Entertainment or Entertaining the Enemy

Welcome to Dane to Live, a weekly podcast where we discuss theology, culture and what it means to do life together. So let's get going with today's episode. Well, coming to the end of the year again, one of our final podcasts, really great having you guys along. And before we get into the show, just don't want to remind you that first of season there's a time for sharing and if you can start sharing the podcasts, commenting and just letting people know when you see those reels where their producer makes us do funny things, share them so people become more aware of the podcast. I'm a intern, I'm hosting together with Nadine and we have got some great guys in the studio, big guys, but a really big subject. Wow, big personalities, big personalities, as you will hear in the podcast, we have Mike Daufe and Dan Barnard, they don't need much introduction. Welcome guys, always great having you on the show. Absolutely. Now the subject, this is a big one and we want to handle it well and also gently and just look into it and Nadine, tell us more about it. Yeah, so the topic is entertainment or entertaining the enemy. And Ephesians 5 says it's shameful even to speak of what the disobedient do in secret. Yet much of our entertainment, the movies we watch, the songs we listen to, the online games we play, celebrate those very things. Most of us, as believers would agree, it is wrong to watch or listen to content that is sexually explicit, blasphemous or containing a lot of swearing or even violence. But what about things like magic or other elements of spiritual or cult symbolism? Is it just fantasy or is there actually something more sinister that we are opening ourselves up to? How do we as believers navigate what we and our children watch, play and listen to, without falling into legalism but also without compromising holiness? And so the point of this podcast is not to be prescriptive, unless the Bible is prescriptive or certain things, but actually to equip us with the kinds of questions that we should be asking with regard to what we watch, what we listen to and the online games that we play. And so we're really hoping that it will be a podcast that will help us to be more discerning in the entertainment that we engage with. So guys, let's jump in. Maybe I can ask firstly just as a broad theological basis, what does scripted teach us about what we sit before our eyes and minds? Mike? You're trying to avoid this one. So all these some bugs. The Scripture has a lot to say on that because we get to worship the Lord with our bodies, with our thoughts with our minds, with our eyes. You know, I think with our eyes we, we to make, we are into this Scripture in Philippians chapter 2 that speaks about think upon, let me just have a look at the Scripture quickly. Job, that he makes a covenant with these eyes. Job 3, 1, verse 1. Dan's right. So I've got Psalm 101, verse 3, Philippians 4, verse 5, verse 12. So in Philippians 4, verse 8, it says, you know, finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable. If there's any excellence, anything worthy of praise, think about these things. So with our thoughts, clearly what we watch and see that does influence our thinking. So we have to guard our thinking, we have to guard the kinds of ideas that come to us through music, through media, and what, what we watch with movies and see, etc. The eyes of the windows of the soul and the windows of the soul and some, well, yeah, it's not a Scripture, but that principle of, but then there's another Scripture that says to the pure, things are pure. I studied at an art school where we did drawing an academic setting with human figures and bodies, and that was done very scantily dressed. But I knew that it was an academic setting, and to me that there was actually a pure thing because the body was a pure thing, it was made in the image of God, I personally didn't have a problem there with lust at that point at all. And so it depends on the context that we, what we're talking about when we, what we watch, but the heart of it is that whatever we watch it influences us and we have to guard our thinking, guard our minds, guard, Bible says, guard your heart, it's the world's spring of life. And the heart was the center of thinking, actually, that's what the heart is, that center of our, of our very lives. And so we've got to have a watchman over that. Would you say, sorry, that's Scripture Ephesians 5. Would you say that's a personal responsibility of application or is it something very, very specific? Well, different people apply that, as you're saying now, in the art school, someone might cause major problems, they shouldn't be looking at. So do we apply that sort of to the Philippians 4 Scripture? Sorry, Philippians 4 Scripture. Yes, because in the day, they didn't have TVs and social media like we do today. So it would have meant something for them. And so we have to apply it individually, according to your conscience. And that's the difficulty talking with what we're talking