Hi, this is Rahim Khan Shake. Welcome to Fort Nightly Railway Transportation Systems Podcast. I am the host and Railway Systems Specialist. This podcast is primarily focused on railway experts who have vast amount of experience and contributed greatly to this amazing industry. This is not a technical seminar but focuses on field good stories, individual journeys, their success and failures. Motivating English Generation to kick start their career in railways and creating a sense of pride for the railway people who devoted their lives on the most environment-friendly public transportation. Welcome to another episode of Railway Transportation Systems where we delve into the intricacies of rail engineering and technology. Today we are honored to host Mohan Shankar Subbu, a distinguished technical executive and engineering lead with over 23 years of experience in rail signaling systems. Mohan is a fellow of the Institute of Railway Signalling Engineers and holds dual registrations as chartered professional engineer and registered professional engineer Queensland. He has led groundbreaking projects across the globe, specializing in the development, design, testing and integration of advanced train control systems. Recently recognized as a finalist for the Signalling and Systems Engineering Excellence Award at the 2020-24 Australasian Rail Industry Awards. Mohan brings a wealth of expertise in the ERTMS CBTC and other critical technologies shaping the future of rail transport. Join us as we explore his journey insights and future of rail signaling. Welcome Mohan, welcome to the pod. Thank you Rahman, thank you for your invite. Before I start I should say congratulations on your award. Excellent brilliant mate, brilliant. Thank you very much. It was a humble to get recognized by ARA and IRC. Thanks to them. There is a question for that. I will ask in my list of questions to you. Let's start with the first one. Can you share your journey in rail signaling industry and how you became involved in such complex systems? Yes, I started my rail signaling systems carrier in 2003. It was with Union Switch and Signals. Now it's a Hidachi rail. When I started I was in Bangalore in India. Before that I was working for computers and electronic weighing systems industries. At the start of my carrier post my diploma graduation in 2001. So it was for a short period of two years. Then I chose a rail industry as my pathway for a carrier growth. After my initial year of training in design and testing for processor based interlockings for Indian railways. I have been deported as a site engineer in Southeast Central Railway in the Belaz Food Division to execute some of the construction testing and commissioning activities for number of PBA interlockings in northern part of India. So there are two and a half years of experience as a site engineer. I switched back to design development and slowly moved into the work package deliveries and as a project engineer activities more of project engineer activities at that point. So that was the time where we started with Botswana Railways. That was one of the first to overseas project I would say where we were pretty much traveling like a resident engineer doing the designs from India and traveling to Botswana for all the surveys site execution, testing and commissioning and so on. It was nearly around two years plus that exposure. It was really a very good experience starting from modernizing the complete brownfield rail of 700 plus kilometers into a modern railway with PBA technologies and all integrated communication systems plus remote control systems and so on. It's a very highly integrated project with a lot of overseas resources working across the globe for that project. And then I was very happy to be contributing myself from a flux site project engineering and design lead point of view. And since then I was after completing those activities and I moved into number of high density interlocking expansion projects in Indian railways. Some of them are like given with the six months of target to replace 15 interlockings in northwestern side of Indian railways or a western zone. So that was running for nearly about a year. Plus then before I moved to Australia I was working in another major project called Juhe yard. Most of the Indian elderly people would have known that there's one of the high complex Indian railway traffic area. So I was working on some of the development activities to have a most complex interlocking solution. Then after that I got an opportunity to work with auto hall. At that point it was called ATO project in 2008 and I moved to Perth in Australia. So I started with my Australian counterpart in Perth. So at that point as when I came here so GF so then suddenly we changed our profile and then most of the projects are where I went on a whole and then we started working at a few other regional railways example like a RTC and some of the QR regional projects at that point. So back in again 2010 so Rafa alliance has been formed for a heat ash rail. That was one