EP.09 Maggie Appleton on digital gardening

Hi everyone, this is Eda Josephina and you're listening to Reverb by Sane. Before we get into today's episode, I've got a few lines of housekeeping. Sane is slowly getting rolled out into the real world. We're opening up our MVP to those interested in trying it out. You can go to our website at sane.fi and book an onboarding call with myself or Tina. With this, you'll also be getting a free plan for one year. For those of you unfamiliar, I'll give a little recap on what we're building. So, Sane's mission has always been to raise the collective wisdom of humanity by enabling deeper and more meaningful ways of creating and sharing knowledge. We've been doing this in a few different ways by conducting independent research, hosting this podcast and building technology tools that help us supercharge our cognitive abilities rather than deteriorating them. The tool we're building is actually right on theme with today's episode about digital gardening. Sane's thoughts faces are built for collecting, creating, and sharing thought processes. The interface, also known as the space, is in its essence, a minimalist digital environment, a blank canvas of sorts combined with a set of features that enable anyone to create, collect, and connect documents related to a given project. It functions as essentially a bank of information sources that are linked interlinked by the user to form a network of connected nodes. Users can publish their space and share them as unique URLs to showcase any type of knowledge. Sane is basically created for anyone who works and thinks with documents. It's made for studying, sharing research, collecting recipes, writing fiction, sharing professional profiles, showcasing creative work, creating online courses, and everything in between. We've got a big backlog of new features in the pipeline as well, and are actively taking an ideas from our community on how to make this product as intuitive and useful as possible. We'll be sharing more details on the soft launch as well very soon. But let's get to today's real agenda in this episode I'm speaking with Maggie Appleton. Maggie is a designer and theologist developer hybrid. She's currently the head of design hash where they're developing open source interoperable systems to improve the way we structure knowledge on the web. On the side, she creates illustrated essays and visual explanations about programming and culture. She's an advocate of digital gardening and user programming and expanding our use of embodied cognition and conceptual metaphors in digital interfaces. In this episode, Maggie and I get into the weeds of digital gardening, pun intended. We talk about the history of the concept, what it means, the challenges of building digital gardens, the cozy web, the limitations we face with blogs, and the web infrastructure that propels them, and whether digital gardening is complementary or one against the other with Twitter. I really hope you all enjoyed this episode. I certainly enjoyed making it as usual. Let us know any thoughts and I look forward to hearing your feedback on the product as well. Let's get to it. Here's Maggie Appleton. Okay, I'm here with Maggie Appleton. Welcome Maggie. It's really, really nice to be talking to you today. Hi, thanks for having me. Absolutely. So let's get started with talking a little bit about yourself. Do you want to give a short history on who you are and what you do? Sure. So I'll start at the beginning on kind of work backwards. I currently am the head of design at a company called HASH, where we work on decision-making tools and essentially trying to help people organize data in ways where they'll be able to run simulations on it and analyze it. Both individuals and small companies is kind of the market we work with. But I think I'm here talking to you today because I also write a lot online about, well, user interface design. I'm a designer obviously and I originally studied cultural anthropology, so I'm really interested in the intersection of design anthropology and I say technology sometimes, but essentially programming. I've been part of the programming and developer space for almost my entire career. Before HASH, I worked at a company called Egghead. I was the art director and lead illustrator there where we would teach essentially a JavaScript concept. And that was really where I learnt so much about web development community and the JavaScript community and got very, very interested in the culture of programming and development and accessibility to programming tools for people. So those are some of the kind of the main themes I probably care about that and how those intersect with design. Yeah. And do you have a really interesting background starting from your childhood as well, living in different countries? Do you want to talk a little bit about just sort of how you were brought up? Sure. We found we connected on that, we both moved around. So the buzz word for people like us is third culture kids. So there's this idea that if you're a child that grows up in international schools, you are sort of this blend of all the cultures you take part in and live in. And from the age of six, my family is my mother's American and my father's British, but I grew up in London for the first six years of my life. And then was moved to Hong Kong first, spent a