do and they don't know what's going on with you but how much those things matter to be kind absolutely an absolute aspect of everybody's life you don't know when and she's going through I'm in school and about the third week and or maybe fourth I don't know I don't have a real good timeline in my brain but he he let me know I'm not coming I can't come this weekend right you know I'm gonna be I'm gonna be gone and then I'll come the next weekend so I won't see you this week for the next week days it's 15 days he's going to jail I have no idea that this is the time until I'm looking at all these records and I'm like that's why you didn't come oh he never told me as a this kid you know that's 14 in this boarding school which was I wasn't a Catholic yeah but I learned the rosary I went to mass every day and I acted like I knew everything you know and all those things added to my acting skills I guess you played the part I played the part yeah and I look back on that and I'm like wow here's the record of when he was in jail serving his 15 days for the first kidnapping he's already kidnapped me the second time and I'm in this boarding school and this is the days that he serves his time in jail it's wild when I look back on the story crazy and how so I'm assuming the FBI gets involved again yeah they do mostly Pete Welsh okay because they're like look they list he knew when my parents call and said she's gone here's the letter he came to the house he's like they're like yeah of course it's virtual we know it is right but we don't know Yes, because we don't have any kind of evidence and peace like, okay, because it was such a chaos, the first time when you're there's a missing child in the newspapers and the reporters and the people outside of your house and the drive by your house and all this stuff that was happening, which I didn't know any about saying about. Because of all of that, this time, because of this, we kind of have to list her as a runaway because of how this letter reads, but we all know she's not a runaway. So, of course, we're going to start watching him, we're going to make contact, and then my parents eventually hired a private investigator who also did a bunch of things, and many times he would call on the phone on his own and he's like, I heard from Jan, literally say this to my mother, because he only calls during his acting like you ran away, like I ran away calling him, yes, and that I called him, she needs money, she's living hard, she's on drugs, she's prostituting herself, he's telling this to my parents, my mother so I almost laughed out loud. I said, do you know how Jan, I mean, she didn't say this to him, but she's like, every time Jan has ever had had a shot, it's as if, you know, you're cutting off her fingers, she tries and she tries to be brave, she hates needles, she's using drugs and hard drugs, and she's prostituting herself really, well, okay, so they're not buying it at all. No, they know it's him, right? But nobody can keep following him, like they'll follow, like they'll have people staked out by this apartment that he has, and somebody comes out and goes in their car, whatever, he's got himself in disguise, so he comes back and they still don't think it's him, and then they're like, well he hasn't come in or out for like three days, that seems weird, but whatever, and so all of these kinds of things, they know where he has a motor home, they know where his apartment is, but they can't follow him. They have, he literally has done this. My mother, who now, you know, knows he's the devil along with my dad, she does her own investigating. She goes and gets as many reports from the little local police department or then she'll go to like, she made hundreds of phone calls, she made hundreds of phone calls, she would get the records from the people that had boarded the plane, and somehow she had an in and somebody let her see the names, because she was like, I'll recognize if he's gotten alias in the name and how many passengers were there, was there a girl with a man, you know, there were certain things that she, and she would go through, and any of them that looked like they could be suspect, she'd make a phone call, and she did that with, with, with airplane records, with schools, she had, I don't know if it was a proper dream or something, but she told me one time, she said, there was something that happened in, I don't remember what, when she thought, maybe he's put her in a school, she had that thought without him saying anything, because he was always, yeah, divine, he was divine, yeah, whatever, and so then she started calling schools, she called hundreds and hundreds of different schools, she sent, I mean, back in the day, what do you do? Well, you make, I have the little letter, and she put a little school picture in it, and here's her, you know, cut out, we've got 30 school pictures, and she sent them to 30 different schools, and, and do you have this student, she's missing, our daughter is missing, and she said I heard back from maybe half a dozen is all, but I sent to, all 30 until all your school pictures from that year were gone, and she, one of them that came back, and they sent the picture back, and they said, we're so sorry about your missing daughter, and we decided to send the picture back in case she needed to send it on to some others, you know, I mean, you're doing things in a way that investigative product, right? But in the way you can do it in the 70s, that's not what she's put on the ground. My mother started calling schools, and when she heard the woman's voice at the Marymount school, she said, I had this overwhelming, again, it had to have been some sort of divine intervention, had this overwhelming feeling, Marymount, and then as she talked to that lady, the, that answered the phone, and she said, no, I'm sure we don't have that, but can I send you a picture? And yes, anyway, she said, I just knew there was just something that came over us, or me, with that one phone call, and she said, and so then we narrowed that search, and I started calling other places in our private investigator started doing research, and pretty soon, they, it took them going to Flint Ridge Sacred Heart Academy, three times, what, three new pictures, and newspaper articles, and this little girl's been kidnapped before, is this the man? No, no, that's not because they thought, oh, so the bad guy's coming because he's got it all set up, I'm CIA, and if you tell people that my daughter's here, and they, they're the bad guys, and then they're gonna torture her to get to me. So those sweet nuns were like, no, no, she's not here, but they knew from, because something else happened, where they followed him, and they knew he got, he landed in California under this name, Tobler, I think that they, they said he's going by the name Tobler, but his real name is Robert Birch, told anyway, and then they, they found me, and, and they sent the, what do you call the person that's your main, like, for your city, like the city attorney, but not that guy, the one that's over the police, he was the