Ep. 112: Leading Marketing in a Decentralized Unit

Hi, I'm a former higher ed Samo and I have a confession to make. I actually think that being the chief marketing officer within a college may be even better preparation for becoming a chief marketing officer that reports to a president. I think in part because you are reporting to someone who may not fully understand marketing or understand its value and you're having to make that case on a regular basis in the way that a CMO might need to make if their president hasn't yet been convinced of the value of marketing. My guest this week is Nate Jorgensen. We're going to be having a conversation about how to lead from a decentralized office, how to work with a centralized office, and on the flip side, how can a centralized office work more closely with those decentralized communicators. Nate is a higher ed marketer who currently serves as the chief of marketing and enrollment communications manager for the Ohio State University College of Nursing and one of my favorite humans of higher ed. So I hope that you enjoy this show. We end up hearing and finding the story, the real story to tell behind what they're telling. Like they might say, oh, I got into med school and they're a biomedical engineering student. They're like, well, that's not something I hear every day. And once in my career, someone came into my office and they said, hey, you should meet my friend. He's graduating with a degree in computer science and he types with his toes. And yeah, and so I said, please stop talking because I need to go find a better writer for this story. You're listening to confessions of a higher ed CMO with Jamie Hunt, your source for insight and inspiration on the issues shaping higher ed marketing. From AI and branding to enrollment strategy and leadership, each episode explores the ideas, challenges, and opportunities facing today's marketing leaders. Let's get into it. Hey Nate, welcome to the show. Hi Jamie, thank you so much for having me. I've been wanting to have Nate on the show for I don't know four years now, but he's keeps going on other shows and I'm trying to create some distance between when Nate is on other shows. And when he comes on mine, so I can like tap into his popularity. So this is, this is exciting to have you. So when I met you Nate, you were a college communicator at University of Cincinnati and I recruited you to come and lead academic marketing communications at Miami University and we worked together for like 15 minutes before I moved to ODU, but you've had like several stints now as a communicator that's embedded within a college. And I'm really curious for those who are not in that situation, how is that different from working in the Central Markham office? It's messy, I'll say. And there's a certain part of you that has to be okay with that. I have an abnormal tolerance for it and tolerance is the right word, but like I'm just okay with that. And I think that I have a unique perspective when it comes to that. I've seen the challenges, especially starting out on the university web team as you well know from your expertise. Selling quote unquote anything website related that is passed out among the university that is seen as something that is being dictated. And perhaps it is at a certain point. Everyone hates that. And in my first role in doing so, I was literally the person going out, doing the training and letting everyone know that that's happening. So right away, I learned that I can do that and I can survive that and that I'm okay and maybe pretty good at getting people eventually on board for doing things that are somewhat centralized at the very least. And I think on the college side, what someone wouldn't know who hasn't been there. Because then when I went into the college world, I realized there, if you don't have the trust of the dean and the leadership and especially the senior faculty, it's just not going to be a good fit. And so that is just super important where if you were to ask me right at the conclusion of only working at the university level for some time, I'd be like just show them what it is and tell them this is what we're doing. And then it's like, yeah, no, that doesn't doesn't work at all. And I made all those mistakes along the way. And so it really is, it's more personal, it's more rewarding. I'd say, though, too, because, you know, it kind of starting out with people who are initially going to be like, no, that's awful. And I hate it. Whatever it is, I hate it. It's an interesting challenge. And I happen to be passionate and interested in those things like higher ed web and higher ed marketing and communications where I see the huge value in shared resources and shared initiatives that can move everyone forward. And it's like if everyone just comes in 10%, it makes such a big difference where I think people have the misconception that, oh, we're going to have to move all the way over to doing it this way. And everything's going to have to be read, right? And it's like, well, yeah, the red part, yes. But there's a lot of leeway there where maybe we're just not initially thinking that way. So I really liked that role. I like showing the value of all of that. And I would just say maybe lastly with that, it really depends on where your dean or your supervisor is in their career and their journey within their job. I was hired by someone at Cincinnati who was in an interim dean position. And we really worked well together. Really were on the same page as far as understanding each other while not under, he was, he was a rocket scientist. So what am I going to understand