EP. 111 | Compliance Built In, Not Bolted On: Inside Zodia Custody's Institutional Playbook with Sophie Bowler

I'm Erie Redbord and this is TRM Talks. I am Global Head of Policy at TRM Labs. At TRM, we provide blockchain intelligence software to support law enforcement investigations and to help financial institutions and cryptocurrency businesses mitigate financial crime risk within the emerging digital asset economy. Prior to joining TRM, I spent 15 years in the US federal government, first as a prosecutor at the Department of Justice and then as a Treasury Department official, where I work to safeguard the financial system against terrorist financiers, weapons of mass destruction proliferators, drug kingpins and other rogue actors. On TRM Talks, I sit down with business leaders, policy makers, investigators and friends from across the crypto ecosystem who are working to build a safer financial system. On this, TRM Talks, I sit down with Sophie Bauer of Zodia Custody. But first, inside the lab, where I share data-driven insights from our blockchain intelligence team. On today's inside the lab, we're addressing one of the most serious applications of blockchain intelligence, disrupting child sexual abuse material networks. These networks often rely on crypto subscription payments, recurring access fees and private community monetization models. Financial flows can reveal recurring subscription behavior, consolidate in wallets collecting proceeds and distribution of revenue across operator clusters. Crypto becomes the connective layer in globally distributed networks, linking users, operators and infrastructure across borders. While actors attempt anonymity, repeated payment patterns and liquidity touchpoints provide investigative leads for CSAM investigators, when those funds intersect with exchanges or service providers' enforcement gains leverage. The financial layer does not replace traditional investigative methods, it strengthens them. It creates a quantifiable record that supports attribution and prosecution. In cases involving direct harm to the most vulnerable victims, financial traceability becomes a critical component of disruption. And now, Sophie Baller. Today I am joined by the Chief Risk and Compliance Officer at Zodiacustity Sophie Baller. Sophie, thank you so much for joining TRM Talks. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be here. I'm just so thrilled to have you and have this conversation. I feel like when I look around this space, you are really one of those voices at that intersection of the building and compliance. I feel like that's the sweet spot of the people who are listening to the show. Tell me how did you get started. Tell me a little bit about your journey. You've had a really, I feel like, unique journey from the policy making really through the business side and certainly with a focus always on compliance on mitigating risk. Yeah, no. So my whole career has been rooted in financial crime compliance. So particularly AML and sanctions. And as you said, I started off in politics. I actually was in it. I got an internship working for a member of the European Parliament from the UK. And I really went for him because he was working on organised crime related legislation. So I worked on organised crime related legislation. I actually really, really handily, I ended up working on the fourth anti-money and laundering directive, which was one of the key pieces of AML legislation across Europe. And that was like the turning point in Europe. So it just captured me. And I think from then on, it made me realise that money laundering, there is an ultimate crime underneath. I actually really saw the impact that that was having on society. So that captured me. I then carried that through working in second line functions, back in London, I moved back from Brussels to build out those compliance functions. And then in consulting, working for global banks and now at Zodia. And for me, it's always been linked to that greater cause, if you know what I mean, for what I'm doing, because it is ultimately, you know, money laundering is disguised in the origin of a list of activity. And I think in big organisations, it's really easy to lose sight of that. You know, you get bogged down in policies and gap analyses and licenses and remediations. But for me, it's always, I always try to bring it back to that, remembering the start, greater cause for what I'm doing. And then I think, you know, when I was introduced to digital asset six or seven years ago, it added a new dimension. So not only could I take what I'd learnt from traditional finance and really try to do it right from the start in digital assets. But it was the chance to help that industry mature and legitimise itself. And of course, you know, blockchain technology, tokenised asset, stable coins, they're shaping the future. So again, that's that, that big a cause for me. I love that. You know, we do think about money laundering as moving the money. How do we stop that from happening? How do we follow and tear around? We talk about tracking and tracing illicit proceeds. But really those illicit proceeds are funds that are stolen from a victim that's possibly someone's life savings. Maybe that's being used for a potential terrorist attack that's going to kill people, right? Like you take it back to the human element. It does feel a lot more real. And I love that, right? It's not just like, hey, we're checking these boxes of things we're supposed to do. It's actually like, we're stopping real bad guys who have done bad things to people. And I think that is the thing. You can quite easily get so busy, you can lose sight of that. But there is that greater cause. And I think that's what's carried it through for me. And that started way back when in the U of the Parliament. So yeah, it's been pretty critical. There's a defining part of my crowd saying, so tell me if this is right. So like you identified a member of the EU parliament that you felt like had a background in a financial crime and an interest in going after organized crime. That's cool, right? That you had the forethought and like that was a number of years ago, you identified a very specific person who had a very specific interest. Talk me through that. Like am I right? Is that how this went down? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I was actually working, I was currently working in Australia in politics then moved back to the UK. And I knew that I just wanted to keep working in politics. And I was just researching all of the members of the European Parliament. And I found one that had the background in all of this and he was really focused on anti-Ulvanised crime. So I actually went to see him speak. And I just went to him and tried to start speaking to him and said, I'd really love an internship. And he was like, yeah, getting to touch with me. And it just went from there. And then next thing, you know, I'm probably a month later moving to Brussels. So he was great. And that's how I got into it. I love that. Talk me through the journey to Zodia, right? Now, obviously you started to get this interest in digital assets, which I think is really consistent, right? It's a new way where bad actors are moving funds and sort of how do we stop that? But how did you sort of make your way to Zodia? Like what precipitated that move? So I was working in EY at the time. And I think it was back in 2020. The anti-Ulvanised legislation was updated to bring crypto firms into the scope. So then from then on, we used to get a lot of crypto firms coming towards needing support to develop their financial crime control environments, to get registrations. And then there was some of the big exchanges that were already struggling with regulatory action. So then they needed us to come and help and support address the regulatory action, help them, you know, deal with the findings and recommendations. So it just, it just captured me. It was something so different to banking. And then I started to, you know, research into it deeper. I'm really started to get into it. And I saw that actually this is, you know, the future of our financial markets, you know, this is actually the area that we need to be, to be focused on. And I think particularly from a financial crime perspective, I could see with blockchain analytics the benefits that that brought. And so yeah, it just captured me. And then I think from there, I just thought I have to stay in digital assets. And I knew that I wanted my career to continue from then onwards. It's awesome. You know, I joined Chair, I'm about, I don't know, five and a half years ago or so. You know, seven people, the space was tiny. Certainly the institutional piece was just, you know, there were a handful of teams out there. But Standard Charter essentially, the Zodia piece to it was one of those, was one of those pieces, like even that long ago, I remember getting in the space and kind of looking around like, who should I talk to? Who are the banks that are doing this? And Standard Charter is one of those that was really leaning in. And I think that it's interesting. You tell me if this is right, but for me, it was like, there was this like band of, of people out there at these different banks that were put like, I picture them in the basement somewhere, like some of the smartest people in the entire bank, but they were like, in the basement told to like mess around with digital assets. Do you feel like one? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It is because the founders of Zodia custody and Zodia markets, they of course were all in Standard Chartered and they were the ones developing it. They were in a back room somewhere, spending so many like years building it. And then they spun it out into the ventures and then they led those firms from then onwards. So no, absolutely. And I do think you write in saying, I think Standard Charter was one of the early ones. And look, I guess Standard Charter has developed so much in that regard now. They're really in the forefront of it. That's why I think Zodia is sort of really interesting, right? Because I think really what we talk now about is, you know, institutions moving, you know, looking to offer crypto assets, looking to custody, looking to bank crypto customers, whatever role banks are playing. But it's always like, you know, you got sort of your institutions, your financial institutions doing this with crypto and then you have sort of, you know, DeFi projects, you have exchanges, you have others, sort of more crypto native. I do feel like Zodia really fits somewhere in the middle there, which is kind of an interesting place to play right now, right? Like it's fully crypto and yet has these sort of institutional roots. Is that a fair way to describe this? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think we're diversifying quickly and we can move at scale, but we've really got that institutional DNA like built throughout us. not as a result, as you said, is because of our standard chartered ownership. And I think that's the key thing that's been really important to me actually personally, because it means my prior experience in traditional finance didn't stop when I moved into digital assets. It's very much carried forward. And I do see that DNA is clear throughout the whole of the business, you know, how everything's how we approach things, how we develop things. And anyone starting new in Zodew will know straight away that, you know, we have that DNA and that's the thing that defines us. So no, absolutely, you know, been able to leverage that DNA framework, tailor it to digital assets, and then enable us to scale and move quick and develop the products and innovate. I think it's just the best of both worlds ultimately. So yeah, we've really got that. I do feel like you guys sit in a really unique space within the ecosystem. Chief Risk and Compliance Officer, what is that role? Talk me through sort of your day to day. What are you doing at Zodew today? Yeah, so I started off as a Chief Compliance Officer in the UK, Beloro, and then I moved up to expand into risk, you know, some people would say, oh my gosh, why did you do that? So I think a lot of my day, as you can imagine, there's, we're entering the regulatory regime across all different jurisdictions now. So there's a lot of focus on licensing. So supporting all the compliance leads in the various jurisdictions around the licensing and, you know, building the frameworks. Because you know, it is quite a big step up, ultimately, you know, you know, you know, for example, meeker, that's really something that's really critical and has been a big focus for us. So I think, yeah, a lot of the enhancements to the risk management frameworks, to resilience frameworks, and the compliance frameworks, so supporting all of the different compliance offices and the risk offices there. And then I think trying to work in really closely with the product and the technology teams to further innovate and develop, because a key thing that we all know in the compliance field is that compliance has to be bought in early. And we want to innovate really quickly. We want to be developing our product pipeline. So I would say I spend a lot of the time working with the product and technology teams on that part, you know, trying to deliberate and assess what new products may look like and, you know, whether we can get those to market or not so that compliance is brought in right at the start. So it sort of pulls me in lots of different directions doing both compliance and risks and with all the licensing. But I guess I wouldn't have it any other way, you know, it's interesting to say the least. It's busy, but it's interesting. Amazing. You mentioned Meekah. Obviously a huge focus. And I imagine a focus for your job over the last, you know, a couple of years probably. You now have a Meekah license in Luxembourg. Talk to me a little bit about that process and how it ended up playing out. Oh my gosh. Yeah. After the category of things that have kept you up at night over the last couple of years. Yeah. I mean, that was, yeah, at one stage that was right at the forefront because we have registrations in both Luxembourg and Ireland. And of course, we had to make a decision, you know, where do we got our Meekah license? You can only realistically, you only really want to get it in one place. We decided on Luxembourg and, yeah, it was, I guess, a really extensive process. And I think it's just taught me so much. I mean, it goes without saying, but it isn't just policies. You know, Meekah stressed her governance, accountability, operational reality, and of course, not forgetting that Dora is inherently linked to Meekah and that introduces extensive requirements around operational resilience. And of course, that's not just a crypto piece of legislation. That is, you know, a board broader legislation for traditional finance. So it just forced us to be really precise about who controls what in the business, where decisions are made, where the ownership is and, you know, how are we so identified? Because of course, are your appendities one of, you know, one of six and like many of the firms, you'll have outsourcing within the firm. Technology may be provided from one element, you know, the maybe other services provided from elsewhere. So what it really resulted in is it required us to reorganize that, you know, make sure that our, you know, EU entity that's obtaining the license is the one that is ultimate, the custodian, custodian. So it was a big shift. I saw it in the organization as well, you know, we of course, in compliance. You know what the situation is, we've had that experience before, but moving from a money-nonging registered firm to a licensed firm, you know, it was quite, quite a shift in the organization. And but we've done it. I mean, it's, you know, we got it in December when we really pleased with that. And that's actually given us a great foundation as well for all of the license application. Amazing. I think almost all of our listeners will know me good. The marketing crypto assets legislation. It's really the market structure. It's the licensing regime for 37 member states across Europe. It's one of the most important crypto policies of regulations, legislation in the world. Dora may be less so. So would you sort of like just give your two minutes on Dora and how that kind of played into that process for you guys? Yeah. So it's just a linked piece of legislation. So it's the Digital Operational