one who came after they had seen enough evidence to go, yeah, she is here, it's really a kid, I mean, they were just mortified. I bet. And so he came, they called me from a class, the nuns were really nice to me, and they always made sure I had extra food or extra things, because, you know, they, I don't know, they just, I guess that's how you say we love you. Yeah, you know, and in a boarding school. Anyway, and the, I got to go into the school there, do you remember a little house on the Prairie? Yes, of course, you're very young. No, I watched a little less on the Prairie. Okay. So I watched it religiously, because he'd given me this little tiny TV, it was about the size of a, of a VCR. And so at night, when Jacinta was asleep or whatever, I would get under the covers in my, in my little bed, and I would turn the TV on, and it had a little earphone plug in an auxiliary. So I had these little, over the head earphones and birch dolls given this to me, and I get under there and I get the antenna out of my covers and I go out the side and I could pick up two shows. Yeah, I could pick up Charlie's Angels. Oh, no, I'm a little house on the Prairie. Great shows. I know. Super full of strong barrels and women. And I was like, what's that like divine? Oh, absolutely. And I'm like, was so good for me. Absolutely. They had purpose and so did I. And it was hard, but I was doing it. I was doing my mission. It was what I was supposed to do. Yeah. And it was just, it's amazing to me. Little things like that. So that's one of my favorite memories. And of course, my sweet little Jacinta, who, apparently speaking English, she was so sweet to me, wrote me little letters and notes. I still have those in all my boxes of stuff. And sometimes I'm going to try to find her. I know she was from Japan. That's all I know. And then the other thing that I remember was being in class with the girl that goes blind in Melissa Sue Anderson was a girl that went to that boarding school. Okay. And then she would be gone sometimes because she was filming. And of course, I had been watching little eyes on the Prairie. Like, you know, religiously. And then now I'm watching it under my covers at the boarding school. And there she is. Yeah. There was those blue eyes and I'm like, I, we're in the same class and at the same table. And I would talk to her. And I was like, oh, I just want to do what she does. I'm going to be an actress. And then you go on to do that. Yeah. So then George Shell came from our police department, our legal, whatever. And he's the one who brought me home. I was so mad leaving the, the place and telling the nuns that I love you. And I want to be here. And I'm coming back. And I don't know why they're taking me. I'm, you know, I to the end. I was Janice Hobart until the nuns came and actually came to our home in Pocotello because they were testifying in court. And all of that, which happened over the next two years, I was gone for over three months. Almost a second kidnapping. Yeah, because I was gone from about the 10th of August until, again, all right, before Thanksgiving, you know, that's how it went. And so that was my ninth grade year. And luckily, I had a couple of teachers that really were my friends and that really loved me. And because again, I'm not talking. I still, there's a, I'm, I'm not 16 until the story comes out when I'm 16. I'm 14. That was like D day for me. So I come home. The little nuns come. I remember Sister Maria Terez came and as the year goes on, I keep getting messages from him. Same kind of ways. People at school. Now I'm in high school, you know, length grade into 10th grade. Is he out of, or not in prison? Oh, he's not in prison. Oh, no. It's just like he gets arrested and then he post bail and now he's out again. And now he's, yeah, I think you stuff again. Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, that's the life. I didn't see Ian show my bedroom that year. But I got lots of different notes from him telling me again to go to the phone booth and the alien voices on the other end writing my bike and coming home. But I was really involved in school. So I had a lot of play practices and a lot of choir rehearsal early morning and the gate city singers that I did all those things. in high school, especially, you know, I was really busy. And during that period of time, I don't know if he was losing interest, but he didn't contact me quite as often. But I did see him. There were times when I left and in Idaho, you get your permit to drive. Yes. I got it right around my 14th birthday going into my 15th birthday. Like I was already in the driver's training stuff. So by the time I was 15, I had a driver's license. So I would take the little car, and he would send a note, and I was supposed to meet him somewhere. Sometimes it was in that mini-dome parking lot, the big football stadium. It was just really literally, you could walk to it from our house, but around the back of it, at that side. And he'd be there, and then he'd take me away, and we go off to the reservation or whatever, and it was often that he would take me in his car to where he had his motorhome. And there again would be the right in the, you know, sexual assault, and all the trying to have the mission before I'm 16, got to save the dying planet. This still continues all through that year. I mean, I don't know when House arrest started, but nobody's watching him, or just I mean, I mean, you're a kid, so obviously you don't. Yeah. My god did the justice system fail. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. My poor parents, because on that second one, yes, that was when he had his attorney who was also just in our neighborhood, somebody that had come into my dad's flower shop many times, and all of a sudden, now he's his attorney, and she's saying, well, you know, why don't you guys come and talk to me, because he's been telling me stories about things that happen between you and Mary Ann, and you know, he really, you know, I'm hoping that we can get this settled outside of court, because, you know, we don't want, we don't want it to come out that Bob's a homosexual, and whatever my mom's like, Bob is not a homosexual, and still not really ever having heard from my father's lips what happened with Birch told. Yes. So of course, that's what is planted in my mom's mind. So they go down to talk to her, you know, not knowing that they should never talk to his attorney. They don't know any of this. Of course. Now the FBI and the police, they're all like mad at my parents. You're so stupid. What did you, well, she said that if we just struck a deal that then it wouldn't all have to go to court. I just want it to go away for you. Yeah, they wanted to go away for all of us the summer of my 16th birthday. I've seen him, you know, on and off several times, you know, maybe only five or six times during that whole, you know, year and, um, and of course there's a new, a new trial going and whatever. And what ended up happening was when I went to this theater camp that a five week long theater camp at BYU for I think you had to