of that? You know how little that number is? But then I can explain things to him in a way that works for him and what he needs to accomplish. He needs to have the support of the faculty or that doesn't work for his job. And in the end, especially in my first time at University of Cincinnati, we really benefited from having a strong relationship with the central team. And then when I was fortunate enough to be hired by you at Miami, I took that and worked with the individual colleges there really trying to use that as an example of how it can work and to various extent of success we can say. But it is good and it is a good thing overall to all be on the same page, to be communicating, to be working together and and have a really strong working relationship on all of those goals rather than just saying, hey, here's the thing, everybody implement up. Yeah. My only experience with not being on a central team was when I was the director of web strategy and digital media or something like that at Radford University. And weirdly, it was central in the sense that we served the whole campus, my team. We did all social all web, all digital. If it had a pixel, it was us, the app, the mobile website, website, social media, multimedia, all the things. So we served like the whole campus with those things, but my office was housed within the division of information technology. And so there was this sort of sense of being separate from central that I felt like in some cases bought us credibility for that feels weird to say. But then there was also I think the leadership of the division was so different from the leadership I had at the previous institution. So where I came from that leader was very much the we will bully this through. If you don't want to do it, that's too bad. You will do it because I said so. And Danny Kemp, who was my boss at Radford, was very much like we want people to come alongside us and to, you know, come along on this journey with us. And we want to make the case and help them to see. And yes, at the end of the day, they are going to have to use the same CMS. And yes, at the end of the day, that does mean stuff is locked down. And yes, at the end of the day, they're going to have to follow social media policies, et cetera. But we have to, we need to approach it as like having a dialogue versus just sort of pushing it through. And I would say, and you kind of leaned into this idea of what misperceptions people have. What I felt was a misperception was that the idea that the decentralized communicators aren't as good as the people in the central office. Have you experienced that misperception before? That's such a great question because I don't know, I guess, I, you know, that is a thing for sure. Like when you go, we were just talking, I was talking with one of the facilities. people here and he always wears a college of nursing polo because he's like, I need that authority when I go into meetings and I I need that too because then it's like you go into the big marketing meeting and no one knows who you are. And you know in my experience at University of Cincinnati most illustrated that I guess where I think I did they they could say whether there's this true or not like I just kind of a sub said like hey we're we're open for working with you do you want to try things I you know having been at the university level I know it's hard to approach people sometimes like there's that fear of like oh we're all going to hate it and it's like that. It's like that the loud minority is going to hate it no matter what and then there's 85% of us who are just like just tell us the thing and and we'll we'll do it. And that's a really interesting thing and I guess I've just experienced is all I can say I've seen the best work come out of colleges. Even at the university level the podcast at Miami that I was so obsessed with it came out of the college of education and things like that stories that that bubble up from people who are right in with the students and faculty it's like all that is the great story that illustrates that selling point of the university. And so I don't know it's just different and I've at least matured a small amount I will not say more than that but a small amount enough to just realize that. What where that good stuff comes from doesn't matter it matters that you get it and I know that I've at least worked all throughout my 20 plus years and higher ad now with like I've just always seen people as experts in their particular area and that might be a narrow quote unquote area but it's a very hard area to understand and to know all the nuances. All the nuances about and all of the media involved with it and all of the perspective students and what they're looking for so yeah it's just different but that is such an interesting point that I bet there is that feeling out there and I know I always have felt like oh I'm not doing enough I need to try to move up and I need to that's when I contacted you begging for a job was what I was like. I want to be a CMO and then like it was two years later from that statement I was like I never want to be a CMO. And that's why it took you two years just watching me for six months should have been enough to well that's when it concluded and only was reinforced after that till but I guess that's the journey that people go on and that I hope. As I'm I really hope like this is my job that I retire from and I don't know what that will happen but that's how I feel and I hope that as an industry we all get a better understanding and maybe people coming into it in the way that I did have a better story told to them