England’s World Cup thinking and the rotation gamble

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This week on the interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera, with their childhoods turned into content. There's a new law in California that gives influencers the right to be forgotten, and it could impact adults too. And an attack on Russian data centers started a rumor that all the evil disinformation bots had been deleted from the internet, but the truth might actually be a lot scarier. For our take, join me, just Maddox. And me, Thomas Germain, for the interface. Listen on BBC.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. Five lives throughout the union weekly. Hugo Ashi East Midlands Darby Biff. Can you ever remember a scuffle quite like that one on the weekend? That wasn't a scuffle, was it? That wasn't a scuffle. Have you ever seen anything quite like it, Ashi? You've never been involved in an East Midlands Darby Biff of you. Well, my eyebrows might say differently. Disagree. A scar in each. Besides a 12-stitch, you might say differently, but that was very pleasant. It was a bit, it was because it was half-time when there was a bit of a nightmare. You could, the refters couldn't. I mean, he was almost like a cartoon. The ref blowing, he's whistled in the background. Nothing was happening. He was just blowing it as hard as he could. What's taking him on? Ashi, I'll never forget. After your incident of Manu, we went into England camp the next day. And I remember being sat at the table at lunch with you. And a few lads were like, "Ashi, he's always taking your head off." We were like laughing like, "What the heck's got into him?" Anyone that knows Manu, knows he's such a nice, meat character off the pitch. But he's a different animal on it, right? 10 minutes later, Manu walks in. And it's just that it was like, "Drum, if you thought there might be a bit of aggro on the playground." And we were just working for that. And Ashi just goes, "Oh, Manu, what was that all about?" But that's the thing. We were recording Sunday night. And I think 13, 13 of the Northampton and Leicester players are going to be in camp as we speak. Because the England squad is out. We're going to go through that. Going to go through the headlines for the England squad. Going to go through what was a drama filled if a little more attritional Darby weekend. Red Rose is loose again. Loads on that. And more with Ugamona, Chris Ashland, Chris Jones. This is Robbie New Weekly. Rugby Union Weekly from BBC Sport and BBC Radio 5 Live. Do you remember that, Ashi? Do you remember that lunch? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do. Time moves on right, doesn't it? So when that happened, the generation before we're going, "But that was nothing." You should have seen our day. So no, we're a further down the line, aren't we? The lads were at, isn't it? That is as much as we are going to see. Or get out for the streets. For the streets, isn't it? Yeah, because we know punches, there's none of that. But going up the tunnel half-time and pulling his socks off and chest and going nuts, that's the extent of it, isn't it? Without sanction. You can push yourself. You can maybe lob someone to the floor. I mean, last year there was a bit of a scuffle. Someone launched a pint, didn't they? From the stats onto the players. But yeah, the game has sanitised that part with very good reason. But hey, like you just mentioned there, Ashie, I'm slightly different generation. So had that board over and we saw a few punches. I'm not condoning it, but I wouldn't have been upset. But what about to say about that? No, I mean, it's funny how, as Ashie says, in 20, whatever it was, what year was it? 20, 30, 10? 10, 10, 10, a few years earlier. But how the old ABC club would have gone, it's funny how tight, yeah, it's good. It's interesting, you may know. There's a video, Julian White, having to go at Manu's punching techniques, and it was useless. In my day, yeah. With a noctis teeth, though, my day. So yeah, it just moves on. But I think what also struck me with it was Pollock and the situation that he finds himself in. Where does he sit? Because he came, he was up against who is less than one of Leicester's enforcers right now against Chessum. And I just don't know where he sits in this kind of order, because he isn't an enforcer. That's not his game style, is it? That's not him, he's a backroer. That his scores try some distance, and he's fast. And he's been, like, Ashie, the most talked about playing up to now. But yesterday just highlighted, there's a difference in the backroer style, and what you stand for as a team. And I don't know, it just highlighted to me yesterday, that that's not Northampton's game plan. Is it being that kind of team? But do you think he needs to find a way to impart his game when conditions are like that? And when a game of rugby is like that? There is that part, but there's also the personality type. If that's not your personality, that's not the kind of player that you are, then why find yourself in these situations? Because I don't think that is the player that he is. And I don't think that's what he needs to be about. He's being finding himself in these wind up middle of the nickel city. He just doesn't need to be about that. Does he's got all the bigger parts, better parts to his game than he needs to be showing off, rather than that bit, I think? I agree, because the same thing happened to him at my childhood road last year. They went after him and he turned into his pantomind villain. And that happened again on Saturday. He got whipped off the pitch after 52 minutes. British Lion in a darbit shouldn't happen. But I know when Pollock's at his best, the semi-final gets lester at Franklin's Gardens, his man-of-match, unplayable. The pre-final, like two weeks later, the best player on the pitch. When he's strictly business, and just all of his attention is on rugby, mate, he's one of the best about, we love it. But you're right, you can get drawn into that type of fisty cuffs, which by the way, I've already said it, I love it. And why I love it is because, for the very reason, maybe this our segway to talk about it is, I love speaking to Freddie Stewart afterwards, talking about representing our people, and bringing them down to our gaff and having it. And he said he loved the weather, and it was gritting. It was gnarly. And you've got loads of internationals having it, because they love club rugby. They love representing their club. The deal between rugby and football, and everyone's got their struggles. I'm not saying our sport is better. But back in the good old days of the rivalries between Man United and Arsenal, when they went to the England squad, they couldn't let it lie. But these law, who are now holed up at Pennyhill Park, will just be cracking on. They'll be doing tick-tock dances tonight, and they'll be sound. So I love the fact that the ferocity, the passion, the pride, what it means to play for your club is at fever pitch. But the minute you go into England camp, let's just get on with it, crack on. And that's the beauty of it. Yeah, I think it was one of those weekends, wasn't it? And not every game was a thriller. And it was a bit of a slog at Leicester. But it was an example that rugby can be compelling and captivating without loads of tries. They were kind of, I've totted up 21 tries across the five games. There were 18 tries in the Northampton Bath Game alone two weeks ago. But, and we'll get on to the Gloucester game, and we'll talk more about the Leicester game, but although they were both absolute terrific occasions, and kind of what the league is all about. Let's talk England squad, though, because it is the news that's just dropped. Actually, you're kind of going to be reacting to it live, because we're putting just a matter of hours after it's come out. Just laid it back from the stoop, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's a shift. You're weakened. You can't leave the stoop. The telly get you following Christian Wade around everywhere. So that's a gif and you're going to be there on a Friday. And then you were a Leicester, and then you did Arlequins. My hips and pieces. My hips and pieces. Why is your hip and pieces? Travel driving, yeah. A driver can't have a quiet. No, it is not with you. It's a funny, there's no way of getting from Newcastle to Leicester for a Saturday morning. There's no way. I mean, we