be at least a sophomore in high school, but it was for sophomore juniors and seniors. And I was a junior and I went to the camp. I don't know how my parents let me go, but I begged and begged and it was so great. It was so, so in my element of doing things and I was supposed to contact him when I got there so that we could, you know, see each other and I tried a couple of times and then he would say, well, I can come on this time and I would be like, I have play practice and I want you to go out of the, you can't get out of the dorm. They kind of lock you in and sort of speak as we're, you know, and so anyway trying to find a time, a couple times it never happened. I never saw him. And then my 16th birthday was happening right before the, the final play was happening like the first week of August and my birthdays July 31st. And so I hadn't seen him and all my family was coming down to see the show and then, and then they went for a few days and then they were taking this all past kids in the camp back home. And basically as I had my 16th birthday, I knew that I was supposed to have had a baby by my 16th birthday. That was what they had said. And I was half of me was like, maybe I'm going to be vaporized. Maybe I won't even get to do the play. I just really didn't know. I hadn't heard from him. And I'd had so many great experiences at this camp and doing what I loved and with other kids. And there was a boy that kept following me around that was in the camp. I had a scene with him in the play. But I, you know, I avoided boys. I had done everything I was supposed to do. Oh yeah, everything's still that I was supposed to do. And but we would have a break from the play practice, the dinner break or, you know, half an hour break. And we all went down to the bowling alley that had a ice cream bar. And I was, you know, behind this boy and we were all getting our ice cream and doing that and go back for the last part of the night. And, and he paid for my ice cream. And I mean, I didn't ask him to. I was so shocked. I knew something terrible was going to happen. I tried to be normal, you know, ate my ice cream. And then, and then I said, I don't feel good. I have to go back to my dorm room. And they say, that's okay. You just go and rest your part. We're not going to concentrate on that tonight. You just go rest. And so I went back to my little dorm room. My roommate, who had been in the theater camp, had been sent home. I think she didn't follow any of the rules. I followed all those rules and all these other rules, all the rules. Anyway, and so I just laid on my bed and I cried. And I was like, Oh, no, please don't hurt my family. Please don't take Susan. Please, I didn't know he was going to do that, you know, kind of all of this sort of thing. And, and fell asleep. And then woke up the next morning. And my parents always called me every, every morning before I would leave for the day they would call. And so, you know, I got up and I went down to where the phone was, you know, down the dorms, down into the office area and talked to my mom and dad. And, and everybody was, okay, everything was fine. And, and then my mom said, but we did have a little thing that happened with the two dogs, Tiffy and Bandit, where are two dogs. And they're sick. And I don't know if I fed them something bad, but I, but both of the dogs are sick and I'm going to be taking them over to the vet today. And then I was like, Oh, no, you know, and I thought that was me. Oh, I thought what happened with the boy. This is what they're doing. They're going to kill one of my dogs. And I kind of cried and mom says, Oh, I think they're going to be okay. I just wanted to know, you know, and so then I hung up and I went about my day at the camp. And then she said, Oh, we'll call you, we'll call you tonight as well. So on my dinner break, I went back and sure enough, they called and I talked to him again. Well, Tiffy's not good. She's staying at the vet for the night. She, they're a little worried about her, but Bandit's back home and doing fine and whatever. I think maybe I fed him something bad. And then later on, I found out from my sister Karen that they had seen some girls that were in front of our house. And she said, and I swear that they were, they were coaxing the dogs to come over to them and trying to be, you know, like they were being nice to the dog. She said, but I think those girls are the ones that poison the dogs. I think that somehow they were hired by birch told, that's what she thinks. I don't know if that's true or not. But my mom said, maybe I fed him something and it poisoned him. But Tiffy had to spend the night. So then I was a really upset again. She goes, I'll call you in the morning. You know, because I was so upset. She was like, I was like, Oh, it's my fault. It's my fault. She's like, it's not your fault. You're not even here. If anybody's fault, it's my fault. I've probably fed him something bad. I think everything's going to be okay. Bandit's fine. We'll see what happens with Tiffy. And so the next morning, when she called, and I talked to him and she said, Tiffy's coming home. She's fine. Bandit's fine. Everybody's fine. Yeah. And she just knew she should, she knew through that gut feeling that sometimes a parent might have. I just need to keep in touch with her and I need to keep talking to her. I mean, no idea what is going on in my mind and in my world. None. Zero. Nobody knows anything. And so when she called and told me that, it was like the first time in almost, almost four years practically to the day. I mean, this is August. I was kidnapped the first time in early October. And so I'm just a month away from that, you know, a month or two away from that same four years. And I had that thought. And I tell everybody when I go and speak or talk to people, that first thought of a brainwashed person is maybe this isn't real. Yeah. Because I had basically started making plans for how I was going to tell Susan about the mission because now I'm 16 right because she's the next one she's supposed to next one that's going to continue to mission. I knew my dad had bought a gun. I knew where he kept it. And I had planned on going back if telling Susan and if she didn't want to do the mission, then I would kill her and then I would kill myself because I didn't want to be vaporized. I didn't know what that meant, but it sounded terrible. Is that burning from the inside out? Is it like boiling hot water? What is it? You know, but it was scary to me. And so anyway, I just remember after those two things, the ice cream miracle, I call it, and then the dog miracle. And my mom just telling me, you're not even here. It's not your fault. And whatever I had that first thought, maybe before I tell Susan, kill her and kill myself, I better make sure this is real. I have that. But then the second thought that a brainwash person has is, oh, I'm just kidding. I'm sorry. I know you're watching me. I'll do everything you tell me, please don't hurt my family. That's the set that that for me, brainwash person, which is just right there. Yeah. But