about. There's a lot of conscience element, there's a Romans 14 element that what might be fine for one person to listen to or watch might not be fine for another because some of our conscience is a more sensitive and so it won't cause us to be impure and to sin. And so we have to give each other grace and even listening to this, you would have to be willing to consider your brother and how you all talk about more in Corinthians and one Corinthians as well. But at the same time, that's what makes it so difficult. The heart is deceitful above all things, you know, and we might think, no, it's okay for me to watch. Whereas actually, maybe it's just a flesh that is indulging in something that's actually not helpful for us. So again, like so many of these conversations, it is being laid by conscience as informed by scripture, but also community so helpful in helping us to weigh up what we view, what we watch. But Dan, I'm going to jump to you. Is there such a thing as neutral entertainment or does all content carry a world view? Oh boy. Either light or darkness or you always get the hard ones. Oh jeez, man, give it to Mike. You know, 100%, there is neutral entertainment, there is, there is nothing, we've been given imaginations. We, like, there is, I think the extreme unentertainment just to mention from the beginning is, you'll hear this from ever, whichever your watch is view pointers. So for example, if you spend most nights binge watching series, entertainment means something different for you than somebody who watches here and there. And so entertainment can also just be for some, just bad. Yeah, even if it's neutral, if you've been watching it for some people, you just shouldn't do it. But then for others, it's not necessarily the same. And so I think that's the first thing is that entertainment comes from your view. So you could have a viewpoint that says, I don't watch anything secular, I only watch Christian because I don't want to, my mind runs away with it all, it's in a form of escapism and I don't want to waste time with it, then that you can hold to that conviction as well. On the other side of it, there's also no clear line of saying entertainment in any shape or form is evil. And from the pit of hell, and you shall not do it. So there is this, I mean, there is some scriptures in 1 Timothy 4 verse 70 says, don't get caught up with old wives, tales, the anal teases or all these funny myths, have nothing to do with it. So there is cases for both, but I think the most important thing is like, for me, when it comes to entertainment is, what is, is this percentage, is it an entertainment thing? It can be an idle thing, it can be an idolatry thing, it can be an escapism. It can be, because remember, whatever we take in through our sins is it shapes us, it shapes the way we think, shapes how we perceive things to be, it shapes. And for children, it shapes what they perceive to be real or not. And so it is definitely something for me that entertainment should never be mindless. If you are mindlessly being entertained, I think there is a problem, because you can be being influenced, like we've heard with Andrew having given a whole incredible message about Halloween, and how some Christians have just gone on that route because they've done it mindlessly. They haven't intentionally wanted to cause home, they've even wanted to redeem it and make it family-friendly. It's just not. And if you apply the scripture and you apply your mind, you'll see that there is forms of entertainment that are wrong. And so there is pen lines, there is hard lines drawn me, certain entertainment is wrong. And then there is others of which it's more pencil lines where it's based upon your conviction between the Lord, but you need to approach all entertainment regardless of what you watch or what you play or what you do with the sense of, I'm not doing this mindlessly, my conscience is open, is this helpful for me or not helpful for me? What is the message coming from it to be needed? And even, could it refresh me, is it something that I can use because I have time off? And it's part of my recreation. And that's actually fine as well. The Bible does give a space to do that where it speaks about being refreshed on the, you know, the Christian principle of having a day off, which think it's codified in the law. And on that day it was a day out of the ordinary where they could do things. And I think, I know J.R. Packer, the great theologian speaks about, you know, if you look at your time, you know, a seventh of your time could be used for recreational type things where you can switch off from work and switch off from your, your usual responsibilities where you could get, you know, and if watching TV or a series or a movie or listening to something is part of that recreation, in order for you to be more fruitful, then wonderful, then of course what that looks like is part of the discussion. I'm thinking just a little personal testimony, so I'll actually into a secret, but I watch Penelunders. Of the time, just where I'm home