of you know the CMO is not the best. Not the best thing to be for just the sake of being the Seattle it might be it might be for you in your particular situation but there's just so much that's available and so much that's happening and so much that needs to be done to tell the story of higher education and I had to literally never thought of that until this conversation but that I think that's a huge thing. Yeah I think what I have seen at a couple of the different institutions where I've been in the central office and perhaps it all stems back to that leader that I mentioned earlier that was doing things all wrong was this sort of like well you know they're they're just in the college if they were at our level they'd be in the central office and that person taught me so many things about how not to be like that was it was like almost literally the like. WJD and then conclude with like do the opposite like whatever it is do the exact opposite but I think so this might stem from her but I've worked with some really great decentralized communicators who are just absolutely at the peak of their game you and I both worked with Jen O'Brien at Miami of Ohio perfect example yes all just absolutely all star she could run. American universe yeah she's phenomenal and and a decentralized communicator and so I hope that that like misconception is like just that really terrible boss that I had I want to pivot just a little bit when you're in a college when you're embedded in a college I feel like you likely build a much closer relationship with the faculty and probably to with the students because that you're in an academic building probably and you're interacting with the students a lot more what are some of the advantages that come with that. Yeah so in my previous role at University of Cincinnati we had an amazing team and engineering of student ambassadors I have never seen anything like it before or since it was I think if it was paid it was not paid well and I think it was unpaid and it was just people who are like it's the few good men line that I live my life by quotes from a few good men pretty much where she's like they're fanatical about being Marines and that's like they're fanatical about being engineering students at the University of Cincinnati and they will get up and talk in front of anyone and I just learned so much from them and them sharing like this is just who we are and we when we're not studying in labs we're sitting around talking about engineering and so I just saw such huge value in that that isn't as easy in like the equivalent of like tour guides at the university level where it's just maybe too broad to be able to narrow down on those really interesting stories that you would want to build on further and the other thing that I found as a part of that is that because you end up establishing a rate of communication with them and hearing their stories as storytellers or writers or whatever it may be we end up hearing and finding the story the real story to tell behind what they're telling like they might say oh I got into med school and they're a biomedical engineering student you're like well that's not something I hear every day once in my career someone came into my office and they said hey you should meet my friend he's graduating with a degree in computer science and he types with his toes and yeah and so I said please stop talking because I need to go find a better writer for this story so those stories are just like out there and those words are being said and it's like if there needs to be a storyteller nearby to hear that story and then sometimes be like what they're saying isn't the story that detail that someone shared in the story is what the story is because it ties into what the university is really promoting right now or what's in popular culture right now or what is in politics right now whatever it may be so that's a huge advantage and something is just so much fun because then you really get to know that the actual story behind things rather than more of the tour guide that is those are great ambassadors for a university or an institution but it's just not quite the same it sounds probably a bit like when you are a general assignment reporter versus a beat reporter and dig in and get that meet and get like the full picture of the story versus more surface level that makes perfect sense to me I'm really curious Nate you're one of the most collaborative and ego-free people that I know I mean I don't know if I've worked with anyone who has less ego about the work that he does and I'm curious for people who are listening who are in those decentralized offices what is your recommendation for building a more collaborative relationship with the central office? I would recommend maybe just making it clear you're open for business there are so many walls put up in the silos of higher education that are decades old and they were from three people before in the job that no one even remembers anymore who's still there and it's like well I can't talk to academics in the College of Science because they won't return our emails. And it's like, yeah, that was three years ago. And two people have been in that position since then. They probably won't even know they would just answer. And we do that to ourselves so much. And I guess that's where I've just always been willing and almost excited to be -- I'm a really big team person. And it's because I was a weird, obsessed -- I wanted to be a professional athlete when I was young and I failed in spectacular fashion in front of my family and friends and everyone. But what I took from that that I