of the biggest alliance I worked. So it's it was about almost like a still running as I can see. So it was about all expansion on for entire rear to rear to network with more modern technologies, auto hall expansion, mining expansions and so on. So it was about like four or five years and then we have also started Royal mine project for the signaling and communication expansions. So customized ETC solution. That was my first ATC exposure I would say and then I was a systems integration and testing engineer integrating quite a lot of modern stuff. I was quite a lot of good learning. Then I got an opportunity to move to Queensland. So at that point to Queensland we were working on a major project for Kipari line. So they call it as a modern bay rail link project. So that was one of the major project for an infrastructure point of view at that point. So I was a project engineer for responsible for delivering the project and the major scope was migrating from one of the planned product to the modern version of the product. So I was pretty much starting from the scratch and system architecture testing development, testing integration and so on. So that was one of the key project in my career I would say when I worked with closely with the Queensland rail and delivered the project somewhere around 2018 and 2017 was a testing and 18 was a commissioning and then by the time we started ETCS level two the most iconic project again in Queensland and at that point it was a Queensland rail project. Then we started as a Queensland rail related requirements and the slowly it was kind of transferred to cross river railway delivery authority as a bigger organization to deliver the big packages. And then since then I was on the cross river rail project almost for eight plus years. That was one of the major project I would have worked for such a long period of time with so many subsystems and system systems included. So since then so the pilot line and the test number of test tracks were our commission and it was pretty much ready for revenue service at the at the moment. And so I got another opportunity. So as a technical executive to deliver some of the key projects working closely with the client side of the scope. So I take that opportunity now I'm with WSP doing my technical executive role expanding rail capability slightly widening my area of coverage to rail systems slightly over the signaling systems at the moment. That's pretty much my career journey. Yeah great great journey I should say we will dwell into it and I'll be asking more technical side of questions. So let's start with your fellowship as a fellow of the Indian Institute of Railway Signal Engineers what significance does this accrediation hold for your career and in the industry. Yeah this is one of the important aspect of my career I would say. So I'm engaged with IRSE since nearly now seven plus years since I moved to Australia I was part of the various IRSE activities. If you look at from IRSE's gold point of view it was it was a very good organization for signaling and telecommunications engineers for for learning and expanding their their you know competencies as well as getting to know that what are all the different projects that we do and then there are quite a lot of events, CPD sessions and so on. So I was very impressed with the number of activity what IRSE was doing across the globe as well as in Australia as an IRSE Australia session. So we could see that like there are a quarter of interconnected activities across in the Asia Pacific region I would say. So I was initially got my membership almost like six seven years ago and then slowly I was preparing myself for the various career progressions and then on a senior roles and IRSE was kind enough to accept my fellowship application. So what it basically kind of gives me a window is as a single engineer I demonstrate that we have a more responsibility as a as particularly on the on the safety and operational efficiencies head of it. Then obviously it provides a way to went for our continuous learning and networking so that is one of the other and then as a fellow again comes to the point of what we are giving back to the industry. So that is more important to me saying that so while we learn so much from organizations like IRSE so what we are contributing back what we are volunteering back I think that is giving that responsibility back to us to become a fellow. I've gone crazy with you Mohan. I won't go deep into the ERTMS and ETCS CBTC etc but can you tell me since you have worked extensively in the ERTMS ETCS level 2 CBTC and ATP technologies how have these systems evolved over the years and what are some of the key challenges in actually implementing them in the real railway? Yeah I could say that so starting from for example ATP was was there nearly for I could say probably around 20-30 years now. Yeah I think when I moved to Australia that was the first ITP project prior to that we were doing some ETCS level 1 project in India I was just you partially involved with those.
