EP #109- Alexi Pappas On Redefining Mental Illness As An Injury and Preventive Health Strategies

(gentle music) The understanding that every game or race or day or whatever you're doing has its place, but it isn't always to win. And so one of the things that I appreciate about that in running, but in everyday life is just understanding what the purpose and goal of any one element of your life is. Having a sense of composure about everyday because you understand your bigger North Star and you understand the ways in which every action you're doing will get you there. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, a mental health podcast focused on the importance of finding joy and happiness and daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stephanopolis, and this week's guest is someone that I've been wanting to speak to for a while, so I am thrilled that this episode is finally getting to be released. And I am so honored to have had the opportunity to bring Alexi Papis onto the podcast. Alexi is an Olympic runner where she represented Greece at the 2016 Summer Olympics, setting the national record for the 10,000 meter race. She's also a filmmaker, actor, and author of the memoir, "Brivy" that touches on integral moments in her life and her own experiences with mental health struggles. In honor of mental health awareness month, I really did feel inspired after speaking with Alexi. I've never had someone that's come onto the podcast that's offered such a unique analogy towards mental health, physical health, and how we deal with a physical ailment versus how we deal with a mental ailment. So I'm gonna leave the rest to Alexi to dive into this in the episode, really fascinating stuff that she shares. I know all of you will feel just as inspired as I did. But before we get right into it, reminder to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. And if you like what you heard, you can follow along Everyday Endorphins on Instagram and TikTok to stay up to date with future episodes and podcast events. Hi, Alexi. Thank you so much for coming on to Everyday Endorphins. It is so great to have you here. Thank you, thank you. And I'm glad we're both in our offices. You are in yours, and I'm at my house, which is my office. That's the best type of office. I'm so excited to have you as a guest on the podcast, not only because you are a fellow Greek, but also because of all of the incredible work that you're doing to support athletes in mental health and how outspoken you are and vulnerable you are on your own mental health struggles. So something that I found to be really fascinating is how you describe depression as a broken bone and how you make this parallel between how athletes take care of their physical health, but how we can use that as an approach towards taking care of our mental health. So I'd love to hear more about kind of how you develop that perspective on mental health and your battles of depression and kind of seeing it through the lens of being a competitive athlete in an Olympian. Yeah, for me, it was a very practical and necessary image to imagine a depression, at least in the kind that I had, was a situational depression, which is where you might feel OK, OK, and then feel like you kind of fell off a cliff, which all Olympians experience a kind of dip after the Olympics no matter how they performed. And I think anyone does after a big peak in their life. But I was very unequipped to understand how to visualize what that was for me. And because of my mom's mental illness and her, she took her own life, I was very confused as to, if you don't feel great, how do you avoid ending up like that? And the injury metaphor was presented to me by a psychologist, psychiatrist, Dr. Arpea, who saved my life really by helping me understand that what I was experiencing was like an injury to the brain. And I think that was very smart one, because he knew I understood injuries. And I think in general, people understand like physical injuries. We're further along in that world than the mental health injury, vocabulary, and landscape, I think. And so he described it as like, you know, when you're a little kid and you are rollerblading along and then you trip and you fall and you scab your knee or you cut your knee, it is going to hurt for a while, but it can heal. And he kind of described my mental health like that. And it's not that every mental illness or every depression is completely healable, but it is like addressable. And it was cool because he helped me understand that I was going to hurt every day for a while, just like when a bone breaks, it's going to hurt every day for a while, but that doesn't mean it's not healing. And what you focus on when you break a bone are your actions. And your actions, you know, for a bone break are like, sleep, time off of exercise, maybe some bone broth, some calcium, you know, those sorts of things. And so with the mental health, I was to focus on my actions and see it like an injury. And that just helped me feel helpable, patient, and not so offended by the pain that I felt for a long time. I believe that I was healing as long as I focused on my actions, just like I might, if I broke a bone. So it simplified it. It gave me an image and it made me feel helpable. - Yeah, I think especially when someone is experiencing a really intense bout of depression or anxiety, it's like if you're kind of digging yourself into a hole and then you just don't have that hope to come out. So perhaps with that metaphor, there was hope that was built because there was this persistence and recognizing that you're not gonna feel better the next day or the day after, but it's through these micro-staps if you create a habit out of it. If you do something every day that's going to better yourself, eventually, you know, you will come out on the other side. So I think that's a really clever metaphor. And also, I, in college, studied a combination of philosophy, neuroscience, and psychology. And what really fascinated me about that major was really the intersection between those three disciplines, but also how they complemented each other. And when you look at something from a biological perspective, like studying neuroscience, you can really understand like the building blocks that explain these psychological