still use every day is that, like, I don't care how many points I score. I cannot express to you how little I care how many points I score. I want our points to be more than the opposing team's points. And I'm always looking for examples of that. It is the only way that as a smaller team or a team within a bigger team that you are going to outperform someone else. If you are trying to get a collection of the most resources and the most talented people and the best of everything, you're going to pay for it and you have to have the resources to do it. Where magic happens is when people are not concerned about their selves but they're concerned about, "Am I doing my job the best I can possibly do it?" And a lot of times that's you not looking the best. And it's you going in and knowing I'm going to go into this meeting and I'm going to lose. And I'm going to lose big time. And I'm going to look like a jerk. And you're, this is overstated, of course. But it's like you're losing a battle to win the war. I need that person on board with me. Sometimes I really want it to be their idea, whether it's an idea that I have or not. And it's something that I've only grown more passionate about since we work together. And it's almost like at an epidemic level in our world and in many worlds where that just doesn't exist anymore. And I will not accept that. I will not ever be okay with it. But I, enough you had to transfer schools to be able to keep playing football because the kids in his high school were so relentlessly picking on him for being too dedicated to winning. And I'm just like unacceptable, unacceptable with a period at the end. There's nothing at the end of that that you can say. That's the very job of a high school football player is to do that. And anyone who is worried about something else is not doing the right thing. And it got so bad that he had to do that. So sorry, that just touched me. But that's how bad I really think it is. And that's something that I have preached since I interviewed here. Was that this is our team. Our team comes first. We're going to be aggravatingly slow in what we're planning. And we're going to be doing it right now. We're going to be doing it right now. Across me, they are aggravated at times. And I get it. Because it's like, what are we doing? What are we doing? And I get to certain points with things. And we get to certain points. And then I go, well, I want to make sure this works for you. All I want to make sure this is what you want to be doing. And what you're best at. And what gets you to your goals. And if that doesn't match, we need to talk a little more. We need to talk a little more. How do you balance the central brand and the central messaging with college specific messaging and I know that like how I do that, but I'd love to hear your take on that. Yeah, my take is that pretty simply that we everyone has to accept the university brand guidelines. I think there are conversations in my job happening about that right now, about logos that people want, that they want to keep and everything like that. And it's a hard thing. I am not denying that at all. And it is hard and challenging for so many reasons. And a lot of times, especially what I'm finding here at such a large university with such a large medical center and a large college of nursing and college of medicine on and on and on. There are many things that like fall between those things and is there a system there to support each of those identities, so to speak. And so maybe that is the best balance that there can be. I'm working with some people right now on trying to help people understand that, you know, my, my stance, my experience that, you know, fighting that battle or trying to get something unique or in a different color or whatever it may be. I haven't seen it be worth the work or the division that it can cause because the logo is so great that it needs to be that can happen. It could happen in certain circumstances. But I think that's just one of those things where I hope that just like eventually people moving to a centralized web experience that maybe has happened over the last 15 to 20 years. There's that hopefully something that that's more just kind of understood and there are so many other ways to stand out. And if you invest in telling stories about the impact of your research, if that's what if it's if it's your research lab that you want an identity for. And then then invest in that because that's what's going to move the needle more. And then the only thing on the other side, I would just say is that like for the central unit, like we need to make sure that we have something for them at the same time, because I have run into that on both sides where it's like, well, that's something that shared between colleges, so we don't have that level of logo. We're approved format. So you're kind of just, we don't have anything for you. And it's like, yeah, neither of those really work. Let's work and find a way to get people what they need. But yeah, it all just goes back, I guess, to just being on the same team with stuff like that, realizing the recognition that comes from the bigger institution, and then also the institution, being sure to have really good support for all of those are varying needs that can happen there. Like how do you not leverage the Ohio States brand, you know, I guess, so when I was an early CMO, I would never describe myself as not having ego, I made a lot of mistakes, I learned a lot. And certainly over the years, that continued to evolve. But I do think that I had a little more openness to the idea that the colleges need