year there and then moved to Vietnam and grew up there for four years, sort of in the early 90s. Then moved to Thailand for a couple years, then Singapore for a couple years, then did my undergraduate degree in America in a liberal arts school. And then all throughout my 20s just continued to country hop, sort of because didn't necessarily have a home. Really? That was the moment it was. Yeah. Didn't know what it was to stay put. There was sort of nowhere logical to go. My parents still live in Asia, so I kind of went back there for a while and bounced around a bunch of different countries. And I've now learned, so now in my 30s, just kind of settle down and back in the UK, trying to be like a normal adult in London, but yes, had a very nomadic, I'd say, young life. Yeah. And how did that make you interested in studying anthropology? As you mentioned to me previously, that you had a family of librarians as well, no, that was an interesting mix of your background that kind of bleeds into your current interests. Yes. So my mother is a librarian and an incredibly enthusiastic librarian. So I think growing up, I would just sort of in her culture all the time. So she even specialized in information technology management, sort of like how we manage our digital information, how people find things, sort of how they work with Google Search, how they research, like that's kind of her wheelhouse. She teaches high school students, like research skills. So I grew up in this house that was absolutely covered in books. So despite moving all the time, we loved like over 10,000 books around every single country. So they would just walk around everywhere. Yeah, the moving costs were quite a lot. Yeah, I was just thinking. But it meant that like, there's so many canonical books that to me are almost like, best through all childhood memories, just because I knew where they lived on the shelf. So it's funny when people were referenced certain books now, and I'm like, oh, I knew that one was like next to the kitchen door. Yeah. So I was very, very privileged to have sort of been soaked in a very literary culture, I suppose, from a young age. So when I sort of got into design and programming and found out about the world of personal knowledge management and people thinking about information tools and what we now call like tools for thought, it resonates a lot with what I had heard about growing up about the problem of categorizing things or the problem of how you organize a collection of information. So yes, I'll say my mother is still a large influence on me. A lot of my research themes are things she originally researched in her degrees. Yeah, she's a smart woman, I'm very lucky. That's very nice. So maybe that's actually a good segue into defining some of the terms that we'll be talking about. So maybe first just the general term knowledge management. What does that mean to you? Yeah, that's hard. I don't even know if I have a nice patch definition for it. It's funny, I suppose in all context, we think about it as, I'll think about it in the context of, let's say, knowledge workers, which is what a lot of us get called nowadays. People who primarily read and write words for our job and have to sort of understand vague abstract concepts as a large part of our jobs. And possibly, you know, interpret buzz words, come up with buzz words, explain them to one another. Like that's almost like the bulk of the work in lots of ways. So I think of information management as being able to take all that reading and writing we do and make meaningful sense of it to ourselves and to each other. So to tell ourselves really good stories about why this information matters and to make it accessible to us at the right times and places. There's a lot of, I forget what it's called, but there's an information chart that talks about how you have data at the bottom, then information, then knowledge, then wisdom, and we're all trying to get to wisdom, but we have to work through the data and information layers to get to knowledge, to get to wisdom. So knowledge management, I think, is that bit where we're trying to sort of move between maybe more like information and knowledge at that level in order to get to wisdom eventually. That's really interesting. I've actually never really, yeah, I've never pictured it in that kind of way in my head, but when you're explaining, explaining it, I can really see sort of like a visual representation of this explanation you're giving. So what is digital gardening? That's kind of the theme that we're really talking about today. How did you discover this term and what does it mean? Right, so I think I came across it, it was in 2018. So a lot of this, I'll credit to my old CEO of my old company, who's fantastic Joel Hooks, who runs Egghead. He first came across it, I think in early 2018, I'd had sort of been banging on about it for like six months to every one of the team, being like, "Oh, my blog's a digital garden, and you should all have digital gardens sending around articles and things." And so I was like, "Oh, that's interesting," and I started looking into it a bit and found that it was mostly a man named Mike Corfields came up with a term in 2015, or at least our current understanding of it. Sort of that phrase had been used in various ways throughout history and it ended up writing a history of digital gardening