technical requirements and discussions on the concept designs and so on but not much involved in the execution of the project. And that is the time we were just started reading all this is all about ETCS level 1 or TPW solutions at that point it was a customized TPW solution in India. So when I moved to Australia so the project which I came up for Rio Tinto was already having a ATP system on and as well as when I worked for PTA so there was already a L-10,000 system as well as L-12,000 systems and L-16,000 systems which are all more of an you know various versions of income signaling which is pretty much deployed at that point. And then when I see as we go into the newer projects when the ETCS level 2 come up so as I can see the as the technology gets developed so the systems are more and more getting wider and complicated and more modern versions of the what you can in terms of the requirements or in terms of the the integration challenges these are all the few things which is continuously evolved over the period of time so the simple systems are more and more getting complex. That's what I would see from as the technology you know improves that so there is a quite lot of capability so that's the one of the major change which I was saying from number of systems which I had an exposure with then obviously integration which is the biggest challenge the more and more previously when we were doing a micro account like for example or any other like pretty much we were only talking about our two 32 communications and our RS480 to communication for example our 422 communication and then now slowly as the IoT getting expanded so I could see that we are having more and more complex communication systems and more and more high power systems. It's good to see obviously that is solving quite a lot of you know industrial problems there and then as we go with the higher technologies with more modern IoT solutions and more integrated networks so the cyber become a new topic or new challenge when any type of systems whether it is yes or CBDC CBDC is more of a very dedicated network arrangement for urban solution but DCS is kind of like more mixed solution for a passenger railway as well as the freight traffic so it has got its own challenges by itself as the technology improves so that is also you know kind of increasing as well. In a Mohan let's keep this topic for challenges itself because as you said in your first question in your intro about Royal and Rio Tinto can you also tell us what are the unique challenges you faced in the I don't know industry. Since 2008 pretty much I'm working on um um fried and particularly the I know industry so it was very custom made railway that's what I would say as a as my first appearance it has got its own rules it has got its own technology and the one good thing which I found is the technological advancement what I know industries in deploying is quite massive and Auto Hall was a classic example so we could pretty much see that the all Mohan system capabilities are being brought into that that project starting from how we are interfacing with the RBC systems and how the communication systems are evolved over the period of time then obviously with this requirements of various tools and developments. So I know industry has got pretty much setting a most kind of like a way forward for rest of the freight network when it comes to technological deployment so Auto Hall was a very classical example as well as if you look at from the customization point of view so they also try to do a lot of sustainability works in terms of deploying the overlay signaling systems or customized solutions. So I found mostly the I know industry has got quite a lot of you know technological power I would say so where they can able to deploy the technology more faster than our passenger network or mainline traffic out there. Great insights Mohan let's go back to qualifications being a competency assessor and auditor how do you ensure the highest standards of safety and performance in rail signaling systems. This is my favorite topic so my experience as a competency assessor or auditor spreads across IRC licensing scheme mainly and then I also does companies internal competency or workplace assessments and assessing the engineers for a specific project or rims requirements as well as recruitment interviews. So the competency is kind of like sitting across various buckets of my portfolio I would say. In addition I also provide the references and the endosment for the candidates for the professional registration. For example engineers or as NER stage two registration or CP engineering registration. Sometimes for IRC members should be even sometimes we need to go deeper into their qualifications and experiences or sometimes even for job references. So I see competency assessment is pretty much sitting across every time when we try to assess for any specific reason so it is sitting across everywhere. So every scheme of assessment or references or endosment has got a specific assessment criteria to follow guided by their respective organizations regulations or procedures. For example if you take IRC licensing scheme has got a detailed standards for the assessment so in accordance with the IEC 1701 for conformity assessment for general requirements for bodies operating certification of persons. And for the audits we need to follow IEC 1721 for the requirements of bodies providing the audit and certification for the management systems. So there are certain guidelines already for an assessor to follow. On the other side if you look at engineers Australia NER or CP engineering scheme they have got like a 16 units of competency sitting across four core areas. So as a assessor we need to look at those specific requirements what needs to be taken into the account from technical proficiency their personal commitment their obligation to the community and their value in workplace. So