in the evening, making food or whatever, and there's nothing wrong with Penelunders. I mean, it's not. If you say so, Nedid. You're not going to watch it. The danceway isn't, you know, nudity or whatever. And just recently, I felt the Lord's side to me. I don't want you to watch Penelunders anymore. And I could argue my way out of it, there's nothing wrong with it besides except for whatever reason that the Lord said to me, and because it's time that's devoted to him, or it's just because my mind was being fooled with just secular stuff that actually, and I think that's the thing. Just being conscious of even when we watch stuff on screens, it's not like, okay, now we're switching off from God. Yeah. It's still do these things that we watch, you know, can we still, if God had to sit next to me, would we watch this together? Would we enjoy this music, this program, this game together, because he is watching all the time? That's true. So let's look into this thing of magic and witchcraft and the cult, because many increasingly movies and games do include these elements of magic, witchcraft in the cult, and even when presented as fantasy. So how should we, as believers, and again, we're not doing hard and fast lines necessarily, but it's about discerning and kinds of questions we should be asking. So how should believe is discerning what is harmless, innocence, creativity, and where does it not actually go into spiritual compromise? What are some of the things that, questions we should be asking? Can I take a step back and just to look at the idea of even the existence of magic and fantasy in a movie or series or book, does that make it wrong? So some Christians are even allergic to the very idea of, you know, magic or something magical, fantastical, imaginative that becomes weird, and I think that's important to know that even in the Bible itself, that there is the existence of imagination and fantasy that got, being made in the image of God means to be able to, in a sense, have a window open that we can move into fantasy to help us understand reality and truth, you know. And I think it's very important, like it's interesting in the Bible, things that we wouldn't always think about, do we sometimes read the Bible for what it is, but the Bible's full of apocalyptic imagery. Even in the Old Testament, like Zechariah 5, there's a vision of a flying scroll. Here's a vision, literally, of a flying scroll, flying through the earth, and of a woman in a basket picked up by two other women with wings, like stalks. And God speaks to him through this imaginative means in order to speak truth, you know, or most of the staff gets turned to snake and go, what the heck is going on there, you know? And so I think the idea of images and fantasy shouldn't make us uncomfortable. I think we should be comfortable with the idea of general fantasy. And God created us with imaginations. Yeah, exactly. And God uses that because what it does, it actually stirs the imagination and helps to communicate truth in a very creative way. And that's okay, you know. And if it's inspiring us into truth, inspiring us to live well, then that for me is a line, if you're asking what that line is. If it inspires me into courage, and valor, and integrity, and honesty, I'm as a very broad principle. Because often when we watch movies and things like that, we are drawn to those particular characteristics, courage, and bravery, and you really get into that movie. So there's something that grabs us and draws us in. But I suppose that's that same thing that draws us in or the drawing in with things that aren't good will draw us in in a similar way, and that's the problem you have. Yeah, so true. I think one of the frameworks to look at when you look at magic and fantasy is to consider, you know, as for example, is it set in, is that clear sense of right and wrong? Is it set in a moral universe where the bad guys are really bad guy and the good guys are really good person and that's clear or are those lines blurred and magic isn't used as a means to manipulate people. That's the problem with like certain modern movies. They set actually in reality and they borrow on real cultic practices. Like actually Harry Potter would be an example. Now there's redeeming parts, possibly a Harry Potter, but there's most of it is very dangerous and unhelpful, because it draws on real-world imagery and real-world practices. It's close to that. It's close to that. That you could actually go and research on your own and find very similar types of practices in the real world on the occult, whereas other fantasy novels, George McDonald, CS Lewis, Tolkien. They're set in a moral universe where there's a clear sense where your heroes don't use magic actually most of them. And they don't use it for personal gain to manipulate other people and they don't get away with things. They're men and women of integrity and honor. So it's easier to determine the magic and the fantasy as opposed to a Harry Potter which is set in a real-world situation. You obviously have set it