to have the ability to become distinct, particularly I would say the professional schools, the business schools, engineering, nursing, you know, the programs that are trying to recruit separate from the Central admissions office. And I think it is completely possible to leverage that top level brand, while also having messaging that's distinctly about you that fits within institutional brand pillars. Like how do you shape those institutional brand pillars to fit the narrative that works for your college. And I think we've made it be harder than it needs to be like many things in higher ed, we've made it harder than it needs to be, it is possible to do these things. If you approach it from a collaborative spirit, if there's a lot like ego gets left at the door, all of that, it is possible to have really strong sub brands. And I would even say when I was at some of the institutions I've been at, like having slightly different color palettes, yes, you have the standard main institutional colors, you cannot change those please, if you're listening to me, and you are at a school where the school colors are red and black do not ask if you can have green and say Jamie Hunt told you that that was okay. That's not drop down the eyedropper tool and step away and listen, right. But to have a secondary palette that maybe uses, you know, a couple other accent colors that are distinct to your college. My dream when I was at Radford must to have each college to have sort of its own accent colors that you knew when you were on that site versus on a different site at the institution. I mean, institutions where every college is in own CMS and has a completely different look and feel I'm not sure I'm on board with that exactly, but I do think that there is rooms for a different flavor. I used to describe it and I don't know if you ever heard me describe it as this like we're all we've decided for ice cream and every college can kind of pick up which sprinkles they put on top that makes them who they are. So if you're listening and you think it's not possible to come to compromise or agreement on this, I think it is. I think it just requires kind of that let's work together on figuring that out. Or in the from the central perspective like let's be open to our colleagues figuring that out. And that is so well said, and I do of course remember you saying that and that the great concluding line to that was always like you can be vanilla or rocky road, but you can't be tacos or I don't know if that was the. And that says it so well like okay, let's all be realistic and I've even I've been left out of rooms many times, but because of this specifically like I've just been like let's just try it. What what would happen if we tried this and like just saw if you know on social media was it worth it did it did it get a connection with this particular audience because it is somewhat unique within the brand. And then it's like all that opens up a candle weren't I get all of that to but it also like we're not advancing on con after landing at Normandy like right it's not the end of the world if this didn't work out and we can all be realistic and hopefully that is something we can do. Yeah, I think the slippery slope fades get thrown alone that's a fallacy for a reason like we all say that I still say that and then it's like yeah it's called a slippery slope fallacy for a reason there can be degrees of things. Right right right okay I want to do some quick takes want to ask you a series of questions one what is one thing every decentralized communicator should stop doing. Thinking of central as the enemy and just don't be a jerk that goes across the board but I know that there are people who work in any office that works within a university you're all in a sub office of the board of trust. Right right and and the the whole community of the university and so just don't be a jerk there there are so many times that people get in their own way of just what could be so good and good for everyone but it might contradict something that was said 10 years ago and that kind of just goes back into that whole thing. And so I would say just be on board generally not not without exception but be on board be willing to try things be adaptable and then do your best to explain the goals and even the tensions on both sides and I think that's something that I really enjoyed in my previous role at a college was you know something was being. Handed down so to speak again and it's like yes I could tell the Dean then this is what's going on and I and I understand that you are not hearing great things about it right now and we can we can be a stick in the mud on this if if we need to be but here are the advantages to not being a stick in the mud on it and kind of like you said before you know whether this is written or unwritten it's like it's happening no matter so like. We can say a lot of things, and maybe we need to. to keep people satisfied with the direction we're moving in internally. And I get that. So then again, it's all that balance, but just being on board, just talking openly and advocating for, you know, I bet that many teams centrally don't realize that their biggest advocates are the college directors because they hear from the 10% who hate everything. And I'm saying that obviously hyperbolic way, but that is just the case. And many things have kept moving because of those directors and people working within the colleges. And so there's just so much more opportunity there to enhance everyone's work if we would do that. Well, I think your point about being on board, I think that goes kind of both