a year later and found that people had used it on Twitter and like the early 2000s, but to not forget. Sorry. The last thing I heard was a man named Mike Corfield. Oh, okay. So is it back now? Yes. Okay. Okay. We'll try again. Let's hope that's all right. So digital gardening was invented in the way we currently understand it by a man named Mike Corfield in 2015. He is an information researcher and also part of library science and knowledge management. He gave a talk and also roged up as a long essay about this idea of digital gardening. And people have used the term before in throughout history, like I did a little bit of like historical research and wrote a piece on this that people had used it in the early 2000s on Twitter to mean more like organizing their digital space. But no one had sort of defined it in the way Mike did. So when he defines it in 2015, he's specifically talking about the idea of changing the way we approach publishing personal knowledge to the web and the way we both consume knowledge on the web and the way we publish it and put it out. And he argued quite convincingly, I think a lot of people resonated with a lot of us, that the old model and this was of course very big from like web 2.0 social media platforms throughout the early 2000s and leading up to 2015 was that we had fallen into what he calls a stream-based approach. So linear time is the main organizing structure of streams. So if you think of Twitter or the Facebook newsfeed or the LinkedIn feed thing, everyone's feed is a reverse chronological list of the most recent things at the top and then it gets buried downwards. So it means that you are always faced with the most recent thing that happened and you're not encouraged to go looking through the past. Yeah. And looking through the past is difficult. And the only way you have to browse it is like, well, how recently did this happen? Which doesn't preference what the contents about, how important it is, you know, whether it's relevant to you. It isn't taking into account any of those aspects of the information. It's only how recently did this happen. Right. So just to like, so the definition between or the way that digital gardening as a term was used in early Twitter referenced sort of to just individual people organizing their own thoughts and ideas and notes, but my call field's definition then went into sort of asking the question of how people are building different tools that share and help share and consume information as well, so it's much more of an active approach. Would that be a correct interpretation? Yes. I think I'd say that the early versions of it I found on Twitter, I don't think were genuinely like a thing, like they weren't like a defined term. Like it was just sort of people ad hoc kind of saying like, oh, I'm cleaning up my folder structure today, you know, a bit of digital gardening, but as like a bit of a joke, you know, like when my call field wrote the essay, I'm fairly sure. He wouldn't have come across the term before or it wasn't like something he was redefining. I found very few references to it before his essay. Okay. And so what are some examples of digital gardening in the recent definition or idea of it? Well, my favorite one is Wikipedia is the Internet's largest digital garden because it's not time-based, it's based on associative links, which is kind of the contrast to the stream that the call field talked about is the garden is the response to the stream, where you say rather than organizing by linear time, we're going to organize things based on how they are related. So it's an interlinked network of information. And another key idea of it is you're always tending it and updating it over time. So this is where the garden metaphor comes in that you are organizing ideas in a landscape, like a garden, and you are always updating and growing the garden and trying to improve it, versus in stream-based interfaces, you publish once and you never touch it again, right? It's a publish and you're done, which encourages certain ways of relating to information. It encourages certain ways of publishing information that aren't like, you know, inherently bad, but we can consider ways they have downsides. And gardening is just an alternate way of thinking about information that gives us a lot more opportunity to lean into things like revising our ideas, engaging in discussions and revising work, thinking about work in terms of growing a body of knowledge over time instead of just publishing one-off posts in a stream. So given that context, that's kind of why I think I say Wikipedia is just the world's biggest digital gardening project because people are always updating it. It's very interlinked, you know, you can always jump between articles, and it's very much about trying to curate and cultivate the best information that we have or the best stuff we know in a big group project. Yeah, I mean, it's so impressive how incredibly collaborative it is and how reliable it's come over time. But I think the thing that you mentioned, or you touched on briefly, is like this like presentational performance, like what are some of the problems or limitations with the current sort of way people blog or, you know, the web infrastructure that propels this kind of way of behaving on the internet versus what the sort of upsides, concrete upsides, indigial gardening