Hogwarts which then they're scape into this alternative, well, another place in a sense, it's a real-world place, but that would go into that. I mean, he's studying witchcraft, he's studying sorcery, so he's studying how to use magic in order to manipulate and achieve an end, and other types of books that we would recommend would never do that. Right. So how is Lord of the Rings, Winston's different, or the non-ear series by CS Lewis? I think one of the ways would be different is, for example, there's an author, he's very helpful on this, I can't claim all of this, he's in Richard Abanus, and he said this about the difference. He said, one of the easiest ways to know whether fantasy form or book has a real magic in it is to ask a simple question, can much-child find information in a library or bookstore that will enable them to replicate what they're seeing in the form of the book? If you go to the Chronicles of Nine-Year and Lord of the Rings, what you see in story, magic and imagination, it is not real, you can't replicate it, but if you go to something like Harry Potter, you can find real references to astrology, clairvoyance, numerology, alchemy, which is a super dodge, that kind of thing. It always teaches you how to do those things in some ways. Well, yeah, and then again, we're getting into something that we're not saying you have to discern for yourself with your family if you think you can read or watch that. But there's actually a server that said 12% to 12% to 12% children who saw the Harry Potter movies. Actually, we're more interested in witchcraft as a result, and Wikens and occultists often what they do is they would use the popularity of Harry Potter books to often advertise their own material. So, that's quite common. Dan, practical scenario, Harry Potter movie comes out another one. How would you as a parent decide whether you can expose your children to that or not? Easy question. I'll stop doing it. We have standard protocol, we love it as a family, especially when we have leave, we like to watch big epic movies together, and it always starts with dad and common sense media, even willing to pay for the version so that I can understand. And it's spoiler, guys, I often know the end before I watch the movie, because I want to know all the content of the movie, especially if I'm going to watch it with my kids. So we common sense media, everything for us, where it gives, like common sense media, common sense media, it's a website you go online, you can put in any movie title, series, title, and they will tell you the exact number of, if there's any profanity, exact number of times and what words are used, exact number of times of this, anything sexual, violence, it's a very helpful to pair it. Before even considering content, like is this fun or not? And then my wife and I would normally have a conversation, I would say this is what it's about, we recently did this, we went to live and we watched a few movies, and then she would be like, okay, I think they're fun for that, because I normally air on the adventurous superhero type of movies, and then we would watch it with them. So our children aren't allowed to watch something new unless it passes all our filters alone, if there is something that we're unsure of, we either watch it first and then rewatch it with them, or we will watch it the first time together, where we can immediately say, okay, and we've done it many times. What age is your children? 14, 13, 12, and 10. So there's a new movie that's doing the rounds, K-pop, demon, hunters, I haven't read all heard anything about it, until there was an article that appeared on the four 12 website. So with something like that, I'm just using that as an example because it's current. What would be the kinds of things that you would be looking at to know, is this a movie that I want my children to watch on? For us, the titles are dead giveaway, normally sent with things like Lucifer, the devil, demons, witchcraft, Satanism, those are normally the blind indicators for me, so I get very denoried, then. I can say I've watched it purely because the name demon hunter is in the title, so it's K-pop in front of it. Jesus say he will cost our devil, so my children won't be watching that, because the medium, Jesus costs our devils, they won't be watching it. Mike, for you? So we watched, Adrian, I actually watched a pot of K-pop demon hunters, a potlet, let's see, it's a cartoon, we watched the first hour, then we didn't get to watch the rest of it. But those kinds of movies, and the way that we would approach it, what was your question, and how would we approach it? Yeah, what are the kinds of questions you would be, what are the kinds of things that you would be looking at to know? Yeah, so again, I would personally be looking for, is there a clear sense where good is good and evil is evil? The problem with the heroine in K-pop demon hunters with this girl band is the one is pot demon actually, and she discovers, and she's meant to be kind of fighting against the demons, and it was helpful