Resilience Act. And it just requires firms across all different facets to have controls in place to ensure they ultimately have resilience. You know, the regulators want to see that firms can, you know, be resilient and continue to provide the services to their clients under lots of different circumstances. So one example where there's lots of requirements that Dora introduces is around vendors. So it requires you to really have a robust risk management process around vendors. So embedding criticality assessments, you know, how critical are they to your business, implementing controls that are relevant to the risk that you've identified, having exit plans, updating the contracts, all these types of things, because ultimately, you know, in crypto as well, that there is a lot of outsourcing, but to vendors, you know, do it yourself. Although we've developed our own proprietary custody platform, of course, we need vendors like we don't develop our own hardware security modules. So the real focus is to ensure that if something happens, you can continue to provide services to your clients. So it's the full breadth of operational resilience. And it's very chunky. I must say, it's not to be underestimated for sure. Absolutely. It's interesting. I mean, you're doing, you know, at that point, you're doing multiple roles, right? You're working with a regulator on a license. So we have what we need in place. Yet you're also trying to do your job, which is to make sure that risk is off of your platform. And I imagine that was probably a lot. And it kind of speaks to where I was going to go with this. And that is, I've heard you say that your favorite thing about this space is how fast it's moving and how innovation and compliance is keeping up with the pace of financial flow, is it at internet speed? Talk to me about that. Like how do you see risk and compliance when you think about crypto and just in the speed of this thing? I mean, you know, every day, you know, all I do is think about how fast the stuff is moving. Yeah. And I think one thing that I still hear that's criticized about crypto is around its lack of transparency. But it is the transparency on the blockchain. That gives you so many more data points as a compliance officer than you would ever have in the traditional finance space. And I think it's that, it's that blockchain. And as you said, the speed that's enabled us to leap forward and innovate in this space and just make much more informed decisions, I would say, as a compliance officer on financial crime risk mitigation, because you just have some more meaningful information. So I think, you know, an a key one for me would be, as you said, you know, it's apologies of evolving really quickly, whether it's actions of Asian mixers, even, you know, social engineering and phishing attempts. Like there's lots of financial crime exploits in the digital assets space. But our ability is an industry to detect and respond so quickly, I think is amazing. And you just don't see that in traditional finance, especially, you know, the blockchain analysis providers, actually having that, that ability and that speed is so essential. And that's what's enabled myself and my compliance team is to, I guess, move much quicker and just make more informed decisions, ultimately on financial crime risk mitigation. It's awesome. You know, you hear this, you know, it's crypto anonymous thing that, you know, every time I hear, I think I just am terrible at my job, because I've been trying to explain this for five years or more. But I love your explanation, especially someone who had been in traditional, who has been in traditional finance to come out and say, "Hey, look, I'm a compliance officer. I'm a practitioner." And the visibility, the traceability, the trackability, a public blockchain, allow me to do my job much better. I think as well, like more generally, you know, we speak about how criminals are much further hedgemen. You know, they're ahead of governments, they're ahead of the regulation, they're ahead of industry. And but I do think because of the nature of the blockchain and the capabilities we have and we're building around that, I think we're much more in a position in crypto to keep pace with what criminals are doing and actually act fast. And I think, you know, of course, so do you as a member of the Beacon Network? That was a big example for me as to how we can just really act fast. And I just don't think you have that traditional finance. So I think crypto is really ahead and not God. Amazing. So TRM started Beacon because bad actors were frankly just supercharging their operations. And it was, I think, really two main things. One, just the pace of scams and these sort of really sophisticated transnational criminal networks that were deploying scam. So on people all over the world and to the Bybit hack, right? We saw North Korea essentially longer 1.5 billion from Ethereum to Bitcoin within a few days. And we realized just like bad guys are going to are moving faster than ever before and they're scaling. How can we move faster? And one of our first calls was to Zodia. And I think you personally to say, hey, we're putting together the Avengers. Would you guys join us with Binance and Coinbase and OKX and Ripple and Crackin and all these others? Talk to me about sort of why you jumped at that opportunity and how you see that type of real-time information sharing within the crypto ecosystem. I think it's because it really really captured me because it was