it was enough of a moment. And I'd had no moments like that until that moment. And from that point on after this play was done and the family came and I got back home, back into school. And that would have been my junior year going back into my junior year. I was 16. I just kind of started testing the waters. It was like I'd talked to a boy at school. I, you know, I let a boy sit by me when I was playing a piano thing for literally for a kid's baptism. And I was playing the piano for him's whenever this kid was getting baptized. And this guy I didn't really know that very well. He just came up and sat by me and he goes, you do a really good job pulling back things, you know. But just little things like that, nothing big. But by the time October rolled around and the homecoming dance or the first dance in school, basically your first school dance, my friend Jan, she had a cousin that was coming to town that was a cousin of her boyfriend. She had a boyfriend and everything, which I never even held a boy's hand. Never had a boy in my life. But she's like, his cousin is coming. Would you come and go with him? So we go on this big, it was like eight of us on this double, triple quadruple dice to this dance. We're all going to go together and we're going to go eat. No, we're going to go to the dance. But he doesn't have anybody to go with. Would you go with him? And I thought, well, that's not quite the same time. And a boy asked me to dance. Okay, that's a big step. I'm going to do it. I said, yes. And we dance with each other and all the things, you know, other people. You can, you didn't have to just dance without one person, although that was kind of the way it was. And I got back home and I came in the front door because that's where he dropped me off. And I hugged him. I didn't kiss him or anything. I didn't know him really. And I said, thank you. That was fun. That was scary. Hugging a boy. And that I'd never see again. But I remember walking through that same front door when my mother had walked through when she came home from grandma's. My dad was sitting in his chair right there, which is the first thing you see in the living room and then the piano is over here. And dad's lazy boy chair. And he was sitting in the chair and he was kind of asleep. And I opened the door and I walked in. And there's my dad, that person who loved me unconditionally. And I'm thinking in my head, this isn't even real. I don't think this is real. But what if it is when I just haven't caught up to me? I didn't know for sure. But I just was like, and I went over and I sat on the arm of his chair. And oh, dad, he wasn't fun. You know, he was waiting up for me. Did you have a good time? And doesn't touch me or do anything, you know, but ask me all the right questions. And I told him it was fun. And that we had a great time and dad's and, and, you know, all the things I bed over and I give him a tiny little kiss on his forehead. I said, yes, I had a great time. Thanks for waiting up to add. You can go to bed now. And gave him a little kiss. Locked past their bedroom. Mom's asleep in bed. Locked past Susan's bedroom. Susan's home and sleep in bed. She's not missing. And then walk back down to the last bedroom on that floor. That's up the main floor. There was the bathroom there, but I didn't even go into the bathroom. I just went into the bedroom. And then my gunny sack dress and my platform shoes. And I just stared at the ceiling and just like, no, just tears just kind of started running down my face. And I'm like, who am I? If this isn't real, what just happened to me, you know, it's all these weird kind of imagine. Like Dean, just the washing over. I mean, I mean, there's relief on some level. There's also like this loss of purpose and, and then all the years that I lost with kind of my dad and my sister's really all of it. And friends and parties and dates and whatever. I don't know. It was some very weird, not like people would think like, it's all just one. Oh, yeah, it'd be. It's over. It's like, it wasn't like that. Yeah. And I just lay there until I fell asleep on top of the bed. I mean, you had a whole childhood to mourn. Yeah. Yeah. God knows how I was, if I was ever going to tell anybody, I didn't know what to do. Literally had no idea, you know, and, and it's interesting to have something like that. That that kind of experience and that prolonged, you know, sexual assault and abuse and, and grooming and brainwashing and being missing away from your family. It's just all the things that you know are supposed to maneuver. And you really truly have no idea where you start or what you do or do you do anything? You just keep pretending like everything's fine and you just are normal. And that's pretty much what you decide you want to do. You just want to be normal. And, and then I really truly, I, I didn't tell anybody anything for a while. When did he what because the trial obviously happened? Yes. And then the trial did happen. And he pled. It was a new plea in the court system, mental defect. And he pled mental defect. And he was, and everybody thought, oh, well, that he'll be in a mental institution for years. He was out before even one year had passed. She was released. Because of course, he termed everybody like, yeah, I've had some depression and I did these stupid things. And of course, his story just knew how to say the right things to every mental health care professional, which we didn't have those words. But whoever was at the mental hospital, you know, I mean, psychiatry had started and psychoanalysis. Those things were there. But, you know, I do a lot of reading. I think that's helped me, you know, a lot with my healing. And when I read, body keeps the score by vessel, they have to cope. And it's really dense reading. It's not an easy read. But reading some of the things that he was going through in the late 60s and early 70s with, with becoming, you know, in the psychiatry and psychoanalysis things. And he worked in a mental hospital. And one of the stories that he told was so interesting. He said, I, I'm working with all these women who are, you know, catatonic or, you know, mentally just broken down and sobbing and all these, you know, extremes and whatever and they're doing shock therapy, you know. And he said, and I just didn't like it. I just felt like, I don't think we should be doing that to the end. So he said, I started a just a simple list of about three questions that he started asking every woman that was there that he was studying and trying to help. This was part of the early days. And he said, I don't know why I knew to ask or how I knew, but I did. I started by asking them if they had been through anything in their childhood. Or as a young, you know, young woman or whatever. And across the board, every single one of them had been through some kind of major sexual, usually, assault or abuse. And then, you know, and then there was another question and was a family member. Okay, was it, can you tell me if it was a parent? And he said, just in their answers of these few short questions, I started