to see it because now she's got this wrestle, and part of it is what I've heard, I wouldn't watch the end of it, but even learning to embrace her dark side of it, yeah, and then to learn how to use that in a sense, and it's so typical of our age where you've got heroes that are conflicted, but they're conflicted in the sense that they give into their conflict, they give into the flawed side of their nature, and that's the interesting thing with Lord of the Rings is Lord of the Rings with Bulbo and Frodo, they have the ring, and they travel, but their desire is to initially, they've got this conflict of wanting to use the ring for personal gain, like some of the villains are, the villains want the ring so that they can manipulate the power to use it for ruling, but then the whole beauty of Lord of the Rings is how Bulbo and Frodo resist the power of the ring, and set out to, or especially with Frodo, right, he sets out to destroy the ring, and so the rings this picture of, of this power that one has that you can manipulate, we in a sense are surrounded as well by, we have the power of the Lord, but even then, when it comes to occultic magic and stuff, we never ever use it, we resist it as opposed to embracing it, K-pop demon hunters, she embraces something of her doxide, Frodo never does that, he resists it, he trusts to destroy it, because he knows it's going to destroy his character, it's going to corrupt him, and Harry Potter, actually, as well, he ends up using power in order to, and he marises his power through magic, through the knowledge of spells, to fight Voldemort, so mostly with Tolkien, definitely with Tolkien, and others, heroes resist the use of illegitimate power, and Harry Potter, of course, he sorts it out and he's admired for it, he's actually a bad character, he lies, deals, gets away with quite a lot, and so he's definitely not a type of crust for me. So also, seriously, one of the things we consider is what conclusions are our children coming to about watching this, it's kind of a question that we're asking ourselves as we consider, what can we watch with our kids, what can we, especially with our children, what type of conclusions are they coming to about watching this, and we have had at times, we've had to undo some things we realize, ah, that movie influenced them in such a bad way, because the conclusion that came to us, it's okay to lie as long as it's to protect something, like, no, that's wrong, but we watch that movie and you're like, okay, yeah, that's, and so those are important questions, what conclusions are my children going to come to as they watch these things? So as a parent, you're going to be really thoughtful in the whole process, even sometimes just imagination, especially with animation, movies where there's no magic involved, I'm wondering what conclusions are my girls, or boy, coming to, so it doesn't lead you into truth and into political values that are helpful. When our kids were young, we refused to let them watch Disney Channel, actually initially we did, we found that normal program is like Hannah Montana and others, a lot of those Disney sitcoms, it's broken families with the heroine being the single girl or the guy who are very disrespectful to parents, it's all about the reassessions, it's not a massive LGBT gender being driven through Disney, we most of the characters actually have a struggle with the sexuality or the gender. But even though, this is not a new panel, even the ones that weren't were, they just simply picked up rebellion, and it's like we don't want our kids modeling in it, you will not watch that. We didn't allow our children to watch Alice in Wonderland, because she is always so naughty and disobedient and it encouraged disobedience. I mean, it was a big call we had to make, because everyone thought Alice in Wonderland was great, but when we saw the influence or her disobedience, I think that's, it's a generational thing, you always find something within that generation that does precisely this. All what you do is you, if they are desperate to watch it and their friends are watching it, you have to decide as a parent, do you watch it with them, if it's controversial, but then you use it as a teaching opportunity, and that's what Eddie and I did with certain movies growing up. Didn't you recently also mention the Barbie movie? Yes. Yeah, the Ken and Barbie movie were actually, it's quite a, I mean, the cultural message coming through is about male toxists. Toxicity. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And obviously they're pushing the male down. The blurring of roles. So I think you mentioned that, that was a movie for instance, that you, you've watched with, we, I intentionally bought the movie and I've showed it to all my students, all the Leap students over the last years. I've showed it with our, with our family, we watched it together. It was like, this is a cultural phenomenon. And it is being talked about, we need to watch it together to know how to deserve it. Use it as a teaching tool. Exactly. And so we taught in that on the role of men and women, is it blurry? How does God feel about the role of men and the role of women? What is the world saying? And then, and so that's the way we've tennised certain books as well. Our kids would read, sometimes 80 would read them first, if my daughter, my one daughter was a big reader. And so, with, with certain books, we would allow others out. I think something we have to be aware is that, entertainment is not just entertainment. We live in a world that wants to shape us first. Here's an agenda. My children, so, my first God is that they were, me and my children, the world wants to form our thinking through this. And that's your starting point. And then to say, what is being formed in my children through this? And so there is going, and I mean, so for some, it's just we don't have a TV. We do. But for some, they just don't do it at all. And I can understand that. And then I think also Mike, with you, there is this element of we will do this together and navigate and learn to teach. But it's not just mindlessly. Mom and dad want to sit and have some time out. So kids, you go watch a movie. Well, dad, what can we watch? Or they just put on whatever they want. We were talking before the show, even about music. You know, and Taylor Swift's songs. I've heard so many kids or teens in church, even, you know, singing the tunes in World of Enders. Do we know the lyrics? Do we know what? I mean, we went through the catchy tunes, but wow, we went through the whole slip of setting up a YouTube music account so that we could have a shared account with me, Sam, and the kids so that we can vet music that they listen to my teenagers and preteens. And so music is as popular as TV shows. And I want to know that what they're listening to is okay. We have to always, I mean, the amount of my oldest love is like folk music. And the amount of folk music that is about adultery is ridiculous. It's always about adultery. It's always about that. She loved me. She left me. He left me and pop music. It's, it's, it's for me love music. And we just, we don't like it. We just don't want to sing in that. We just don't want that. I think the not ignorant of the enemy schemes. And that's the reality. The schemes sometimes come through catchy tunes and the latest movie that everyone's talking about and everyone wants to watch, but the enemy's got an agenda. You think of Ephesians 5 that sometimes quoted in verse 12. It is shameful to even speak of the things that do in secret a verse 11 techno part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but it's instead expose them. So some Christians would then be what Dan mentioned, would, you know, we can be anti-culture, where we wouldn't have a TV in the home. And for some, that is absolutely right to cut out any influence of darkness or the world. And then others would just allow any influence right kids to watch anything. But and that's the tricky thing for us, whether you're as a parent or as a person without kids just navigating it yourself, is we are in the world. And so we have to discern in that rather than for me having, because at some point if you protect your kids from that without talking through with them or slowly allowing them to be aware of these things, then they're going to get a shock at some point. They're going to friends homes that they go to. We can't protect them forever. We are in the world, but how much of the world is in us? And that's the question. I want to move it slightly. We've spoken a lot about I'm content for children, but actually when it comes to adults, we can think we mature, we adults now. So maybe the margin is larger, but and there are some pencil lines like we said, but Dan, are there some hard lines also for you where you've just said certain kind of content is out for me? Yeah. So I think just to start is that entertainment isn't inherently simple. You've covered there's three things for me that we have to be careful of. It mustn't become obsessive and it mustn't become idolatry. Like you can't, it can't be that you can't put it down, I can't wait to get out of here so I can go and do XYZ. And it can't lead to moral compromise. And I think those are, but even before we get more specific, those are the first things, regardless of content. That's the first things that we have to just be aware of. So for me, it would be obsession, idolatry or moral compromise. Like are these things affecting? And that's just regardless of what content is coming in. And then I think it's very clear for me around things like horror, themed, Halloween themed demons, devils, witchcraft, satanism, horror movies, that whole excessive violence and go like that stuff for me, there is hard lines. This stuff opens you, the fruit is dangerous, the imagination, the nightmares, the terrors, I don't think there is a way that that can be redeemed at all. And I think that that's one of the hard lines as you have to. We've often seen that these things impact believers, they're conscience. So often I've had to pray for people