these are all the few core areas where we focus to check against the candidate's experience. In general all the assessments are looking for the right level of knowledge both theoretical as well as factual skills for example both practical and cognitive skills and their ability personal abilities methodological ability and the social ability. So for a specific competency and levels and of course it is all supported by the documented evidences interviews testimonials or sometimes even our physical you know witnessing. So it is a mix of many things we need to take into the account. So I ensure that I understand the purpose of the assessment and it's associated criteria while assessing the candidates for the right level of performance and maintain the high standards. Brilliant answer very well explained Mohan thank you so much for this. Now coming part to the best part of the port your recent recognition as a finalist for the signaling and systems engineering excellence award is impressive. What achievements or projects do you believe contributed most to this nomination? That's interesting and yeah anyway thank you for this question so again so I take this opportunity to thank them for this national recognition and and I'm also thankful to my past employer Hitachi for their great support on my career of 21+ years with them and now I'm also getting well well well well received within the WSP here. I guess the assessment committee would have looked at my nomination as a whole rather than a specific project or task and of course in comparison with my core finalist which I believe they are super good and inspiring people as well they in their experiences and contribution to the industry. I was fortunate to talk to them during the award event and to see what what is their kind of final passion on the on the industry so they were quite amazing as well. I believe my recent contributions on Brisbane's Cross River Rail EDCS level 2 project as well as the Consumer Rail system, the Morton Rail Link project which I was mentioning before then Rio Tinto Auto Hall was one of the Guinness World Record project you would have seen from various the news in the past and of course Roy Hills Signalling and Communication Project where I have got a great opportunity to work as a systems integration engineer. So these are some of the key Australian projects I would have contributed I guess most of the selection criteria rules I would say and of course in terms of the achievements in particularly every project I work had a number of innovations and novities involved. Say for example for EDCS level 2 we have developed and deployed a new system called Over and Back which helps in reducing the overall testing time and improves the operational efficiency well tried and then in revenue service system it was quite a lot of time and cost savings in the deployment of that. Then Rio Tinto's RAV Hall hence was one of the good good projectors so we developed a system called Overlay Signalling System which is kind of like a temporary system put in commissioning area for allowing the trying traffic to come through while we are doing the testing and commissioning for the rest of the new system which also helps reducing the overall duration and other you know per session efforts and we have developed a new cap code for the enhancement so cap code number 33 so like that there are a number of innovations was in all the projects where I worked and then I contributed heavily on from tracks and engineering point of view as well as for MBR projectors so there was a huge challenge in interlocking product migration which I was leading the systems engineering and integration part and that cost that cost successfully commissioned in 2018 that was one of the very what we call nerve-wracking project for me to personally to take care of time frame and and doing all the testing and integration activity that was one of the key one which I would say like it was without contributed. I guess these are some of the key items but I'm sure they are the assistant committee would have looked at more wider than what I what I thought and and led to their decision in selection of this award. Yeah they did write decision. Very micro points difference with the co-finalist I would say. I think everyone who was nominated is a winner and I congratulate everyone who got nominated and now you spoke more about Australian's railways or Australian signaling projects. Let's move to the other part. What are the critical considerations when integrating diverse signaling technologies into a cohesive system especially in multi-national projects like those with
Indian railways and Boswana railways. Yeah, my experience on Indian railways and what's one railways was more than a decade old now. Our past technological challenges were a bit outdated as I can say. However, the fundamental process and people challenges are remains in any current projects in Australia or anywhere else. So at that time, some of the key technological challenges were more related to the cost-effective technological solution. I think that is what are pretty much driving the whole project. Example, we developed a solution to use the a simple, excellent, based system for a level-causing management. Nowadays, there are more modern solutions available, but at that time, it was a very cost-effective solution for Boswana using the ACS-Exel-Counter 2000 system by Frosher, which later upgraded to a much versatile solution, but at that time, that was one of the driving factor for that. Then, similarly, for Indian railways, we were developing myclock-2-based, the hot sun-based system, using purely Boolean logics without having any modern sinker comes board. So again, that comes to the cost and the more lean solution in terms of innovation, I would say. And one of the last project Indian railways project I was working at the development phase before I moved to Australia, which I