would be when it comes to publishing ideas. Right, so it's interesting, like blogs started as quite like a wholesome, small, cozy thing, like, you know, people writing updates to each other on the web. So web blog, it means, you know, a log of your life. So you would use to post things like they were tweets, you know, you'd just sort of be like, "Hey, I haven't breakfast this morning, you know, in your blog." And then it's strange that, well, it's not strange, I mean, we can see how it happened. Over the course of the 2010s, the internet became a much more, well, it's not the word for a capitalist place, right, that advertising came and money came in. It became a very consumer-based medium. And blogs started to become quite professional. We got this idea of influencers, we got the idea of sort of people being their own personal brands, the person as a small business, the person as a corporation, that you are constantly trying to present yourself on the internet as a very impressive person and you're trying yourself that you're very smart and, you know, people to hire you. Not to say people shouldn't do that, obviously, that is the reality we live in is you kind of get hired based on how you present yourself on the internet. But it meant that blogs became professionalized, right, and people formed groups and came up with huge, enormous media conglomerate websites, and made tons and tons of money of what was supposedly a blog on the surface. But it means that the idea of a blog post became a very formal thing. It was like you would work on a blog post for a long time and you would get an editor and you would all copy edit it and carefully write it and construct it, and then put it out. And then it's done, right, you like published it on this date, like a news article, like never to be touched again. This is like your canonical idea. And the problem with that is, first of all, it takes a ton of effort, right, like we all, or everyone always talks about the guilt of that they want to write, but they have such trouble doing it because they have this frame of like, well, if I write something, I have to like work on it, think about it closely, you know, publish like my final thoughts, and then I can't touch it again, so it really has to be good. Yeah. And then write the next good thing afterwards, so you have to always sort of like keep going, you can't just do one thing and leave it at that either. Yeah. Yeah. And it's difficult for the writer or the creator, and it hides the process from the people reading it because that all we ever see is the published finished version of everything. We never see the work in progress. We don't see the ideas that led up to that finished piece. We don't understand what they read or researched or thought about in connection to it. So it sort of hides a lot of what is actually some of the very valuable stuff about seeing other people do knowledge work in public. So the way gardening is trying to kind of respond to this old way of thinking about blogging as like this formal finalized, you know, one and done posting situation is to say, well, what if we all put up sort of half baked tiny ideas in small notes that are all interlinked? So writing becomes much easier because you have less pressure to sort of get the final version done and make sure it's perfect. And then put it out. If you're allowed to say, I'm just going to put up a few bullet points. Like I have a vague idea, I might want to write something about it. I want to research topic and maybe figure out what I want to write. You could just put a couple bullet points up in like a small note and be like, I don't really know what I think about this. I'm starting to research this here, some ideas. And then ideally, you're doing this as part of a community or network. You have people who are doing the same stuff, who are researching the same things as you that interested in the same things. And you could send one of them the note and say, hey, I'm researching this. Like if you do know anything about it, have you thought about this? You could start a dialogue with someone, right? You could say, you could start talking to them, seeing if they have any information about that thing. And then update your notes slowly over time until it becomes a more like fleshed out thing until you formalize your ideas on it. It's really just trying to find a way to allow people to think in public without thinking that they have to do anything perfectly. And also like get people to realize they can and should revise their ideas. Yeah. They should be like, oh, I was wrong. I'm going to change what I've written here. Yeah, it's really interesting because it goes into, it relates so much with other things that I really believe that people need in order to be able to think clearly and produce the best possible work they can, which is time. And like, I don't know what the antonym to fast-paced is. Like just having time and having space and being slow, like that slowness, I think really feeds creativity. And that's the, I think I would say that's the biggest thing that we're lacking within the modern infrastructure that we're all operating in. And so what would you say is the, is like the person or like what would you say to the people listening to this podcast is a way that they could practice digital gardening? Well, there's a lot of, I'll say