to put together like, this is some unfinished way of the mind that's trying to get closure without saying those words. Yeah. And that's how that all became and how it lived in the body. And it's still, and it does. And until you on purpose, do something to heal those wounds and those things. And it's a process. And it's ongoing. It runs you. You know, it runs the show. Absolutely. And so, you know, when you're tired of what happened to you running the show and you can put the piece together and say, I don't think I ever really did that. And that's where I got to in my 30s. Like, there's still things because I was going through relationships and marriages and I couldn't figure it out. And then it finally all clicked. I have a lot of unfinished work that I have to do. And even though it's unfair, that I have to do the work because of what somebody did to me, it's the way it is. You know, and I, when I finally did and got the right therapist and understood trauma and figured it out. I did a lot of reading, a lot of self-help books that helped me, and then having the right therapists along the way, and then eventually, finally, getting into EMDR, and then somatic healing, and all those things, you know, I really am in that place now where I'm ready to help every survivor, and to also change the way our legal system. It's just pathetic how often survivors are not believed, perpetrators are not held accountable, and thus the cycle continues, because until you're believed and you can heal, you're going to pass that on. I just interviewed someone on my show that is a therapist, and is also licensed in modalities like somatic healing and things like that, and she's just like, it lives in the body until the body knows where to put it, and how to release it, until it's processed through. You really, honestly, you try really, really hard to have the relationships, the work life, the balance, all these things, and you just can't have it until you actually clear out the channels, you know, tell you to brain feel safe. Tell your brain feels safe, and your brain knows that it's safe, and then it doesn't have to be on high alert, and all the things that stress and that trauma store in the body makes you sick. Yeah, absolutely. You know, in one way or another, yes, absolutely. So that's really where I'm at now, yeah, is trying to be able to do that. For Birch told, when he, because he ended up passing away, he ended up, he took his own life after he showed up, and this was not the first time that he had tried to find me and been in touch with me. But when my mother and I wrote our stolen innocence, the first book, and we self published it, and it was out there, we were asked to speak at a conference, and my face was on a poster talking about my childhood experience, and it was for a group of women and their daughters at a university. Also, I've had several of those, and this one was at the university in my town where I was living, and they had asked me to come and speak and bring the books, and they had just barely been published, and so there's about a thousand women and their daughters. Earlier in my life, he had found me when I worked in Florida, at Disney World, it was a performer. I did 12 different shows, it was a swing, I did every, you know, not the princess parts, I'm not perfect enough for that, you are, you are too, but I sang in dance and acted. I was the, you know, Miss Lilly at the Diamond Horseshoe, and then I sang at Epcot Center in 12 languages and danced with the dancers, and I had a great time, but he found me during that period of time in my life, and I was, I mean, I never saw him, but he was trying to reach me and contact me because he now wanted to get married, and he had had me married to him in Mexico, but I wasn't there, yeah, right, you know, I was not at present, but he had had two stand-ins, and he gave me a ring and the whole thing, I still have the little ring that he gave me, it still sits in one of my little jewelry boxes to remind me of how far I'm from. I was 12. Yes, but because of that, I guess that was his excuse that he had to have my permission to marry this woman. I mean, this is years later, oh, and this is, you know, it's years later. My son was born. I was 27. I had a hard time getting pregnant and I tried to vitro twice. I'm just telling all my story because I think everybody other should know that there are ramifications that continue to be hard throughout your life. It doesn't end. It doesn't end. Yes, or after you're rescued, you have your whole life to go through. Yeah. And so he found you with the book, and was he angry? Yes. He was angry. And so what he did is he came and he papered the one time this was before this time, he found out that we were writing a book. We weren't even published yet. And he went to Pocatello from wherever he was living at the time and papered all the people in my mother's parking lot. She became a social worker and she was working for the state of Idaho and put these horrible flaggers around all the neighborhoods around my parents' home when they were still living there. Terrible, it was just grotesque what he wrote about, you know, but in reality, he also confessed that he took me. I mean, it was right there in, I'm like, maybe he's just a narcissist. He's just a total narcissist, 100%. And Dr. Romani, when I was on her show, she said, he was not only a narcissist, sweetie, but he was a true pathological liar and a psychopath. Absolutely. And I was like, oh, that's good to know, you know, I've given him too much credit anyway. So, yeah, so there was that that happened and then when I was going to go do this conference, he sees my name, my, and then he contacts me in Florida before my son was born. Then they were writing the book and after that thing in Idaho and paper and all the neighborhoods around my parents' home where they still lived with this grotesque, it was just awful. And then he now sees my picture on a poster because unbeknownst to me, he only lives an hour away from where I now have moved to. Oh, okay. I'm remarried and I have four step daughters and my son and, you know, here he comes again and he ends up coming to that University of campus by the time that they decided to let me go ahead and do the speaking engagement. He runs into the campus police are there, the police in the city of St. George have all been alerted that he might show up because he said so. And then all of my friends that are in Bacca had come, bikers against child abuse, group. They all had come to my house on their motorcycles and I got in my car, drive to the conference and they're all around me. We're protecting her, you know, and I get to the campus and I go in to do my speech. In the meantime, two step daughters that he had married another woman, he had been divorced from his wife, I don't know if he had been married several times or if this was the woman that back in the day, I'm going to marry her and I need your, I don't know if it's the same woman, I don't know. But one of the, the step daughters had seen my book because it had just come out and a few had