mentioned before as a Juhi-Yar. So there were so many micro-oxidistributed across like three different zones, for example, which has got really 600-plus roots and so many logical links and Boolean equations. Later, I guess, around 2012, they would have commissioned that. That point that was one of the biggest PVV project in India. So which is currently handling many passenger and freight traffic in a complex and busiest Indian railway routes. In summary, at that time, with the limited technological advancement, we were trying to apply all possible innovation to optimize the system capability to limit and still meeting the safety and reliability requirements. I think that's what a challenge is at that point. Yeah, great insights, Moan. Since you spoke about innovation, how do you approach innovation in rail signaling? Are there any specific projects or technologies that you are excited about and that could revolutionize the industry? Oh, yes, there are many. I'm pretty much trying to upkeep with all those my readings, late night evening readings. Let's talk about the best one. With a standard rapid technological advancement and more and more connected systems, I could see rail systems will eventually catch up with the other modern industry, particularly in an integrated train control and management system space. I believe every rail system developers or rail infrastructure managers are currently focusing on digitalizing their rail with more sustainable energy efficient solution. And as an upcoming trend, I would say we might move more into more of TCS-based solution for a far-four-mixed traffic. I believe TCS level three is pretty much ready for revenue in Europe. I might very soon be the topic here in Australia, which might help solving some of our interoperable solutions problems with more advanced requirements and solution. And the ATO over-ETs might likely be the norms for all modern train equipments with the onboard, you know, for an urban requirements. And FRMCS solution is very well under discussion now in many railways. I'm sure we will soon start seeing the revenue versions in a couple of years. At the same time Australia will commence the journey in high-speed rail solution. I'm seeing more and more now on LinkedIn posts. We can start by keeping ourselves for this mega trends in Australia. I'm sure all the across generation will be working on the project. In summary, every aspect of our rail signaling is going through your change in the name of modernization and renovation. So there is plenty of scope for learning and adoption for current and future workforce in railing. Great insights, Maun. Let's go towards a leadership question. I know you're technically very sound. How about managing a team of over 60 engineers and stakeholders must involve significant leadership challenges? How do you foster collaboration and ensure alignment towards project goals? Yeah, this is one of the biggest challenges in any project I work with. Particularly when I worked for RSER or EDCS Level 2 project, which was my longest runner in my career. With a number of stakeholders in the structure from Aliens partners with many number of reviewers, independent certifiers, independent safety assessors, and eventually end user, which is QR. It was really interesting as well as challenging to get this things planned and delivered. So that was one of the biggest challenge. And within our team, with the trackside team of like a 60 plus engineers, including all internal engineers, external remote engineers, plus all the external specialist services with the 14 plus major packages to deliver for the pilot line for our in-shantlef as well as various dynamic test tracks, which we did in Red Bank and Wulkoreka and so on. That was the biggest challenge to manage the people with such a large number of groups. So the fundamentals are clear communication and a continuous team building exercise, controlled litigation, training and competency development was all at once to be taken care of. We spent quite a lot of meetings, workshops and working groups, brainstorming sessions, pretty much on a weekly basis. So with a number of subsystem interfaces also, and for a trackside subsystem apart from people interfaces, that starting from onboard existing interlocking modification, telecom subsystem interface, cyber, power systems, TMS, etc. It's quite a lot of complicacies was sitting there. Plus a number of specialist functions like a trackside waste, human factors, headway modeling, along with all sorts of system engineering functions overlaying on what was the whole lot of areas to deal with. At that point, I'm pretty much, I had one or two specialists on each topic to deal with, and I provided a direction and making decisions. It's pretty much, I do everyday assignments for my approvals and progress in further. So it has really challenged and tested my ability to realize how much I can accommodate in any. Agreed. I completely conquer. It's not easy, Mohan. Since you sharing so much of knowledge on this pod, I want you to give some giveaways for our audience. Since you spoke about systems engineering, in systems engineering tell us the key factors for the success of complex rail projects. Are there any specific methodologies or approaches you find most effective? Could you share that? When I started realizing that this system engineering principles and processes are getting more and more spread across every rail projects few years ago, I was more curious to learn and expand my knowledge on AC principles. So starting from how the requirements are developed and managed and how the evidences and the changes are managed via the, you know, CCBs, managing the requirements across the wider systems on an integrated manner with so many interfaces and comes up with its own requirements. So this in-cost AC systems engineering rules, or I would say like them, the processes and procedures, helped quite a lot of