there's a lot of buzz around the term. So like it kind of, it got picked up over the last two years as sort of a good buzz word, which is great. Like I love when people are excited about it and want to be part of digital gardening more. There are tools for it. I think people get caught up on the tools a bit. So I actually have a blog post called Digital Gardening for Non-Technical Folks. And I say that in a way that like if you're not a web developer, then it's most of the tools that are on offer kind of require you to understand how to code a little bit or how the web infrastructure works. And it's, and it's honestly non-trivial. Like when I started in programming, I was so frustrated by the whole ecosystem. I still am. It's still ridiculous. But like most people, it's a real struggle to get a website out and to publish regularly on it. But there are good tools coming up. So there's a few that I'll link up to apps like Obsidian, Chrome Research, LogSec, there's a bunch now that allow you to sort of write notes in a personal database, but then publish specific ones to a public website. Although it might sound strange. One of the things I mostly recommend to people is to use Notion. Notion is very easy to use. It has a wonderful interface and you can just tick specific pages and choose to make them public. And then you can ask pages inside those and then you have a website on the live internet. And there are a few services that help turn Notion into websites. You can like turn a whole database into a website and they help optimize SEO and take care of like custom URLs and domains for you. So I think honestly Notion is what I tell people to do at the moment. I think in the coming years, we are going to see way more tools that make it easier for people to build digital gardens, essentially, like things like WordPress are fantastic, but they are still based on linear blogging and they're on a lot of plugins or tools that allow you to do associative linking or the kind of things you associate with digital gardens like back links and being able to kind of have these small notes rather than whole pages and posts, which are kind of like not the right framing. Yeah, so there's a couple tools, but I'm still waiting for that to be more. Yeah, I mean, I hope that by the time this podcast episode comes out, saying we'll actually be out and alive in beta for people to test out. So, yeah, we're really trying to sort of target this niche of publishing of it being live, of it being like a URL that you can share, whether it's for, I don't know, your random research on transhumanism or your notes on your personal career journey or whether it's actually for doing research and wanting to do that publicly, but I think it's a very interesting space, like specifically for what you mentioned about a lot of these apps being more within like the personal note-taking, knowledge, maintenance, and then being like on the other hand, you know, website builders that are kind of a completely different story. So, I'm very curious to see what people think about what we're trying to build sort of like directly in the middle of of doing both, but I want to talk a little bit about Twitter versus digital gardening because I think they're, what do you think, complimentary or one against the other? I'm sort of in the complimentary boat, one because I like Twitter a lot. I've met some really fantastic people on there and formed tons of fantastic relationships. I think almost every job I've had in the past like eight years has been somehow off Twitter. And there's something with digital gardens are very much like curating knowledge over time, right, in hopes of getting to wisdom or to canonical ideas or to to to understanding, but we still need sort of a place to like play and banter and like, yeah, am I not a swear on this? Yes, you are. Okay. The place to sort of like shit talk, you know, say silly things. And I still believe Twitter is that space, even though people always complain that people get canceled or taken down the things they say on Twitter. I think if you're in the right spaces, it's you, and you follow the right people and they follow you back and you get into good debates and arguments, everyone does it in good faith or like they should. Yeah. Where you read someone else's tweet and you take it in the best possible light and you presume that they are not being malicious or hurtful. Because yeah, we do need space to just sort of have these these casual back and forth. And at the moment, it could fit into digital gardening somehow, but the web, um, infrastructure or what we have on the web at the moment doesn't really have a lot of protocols or or tools that would allow us to have that sort of quick back and forth chat in a in a personal website kind of frame. You need a sort of collective place to do it. Um, so I find it complimentary. I don't know that Twitter's like the 10 year solution to this problem, but for now, it's, it's pretty good. Yeah. Well, how do these ideas or what you're talking about now relate with the terms campfires, personal wikis? Well, personal wikis, I think we've kind of touched on, but then the cozy web, which I think is very interesting in terms of thinking about Twitter versus digital gardens versus something else. Right. Yeah. So all of these ideas of like campfires and cozy web stuff, um, so I drew a little