just a true example. You know, we speak a lot about public private partnerships in the financial crime, compliant space. I was like, okay, this is actually it. You know, this is actually the true example of an effective PPP, you know? And so I just, I just thought, you know, we have to be a part of this. It's something that can actually make a real difference. And I could see the immediate benefits to, you know, as in in Zodia and my teams as to utilize that information to really make informed risk decisions around financial crime. And I think, you know, no matter how sophisticated the firm is or, you know, how well capitalized you are, you do need the information from all different firms, you know, you need connectivity. So it's just very aligned to what I and the rest of the team wanted to be part of. And it compliments our controls day to day. So, you know, there's often information that we get, you know, we would never have thought that something was happening. So I think it's just, it's just really beneficial day to day. And we can just act much more rapidly and it informs our own control. And it is this only in crypto story, right? Whether it's sort of the traceability, trackability or this real time alerting as funds are literally moving that you can send an alert and hopefully interdict those funds. That's an only in crypto kind of story, right? No, absolutely. Like I just can't think it just doesn't work like that in traditional finances. Very much after the fact, you know, often funds can have, can have gone ultimately. So to see something that's so real time and you can actually genuinely, you know, stop the funds and make a difference again is what sort of brings it back to me. I've actually that broader, the broader sort of reason that I'm here and actually, and actually seeing the benefits. So yeah, it's not, it's not something I think that could be seen in traditional finances. So it's a crypto thing. Similarly, you know, like when you're a chief compliance officer, you're thinking about people, you're thinking about tools. How do you think about sort of building out a compliance team? Whether it's the use of technology like TRM, whether it's sort of having the right people, executive buy and like, how did you think about building the capability at Zodiac? Yeah, I think for me was, I think the buy in was very key to start off with. And because, you know, we know and hear those things, you know, tone from the top. And I think one of the key things that I focused on when I got straight in there is to, you know, speak to stand the childhood, speak to the executives, you know, speak to my CEO. So really try and understand, you know, what the aims were, where they wanted to come from. And to ensure that there was that buying from the star. And then to build my compliance team around. And as you said, people's absolutely essential controls processes. The technology is absolutely critical. And I think one thing that was really great with Zodiac from the start is that the way we've built our custody platform, you know, the technology infrastructure is that the compliance controls are inbuilt already. So I guess there's a lot less reliance on manual efforts. So the actual product and the technology was built with that in line from the start. And I think that said a lot to me about what standard charted, you know, what they wanted to achieve. They felt that compliance was something to be at the forefront. And as a result of that, we've continued that throughout. So it's been really key for me to build that in from the start with respect to, you know, the products and the technology. And I feel like we've got a good thing going at Zodiac. The compliance culture is embedded. And I do see it much more than I've seen in the first, to be honest. Yeah. No. And similarly, like we definitely a big group of listeners to T.R.M. talks are compliance professionals. Some of the digital asset industry may try to break into this space. What types of things if you are building a compliance program today or you're a compliance professional within the crypto space? What types of things would you prioritize? I would say. So I think, I mean, I think obviously in crypto compliance, a key thing is the blockchain analytics because for me, it's not just something that you embed into different parts of the life cycle. I actually use it as almost like a live operating manual. So a constant reference point, you know, it's the first thing I open the day. I've got it open throughout. I utilize it to inform decisions, build my knowledge, design my controls, test, you know, theories and thoughts, even, you know, even in the product development. So I think that would be absolutely essential. I think really just get a breast of the blockchain analytics. I think a second one would be very much the people and the team. I was spending a lot of time on recruitment and making sure that you're really clear about the type of person, the type of roles that you want to fill. I think there's so much great talent out there, but it can be quite challenging to find, you know, the right people. And I do think don't underestimate the importance of the recruitment process and really making sure that you find the right person there. And because the team and the culture that you've got within your team is just absolutely so critically, essentially. And that's what enables the, you know, the compliance and the risk of unacquistions to ultimately thrive. So really focusing so much on the people because