theories that kind of inform those broader philosophical questions. So I think it's a similar logic actually when thinking about this injury metaphor. Like if you can simplify it and actually understand what's going on in your body, then you know what you need to do to address that to move forward. Yeah. And I wouldn't even go so far as to say that it's like, it's a metaphor that is also kind of the reality because depression is just like a product of like nervous system depletion and like so are injuries to other parts of your body. Like they just, you know, it's a, it is like an actual, like there's a thing that happens in your brain. And so I think it is, it is an injury. It is not necessarily just an illness. I think it's an injury as well. You also mentioned earlier about your mother committing suicide, taking her own life when you were young, you were four years old. That's such a young age to experience loss and grief. And I feel like also that's just such a young age to even conceptualize anything that's happening outside of us. So how did that impact you when you were four? Like did you understand what was going on when you were that young and how did that kind of translate as you matured and grew older? I didn't know how she died till I was in seventh grade when my best friend told me. So my dad just didn't really want to talk about that stuff. And so I didn't really understand it then. I did understand what I had seen, which were like a few very specific, impactful, mostly difficult memories. And those were confusing because she was in the hospital a lot, because she had a lot of, she had addiction and mental health challenges and physical, she had scoliosis. So she also was having physical challenges. So I think what I knew was that I didn't have that keystone person even before she died. She just wasn't super present. And when she was, it was really challenging. And then when she did die, I just was, I felt very much like I would need to take care of myself in an emotional way. 'Cause my dad didn't talk about feelings and it was really weird because I always felt like I was very different than people. And I had to be very emotionally perceptive to other people's feelings because she was so unpredictable being manic bipolar. And so I became very like, I felt like a little like urchin child, but I was like I need to survive in this world. And I don't think that that's entirely worn off. Like I do think that I still feel very like sometimes different, but everybody I think feels different. It just mostly would have been nice to have that guidance in just growing up kind of more normally. And it's affected me in weird ways where I'm like, that was an instance where having a mom or a really emotionally involved parent would be really helpful. But you are whatever you are. And I think it's okay because I think I'm someone that's tries to stay on the ground. on my own team. And so to see everything is like, it will be a harbinger of like good eventually. That's just like a different way of looking at the world. You could see the world as a abundant place where you don't know this one thing, you can have everything else, or you can see it as a place where you don't have that thing and you're going to not have anything else either. And I'm just trying to see the world as more abundant because it is in my favor to do so, you know? Oh, absolutely. I'm glad you bring that up because I think it alludes to this concept of the abundance mindset, which I've done a little bit of research on and try to think a bit more about as I challenge my own belief of the world and certain things that happen to me that I can't control. Because I do think when you come from a place of lack or feeling like there's a scarcity, you're not attracting the right energy. But if you come from this place of abundance, then things can kind of, you can allow things to flow more easily. And I also believe that mindset is so powerful when it comes to our mental health and our physical health and our overall holistic well-being. And something that really fascinates me is just getting to speak with athletes about how they've crafted their own mindset, how they get through challenges and obstacles. So I'd love to hear from you your perspective on being in the right mindset as an athlete and how you did it as an athlete and then how that kind of transformed and permeated through other areas of your life. Yeah. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is just that like athletics have, you know, you don't win every game or every race. That's very normal for sports. That's just very, very normal. So I think the understanding that every game or race or day or whatever you're doing has its place but it isn't always to win. So like we used to go to races just to practice the warm-up routine. This one was practice the last third of a race because I'm a long-distance runner. This one, you know, you want it to all come together at the Olympics, of course. You want every piece to come together but it's not reasonable for everything to come together all the time. And so one of the things that I appreciate about that in running but in everyday life is just understanding what the purpose and goal of any one element of your life is. And it wouldn't serve your north star, your bigger purpose to win every single race because you want to go to races that challenge certain weaknesses that you have. But you have to be mature enough to understand how it fits in with a bigger picture. So I think it's just having a sense of composure about every day because you understand your bigger north star and you understand the little the ways in which every action you're doing will get you there. And you know challenge and loss they help you grow. Like a really hard workout that you don't finish. Like probably you'll get a lot out of that. So I guess that's just as it pertains to like loss and challenges themselves. But I think also just you know suspending disbelief. Like every athlete is a dreaming you know a boolean creature in my mind and I think to carry that into real life that things are possible and that there are games. So you are it's not life or death. I think that carries well into a lot of other pursuits unless they really are these life or death things. So there's there's a lot about