Ep 001 - Joe Wooding - The Summer Quarter Podcast

Speaker 1 All right, Joe, let's do this. Josh. Darius Students know me is Darius and. This is episode 001 of the Summer Quarter Podcast, a podcast that is aimed to provide thought provoking content for students, past and present educators, lifelong learners who are in their summer quarter or their summer break just to keep the thinker going. Thinking about a whole slew of different. Topics and themes and I'm very, very, very excited about this podcast and I'm excited to provide some conversations for Y'all to listen to as we go through this season of the podcast. The hope is to create seasons of this podcast every summer quarter, which makes sense. So before we even jump in to any interviews. We have to recap some of the very important information when it comes to the classes I teach and what this podcast is about. And this will be a recap. If you were in my class this quarter, I'm sorry this year, if you were in past classes, meaning the 2122 school year, this wasn't a part of the curriculum, but now it is so. Let's just talk about creativity. Oftentimes, people think of creativity as this art form, whether it be painting, drawing, music and that. Those are the only forms of creativity. I want to challenge that thinking and I'm going to use one of the. Creative Genius Geniuses of our time to help frame out what this podcast means when we say creativity. And that genius that we're Speaking of is Quincy Jones. If you don't know who Quincy Jones is, he is one of the most influential musicians of our time. Let me give you a quick. A little background on him. He was born in Chicago in 1933, moved to Bremerton, WA at the age of 10, then moved to Seattle. Attended Garfield High School. He was a trumpeter and arranger, and in in Seattle is where he met Ray Charles. He's tied for the most Grammy Award nominations. That's eighty with Jayz, second most wins with 28, tied with Beyoncé. He helped create Michael Jackson's Off the Wall, the album, Thriller album, Bad Album, executive producer of Fresh Prince, of Bel Air, the original. He's also the author of a book called 12 Notes on Life and Creativity. Now in this book, Chrissy Jones offers his definition of creativity, and that is creativity is made-up of two parts, science and soul, left and right brain. The scientific side is that which needs to be learned and practiced. But the soulful side, which is composed of emotions, is something that can't be taught. It's simply the essence of who you are as a human being. So completely separating ourselves from this thought of creativity, being, drawing, painting, sculpting, those types of things, I would argue that those are art forms in which. Creativity can be used to express an emotion or a story. But if we were to back up even more and break down creativity, based on Quincy Jones's words, it is a balance of two sides of us our science, our linear, logical, rational. Side and then our soul, our emotions, our feelings, our essence, our spirit being pushed through that structure, that linear side in the form of a creation. Now these creations can be, can be anything. They could, they can be drawing, they can be a painting, they can be a sculpture, A sculpture. They can be music, they can be all these things but. It can also be creating a program within an institution. It can be creating an event for a business. There are a multitude of ways in which we can use our creativity to create something new. My course is a social justice course and something I mentioned over and over again is how much people are so focused on the problem and not creating a solution. And so the aim here is to really focus on our ability to to create. We are creators, so how do we tap into those two sides of us, find harmony between those two things to create something that makes the world a better place? That's the question. The class spends a lot of time delving deep trying to build some selfawareness as well. And so one question I asked the students is if we are, if we are on a spectrum between the science side and the soulful side, some might think of it as the thinker and the feeler, where might you fall on that spectrum? Are you more on the science side or are you on the feeler side? And this question isn't meant to pigeonhole you? Into one or the other sides. We all have capacity to do both, and in fact, to be creative, we have to be able to do both. I'm sure we can think of examples of people in our lives that are logical, linear, rational, and maybe not have too much access to their fields. And then vice versa, there might be somebody with big fields. Big emotions and lacks the structure of that linear side. I'm a very good example of someone that's very that defaults to that feeler side. Structure is something that I tend to reject and I reject to my own detriment. I can think of examples when I was public speaking and rolled out a structure and outline. Before I stepped on stage, and as I was on stage, I was looking at the outline and I thought to myself, who wrote this? Who was trying to tell me what to say. But that was me. So if we can find the balance between those two things, then we have the potential to create. Quincy Jones has made a global impact with his music and. For him to acknowledge that it is the balance between these two things is words of wisdom that I think that we ought to take to heart. Later in the book he talks about sharpening your left your left brain, meaning sharpening your technical skills, putting in the practice, repetition and then also. Finding a way to access your soul. And if you want to create something, I challenge you to see what side you lean on and see, discover ways in which you can access that other side of you. So that's sort of the understanding of creativity for this podcast moving forward is. This blend of your thinker and your feeler. This blend of two sides of you that can often times be in