have very small country, and there's no way of getting from Newcastle to Leicester. And there's something on it. No, not a weekend. No, shoot it down, shoot it down. Lot of miles done. You've just got back from Quinn's. So few headlines. Joe March and in first time since the World Cup. So first time in three years for March, will Joseph? He is anyone that sort of solitary cap on the Aussie Tour in 2022? What a season. He's having what a season. Gloucester having on the kind of returner's piece, no courtly laws. Charna Cunningham South is injured. Bernard Jansi van Rensberg is injured. They're not in Caputu, Pilote, the third Hooker, Archimook, Parland, the third nine. I think those are the main headlines, unless you've got anything else to do? No, they are the main headlines. I agree. I think a couple of things just to add on. Tour Pilote. We know how talented he is. He's brilliant. But Nathan Jiboulo at sale. Two mother-match performances. He's likely hard-done by. But you know, I'm sure Steve had a pretty rough idea of what it's going to be like a month ago. And I think that's fine and that's fair. But I do think it means that there is going to be vice to all certain other players. Two Pilots who they just want him in the squad. scored because he's a top player, but when 50% of the matches you've played this year, you've been the best player on the pitch. You'd want to. So I'd understand as to why he might be frustrated. Cade and Merle, tough to see him there. I'm also wondering what George Hending needs to do just as something. Could we just have a look at him? Just have a look at him. You felt that actually haven't you? You've got two, you've got two former England wingers here, both like Hending, want Hending in. A lot of people agree with you, but there's something they're not seeing. It's not with Hending. A part of the problem right now is Steve is he feels is on the pressure to get results. So it's too late to make big changes. We are less than the less than a year away into the World Cup. It's too late to make changes. If we look at this training squad, it's not picked on form. Is it you go through the squad? It's not on form. It's a squad to get to the World Cup, isn't it? I think that's such a valid point. It's a great point you make there because the only other person I would put into it if we're talking about form is Wes Fitzharden paid the way that kid is played. The way Bristol are played. But we'll just have to form pit, guys. Come on. No, the vast majority is not though. It's not. You're right. Okay. We could go through this whole thing. But he can't look at four rounds of preem action and a Champions Cup round. And some of those preem rounds, we've seen crazy scorelines that aren't going to be replicated in November and a style of play that you probably won't get on a November day at Twickenham. So he's got to be careful not to be too swayed from week to week, isn't he? I get that. The reality is, I think the players we're discussing might not be starters, but the worth of look at, like, Hendy needs to have a look. In my opinion, I think he's been that good for that long and he's shown the X-Factor he's got. We know who our wingers are going to be. I could say the back three. The back three will be fairbank or be Tommy Freeman, be Manifesto, so Hendy comes into the mix of a score. So who should midfield, if the Tommy Freeman at 13 experiment has been shelved/parked, and that sounds a back, that back three makes total sense, but who's, who's sent to them? Well, I've got some back. Yeah. Well, Sebastian's on the rehab list. Yeah, this, I mean, sorry, is this, is this a question about who's playing if there was a match next week? Both, both, who's both who's playing because there is a match next week as a matter of a match two weeks today. Two weeks. And who, who you would have and who, who, who's, from what, from those 36 with who's been picked and who's injured and who's been left out and where you see Tommy Freeman playing. I'm just, I was just thinking to myself, what's, is that, who are the centres if, if, if, is Bianci Van Rensberg's injured and set up this until the four years? I know I was there for 14 years, but if, if, if Sebastian's on the rehab list, and maybe he's only on a rehab for a couple of days, and he'll be ready to go for us. Yeah, no, I think he's fine for my understanding. Yeah, I think, I think that might be a rehab as any can't train Monday, Tuesday. They're only in Tuesday night. So as Hugo says, Sebastian is the incumbent at 12. Then is that Henry Slade 13, and those are your centres? I don't think there's anything clear in, in that department whatsoever. We could make 12 different combinations alone with just this little group of players, I reckon. Because Bianci Van Rensberg being injured as a blow, if you're, if you're trying to far-strat this guy in at the earliest possible opportunity when he's eligible, and then he's not involved because he's injured, that's a whole load of test matches and a load of time in camp that, that you're missing out with time ticking. And no, Marjorie Moe's back in as well. It's something that I would struggle to answer right now, which is madness, really, isn't it? It is madness. Marjorie being back in is, I know Steve likes him, and he was successful before he went off to France, so him being back. And this is what I mean by the not, this to me is not a form pick squad, because I look at the bulk of the teams that are in here, and the teams aren't doing very well. They've not, they've not shown themselves very well over the past, however, whatever they've had in the past four, five rounds. Those players have not shown the best of themselves, so that's why I'm saying it just doesn't look like it's a form pick squad, it's just based on what he's done, what he's had before and the experience and the relationship he's got with the players, and that's why Marjorie is back in there. Can understand it, he's made his way back. I think for me, the way I see it is marching and Will Joseph, they're a bit of a shoot up, because they kind of serve very similar purpose for England. They can play brilliantly well at 13, but also do a job on the wing. When you look at a World Cup squad and you start looking at benches and utility, I see that as a real key shoot up between the two of them. Will Joseph's been excellent. He has been excellent, but you're right, Ashley, we'll look at every nation squad and they'll be a different backdrop towards those squads coming into this autumn. Ashley, hit the nail on the head. There's pressure into this, so I'd love to see teams and decisions that are a bold, but it's easy saying that when you've just got to be accountable for what you sound a podcast and your job's not on the line and you're trying to get a selection right ahead of a World Cup. So you can understand why there might be hesitation not to, because they'll be low to fans that watch the Gallagher Premier League against Australia. Will Joseph and Sub-Atkinson, there's your ready-made 12 and 13, they've just spent six weeks together. There you are, roll them out. Will Joseph's in the form of his life, but I'd be very surprised if that was to happen. Do you think Steve, back to your point, Jonesy, about minutes and stuff? And what you said about what he's seen in the Prem and so many tries, and that's not a transfer filter of the international rugby. Do you think he's actually looking at some of these squad players and just looking at minutes and what they've got under the belt and where they're at, and if he's happy with the level of rugby, they've got under them to get them through to test match. I don't want to say it's irrelevant, but some of what he's watched is probably gone. There's nothing I can do with that. I just, I know that certain player is good at international rugby. He's played 80, 120 minutes of good level rugby. I want him in the camp. He's going to be starting in two weeks. He depends on the individual, isn't it? Because someone like George Martin, you kind of feel that George doesn't have to have 10 games of rugby under his belt. There's a bit like, can we get him to the start line, fit, firing, which is a risk, there was a risk, isn't it? Yeah, probably because, but that's, but he's a player, Martin, who is never going to play 30 games of rugby in a season. Just the way he plays the game, the toll on his body with the injuries he's had already in his career. He's someone who they'll be