like timeline related to digital gardening, where on one side, you sort of have, um, I get what I call it, but like very formalized ways of communicating with other humans, which I put on one end, like publishing a book, right? That's very like you are taking the mainstream approach to publishing information. You are working on it for years. You're not, you know, making a beautiful cover and, and it's the most formal. And also sort of like, or not authoritarian, but, you know, traditionalist or authority, medium. And then on the other side of the spectrum, we have, um, the cozy web and streams and like kind of, I think I call them chaotic streams and it's things like Slack, WhatsApp, Twitter. It's the places where we're just doing quick back and forth messages, especially ones in private like WhatsApp and Slack groups, where you're not even needing to sense yourself that much. We're just playing with ideas and it's very, very informal. And the digital gardening is somewhere in the middle of these two. It's trying to find a happy middle ground between the public formal presentation of information and the very loose, just like playing around with ideas. Um, and so this idea of the cozy web is that, um, the internet has become like a dark scary place. It's like filled with like, advertisers and, and data surveillance. Um, and it's just sort of everyone like marketing themselves and it's just sort of like a place we've all wanted to kind of retreat from in recent years and the cozy web is this idea of us all going underground into like cozier groups like the slacks and the WhatsApps and retreating from public internet life because we're afraid of people misinterpreting us being canceled, right? Like, of not being taken in appropriate context like people don't know who we are, where we come from. So they can't interpret our words correctly. Yeah, like Twitter, you just have a username and often like a bio that doesn't tell you that much and you can't like understand the father of four and you like can't figure out, you know, where they're coming from versus obviously in real life, we have way more physical and visual cues to be like, okay, I get where this person is maybe, you know, from a from a nation like what, how they relate to me in society. I have more clues about like how to take their words versus on the internet, which don't have that. So the cozy web is yes, the idea of retreating into smaller private groups, where we have more context for the people we're talking to and then are free to express ideas and have debates and engage in real conversations. Which is very much needed because basically the, you know, the internet did, it was create complete context and content collapse by making us consume especially, you know, especially the likes of Facebook, Twitter, etc, where we read, you know, weird things about our family pet and about the one in Ukraine within the same place, within the same environment, within the same sort of head space that we're in. So it's, I think, very necessary to sort of think about how to rebuild context and content online, but at the same time, make sure that we have safe spaces to do that publicly as well because it's not kind of the point of the internet to be able to exchange ideas. Yeah. I mean, this could be, I sometimes think about like what infrastructure we need to do this sort of thing, where to have a bit of like a private side to something like the digital garden where only some people have access. Yeah. I don't know if this would maybe could exist in some, some tools like sane or other ones that are trying to help people build digital gardens online, where what we want out of the cozy web right is that little bit of intimacy with people, what we know who's reading it, and we just want to test ideas. And there are tons of times where I have a draft of something I'm working on, and it's still very, very rough bullet points, and I'm almost ready to publish it, but I kind of want to send it to one person first to kind of get their feedback, and I'll put it on my website, but on a head in URL and then send them the URL. And I'm trying to think of ways of how I could do this, isn't like kind of that, although that's a good way around, but this sort of like semi-public for some people is one way to do it. Yeah. I didn't have a space for that somewhere in digital gardening where we want to share things that aren't fully public, but are semi-public. Yeah. I always thought that was very, like I always thought about like why I subscribe to things on YouTube, for example, like I never subscribe to anything on YouTube. I just go on YouTube and I sort, maybe because I'm not a very good YouTube user, but I always thought that subscribing to a channel in YouTube was like unnecessary and a bit weird being like if I, you know, like why would I, but I think in this case, like a subscription to someone would be actually a good way, because if I subscribe to, you know, you on whatever platform it is that you are publishing in, then I am telling you that I am like very interested in your work. Like I'm not just a passerby, but I have decided to like commit some of my like, I don't know, internet capital to give to this or attention, like maybe attention to give to you and therefore you can consider me as being like truly interested and like maybe a good group to test ideas on. But