it that you know how to handle teams. There's just so much and I never thought that athletics would help so much with everything else because I just like playing sports. I wasn't I didn't do sports to help with anything else at all. It was like sports were for sports sake but it inevitably by committing fully to sports you well do well elsewhere if you want to. Mm-hmm. And something that I really also admire about you is that not only are you an athlete but you're also super creative as a writer as a filmmaker. How did those interests develop and do you see there being any connection between the more athletic side of you and then also the more creative writer filmmaker part of your personality and identity? Yes. So I think both athletics and the arts are disciplined. So so we're we're born with these innate whatever is in the sequa and the arts are athletic you know predispositions but I would be like an awful runner if I don't train like when I don't run I can't run fast and and I think it's the same with the arts is like you can put in the time put in the reps and get something get something out of it. I always enjoyed both the arts and sports and I think they're both like they're both performances as at least with running like you wear a costume you're in front of people you put out a performance like it does feel very theatrical to me to be an athlete and I enjoy that part of the athleticism they're different in a lot of ways and they helped balance my life out so I remember when I was training for the Olympics it was really helpful for me to have a reason to end practice and go into some artistic project. Some athletes are thinking too much about their sport all the time and you can't run at least with running you can't run more than a few hours a day it's just one of those sports and so you kind of have to find something to put your mind to and I enjoyed the arts it could have been something else but that was the counterbalance and so I think they they were refreshing to one another. Yeah that makes sense and I'm not anywhere near close to ever being an Olympian in my life but when I was in high school I was on a rowing team and that was my first time kind of venturing into the sports and athleticism and this crew taught me a lot about life and discipline and grit and resilience but I resonate with that saying or what you said about it being kind of theatrical because rowing is a super rhythmic sport you're in a boat altogether and you have to be in sync otherwise you're not going to move the boat but then growing up like prior to high school I was very arts oriented I loved performing in that way and I never thought that the two could kind of exist at once so I've always really fascinated to hear other stories who also identify or have interest in those two separate disciplines because there is some sort of overlap between the two but I want to go back to a little bit earlier when we were talking more about these different analogies and metaphors that you were sharing about depression and how you view that and you'd also mention that you would fall into this depression right after the Olympics and that it's kind of natural for you know after peaking at a certain point in your life to experience a low how did you kind of reconcile being at such a high point in your life and then experiencing such a low yeah well I think that there should be a like period of time built in to any like pivotal time in your life that is like the decompression after and I've been thinking a lot about like the image of a mountain as a mountain looks like in an emoji where there's two sides to the mountain and the climb is you know getting to that point but the emoji like if there wasn't the other side it would just be like a cliff and that's usually what it feels like for people because they they you shouldn't really plan the moment after but to at least embrace that there's a come down there because it's an adrenal fatigue really like it what it starts out as is like it's a loss because you had a purpose that is now over your body your mind like you you had output that is unsustainable and it's just I think there's a chemical need to recover but there's also not a built-in practice of decompressing that other side of the mountain and if there was maybe people would stop asking at the finish line of a race what's next so I think there's just like why is it so surprising and surprising because there's not a built-in infrastructure for the moment after and if it was built-in then it wouldn't be so surprising and it might be less severe because usually the severity of it is exacerbated by the fact that we don't expect it and we're not ready for it and we haven't built in time we don't embrace decompression and so I don't think it has to be a shocking if it's a natural thing which it is it's very it would be odd if you were able to carry on as you always were right after a peak like that you know yeah like giving yourself some grace in the aftermath of an event that is exciting and incredible but also probably really stressful and after experiencing something like that knowing that there is some sort of calm down just out of curiosity like what do you think that would look like like building in some sort of period there where you you give yourself that buffer you give yourself the compassion to kind of come down from a very intense experience I think it's going to be so personal for everyone like what their decompression looks like but for generally it's like trying to not force what is going to make you feel good but give enough time and space and and movement so that it can change like for example like after a race like it is classic to like you crave certain foods and it's like make sure you get those foods like there's a reason why you want Fried Kalamari every single day. Like you just try and get it if you have that chance and you can. I think it's fun to plan some of it though. And I have a mentor in this director of the Pixar movie Luka. He was nominated for an Oscar for Luka and he had had a prior Oscar nomination where he didn't quite prepare for the moment after. And this time he prepared to go to an ultra marathon, which is like a longer than a marathon, um, in Chinguiterra where the movie was set, where he grew up, and he invited me and we went