Endurance in Worship Leadership: Navigating Burnout and Building Community

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Worship Server Podcast. My name's Blaze Nelson, and I'm with my co-host, Travis Swan. How you doing today, Travis? I'm good. My brain is full of things. Got a bunch of teaching coming up, but I'm glad to be here. Nice. Yeah, I feel similar, and I got a little bit of a cold, so I might be able to hear that in my voice. Yeah, we so appreciate you guys jumping on. We love to have these conversations before we get too far into this conversation. Neither Travis nor I are claiming to be experts. We're just two guys that love the local church, love worship, love playing music together, or playing music with our churches and singing together. And we're just looking to build community. So yeah, if you're along for the ride, it's good to have you. We have an online community on Discord. We'd love to have you jump in there and we'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic today or any of the topics that we've touched on or any topic that's on your heart. And if you find value or enjoy what we're doing, if you could give us a like or a follower or subscribe, whatever platform you're on, Travis and I are not emotionally invested in your feedback, although we would take it and listen to it. But man, it can help the show and tell your friends about us, and that would be a huge blessing. So without much further ado, what are we talking about today, Travis? We're gonna talk about the long game. So the long term health of a worship leader, you could describe it probably with words like grit, endurance, these are words I love. But there's the real reality of burnout. What does it look like to do this over the long haul, like maybe even decades? What could it look like to stay healthy and engaged and faithful? So I think some people say like, hey, the answer to burnout is do a lot less. But I don't know that that's necessarily always true. I'd like to unpack that a little bit because I think there's a why motivating factor that actually helps us do this for the long haul. And it may end up causing you to do more. But yeah, that's who we wanna talk about. Let's talk about the long game. Cool. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was part of a ministry, probably 10 years ago at this point, where they went through the commands of Jesus regularly with new people. And one of the commands, there's eight, nine or 10 of them, I don't remember exactly, but one of those top 10 commands of Jesus was to endure. And I always thought that was really wild because when I think about the things that Jesus really hit hard, I don't tend to think about endurance. But I think there is something special about, or there is something too, just being faithful and enduring. And I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to step away from music if that's what God's calling you to do. But there is something about enduring in the faith that I think is good to touch on today. This whole topic started because I was scrolling on YouTube and there's a channel called 60 CycleHum, which I sometimes watch. And both of those guys are talking about why they left their church. And before we give thoughts on that, I sent it off to Travis. And I don't think either of those guys were wrong or are bad people or are losers or anything like that. I just saw it as a really interesting topic to maybe address some of the issues that they were having, especially as worship leaders, as people who were leading a band, what, how we would step in and help people that were in their spot, and just kind of dig into that a little bit. Do you have anything you want to add there? Travis? - Yeah, I mean, listening to what they were talking about on their show, I appreciated their honesty. I mean, they were talking about real life frictions, long commutes to church in the morning, sleep deprivation, having young kids. Sometimes the weight of being like the only drummer or the only guitarist who's available every single week. That can be really, really hard. And I really appreciated that. And another thing that I really appreciated about it was, they had an observation that there's just something beautiful about ordinary people who get to go to church every single week and experience live music. - Yeah, yeah. - Like every single week. And we serve even just like on the most basic levels, just some, this really great art. And I liked that. I really, really liked that. So I just want to affirm those things. They had another brief point on, I think just the acknowledgement that holding a spot for too long can actually break a chain for younger people. I think there's a generational handoff that does matter. I don't know if that would be a good reason for quitting. Like maybe they said, but I do affirm that like that is actually a big deal too. Sometimes you do, you step out for the sake of the next generation. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's good. Cool. So I think that gives us a good framework to push forward. I guess maybe before we do that, have you ever experienced burnout Travis or gotten close? (laughing) - I feel a little awkward when people ask me that because I have not. I don't think I've even come close to it. I would describe parts of my vocational experience and even my volunteer experience before that as very, very trying sometimes. Quite difficult, maybe disillusioning. But I wouldn't put it in the category of, I don't even really know how, what's your definition of burnout? Maybe go to that. - Yeah, that's interesting. I think maybe walk it being so far gone that you don't even want to engage in what you're doing anymore. And maybe so far gone is an inappropriate term or an insensitive term to people who are experiencing burnout. I think there's probably some depression involved in that or disillusionment, I think is a really good term on that. But maybe feel unlike you can't go on, you can't continue and what you're doing. The spare is probably part of that. - Right. - I don't know, anything you would add there? - Yeah, probably. Yeah, I think people describe it, they describe hitting a wall. You just run into a wall and you just can't, you can't keep going. So by that description, no, I don't think I've ever experienced it. Like I said, I have had seasons where things were very difficult. But yeah, I don't know that I have. How about you? - I think I've gotten close. I think I've definitely experienced a lot of disillusionment, particularly coming out of high school into college, just feeling pretty lost in that time and just losing the vision of why we do what we do on a Sunday morning, why we keep coming and the specific lighting bolt for me was indescribable. It's like, man, if I had to sing indescribable one more time, I'm gonna lose it. - You lowered it first, right? - I was- - Sung's in the stratosphere. I was pretty close to walking away right then. I did not think we also had, this was in 2020, we had a, our church had two campuses at the time and through, we didn't know, we had a band member just kind of leave and they were a pretty critical player to what we were doing in our worship ministry. And I remember walking in and they had removed all their stuff and there was just like cables and stuff left over from, he was a drummer so the drums were gone and there was just like cables, hey, it looked like a skeleton almost. And I remember driving home and just like weeping and just feeling stuck. That was hard to push through, you know, we pushed through it, but yeah, I think I've definitely experienced those of just like, I don't wanna, I can't do this anymore. - Yes, yeah, I can't keep going through this again and again. 