ways. I think if I were going to answer this question from the centralised side, I would say, what is one thing every centralised office should stop doing as it relates to decentralised communicators? And I would say, stop forgetting they exist. And that's speaking to like a a little bit of a thing that I am guilty of, like if it's not right in front of me, it doesn't exist. Kind of a thing. And so if you are prone to forgetting to get their input or to bring them into a discussion, just remember how embedded they are with so many people that you need to sign onto what you're asking for change. So if you're rolling out a new brand and you have not engaged your college communicators, that's problematic because they're going to sell that brand to their deans, to their faculty, to their students. They're going to be hearing firsthand those gripes about it. The gripes are going to go to them first before ever goes to the CMO. So having a really close relationship with those communicators, I think is essential. A hundred percent. And then that communication goes right from the dean to the administration. So like then it bypasses you and then it has momentum. And I will completely admit to this as something that's not good, it's like when you think about sending that communication, it's like, do I want, can I have this, can I emotionally keep myself together and have this conversation right now and because it's hard and because especially when you know there's skepticism there and you know that there's pressure for you to get this done and to get it done soon. And that that only adds to everything that's involved. And this is sincerely me speaking from things that that I've worked through in the past, where sometimes it's just like, I just need to go home. It's a Friday and I need to get some rest and get back at it. And then it's like, you know, two weeks later you're like, yeah, I never communicated that, that I and that's not good. So I would just say for me on the college side now too, like just let people communicate sometimes too. And you don't always have to just immediately shoot back to be like, well, this is the thing that we've tried this before and that's not going to work. And it's like, yeah, you probably have, but still it might work. Those two things can be true. And so just like everything else that I hope people get and myself included is just like, let's just be on board as much as as possible for each of us. All right. So what is one hill you'll die on? The one hill that I will die on and I promise this is not a cop out. The one hill that I will die on is that there is no hill to die on. I love it. Good. I know why I hired you to be honest with you. What was that? Like, I don't even remember how long ago. I feel like I've known you my whole entire life. Me too, but it was a beginning of 22 is when the bangles went to the Super Bowl. That's what everyone can remember. You included as the timeframe. Yeah. So if you want to like, if you're a listener and you want to circle a date on your calendar, just go back and look and then. Yeah. Every anniversary of Nate starting to work for me. Yeah. Watch Kansas City loons. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What is your hottest higher ed take? Oh, I have several, but I will give you one. And I will give more of you like higher ed is doing its best work ever. And higher ed marketing is doing its best work ever. And maybe the best work it will ever do. I love that. Expand on that. So there is a dialogue that is out there of concerns at the very least. I think we're allowed to say about so many things about affordability, about just anything. And the challenges are real and everyone needs to be better in every way they can possibly be. But when you look at higher education in this country, it's hard for me to see a case where someone doesn't have an opportunity. And isn't that freaking incredible? And this is from my experience in work, let's say, and I'm not an example that anyone should live by. But I was broke on food stamps and on Medicaid when I got a job at Wright State on the university web team. And from there, I have worked at four different state institutions. This one at Ohio State I've moved for. But I probably could have gotten by with a long commute. And I've done all of that from the same house. And that's crazy. And that's in Dayton, Ohio. Right. That's not it's not Boston. Like where you can't you can't turn around and there's a different college. Yep. While also understanding there are so many issues. There's so much history. There are so many things that are unfair and that I have every advantage you could possibly have in doing the best that I can do. But I really do struggle sometimes with like, okay, well, here's a here's a pretty light lift for the next stop to get a certificate to go to community college to go to the professional career center. And then for high school students now to take college credit while they're in high school. And many times graduate high school with an associate's degree. And so I think there is always that idea and the very easy argument that points to the Stanford's and the Harvard's and how they admit and what they do and they do what they do very well. But that's they're not the access place also. And it's like, no, you're not going to get right into Harvard. I agree. I have seen students from Dayton go to Wright State ace every class they took and end up at Harvard. And I saw the student body president at Wright State now be one of the leaders among everything that Arizona State is doing and moving and shaking in the higher ed space. And