conflict, just like I was on conflict when I was on stage trying to follow my own outline. Ponder that as we go through these next few weeks, thinking about where you might fall on that spectrum. And yeah, finding ways to find the balance point. So. Moving forward, we will be having guests come on to the podcast and the aim is for these guests and the stories that they tell that they be data points for you to collect and and listen to and add to your perspective on ways in which you can create change in whatever realm. Of the society you find yourself in. We're going to have guests in the education realm, in the business realm, in the nonprofit realm all over. And each one of these guests will be talking about their experience creating something that wasn't there before. And I'm bringing these interviews to you by way of this podcast as a way to see that the work is underway. I think that often times when we think about our society's downfalls. We can just get trapped in the frustration and the anger and the rage of recognizing that there's areas in which the society is not serving all people. But taking some time to listen to the work that has already been done can offer some hope for people that want to see a change in our society so. With that, let's jump into our first interview, Speaker 2 introduce y'all to a good friend? His name is Joe Wooding and he has been working the public school system since. Speaker 3 1996. Speaker 2 Since 1996. Speaker 3 Up and on in different roles in different ways but. The student in the mix. Speaker 2 The students will say that's late in 19, late 1900s. Speaker 3 I think it's old school now. I think it technically 1996. Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Speaker 3 I was down in Federal Way of Public Schools. Speaker 2 OK. How long did you teach in Federal Way? Speaker 3 I was in the district for three years, two of those years with AmeriCorps and then I was hired. Basically it was doing the same thing but getting paid. Speaker 2 And then when did you end up in Billingham? Speaker 3 1999 I've been here ever since. Followed a girl. Oh yeah. Speaker 2 Is it who I think it is it? Speaker 3 Is it's the Razzle Dazzle aka Ronster Monster, Reynelda or Ronnie Weston? Speaker 2 And then when you started teaching in Bellingham, where was that at? Speaker 3 Yeah, that was at Bellingham High School. Let me go back. I mean, my my time in Bellingham first started at Squalicum. I was working in the Emotional Behavior Disorder program. At the time that was it was called Focus. Now it's called Bridges. But I was working in that program as a pair educator and then I went back to school to get a teaching certificate and I enrolled in Woodrings Masters and teaching program and after earning my certificate my first job was at Bellingham High School. I started off as a longterm leave replacement for the Life skills program at Bellingham which you know provides services for students with. Significant cognitive and physical disabilities. And then just, you know, slowly my contracts are built up. It was initially an amalgamation of like leave, replacement, para educator and teaching, and then over time grew into a fulltime continuing teaching contract jump from Bellingham to Kulshin and then options and then back to Squalicum. And I'm still at options too, but. Speaker 2 And current, yes, currently you're splitting between. Speaker 3 Yeah, currently a little bit, a little bit of my time is that squalicum and then the rest is that options. Speaker 2 Many of the things that is brought up in class in the classes that I teach are come from a lot of the conversations that we have had over the years. A lot of it has to do with creativity and how to innovate a system and how to change. And create change and over and over, I talk about the importance of, yeah, focusing on that creation, that creating part that's like the fun part of trying to shift the system that's been historically marginalizing for from the start. And so I think it would be really cool just to pull from the language that we use in class. I'm talking asking about your own creativity type by way of that Adobe quiz. But also discussing what you created over the last couple years by way of ethnic studies in the public school system. So you took the creativity types, which one did you get or two that resonated with you and why? Speaker 3 Yeah, I took the the test a couple times. The first time my results were the maker, and the description I thought was relevant in many ways, but I thought it would overemphasize the science. Piece I think I mean some of the signature strengths associated with the maker type are just like focused dedication, deliberate practice, right, really honing your craft. And then and I think what resonated with me was sort of I like to think of myself as a capacity booster. You know that where you know if I can find someone I can connect with, collaborate with someone who's down to get down, I think I often AM. You know that again that capacity booster, that Energizer Bunny, like someone who can harness and channel energy into an idea to make it, to make it real, to bring it to fruition. But I thought again over, I've emphasized and again just this is sort of referring back to Quincy Jones as definition of creativity and striking that balance between the the science and the soul. I thought the maker type is a little bit too much science in terms of just. Just the the overemphasis on sort of that rationalism and that's so I took it again and then this time I I, you know, I I had Ronnie give me some feedback on a couple of the items that I was struggling to answer. And then and then and then the second time around came out as the dreamer and and I thought the again, there's many, many elements of the description that again that resonated, but I thought I overemphasized. The soul part but what did but what did resonate with me was again that that that like the like