going, right, we will do all we can to get him to the start line before the autumn, to the start line before the season and to the start line of the World Cup. I just don't, I just, I'd be really surprised to, because if that man is fit, then he doesn't start the game against Australia. I have loaded rugby. I hear what you're saying. And I think pre this start of the season, I'm like all in on that sentiment, but he's also playing in position that is so densely populated with top players. And I mean, without getting into the game, but just to make a note on it, I watched George Martin play Sunday against Harley Quinn's. I didn't really notice him, mate. He's a big man. He's a big, big man in what was going to be a physical test, mate, they set peace, what happened in the scrum, brilliant dynamite. But if I'm not really noticing, George Martin, who's partnered with the England captain, and I noticed Marrow, gosh, he was everywhere today, didn't really know George Martin. So I look at him versus maybe something like an Alex Coles on him, play very different role in terms of what they, what they bring to a game. And this is all based upon the notion that Ollie Chessons likely to play at six. Then yes, you have to manage George Martin, but you need to get this balance of managing him, making sure he's fit, fresh and rare and but in the limited minutes, he plays, they've got to be top quality because there's loads of other quality playing really, really well every single week. But this is what I'm saying about his none of form squad. Finn Baxter, he's had 40 minutes. Ollie Chesson, he's had two games. Luke Cohen Dickie, two games, Ben Curry, not even a game, Tom Curry, one, two games, Jamie George, one or two games, George Martin, a couple of games, Apoco for George, not many games, Will Stewart, not many games, George Furbank, a couple of games, Marcus Smith, not many games. It's just not many lads that have played many games, really. Well, I think that's, that's, that's, goes back to the point, both of you made earlier on in the chat about trust and about time ticking and you know, that's where you look at the third nine, so that the three nines for ages have been Mitchell, JVP and Ben Spencer. And Spencer's not in an archipelago and is in an archipelago and may well have gone on the tour, probably would have gone on the tour, had he not picked up that leg injury and it was right at the end of the season, wasn't it in the, in the preem final. So archipelago coming as a third nine is fresh and kept it to a blotty coming because the hook is for ages, ages. It's pretty much since the last World Cup have been Jamie George Luke how I'm dicking in Theodan. But the question for me is, Aarajima Poland and Keppie Tuberlotti going to get time on the pitch this nation's championship. You're shaking your head, do you go suggesting not? And I think if you're picking Nines for Australia, I think JVP starts with Mitchell on the Benz, because if we move on to the action from the weekend, though JVP out kicked Mitchell quite significantly at Welford Road, he seems to handle the win way better in that second half, Mitchell couldn't nail his box kicks in the first, and the tactical battle was all lester. So I think JVP, given where he was in the summer as well, starts with Mitchell on the bench. So it could be the Aarajima Poland gets a bit of time against Japan. But then are these, are the likes of him at Poland and Tuberlotti getting enough minutes to then be realistic World Cup. I'm not talking about getting in the 32, 31-32 at the World Cup, we're talking about actually making a big impression and having a proper impact on that World Cup. I just can't see Steve making loads of changes against Japan, I just can't. In the same way, I thought he was going to make loads of changes against Fiji, and he went full noise. Full noise. Play South Africa came back, put all the big guns out, went as close to a full team as possible, did a job, then went to Argentina, did a job. There's such limited game time, and this is where it becomes even more of a pressure cooker to perform. So today, of all of the tickets that are up for sale at the Ireland Stadium this autumn, Japan's probably the least desirable one out of all of them. And in fairness, I think that will be a sellout, and the fans will want to see all the big guns playing. But there's also no guarantee that England be Australia, to not have made. So yeah, I just don't think at this point a year before the World Cup, and this is where I contradict myself, I don't think Steve's just going to be handing out caps, willing nearly. But then that goes back to what I actually said, there's a lot of guys there with not a load of per minute, so he's picking, because he's not going to go off two or three rounds of action in some games that were incredibly high scoring, and yes, there are more points against us probably than they have been, but still we're talking about apples and pears in terms of playing styles at times. Another thing to throw in the mix here is he hasn't got much time, they've only got two days here, a day or two, which he'd normally have a full week with them to figure out selection. Four week ahead of the test week. Exactly. Yeah, just to clear that up, this is a new thing that came in last year, and it's to do with a week that they're giving back to the the premer, giving them around World Cup prep, so that's my understanding. But yeah, it's a really, really good point, actually, normally they'd be cocooning camp from this Sunday through to the game. Two whole weeks, they'll probably get abroad, wouldn't they? Now they're spending two days, choose their night back to their clubs. There's a full round of prems where they're all available for their clubs the week before. That has happened last year, but previously that was unheard of. But this is why Steve has more control and more say on minutes and what to do with players, and it's probably why we saw Finbacks to come off at 40 minutes, and we've seen a couple of lads pulled in different games because Steve's had a bit more say in what he thinks or what he would like to see from that player to in order to frame to be in the best position for next week. It's a negative, but he's also got control and other aspects. What's fair? Do you mean all the clubs have signed up to it? I think there was a conversation where I'm Manifesto or Boso, and his availability this weekend, Rod Baxter seemed hopeful that Mani would get some minutes against Harlequin this weekend, then he goes off with England for the next month. So England will have a say there in constant conversations of all the Gallagher Prem clubs, the chat and to the medical staff, and they can monitor all those plays. You'll spot on with Finbacks there. That was smart management just for 40 minutes. The guy's not played any Rod before the best part of the year. So it's good that there is alignment between club and country. We're interested in whether Foe Bosa does get fit for Australia though, because he's still on that rehab list and that they can just really contue with just getting him in a run. Couldn't they for England? This week on the interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhood started to content. And an attack on Russian data centers started a rumor that all the evil disinformation bots had been deleted from the internet. But the truth might actually be a lot scarier. For our take, join me, Jess Maddox. For me, Thomas Germain for the interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. We don't want to start on the weekend because it's low to get out, if we go back to the Midlands or stuff. Could we start at the Stu virtually? Sure. I've just been thinking about it a lot, and like Ashley, you covered the game and a lot of the conversation at the end of the game was in a round rotation, and this is the first year, I think, we're just seeing it on such a broad scale. But when does rotation turn into rust? So I looked at that team, my prediction, I thought Saris would win today, I had to make a prediction on Thursday, my prediction to Paul this weekend. I looked at their team, and I thought, wow, that front five, that is tasty, their back row, I like their nine and ten, I thought they'd have a decent game plan. Rotation's just not working at Sarisense, it's not working at all, because they've done quite a good job of making a lot of good players look poor, because there's such a lack of cohesion and connectivity in the opening part of the season. And hey, I mean, the guys are in charge of Sarisense, their rugby IQ and their understanding of how to get through season is clearly far superior, I've never had to do it before. But when it's only ten teams, it's a sprint, and if you start poorly, you're ready chasing. So a question for you, so I've been doing some numbers, did a bit of research earlier. Bath and Sarisense have made the most amount of changes in the four match day squads we've seen, and what I'm considering, my definition of a change, that count on a player is new to the 23 or moves from starting to bench or bench to starting. Does that seem fair as a definition? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. Bath have made 45 changes, 45 changes in four rounds of dialogue at Prem, and Saris 36, it's not, Jens, it's not working. It's crazy. I remember when the teams came out before the Northampton Bath game, I was like, this is early in the season to be rotating, especially when you think that the season started late, really late in September, and then the league shutting down in November, I'm not saying you need to just be playing guys 80 minutes, six times in a row, but there aren't that many games before November. No, but we questioned it when you and Van Grand did it before, but it kind of didn't matter because they kept winning, but he's always had this policy of, we've got a plan, we've got a rotation, we're sticking with it, this is how we work through it, which is fine when you win. It's only highlighted more so when you start to lose, and then everybody's fans and everyone are going, why we're not playing our best players, but with only five rounds in this block, you would have thought it was enough for the lads to get through. I get if you've been on tour within the summer, no, I think it's a bit of a different story, we might need to be managed slightly, but not wholesale changes from week to week. Let me read a message out from Kiran, because he's a Sarasas fan who's exactly on this issue. He said, "The Scrantle Saris fan, I think this afternoon was one of the worst performances I've seen us put out there since maybe our dropping at home by Clem on in 2017, '46, '14 for reference. I'm all for getting game time. That was at the game after the snow. Yeah, Rack has scored a hat, and Peno, it's when I saw Peno for the first time, who is this guy? I'm all for getting game time to the younger guys, but rotation at the expense of wins can only go on for so long. Seems the club are taking a very insolent point of view, view point on the issue and not really giving a monk. He's about the fan experience, been a frustrating couple of weeks. Interesting, your thoughts. I saw Ash get the wine tasting, saying he understood the rotation policy, but it was unclear how much he had had to drink. That's from Kiran. So I understood what he was saying and how he was explaining it better, because he was saying that he thought that Saracens were in a growth phase, that they need to blood and give experience to younger players in combination with older players, and he was willing to do that experience in order to secure the long-term future of the playing squad. That's what I understood from the evening. No, I hadn't had over there. I didn't have to. You're very restrained when it comes to them. I think one of the number one jobs that coaches got to do is get selection right, and currently they're getting it wrong, they're getting it wrong, because the results and the performances actually just dictate that they are. I don't really get the wholesale changes every single week, I just don't, like what's your best team? There's five prime games before the autumn. If the young players need to get experience, they're tied up with Bedford, also you have the whole month of November where you go into Prem Rugby Cup where you can get fixtures where they can get games. time. He also had a whole preseason to analyze them, to view them. There was also preseason fixtures to go, who's up to it at this point? You get to the starting line. I don't know about you, Ashley. Like, I didn't want to play every minute of every single game across every single weekend of the Gallagher Prem, but the start of the season, I don't want to be rotated, like play too much years, and then I'm out. I don't want it. I don't want it. I'm fit enough. I'm fresh enough. At this start of the season, later down the track, yeah, when it's a necessity, but this point is not a necessity, but you've made it an issue for your team, because they're not playing anywhere near their potential. And further more, so I've listed, so far through the most amount of changes, 45, Saras and 36, the two teams of the fewest, a Gloucester 20 in Northampton 17, have also got the two best attacks. They've scored the most amount of tries. I was going to say, you know, is it about certain positions? Because Charlie Ackinson started all six games for Gloucester? Yes, but the hardest thing to do in rugby and the hard thing that takes the longest to bed in is attack. So I, whether it's coincidence, or there is a connectivity between the lack of changes and the ability to be able to then become a cohesive, fluent unit and score the most amount of tries. I just don't see it as a coincidence. Saras are down that list of scoring tries, because I just don't think they've had that connectivity. But if you asked the coaches who their best team was, I reckon they'd be able to tell you, I just don't know why, and this is from a performance level as well as a fans level, because they're attending to suffering at the Stone X, put your best players out, put your best team out, because that's what people paid to see, especially at the start of a season, like give them a better chance. And it showed again today, the amount of turnovers clunky. Let's not take anything away. Harlequin, I thought were outstanding. They were so good. I've gave my hard time off to the Gloucester game and rightly so. They got pumped 48 nil. I thought they were brilliant today. Emotionally in the right spot, I thought tactically magnificent, to score four tries against Saras and total and utter control of the game. They never looked like losing. I think the thing is with the rotation policy, which is so much good in theory. The thing that I know those turnovers and stuff today, but defense, your defense is a system and it's even working or it isn't working, and as a player, young or old, you understand the system and where you fit in. I haven't seen Saras and defense look so disjointed and so individual for a long time. And it was like this week before against Connick and it was like that again today. So if you're selecting players for a rotation policy, but that player doesn't understand the system or what you're doing defensively good enough, then the whole thing's going to come falling down, isn't it? And Quinn's attack was good. And we've given Quinn's an awful lot of stick recently and we've got to say to them today, they were just top notch and I hope they continue the way they have. It's good to see them back firing. But defense, Saras defense was all over the show today. They missed 22 tackers by half time. It's not going to work, is it? It's not. It's not. The only thing good about Saras performance today was their scrub, one their pool. It's the only thing. I just find it astonishing considering the level of players. Harlequins made them look amateur at times today. Harlequins are very, very good. The challenge for Harlequins now is that's got to be a baseline level. They've got a huge game away at Sandy Park going down to Exeter. And that's their last game till November. Everyone's lost game till November. So that has to like sharpen their focus, see if they can back it up. Yeah, it's five home wins this weekend. And yeah, I mean, quick, quick, Quinter always always strong. Again, Saras at home, think they've won the last three haven't they? It's like unless, I mean, less tough in the crowd, when the crowd get going and, and Welford Road is being for blood. And the scrub at times in the second half, the referee's given a penalty almost before the engage. It was just like an absolute onslaught would have made the ABC club proud. We're talking about the BIF earlier. Like what are like what an avalanche of forward dominance that was in the second half. And then Gloucester, after a few weeks where rugby was was all fun and games and high scoring, just the dog they showed on Friday. And I've got to say, and people will think I'm I'm lying to prove a point by genuinely mean it. I watched that game. Absolutely loved it on Friday, the Gloucester Bath Game. And I enjoyed it more than the Northampton 70 Bath 50 game. Well, of course, it was a contest. We had a contest. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was a proper good game of rugby. Like I loved it. We were texting throughout the game. Really, really enjoyed that. The guts, the guts on Gloucester, especially that first half where it's like yellow card, then yellow card and held up over the line. I don't know, John Kingston or former coach of mine said, you know, attack is brilliant. Of course, you know, that's the thing that gets people excited, you know, they're the ones that gets the highlight rules or the rest of it. But he said, defense is the metric for how tight a team is. It really shows how connected people are. How much they're buying because it's hard to get up off the floor and get into line and just stick your body on the line. Right. That is tough. Not everyone wants to do that. So when you see a whole team buying into that and battering that, I thought they were class. But what was the tin ash? You're good at your D.O.Y. You're doing up a house at the moment, aren't you? You're a number of houses. What was the, what was the, that's what it says on the tin? Ronseal. Ronseal. I mean, is there a more Ronseal rugby player than Jack Morgan? Like beforehand, we thought what a great signing is honest. He's humble. He'll pitch up. He'll train his heart out. He will deliver every single game. He will be an ultimate team, man. No quarter-astor given everything you expect from Jack Morgan. He just delivers, doesn't he? He's not one of those signings. You go, well, you know, if he settles or you have to style a play suits him, you're like, that guy is just going to hit the ground running because he's a massive hearted Welshman who just rolls his sleeves up and gets stuck in and is just an absolutely unbelievable player. And it's so, it's so refreshing when you sometimes see someone just deliver all the things you expect them to deliver. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't want to sown two actually, but it is going to be because you've got to find, you've got to hit gold some point because they got it wrong. We ross burned, didn't they? Kids nowhere near the pitch. You see, they brought him in as a fly-off, paid him top money. That's one they've got wrong. And it is easily done sometimes. If you don't truly know the personality or the player that you're bringing in, but we've had a counterbalance with Jack Morgan coming in and doing like those two have, they seem to have just picked everybody else up around them. And look, I spoke to my friend who's in the length before going there. And we've talked about it earlier before that Gloucester is a big club. And they didn't belong where they were at the bottom of the league and not having much success and probably having hard time. They don't belong there are a big rugby club with a massive fan base. A lot of rugby around them in players and stuff. They don't belong there. So I don't, it didn't feel like it was going to take, you get the right people in the room and you get a quick bounce back up. We see it in football all the time. You get a right mind and you get it. Some, they get win after win after win and they step up the table. I just think those two players, couple of coaches that have gone in, they've had a drastic impact that's just improved them dramatically in a short space of time. I loved their age profile of their squad as well. Got a squad that they can keep it. It was all there, wasn't it? Something wasn't just clicking it together and it just seems it has. Yeah, I was listening to you guys on the podcast last weekend. I think you said similar things about Dave Renny and the all black squad just needed someone to come in and knit it all together. And that's been George Kivinson getting boots back on ground, having a massive difference there, recruiting Joe Tomkins, a couple world-class player and then the grandfather of rugby and one of them in Chris Boyd. But they have everything, everything that makes a really, really good team. First of all, they're a big, unbelievable fan base and King's home is just one of those places you want to play rugby, do you know what I mean? As a visitor, as part of your rugby education and what privilege to have that as a home fan. And then they play a great style with top plays who are highly skilled, who are physical and with massive hearts. I know we're early into the season. There's going to be bumps along the road. But the number one word you hear out of every coach's mouth is, "Before a game and after a game is standard, standard standards." That's the one thing that's been elevated. I think they expect so much more of one of each other and it's great to see that that is now been converted into the level of performance they consistently showing. Okay, quick one then because we've got to talk red roses, we've got to talk that the netty red card to be spoke about it a bit on the pod last week and then I've had some conversations in the last few days and that's what I pick up on the process there. But we did, I don't think you were on the pod oaks when we were at the cabbage patch and we did our top fours and I don't know who yours actually your top four, but my top four were Northampton Bath, Saris and Sail. What do you know? Well, I mean, I'm talking now between trying to like double down and go look at even four games out of 18 right in the quarter of the way through the league or whether there's, you're seeing things as Saris and Sail that go right, these teams are not making the top four. So if you were doing top four, I know there's another round before the league goes, it goes on a bit of a break for November, but if you were doing your top fours now, would you be prepared to drastically change based on what you've seen four games in or do you have strength in your conviction and all that due diligence you would have done before making your predictions to stick with your original preseason proclamations. I was on the pod when you did your top four. So your top four is the top fours. You know, you'd be talking about Gloucester for months here. I think the league is torn into three. I don't think Harlequin to make the top four, X to cheese or make the top four a new castle. No one expected them to make the top four this season. Then you've got a middle section of Sail, Bath, Saris and who looked in the early parts of the season have regressed. And then from Northampton and then you've got the top four where Gloucester have just been better, Lester, by the way, the heart they've shown considering their injury crisis they've already had as far as the season to be second at least, we're Michael Bristol Tactically. But three home games just as a little caveat. Yeah, fair. Bristol Tactically are just a better team, more mature side and Northampton Saints are the champions. So that's how I kind of have it in my mind and that's how I split the top three. But that's the way X to then have properly regressed. Oh yeah. They've gone from beaten finalists 20 minutes away from the title to, to, to, to, well, by that, by those categories right down the bottom. Actually, what are you thinking? May they're three points off the top four currently. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's early, I think it's early. Yeah. What am I thinking? I'm thinking the league is awfully tight right now. From top to bottom, it's a win or two and you could be top of the table stuff, which is great. So it is very early days. I think from my top four show, the biggest shock that I'm still struggling to understand is I put sail in there and I put it thought it was based on pretty good evidence of the players that they're recruited and surely what could possibly go wrong. Honestly, if they, if they were still playing that game now, continuing now from Friday night against Newcastle, I still don't think they would have scored a try. What's going on there, Ashie? Yeah, what's going on? They were that, that, that, that lacking any sort of punch or power to get over the trial. And not Newcastle's defence was, was good and it was like properly solid. It was good to see them like they probably wanted to win and they deserve the win. But sail went no, constantly went nowhere, just on the same line and attack and then going backwards and drop ball or penalty. I don't know. It seems like the message, I don't want to use football analogy again, but you know, like what's happening with Carrick right now? We do see similarities with this kind of stuff with a team just isn't responding to what the coach is saying because Al comes out and he speaks obviously, obviously, awfully well to the media and what's going on and how he's doing things. But that's just not getting translated through his letters, players back. We're not, we're not getting the picture that he's describing, which is, I imagine when you're a coach and at the top of it, when you see in every week your, your team not paint the picture that you're going through in the week is far from ideal. But there's two issues here, aren't there Ashie? There's the responding in terms of energy in terms of physicality and all that stuff and then how they're being, how they're coached and how they're set up to attack and they're quite different things. Are they, are they interlinked? I think it's got to be interlinked otherwise someone's not doing the job properly. But this is another confusion because it's Joe and George Ford are the ones who were doing, doing the attack, but they just seem to lack an ability to get over the game line through the forwards, not getting any, any go forward. And when they do, they drop it, which you can look at drop balls as one or two ways is either a player execution who's not concentrating or it's a coach in skill and the better coaches that I had would blame themselves for that. They'd say we're obviously not doing enough or not getting enough out of the Latin training system. Or the system's not right to do, to make too many drop balls has got to be a coach in Eric's, we're not doing enough of it. Or they're not concentrating. There's that. And the discipline, the discipline has been an issue for a long time. And that's one of those that it's a really easy thing to sort out, either don't give a stupid penalty away or you do and they seem to do it every week without fail. But I'm full to be set up whilst I've got a small sample size this season. I reckon if we listen to a podcast discussing this out from four or five years ago, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. I don't get it. So whether it's Paul Deacon or Joe Ford or George Ford or whoever they've had made is forever. This has inherently been their biggest work on and I don't know how they haven't been in a position to be able to take that next step and move their attack on. The game's built a favor attack for players to score tries for there to be more space. You see lads at the minute, literally half a yard from that back foot because no wants to give away cheap penalty. We're trying to create more space in it, but we sail the lack of fluency in their game. Their ability to hold the ball for multi phases is this isn't just this season. This is, it feels like it. We've been in this conference for quite a long time. We've got to final on then. They didn't get to the final. I mean, they got to final being incredible and let's not forget. They got themselves into top four for two or three years on the spin, but they did that by playing a quite particular style of rugby. Everyone's trying to move their game on. Sail have always been known for their physicality, been tough to be, good set peace, good defense, but it's not ever really been about their attacks. I'm not quite sure why that's not progressed. I was at the series game and I thought, yeah, their attack is clunky, but they were hungry and mean and physical and you thought, okay, well, there's that template. They'll mean they're going to win more games than they lose because of the personnel they've got and the physical they have and the game manager they have in George Ford. So to go up and be me kind of Friday and credits a new castle for doing that, that's the alarming bit. You feel that even if their attacks not going so well, they've got enough fundamentals to their game to be able to beat most teams in the league because they've got a set of such physical forwards. Yes. And one of the, I think it was one of the coaches after the, the Sarri, the Sarri Quinn, Sarri's games afternoon said, we've won two and lost two, but we think Sarasyns are in a bad place. Are we just because the league is really competitive and really close? Maybe teams aren't in as bad a situation as what we are analysing down to because one win can change things quickly and a five point win can do that. Look at what Quinn's did today. It is as simple as that. A five point win can change things. So maybe things aren't as bad as what we are. But we're not analysing results, we're analysing performances. But one good performance can change people's thinking. Yeah, I think that's valid. I think because what Quinn's did today, you suddenly go, oh, look, look at that Smith Fairbank axis. You suddenly go, okay, look, they scored some nice throws up a cell, didn't they? And suddenly the narrative a couple of weeks ago was what they've recruited poorly because they've not reinforced this area and they've got a luxury, well, a luxury player, world class player in Fairbank, but you know, it's luxury recruiting a full bat when you don't got the cattle. But now they're looking so good. You go, oh, that's a brilliant signing. So it can change pretty quick. It's three weeks on a row. They were very good against sail, very good against sail. Let's not forget. Some of the attack they put on, but then we're very good against Vaan in the challenge cup of the weekend. Then they beat Sarrison. So it's like three weeks of something building. You can't say that about sail. Well, sail then has Quinn's just gone through it and then wellbeing by glass going in this. Yeah, we'll see if they can say that for Sarri's. So it's like, it was, it was, no, it's true. But it doesn't say no to them. Sarri's away in Conor last week and like, excuse me. And then you go to the scoop and like fans are going, what on earth is going on? Yeah, but if they don't want to, they'll be top of the league. Yeah, but once again, to reiterate what I'm saying, we're not talking about results, performance. The league's so tight and there's only four matches. So it is going to be so, so tight. But when you just look at the performances and on measuring Sarrison against their potential, when you have a look at the names on the sheet and who's not even involved, and been rested and rotating like they're off it for them way off it. Just to pick up what we spoke about last week, with that netty permanent red for to lose. And I said on the pod, I didn't understand how that's a permanent red given all the guidance we're getting from World Rugby. I've checked with World Rugby. I've checked with EPCR. I've checked with Hugo Mondia, who sits on some of these panels. That should have been a 20 minute red. We go from what we are being told. 20 minute reds are for tackles. Permanent reds are for thuggery and all those different parts of the game. Netty's tackle is a horrid one. But from what we're being told, am I plea to World Rugby and to the authorities ahead of the autumn is you've got to be so, so clear because I got a barrage of people slagging me off on my Instagram and I put that clip up going at a red what do you know you're talking nonsense. I'm sorry. That's the way it's being officiated. That should have been a 20 minute red card. Rugby's getting a bit like that, by the way. Like Jones, you offered an opinion and met your BBC Rugby Union correspondent for a reason because if you're going to post something like that, it's because you've cross referenced and checked and you're speaking with confidence. It's because you're right. And I actually commented on your post yesterday. I said I'm not offered an opinion. This is facts. So it's not a conversation. It's not a debate. Jones, what you posted last week was absolutely spot on. Everything we're told, terms of the guidance last week, that should have been a 20 minute red card. It's not a debate. It's a fact. It's just the fact. No one's condoning Netty's action, the tuk-tum, shoulders of the head or the rest of it. Two things can be, can both be true. You can say that should have been downgraded, whilst also not condoning it. And you didn't do either of those things, by the way. If you want to see what a permanent red card looks like, have a look at the viral clip