'Cause I think there's a reality that ministry's hard. - This is an easy thing that we've been called to. - Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there can be a lot of, I think there can be a lot of reasons why you get discouraged. I mean, honestly, it's Sunday after Sunday after Sunday it's not usually like one event that breaks you, you know, it's, yeah, it's 50 Sundays in a row where these challenges are just continuing to come at you and it's like a slow wearing down without a break, without a rest and that could be, there could be a lot of things that force that I guess, maybe the best word for that is attrition. - Sure. - You know, I think that can be very, very discouraging. That is what I acknowledge like, if you're discouraged, there's a lot of reason for hope, but there's also some reason for expecting this to be kind of normal. I mean, like Blaze was saying at the very beginning, there's so many things that Jesus calls us into where he says you're going to have to. endure. And there's going to be suffering. And there's hope in that, I think, as Paul said in Romans 5, suffering produces endurance and endurance, persists character and character produces hope. Like it's building something in you, but it's hard to see that in the middle of a really hard time. And I think maybe one of the things for musicians, I think just at heart, we're kind of idealists. You entered worship ministry with some sort of vision, right? You had a hope. You saw what it could be. And whether that's a great feel on the guitar, as you stand between the drums and the bassist or whatever, or you have this dream of people with their hands up or a room full of people or people singing so loud, you can't hear the drummer behind you. Or you're like, whatever it is, but the gap between the hopes and reality, it can be really discouraging. Because what you actually end up experiencing may not hit that ideal. Right? And what's the proper hope deferred makes the heart sick? I'm like, yep. Right? And I think that can really be troubling, especially for a artistic you know, musician type who probably is a relentless idealist. Yeah, that's that's pretty fascinating. We both engage in content recently, too, that talked about an acknowledgement of deficient realities that we live in. And there's a sect of people that think that that can be met through the metaverse or through technology. But I found that really fascinating. It really gripping because it was an acknowledgement of the reality of the world that we live in. And we do live in a broken place. And you want to hope and believe that church is going to be somehow be a sanctuary from that. And I think maybe a sanctuary from all of it, like church is going to be this perfect little heaven on earth. And I'm going to sit and get to play music with these people on perfect unity and perfect harmony. And there's not going to ever be any conflict and nobody's ever going to leave. And this is going to be great until Jesus comes. And that's just not the reality of what we live in. And it's it's not even the reality of what Jesus promised. I think. No, it's not. He said in this world, you will have trouble. Yeah, you just don't expect what's promised from the church. From the more that you're working with, the more I expect it to come from the church. Yeah. I mean, Paul said that X 20. He's with the Ephesian elders on the beach there. And they're all crying. And you know, sad because I know they're never going to see him again. There's a discouraging, saddening thing for the soul right there. And then he says, from among you are going to come, you know, ravenous wolves that will seek to devour the flock. So keep a watch on each other on yourselves and each other. Like that had to be a bit disorienting to hear like, oh, wow, he's not talking about the threat from the world. Yeah. I'm sorry. You're going to be all the brother next to me here going, are you it? Are you the wolf? Yeah. Man, you know, and that's that's another that's another potentially very discouraging thing is just team dynamics and you know, maybe you're at odds with the pastor. Maybe you're you can't make anybody happy in the church or you know, you got a lot of complaints or you know, another thing that can be really discouraging for people is just like there's not complaints, but there's also not compliments. It's just sort of crickets, you know, so all of these sort of like depend on so what was your ideal and is it met? Are you what are you looking for in terms of being built up, you know, or having compliments? You know, there's there's sort of like a root in all of that of what's the why behind this? Like, why are you doing what you're doing? Is it to accomplish this dream of the best guitar tone while you stand between the drummer and the bassist? Or to have the perfect applause or you know, not necessarily saying those guys in the video, we're talking about that and saying, you know, sorry, my son is playing an instrument downstairs and it's distracting me. Sounds like a violin. Okay. Great. If you hear that, music is happening in my house and it's great. So yeah, I mean, life doesn't necessarily meet expectations. Yeah. And I think there's two, there's two categories here. There's the how do you keep yourself from being burned out and then how do you keep your team from being burned out? Yeah, I think it'd be good to handle or to address both of those at length here. When I look at the 60 cycle hum guys, what I feel a lot more is that it's team dynamics how to like preserve your team versus like that, how to preserve yourself. Although I'm sure they're not the worship leaders. Yeah, yep, exactly. Yeah. And I'm sure some of this stuff could could have been helpful. But yeah, it felt it feels more like they land on the team side than like something going on deep in their own souls type of deal. Yeah. So I think first off, how do we how do we engage or why or how do we figure out our why what you're talking about? And I know both of us had watched the Simon Sinek, the golden circle, why video. And if you haven't seen that, that's a great leadership tool. But just a quick rundown. He's he basically says when you want to communicate something, start with the why a lot of people start with the what. And he had these great examples. I think Apple was involved. You know, Apple doesn't sell you. Oh, we have a phone. Doesn't sell you the what it says, we want to change your life. We want to make your life easier. And then they saw you a phone on top of that. Right. So yeah, you're selling the why is essentially and he does a phenomenal job. Go look that one up. And then come back and listen to us. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how do we yeah, how do we engage with the why and ourselves? Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think maybe it's the thing that separates like a trajectory from like Ryan and Steve were the guys in that video. One of the things I noticed is it felt like their motivation or their why was I get to play live music. And that's fun. Yeah. And maybe some of this, this is going to help the church. It's going to help out the team, you know, stuff like that. But I think like for me, as I look back, I've been leading worship regularly since I was about 14 years old. And pretty much 50 weeks a year, you know, full time. I was hired to do a full time vocationally in 2002. Did that for the next decade or so before I actually became a pastor and shifted my job description. But I think when I look at that, like where is the heart of what I was doing and the motivation? It's there was a point for me. I think we're at move from just music into something more than just music. And it was ministry. And the priorities shifted because as a musician, like honestly, worship music isn't all that interesting to play. You know, you can only play the one four five six patterns or however, whatever order you want to shift that into so many times and songs that are singable for a congregation, oftentimes, this aren't that interesting to play as a guitarist, you know. And so if you're doing it for musical fulfillment, like