our understanding and how other industries following particularly the airline industry was quite more modern for those type of systems in principle. So we were trying to kind of read and understand so every day our systems engineering is kind of come up with the new processes that are making sure the new tools are correctly deployed. I would say the the principles are pretty standard but it's a way how it has been propagated to the down line. So I think that is where the success of systems engineering sitting there because and obviously number of projects provided more finite exposure to the other systems engineering areas for requirements allocation, evidences, integration and assurance. Also helped in understanding the management of application conditions for example for how we you know control the application conditions and expanding that further. It is also given a more exposure on linkages with socio-political and economical factors. I would see every engineer nowadays in rail systems wider than signaling. So need to be having a some level of competency in systems engineering into principle to understand how this is all getting you know interconnected for a successful delivery of the project. Great insights Maun really great insights. So let's stick to that and can you also give us an advice for our young engineers who are aspiring to specialize in rail signaling and systems engineering? See all engineers joining are already in the signaling and systems engineering area of rail nowadays there are many specialist areas within this discipline to expand your knowledge skills and get yourself competing on. So you can focus on as an interlocking expert ETCS based expert or core RBC engineer in ETCS or signaling specific cyber systems tools and simulations for example that's another area could kind of like widening at the level. Nowadays I see even the signal engineers need to have a lot of knowledge in rail ops planning, rail modeling, human factors and so on. From future project point of you you can focus on more interoperable solutions recently high speed rail which we just talked about getting more traction in Australia as a mega project trend. Even our so-called conventional systems are more contemporary with the technological upgrades from power systems to earth thing and bonding and standalone interlockings which has got like more modern solutions. So system engineering itself it's a mandatory knowledge area which we just talked about for every rail systems discipline I would say highly recommend every rail engineer get a basic training and exposure to systems engineering practices to better understand and repeat the holistic view of the of the project in Coss is doing already very good with job and mentorship on that. Likewise there are many areas you can expand your expertise on. At last I would highly encourage young engineers to join the professional organizations like IRSE or pre-WA or RTA and so on depends on which area they are practicing. I would highly encourage for them to join there to expand their knowledge best get to know the current affairs in the industry. Moreover wherever you are in the part of your career find one or more mentors to guide you to progress to the next stage of your career. They say that there are many mentors in my career they have supported me in whatever I wish to move on and learn in my career. I feel very thankful to them.
are many many to name but we do may not have a time today. Yeah, without mentors, we wouldn't have been here. I agree. I conquer with you. And finally, what motivates you most in your career and what goals do you hope to achieve in the coming years? What's next? Every project that I worked on and delivered had got unique challenges and problems to solve and I got a lot of learnings from them to apply for my next project. So I feel like attending a college every day to learn and do something new. My wife sometimes asked, how are you going to do the office so happily every day? There are many of her working friends that tell her that work is always exhausting them. For some reason for me, it is not. Moreover, the amount of technological advancement coming to the rail industry in a rapid manner challenges my thoughts that we can stop learning and be outdated. So since I joined the public sphere on a technical executive leadership role, now I'm the mode of business and technical capability development and providing a technical advisory and consulting to my clients as well as keeping my foot on core technical skills on their design developments. Moreover, consciously expanding my wings on overall rail systems area covering other core rail systems including overhead line traction power, air thing boarding, telecommunications and LV to gain more knowledge on these systems and expanding my delivery capabilities towards performing a technical director type of roles in the future for any of the rail systems project. Also, I got another personal wish list of performing in my engineering doctorate in future signaling and control systems. Let's see what's ahead of me. I think you would achieve it more on by the way. I see you progressing. I'm pretty sure you would nail it and it was pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for joining this board and sharing your insights with our audience. Thank you, Rahman. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you very much everyone. I believe everyone listening to this podcast has got something to take away from today's discussion. If you like this podcast, please listen, follow and share this podcast within your network. If you believe we should be sharing your story or someone within your network, there is a railway leader who should be here sharing his or her contribution to this industry. Contact me on
[email protected]. Thank you for your time today. See you next fortnight. Until then, stay safe and take care of yourself.
PodcastTranscript AI