and we did this marathon, this ultra, about a week after the Oscars. And so for him, that gave him this like thing to shift his mind to that, uh, you know, it wasn't like he wanted to compete and win. He wanted to just go run it and it was very cathartic for him. And so that that could represent a kind of decompression. For me, like I just guided a blind athlete. She's visually impaired. Uh, her name's Lisa in the Boston marathon. And I was so exhausted the week after even though it wasn't a peak race for me, it's a lot of output and like, there's a lot. And so I have just tried to be kind that it's probably going to take a month for me to completely normalize. So I think it's protecting the time, planning something or two, and then also leaving space to hear what you might need. Yeah, that's great advice because I feel like it also doesn't place so much too much weight and importance on maybe that one moment when you have something planned after. Maybe it's not as important as, or as stressful and as strenuous as what came prior. But having something to look forward to or kind of in that buffer, I think is a really um, great piece of advice. And I would love to also hear about some of your wellness strategies and things you do to stay mentally fit now because you're such an advocate on mental health and wellness. I'm just very curious to hear, you know, how you try to incorporate some of the things that you talk about and that you're so passionate about into your own routine and into your own life. That's a good question. Well, I like, how do I do pre-hab now? Basically, stay well now. I stay well. I mean, I have to lean on my calendar pretty hard and that helps me because I just quite simple, like I need to know, I need to control what I can control. So I do try to preserve willpower by like knowing as much as I can about my life moving forward. And that kind of lets me be in the present more because I'm not holding, you know, the calendar holds some of it. And that's simple, but it's, I don't know, I didn't always use a Google Cal and now I'm like, this is helping me. I built in decompression by truly, I think it's just using the word more. Like, I do think that vocabulary is a big thing. And so by saying like, I'm in the decompression, I'm like labeling it, I don't really even use the word recovery because I think it's a little overused and I don't know, it just, it feels like decompression feels a little more cool to me. I try to sleep a lot, like I'm not like that nuanced with what I do. So we talked about depression is like a nervous system overload. So I have to look out for like very early signs for myself because my susceptibility is like these, these tremendous dips where I feel okay and then I'm fall off. And I was taught that you have the most nerves in your hands, feet and your face. And when I think back, so I was told by physio to consider small changes in my hands, oh, and your stomach as well, my stomach, hands, feet, face. And I thought back to my depression and I remember I had this like weird splotch on my face and a kangaroo sort. And that for me is really unusual. And so I've started to pay attention to shifts in my face very closely. So I'll get sometimes like an eye twitch if I'm starting to nervous system overload or a pimple which for me is not that normal. And I think that's a really simple way for even though it seems crazy, like you have a pimple and you're going to like take a day off, but that's like where it all starts is in your nervous system. And so when I start to sense these little overloads, I will slow down. And I think that's been so useful. And I don't, it's objective, right? You're like, yeah, there's a kangaroo sort of like, sorry, I like cannot run today or whatever it is. It's helped a lot. Yeah, well, I think that speaks to just how integrated our physical and our mental health are, just like how interconnected the body and the mind are. Because our bodies are like physical manifestations of or what's happening with our bodies is a physical manifestation of what's going on, you know, in your head. And I love just bringing it back to this point around regulating your nervous system. I also instruct yoga and I loved incorporating breath work into my own yoga practice. And when I teach, because I see yoga in particular as an activity, you know, non-assurances work out to like burn calories or to get fit and lean and sure maybe those are great byproducts, but it's really a practice to link your breath with your movement and actually regularly your nervous system and get away from the fight or flight and tap into the rest and digest. Totally. I did an episode recently on the power of breath work because a friend of mine, who's a trainer for Nike is really into cold exposure and ice bath. Oh yeah. And all of that. I like, is that something that you do or I learned a little bit about kind of the power of cold and regulating our nervous system? So I'm curious if this is like a practice that you do, especially as an athlete. I would do it. I own a steam shower and a hot tub, but I love cold punches. So maybe I'll get one. I mean, I used to do ice baths when I went to a school that had them so easily outside the locker room and I liked them. So I would do it. I haven't done it in a minute, but I'm I mean, I've tried it like twice and not for recovery purposes like genuinely just to like go in experience it and then get out. And the first 30 seconds are actually pretty hard because it's such a shock to your system. But once you're in the ice bath and you're like, oh, you know, I can, I just have to focus on my breath. It's going to be okay. The time's going to go by fast. And then you start to kind of like feel this warmth within yourself. And that is sustaining the warmth that you need, even though you're submerged in freezing cold water. So definitely give it a try because I came out feeling really relaxed and wanting to do it again, oddly enough. Yeah, it's good. Shake up of your own matrix is good. Yeah, adding a little bit of change. Maybe something also to look forward to. So as we move into the rest of this interview, I did want to ask you a few questions on happiness and in general given that the name of the podcast is everyday endorphins and something that I really do advocate for on the show