that's it, that's the wrong lie. And so being a musician came completely naturally to me, but actually like shifting my mindset to be more like a minister, you know, in the Ephesians 4 sense where you're released to do the work of ministry. I think that grew over time. And that's where I'm solidly sitting at this point. And it's just by the grace of God that that's given to me, you know, it's a second Corinthians 4 says, you know, we've been given this ministry by the mercy of God. And therefore we do not lose heart. And so for me, there's this gospel root in it that this has been handed to me and gifted to me by God. And my very life is a gift from God. And I've been given the message of that grace and that gospel and that mercy to a hurting and sick, entire world. And the vessel of music or the vehicle of music as a tool has been given to me as well. And I believe as Ephesians 4 says that God's gift to the church are people. And so he gifted me, you know, not me, fleshly me, but me, the musician minister of the gospel that all of us should be ministers of the gospel to bring the gospel to hurting people and my friends and my family. And I just there's a why in that that I wake up in the morning. I'm just excited to pick up that cross or whatever that looks like that day and not lose heart and step into ministry because it's by the grace of God. You know, and it just feels like it feels like an honor. Yeah, I think I think that motivation of the heart is so critical in this. It's like why? Why are we doing what we're doing? Is it, you know, we're in a small 100-person church, and we have two practices every week, and we have a Sunday morning rehearsal every week. Every week is like four or five hours of everybody's time, not including intentional practice. Is it worth it? And I'm not like prescribing that for you or your church. I'm just saying look at what you're doing and is it worth it. And if your motivation starts is all these other things, and let's be honest, I have all kinds of motivations that drive me all the time. Crap up. And yeah, the crap pot. And there are good motivations and there's bad motivations, and they're constantly at work with myself. We talked about that last time. Paul talking about the, I do the things I do not want to do, but to identify those and to make sure that your primary driving motivator is not something that will not be sustainable. And I believe that the only sustainable thing will be to if you are doing this to serve the church and to be what you just said, a musician and a minister to the congregation. Yeah, but I think we get wrapped up in, I want to launch my music career. I want to be the next force Frank. I want to be whatever I want the status. I want the recognition. I want to clean up my chops. I want friends. I want we do all of we do these things for all of these different motivators. And if we're not careful to identify why we're doing something, then I think it can just totally ship our cuss. We can just chip over our feet and face plant before we even take off off the block. Yeah, yeah. So the why is super important. Because I think that they're describing in the video, playing you 50 weeks a year or whatever, and then just being exhausted and just checking out and saying, I guess I'm done. I've played that schedule and loved it. The difference isn't necessarily the workload. Yeah. And I've done it with sick kids or pregnant wife or new baby at home or it just so many different things. And I think that the difference is like, what do you believe you're doing? Because when your why is clear and it's deep and it's rooting, I think hard work is actually energizing. Yeah, but I think if you lack a why and it's like eroded into nothing, like even a light schedule is too much. Like you play once a month, it's too much, right? So like I said, if your why is musical fulfillment as a worship leader, you're on thin ice. I think worship music is eventually just going to bore you. But if your why is like you're shepherding people into the presence of God and sharing the gospel, that simple music is a tool towards something so much bigger. And it's just gets exciting, I think. Yeah. And I think there's even some practical elements to band. Like I think there's it's easy to disciple younger people in band. I think it's great to be together multiple times a week with people from your church and in your community. And band practice is a great way to do that. We do highs and lows in middle of our band practice. You know, there's all kinds of elements here that you can bring a lot more. Yes, the music is important. Yes, it's important. To play precisely and excellently and shout for joy and all of those things. But we're doing, it's a ministry. We're doing something together. There's there's a forming that's happening every time we step into a room together. And to be aware of that into the I mean that that can that can be the motivator right there. Like man, I have this talent and I'm going to try to use this to minister to my bandmates. I'm going to try to use this to minister to my church. There's all kinds of benefits in that too. Outside of just like that, I'm going to be a share of the gospel. I think there's there's like health there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if if there's an even deeper layer like beneath the why as well. Like I think being motivated by that why is really, really good. But I think even then you can get caught up in the trap of like I'm doing work good work for God. Right. And I've got all of my ducks in a row in terms of my the theological understanding of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And yeah. And but I think you can still end up fatigued and have a crash and get spiritually depleted in that because maybe you're trying to lead people into God's presence without actually having been in God's presence yourself. Right. So I think even your why in the bottom line could be correct, but your soul is like running on fumes because you're working for God rather than with God, right? Yeah. Which comes down to identity and abiding and where is your value? Like if your value is in getting all your theological ducks in a row and your practice is right. You know. And that's what you're doing. That's what your value is like woven into. You're going to crash. It's going to be a trap because your sense of worth shouldn't be found in getting all of that right. You're not valuable because you play guitar. You're not valuable because you lead worship. You're not valuable because you're on stage. You're valuable because you've been shown mercy by God and he has loved you into that value. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that's you should be that should be like overflowing from you. Right. So even getting your why correct, I think it can be there can be a dangerous spot there. Yeah. Because if you have you if you have it perfect, but are not being first ministered to the gospel, then you're going to miss it. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about Psalm 90 and it talks there's a verse that says, "Satisfied me in the morning with your love." And Shane Bernard, let us song on that. They wrote it. Paul's Psalm 90. "Satisfied. Satisfied me." And just this idea of like men before I even wake up in the morning, Lord be be satisfying me. Like let me let me be satisfied in who you say I am. Let me be satisfied in my identity. I recently talked at church and talked about generosity and like I had this example where I had this big picture and a little dixie cup and I turned it turn the picture on and just let it over full the dixie cup. And I had it like on a little pyramid and it just overflowed the next ones and overflowed the next ones. And I think that's God's heart for us. And I think when we do ministry, we see ourselves as like dumping out our dixie cup and then like, "Okay, God, can you can you fill me up again?" Like I did the thing. I blessed that person next to me. I went to band practice on time. Help that homeless guy whatever, right? And we're I think we're constantly like looking to be filled up again when we've been depleted. But I think biblically, our spirituality is that we are like constantly in that flow and we need to position ourselves to be in that flow. And out of the overflow of that is where we should be serving. I think ideally. Yes. Yeah. So that's how do you how do you get into that that gratitude? I mean, there's practical ways. I think learning how to abide. I think, man, my family and I have been doing the sing-devotional on weekends from the worship initiative and just singing songs together. And there's something about just like opening our mouth and singing in the morning and just being reminded of truth. I think it takes intentional effort and work. I think our faith takes intentional effort and work and it takes intentional pruning. And I think we assume, oh, I can leave this thing and this thing will be alive. I think our faith is a lot more like a bonsai tree than an aloe vera plant. You know, an aloe vera plant. You could basically leave in the closet and it'll still be alive. But bonsai trees just take a lot of effort and work. And I think there's just something about us that we need tending careful tending to. Our faith needs careful tending to. So I mean, there's a lot of practicals daily quiet times singing, memorizing the word, being careful to listen to the voice of God, being careful to set aside. Just I'm going to use the word quiet. There might be a better word for that. But just being quiet in the presence of God, like, like sitting at his feet and engaging with him, communing with him. You know, I think all of those are pretty critical to that idea. Yeah. I wonder in that, like, if a lot of us have a poor theology of gratitude, like we treat it like the response to blessing, like, wait till something good happens and then I can thank God for it. Yeah, I can feed in, in Philippians 4, it says, don't be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God. But with thanksgiving, I actually left that out by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving is in the middle there. Let your requests be made known to God. And then the piece of God which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds and Christ Jesus. I think there's there's a principle in there of everything with thanksgiving before the blessing comes. That's where gratitude should be in God. And there's something that's, it's like transactional there where the anxious thing that you're a burden is given to God and you get the peace of God and it goes beyond understanding and it's going to guard your heart and your mind. And so there's like a regularity in that of you're doing that all the time when everything comes up in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving. We bring those things to God and then you can have the most heavy load and the world books that you would say you should have broken. But you have the peace of God which goes beyond that understanding you can't explain it but you're good. Yeah, even in like the most quintessential worship verse in the Bible in Colossians 3, 16, the message you're quite Christ well among you richly as you teach and you're monitoring one of the with Thanksgiving through Psalms, hymns and songs from the Spirit. It's like that Thanksgiving is what should be the center piece of our worship because without it, like before I grab a guitar it's like, man, I almost need a, and I don't want to get a hippie here but already think but it's like, man, as I'm grabbing my guitar as I'm strapping it on, I just need to like be practicing Thanksgiving, thankfulness and like, man, thank you Lord for who I am and you, who you say I am, the like the immense blessings that I have already as your child, as an inheritor of eternal life, as a co-err with Christ, it's mind-blowing what God has done for us. And if I'm leading from the spot of not being thankful then it's gonna burn out. But I think if you can attach things giving to your worship, man, how critical that is. Yeah. So in that, like you're not dismissing the suffering and the trial, right? Like, you can abide and you can be with God and yet you can still have hard times, like in the video we're reacting to, like insomnia is real. You know, getting to the sound check early while you have little tiny kids, like that can be brutal sometimes with a 45 minute. Yeah, especially with a 45 minute commute. Yeah. And I don't think necessarily that do less, should be the default, you know, burn out prescription. But take care of yourself is like, that's not a go-shuffle. You gotta take care of yourself. Right? So I think maybe what we've been talking about is the primary first of taking care of yourself and that's your spiritual health. You know, so you're living with God, you're praying, you're bringing all the things to Him, you know, you're reading scripture, you're repenting, you, all the things that aren't on the stage, you know. So when you get to the stage, you're leading from a spiritual health and overflow, like you're talking about, rather than being empty. And so you're empowered by the Holy Spirit, right? It's not like self-help patterns necessarily. It's your private life with God. That's your source. If that well is full, there's a lot you can do. If that well is dry, there's no optimization of your schedule or workload that's gonna fix that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think even acknowledging just the distance, what we opened up with with the idealism of what it should be in our hopes and we want this also to look great with our realities. The difference in that is often expressed in scripture as limitations, as psalms of lament. And I don't remember the, it's a third of the Psalms or psalms of lament or more. Tons and tons of like the proportional, proportional Lee in the Bible, songs of lament is a huge thing. And I think God invites us to recognize, oh, man, here's this ideal thing that's in my head. Here's the reality of where I'm at and bring that to him and lay that at his feet. And so we're not prescribing a happy, clappy faith. We're not prescribing shove it down. We're not prescribing plug your ears and la la la la la until it gets better. Like, be honest with God and in those, even in man, so lamentations, the book of lamentations is heart wrenching, but in the center of it, I will trust you. Great is your faithfulness. And the writer is is drawing from that well that he has. He's acknowledging the difference. He's saying, man, this, this sucks. This is not how it should be. And yet he's, he's firmly establishing his trust in who, in the character and nature of God, the who. So maybe it's not even the why it's the who we need to start with the who. And then move to the why who why take that time and snack. Yeah, though that he was really thinking spiritually when he came up with that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think also part of that who is the church, right? So like you can do all kinds of life hacks to fix your emotional health and things like that. But I saw a life-way study recently and they were talking about, you know, the positive and negative factors that contribute to pastors either staying in ministry or leaving ministry. Yeah. And the top factor that contributed to a pastor staying in ministry was meeting regularly and sharing struggles with a group of people, like with Bible study. That's the top factor. You know, and I think that God has given us a gift in the church with that. Right. So in he brews where we're not supposed to give up meeting together as summer in the habit of doing like there's this mutual encouragement that's supposed to be happening there. That is absolutely essential to our spiritual health. And if I am God's gift to the church as a person with the way that God has gifted me and pushed me and made me informed me, then your God's gift to the church as well, which means your God's gift to me, right. And where God's gift to one another in that God gives good gifts and we're supposed to be together and actually share those things. So there's our second who it's the church. Yeah. I recently read, I think I mentioned this and I might have even just mentioned this exact thing so you can stop me if I talked about this. But I recently read Dangerous Calling by Paul David trip and he was talking about that. How a lot of pastors see themselves as it's like crisis the head of the church and then there's the pastors and then there's the body. And so pastors are continually removing themselves from the ministry of the body of church. And I think worship leaders can do that too. I'm somehow separated. I've somehow arrived at somehow it wouldn't be appropriate for me to share my struggles. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to share my sin. And a lot of like pastors or worship leaders could get fired if they, you know, I don't know if that's the case or not, but it would feel like, man, if I share a shortcoming here, I'm going to get fired. I'm always my job. And so there's this dynamic where like the very thing that they're trying to lead and trying to bring for other people, they're just engaging with themselves in order to preserve themselves. And you're left out in the open and the reality is the biblical foundation that we have it is crisis the head of the church and everybody else is the body, including the pastors, including the worship leaders. And so if you are a worship leader and you think that you do not need the ministry of the body of the church, you are sorely mistaken. And you are missing out on what God has called you. You have missed out on a very critical safety net in your life. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, if you've been doing this as long as I have, you know, I heard somebody say this ministry is just a series of ungrieved losses. Continue. People leave friendships, fracture, you know, you got to be able to process that with someone who's safe. You know, I wouldn't necessarily air that on stage every week when you're leading worship or preaching. But do you have you have somebody you've got to be able to process that and that's a very real and normal experience that you've experienced. Yeah, if you're in the middle of that, that's that's ministry. That's life, baby. Yeah, it's hard. But yeah, just to normalize that like you're not alone. That's the point of the church. You're not alone. Yeah. And I think need to be reminded of that. I think worship leaders like we use the word endurance or grit, like sometimes that might you might have a predisposition to something like that. Like I actually think I kind of do. Yeah. My wife heard Shawn Mendes is in my blood songs, the pop song kind of dumb pop song. She's like, this is like your theme song, Travis, like, oh, yeah, sometimes I think of getting up, giving up, but I just can't do isn't in my blood. Like you're right. Yes. But I think part of endurance is, can you actually look at the past and not have it, you know, define you or hold on to it too much. You have to actually leave the loss and process it rather than just stuff it. And I think that's part of being healthy in this, you know, so you're going to endure well, you need to actually like do the work. Yeah. You're saying the hard work of grieving the loss. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk with someone about it who understands. answer is safe. You know, you don't have that. Go find it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also just any uncomfest sin or any sin that is has a hold on you. It's going to take you out. It will. If you don't, if you don't bring it to light, it's going to take you out. And you cannot do this long term. You can't do this really any amount of time, but you cannot do this long term and have uncomfest. Hidden sin that is I guarantee is we can have it in your life that you don't even know. I think I heard, I heard Tim Keller talk about that. He said, you basically have a joy, joy bucket. And that sin, you just punched a hole in the bottom of the bucket. And no matter what you do, it's just always always always emptying itself. Yep. All right. So I think we've got a pretty good framework there. So in order to persevere, in order to endure, in order to not hit burnout, start with the who start with who we're worshiping our identity and and Jesus start with the gospel, preach the gospel to yourself. Moving to the ministry of the church, confess your sin, be in community with other believers, be encouraged, be being built up, being built into. And then doing your why, this isn't just like a social club. This is a ministry that you're a part of and you're blessing the church, you're blessing. And it's good for your heart too, I think to sing. And that's this is all not to say, again, I think there's totally room to step out of worship ministry if you feel the need to. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's totally reasonable. I'm not saying like, man, we are in this until death do us part. There's seasons for things. But man, may it not be because we're at the at the end of our rope, maybe because God's calling us into something else. So we're doing something else. Well, it could just be your season of life too. Like I've had band members, you know, take a break because they had a new baby at home. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Like you didn't burn out. You just are acknowledging that you have a different season of life. You know, I, if you're in a season like that, like you're playing two services on five hours of sleep with a 45 minute commute, you know, with young kids at home. Yeah. Yeah. It just might not be aligned with your season of life. And that's not bad. Just call it for what it is. Yep. That's okay. Yeah, I took six months with each of our, each of our births with the twins and with the two-year-old now. So yeah, he just takes some time off and get there's times and seasons. And I think in all of two, it's not just like, you know, hike up your boots and keep pushing. Although I think that's totally reasonable. But like pursue spiritual health. Like we're not, you should not be just persevering for the sake of persevering. You should be persevering because you are abiding in the person of Jesus Christ. And in relationship with the person of Jesus Christ and in relationship with his body, not, not just like, oh, I'm going to grip, grip my way through this. And that might mean, you know, I've had times. I just came out of a time where it's like, okay, I need to like maybe not be leading a small group right in this season because life is getting a little crazy right now. You know, like, reevaluate that's totally fine. And yeah, it's okay to adjust. Yeah, anything else on kind of the individual, you yourself taking care of yourself in the process of this? I mean, there's just the basic physical health stuff. You know, if you're not sleeping eight hours a night every night, you know, you just try to eat well. You know, it's tough to do this long term if you just feel bloated all the time and gross because you're eating junk all the time and sitting around. You know, take a walk, work out. I'm actually, I think it was Kerry Newhoff was talking about burnout because he had a burnout season and he was saying that the realities, you don't need to manage your time as much as you need to manage your energy. You know, so physical energy, you can maximize that. And he said that there's like three to five hours a day when you're at your best. He called it like the green zone and then there's a yellow zone where you could kind of do bennial tasks and you're okay and there's a red zone where you just need probably to take an app. And so like my exhortation