that is someone from Anna local high school north of Dayton. So I can't find a way that higher education doesn't work in a very reasonable sense. And again, yes, there are challenges. Yes, there are all of those things. But what that reality in my opinion is compared to what the talking points are now are so far apart that the other one, the other side, it just has no basis in reality whatsoever. And then just very quickly, like the work that frankly you, you and everyone that puts out content like this is unreal for moving the entire industry forward. And it's super unique. I don't think it happens everywhere. There's not like super market pricing professionals putting up podcasts on how they do it best. They would never do that. And we all get together and just freely share everything with our competitors. I was just talking to Michigan State the other day, right? And it's like, I don't know. So we don't stop as a community of higher education and ever say, hey, we're doing this and we're doing it well. And we are. And we never stop and say, hey, we're really kicking butt on this marketing and communication of higher education. We never do that. All we say is that the million ways that we fail and we do. But we do things really well and it does a lot of good and we never say that. I love that so much, Nate. It's such an inspiring thought and I feel like we sometimes forget that the distrust in higher education is more about the distrust generally in institutions. All institutions are losing trust and as a former journalist, speaking to a former journalist, I actually point the finger back to the loss of local newspapers that have pushed us into a mindset where we're following national politics versus local news. We're not a part of a community anymore because when there's no source to get sort of that community-centered news, community journalism is so freaking vital and I think you can trust straight line between the mistrust of institutions and the loss of journalism and and what how journalism held institutions accountable and I don't mean institutions like institutions of higher education, but I mean like the government, business, higher education, K-12 education, medicine, all of these sort of big things, I think there's a straight line between them. Yeah, I've never thought of that but there there has to be and there's no one ever saying like, yes, what you just said is true. There's this thing happening where there is controversy over what was said in a classroom or whatever it may be or way worse that does exist. But then there's never that person saying like well they churned out 900 really qualified awesome graduates last year who are doing this, this, this and this and what are you proposing in its place and it's like that conversation is just not happening and even us within it until you ask the question, I'm not doing anything about it like we're never stopping and thinking like yeah we're doing it and we're doing it very well and we need to recognize that because there all of the bad stories exist too. At every large institution there is a bad story in the last 10 years and those things are equally true but all of the good things are true as well and it doesn't make the make the bad things okay but it makes the good things actually be reality as well. So this has been a fantastic conversation Nate, if somebody wants to chat with you where can they find you? LinkedIn is the best place and I'm always happy to connect, I just recently started a group for college directors, communicators and marketers within universities that is my big creative name for it too is college marketers within universities really zings. So we'd love to have you as part of that group, anyone from any office because that's I guess just part of that like let's keep conversations going let's keep solutions coming where otherwise they wouldn't have been connected and that's what so many of you all you especially do such a great job of and just had the idea to start that so connect with me please reach out and if that's of interest let me know too. I loved that you created that group that's actually what inspired me to reach out because I saw that that you had created it and I do feel like it's very necessary I think there's space for more niche groups that aren't quite as broad as higher ed marketer but you know how about higher ed marketer in this category or that category or maybe by audience or fill in the blank but to have people you can bounce things off of who've maybe walked in your shoes before or felt that challenge before I think that's so great and I'm not surprised that it is you Nate who who started that listeners you can always find me on LinkedIn at Jamie Hunt J.I.M.E.H.U.N.T. you can also find me on my website at solpire ed.com and you can find my book at heartoverhypebook.com next week's episode I think that the audience for this episode will really enjoy that one because the next episode is looking at intentionally decentralizing a centralized communications office so I think if you enjoyed this episode you'll enjoy that one as well and until next time let's go bust some silos listeners can I ask you a quick favor if you enjoy this show take a moment to give it a rating on Apple podcasts for Spotify I'm a type A Aldous daughter so positive feedback is basically my love language I also genuinely love hearing from listeners you can find me at LinkedIn at Jamie Hunt that's J.I.M.E.H.U.N.T. and yes I am named after the bionic woman you can also find me at solpire ed.com say hello share a thought pitch and idea don't be shy I genuinely love hearing from you