of the bloke stamping on the guy's knee in Wales in a rug. That's your red card. Netty's not. This weekend, if you see that type of Netty tackle and you see a 20 minute red card, don't cry for inconsistency, Holly Davidson made a mistake last week. That's all it is. And we have to be certain and clear to protect referees more so than anything and the integrity of our sport to be able to separate what's a mistake and what's inconsistency. Holly Davidson made a mistake last week. If you see a red card this week, it's not inconsistency, is someone correctly applying the law. Yeah. And the fact that Netty's only got a two week ban shows the panel saw it as a reckless act, but not a deliberate act. If Holly Davidson wants to get a part of the red, no, but when I say deliberate, I mean they have to do that. It's well, and this is another point. Two things quickly because we want to talk red roses. A deliberate act is them saying that Netty has deliberately tried to maim the guy's shoulder on head. And if that is the case, then that's a high end. We're looking at a multiple week ban. But by being two weeks, the panel have gone that it's reckless, but it is also accidental. He's meaning to hit his body, not his head. And the other thing where I feel really sorry for the supporters and even the ones giving me grief on my Instagram, I sympathise with them because we have spent years and years and years and years and years hammering from a media and an organisation and authority point of view to say these are red cards, this challenge. Here's the checklist, no mitigation, always illegal. All of those buzzwords we've been banging on about since 20, whenever it was 2017 when the tackle crack down started. And then suddenly in the last year, we've gone right, all of that's out the window because it comes to 20 minute red card. And I get whether 20 minute red card exists, I understand it. I understand the reasoning, but it's tough on the fans who have just got accustomed to the old money red cards and are now being told, oh, you need to complete the condition yourself from all of that you've learned because 20 minute red cards are now a thing. And it's going to take time for people to get on board with 20 minute reds, and it needs the governing bodies and us in the media to be really, really clear about what's what. But we can't have everything and this is why games in perfect because the people who was screaming at the tally or at you on Instagram are saying that's an absolute red card at the same people saying, oh, 15, 3, 14 is the worst of the time. 15, 3, 13, may as well be sevens. What do you want? So if the cries from the fans, messaging isn't even clear, then how do we expect to do you know what's mean? We're asking for, we're asking for everything and not getting anything. So I get your point in terms of the clarity of the message and 100%, we need to, we can all do more to make sure that the fans absolutely know the differences was expected of us. But what I've been pushing for, because the reason we've brought in the 20 minute red card, and for me the best example of it is Sam Cain's Circulacy World Cup Final, the difference in tackles is about six inches. One goes for a permanent red card, the other one goes for yellow card. So we do it to protect the integrity of the match. We've had two red cards in the Gallagher Prem, both teams who got the red card, ended up winning. Jacques Firminan for, for sale at Sarasons, and in fact, Sarasons at Leicester earlier on, they both ended up winning the game. So it's to protect the integrity of the sport for the players of the contest as well as the fans. For me, the trade of them needs to be, they needs to be hard, hard a sanction on players off the pitch. So if that was something that's deemed a two week offence or sanction, I think it needs to be a three or four week, because we are protecting the integrity. We give an everything to the fans, to the broadcasters, to the players, to the teams, but there needs to be a tougher sanction off the pitch or something I've pushed for. Yeah, I just think I really hope it's a mega November coming up. There's an even more mega world cup coming up. We just need to be really careful. We're not having more conversations about foul play and sanctions and reds and permanent reds and 20-minute reds and yellows and nothing and PKs only. That just be my concern. I think this last week, when no one on the broadcasters or very, very few people have gone, hold on, that is not in keeping with the guidance we're getting out of world rugby about 20-minute reds. But anyway, we'll move on. Red roses, we've not got much time left, but what a game, another brilliant Canada win. Deservedly so. Just fascinating, isn't it, guys? I'm sure you've both been involved in winning teams, in teams that have been on a streak and just how a couple of defeats and then John Mitchell is talking about TMO and referee decisions and about PWR and too many Canadians in the PWR and not enough game time and all this stuff that we talk about how the prem landscapes changed. A couple of weeks ago, no, we're saying a word about the strength and depth and the red roses and there weren't enough care minutes and not enough players getting game time. And now all this stuff, you know, it's after their style and their overrides on certain areas and certain people, it's fascinating how things can change. But fair play Canada, they play such a wicked brand of rugby with some players that just make you smile when you watch them with the way they go about and the style of rugby they play. Huge fan of Canada, how they play their rugby, it's, you know, we've been discussing a lot whether it's about results of performance were with Canada, they're getting both for anyone that maybe came across them, the women's World Cup a couple of years ago, like Waterjoy, like Waterjoy and their team that genuinely can do everything. They can, they play multi-face from deep, they've got a really good like multi-person kicking game, they've got a good scrum, they've got decent mall, they've got wicked defense, they've got rock star wingers, like they've got the best player in the world in Sophie de Goodie and Sophie de Goodie do go to, so I was trying to, I was trying to work out what, who she plays like and the only thing I could think of is what was Andy Farrell's position in rugby league as she was it a loose forward. They played everywhere, but yeah. Yeah, I told you she's like a loose forward, like a number 13. He could do that. Because I think, I think she plays like a rugby league loose forward who is kind of half back, half forward and a kind of ball-curring lock who's a playmaker at the same time. It's mad, I've never seen anything like it in union. She's phenomenal and she often gets compared to John Eels because John Eels kicked as a second row. So it's a bit of a, it makes sense to comparison but laser comparison because I actually think Sophie de Goodie's out on her own and John Eels' remarkable player in captain and like what brilliant bloke is still today. Sophie de Goodie is so special, like so special. She's the Canadian captain. She's got 21 points of their 31. She's got a hat trick from lock. Yeah, from lock who can also play number eight, but then she makes really hard things look really simple. She is absolutely phenomenal. So it got me thinking if she was, if she was playing in the men's game, she'd be one of the most coveted players in world rugby hands down, but not just because I think finding a like a world-class second row today so so hard, but finding a world-class second row that scores hat trick and gold kicks and is like, you know, it's unreal. So with that in mind, she is the world-player of the year. When was the last second row to be world-player of the year in the men's game? Because you're Clewie. Correct, Ashley. Oh, Brodie Ritalic. Brodie Ritalic is him. What year? 2013 or 2013? 