would be figure out when that green zone is, you know, and that's where your creative work, your high energy work needs to happen. If you're running on fumes, probably don't do your rehearsal during that time or, you know, your song planning or something like that. Yeah. So it's just like basic physical health stuff. You know, we learned that with Elijah and the Bible, you know, taking that, here's some food. Now maybe you'll be able to think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, start, start, yeah, start there. I think also just to be looking for other people to help carry the load for you. This is a long race and to run it alone is a very challenging thing. So be pouring into others. And I think we're going to move into that in this next topic. But be building into people and be looking for other leaders to come alongside you. Be looking for other people to you can delegate things to and you can help train. And you know, I think the church, the body is not. And this even touches on what they were saying of like, hey, we have these younger guys and we're like breaking the chain because we're still along or we're still around. How, how cool would it have been if like, hey, we're going to like really invest in these young guys and we're going to bring them up along or, hey, I'm burnt out in the season. And I'm like, you know, you said this before we hit recording. I'm going to steal it. So there you go. But you said, man, it may I be pouring into somebody else, not just be like empty. And that goes back into what we're talking about. So you're, you know, you're, you're being healthy. You're, you're centering your stuff in the right spot. And then you're also looking to be building into other people to come along side you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the end, if you, you know, zoom this out to the great commission, we're supposed to be making disciples, right, which is a, a multiplying effect. And I think I've seen leaders who kind of like hoarded the platform and they don't ever multiply and give that out to anybody else. But honestly, when I've given that away and see other people flourish in my place there, it I find fresh, fresh energy in that like it's inspiring. It's so much, so much fun to see. I love seeing a good youth band come together, you know, and then actually be able to lead worship in front of the whole church. Like that's so cool. And I just, I just was at a youth band practice last night. They're leading on Sunday. And I'm excited for them. And, and we just toward the end of practice is like getting on towards 10 p.m. And I wasn't tired at all because I was so excited for them. Sure. And I feel that way now, you know, I'm so excited. I get to lead worship next Sunday after that. And it's inspiring to me, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Also in that is probably just like do things that inspire creativity in you too. Yes. Yeah. There's a good principle. Yeah. Just feed that creative spark in your heart. Yeah. And I think a good summary of this all, this is from the worship initiative, but they have the three ends musician, minister and multiplier. And just to be focusing on those three things as you're thinking about your health of like, okay, are you musically capable of doing what you're called to do? Are you seeing this as a minister opportunity? Are you being minister to yourself? And then are you multiplying into somebody else? I found that framework really helpful. It's nice to find it. Yeah. You know, you got the elimination going on. Yeah, musician, minister and multipliers. That you said? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So musician came totally naturally to me at the beginning. Minister definitely grew over time. Multiplier. I don't know. I don't think it was instinctive necessarily, but once I've now that I've done it a bunch of times, like getting out of the way and enabling other people to shine, it's just so rewarding. Even within like my own team, enabling their ideas and their songs and their arrangements, it's just it's so life giving. I love that. Yep. That's great. Cool. While we should, if we should move into how to help your team avoid burnout, yes, just kind of give some some final thoughts there. Where do you start? Yeah. I mean, so what one way maybe one way to frame this is like the volunteer dynamic versus maybe the vocational dynamic or the calling dynamic, like as the leader. And so if you're framing, burning out and stepping back as you were just a volunteer, I think that's legitimate because I think there is part of you that you are competing with the rest of your life for your time, for your energy. I think for some volunteers that becomes more of like the fabric of their life rather than something that's sort of extra. I certainly experienced that before I transitioned into doing it full time. I don't think the shift from being a volunteer to making it vocational where I was leader necessarily made it easier. I honestly think my time investment has gotten more difficult with it. But it has clarified for me what it is. So like, you know, Jesus talks about the shepherd idea where one is the owner and one is the hired hand. You know, the hired hand tends to run away because they don't have as much invested. And I guess maybe as we think about that is like, can you have someone who's playing guitar? Like just an electric guitar player, they're not singing, they're not in front. You know, the playing riffs, playing rhythm. Can they feel like it's a calling? You know, and they're not just a volunteer. They're not just like putting extra into this, but it's actually like part of who I am sort of, you know. Is it possible for that? You do have to be the full-time vocational worship leader or at least the guy who's leading the band to really feel that? I think it is possible. That's where I started was just the guitarist. And just feeling this thing in my bones of like, yeah, man, there's something real here. You know, there's something really beautiful about what we're doing. I think that comes down to a lot of envisioning, a lot of communication of vision. And obviously that starts with yourself. But making sure that you're not just calling people to an activity. Again, it goes back to the why thing. You're calling them to a why and encouraging them to connect with the who. You know, and so if the why, if the what they're doing is just playing guitar on Sunday, then yeah, you know, that's that's probably not the last a long time. But if the what they're doing is blessing the church and fulfilling this calling that God has called each of us to his musicians, to play music to his glory, then all of a sudden that becomes a lot more sustainable. What are your thoughts on hired, hired guns, hired musicians? Yeah, I've I've aside from gig artists. Yeah, gig artists. I don't I don't like the idea personally. Um, I partly because we haven't our church has actually made it a point not to hire musicians and even not to hire tech staff as much. Uh, we have a few people on staff who do more administration, you know, somewhat techy type stuff. But every one of our sound people are volunteer. All of our musicians are volunteer. Our worship leaders are volunteer. And I think there's just there's a beauty in it. Um, I have a deep gratitude for all of those people and what they put in. I mean, our our worship leaders, um, they put in so much effort and money and time. It's just it's just incredible. You know, and so I don't know that I see the point of hiring a musician for church, you know, um, when you're asking everybody else in the church to step up and do their part as well. Um, I'm not a I'm not against it. I don't think I've like principled against it necessarily, but I've seen it work without having that. And I've seen people have just as much ownership. Um, and I think it would just sort of complicate things to be like, Hey, I'm paying you