gone out and somehow somebody saw the pictures that were in the middle of the book and had sent one to a stepdaughter who had run away at 14 to find her dad in Idaho and then they came back and got her younger sister from her mother's house who's married to this man who plays Santa Claus in the community. And yeah, has a little kid sitting on his lap and the older sister, you know, tells the dad, you know, about the abuse of the guy that, you know, mom's married too. He gets those two girls away from him while somebody from that community sees the book with the picture and sends a book to her and she's now contacted every broberg in the phone book until she finds my mother. Okay. And she says, this is him. This is that stepdaughter. This is, and I haven't spoken to my mother for eight years or something. I haven't even seen her because she never believed me and my little sister and I want to meet you. And she came to this conference that I was speaking at and because she was there meeting me and my mom in person kind of for the first time for me, I think mom had met her maybe once before. She was the person that identified with her, the lady, the woman who gave me birth. She wouldn't even call her her mother. The lady who gave me birth just walked through the door. She's that woman over there with the sunglasses on. So we knew that his current wife was there and then shortly after he came in a van and with a fire arm, brandished one of the Bacca guys who also was a carrying kind of, you know, permit to carry. He identified the gun exactly, first told ran into a different Bacca member, put him in the hospital. I had to have surgery. That's what made the little tiny blurb in USA today in Utah because that's where I was living at the time. And then he goes to jail and then he's, he goes to a trial. It doesn't happen for almost two years, of course, because that's how it all works. And then he gets found guilty, not for little girls. No. For having a firearm. Yes. Because he has a firearm and he's a restricted person. He is supposed to sign a sex offender registry, which he had not done in his town. There were two misdemeanors and three felony charges. And he was found guilty for all of them. And they released him to the custody of the police who then drove him to the border. And then the other police picked him up from the border to get him into Nevada from Utah. And when that, he was in his own truck because he had a health condition, a heart condition or something, they were going to do the sentencing after the holidays. Because this was like, again, right before Thanksgiving or right around that time. were going to get through the holidays, and then he was coming back to be sentenced. And when he was handed off at the border, he took his truck as that was supposedly happening. And he raced into a campground or something in Nevada. And he took his own life. Yes. So he didn't even serve the time, but he would have been served. Or he wouldn't, he would have been sentenced to year, hopefully. I'm assuming. I mean, I mean, I can't imagine how he couldn't, because I literally was in the not on that trial. But after he showed up at that conference, I went and got a stocking injunction. I applied for a stocking injunction because I was afraid he was going to be around, you know, my kids and they're, they're here at the school and here, here he is. He's living in a way for me. I had no idea. And he showed up, he showed up to fight the stocking injunction on his own with no attorney. Here's my sister in attorney. Here's a stack of documents, this high that she's got it all. It's all, all the kidnappings, all these many more documents we have now for doing the documentary that we did the second documentary and the nine part series. We have even more. But, but that brief that my sister compiled was at least this big. Oh my goodness. And it's sitting there. And I'm shaking like I'm 12 years old. When, when he, I mean, he's sitting this close as you are to me. We're both facing a judge up here and he's this close. And I haven't seen the guy, you know, he's tried to find me several times. I mean, this has happened. But I've never seen his face again or been in close proximity to him that I know of. And it was in that courtroom. And I'm, and I'm trying to be really, really brave. And, but I'm just shaking like this until he says this made me so mad. And then all of a sudden the mama tiger came by me. And he basically just, he said, well, I just have one more question that I'd like you to ask her, you know, how much money is ABC paying her for her story? You know, I've heard that she's just making a lot of money with all of these lies she's made up. And it made me so mad. And I don't know what happened. But something took over that little 12 year old that was shaking in fear and just wrapped her up and said, I got you honey. And I just pointed my finger and I looked straight at him and I said, Mr. Birch told the only reason I am telling my story is to protect other children from monsters like you. You know, and it was like, you know, I don't know what it was. And certainly, no, I have, I have never been paid big money for my story. I have, I have told it over and over and over again. And I will continue to do it if it's going to help one other parent or child see through, get through, survive, come, find help, move on with your life, break the chain and hopefully put it in better laws and protections for children. You know, that's what my foundation is about. And so that experience of sitting this close to him and having that, that, you know, and I do a lot of inner child work still today. I mean, I'll probably go back to the, you know, this lovely darling hotel where we're staying and I'll probably get in the bathtub, you know, if I were home, I'd light some candles, I might put on some music or I might read a little bit, but that happens, you know, when I talk about it, not because it's like affecting me again, but I'm not triggered hardly ever anymore. But I do know that I have to care for myself and that I'm worth it to take absolutely 90 minutes. Yeah. And decompress. And D, you know, realize I'm safe. I have a good life. I have things in my life set up so that I can be happy and hopeful. And I can spread that as much as telling my story. I just want people not to be alone. But that was a really great experience for me because I really didn't think I had much left to do because I've been so, I'm an accomplishing machine, right? I'm a doer. And I had gotten a lot of things done and I continued to do that in my life. But I didn't really know how much was still left kind of unsaid or undone until after I started telling my story. And then I, I started to, you know, go to retreats and therapy and EMDR and those things happened later for me and they do for most people and most people are functional. And they're like, how do you take time for yourself? You got to do the laundry and make dinner and go to your job and whatever. And I'm like, yeah, and if you don't figure that out, it will catch up to you. You can't, you can only shove it down for so long. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's true. I just think so many people are going to be able to take even just a piece of what you're saying and take it home with them and be able to work on things or be able to talk to someone and I think that's so important. It is. So thank you so much. And I mean you, you, you've gone through all of this and then you came out on the other side and you built this beautiful foundation. Thank you. You're doing such good work. Most survivors stay in survival mode way too long and don't even realize it or recognize it because it's how you've have learned to operate and survive. And it's just part of the everyday. But if you find yourself looking for, gosh, why can't I find, why do I look up the wrong kind of guy? You know, why am I constantly, because that was me. I mean, I had a couple of good guys in there. I'm not saying that all of them were, not that it was necessarily their fault, but were we the right match? Couldn't have been because I wasn't all here yet. I wasn't, I wasn't able to do things in relationships that I can do now. So and that's because of what happened to me. So if you want something, you know, if you want to feel better and if you want to have better and just do better in life, you want something better, because you just know things keep crashing and burning, whether it's a job or relationship, friendships, you know, there's a reason. Really, your brain isn't even fully developed till you're 25, 26 years old. So all of the manipulation, all of the things that have kept you silent or feeling shame, those are not yours. They are there because of some, someone else that did something to you that was not your fault. And even like you're saying, even into your adulthood, but especially if your brain hasn't totally developed, you are not responsible for that kind of narcissist, for that kind of sociopath. You know, the criminal mind of a pedophile and the criminal ways that people act towards children and what they do to them is so hideous. And until you find a group of people, you can't heal in isolation. You can do some things that you will not ever get to where you want to be alone. So just do it with your own mind or reading a book. It's good. You need a community, yes, community of people who believe you. First and foremost, be believed, believe somebody and then sit with empathy and listen, if you can find one person to do that, that's the beginning I really feel. And then all of the other things like within the foundation, we have a trauma framework for trauma recovery, which is just think AA or something like that, very similar, but it fills in the gaps where it's dealing with childhood, tween hood, teen hood, trauma and the things that go along with that throughout your life. And they keep kind of cycling back up and around and you wonder, why can't I get ahead? Why can't I get a better job? Why do I never have any money? Why don't I have a relationship? I want a relationship. I can't ever seem to stand it or they're always the bad guy, you know, the narcissist or the they abuse it. They're abusers. And now I've tried to leave and I still can't figure this out. It's it's taking the time to do that. So our time program is within our online community called survivor circle. So that's part of the foundation. It's free. Both things they're free. So if you can't afford a therapist, come, come be with us, you know, and really our third part, we have the awareness program, which is about grooming and teaching adults, because no matter how much you try to teach a kid or a queen or a teen, they think they're in love or they think they're just they're just the puppy. I was just trying to you just don't you just can't you can bring is a developed enough to understand the subtle maneuvers of a grooming manipulation. Yeah, oh gosh, you're not going to you're not going to see it as a kid. And so it's so important now with the internet and yes, - I mean, there's so many avenues for exploitation and abuse and all the things. So that's our awareness program. We have an education program called Spot6, spotting the six stages of grooming. So as an adult or a school, you could have us come and do the presentation on that. And we've got three schools. We presented in Sunnyvale, California, and we're going back into three schools in the fall to do this presentation for the adults, the teachers, the social workers, and the people that have to see it and have to intervene before the worst happens. That's the prevention. That's the awareness and prevention pillar. The next one is for survivors. It's the community. It's building awareness, then building community with other fellow survivors who want to not only get better and feel better, but they also want to do something. They want to advocate. They want to change this for the next generation. They don't want the same things that happen to them to happen to their children or their grandchildren or nieces and nephews and all the people around them that they know this is just in my family. It's going to go forever if I don't stop it because that's where it mostly lies and it's everywhere. So that community of survivors is where we want to collect 10 million signatures. If you don't do anything else, but come to our website, I just sign the thing. Check the box, I'm a survivor. It happened in Florida, I was 12. Now, that's all we ask and we'll keep you in touch with when we're going to take 10 million signatures and go to Washington and say, we're going to change laws. This is a survivor led movement. Our foundation is all survivors. It's survivor led. Every person that leads a program is a survivor of childhood trauma or abuse or shame. And those are the things, those two pillars, awareness community and then that last one is justice. That's our last pillar. And we're going to, that's what we're going to do. That's going to be what this world needs right now. Like, I mean, just your story alone, hearing how the justice system dealt with it and how everybody around you didn't know or wasn't educated enough and everybody can watch it and be like, oh, they just failed as parents. They failed as police officers, they failed. It's like, no, it's just education and knowledge and taking the initiative like you're doing and actually trying to make a change. It's one thing to say it. It's one thing to come on here and tell your story but you're actually going out and doing it. And I think that's just so amazing. That's what we need support. We need people to come and be a part of our movement. You know, we've had a few movements. We had the Me Too movement and a few other things that come but they kind of come and go. Yes. And I'm like, no, it's because we're still not getting into the root of the huge problems in life. They come from childhood trauma. Yes, they don't come because you're an alcoholic and now you need help. Yes, alcohol cane is a symptom of this. You know, addiction is a symptom of this. Cutting is a symptom of this. All of the failures in our financial lives and in our