for deliverance when they've exposed themselves actually to horror movies because that was the open door for the enemy, fear, anxiety, and so I think there are some lines where we could all sit in a room and say guys with a clear conscience, we can say we shouldn't be watching movies about this, horror movies, and these type of theme things, they're just that good. In our thoughts more, say sexually explicit movies, because some people will say, but I'll just close my eyes for those scenes, but why don't you get that first image? It's going on. Or I think for me sometimes the problem isn't even the scenes, but the joking almost it's and it's like a thread that's just throughout the movie, the course joking. Yeah, you know, there's a part of the earnestness in the Lord's Prayer. That's just like Lord lead us not into temptation. That I think like, is that the battle that you have? I know me. I don't want to put myself in a position of temptation. I want to avoid every appearance of evil. So when it comes to sexual content or nudity, I have zero desire to be anywhere near it. I don't want to have to skip one scene. That's why I come in since media. I will not watch any movie or series or show that has anything above. It's like, I think the thing is PG 12, where they will literally say this is because I don't want any exposure to that thing. That thing wants to kill people. It wants to run from it. I want to jose if that. I want to leave my coat there and run. And so for me again, that's one of those lines. It's a stuck man. You can't as a male. I don't think there is one believer that can sit and watch sexual content with nudity and be like, oh, this is fine. It's not affecting me. How about swearing and blasphemy? Well, Greterta's violence. We talked about violence earlier. I think violence for the sake of violence, your movies, that involve that we talked about earlier with some of the Keanu Reeves, new ones, John Wick. It's just the enjoyment of violence for the sake of it. Thinking of 300, what was the sequel? I haven't seen it. It's almost the violence is almost done so beautifully, so artistically. The scenes are in a way, almost it draws you in just the way that it's so beautifully done, but it's still extremely violent. It's the difference in that in a war movie where war movie also has violence, but the point of the movie is violence for the sake of honor and courage. There's a point that you left with the horror of war and the horror of evils. Not everyone can watch that stuff, but it's not glorifying violence for the sake of it, although some modern Hollywood stuff seems to also make it into an art and make it almost beautiful in a way. It is problematic. Again, here is difficult because it is a matter of conscience. There are some people that legitimately feel like they don't have a problem watching it, and they will still not sin against God by doing so. We each have a weakness in our area of weakness in that. It's a difficult one to say, "Here's a list of what you can, we don't want to do that." There are people that affect you differently. Some might not be watching a war movie, but the special effects just seem and some of them become so bad that it does reflect the reality, and they try to make it in the past they didn't, but still it impacts you. The challenge is sometimes it doesn't affect us in the moment, but it actually opens a door. Well, that's what happens with PTSD. You're in violent situations. It comes back to bite you. Yeah, we are desensitised today than 50 years ago. We definitely are. The bar is lower with what we can handle as Christians, than a people those years ago, for sure. We don't have a lot of time left, but I think something that is becoming increasingly, or for a lot of our listeners, maybe it's not movies or the music that they listen to, but it's gaming, online gaming, and that's maybe a whole topic in itself. I do just want to touch on it. One of our listeners, actually, this topic comes from a suggestion from one of our listeners, and he mentioned, for instance, dungeons and dragons, and I know I've never watched it, but I know it's long been controversial on the Christians, because it blends this storytelling imagination, game mechanics, with actually spiritual and occult symbolism. So how are we to, even in the gaming context, think about these things, which is some of the same principles that we've talked about, apply to, or are they different things that we need to be particularly mindful of? So I think I'm the professional in this out of the group. I think I'm the most likely to game in this group than the rest of you. And I think there is, again, there's basics. That's why I would say that the obsession and the idolatry part of gaming is, that's always been the problem with guys, especially with online gaming, and I'm specifically referring to video gaming, not tabletop gaming, but there's the obsessive nature of always being online, always playing, always doing this, and I think those things to be aware of, and the main things for me, again, touching