so you better get here, you know, um, so yeah, like I said, I'm not, I'm not really against it, but I've seen the church thrive without it. And, and I think there's something really cool about it. Yeah. I think I'd have a more principled stand against. Um, yeah, I think the why obviously is like you're in a small church and don't have the people, um, right. Or that's that that's the fact that yes, the money could be spent on so many other things. Yeah. I'm not going to play a pit drummer. I want to send a missionary somewhere overseas. Yep. Right. And I think I think even from just a team dynamic spot, I think you want, you want people there for the same reason. And if somebody's there because I'm I got paid to be here versus like, Hey, we're coming together to bless the church. Then I think that's just going to breed bad dynamics. I don't think it's like a sin issue or anything. I just, I think there's probably a better a better way to do it than to just hire this out. And man, what an opportunity to train people, what an opportunity to give the youth, the youth, your real practical skills that they can bless the church with that they can serve each other with. Um, I just think there's, there's there's a lot of opportunity there. And when it gets hired out, that just get flies right out the window. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the why I think also just I love Mike Tomlin. He's the he was the coach of the Steelers who knows where he is now. Um, but he always said that he wants volunteers and not hostages. Um, I think when I think about leading a group of volunteers, I really want to make sure that I'm giving checking in on them regularly and making sure that they're in a healthy spot. And then also giving grace and space where they need it. And so if somebody can't make it on Sunday, I try to be real open handed like, Hey, that's okay. Like go go do your thing. Go go be with your sick wife or go do whatever like we'll be fine. We'll we'll make it happen. And that that goes back to a lot of the, I think we've talked about the minimal viable product and making sure that like, I know I can lead a worship set with just an acoustic guitar. I know I can lead a worship set with an acoustic guitar and piano. I know I can lead a worship set with an electric guitar and a drummer. You know, like I know some minimal viable products. I have kind of set up and have tested. And so when I need to roll with the punches, it just allows me ideally to be real open handed with my volunteers would be like, Hey, yeah, go go take some time. It's okay. We'll we'll be okay. Yes. That yeah. Well, we'll keep trucking and there'll be a spot for you when you get back and then keep checking up on them. You know, um, like yeah, you're you're ministering to your team more so than anybody almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. So how do you motivate just thinking about motivating the why in a guitar player, for instance, or a drummer? You know, one of the things that one of the guys in the video said was that worship volunteering isn't life and death stuff. And that I think it's something like you shouldn't make it bigger than it is. And I'd sort of like to push back on that maybe a little bit. Because I think I think corporate worship is just it's a means of grace for the church. Like it's an amazing opportunity for someone to serve in. Right. It's not just live music that you know, it's good art that makes something beautiful and the weekly gathering. It's like you're facilitating God's people gathering singing the ultimate truth that shapes every aspect of life together. And you're using melody to implant that into people's experience. So their theology is then being repeated throughout the week as an earworm in their head. Yeah. Because of your guitar riff. Yeah. And they're they may have the hardest week of their life coming up. And that riff is the vehicle that brings that theological truth into their head. And they remember God's people singing while everything in their life is telling them to doubt this truth. It's I mean, that's about as life or death as you get in my opinion. Yeah. Right. So I just think there's a why in there that matters so much more than what they think as they're just talking about the low stakes framing of it's just like fun with my delay pedals. Like that's easy to walk away from. But when you frame it like this is life and death, look at what you get to do for the congregation while the world and the devil are pushing against them like crazy. Yeah. I think it comes down to your theology of worship and what your church's philosophy of worship is theology of worship. I think I've shared this before. I've been really taking a deep dive into that. And it's like, man, it's so important not just for me to have it, but for me to like pass this on and to try to inspire our people with the same thoughts. And yeah, all of that stuff that you just said is true. Do we know it? Do we know that like this is really important, that this is formational for people that music can facilitate these. And again, not experiences, but music like puts the truth of God on people's lips. And how important that is. And so, I mean, practical steps, I think make sure that your theology is formed well. Work on it, memorize verses. We're talking internally about potentially even having everybody who leaves worship at our church, read a couple of books and memorize 10 verses or something. Just so that we're all on the same page, we all know what we're doing. I'm also experimenting with doing monthly envisioning nights, training nights about the theology of worship, about what we're doing, the why of worship. So I think I don't know any other way. If you have another way, then that's great. I just keep putting it in front of people and keep like hammering them with it. And like, man, this is so important. And I think that will, we just need to be reminded of what we're doing. I know, do you have, how have you done that? I probably talk too much. So I always after soundcheck, I always get the word. Yes, or podcasts, Travis talks too much. That's all love of us. No, I gather the band together. And we always sit on the front of the stage and the front seats in the auditorium and and I pull up planning center and then just go through the songs one of time. Usually I'll either if I'm teaching or, you know, I've talked with one of the other pastors who's teaching, I know where the sermon is going. I have a sense of like where the church is at, you know, like potential new people who are coming. Sometimes I'll use that as a motivation. Hey, this family's coming and, you know, they're friends with these people. And I know, you know, their story a little bit. I'll tell a little bit of it. And I'm pretty sure they're coming on Sunday. So they're going to be in the in the room and and we can serve them this way and we can pray for their salvation. And so whatever the detail is, I end up sharing it and then someone makes a joke about how we should finally get to music at some point. And we pray, you know, but every week is different. And then Sunday morning kind of do the same thing. Circle the whole crew up and we talk through the whole morning. And it's not just the details, but it's, you know, what are we trying to have happened spiritually this morning, you know? So everybody from the kid who's pressing the next button and and pro presenter to the drummer are all hearing the same thing and praying together about it. You know, and I think, I think honestly, I think I could be more intentional with it. A lot of times it's just sort of off the cuff, like what I know of what's happening in the week. And we could probably be more intentional with how we discuss it. But I've been doing that for years and I think everybody just sort of expects it. The other worship leaders just kind of do the same thing now, talk through the whole thing and pray through it. Sometimes I will actually include the band in the planning process, actually a lot of time. Or like, hey, here's where here's a scripture passage. Here's where we're going. What do you guys think? Do you have any thoughts on songs and you know, it's on a high level like more theological conceptual rather than what's a cool song you've been enjoying cool riffs to, you know? So by the time they actually get the song set and we actually start playing through it, like they've been part of the whole process of building it. That's good. Yeah. I think just to put a bow on this, you should probably wrap up at some point here, but I think to realize that as worship leaders, we're in the people business, not the music business. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, we'll probably do a topic on how to manage volunteers and how to envision and all that stuff. How to do band practices. Some just high level stuff. I think just keep envisioning, keep working on your theology of music, make them feel heard and, you know, listen to them, listen to their needs, pray for them, be intentional in their lives. Do dinners together. You know, just keep, be a pastor to them. Be a shepherd, be a minister, be their friend. Treat them as commodities because that will breed a lot of ugly in your ministry if you treat people as commodities. Yeah. And they just, they're cogs in a machine and it's impersonal. Yeah. And I think you don't want to do that. I was even expressed in the, in the 60s cycle, I'm video, I think, I think those guys felt that and I think it's easy for worship leaders to make their people feel like that. Like they're just, they're just a cog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Well, maybe, maybe to wrap up and close this, I've been thinking about burnout and thinking about that struggle and I've just this image of Jesus in the Garden of Geseminis is what comes to mind. You know, he's fully God and he's fully man. He's carrying the unimaginable weight, not just the physical suffering he's about to have, but he's taking on the sin of the world. Yeah. Right. And he's, he's there asking his father, take this cup from me, you know, and the things that he's experiencing that moment, you know, he turns around, he finds his disciples asleep. And he's like, he couldn't stay awake with me just for one more hour like, you know, and so we're talking about sort of the gap between hope and reality and you, you get to solution, you talk about experiencing, you know, weariness and he's experiencing loneliness. But he's experienced all of it and then he went to the cross and then on the third day he rose from the dead. And I think of Hebrews 12 where it says before the joy set before him, he went to the cross. He endured the cross, right? Endurance. There's some grit there, the God who is crying out to his father and sweating drops of blood and agony, anticipating this moment. He with grit and endurance went to the cross, it says he's scorned, it's shame. And then he sat down at the right hand of the throne of God and he calls us to follow his path, right? The whole context of that is we're fixing our eyes on him as the pioneer of our faith. He's the pathfinder. He's the one who's setting out the race in front of us. And he says, now you throw off all the things that hinder you and the sin that entangles you and run the race that's marked out with perseverance. So you might have real discouragement and real trial, but keep in mind that Jesus did too. And he saw a joy on the other side of it. It's producing something in you. So Romans 5 says that suffering produces endurance. Endurance produces character and character produces hope. You have been saved into something. You have this ministry by the mercy of God and you shouldn't lose heart, but understand it in the midst of it. He did the heavy lifting. You know, his grace is sufficient for you. Lean in on him. His power is made perfect in your weakness. Look to Jesus. Look to Jesus and know that he has felt similar things to what you're feeling and yet he endured. And he offers to live in you so that you can endure. Amen. That's really good. That verse also ends with the and hope does not disappoint right? Yes. Is that the hope we have will not disappoint? You're missing the best part of it. Sorry. I'm always miss quoting Bible verses. Speaking of them. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, just and this is also really tightly related. I've been working on memorizing some verses and I've been working on first Timothy for 15 and 16 and I'm positive I'm not going to give it word for word. So Paul, your Bible's out and you can follow along. But just this idea Paul is writing this whole letter and at the end of them, he says, you know, pay attention and devote yourself to these things. He says, watch your life and doctrine closely because if you do, you will save both yourself and your ears. Persevere in them because if you do, you'll save both your self and your hairs. And I think just in this context, man, maybe watch our life in our doctrine. doctrine closely because I think it's easy to not. It's and I've been also reading in Deuteronomy and we read the laws that the kings are supposed to follow and what's amazing about those laws is that Solomon breaks every single one. Like to for tat breaks all of them and he was not watching his life in his doctrine closely. The wisest man in the world was not watching his life in his doctrine closely and just that emphasis on because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hairs. There's something in just persevering in that and like that persevering them. Like do these things work on them because there's a there's a saving element to that. Yeah. So yeah, Jesus went to the cross despite all of that discouragement and pain and the cross led to resurrection. So if you are having something press on you and you're feeling discouragement, I think maybe just ask this question, like what kind of resurrection is God wanting to birth in you through this? Like is the discouragement or whatever you're experiencing, not maybe the end. Maybe it's like Jesus who for the joy set before him endured. Maybe it's a doorway and it's something maybe a new thing in you where there's like a new motivation or new energy or something that actually comes from God and motivates you for what's next. I think again it was Carrie Newhoff was talking about his burnout and he said, if he hadn't gone through that and walked through it and seen what Jesus did in him in the midst of it, he would never have been prepared for what God was preparing him for in terms of increasing his influence, expanding his ministry, you know, to the degree that it did where he became, you know, worldwide known. It was the doorway to it. The cross leads to resurrection, lean in on that. Yeah. Yeah, and just again, when we're, when we're real practical and six months things might look different, we'll probably look different. And when I drove, was driving home, weeping because of that experience that I shared at the top six months it was different. And that was actually kind of the start of some really beautiful seasons that I'm still in the middle of. And yeah, hope. Keep Brian the horizon, hope. So yeah, it's probably good. Any other parting shots? No, I think that's all the guys up. Okay, cool. Well, thank you guys again so much for listening. Again, we really appreciate it. Man, if you're discouraged, encourage you to talk to your pastor, talk to your team. We Travis and I are also both available. We're again, we're not super interested in building an audience, but we want to build a community and we're doing that on Discord. It's the worshipserver.com/discord. If you are discouraged, I'd encourage you to reach out to us there. We'd love to engage with you and encourage you as best we can. And with all that, thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time. See you.