some people might be just like passing by and having a look at your work and being like this is cool, but you know, they're not making, willing to make that commitment of being, you know, like giving active daily, you know, attention or whatever, you know, monthly attention to your work. So maybe that could actually be an interesting feature or something to think about is like subscribing to certain spaces to get sort of active feedback back as waste. Yeah. Like I know people obviously do that now with newsletters, right? Email newsletters. Yeah. Medium. Or a Patreon. Like I'm in a really wonderful Patreon with Andy Moutouchek is again one of these people who is big and digital gardening has a wonderful public collection of notes, sort of everyone sort of forms over. I think they're very appropriately. They're great. You sort of, yeah. Like an example. But he has a Patreon and it's sort of also a skin in the game thing where you pay a tiny bit of money each month to help support him, it's an independent researcher, but you get his kind of unfiltered early essays, you know, access to new things. So we can see we do have some mediums for it, but I'm still always bothered by this. It's being facilitated by platforms like Patreon or SubStack in the case of newsletters, which isn't inherently bad, but I keep trying to be like, well, how could we just put some the open web, you know, how could we put this on the independent web so that we're not always relying on third party private companies to give us these tools? Yeah. It's super difficult and like the development of saying we've had so many conversations on thinking about how, like, how could you actually make this public, like, how could you just make this like, but it's, I mean, if anyone has any idea of listening that isn't extremely difficult from an engineering perspective, like, dude, hell. But yeah, I mean, I think, like, still for me, it's very, very, very difficult to wrap my mind around to understand like how it could actually function without any third party facilitators because also someone needs to take the responsibility of making sure that things are improving and listening to users and listen, you know, and like developing things. And I find the idea of Web 3 very complex at times to understand like, what is Web 3? What is the ultimate goal? Because as far as I see it, there's a lot of problems in every direction that you're looking at. It's like a nice idea and something I think is a very important discussion, something to strive towards, but realistically, like, realistically, practically speaking yet to be determined obviously for everyone, but, yeah, I think it's, I'm very, I'm very excited to kind of see how these things develop and what kind of projects get put out that are truly sort of community driven or public. Yeah. Because the ethos of a lot of the Web 3 projects is appealing and like, despite all the, like, you know, silly buzzwords that like, follow around it and all the crypto stuff. It is like, it's just trying to get back to this ethos of, and yeah, it could be a private third party company providing tools, but it's more wanting, wanting ones that are not necessarily driven by tons of VC funding because then you get into that trap of they have to do the 10 extra turn and that ends up being, well, we'll just, we'll just sell the users data to like, you know, insurance companies out the back door because how will we pay for this? Exactly. Yeah. It's just a needing a cultural change way could definitely be private companies, but ones that just take a very different approach to funding and sustainability and responsibility to that users. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm, yeah, I think a lot of things will change and I think Twitter is in that sense a very interesting place to be following along because you're just getting like a constant stream of everyone's predictions and hypothesis for the next couple of years, just a bit overwhelming and wild at times. It's also interesting. Is there anything else you'd like to mention on here and talk about that you think we have encountered? Do you think we're pretty on track? I think we did fairly well and trying to think of anything I didn't touch on. I mean, people always end up asking you out like, what's the future of digital gardening stuff? Although I feel like we touched on it quite well because most of my concern around that is around tooling. So it's just getting people to build platforms that enable, yeah, non-programmes, non-technical people, people who aren't as savvy in web development to do it because at the moment, it's very much like lots and lots and lots of web developers have digital gardens. They are all digital gardening about JavaScript arrays and rust and all these technical topics which are just completely fine, but it's sort of like, kind of want like insurance agents and like nurses and like, you know, third grade teachers to also be part of this. And to do that, we're going to need very, very different tools available to people. It's a hard problem, but you know, it's like being in a decade, we're probably going to get somewhere with it. Yeah. Let's see. Well, thank you so much, Maggie. This has been an absolute pleasure. I think my favorite topic in the world, so thanks so much for the time. Yeah. Thank you for having this. It is wonderful.