relationship life comes from this. It really does, even domestic violence. The number one predictor that you will be in a domestically unsafe violent, perhaps violent, but unsafe situation is that you've already experienced abuse. And most likely from family. Yes, and you just somehow move towards something familiar. I don't know how it happens, but that's the truth. It's all you know. It's all you know, and a lot of people just don't get help and a lot of people don't talk to anybody. Yep. And I mean, that's what your foundation does. And I mean, you guys can go, we click the link and go look at the foundation site. And there's so many avenues for help there. There is. To help people and for you to help. If you are a survivor or you have a survivor in your life and you want them to have a pathway forward, then you come and you donate here so that we can do that. Or you come and you sign up, sign to just get our newsletter and to be on the list to be counted. I'm a survivor. I'm not going to tell my story to anybody publicly. I'm never doing what Jan just did today. I can find, but I want somebody to know that I'm one of those numbers. I'm one of the 60 million plus plus adult survivors, which does not take into account how many of our children, twins, teens, and young adults are being assaulted and abused right now. It's not even taking into account. And if it really is, you know, one in four, we think it's closer to two in four women are girls. And if it's really, you know, one in, they say six, which I think it's more like one in four boys because of all the people who never disclose and don't talk about it, that's a lot of people. You know, that's 25% at the very minimum. 25% of all of our children, twins, teens, are being assaulted. They're being abused, they're being trafficked, exploited, hand harmed, and that just, that's just the mushroom. And we had to shrink this down. So that's why we're concentrating on those three things, awareness, community, and justice. - Amazing. - It's free survivor circle. Just go to my foundation and then put slash circle. So Jan Broberg Foundation slash circle. - Well, just a lot of Mike should have put in the description. - Yeah, and come there and, and be with other survivors, other childhood trauma survivors. And it doesn't matter if you're male, female, it doesn't matter if you're gay, by trans, we don't care, we love you. We want you to know you're not alone and what happened to you really does matter and it really does impact your life. And without other people who can, who can, you know, understand because we've been there, it's really hard to heal in isolation. We really don't believe it's possible. It's even been scientifically proven. It's not possible. You can do some things. But as long as you're isolated and you're still living in that aftermath of that, but we have a great, everything is inside the circle. We have a great program. It's like a recovery, trauma recovery program. And you do it in a small group, you know, like eight to 10 people in a little cohort. It's called time trauma interrupted, mitigated. We are doing the remitigating that trauma and expressing it. So trauma interrupted, mitigated, expressed is our trauma recovery. It's the framework work that you could kind of compare to other like AA programs or something. But, you know, it's, you have a few other people in there that get it. You're doing some narrative therapy. You're doing some, you know, you're doing a bunch of things in just that one hour or that 90 minutes a week. You deserve it for one thing. Give yourself that time. And if you can't afford some of the other kinds of therapies that cost money, some day we're going to have sanctuaries for survivors. And in those sanctuaries, there will be EMDR provided. There will be, you know, therapists. There will be our own time program, but you'll be able to do it in person, you know. We want to, we have, we have a lot of things that we are already doing. And they're basically putting together like this online model of how we could actually help survivors, domestic violence survivors, who most likely have a history of abuse somewhere along the way before they got to that. But a place where you can come, you can live, you can be with the animals, you know, we want a sanctuary like that. And we want them all over the United States and all around the world. That's amazing. So that's, I mean, you guys know where to look at the foundation. Do you have any other, anything else you want to talk about? Let's see, I have a podcast. I'm going to find people listening to that and subscribing. That would help us, because we'll put it on screen, but we're going to find it everywhere. Wherever you find podcasts, it's called trauma interrupted. Yes. With Jan Broberg. Amazing. You're hostess, right? Yes. And what we do is we tell other people's stories. We do interview survivors. We also interview clinicians, doctors, people that have expertise in trauma-informed practices and seeing what works and how to help. Most of them have their own stories, too. So we always find out that, oh, yeah, that started with my own childhood trauma. And now I'm a, I'm a this and I'm a that. And I'm helping other people. So we have that, you know, survivor's clinicians. And then, you know, an expert or something that's written a book or we have a lot of that. Yeah. Maybe you'll come on my podcast someday. Yes. I would love to. Really? I would love to. I have. Oh, my gosh. Sorry. Amazing. Good. Okay. And we're going to set it up. For sure. Yes. We're so lucky. Thank you. I'm so sorry. I'm so honored that our story has touched my heart in so many ways. Oh. I know. It's not. See, I made it through almost not. I'm trying not to cry. But I just, I love everything you've done and I really appreciate it. Thank you. And it's really amazing. I made it so. Yes. That's really good. You did a good job. I'm always crying from like sentence one. No, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. And because I see you, I see, I know, whether I know, or I just know, because when you have the heart to do what you do and to interview people like me and to talk about, you know, these true crime stories, I think almost all of them have an element of this in them. Yes. And it's. Yes. And it is a crime. And it is. And it has touched our lives. You know, personally. Mm-hmm. And then also people that we love. Yes. and I appreciate that you're tender and you're a real person. I am sorry. So I was like, I just, I guess I got to be a rockman. I can't, at the end, instead of this. That's okay. Yeah, that's okay. Maybe she even more beautiful. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much for being on and and you know where to find her. And yeah, thank you, Chris. This was a true pleasure. Yeah, me too. You're a remarkable young woman. Thank you. You're, you have a lot of good that you've done already. And I can see how much more there is to come. And I just hope I can be a little part of absolutely that. Absolutely. Those sorts of things. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.