radical imagination. And for me, yeah I like I often this line comes from one of our favorite artists Curtis Mayfield. Dreaming and scheming. You know and. Remember your dreams are your only schemes so keep on pushing so I think I'm I'm I'm I'm known for for using that phrase quite a bit so that you know so the the maker type is that capacity booster. I think that that's that's a characteristic or a signature strength that I I bring to a creative in Denver and endeavor excuse me and then and then the dreaming is scheming. And I think those are complimentary. Speaker 2 A question that I tend to ask the students and anybody, whoever, whenever, have the opportunity to is what's your creative outlet? In what ways do you feel like you find this blend of your sides and make? I think I asked this question especially in academic settings because I feel like a lot of times a lot of folks are rolling, meaning they have their position, their job description, they're operating within that and they leave so many parts of them at home that they are doing this role in education. And some of the rants that I'll go off in class is. If a person's rolling, what are we modeling for the students? We're not really modeling wholeness. We're just modeling an individual trying to do a job. And so I love asking folks to share a little bit about what their creative outlets are in class. It's the first question I'll ask in class and. I've had some students that say I like listening to music or I like reading, and I would argue that that's intake. We're looking at outflow. What do you like to? What do you generate? What are some of your creative outlets? Speaker 3 Yeah, no way. You just shared made me think of a quote that's on a wall of a colleague. Create more, consume less. I think for me, a lot of it's been played. And actually that was my that was my one, like one bone of contention with the maker description. Is this not enough not enough play almost too too oriented towards productivity And and actually I think I mean now that I think about it actually it's probably a fair a fair description of sort of the rut I was in recently and realizing not enough play in my life that's like, so for me play. Whether that's just like basketball or right now pickle ball. If you need, if you want to play, let me know. I'm available in summertime but for me I think with the those two examples have in common is something where yeah you got to be it's like live in real time in the moment read and react with others and. It's almost like synergy, right, Like you like you can't do it by yourself, you got to, you got to have the group. So those have been right, like more recently just getting like reviving my relationship to play. I think for a longer extended period it's been probably graphic art. And I think, I mean if if I were to say like what's my medium, I'd say my medium right now or like slideshow presentations, Yes man, I think, I mean I feel like I'm a PowerPoint guru, although I don't use PowerPoint very much it's more Google slide guru. But I mean but the but the bottom line is just like how to how to distill down a concept using imagery, you know to to convey the idea. And I don't know elegance, how to, how to, how to render something complex and elegantly. So that's that's fun. I find it to be like a creative challenge and I often think of my think, think in terms of pictures. I'm not sure if you're familiar with like Royal Science Science Academy, they used to make these, these summaries or synopses of books and there was somebody, somebody would be narrating. The content and then but what you would see on the YouTube video is just somebody drawing out the the summary illustrating it on a whiteboard and that's stuck with me and you know so I think you know since then you know I approach you know that like the graphic art using slideshow suites to to kind of capture that something similar. Speaker 2 Which is so important. I feel like we've all sat through PowerPoint presentations that are just like. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. And I think also too is a. So it's not just how to represent content or convey content, but also I, you know, collect me the classroom. I mean I if I feel like as an educator, like I mean just like life, it's like a lot of its performance. But taking advantage of that in in class, not only there's a captive audience, but I mean more so is just what can, what can we do together we can't do on our own. And and again, back to the trying to revive a spirit of play is taking advantage of moments to to seeing, to dance, to to be more human, right to to tap into the soul part of creativity. Speaker 2 100% Oh yeah. One of the questions that I was asked the students is thinking about their K through 12 education. Is it leaning more towards that science side or is there that soul side, you know, and 99% of the time the students are saying it's on that. Linear, logical, rational side. And so yeah, the whole is similar in class that we find the balance between the two and there's improv and fun and lightness and but also really difficult conversations. Also, I do want to dig deeper on you circling back to play. Can I ask what brought that back? What, What made you realize you needed that more? In your life. Speaker 3 I mean, part of the problem was the pandemic, you know, so we're being encouraged in mass to practice social distancing. And I think with that, I think a lot of people can relate to it, just the the isolation that comes with this. And then our culture, when I say our culture, American culture encourages us to treat leisure. Like a job, you know, right. So time is money, right? I got to schedule out my time, you know. And so our leisure be just becomes another form of work. And So what I found with at least with like physical play, you know, I wasn't necessarily playing, but I was exercising quite a bit. But it was just became very