2014. You're absolutely. spot on. So when you have a look at it and like we're going to have the well play of the year, that's going to be announced next month. But yeah, so for the goodies, the only second road to ever win the award, Brody Ritalik is the only second road to have ever won the award. Ebenezerbeth, he was nominated 23 as well as 24, but they're so unfancy, but so for the goody for what she contributes. And I'm really pleased with Canada, I have to say, because let's get this right, the Red Roses aren't some missionary rugby team that just spread in rugby joy around the world, they're there to win matches. And they've been outplayed by Canada over the last couple of weeks and some might say even down at Sandy Park. But the buy-in from the Canadian rugby public has been exceptional, Ottawa, Toronto, brilliant crowd. You had the Secretary of State for Sport in comms talking about the effect is really caught on. So to have the Red Roses to host them, then to beat them back to back weekends, that's kind of the injection you need in the women's game. That does nothing for the Red Roses, but it does absolutely everything for Canada and the women's game. It's probably the one team in the world that England didn't want to play this weekend, isn't it? To get back winning, they would not have wanted to play Canada again right now. But I think losses and disappointments are really the only way that you properly look at things and see where you put things right. I feel that you have to go through these periods to get going again. Like we said last week, the run was never going to go on forever. It's impossible. It's going to end up some point. Interesting. I saw Steve Hanson talk on his podcast, the Great From All Blackscoach, said exactly that. He's like, and he presided over a New Zealand team that won two world cups and were absolutely unbeatable for a few years. And he said, when you're winning, you bury stuff. You bury stuff maybe in terms of relationships between players or your backs and your forwards, or whatever, or the way you want to play the game or you bury selection issues, you bury it when you're winning. And so this is like, things now will come up about the world red roses in terms. It's the same speed up that you are in terms of. And yeah, you're going to see the overlions on the line out drive and a connected attacking game. But these things, you bury when they win the world cup thing. You die because we've been having this conversation about the red roses, that predates them losing the world cup in New Zealand. Been like, had this same conversation, their attack. It's like, they're amazing, they're physical. They've got an unbelievable kicking game. They've got great game control, but they rely upon a power game. But the question has always been, but what if someone can match them? And unfortunately, yeah, they've been found out the last couple of weeks. It's, yeah, it's the thing that needs, that needs correcting, because they have got so many talented players. But honestly, there's, in terms of where they're out versus their potential, where they could get to in attack. But this is a conversation about for years as well. It's the glaring area within their game that could take them to a whole new level. It really is. Amazing run, but now they've got, they've got to, you know, not go back to drawing board at all. They've got such a great foundation. Well, I mean, this is, they've got to work on. This is their worst form for 10 years. But I was thinking about that earlier. And it's like, if you feel, God, should you be critical, given they've won 40-odd games in a row? But then, if you are the all-black side of 11 to 15, if you are the Aussie cricket team of, let's say, 93 to 05. And then when they, when the Aussie cricket team loses in India, because Lakshman had Dravid and Sasha make a load of runs, or they lose to England, because England had been inspired, reverse swing bowling attack in 05, I bet you the inquest was severe because of the standards they set. So when you set those super high standards and you are an epoch defining sporting team, if you are Jordan's Chicago balls, when they lost, I bet you everyone was like, right, these are the issues. And that's just the reality of being high performing. Yeah, no one's hammering them. They've, what they've set out and what they've done is remarkable. They've also got some serious quality to come back. Lockhack in Davis is back two months after given birth. Congratulations on Marley Pack and Rosie Galligan. Just had a baby literally within weeks. And Marley Pack is to come back Rosie Galligan. She'll be back. Zoe Stratford is going to come back into the fold. I mean, that's quality in class. And they showed out in France last six nations, what they can do missing so many top international as well. It's, it's a moment, often, so after the World Cup, they're trying to hit the reset button. I bet it would have been hard. Now today, it's not hard to hit a reset button because you're having to go again. You're having to answer. You're having to reset and remodel what standards look like. Absolutely right. Anything else? A word on the Osprey. So back is in hell and winning. Lens the winning month, it'll tempered. Lens the monster games and some allegations afterwards will keep an eye on. I've seen with Gavin, with Gavin Coombs. That could, that could rumble this week. So keep an eye on that Edinburgh 4th and 4th, topping the log. There is loads more we could talk about. Well, we're out of time. Actually, anything to finish on? What does your week have in store? So I have to arm, isn't it? Probably trampoline parks. Joaks aside, have they got, have they got you a new castle next Saturday? Yes, no, since they have. It says Harrison's. It's Harrison's. But it was on the quest, actually, because my wife, as crazily, opened up the doors to the house for 25 kids and 25 adults for Halloween next Saturday. So I am pretty desperate to get in and out of, no, no, I need to be a runner, to be sure to do this place. Just, yeah, stop some kids climbing off walls and smashing windows. But you want, you want, you want way to, to get it done not only. It's been rumbling. Well, he may be a lot. I want to promise that he'd never go past it, but I guess that's how the window right now. He made your promise. Well, yeah, we shook on it, but I know he just seems to have forgotten that. No, well, that's that's that's banter. He's his career. He can't just like stop scoring tries because he's your mate. I don't know. Well, I said, mate, let's just, let's call it. He actually suggested it to me. He said, what, cool it, what I wanted, he retires. No, he just said, let's stop, I'll stop on a draw and he said, all right, well, shake it, shake it, shake it and he did. He was like, what happened, if he's got a walk, okay, walking, he can give it to someone else, can't he? He can't give it to someone else. What if he's going, let me, he can, he can, he can, he could give it to someone else, but he can't, he's going for the corner and he's got a other choice. This, I, this is, this feels like 2017 and Ashie is sad, Warburton and Christian Wade is care and read and this, this, this, yeah, the series is draw. They're like, what do we do now? So we can't just shake, like, that should be made up of that, that was weird. Yeah, you can remain, remain, now, and reach like, that's not how rugby works, remain, don't just draw because it's a nice thing to do, you give a penalty because the place offside. Oh dear, but it's not right, it was, it's just, what's that phrase about, don't, don't lament that it's gone and enjoyed it, it was there or something. Exactly, because you did well to get past the hundred, giving you a like, yeah, of course, that lester, that lester stuff was all a bit of bonus, wasn't it extra few tries, extra prem, medal? Yeah, for sure. And keep the European one. Well, we'll do, well, if you lose this one, we'll ham up the European one, we'll make, we just switch, do we switch it? And then we're not going soon, we work on the top four team one. That might be the one to keep, to really keep an eye on, is that one in the season, that might not be going anywhere. Right, nice for everyone. Cheers, James. Thanks for being there. Cheers, I'll see you soon. We are here and we're back twice a week every Thursday and Sunday. We are going to try and tackle all of the big stories in football throughout the season. Everyone's talking at the moment about, oh, you got to invest in gold, so I think you just melt it all down, then you give each of the teams a little bit of gold. There you go. Yeah, I mean, the big revelation for me there is that you think the strifies are made out of gold. Yeah, silverware. Yeah, silverware. This week on the interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhoods turned into content. There's a new law in California that gives influencers the right to be forgotten and it could impact adults too. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.