it quickly, would be how accountable are we in that thing? Is it a problem? Are you able to not game? Are you able to put it aside and just leave it? Does it cost family time? Does it cost other things? That's your first joystick before content. I think content, it's the same approach to movies and series. How is this, is this a cult themed? Is this, is this, you know, awkward, I'm going to lose friends over this, but is this, if it's, if the name of the game is the devil Diablo, you know, maybe you shouldn't be playing it, maybe you shouldn't be, it's super obvious. Is that an actual game? Yeah, it's probably, what you're referring to in Dungeons & Dragons. I think it's probably the latest Diablo in the series. Again, in Path of Exile, etc. I'm not going to say you can't play these things, I'm saying there, they have an addictive nature to the side of them, cell phone gaming, is it's own piece that you would actually have to talk about if you want to compare it, because guys say, it's so bad you sit an online game or not, but then they sit candy crushing in their bedroom, solidarity for 10 hours at a time. And so it again, you have to measure, press royale, press royale, shut up all the students up there. I mean something, or something that we haven't touched on is even the influence of anime. Exactly. And because often, even those things have, I know, the Japanese, but it's actually spiritual, Eastern religion, roots, and people will say, no, it's just innocent, but similar to, for instance, and Mike, you've done a video on yoga, and we can say, no, we're just doing stretches, but actually we are opening ourselves up. And so again, we're not drawing hard and fast lines on these things, but we're saying, be away, be away. I'll say, let's do a podcast on gaming, that'll be fun. I was just thinking that it'll be a great podcast. It'll probably be the biggest fastest-growing podcast. But the principles you outlined for watching a movie, is it idolatrous? Is it the three? You can apply that to gaming as well. Yeah, so again, I think that with with these things, it's the same on content. Again, is how open are you to this, to be getting feedback on these areas? It's always a really touchy spot if someone says, hey, you shouldn't watch that, you shouldn't, you shouldn't fly off the handle. Then there's a problem there. And I maybe wanted to have such this point across all entertainment streams, is that this should not be a dividing point in the church. This should not be something in terms of our love for one another. And so we've spoken a lot about personal conviction and people being able to decide, but what it's not supposed to do is we're supposed to, oh, did you hear this person is approaching it? They watched this movie. That's where this topic gets really dangerous, is that I grew up in the time where if you watch it, movies, you were going to hell. And if you didn't, you weren't. And then there were always those parents that landed differently. And it caused such division between believers even, of like, oh, they let them do this. And so I think this, my time, it was the teenage mutant ninja turtle, he man, and master of the universe. And I think as a parent, I would go for that approach of unearth, joshir, and an earth out of context, but it's kind of as for me in Mahas, the boundary that I've given, this is how we are going to serve the Lord. And that's, but it doesn't mean it's an off-limits conversation, but it's about how we have those conversations. Yeah, Mike, last question. What does it look like to live in the world, but not be of the world when it comes to screens, stories, contracts? I think it means that when I'm on a screen, is Jesus the Lord in that time as well? Is Jesus, is his presence? Is his way of thinking, of truth also in that part of my life that I'm not just segregating that to prayer and, you know, my quiet times, but actually my discipleship before Jesus also includes my screen time and includes my gaming and includes my what I listen to. And if Jesus is Lord over that as well, then that's a good principle to do. Then from there I can probably navigate that space. If it's rule-based, then there's always new rules that we have to put in, but if it's grace-based from the inside art, probably that's the best way to go. And so Christ will need to lead us very carefully through this. Thanks, guys. That has been a such a great conversation. And I do think there's definitely room for follow-up conversations on gaming and some others, but some great principles laid down that can help everybody to work out their own conscience before the Lord on these issues. So thanks so much. That's it then for this edition of The Dying to Live podcast. tune in again every week at www.joshgen.co.z/DyingToLive. We're also on Apple Podcasts Google Play, tune in radio, Spotify, iHeartRadio and many other podcast sites. So wherever you listening to this podcast, please subscribe, leave comments and click on the like button. Until next time, then from the team, it's goodbye and God bless.