utilitarian. You know, go to the gym, you know, burn a certain number of calories, perform a certain number of reps and after a while life just becomes mechanistic. And that becomes alienating because everything just becomes again just a task to perform. So that was a realization and I think the invitation was you you know you you reaching out and hey just look like he's to the gym. I'm like yeah. And and convening the convening a group to play to hoop you know periodically and you know then since then that's now it's it's a ritual. So shout out to you. Speaker 2 Even though I'm hit or miss, and I mean that in seasons of showing up to play basketball. In seasons of not showing up and making buckets or air balling. Speaker 3 No, but see, this is where this is where you know this. My Maker side compliments your you know your visionary side, right? You sparked the idea and someone like me. Comes along, I can stoke it into reality, right? Or just keep it going. So I still going. Speaker 2 Can I can I zoom into the to an element of play that you had mentioned? You said you enjoyed reading and reacting very specifically. What moments in basketball or pickleball where there's a read and react that is just like you love that about? Play playing that sport. Speaker 3 Yeah, I think with the, I mean, I think basketball is probably more conducive to the kind of creativity that that comes with. Like that's, I don't know, now, like it's the dancing, you know, because there's a rhythm to it. Pickable can. I think most people when I play, like when people give me feedback, like people who are really good, they go, man, you get around the court really well. Did you move around too much? You need to be more even more efficient you know apparently need to be incorporate more science into my soulfully yeah well but but that's the part I like where you just like it's just the dance. It's the move and it's the grooving it's A and I think with people what I appreciate is means school because so relational can be very intense and which I enjoy about it. And appreciate it because it's that satisfies a driving need. However, you know too much can be overwhelming. And so what's what I also enjoy about whether it's basketball, pickleball, just any sort of social kind of play, is, is there's more, there's just more flow, if that makes sense. Speaker 2 Talk more about it. Speaker 3 Yeah, I just the the level the the kind of engagements different and so I think that the the kind of engagement. Requires an activation of intuition that so that getting back to that read and react rather than kind of a deliberate, hyper focused, intense type of engagement that often comes with what we encounter just in school. Speaker 2 So what I'm hearing you say is almost reading and reacting those moments in play. Require you to not overthink. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, and when you when you work in education and the name of the game is thinking, then it can be. It's a nice break from the thing that we are swimming in, in academia. Speaker 3 Yeah, it's all day. Yeah. I appreciate you put a much more like succinct way than I was. So you helped me. It helps. It helps me to frame what I'm trying to get to and I think what in this sense is like more being, less thinking. I mean, I guess getting back to the definition of creativity, Quincy Jones definition is, you know, less analytical, more synthesis because you just you mean you got to create something now and there's not time to to overthink it. What is it? Analysis paralysis? Speaker 2 I love thinking about overthinking, meaning I love thinking about how it can get in the way of so many things. The first thing that comes to mind is there's that scene in Last Samurai where he's trying to learn a technique and whoever teaching him says no mind. Like stop thinking. That leads me to a story from freshman year in basketball where we're up by like 25, so I was playing. They had me bringing up the ball. The ball I was point guard and the coach yield, uh, one. That was the name of the play. That's isolation play. So the posts go down to the blocks, the wings go down to the three-point line baseline and it's just the point guard and the and the person. And I freak out and I I'm like going through my legs. I'm going both ways behind my back and doing all these different moves. Trying to get this because I have this isolation play and my my overthinking was manifested through all these different moves that the defender was just standing there and he didn't didn't have to do anything right? And what happens? I end up losing the ball, I bounce it off my my foot and that's it, right? And there's a parallel there to what overthinking can do. And then Fast forward in time where I'm watching professional athletes talking about. Techniques in basketball and it's it's essentially simplification. You know if you if you jab step right and they don't go then you go or if they do go then you go left and it's just every single step. The idea of don't pre plan anything. They're reading, reading and reacting and be in the moment and just choose the appropriate option and not overthink it. You know, because thinking what takes you somewhere else? Speaker 3 Yeah, it's also think too just like sort of cognitive overload paradox of choice, right. And you have range of possibilities is too broad. I mean I think it's sort of similar if the thinking about too much, it just you know like paradoxically sets us up to to narrowly focus and then rather than having sort of this broad peripheral kind of perception boom. Our attention becomes really myopic and often times because people don't want to mess up, make the wrong choice. Speaker 2 There's a philosophy that I heard, and it's to critique, to build up rather than to build down or to tear down. And I didn't quite know what that meant until I had a student who spent like 45 minutes telling me that they were not a good writer. And