I've just a final thing I'll say is it's really, you know, there's so much going on in cryptiferms. It's really easy to, you know, forget and move. You've got a licensee, you've got a remediation there, all these types of things, but actually focusing in on your people is really, really essential. That's awesome. I'd say the other piece to that that we're thinking about all the time at CRM right now is AI and what role it's going to potentially play in compliance workflows. Have you thought, I mean, I know you, I'm sure you've thought about that. It becomes hard for for larger financial institutions from a regulatory perspective, I think right now is the pushback that we hear, whereas we think more crypto native firms may be lean in more. Where are you, you know, personally, maybe as a compliance professional and then from a Zodia perspective, like where are you on the AI conversation right now? Yeah, so I'll take the Zodia perspective at first. So we now developed our AI framework. So I think what's really been critical for us also knowing that the EU AI Act is implemented, there's parts of that that become live in August. So we have to make sure that what we're enabling now is compliant with that. So it's been a real priority of ours to make sure that we've got that adequate framework in place. So we've developed that within the means of that now and anything that we are looking to enable goes through that. So that's been a big priority. And then we have, you know, we've already started to look at how we're enabling our technology functions, you know, development of code, how we are enabling our compliance functions. Because if you don't get ahead of it, you know, you're going to be left behind. So and it really can save a lot of time and be so added value. But of course, it's not to replace human judgment. It is just to, you know, supplement it and enable it. So where we are now as well with the compliance function, because I absolutely think we need to be using it. We need to be like ahead and there's so many benefits for that. So we're just implementing that into our compliance teams now to utilize it. Of course, you know, we've all been using co pilots and various for a while, but actually having models implemented is a big priority of ours. And I think we've got to get on the train, you know, because if you don't, you'll be left behind. It's incredible. I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime to include the internet and crypto quite frankly and other amazing technological advancements. This is absolutely extraordinary. It's going to change everything. And it just happens so quickly. You know, I'm in the process with one of my colleagues have written the emelor report this year. And I remember using a bit of AI last year. We were just reflecting on the past year and, you know, our recommendations around the use of AI. We just thought, oh my gosh, the changes in one year is absolutely monumental. It's like if you looked back, it would almost be a sitcom. Like, I remember people like I was at a CFDC hearing and commissioners were about AI and commissioners would read the speech and they say, and you won't believe this. I used AI and it's already like did not age well, right? Like it's so crazy. Yeah, it's a, I've never seen anything move this quickly. It is. And I guess on the sort of more negative side of it, we are seeing so much use of AI now in like social engineering, like fishing attacks. People have been targeted in the organization from all different angles. So we've really had to get hot on that pretty quickly to be fair. And train people get a lot of information out there because, you know, the criminals are watching us, you know, they're watching our activity on LinkedIn. And we're really seeing that. And so yeah, we just have to be careful at that side as well and just make sure that we're not only progressing it forward in our own organizations, but clued up from our financial crime perspective because it is, it's been used. 100% I testified in Congress on AI crime several months ago and testified recently on transnational criminal groups that are using this stuff. We saw about a 500% increase in the use of AI and fraud and scams over the last year. I mean, but that's kind of always the deal, right? Bad guys are always early adopters of new technology. And then we figure out ways to kind of use it to go after them. And I just want to make sure we're, we're leveraging this stuff. Could anyone sort of a fun personal note? You and I finally got to run together bucket list for me to get to run with you in Australia. Yeah. Which was amazing. But else do you do for fun when you are not stopping bad actors from engaging with the financial system? Yeah. So I've been a horse rider my whole life. And when I was in London, it's quite challenging to consistently do that in London. You know, awfully big place, quite hard to do it. But since I moved to Australia, I've completely got back into it. I'm able to do it much more regularly now. I started jumping again. I went on a trail ride the other day. And it's just beautiful woodland. So I'm just going to be doing that much more as I can. And to be honest with you, my ideal where I want to go, I do want to get my own horse. I want to start competing again. But I don't know how that would fit in around my crypto work. But that's my aim. So that is that's still called walk me through sort of like so do you live in a place where you have easy access to horses? Do you have horses? Like, how