and talk a lot about is the importance of finding joy and little moments and seeking out those little glimmers in life. And I also think that, you know, happiness can't really, you have to kind of talk about happiness when you are talking about mental health because people just want to feel happy at the end of the day. Like that's something we all want to feel. But naturally, it's not something that we can achieve all the time or feel all the time. And I don't think it's something that we should feel all the time. But I'm curious to hear your perspective on happiness and and how you define what it means to be happy. I feel happiest. I think when I know I'm trying my best, I think that's like when I feel most like if I'm talking about just my relationship with myself, I feel very happy when I'm like trying my best. And that's really a weird thing to determine for yourself. Because you don't always remember effort. Like at the end of the day, I remember training hard and then coming home in the night, being like, did I work hard? And it's like, of course I did. But I'm hard on myself. And so I've tried to build in, like I will remember what I say, not necessarily what I felt. So like when you're training with people, you will often be like, wow, that was a hard wrap or like good job. And you'll remember that when you go to bed. And so I've tried to build in saying things throughout the day that at night I can kind of relish, which is like just taking the time to like be proud and be happy or be allow yourself to feel the happiness you should feel. So I think that's how I feel happy. But I don't, I think I'm deeply satisfied when I'm like running, eating well, sleeping, and like progressing in my like curious, ongoing career path, which is not very on a path. It's like something I'm building. And I think that that's like really, that feels happy to me. I've increasingly felt happy around people that make me feel, I've like a few newer, really good friends. So I've enjoyed just being like a part of that. It's like a lot simpler, you know, I love good food. I love a good night's sleep. I love those things. Yeah, well, it really is the simple pleasures. And you know, I like asking this question because you know that movie inside out, the Disney film. It's like brilliant. Honestly, it's such a brilliant and clever film the way to talk about emotions because happy, we think happy is the opposite of sad. However, these feelings can coexist at the same time. Feelings are nuanced, emotions are nuanced. So I love hearing people's perspective on happiness because from what I've come to learn, it's like not this external thing that we can just get. Like it is something that we need to cultivate within us, but in that process, you are likely to experience other emotions. So you can't really have happiness on one side and all the other emotions on the other side of the equation. They're very interconnected. I don't know if that's something you've also experienced through those ups and downs in your life or just grappling through some of the more challenging moments that you've had. Yeah. I remember I was sometimes when I'm doing things that make me so happy, I feel sad at the same time that I can't do it forever. And that's a very cute, I feel like that's like, it makes me, it's very, I find that very funny because you're basically saying, I'm so happy and I'm sad I can't be this forever. But yeah, all the time, right? All the time. I think the reason why they coexist is because we're not fully in control of something. You might be so fond of someone or something and then you're sad because it can't be exactly as you want it or you can't control where it's going to go or you can't, you know, there's like, that's maybe where some sadness comes from or you're sad because you didn't get something that you really wanted. So there's a happiness in knowing that you love something and a sadness in knowing that you don't have it. So it's all the time. And that is not a bad thing, I think. As long as we keep looking at life kind of like, I don't know like when you think about kids like doing like a school play and sometimes when I think back, I'm like, oh, it's so cute. I thought I could do that. Like certain things. And so this isn't making tons of sense, but I guess it's just when you are trying hard to do things that you haven't done before, those things are always, you're going to have that. But the whole thing in a package is pretty beautiful and adorable. You're like, what a cute person to like, have and lost or want and not get or get and then lose. It's like, that's really, that's very a big life. That's a big life. - And I think with the children metaphor, I mean, that sense of child like curiosity, children just have this love and excitement and eagerness to try things and they're not afraid of failure. And so I think it's all of those things that kind of add up to what you're saying. - Alexi, as we wrap up today, there's one final question that I want to ask you that I ask every guest that comes onto the podcast. And I think you kind of mentioned it earlier, but maybe you have another answer for this. So in the spirit of seeking endorphins and daily living, what is something besides running, which is obviously a huge endorphin high, what is something that brings you endorphins every day in just a bit of happiness? - I think to give a different answer, lighting a candle. I really like my candles. I just ordered a bunch of new ones and I love that I can light them as much as I want. And even if I run out, I have some more to light. And I'm like, so I really like candles. - I recently got on the candle train too, actually. There's so much power in like dimming your lights, lighting a candle, like getting out of the shower, like just setting the ambiance, something that's calm, it can instantly change my mood. So I also recently have developed a love for candles. Love that answer. Alexi, it was such a pleasure getting to have you on the podcast and I learned a lot from this interview. So thank you for taking the time to come and chat with me and my community. - Thank you. Happy endorphins, everyone. (upbeat music) - Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the Everyday Endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time. (upbeat music)