talking about all the reasons why they were not. And then they turned in. And a writing assignment that was beautifully written. Yeah. And in that moment I realized, oh, this is an opportunity to critique, to build up. And in the comments I literally wrote, how dare you take the time to tell me you're a bad writer because this is so good. Right. So that was there is the critique and it. And it wasn't focused on all the flaws and all the things that they did wrong, but it was a critique to say no, here's there's some there's a disconnect between your own belief on yourself and what you're what you're creating, you know? And I found that a lot of students, when I give feedback, it's mainly positive feedback. In Canvas, the students can see notifications when I write something on their homework and. Number, the students started seeing these notifications pings and they started getting worried. They started get panicking because they said, oh, they did this, I did the assignment all wrong and then they opened it up and it's me writing all these listening noises like Oh yes, 100% yes, agreed, agreed. And it's all this positive feedback and I think about in education how much we're working out our critical mind to the point where it's what's ruling our internal worlds is that critical mind. And everything's critical. And here's all the bad things about this and all the bad things about this. And I'm finding that it's it's not about cutting that off, but it's about balancing it out with focusing on the positives as well, you know. But I think that sometimes that's overlooked in education, how much we're critiquing the students and grading them and oftentimes grading them down and the impact that that can have on the individuals. And how they view themselves. Speaker 3 And I think the comparison to grades is interesting in a sense of like all right the way the most grading structures are set up discourage risk taking. So you know once you once you've earned A/B or an A like the you know the the way that the game is arranged so to speak is is it encourages you to just to maintain. Because if you if you if you take that risk and it you know and you're not rewarded for it then you know your grade goes down you know and so when grades are you know constantly a shifting target you know it's in your interest to you can't lose if you don't play right just like stay in your lane. And so I think to your point is is you know when this is where like I think. In contrast to a lot of like the reward system in grades versus like video games, like we're video games, you're encouraged to fail, right? Just because there's no what. You just start over, you know and then and and then when you know and then to your example right when that. I guess this would be like the positive framing of critique. We're going to focus on what's working. We're going to, we're going to we're going to employ an asset based approach like keep doing that keep doing that right. And so things like video games with like that OK, when it works right, your XP or your points they accumulate. They just they go up, they don't, they don't go up and down like what grades do right. I got a wait no way I got to be like what You know I think it gets confusing and and then and then people don't know what to do. They didn't and so they do nothing. Because there's not, there's not a consequence rather than taking a risk to seek out that reward. And I think you know with your example with with canvas, right, is this just like, hey, keep doing this right, like you said, spotlighting what's working? Speaker 2 We've experienced those students where it's just tell me what to do. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 You know, like don't leave anything ambiguous like just tell me what I need to do in this assignment. And then we'll be okay you. Speaker 3 Know. Yeah, that's the that's the consequence of of a feedback system, you know that overemphasizes, you know, failure, right. Let's go back to grades, right. I mean the whole like most most ranges. Set you I mean they they overemphasize failing for what's so from 0% to 59% your chances for failure much greater than that the chances for for passing you know we're talking about you know 80 to 100% you know only 20% is is is allocated for what we deem as meeting standard adequate. Or exceptional. Speaker 2 And for many of the students, when they get a name, it's like, oh, good, I got it, Yeah, you know, yeah. It's not as big of a celebration. Speaker 3 So I, you know, mention that that is is this like notion of compliances? How much like schooling is is designed to encourage compliance rather than agency? Tell me what to do or rather than what do I get to do or what do I want to do because that requires people to make decisions. Speaker 2 And that goes back to a lot of the the talked about creativity and why it's being stifled is that there's a standard that needs to be met. Don't deviate, just meet the standard. But then, yes, the question remains, OK, in what ways are we encouraging the students to access their own authenticity and creativity and to have the bravery to bring something new to an assignment? Speaker 3 Because if you know, if we're telling you, hey, take, be a risk taker, make a decision, own your learning, oh, your grade just went down 10% right then. And then you're not creating conditions conducive to being creative. So students learn that it's safer just to be compliant. Speaker 2 Tell me about ethnic studies. This has been the baby for the last couple years from the start to. How it went I'd love for everyone to be able to hear the whole process. How did even how did you even get on the table? Speaker 3 Yeah, I was surprised when I learned that ethnic studies was going to be adopted by our district. And the reason why I was surprised just because there's people who've been involved in related work for a long time who weren't necessarily at