does this all work? I had a but where I live now, I actually live really close to, I think it's the biggest park in Sydney, so it's then to annual park, and there's actually three riding stables on that park, so it's about a 15 minute walk from where I live now, so it's absolutely ideal, so that's there. And then to be honest, you can just drive out really easily, and there's lots of riding stable just outside of Sydney, so, but I mean, obviously I live in the sense of Sydney now, so I'm probably not gonna be able to get my in-horse, but my aim is eventually to move out. I need lands, you know. - Totally. When you talk about getting back to competing, that means you were competing at one point. - Yeah, just when I was, it was in my teens, it was really only just on a local level, not myself and one of my friends, we went to a show jumping show, it was most weekends, and we were just really focused on show jumping, and it's just so super fun, and I think here they have them as well, so I'm gonna try my best to get back into them, and then you can just go from that. - That's amazing. Any of great stories, your favourite stories from riding? - Well, my horse was pretty crazy, and I mean, many of my crazy stories linked to falling off him, like quite a spectacled really. - Oh, I see, yeah. - So, you know, like heading for a jump, you go forwards, he decides that the last second he's gonna stop and you go smash bang into the jump. - You know, Maracca's there, I never really hurt myself. I mean, when you're young, you just don't, you just get back straight on, so I don't know what it'd be like now, but yeah, I think it's just, I mean, we had had an amazing time doing all of that stuff, but just some monumental falls. - That is not good, but it sounds like it was always okay, which is-- - Yeah, yeah. - That's a whole lot of forces. - That's a scary thing. You know what, it just strikes me, so like I asked this question to pretty much everyone who comes on, "G-R-I-Tox, what do you do for hobbies and interests?" And we've done 130 of these. Inevitably, it ends up as like a competitively, whatever that person does, they do it competitively. Like, it's not just like, "I do this thing," right? Like, it's a jujitsu champion, or I swam the English channels. That like, I just swim, right? Like, seriously, like, but I think that speaks to probably people who are crazy enough to get into this space or something like that. Yeah. - Yeah. - I mean, I think there is something, that's the thing I do, I want to ride, but the competing is just, there's just a bit of feeling around it, you know? So yeah, I think it must just be people in this space, yeah, it just tells you a lot of things. - People in this space, just incredible roles, trying to build something meaningful and substantial and you're competing in a way, right, against yourself, against old systems. It's awesome. - Yeah. - You are such a pleasure. Thank you so much for being on, and really just so grateful for the friendship and the partnership, and let's looking forward to doing lots more together. - Yeah, no me too, no. So I'm so glad to be open-hearted on this, do this in the end, and yeah, no, it's just been great, it's just. - We will talk soon, and thanks for joining TRM Talks. - Great, thank you. - You know, I've been trying to get Sophie on for a while, and really, I think in large part, it's because Zodia does sit at that really interesting intersection, right? We're in that moment between institutional, financial, large financial institutions are getting in this space, and these crypto-native firms, and Zodia really spun off from Standard Charter, a truly large global financial institution, but really still has that crypto-native ethos, and someone who's deep on crypto compliance, coming from TragFi, is really the perfect person for TRM Talks right now in this moment, and a couple things that really struck me one, I love how she described her journey to financial crime, right, that like money laundering is really just an issue that arises in every type of crime, right? Those laundered funds aren't just laundered funds, they're stolen from real victims. They are used potentially in a terrorist attack where people die, and for Sophie, I think, to get into the space because of that, because she saw the harm done in the world and wanted to stop it, I was really struck me. And then the other piece is like really, I think her focus on, while we could potentially do this better today than we've ever done compliance, whether that means blockchain analytics, whether that means the beacon network, which super proud to have Zodia as really one of the founding members, and AI, and how she really kind of explored those things. So look, I think we're moving to this world where you sing the intersection of traditional finance and crypto, Sophie's really just the perfect chief compliance officer for that moment. On the next TRM Talks, I sit down with Brindley Lear, Deputy Commissioner for Digital Assets at the California Department of Financial Protection and Innovation. If you love the show, leave a review wherever you're listening to it, and follow us on LinkedIn to get the latest news on crypto regulation, compliance and investigations. TRM Talks is brought to you by TRM Labs, the leading provider of blockchain intelligence and anti-money laundering software. This episode was produced in partnership with Valtage Productions. The music for this show was provided by E. Colics. Now, let's get back to building.