the table. And so like why why now And what I realized is that when there is legislation and you can get a system to to to enact change because that first. That first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that first like why why now And then then I was like well, why not And then later I then later I learned Oh well yeah there's a there's state mandate at the time it was to. For districts to develop materials and resources and our district decided to take that one step further and actually develop a class. And so I was fortunate enough to participate in in thinking through what that that course description might include and entail. I I wasn't a part of the initial cohort that taught the class in our district but but just because. FTE shifted, Employment shifted. People were moved or transferred to different schools. There was an opening up over at Squalicum and and I was asked if I'd be willing to teach the class. And then so let me think about it. And then my, my, my next move was to call Verto Velez. Veronica Velez. Professor of education up at Woodring College of education at Western Washington University and and I asked hey I've been offered the opportunity to teach ethnic studies. You want to you want to tag team this And she's like yes. So I I called the district back said I'm in and so I think coming back to our conversational creativity something that I've I've come to realize that I need is I need I need a a collaborative partner. And and I can't imagine doing this work just in a conventional setting where you know you know how school is, most of it is alone on your own in your four walls. And and ethnic studies, I think the spirit of ethnic studies, it comes out of social justice movements whether it's it's decolonization movements from Africa and Asia or civil rights struggle here in the United States these. Ethnic studies comes out of opposition to the state. And So what does it mean when now it's embraced by the state And so, So for me as a, you know, yeah, you know I harbor this assumption that if if you ask this is part of my job to teach ethnic studies, there's a comment on me to. To embrace the spirit of ethnic studies, the soul of ethnic studies, which is resistance, rebellion, revolution, and the sense of complicating people's relationship not only with the state but with also their understanding of diversity, equity, inclusion, like for whom and for what? Is it also part of that is just how do we, how do we structure the class, You know, so simple is just like we sit in a circle rather than in rows. You know everybody has an opportunity to to contribute A-frame frame contributions to the classroom in terms of of gifts, you know, so for you know adolescence. The challenge of adolescence is to notice and name and claim your gifts. Who are you? And then the challenge of transitioning to adulthood is to own those. Own the gift of who you are and give those to your people. Whoever your people are, you know your people could be your classmates, could be the people in your neighborhood, could be be the broader community of the city. So reframing What's the what's the What's the purpose of education? And coming back to ethnic studies, I think, I think again teaching this class, I assume that I have the invitation that can complicate what we think we know about ethnic studies. And I and I'd venture to guess that for many administrators and and educators that the ethnic studies is probably synonymous with multicultural education. Multi multicultural education is more about sitting and getting. Information about other people, you know, learning about, you know, black history or indigenous history, Asian American history, you know, history of various communities that have been, you know, rendered other where ethnic studies are really about how do you make a difference in other people's lives. It's not simply about learning about other people. Because if, if and there's nothing wrong about learning about about other people's experiences, but it still maintains the same. The the same dynamic where schooling often you sit, you get, you consume, regurgitate and then you move on, you know after the assessment. And that's not what exercise is about, right? Again, not learning about other people is about making a difference in other people's lives and and so again sitting in circle. Engaging one another trying to Co generate and create a shared experience You know that's that's you know one way we do that dedicating a lot of time to Foster and cultivate intimacy intimacy and I think many many people struggle with that because it just just don't have out many opportunities to practice. Engaging in those forms of interactions with strangers, with the public, like thinking publicly. Because again, most most learning is done privately. I do an assignment. I might share it with a teacher, teacher gives, gives me feedback. Maybe it goes on the refrigerator, most likely goes in a recycle bin, but it it's but knowledge gets hoarded rather than shared. And so trying to trying to instill an ethic of openness again, like thinking publicly, moving from me to we. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, building those listening skills, Yeah. I feel like one of the emphasis is in in my own classes to build a space in which individuals feel comfortable to share their perspective so that it creates an A more enriched environment in which you're hearing from so many different people. And so I hear it's parallels in. Ethnic studies to be to create that space. And now the curriculum is the lives of the individuals sitting in that circle being able to hear their experience within the society that we're all creating together. Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a mean. There's a lot of overlap in the way I would describe. It is like listening as an act of love. I was that excited about about love. How do you How do you manifest care? Cuz cuz institutions provide service, but they can't provide care. Only community can provide real care. So here's an opportunity to manifest care through listening as an act of love. Speaker 2 What are some of the highlights that you would pull from the last couple years in teaching ethnic studies in this different way? Speaker 3 Yeah, I'd say going back to what you had mentioned about. Listening and creating a place in space where people's lived experience has become the content of the curriculum, so to speak. You didn't necessarily put it in that way, but that's what that's what I heard. And encouraging students to see the classroom as a place of an opportunity to expand. Expand the the range of understanding you know, rather than be you know, rather than be right, you know, really focusing on fostering those relationships. I mean, it's right because people don't care about what you know until they know you care and creating, establishing that hate we care. So so tell me more and that's so I'd say I've had several things, several students. You know who you know? I asked, Like, why are you here? Like what? What brought you here? You know? And most would say, all my counselor put me in this class, you know, so they necessarily choose to be there, which makes the Ethnic studies tricky here in the elective class, you know. And then ethnic studies comes out of grassroots social movements. And now now it's, you know, now it's part of, like, you know, approved. Course and and and the catalog you know, I guess what I'm saying is like it's it's now it's it's institutionalized and that's becomes challenging. But anyway you know students like you know I was put here you know I have to be here rather than I get to be here And then by the end like that narrative shifts all. I'm so glad I get to be here but what that. What that sounds like often times is is at the beginning, at the beginning of the class. Like day one, day one like if I really knew you what would I need to know? And and I conduct this anonymous exercise where I I share some cards. Students. Students respond to the prompt on index cards. But I share what previous classes have expressed and and I give them a chance. If we really knew you. The goal of this class is intimacy. This the goal of this class is to cultivate. Sense of humanity connection If I really knew you what would I need to know in this context And and you know there's a few where this is before we even get to anything in the classes as if you really knew me. You know I'm I'm opposed to everything this this class stands for. Yeah it's and then by the end students who expressed that would reveal like oh man how to get you and better from the get go. But this class is just different, you know? And so just being able to, again, I just conveyed to students, I guess, through through the power of our presence and what we were able to collectively create with students is is man not about being right, it's about us. You know, and and do we'll do we have the kind of relationship that's going to help us create something greater than ourselves, whatever that is, is that whatever, whatever that political project is, whether it's democracy or you know, that's like on a very large scale narrowly, you know. How do we how do we shift what we're doing here from just going along to getting along to you actually learning flipping the script on school? Speaker 2 What's something that you think other classes should take from the way in which ethnic studies is taught? Speaker 3 I don't know. Going back to like what the previous question about what's like a success is, that is blurring the boundaries between what's happening in the class and what's happening in the community. I think. I think. I think. You know, for many students, it's like men's school is just just means that you're. That means real life is on pause. Yeah. And we wanted to emphasize that no, this is real life. You're living life right now. And so you've got the gift of time. You know, how do you transform precious knowledge into positive action? Precious knowledge, meaning like the the expertise that you've gained and gleaned from your experience into positive actions into into, you know, meaningful change. And one way we blurred the the boundary between the classroom and the community is just we're trying to bring in community partners who are on the ground. Doing this work locally, when I say this work, it just depending on on what the we've had folks come in from who are working with issues around homelessness, affordable housing addiction, mental health, militarism, incarceration. And these are, these are some of the topics that students were curious about and interested in addressing. And so just bringing you know bringing folks into the mix and I the way I would frame it is a veterans and vanguards of of social justice in our community. And again kind of going back to Okay, what do we what do we mean by social justice? I love Cornell West definition of justice is what love looks like in the public. So I have people who are manifesting care in our community. So just trying to get students connected with folks. And you know, should students want to continue to follow their curiosity and to transform precious knowledge into positive action while they know they would, they would know where to go, you know, after the after the semester. I mean the semester is enough time to do an assignment. But I mean, like life's a work in progress or any kind of social justice project is a work in progress, as you know. And it's messy and it's never done. And you just adapt and improvise and and keep the growing going. You know, we tried to we we tried to instill that message that hey, you don't need us to make to make a difference in this world. What we have to offer as we know folks and we we have, we have. We have our own expertise that comes from our own experience. But you don't need, you're not dependent on us and do it or don't. Speaker 2 Yeah. At the top, we talked about creativity in that spectrum and finding that balance and it seems and we also talked about education sort of leaning towards that sciency side it seems. To me, based off of everything that you had mentioned that ethic studies is trying to find that middle point, trying to bring that heart into the classroom and what is it? What does it look like to stimulate and grow your thinker, but also being attuned to those heart issues that oftentimes are left at at maybe in the parking lot or at the front door and not necessarily brought in? Speaker 1 What's? Speaker 2 What's next for ethnic studies? What's next for you? What's when we think about being a creator? Creativity. What? What might be on the horizon? Speaker 3 Yeah, with like the studies, yeah, the way I've frames or its pillars or its elements or questions of the of the heart what? Exploring identity, questions of the head, examining power and history, questions of the hand, and engaging collectively engaging movements and questions of the Helix. Think like DNA, but encouraging possibilities. So that's how I've framed the the different. Elements of ethnic studies. And I mean, to your point, yeah, there's definitely we make more room for that, that sole piece because because school can be alienating for a lot of people because it's not a place where they're going back to your your example of of deficit versus assetbased approaches of giving critique and feedback, a lot of students will tell you. School just reminds me of all the ways where I'm not good enough, right? And then I give it that's like, no, there's nothing wrong with. There's nothing wrong with you. Maybe something happened and it's okay place to unpack that. And if there's not enough, if there's insufficient trust and safety to be able to to share that with people in this space, then we'll make room for you to address that in whatever way is appropriate for you. You know, meeting people where they're at as they are. You know and so like moving forward, I don't it's, I think what's challenging with ethnicities again is how do you take something that comes that that's it's rooted in social movements that's meant to be grassroots and then it's confined to an institution And I think the challenge is like how to do, how to. Harness the soul or the spirit of that work in a way that's sustainable because. Because right now it just entails a lot of additional work which sort of just maintains the the the the same script, right. Of just the do more with less. Yeah. So that's just sort of navigating you know. Yeah. The challenges of. Giving students opportunities to network with local movements, but within the constraints of you know eight period schedule. Yeah, yeah. And I think and with so going back to like I have questions of saying sustainability, not only is it, you know, is that a lot to ask of community partners. You know, but also like for like for teachers, we're not positioned to to work collaboratively again alone on our own in our room and then that if if we wants, if we want teachers to. Transcend that, that arrangement and then what they can have to do that in their own time. Early in the morning, you know, late in the afternoon. Yeah. And that's a lot to ask for, you know, for a class that that is, that's about challenging the status quo. You know, if we're just asking people that again, do more with less, we're just maintaining the status quo. I do it for the kids, do it for the children. Because we believe all children should be loved. I I I say that because not that I don't believe in those those ideas but but when you know an institution harnesses the employees the language of love to to encourage a kind of benign exploitation, you don't know that's that that's not transformative. That's just. Speaker 2 Perpetuation. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. So for me, like, like looking at and you know, next year and beyond, it's just how to grow, how to grow a collective, you know, how to how to get folks together to to dream this game, build that sense of community that you know, that to remind people that they're not alone in this work. Speaker 2 I want to thank you for your time. It's been a blast to be able to have you on as the 1st guest. Speaker 3 Right proof of concept. Speaker 2 Of the podcast. It's really good to be able to hear sort of the inner workings of ethnic studies and what you and Vero and those involved are creating in the space. I love thinking of the classroom or that chunk of time in which y'all are meeting. Has a canvas in which y'all are creating collectively and create an experience that students want to show up to instead of being forced to show up to. Although attendance I'm sure is still a thing. Speaker 3 Yeah yeah. But on the on the other hand students are real about that you know that hey that they'll they'll their feedback to give to us is that we appreciate that this class gives us room to breathe and room to be and. But there are times when, you know, when push comes to shove, this is one of eight classes and and and the other ones are, you know, are high stakes in the sense of they don't comply. They'll follow the rules. They get out of their lane. They get, you know, they'll get they they pay the price. And so yeah, so you know, they'll mention, they'll mention that it's hard to. It's hard to. It's hard to be a Sam and swimming upstream when the current is pushing you in a different direction. Speaker 2 You know, all the more important for y'all to build that connection community within within the class so that you don't feel like you're swimming alone, so you don't feel like you're teaching alone. Also, yeah. Joe, I want to thank you for your time. I think we'll we'll close our time now. But any last words? Speaker 3 Boo shaka laka. This is a great Josh I appreciate you so much. Love you so much. I. Speaker 2 Love you too.